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This is a very obscure comment (and the syntax is poor and confusing). What exactly did he achieve in this field?
Walter Scott, in The Abbott, mentions Lullius' work with quicksilver. Is there information about this?
"In the DC comic book series The Sandman, one of the characters, a writer named Richard Madoc, puts forth the idea of writing a story about Paracelsus and Raymond Lulli being the same person. This is, in real life, highly unlikely, given that they lived a century or more apart."
I suggest that this is perhaps a joke in the comic book series. Celsus / Paracelsus (an assumed name - Para / Celsus) as a parallel to Para / Lull - hence, merely a pun!
There are a whole load of variant spellings for this chap. Would definitely need redirect links for the most common ones. I've found at least Raymond Lull and Ramon Lull, and I know there are a long list more.
I'm going to add redirect pages - Raymund Lull and Raymond Lulli Cimon avaro
The link to the Ramon Llull Database, University of Barcelona appears dead. Does anyone have a new one? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:36, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)
The article seems to suggest that other attributions of books to Llull are dubious, but I see consistently on the net (including in es:Arabista, which I am translating) unhesitating attribution to him of the Book of the Gentile and the Three Wise Men (Llibre del gentil e dels tres savis). I see no reason to doubt these and am adding it to the article. There seems general agreement it is a major work (I have not read it). -- Jmabel | Talk 04:36, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)
After reading as possible about Ramon Llull (without spending a fortune), I see no reason to doubt he wrote this book. I'd like to point out though, that the Alchemical works often attributed to Llull were more likely (again, due to research by Anthony Banner - I am NOT Anthony Banner by the way) to be written by someone in London 16 years after Llull's death using his name as Author. It also should be noted that even with his mysticism, and quite revolutionary works, Alchemy still seems to contradict his principles, his love of God and his beliefs. - Unamed Llull enthusiast
I noticed recently that Category:Spanish philosophers was changed to the non-existent Category:European philosophers. Unfortunately, the latter doesn't exist, so I have removed. it. I presume that the reason for the removal of Category:Spanish philosophers was the anachronism of using the term "Spanish" to refer to a Catalan of this period, a point well taken in my view. That category in general seems a bit dubious, since it includes Maimonides and Averroes as well, not exactly Spaniards. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:46, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
Just for the record, the proper "nationality" if the word can be applied would be "Aragonese", from the then existing Kingdom of Aragon-- Juansempere ( talk) 19:03, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Despite appearances in the image, Llull is not smoking a cigarette. Tobacco was introduced to Europe from the New World in the 15th century. The "wisp of smoke" is in fact a long, narrow cartoon word bubble. (anon, March 19, 2005)
The words are legible: Lux mea est ipse Dominus: "My light is Lord Himself".
Does anyone know where this image came from? Mjhrynick 22:01, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I seem to remember he played a pretty big role in the history of the art of memory. No mention of that in the current article, though. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Lull influenced Giordano Bruno big time. Bruno mixed Lull's system with that of classical mnemonics, and used it not just for memorizing words and concepts, but also as a way of representing the structure of reality and acquiting 'higher knowledge'. JP
FWIW you can think of Llull's whole art as a mnemonic device. It's kind of a misconception that it's a tool for generating knowledge because the terms are already set and assumptions are built in. It's a mnemonic system to aid the process of invention, but does still require interpretation. Happy to add cites in the near future, but Yates and Eco come to mind off-hand. This thread doesn't look like it's in a hurry :) -- Rhododendrites ( talk) 22:54, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
"He had an epiphany..." is incorrect. Contrary to current casual usage, an epiphany is the appearance in the natural world of a being from an unnatural world. Llull became obsessed with ascetic religion after a period of sensual pleasure. What turned him was a glimpse of his girlfriend's cancerous breast. If no one objects, I will add this information to the article. Lestrade 13:54, 10 October 2005 (UTC)Lestrade
I think it's only fair to mention here that what also drew Ramon to pursue faith, was having 5 visions of Christ crucified, which I believe would be stated in his autobiography and in Anthony Banners' book "Dr. Illuminatus". Though this is not to contradict the above account as I believe that had an impact on Llull as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.249.57.48 ( talk) 11:51, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello! The above user said "5 times," but the Wiki shows 6 visions having occurred. I went and consulted Vita Coaetanea (his auto-biography), in which it is written: "Jesus Christ, in his great mercy, chose to visit me five times on the cross..." For this reason I will now change the wiki page to reflect this. Good day! TheLoneDeranger ( talk) 05:03, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Franciscans´ work is frecuently considered apart from their "franciscanism". This is a huge mistake. If we really want to understand their thinking we have to include their "change of route" in their complete lives. Starting at the point that everything that was so far considered -only- as cause and effect changes. Pax et Bonum! —This unsigned comment was added by Maria Luisa ( talk • contribs) 18 March 2006.
