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Well done Nareek - a more balanced piece.
The above is by me, should it matter to anyone. PhilipC 20:19, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
It's not helpful to call editors that we disagree with vandals or call for them to be banned. There was quite a bit of potentially controversial material added recently; I suggest that we revert the article back to my toning down of the Butterworth edit, and then reintroduce the new material piece by piece so we can hash out specific problems rather than accepting or rejecting the changes wholesale.
If there are notable critics of Campbell, we should include them, but they need to be sourced. And if most critics like Campbell's writing, we should cite sources for that too, rather than asserting how good his writing is ourselves. Nareek 14:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
And while on the subject of "puff," maybe consider cleaning up some truly puffed up entries, like that for "Reggie Oliver," if you're so concerned. [unsigned]
Despite the accusations being thrown back and forth about hidden agendas, I think most of us here are just trying to edit an encyclopedia. Nareek 12:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I took unsigned's advice and tried to clean up Reggie Oliver--it was pretty bad. Take a look and see if it merits removing the tags. Nareek 16:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The original entry was horribly sycophantic and has been - finally! after much pathetic squabbling - sculptured into something more factual and objective. well done to Nareek and Hal Raglan for restoring some mature and rational balance.
If anyone wishes to validate the Campbell Vs Hutson contretemps they need only refer to Shaun Hutson entry. If anyone wishes to validate that the 'Shadow' quotes are 100% accurate and truthful then the magazine can be scanned and linked to in the article. Certain people DO court controversy - to argue that they do not is a rather sinister perversion of factual history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.188.194.184 ( talk) 15:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I have now added the factual correct and verifiable sources for the quotes in addition to mentioning that some fo tehse facts are corroborated by Shaun Hutson's own Wiki entry. NB. I note that Mr Hutson is quite happy for people to have added less than flattering comments about some aspects of his career but that in stark contrast Mr Campbell would appear to favour a Stalinist approach i.e. whereby he controls everything to ensure that no unflattering comments are added. Perhaps Mr Campbell would do better to amend his entry openly under his real name, and to balance the unflattering aspects of his past rather than aggressively deny them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.188.194.184 ( talk) 16:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
First you say that the SHADOW quotes need provenancing, then you come up with another objection when the are. Meanwhile you are perfectly happy to allow Ramsey Campbell's reference to a letter he received from an Arkham editor which you have not seen to remain unchallenged, even though that is over forty years old. But putting that aside for one moment, the references to the SHADOW exchanges between Campbell and Keith Walker, who was the BFS founder, are perfectly legitimate given the fact that a) they involve RC and KW, b) they reference Lovecraft (who is already mentioned in the article), and c) they can be proved and sourced. I am therefore concerned at your attempts to ensure that Lovecraft is only allowed to be mentioned if it flatters Ramsey Campbell (who you clearly admire). If RC is on record as criticising Lovecraft, claiming to be a better writer than Lovecraft was himself, it is very great importance, and is not the trivial or unimportant issue you seek to portray it as. By all means tinker with the wording to make it neutral, but less of the Orwellian censorship please! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.214.46.29 ( talk) 19:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Do your worst "Deor". This is a ridiculous storm in a teacup. The bottom line is that you oppose references to RC's views on Lovecraft if they don't flatter RC, but that you happily facilitate them when they do. For that reason your position is unjust. You can quote Wikipedia goobledeegook all you like: I am very well read and I am not unintelligent. The comments re RC's SHADOW boasts are wholly valid and you cannot be much of an impartial observer let alone a researcher if you can't see that. The SHADOW quotes ARE sourced and truthful; whether or not you think they are immaterial is neither here nor there. However, bearing in mind that reference is made to Lovecraft in the opening sentences of the paragraph, and that the SHADOW quotations come for the same point in history and are wholly relevant to Campbell's first book, your bizarre quest to ensure they are erased from history seems little more than biased sychophancy. So, by all means, please do attempt to block me from Wikipedia; clearly I pose a monstrous threat to civilisation as we know it, what with my heinous attempts to inject a healthy editorial balance into articles which are puffed or inaccurate. But before you do, please have a look at the work I have done on articles discussing ghost stories, Dennis Price, Robert Aickman and Joan Aiken, just to satisfy yourself than I pose a greater threat to Wikipedia peace than Russian or Chinese attempts to bring the internet down. