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So, F&F, you believe that
The description of Rajputs in the Hindu Dharmashastras, self image that the Rajputs presented, and the Mughal view of the Rajputs was disparate.
and
Many late-medieval Dharmshastra texts classify the Rajputs as a mixed caste from a Kshatriya father and Shudra mother; despite being allowed to earn their occupation as warriors, they were ordained to lead the life of a Sudra in the non-secular realms.
are either untrue or undue to be mentioned. TrangaBellam ( talk) 16:31, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
Source: Social Life in Ancient India (Sudhakar Chattopadhyaya, 1965, pg 18)Kane points out that according to the Sahyadrikhaṇḍa and Sūdrakamalākara an Ugra is called Rajput while according to the Jativiveka he is also called Ravut
Please see this . I checked, it is published as part of a textbook for university students in India.Divergent social groups got incorporated in the new socio-political fold of rajputras including Shudras. That’s why the Brihaddharmapurana regarded rajputras as a mixed caste and Shudra-kamalakara equates the Rajputs with ugra, a mixed caste born of the union of a Kshatriya man and a Shudra woman.
, this is another one from Ms Lindsay Harlan's book- From the Margin's of Hindu Marriage in the Chapter The Effectiveness of the Hindu Sacrament (Samskara): Caste, Marriage, and Divorce in Bengali Culture, page number 148.[ [2]] -8From a Brahmin man by a Vaisya girl* is born a son called Ambastha; and by a Śūdra girl, a Niṣāda, also called Pārasava. "From a Ksatriya man by a Śūdra girl is born a son called Ugra, who is cruel in his behavior and in his dealings, a being with the physical characteristics of both a Ksatriya and a Śüdra. 10 A Brahmin's children by the three lower classes, a Ksatriya's by the two lower classes, and a Vaisya's by the one lower class-tradition calls these six "low-born" (10.46 n.). "From a Kṣatriya man by a Brahmin girl is born a Sūta by caste; sons of a Vaisya by Ksatriya and Brahmin women are a Magadha and a Vaideha, respectively; 12and from a Śūdra by Vaisya, Ksatriya, and Brahmin women are born respectively an Ayogava, a Kṣattr, and a Canḍāla, the worst of all men so originate the intermixture of classes. 13 As when there is a difference of two classes in a birth, tradition calls them Ambastha and Ugra if the difference is in the direct order, in like manner they are Kṣatr and Vaideha, if it is in the inverse order.
on Page 159, the writer clarifies that it is Ugra community locally called as Aguris-The Brahmans asked the Ugras (whose name means “vi¬ olent" or “cruel"), who were physically strong (balavat) and brave, to follow the occupation of Ksatriyas in warfare. The Magadhas, who were unwilling to fight because of the necessity of killing (himsa), were asked to be bards (vandT) to Brahmans and Ksatriyas, to carry messages, and to study the Ksatraveda (Sanskrit works on warfare).
Here is another A R Desai page 453 in State and Society in India-My own fieldwork had not brought me into contact with Vaidyas, al¬ though I have a good many acquaintances among persons of this caste in Calcutta and elsewhere. The Aguri caste, who consider themselves the modern representatives of the Ugras and refer to themselves as Ugra Ksatriyas, are heavily concentrated in Burdwan district and the immediately surrounding areas.
, there are multiple writers interpreting the same primary reference of Dharmashastra and Ancient texts for a different grp especially the Kshatriya father and Sudra mother children is called Ugra is the line in all the refs. So, it becomes important we seek WP: Tertiary. Lastly on the caste part, there are secondary references which also say that this community is regarded as Kshatriya etc, but that is immaterial to the point I raised. Thanks and Regards. Akalanka820 ( talk) 18:18, 21 November 2022 (UTC)A Bengali version of the martial style is the Ugra-Kshatriya jati, Ugra meaning "hot-tempered." They are characterized in Lal Behari Day's novel of 1872 about his village in Burdwan district as "a bold and somewhat fierce race, and less patient of any injustice or oppression than the ordinary Bengal raiyat." An account of the same village as of 1962 quotes this passage and comments that the Ugra-Kshatriyas ("a strong, courageous community") still show the same characteristics. Their origin myth (from Manu X.9.) told of their descent from a Kshatriya man and a Sudra girl, and so they were not given unequivocal Kshatriya standing, but "they are now claiming themselves to be Kshatriyas and are trying to acquire the status of the twice-born themselves" (Basu 1962, pp. 24, 36).
