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The result of the move request was: No move. The nominator has withdrawn the requested move. Cúchullain t/ c 13:24, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
Ramsay Bolton →
Ramsay Snow – Per
WP:NPOVTITLE. Within the world of A Song of Ice and Fire, Ramsay's legitimization document is itself controversial, as it was issued by a king who is himself a bastard born of incest between the queen consort and her brother, a King's Guard sworn to celibacy. Probably a majority of characters in both the books and show reject the authority of his legitimization documentation, and in the show his and his father's betrayal of the crown, and his own subsequent betrayal of his father, means that probably no one would call him "Bolton" except perhaps as a result of sloppy screenwriting. The only people who call him "Bolton" in the books are game-players who know Tommen is not a legitimate monarch but don't care, and people like Theon who are scared to death that he will torture them; since he's a fictional character there's no reason for us to be afraid of him.
WP:COMMONNAME and the recognizability criterion do not really apply, since both are in common use in real-world secondary sources and are equally recognizable/meaningful for anyone familiar with the story.
Hijiri 88 (
聖
やや)
07:04, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
The basis for your argument seems very in-universe and OR to me; as this is a real-world encyclopedia, WP:COMMONNAME certainly applies and the name of the article should reflect the name by which the character is most commonly/popularly known in the real world. I know you feel strongly in general that the books are the primary topic for ASOIAF (and I don't disagree), but the popularity of the show has broadened its impact and certainly affected its mainstream perception. I don't know what the common name is at this point, but we shouldn't be using our interpretation of the storyline to determine it.— TAnthony Talk 22:49, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources.Not sure why your snarky comment is suggesting that I don't understand it, since it's exactly what I'm saying. Look to the sources. Whatever else you're arguing about legitimization or Tommen or whatever is irrelevant. BTW, how are you classifying some of the search results as "in-universe, unencyclopedic"? I'm trying to make sense of the results. Also, I'm wondering if you would create an article called Asha Greyjoy or Yara Greyjoy? This seems like a perfect example of books vs TV that could shed some light here.— TAnthony Talk 00:15, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
References
When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.In this case, all the sources you list were written by and for people who would have had no problem recognizing "Ramsay Snow". The primary sources (the books and show) have a far larger readership/viewership than any one secondary source, or even all secondary sources combined, and use the two names interchangeably, so a search of secondary sources cannot demonstrate that one name is overwhelmingly more common or that the other is generally unrecognizeable. The primary sources also prefer "Ramsay Snow" and are clear on "Ramsay Bolton" being technically incorrect. Heck, the last episode in which he appeared had a title that explicitly referred to him as a Snow and not a Bolton. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 09:44, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Ramsay Bolton. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 00:12, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No move. The nominator has withdrawn the requested move. Cúchullain t/ c 13:24, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
Ramsay Bolton →
Ramsay Snow – Per
WP:NPOVTITLE. Within the world of A Song of Ice and Fire, Ramsay's legitimization document is itself controversial, as it was issued by a king who is himself a bastard born of incest between the queen consort and her brother, a King's Guard sworn to celibacy. Probably a majority of characters in both the books and show reject the authority of his legitimization documentation, and in the show his and his father's betrayal of the crown, and his own subsequent betrayal of his father, means that probably no one would call him "Bolton" except perhaps as a result of sloppy screenwriting. The only people who call him "Bolton" in the books are game-players who know Tommen is not a legitimate monarch but don't care, and people like Theon who are scared to death that he will torture them; since he's a fictional character there's no reason for us to be afraid of him.
WP:COMMONNAME and the recognizability criterion do not really apply, since both are in common use in real-world secondary sources and are equally recognizable/meaningful for anyone familiar with the story.
Hijiri 88 (
聖
やや)
07:04, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
The basis for your argument seems very in-universe and OR to me; as this is a real-world encyclopedia, WP:COMMONNAME certainly applies and the name of the article should reflect the name by which the character is most commonly/popularly known in the real world. I know you feel strongly in general that the books are the primary topic for ASOIAF (and I don't disagree), but the popularity of the show has broadened its impact and certainly affected its mainstream perception. I don't know what the common name is at this point, but we shouldn't be using our interpretation of the storyline to determine it.— TAnthony Talk 22:49, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources.Not sure why your snarky comment is suggesting that I don't understand it, since it's exactly what I'm saying. Look to the sources. Whatever else you're arguing about legitimization or Tommen or whatever is irrelevant. BTW, how are you classifying some of the search results as "in-universe, unencyclopedic"? I'm trying to make sense of the results. Also, I'm wondering if you would create an article called Asha Greyjoy or Yara Greyjoy? This seems like a perfect example of books vs TV that could shed some light here.— TAnthony Talk 00:15, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
References
When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.In this case, all the sources you list were written by and for people who would have had no problem recognizing "Ramsay Snow". The primary sources (the books and show) have a far larger readership/viewership than any one secondary source, or even all secondary sources combined, and use the two names interchangeably, so a search of secondary sources cannot demonstrate that one name is overwhelmingly more common or that the other is generally unrecognizeable. The primary sources also prefer "Ramsay Snow" and are clear on "Ramsay Bolton" being technically incorrect. Heck, the last episode in which he appeared had a title that explicitly referred to him as a Snow and not a Bolton. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 09:44, 28 July 2017 (UTC)