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.200.156.31 ( talk) 21:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the Shadow citation is that 1969 is not when he was writing his early work that was heavily indebted to Lovecraft--that was five years earlier, which is a long time in that stage of a person's life. It would fit in better with the passage about Demons in Daylight being consciously written to distinguish himself from Lovecraft--I believe he writes about this in the introduction to that book. Nareek 14:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
My copy of Demons by Daylight has no introduction, but in "Chasing the Unknown" (in Cold Print) Campbell writes: "Now began my struggle to leave Lovecraft behind and write like myself - a struggle that caused me to write an article, 'Lovecraft in Retrospect', condemning his work outright (when what I was really condemning was my own dependence on him)." I'm not sure if this is the same as the Shadows article, so I've put in a couple of quotes where he praises Lovecraft and his influence. Hope that's helpful. PhilipC 18:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The article 'Lovecraft In Retrospect' is indeed the one concerned. The piece first appeared in SHADOW in 1969 [Issue No. 8]and prompted Keith Walker (along with several others) to write in to complain about Campbell's immorality in 'stab[bing]' Lovecraft in the back [in Issue No. 9]. Although SHADOW was only a fanzine it did feature the likes of Alan Moore, Jack Adrian and Eddy Bertin as contributors, not to mention various useful bibliographical pieces on (for example) William Hope Hodgson, which later paved the way for larger and better known studies. (The editor David Sutton and the contributors Keith Walker and Ramsey Campbell all played a part in the subsequent formation of the British Fantasy Society.) Campbell has subsequently tried to play down his arrogant and brash criticisms of Lovecraft but it is obvious from the SHADOW letters page that the piece was originally perceived as a savage condemnation of the man who had originally inspired him. Another contributor (David Riley) wrote that Lovecraft's work "...cannot be dismissed the way Campbell does." Eddy Bertin complained: "Campbell is going too far when he puts down almost all HPL's work." (This was in response to Campbell's arguing that "whatever impression he [Lovecraft] left on the genre has faded, except as preserved by a few admirers...") Another letter writer accused Campbell of 'despising' Lovecraft. Etc etc. So whatever Campbell may argue now, and no matter how disingenuously, the fact remains that he *did* savagely attack Lovecraft at the time. If Campbell really was only condemning his own reliance upon HPL rather than attacking HPL as a writer, then not only did he fail to make that clear, but he would appear to have misrembered the actual facts as documented at the time.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.207.172.68 ( talk) 13:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I have - see above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.207.172.68 ( talk) 13:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Good grief, what is your problem? Have you expended anywhere near as much energy validating Campbell's various self-praiseworthy claims? No, you have not. There is no simple handy-sized quote where Campbell says "I am a better writer than Lovecraft". However, there is a very brash and arrogant essay in which he explains at great length why Lovecraft was such a bad writer and why he himself could never possibly make the same mistakes. Indeed, the *whole* article is a vilification of Lovecraft. What is so difficult to understand about that? Then, in the subsequent issue, everybody - and I mean everybody, every single letter writing contributor - pours scorn on Campbell for his dismissive arrogance, which in turn led to Campbell sending in a very long letter to the next issue after that, attacking every one of the letter writing contributors. It's like something out of a genre farce: Campbell manages to get his first book published by copying Lovecraft's style, then he publishes a withering attack on HPL whilst helpfully explaining where HPL went wrong, only to be accused of stabbing his idol in the back by several third parties, whereupon he (Campbell) then accuses others of conducting a hate campaign against him! Oh, the irony of it. Campbell conducts a hate campaign against HPL but the complains when anybody questions his morals. Really, Deor, either you are very cautious or else harbour a far too rosy picture of Mr Campbell. Undoubtedly the truth is somewhere between his praise for and his criticisms of HPL, but from a point of historical accuracy, we - the readers of Wiki - need to know about both perspectives to form a valid judgment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.200.40.124 ( talk) 15:40, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