there are multiple writers interpreting the same primary reference of Dharmashastra and Ancient texts for a different grp especially the Kshatriya father and Sudra mother children is called Ugra is the line in all the refs. Why is this a contradiction? Can there not be two or more ugra castes? Can you show one quote where the specific 17th century text sudrakamalakara is translated differently from rajaputa? There are zero contradictions and the reason is these are direct translations from Sanskrit. Second, do you agree that Nandini Kapur is a tertiary source? LukeEmily ( talk) 18:23, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
pp. 257: section RAJPUTS ACCORDING TO THE DHARMASASTRA: Whatever the realities of Rajputization among powerful tribal families seeking to enter the varna system with a certain status, and emigre brahmanas helping them to do so, by brahmanical dharmasastra definitions prevalent in Shivaji’s lifetime, Rajputs are a miscegenated jati produced from non-alike fathers and mothers of specified types. According to the Sudrakamalakara, an authoritative Sanskrit text on the dharma of sudras written by Gagabhatta’s own uncle, Kamalakarabhatta, in the early part of the seventeenth century, the progeny of a ksatriya man and a sudra woman would be an ugra, otherwise known as a rajaputa.33 Such a person does battle and is expert in wielding weapons, but he must follow the duties proper to a sudra. In Kamalakara’s classification, being a sankarajati, or mixed group, ugras, or rajaputas are sudrasamana, as goodas (or as bad as!) sudras. [footnote]‘Ugra’ literally means ‘scary’, or ‘ferocious’.In equating the ugra and the rajap"uta, medieval dharma«s"astra writers nodoubt intended to refer to the warlike properties of the class of person they were describing.See Kamalakarabhatta, ‘Jatinirnayaprakaranam’, in his ®Sudrakamalakara,p. 255. A progeny whose father has a higher varna than the mother, as in this case,is called an anulomaja, or ‘one born in accordance with the natural flow’ (that is,the descending order) of social hierarchy, from man (superior) to woman (inferior).Kamalakara lists the ugra among the six types of anulomajas (ibid.: 254–5). An earlier text in this genre, the ®Sudracarasiromani by Sesakrsna, also provides thesame definition of a rajaputa (Ibid.: 15)
(page 258)HE POLYPHONY OF RAJPUT IDENTITY:From its earliest appearance in north India, the category of ‘Rajput’ seems to have been by definition an open and accommodating one. Repeatedly, over the course of centuries, its persistence, or reinvention, allowed politically and sometimes even economically ascendant groups, especially those with a clan-based structure, to be recruited into ksatriya status. Time and again brahmana and non-Rajput ksatriya interests denigrated it as a category for arrivistes, insinuating or charging that Rajputs were nothing but ersatz ksatriyas
Vajpeyi's book is nowhere in that gene-pool of rigor and sophistication.Sir,it is not her book - it is a broad collection of topics from various scholars on many topics including Buddhism. You are discussing another book on that other page that you have used. We are not using her unpublished PhD thesis either. This specific chapter by Vajpeyi(not the book) is cited by 10 scholars including historian Theodore Benke and Dr.Rosalind O'Hanlon, Dr.Audrey Truschke etc. But she is not rigorous enough for wikipedia? Susan Bayly is great, I agree, but Vajpeyi goes in great depth in this source. She even gives the page number of the Sanskrit scripture in her citations. Also, I am not sure that as editors were are allowed to judge if source are sophisticated or not. Would that not be WP:OR? Sorry, I cannot believe what I am reading. This will get rid of 90% of content on caste articles on wikipedia and will open a can of worms. This will be seriously detrimental to WP. For DUE,the Indian textbook(by Historian Kapur) is a tertiary source as per wikipedia definition of tertiary source. I think we will be violating WP policies with such arbitrary rules and judging sources i.e WP:OR. LukeEmily ( talk) 22:58, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
What applies to the pages of other caste and communities, is equally applicable to this page. Just because the people from this caste group are very active on Wikipedia and they resent everything that appears to them against the honour of their community, we can't just erase everything that is supported by sources but not liked by Rajpoot people. Let's just avoid the varna discussion as that is supported by sources and consensus was established long ago after months of discussion. For the recent addition like "Rajputs in Hindu Dharmashastra" and other stuffs, please carry on discussion. I'll be keeping a tab on the discussion going on here. Admantine123 ( talk) 19:42, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
Here is my summary:
Dharmashastra part:
Ananya Vajpeyi discusses the Rajputs in the context of Hindu Sanskrit Dharmashastra texts and shows the dissonance between the meaning of Rajput in the practical political arena versus the literal meaning of rajaputa in Hindu religious texts and how both meanings could coexist in medieval times. [1]
As per the medieval Brahminical Dharmashastras, Rajputs are a mixed jati. The Jatinirnayaprakaranama of Sudrakamalakara, an early 1600s Dharmaśāstra text written by Kamalakarabhatta , an ugra or rajaputa is the projeny of a mixed caste. Although ugra literally means scary or fierce, in this context the medieval writers only used this term in the context of his qualities as a warrior. Seshasakrishna's Sudracarasiromani, a text that predates Sudrakamalakara also supports this definition for a rajaputa. Kamalakarabhatta makes a professional and ritual distinction: a rajaputa may fight, however, he has to follow the duties similar to sudras or be sudrasamana in non-secular realms. Thus, in the practical political context and Hindu religious texts the lexical similarity of the words is deceptive. Some emigrant Brahmins may have been involved in Rajputising tribes to the Rajput status. Despite this, periodically, Brahmins have stated from time to time that Rajputs are not real Kshatriyas. [1]
non-Dharmashastra part:
Other than establishing marital ties with already established Rajput families, constructing genealogies and adopting titles such as "rana", Rajputising also involved starting the pretensions of rituals of twice-borns ( wearing sacred thread etc.). [2] However, one ritual that was not given much significance was the Abhisheka. When a clan leader was made king by the Mughal emperor, the Tika mark on the head of leader by the Muslim emperor confirmed his Royal status and the Hindu ritual of Abhisheka was only of secondary importance. Aurangzeb eventually stopped the custom of Tika and the custom was replaced by bowing or taslim to the Mughal emperor, who would return the salute. This possibly implies that it was still up to the Mughal emperor to ultimately give or deny the Rajput status to the clan leader. [3] The description of Rajputs in the Hindu Dharmashastras, self image that the Rajputs presented, and the Mughal view of the Rajputs was disparate. This incongruity, makes the Rajput identity polyphonous. [1] LukeEmily ( talk) 21:32, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
As per some hindu dharmashastras, the word rajputa means mixed caste from a Kshatriya father and Shudra mother. Brahmins have time and again alleged that Rajputs are not real Khsatriyas even though some Brahmins themselves were involved in Rajputising tribes.". But I think TB's summary was much better than mine. As a side, Please check this screenshot by manpret sohal(I have no clue who Mr Sohal is and have no association with him - but he has shared a screenshot from Skanda Puran) sohal . This is the image from the hindu scripture image. Please check line 48 and 47. It explicitly uses the word "Rajput" (not Rajputra). And it says the Rajput is the product of a Kshatriya man, shudra woman and has to follow the dharma of a shudra. This is from another scripture not the one Vajpeyi mentions. My point was simple: Rajput claims of their varna were given, historian opinions were given but nowhere were Brahmin opinions or scriptures cited. Are the Brahminic scriptures not important? If you feel it is undue, I have no further arguments and we can close this discussion with the consensus to keep it removed. I apologize for taking everyone's time. LukeEmily ( talk) 23:11, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
These interpretive activities on the part of Maharashtrian Brahmans, says Vajpeyi, were probably an attempt to domesticate and colonize a wide and heterogeneous series of groups (both social groups but also women) by thematizing otherness and social difference where most people did not need to have reference to dharma (or appropriate behavior) in their daily lives to display markers of ritual status.Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:13, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
Just read your latest comment, I think your comments are WP:OR. Can we close this as per WP:UNDUE. It is obvious that the Brahmins had to have some way of discussing a mixed caste as a metaphor and the Kshatriya-shudra sex is not to be taken literally. LukeEmily ( talk) 23:11, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 02:55, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
the implication that the so-called back-door entrants to Kshatriyahood are lesser Kshatriyas than those who fancy more authentic origins; that the snake-catching tribes are metaphorically born of less pure relations, is not something Wikipedia can give notability to in its articles on the castes so objectified. It can mostly do so only in its articles on the castes who did the objectifying or on the works of objectification that appeared as a result; those are the venues where a mention would be WP:DUE.