Seems highly POV to me. If anyone would be willing to rewrite it, it'd be much appreciated. DoctorWorm7 01:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I've added his The Book of the Order of Chivarly to the list, but this is a rather influential work. Perhaps expansion on his knighthood and chivalric ideals in this article would be a nice addition. Cariel 14:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The article currently says that Llull returned from his third mission in 1308, but he didn't leave on his second mission until 1314! Something's not right here. -- Reuben 17:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
This edit turned " Balearic Islands, now part of Spain" into " Balearic Islands, Spain". I have reverted that. There was no state "Spain" at the time. The edit also added "Spanish" to the list of languages in which he wrote. I wouldn't be surprised if Llull was literate in almost any Romance language of his time (insofar as they existed in written form) but I am unaware of him having ever written in any vernacular language we would now consider an ancestor of Spanish. If he did, I'd like to see this elaborated upon. If he didn't, I'd like to see this removed. - Jmabel | Talk 18:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
The memory system developed by Ramon Lull was known as Lullism. Lull was a 13th Century Majorcan who spent his youth working as a troubadour and courtier. After a spiritual experience whilst on top of Mount Randa, Lull believed he had perceived the attributes of God and he set out to develop a sort of elemental cosmology of nature inspired by this experience. At their heart, Lull's arts are based on the nine attributes of God: Goodness, greatness, eternity, power, wisdom, will, virtue, truth and glory. Lull claimed that because these concepts were fundamental to nature, they should form the natural structure for the study of any subject. Such an interest with paying attention to the names or attributes of God may sound strange to the modern mind, but it was similar to the practices of the mystical branches of both Judaism (the Cabala) and Islam (Sufism) that were contemporary with Lull. Lullism became ever more complex with varied diagrams depicting the inter-relationship of these concepts.
At a practical level, Lull believed in two methods for improving memory. Firstly, medicines, although he does not recommend taking this route. Exactly what medicines he means are now lost to us, as is most of the medieval herbalist tradition. The second method was frequent meditation upon what one wishes to remember. In other words: repetition; a fundamental, if simple, part of building memory. However, tantalisingly there is a lost work by Lull called 'The Book of the Seven Planets' which is said to contain the true method for memory enhancement. Whilst we no longer know exactly what this method consisted of, the emphasis on the number seven seems important. Interestingly, psychologists now know that seven is a fundamental number to our memory system: it's the maximum number of 'bits' of information the average person can hold at once in their short term memory.