No one has a 'seething hatred' of Campbell. To dismiss someone's opinion with such terms is a classic example of political distortion, especially as the prime intention in all of this has been to create an objective, balanced article, as opposed the sycophantic one which self-confessed Campbell fans like Hal Raglan would prefer. Indeed, Mr Raglan is something of a hypocrite. Were anyone to describe Campbell's criticism of Lovecraft as a 'seething hatred' he would waste little time in branding such a claim as a non-factual POV. If Mr Raglan wishes to familiarise himself with any one of Campbell's numerous claims of self-worth then he need only open his eyes: they are extremely plentiful both in print and elsewhere. Indeed, to use 'indeed' again, one need only glance at the various issues of SHADOW to discover that in John Ramsey Campbell we do not have a precocious talent but rather an incredibly outrageous example of someone holding himself in unwarrantably high regard. For example, in a review of a Lovecraftian anthology, he starts by boldly stating that it would be wrong of him to review his own Lovecraftian contribution to the volume, but then proceeds to dedicate the entire first paragraph - by far the longest in the piece - to doing just that. So unintentionally amusing is all of this that it can only be a matter of time before a more able writer uses Campbell as the template for a novel...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.143.3.69 ( talk) 16:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Dracula's Daughter and The Wolfman are also available under the name E. K. Leyton, along with The Creature from the Black Lagoon, which Campbell apparently didn't write. What does this mean, and does it matter? PhilipC ( talk) 17:25, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
The awards sections lists Ancient Images as a winner of the Bram Stoker novel (1989). This is in disagreement with the Wikipedia page for the award, and the HWA's list of awards http://horror.org/awards/stokerwinnom.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2CEC:2B20:E47A:9ECD:C4E3:3F27 ( talk) 21:57, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
It's actually this, which I think bore the Stoker name for a while: http://thedraculasociety.org.uk/the-children-of-the-night-award.html
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![]() | Severn Valley (Cthulhu Mythos) was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 16 September 2020 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Ramsey Campbell. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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Well done Nareek - a more balanced piece.
The above is by me, should it matter to anyone. PhilipC 20:19, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
It's not helpful to call editors that we disagree with vandals or call for them to be banned. There was quite a bit of potentially controversial material added recently; I suggest that we revert the article back to my toning down of the Butterworth edit, and then reintroduce the new material piece by piece so we can hash out specific problems rather than accepting or rejecting the changes wholesale.
If there are notable critics of Campbell, we should include them, but they need to be sourced. And if most critics like Campbell's writing, we should cite sources for that too, rather than asserting how good his writing is ourselves. Nareek 14:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
And while on the subject of "puff," maybe consider cleaning up some truly puffed up entries, like that for "Reggie Oliver," if you're so concerned. [unsigned]
Despite the accusations being thrown back and forth about hidden agendas, I think most of us here are just trying to edit an encyclopedia. Nareek 12:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
I took unsigned's advice and tried to clean up Reggie Oliver--it was pretty bad. Take a look and see if it merits removing the tags. Nareek 16:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The original entry was horribly sycophantic and has been - finally! after much pathetic squabbling - sculptured into something more factual and objective. well done to Nareek and Hal Raglan for restoring some mature and rational balance.