Rajputs against Propaganda - RAJAPA page to burst the evil propaganda against the Kshatriya (Rajput) https://www.facebook.com/108197814411768/posts/providing-below-the-list-of-hate...Providing below the list of hate mongers and propagandists against rajput community. These are working with an agenda to malign the Rajput on wikipedia and uplift other castes to Kshatriya status. .. They have made it private now but they dont realize that google caches the summary. I will not be completely shocked if many of the Rajput POV pushers are part of the facebook group privately communicating with you. LukeEmily ( talk) 18:41, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
References
Pratihaar of kannauj also known as Gurjar-Pratihaar Kingdom. They belongs to Gurjar Caste not Rajputs. Therefore, you are requested to remove Pratihaar of Kannauj from this page as it violates the rules of Wikipedia. DrPawan29 ( talk) 11:53, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
It was added that just recently that in anti-Mughal literature here [ [3]]- ( yes this was the word used by those who wanted to add it) this particular social group rulers were criticised for their closeness to Mughals. After that Dr Purnima Dhavan reference of an event which is not every detailed in her chapter except one liner has been added to support it. This is the full words from the same book Chapter named Sikhism in Eighteenth Century by Purnima Dhavan, page number 3 of it- [ [4]] , The last paragraph here becomes important, the writer says it is Sikh version and yes it also says How Guru Gobind Singh was reaching out to Mughals ( the word diplomatic exchange...??), I am bit surprised as to how this is a broad topic notable to a caste page?? If anything it can be mentioned in Guru Gobind Singh's page. Akalanka820 ( talk) 08:31, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
[1]. Mughal Rajput and Sikh interaction is quite important. Anyways, by deleting a sentence addedIn many literary works, especially those reflecting the views of the anti-Mughal movements, there was observable criticism of the Rajputs for their alliance with the Mughals and...
regular additions that you have been continuously pushing on this page. But it suffices to say I have been adding both positive and negative views all over wikipedia. Please let me know if you need examples. You are free to add only positive views. Or add opposing views as you mentioned(giving refuge to Sikhs). Your previous comment on literature is WP:OR as Vanina does not say it is sikh literature. And even if it were, why does it matter? It could be rephrased if I made a mistake in understanding what she said - you could have just removed anti-Mughal instead of deleting everything along with the source. There have been some deletions and additions(including mine) since december 15th that have been reverted and objected to. So as per WP:BRD, each of us - both you and me - need to explain our edits via discussions and reach consensus. As per WP:BRD, 15th december is clearly a consensus version. Please let us follow WP rules/policies. I will create a section to discuss the sikh/rajput relation so we can discuss. Please focus only on the content and not on the editors in that section. LukeEmily ( talk) 22:56, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
References
I recently added the mention of term "rajaputra" in Rigveda and other Hindu texts. The addition was reverted by LukeEmily twice: 1 & 2. I wish to respond to you, Luke. Rajaputra redirects to Rajput only for a simple reason that "rajput" is largely considered to be derived from the sanskrit term "rajaputra". I added the content in "Origin" section rather than "Emergence as a community" section. Mentions of the term in ancient Hindu texts is worthy enough for the origin section. I haven't added any conclusive statement in the main body like "today's rajputs are ancient rajaputras". The quotes provided with citations are for verifiability of sources. Here are the citations provided by me for content addition: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]
In your edit summaries, you seem to be contesting the mention of "rajaputra" in Rigveda. Apart from the sources provided, you can find the Rigvedic verse "rajpautreva savantava gachhatah" in Sanskrit scholar John Muir's translation of Rigveda here. I also found these two sites in "External links" section of Rigveda page: 1 & 2. A simple Ctrl+F command will do. Dympies ( talk) 17:33, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
References
Indeed J. N. Asopa confirms that "Rajput is a corruption of the Vedic term Rajputra which can be found in the Rigveda, Yajur Veda, Samhita, and Aitareya Brahmana of Rigveda, as a synonym of Rajanya. In the Mahabharata too, the term Rajputra is used to define nobles and leaders, as is Kshatriya. The literal meaning of Kshatriya is 'son of Kshatra', therefore the meaning of Rajanya and Kshatriya is the same, as is Rajputra, a synonym of both, but the meaning of which will begin to slowly change over the following centuries."