This edit directly contradicts what was there before, now saying that he was not a Franciscan. Does someone have a citation either way? - Jmabel | Talk 05:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Anthony Banner wrote a book about Ramon Llull under the title "Dr. Illuminatus" because Ramon Llull's nickname was 'Enlightened Teacher'. In this book I believe Banner states that Ramon became a Tertiary Franciscan, so possibly just an affiliate member due to his own mission abroad (but that's just me talking). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.249.57.48 ( talk) 11:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I thought Lull was one of the primary exponents of a Christian interpretation of the Kaballah? Wasn't he supposed to have a had a mystical vision in the mountains of Aragan and Catalonia? Its amazing how many figures from that period in Spain sought a syncretic vision of Judaism, Christianty and Islam - Abulafia, Lull etc. If they had succeeded think where we would be now! ThePeg 19:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there a source for "Llull"? I've been reading about him recently, and none of the books I'm looking at use the name as given in the title of this article; they all use "Lull". I thought it was a typo, but it is too systematic. The.helping.people.tick ( talk) 13:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I've seen several sources saying that Llull called himself "Doctor Phantasticus" or "Ramón lo Foll" [1] [2] [3], but the sources seem sparse. Anyone know more about this? -- macrakis ( talk) 04:16, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I think Dali did a painting on him. TCO ( talk) 02:42, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Hopefully in the next week sometime I'll the time to do some serious work to this article. I've been working with Llull a lot recently, so have a pile of refs handy. In the meantime, I'll just point out the most egregious problem with the article as it stands: Llull was not and alchemist. Sometime after his death a large body of alchemical, mystical work was misattributed to him. The problem got so bad that during the late middle ages/renaissance some say there were more fake Llull works ("the pseudo-Llull") than those he did write. This is well documented despite still frequent references to "Llull's alchemy" or "Llull the mystic." He even condemns transmutation. ...Anyway...I'll just leave that there for now :) --— Rhododendrites talk | 03:19, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
Made several revisions. Can't do anymore now but the article still needs work.
--— Rhododendrites talk | 23:01, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I am going to revise so that the article is more similar to the Catalan page. I will also edit
-- Dempstere ( talk) 14:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
More edits:
-- Dempstere ( talk) 01:49, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
I am replacing "Literature and Works" with an entirely new section summarizing Llull's output. It encompasses everything that is already in the article and will fix some errors.-- Dempstere ( talk) 20:32, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
Now I will take out most of the Immaculate Conception part because there is incorrect information and it does not belong in the "Biography" section. I will incorporate into a new Reception section and explain how it is connected to his influence in the New World etc.
The Reception section will be organized chronologically with thematic subsections. Dempstere ( talk) 11:49, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
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It was my understanding there was some connection between Columbus and Lull. I'll be aware of collecting sources when I return. Peace. Jplvnv ( talk) 10:44, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
Yes! See Lullism Cardinal Cisneros was the Lullist involved with the missionaries who went with Columbus's second mission. Dempstere ( talk) 19:06, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
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|
This is a very obscure comment (and the syntax is poor and confusing). What exactly did he achieve in this field?
Walter Scott, in The Abbott, mentions Lullius' work with quicksilver. Is there information about this?
"In the DC comic book series The Sandman, one of the characters, a writer named Richard Madoc, puts forth the idea of writing a story about Paracelsus and Raymond Lulli being the same person. This is, in real life, highly unlikely, given that they lived a century or more apart."
I suggest that this is perhaps a joke in the comic book series. Celsus / Paracelsus (an assumed name - Para / Celsus) as a parallel to Para / Lull - hence, merely a pun!
There are a whole load of variant spellings for this chap. Would definitely need redirect links for the most common ones. I've found at least Raymond Lull and Ramon Lull, and I know there are a long list more.
I'm going to add redirect pages - Raymund Lull and Raymond Lulli Cimon avaro
The link to the Ramon Llull Database, University of Barcelona appears dead. Does anyone have a new one? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:36, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)
The article seems to suggest that other attributions of books to Llull are dubious, but I see consistently on the net (including in es:Arabista, which I am translating) unhesitating attribution to him of the Book of the Gentile and the Three Wise Men (Llibre del gentil e dels tres savis). I see no reason to doubt these and am adding it to the article. There seems general agreement it is a major work (I have not read it). -- Jmabel | Talk 04:36, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)
After reading as possible about Ramon Llull (without spending a fortune), I see no reason to doubt he wrote this book. I'd like to point out though, that the Alchemical works often attributed to Llull were more likely (again, due to research by Anthony Banner - I am NOT Anthony Banner by the way) to be written by someone in London 16 years after Llull's death using his name as Author. It also should be noted that even with his mysticism, and quite revolutionary works, Alchemy still seems to contradict his principles, his love of God and his beliefs. - Unamed Llull enthusiast
I noticed recently that Category:Spanish philosophers was changed to the non-existent Category:European philosophers. Unfortunately, the latter doesn't exist, so I have removed. it. I presume that the reason for the removal of Category:Spanish philosophers was the anachronism of using the term "Spanish" to refer to a Catalan of this period, a point well taken in my view. That category in general seems a bit dubious, since it includes Maimonides and Averroes as well, not exactly Spaniards. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:46, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
Just for the record, the proper "nationality" if the word can be applied would be "Aragonese", from the then existing Kingdom of Aragon-- Juansempere ( talk) 19:03, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
Despite appearances in the image, Llull is not smoking a cigarette. Tobacco was introduced to Europe from the New World in the 15th century. The "wisp of smoke" is in fact a long, narrow cartoon word bubble. (anon, March 19, 2005)
The words are legible: Lux mea est ipse Dominus: "My light is Lord Himself".