If anyone wishes to validate the Campbell Vs Hutson contretemps they need only refer to Shaun Hutson entry. If anyone wishes to validate that the 'Shadow' quotes are 100% accurate and truthful then the magazine can be scanned and linked to in the article. Certain people DO court controversy - to argue that they do not is a rather sinister perversion of factual history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.188.194.184 ( talk) 15:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I have now added the factual correct and verifiable sources for the quotes in addition to mentioning that some fo tehse facts are corroborated by Shaun Hutson's own Wiki entry. NB. I note that Mr Hutson is quite happy for people to have added less than flattering comments about some aspects of his career but that in stark contrast Mr Campbell would appear to favour a Stalinist approach i.e. whereby he controls everything to ensure that no unflattering comments are added. Perhaps Mr Campbell would do better to amend his entry openly under his real name, and to balance the unflattering aspects of his past rather than aggressively deny them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.188.194.184 ( talk) 16:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
First you say that the SHADOW quotes need provenancing, then you come up with another objection when the are. Meanwhile you are perfectly happy to allow Ramsey Campbell's reference to a letter he received from an Arkham editor which you have not seen to remain unchallenged, even though that is over forty years old. But putting that aside for one moment, the references to the SHADOW exchanges between Campbell and Keith Walker, who was the BFS founder, are perfectly legitimate given the fact that a) they involve RC and KW, b) they reference Lovecraft (who is already mentioned in the article), and c) they can be proved and sourced. I am therefore concerned at your attempts to ensure that Lovecraft is only allowed to be mentioned if it flatters Ramsey Campbell (who you clearly admire). If RC is on record as criticising Lovecraft, claiming to be a better writer than Lovecraft was himself, it is very great importance, and is not the trivial or unimportant issue you seek to portray it as. By all means tinker with the wording to make it neutral, but less of the Orwellian censorship please! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.214.46.29 ( talk) 19:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Do your worst "Deor". This is a ridiculous storm in a teacup. The bottom line is that you oppose references to RC's views on Lovecraft if they don't flatter RC, but that you happily facilitate them when they do. For that reason your position is unjust. You can quote Wikipedia goobledeegook all you like: I am very well read and I am not unintelligent. The comments re RC's SHADOW boasts are wholly valid and you cannot be much of an impartial observer let alone a researcher if you can't see that. The SHADOW quotes ARE sourced and truthful; whether or not you think they are immaterial is neither here nor there. However, bearing in mind that reference is made to Lovecraft in the opening sentences of the paragraph, and that the SHADOW quotations come for the same point in history and are wholly relevant to Campbell's first book, your bizarre quest to ensure they are erased from history seems little more than biased sychophancy. So, by all means, please do attempt to block me from Wikipedia; clearly I pose a monstrous threat to civilisation as we know it, what with my heinous attempts to inject a healthy editorial balance into articles which are puffed or inaccurate. But before you do, please have a look at the work I have done on articles discussing ghost stories, Dennis Price, Robert Aickman and Joan Aiken, just to satisfy yourself than I pose a greater threat to Wikipedia peace than Russian or Chinese attempts to bring the internet down. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.200.156.31 ( talk) 21:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the Shadow citation is that 1969 is not when he was writing his early work that was heavily indebted to Lovecraft--that was five years earlier, which is a long time in that stage of a person's life. It would fit in better with the passage about Demons in Daylight being consciously written to distinguish himself from Lovecraft--I believe he writes about this in the introduction to that book. Nareek 14:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
My copy of Demons by Daylight has no introduction, but in "Chasing the Unknown" (in Cold Print) Campbell writes: "Now began my struggle to leave Lovecraft behind and write like myself - a struggle that caused me to write an article, 'Lovecraft in Retrospect', condemning his work outright (when what I was really condemning was my own dependence on him)." I'm not sure if this is the same as the Shadows article, so I've put in a couple of quotes where he praises Lovecraft and his influence. Hope that's helpful. PhilipC 18:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The article 'Lovecraft In Retrospect' is indeed the one concerned. The piece first appeared in SHADOW in 1969 [Issue No. 8]and prompted Keith Walker (along with several others) to write in to complain about Campbell's immorality in 'stab[bing]' Lovecraft in the back [in Issue No. 9]. Although SHADOW was only a fanzine it did feature the likes of Alan Moore, Jack Adrian and Eddy Bertin as contributors, not to mention various useful bibliographical pieces on (for example) William Hope Hodgson, which later paved the way for larger and better known