Thus Rajputra is not a newly coined word. Its mention has been found in Rigveda "Rajputreva Savantava gachhmah" (vide Rigveda 10 , 4 , 3 quote 11 and Origin of Rajputs by J.N. Asopa page 4 ) . It also occurs in Yajurvedic Kathak Samhita and Aitareya Brahman of Rigveda. It has been referred to in Kautilya's Arthshastra and Mālavikāgnimitra of Kali Das. It also finds its place in Panini. Bana in Harsha - Charitra similarly uses the word Rajput to denote a Kshatriya . The word Rajputra has been used in many a verse in the Mahabharata . Shantiparva Adhyaya 64 shows that Rajputra is used in the sense of a Kshatriya
Paritusto 'smi bhadram te rajaputra mahāyasah prityå paramaya yukto dadamy astrăni sarvasah
राजपुत्रौ कुशलिनौ भ्रातरौ रामलक्ष्मणौ rajputrau kushalinau bhratrau ramlakshmanau
Recently, I have removed a two liner quotes here-[ [7]] added in Aurangzeb's policy section, following the editor who had added the quote then added another content to support their points but these narratives were part of the Sikh claims to warrior hood as per Dr Purnima Dhavan in Chapter Sikhism in Eighteenth Century in Oxford handbook of Sikh Studies here is the quote just below the above mentioned part -
Even in these reduced circumstances, later texts would note, the Guru continued to rally his supporters, pursued a diplomatic exchange with the Mughal court, and despite his difficulties, did not budge from his original claims of miri and piri or restrict his patronage and protection to the Khalsa (p. 51) alone. This charismatic leadership, courtliness, and open-handed patronage, even in difficult times, would remain the benchmark against which later Sikh courtly traditions would judge their own claims to warrior status
<ref name="SinghFenech2014">Purnima Dhavan; Pashaura Singh; Louis E. Fenech (27 March 2014). The Oxford Handbook of Sikh Studies. OUP Oxford. pp. 50–. ISBN 978-0-19-100411-7.,
, The most important part a simple glance over most of these books will tell that the writers here explain the Sikh centric literature and are more related to Sikh community claims to warrior hood.The Guru certainly draw many facets from Indo-Persian, Indo-Timurid, and Rajput courtly but not all..
.The last guru, Gobind Singh (1666-1708), like other Punjab chiefs, variously used and resisted Mughal rule. Although defeated by Aurangzeb at the end of his reign, Gobind appealed to the new emperor, in vain, for restoration for his lands.
Just small advice to avoid WP:TLDR |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 |
So, F&F, you believe that
The description of Rajputs in the Hindu Dharmashastras, self image that the Rajputs presented, and the Mughal view of the Rajputs was disparate.
and
Many late-medieval Dharmshastra texts classify the Rajputs as a mixed caste from a Kshatriya father and Shudra mother; despite being allowed to earn their occupation as warriors, they were ordained to lead the life of a Sudra in the non-secular realms.
are either untrue or undue to be mentioned. TrangaBellam ( talk) 16:31, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
Source: Social Life in Ancient India (Sudhakar Chattopadhyaya, 1965, pg 18)Kane points out that according to the Sahyadrikhaṇḍa and Sūdrakamalākara an Ugra is called Rajput while according to the Jativiveka he is also called Ravut
Please see this . I checked, it is published as part of a textbook for university students in India.Divergent social groups got incorporated in the new socio-political fold of rajputras including Shudras. That’s why the Brihaddharmapurana regarded rajputras as a mixed caste and Shudra-kamalakara equates the Rajputs with ugra, a mixed caste born of the union of a Kshatriya man and a Shudra woman.
, this is another one from Ms Lindsay Harlan's book- From the Margin's of Hindu Marriage in the Chapter The Effectiveness of the Hindu Sacrament (Samskara): Caste, Marriage, and Divorce in Bengali Culture, page number 148.[ [2]] -8From a Brahmin man by a Vaisya girl* is born a son called Ambastha; and by a Śūdra girl, a Niṣāda, also called Pārasava. "From a Ksatriya man by a Śūdra girl is born a son called Ugra, who is cruel in his behavior and in his dealings, a being with the physical characteristics of both a Ksatriya and a Śüdra. 10 A Brahmin's children by the three lower classes, a Ksatriya's by the two lower classes, and a Vaisya's by the one lower class-tradition calls these six "low-born" (10.46 n.). "From a Kṣatriya man by a Brahmin girl is born a Sūta by caste; sons of a Vaisya by Ksatriya and Brahmin women are a Magadha and a Vaideha, respectively; 12and from a Śūdra by Vaisya, Ksatriya, and Brahmin women are born respectively an Ayogava, a Kṣattr, and a Canḍāla, the worst of all men so originate the intermixture of classes. 13 As when there is a difference of two classes in a birth, tradition calls them Ambastha and Ugra if the difference is in the direct order, in like manner they are Kṣatr and Vaideha, if it is in the inverse order.