Does anyone know where this image came from? Mjhrynick 22:01, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I seem to remember he played a pretty big role in the history of the art of memory. No mention of that in the current article, though. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Lull influenced Giordano Bruno big time. Bruno mixed Lull's system with that of classical mnemonics, and used it not just for memorizing words and concepts, but also as a way of representing the structure of reality and acquiting 'higher knowledge'. JP
FWIW you can think of Llull's whole art as a mnemonic device. It's kind of a misconception that it's a tool for generating knowledge because the terms are already set and assumptions are built in. It's a mnemonic system to aid the process of invention, but does still require interpretation. Happy to add cites in the near future, but Yates and Eco come to mind off-hand. This thread doesn't look like it's in a hurry :) -- Rhododendrites ( talk) 22:54, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
"He had an epiphany..." is incorrect. Contrary to current casual usage, an epiphany is the appearance in the natural world of a being from an unnatural world. Llull became obsessed with ascetic religion after a period of sensual pleasure. What turned him was a glimpse of his girlfriend's cancerous breast. If no one objects, I will add this information to the article. Lestrade 13:54, 10 October 2005 (UTC)Lestrade
I think it's only fair to mention here that what also drew Ramon to pursue faith, was having 5 visions of Christ crucified, which I believe would be stated in his autobiography and in Anthony Banners' book "Dr. Illuminatus". Though this is not to contradict the above account as I believe that had an impact on Llull as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.249.57.48 ( talk) 11:51, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello! The above user said "5 times," but the Wiki shows 6 visions having occurred. I went and consulted Vita Coaetanea (his auto-biography), in which it is written: "Jesus Christ, in his great mercy, chose to visit me five times on the cross..." For this reason I will now change the wiki page to reflect this. Good day! TheLoneDeranger ( talk) 05:03, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
Franciscans´ work is frecuently considered apart from their "franciscanism". This is a huge mistake. If we really want to understand their thinking we have to include their "change of route" in their complete lives. Starting at the point that everything that was so far considered -only- as cause and effect changes. Pax et Bonum! —This unsigned comment was added by Maria Luisa ( talk • contribs) 18 March 2006.
Seems highly POV to me. If anyone would be willing to rewrite it, it'd be much appreciated. DoctorWorm7 01:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I've added his The Book of the Order of Chivarly to the list, but this is a rather influential work. Perhaps expansion on his knighthood and chivalric ideals in this article would be a nice addition. Cariel 14:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The article currently says that Llull returned from his third mission in 1308, but he didn't leave on his second mission until 1314! Something's not right here. -- Reuben 17:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
This edit turned " Balearic Islands, now part of Spain" into " Balearic Islands, Spain". I have reverted that. There was no state "Spain" at the time. The edit also added "Spanish" to the list of languages in which he wrote. I wouldn't be surprised if Llull was literate in almost any Romance language of his time (insofar as they existed in written form) but I am unaware of him having ever written in any vernacular language we would now consider an ancestor of Spanish. If he did, I'd like to see this elaborated upon. If he didn't, I'd like to see this removed. - Jmabel | Talk 18:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
The memory system developed by Ramon Lull was known as Lullism. Lull was a 13th Century Majorcan who spent his youth working as a troubadour and courtier. After a spiritual experience whilst on top of Mount Randa, Lull believed he had perceived the attributes of God and he set out to develop a sort of elemental cosmology of nature inspired by this experience. At their heart, Lull's arts are based on the nine attributes of God: Goodness, greatness, eternity, power, wisdom, will, virtue, truth and glory. Lull claimed that because these concepts were fundamental to nature, they should form the natural structure for the study of any subject. Such an interest with paying attention to the names or attributes of God may sound strange to the modern mind, but it was similar to the practices of the mystical branches of both Judaism (the Cabala) and Islam (Sufism) that were contemporary with Lull. Lullism became ever more complex with varied diagrams depicting the inter-relationship of these concepts.