studies. (The editor David Sutton and the contributors Keith Walker and Ramsey Campbell all played a part in the subsequent formation of the British Fantasy Society.) Campbell has subsequently tried to play down his arrogant and brash criticisms of Lovecraft but it is obvious from the SHADOW letters page that the piece was originally perceived as a savage condemnation of the man who had originally inspired him. Another contributor (David Riley) wrote that Lovecraft's work "...cannot be dismissed the way Campbell does." Eddy Bertin complained: "Campbell is going too far when he puts down almost all HPL's work." (This was in response to Campbell's arguing that "whatever impression he [Lovecraft] left on the genre has faded, except as preserved by a few admirers...") Another letter writer accused Campbell of 'despising' Lovecraft. Etc etc. So whatever Campbell may argue now, and no matter how disingenuously, the fact remains that he *did* savagely attack Lovecraft at the time. If Campbell really was only condemning his own reliance upon HPL rather than attacking HPL as a writer, then not only did he fail to make that clear, but he would appear to have misrembered the actual facts as documented at the time.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.207.172.68 ( talk) 13:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I have - see above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.207.172.68 ( talk) 13:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Good grief, what is your problem? Have you expended anywhere near as much energy validating Campbell's various self-praiseworthy claims? No, you have not. There is no simple handy-sized quote where Campbell says "I am a better writer than Lovecraft". However, there is a very brash and arrogant essay in which he explains at great length why Lovecraft was such a bad writer and why he himself could never possibly make the same mistakes. Indeed, the *whole* article is a vilification of Lovecraft. What is so difficult to understand about that? Then, in the subsequent issue, everybody - and I mean everybody, every single letter writing contributor - pours scorn on Campbell for his dismissive arrogance, which in turn led to Campbell sending in a very long letter to the next issue after that, attacking every one of the letter writing contributors. It's like something out of a genre farce: Campbell manages to get his first book published by copying Lovecraft's style, then he publishes a withering attack on HPL whilst helpfully explaining where HPL went wrong, only to be accused of stabbing his idol in the back by several third parties, whereupon he (Campbell) then accuses others of conducting a hate campaign against him! Oh, the irony of it. Campbell conducts a hate campaign against HPL but the complains when anybody questions his morals. Really, Deor, either you are very cautious or else harbour a far too rosy picture of Mr Campbell. Undoubtedly the truth is somewhere between his praise for and his criticisms of HPL, but from a point of historical accuracy, we - the readers of Wiki - need to know about both perspectives to form a valid judgment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.200.40.124 ( talk) 15:40, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
No one has a 'seething hatred' of Campbell. To dismiss someone's opinion with such terms is a classic example of political distortion, especially as the prime intention in all of this has been to create an objective, balanced article, as opposed the sycophantic one which self-confessed Campbell fans like Hal Raglan would prefer. Indeed, Mr Raglan is something of a hypocrite. Were anyone to describe Campbell's criticism of Lovecraft as a 'seething hatred' he would waste little time in branding such a claim as a non-factual POV. If Mr Raglan wishes to familiarise himself with any one of Campbell's numerous claims of self-worth then he need only open his eyes: they are extremely plentiful both in print and elsewhere. Indeed, to use 'indeed' again, one need only glance at the various issues of SHADOW to discover that in John Ramsey Campbell we do not have a precocious talent but rather an incredibly outrageous example of someone holding himself in unwarrantably high regard. For example, in a review of a Lovecraftian anthology, he starts by boldly stating that it would be wrong of him to review his own Lovecraftian contribution to the volume, but then proceeds to dedicate the entire first paragraph - by far the longest in the piece - to doing just that. So unintentionally amusing is all of this that it can only be a matter of time before a more able writer uses Campbell as the template for a novel...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.143.3.69 ( talk) 16:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Dracula's Daughter and The Wolfman are also available under the name E. K. Leyton, along with The Creature from the Black Lagoon, which Campbell apparently didn't write. What does this mean, and does it matter? PhilipC ( talk) 17:25, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
The awards sections lists Ancient Images as a winner of the Bram Stoker novel (1989). This is in disagreement with the Wikipedia page for the award, and the HWA's list of awards http://horror.org/awards/stokerwinnom.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2CEC:2B20:E47A:9ECD:C4E3:3F27 ( talk) 21:57, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
It's actually this, which I think bore the Stoker name for a while: http://thedraculasociety.org.uk/the-children-of-the-night-award.html
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