on Page 159, the writer clarifies that it is Ugra community locally called as Aguris-The Brahmans asked the Ugras (whose name means “vi¬ olent" or “cruel"), who were physically strong (balavat) and brave, to follow the occupation of Ksatriyas in warfare. The Magadhas, who were unwilling to fight because of the necessity of killing (himsa), were asked to be bards (vandT) to Brahmans and Ksatriyas, to carry messages, and to study the Ksatraveda (Sanskrit works on warfare).
Here is another A R Desai page 453 in State and Society in India-My own fieldwork had not brought me into contact with Vaidyas, al¬ though I have a good many acquaintances among persons of this caste in Calcutta and elsewhere. The Aguri caste, who consider themselves the modern representatives of the Ugras and refer to themselves as Ugra Ksatriyas, are heavily concentrated in Burdwan district and the immediately surrounding areas.
, there are multiple writers interpreting the same primary reference of Dharmashastra and Ancient texts for a different grp especially the Kshatriya father and Sudra mother children is called Ugra is the line in all the refs. So, it becomes important we seek WP: Tertiary. Lastly on the caste part, there are secondary references which also say that this community is regarded as Kshatriya etc, but that is immaterial to the point I raised. Thanks and Regards. Akalanka820 ( talk) 18:18, 21 November 2022 (UTC)A Bengali version of the martial style is the Ugra-Kshatriya jati, Ugra meaning "hot-tempered." They are characterized in Lal Behari Day's novel of 1872 about his village in Burdwan district as "a bold and somewhat fierce race, and less patient of any injustice or oppression than the ordinary Bengal raiyat." An account of the same village as of 1962 quotes this passage and comments that the Ugra-Kshatriyas ("a strong, courageous community") still show the same characteristics. Their origin myth (from Manu X.9.) told of their descent from a Kshatriya man and a Sudra girl, and so they were not given unequivocal Kshatriya standing, but "they are now claiming themselves to be Kshatriyas and are trying to acquire the status of the twice-born themselves" (Basu 1962, pp. 24, 36).
there are multiple writers interpreting the same primary reference of Dharmashastra and Ancient texts for a different grp especially the Kshatriya father and Sudra mother children is called Ugra is the line in all the refs. Why is this a contradiction? Can there not be two or more ugra castes? Can you show one quote where the specific 17th century text sudrakamalakara is translated differently from rajaputa? There are zero contradictions and the reason is these are direct translations from Sanskrit. Second, do you agree that Nandini Kapur is a tertiary source? LukeEmily ( talk) 18:23, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
pp. 257: section RAJPUTS ACCORDING TO THE DHARMASASTRA: Whatever the realities of Rajputization among powerful tribal families seeking to enter the varna system with a certain status, and emigre brahmanas helping them to do so, by brahmanical dharmasastra definitions prevalent in Shivaji’s lifetime, Rajputs are a miscegenated jati produced from non-alike fathers and mothers of specified types. According to the Sudrakamalakara, an authoritative Sanskrit text on the dharma of sudras written by Gagabhatta’s own uncle, Kamalakarabhatta, in the early part of the seventeenth century, the progeny of a ksatriya man and a sudra woman would be an ugra, otherwise known as a rajaputa.33 Such a person does battle and is expert in wielding weapons, but he must follow the duties proper to a sudra. In Kamalakara’s classification, being a sankarajati, or mixed group, ugras, or rajaputas are sudrasamana, as goodas (or as bad as!) sudras. [footnote]‘Ugra’ literally means ‘scary’, or ‘ferocious’.In equating the ugra and the rajap"uta, medieval dharma«s"astra writers nodoubt intended to refer to the warlike properties of the class of person they were describing.See Kamalakarabhatta, ‘Jatinirnayaprakaranam’, in his ®Sudrakamalakara,p. 255. A progeny whose father has a higher varna than the mother, as in this case,is called an anulomaja, or ‘one born in accordance with the natural flow’ (that is,the descending order) of social hierarchy, from man (superior) to woman (inferior).Kamalakara lists the ugra among the six types of anulomajas (ibid.: 254–5). An earlier text in this genre, the ®Sudracarasiromani by Sesakrsna, also provides thesame definition of a rajaputa (Ibid.: 15)
(page 258)HE POLYPHONY OF RAJPUT IDENTITY:From its earliest appearance in north India, the category of ‘Rajput’ seems to have been by definition an open and accommodating one. Repeatedly, over the course of centuries, its persistence, or reinvention, allowed politically and sometimes even economically ascendant groups, especially those with a clan-based structure, to be recruited into ksatriya status. Time and again brahmana and non-Rajput ksatriya interests denigrated it as a category for arrivistes, insinuating or charging that Rajputs were nothing but ersatz ksatriyas