At a practical level, Lull believed in two methods for improving memory. Firstly, medicines, although he does not recommend taking this route. Exactly what medicines he means are now lost to us, as is most of the medieval herbalist tradition. The second method was frequent meditation upon what one wishes to remember. In other words: repetition; a fundamental, if simple, part of building memory. However, tantalisingly there is a lost work by Lull called 'The Book of the Seven Planets' which is said to contain the true method for memory enhancement. Whilst we no longer know exactly what this method consisted of, the emphasis on the number seven seems important. Interestingly, psychologists now know that seven is a fundamental number to our memory system: it's the maximum number of 'bits' of information the average person can hold at once in their short term memory.
This edit directly contradicts what was there before, now saying that he was not a Franciscan. Does someone have a citation either way? - Jmabel | Talk 05:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Anthony Banner wrote a book about Ramon Llull under the title "Dr. Illuminatus" because Ramon Llull's nickname was 'Enlightened Teacher'. In this book I believe Banner states that Ramon became a Tertiary Franciscan, so possibly just an affiliate member due to his own mission abroad (but that's just me talking). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.249.57.48 ( talk) 11:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I thought Lull was one of the primary exponents of a Christian interpretation of the Kaballah? Wasn't he supposed to have a had a mystical vision in the mountains of Aragan and Catalonia? Its amazing how many figures from that period in Spain sought a syncretic vision of Judaism, Christianty and Islam - Abulafia, Lull etc. If they had succeeded think where we would be now! ThePeg 19:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Is there a source for "Llull"? I've been reading about him recently, and none of the books I'm looking at use the name as given in the title of this article; they all use "Lull". I thought it was a typo, but it is too systematic. The.helping.people.tick ( talk) 13:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I've seen several sources saying that Llull called himself "Doctor Phantasticus" or "Ramón lo Foll" [1] [2] [3], but the sources seem sparse. Anyone know more about this? -- macrakis ( talk) 04:16, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
I think Dali did a painting on him. TCO ( talk) 02:42, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Hopefully in the next week sometime I'll the time to do some serious work to this article. I've been working with Llull a lot recently, so have a pile of refs handy. In the meantime, I'll just point out the most egregious problem with the article as it stands: Llull was not and alchemist. Sometime after his death a large body of alchemical, mystical work was misattributed to him. The problem got so bad that during the late middle ages/renaissance some say there were more fake Llull works ("the pseudo-Llull") than those he did write. This is well documented despite still frequent references to "Llull's alchemy" or "Llull the mystic." He even condemns transmutation. ...Anyway...I'll just leave that there for now :) --— Rhododendrites talk | 03:19, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
Made several revisions. Can't do anymore now but the article still needs work.
--— Rhododendrites talk | 23:01, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I am going to revise so that the article is more similar to the Catalan page. I will also edit
-- Dempstere ( talk) 14:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
More edits:
-- Dempstere ( talk) 01:49, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
I am replacing "Literature and Works" with an entirely new section summarizing Llull's output. It encompasses everything that is already in the article and will fix some errors.-- Dempstere ( talk) 20:32, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
Now I will take out most of the Immaculate Conception part because there is incorrect information and it does not belong in the "Biography" section. I will incorporate into a new Reception section and explain how it is connected to his influence in the New World etc.
The Reception section will be organized chronologically with thematic subsections. Dempstere ( talk) 11:49, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 19:52, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Ramon Llull. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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It was my understanding there was some connection between Columbus and Lull. I'll be aware of collecting sources when I return. Peace. Jplvnv ( talk) 10:44, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
Yes! See Lullism Cardinal Cisneros was the Lullist involved with the missionaries who went with Columbus's second mission. Dempstere ( talk) 19:06, 28 September 2021 (UTC)