Vajpeyi's book is nowhere in that gene-pool of rigor and sophistication.Sir,it is not her book - it is a broad collection of topics from various scholars on many topics including Buddhism. You are discussing another book on that other page that you have used. We are not using her unpublished PhD thesis either. This specific chapter by Vajpeyi(not the book) is cited by 10 scholars including historian Theodore Benke and Dr.Rosalind O'Hanlon, Dr.Audrey Truschke etc. But she is not rigorous enough for wikipedia? Susan Bayly is great, I agree, but Vajpeyi goes in great depth in this source. She even gives the page number of the Sanskrit scripture in her citations. Also, I am not sure that as editors were are allowed to judge if source are sophisticated or not. Would that not be WP:OR? Sorry, I cannot believe what I am reading. This will get rid of 90% of content on caste articles on wikipedia and will open a can of worms. This will be seriously detrimental to WP. For DUE,the Indian textbook(by Historian Kapur) is a tertiary source as per wikipedia definition of tertiary source. I think we will be violating WP policies with such arbitrary rules and judging sources i.e WP:OR. LukeEmily ( talk) 22:58, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
What applies to the pages of other caste and communities, is equally applicable to this page. Just because the people from this caste group are very active on Wikipedia and they resent everything that appears to them against the honour of their community, we can't just erase everything that is supported by sources but not liked by Rajpoot people. Let's just avoid the varna discussion as that is supported by sources and consensus was established long ago after months of discussion. For the recent addition like "Rajputs in Hindu Dharmashastra" and other stuffs, please carry on discussion. I'll be keeping a tab on the discussion going on here. Admantine123 ( talk) 19:42, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
Here is my summary:
Dharmashastra part:
Ananya Vajpeyi discusses the Rajputs in the context of Hindu Sanskrit Dharmashastra texts and shows the dissonance between the meaning of Rajput in the practical political arena versus the literal meaning of rajaputa in Hindu religious texts and how both meanings could coexist in medieval times. [1]
As per the medieval Brahminical Dharmashastras, Rajputs are a mixed jati. The Jatinirnayaprakaranama of Sudrakamalakara, an early 1600s Dharmaśāstra text written by Kamalakarabhatta , an ugra or rajaputa is the projeny of a mixed caste. Although ugra literally means scary or fierce, in this context the medieval writers only used this term in the context of his qualities as a warrior. Seshasakrishna's Sudracarasiromani, a text that predates Sudrakamalakara also supports this definition for a rajaputa. Kamalakarabhatta makes a professional and ritual distinction: a rajaputa may fight, however, he has to follow the duties similar to sudras or be sudrasamana in non-secular realms. Thus, in the practical political context and Hindu religious texts the lexical similarity of the words is deceptive. Some emigrant Brahmins may have been involved in Rajputising tribes to the Rajput status. Despite this, periodically, Brahmins have stated from time to time that Rajputs are not real Kshatriyas. [1]
non-Dharmashastra part:
Other than establishing marital ties with already established Rajput families, constructing genealogies and adopting titles such as "rana", Rajputising also involved starting the pretensions of rituals of twice-borns ( wearing sacred thread etc.). [2] However, one ritual that was not given much significance was the Abhisheka. When a clan leader was made king by the Mughal emperor, the Tika mark on the head of leader by the Muslim emperor confirmed his Royal status and the Hindu ritual of Abhisheka was only of secondary importance. Aurangzeb eventually stopped the custom of Tika and the custom was replaced by bowing or taslim to the Mughal emperor, who would return the salute. This possibly implies that it was still up to the Mughal emperor to ultimately give or deny the Rajput status to the clan leader. [3] The description of Rajputs in the Hindu Dharmashastras, self image that the Rajputs presented, and the Mughal view of the Rajputs was disparate. This incongruity, makes the Rajput identity polyphonous. [1] LukeEmily ( talk) 21:32, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
As per some hindu dharmashastras, the word rajputa means mixed caste from a Kshatriya father and Shudra mother. Brahmins have time and again alleged that Rajputs are not real Khsatriyas even though some Brahmins themselves were involved in Rajputising tribes.". But I think TB's summary was much better than mine. As a side, Please check this screenshot by manpret sohal(I have no clue who Mr Sohal is and have no association with him - but he has shared a screenshot from Skanda Puran) sohal . This is the image from the hindu scripture image. Please check line 48 and 47. It explicitly uses the word "Rajput" (not Rajputra). And it says the Rajput is the product of a Kshatriya man, shudra woman and has to follow the dharma of a shudra. This is from another scripture not the one Vajpeyi mentions. My point was simple: Rajput claims of their varna were given, historian opinions were given but nowhere were Brahmin opinions or scriptures cited. Are the Brahminic scriptures not important? If you feel it is undue, I have no further arguments and we can close this discussion with the consensus to keep it removed. I apologize for taking everyone's time. LukeEmily ( talk) 23:11, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
These interpretive activities on the part of Maharashtrian Brahmans, says Vajpeyi, were probably an attempt to domesticate and colonize a wide and heterogeneous series of groups (both social groups but also women) by thematizing otherness and social difference where most people did not need to have reference to dharma (or appropriate behavior) in their daily lives to display markers of ritual status.Fowler&fowler «Talk» 23:13, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
Just read your latest comment, I think your comments are WP:OR. Can we close this as per WP:UNDUE. It is obvious that the Brahmins had to have some way of discussing a mixed caste as a metaphor and the Kshatriya-shudra sex is not to be taken literally. LukeEmily ( talk) 23:11, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
Fowler&fowler «Talk» 02:55, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
the implication that the so-called back-door entrants to Kshatriyahood are lesser Kshatriyas than those who fancy more authentic origins; that the snake-catching tribes are metaphorically born of less pure relations, is not something Wikipedia can give notability to in its articles on the castes so objectified. It can mostly do so only in its articles on the castes who did the objectifying or on the works of objectification that appeared as a result; those are the venues where a mention would be WP:DUE.
Rajputs against Propaganda - RAJAPA page to burst the evil propaganda against the Kshatriya (Rajput) https://www.facebook.com/108197814411768/posts/providing-below-the-list-of-hate...Providing below the list of hate mongers and propagandists against rajput community. These are working with an agenda to malign the Rajput on wikipedia and uplift other castes to Kshatriya status. .. They have made it private now but they dont realize that google caches the summary. I will not be completely shocked if many of the Rajput POV pushers are part of the facebook group privately communicating with you. LukeEmily ( talk) 18:41, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
References
Pratihaar of kannauj also known as Gurjar-Pratihaar Kingdom. They belongs to Gurjar Caste not Rajputs. Therefore, you are requested to remove Pratihaar of Kannauj from this page as it violates the rules of Wikipedia. DrPawan29 ( talk) 11:53, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
It was added that just recently that in anti-Mughal literature here [ [3]]- ( yes this was the word used by those who wanted to add it) this particular social group rulers were criticised for their closeness to Mughals. After that Dr Purnima Dhavan reference of an event which is not every detailed in her chapter except one liner has been added to support it. This is the full words from the same book Chapter named Sikhism in Eighteenth Century by Purnima Dhavan, page number 3 of it- [ [4]] , The last paragraph here becomes important, the writer says it is Sikh version and yes it also says How Guru Gobind Singh was reaching out to Mughals ( the word diplomatic exchange...??), I am bit surprised as to how this is a broad topic notable to a caste page?? If anything it can be mentioned in Guru Gobind Singh's page. Akalanka820 ( talk) 08:31, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
[1]. Mughal Rajput and Sikh interaction is quite important. Anyways, by deleting a sentence addedIn many literary works, especially those reflecting the views of the anti-Mughal movements, there was observable criticism of the Rajputs for their alliance with the Mughals and...
regular additions that you have been continuously pushing on this page. But it suffices to say I have been adding both positive and negative views all over wikipedia. Please let me know if you need examples. You are free to add only positive views. Or add opposing views as you mentioned(giving refuge to Sikhs). Your previous comment on literature is WP:OR as Vanina does not say it is sikh literature. And even if it were, why does it matter? It could be rephrased if I made a mistake in understanding what she said - you could have just removed anti-Mughal instead of deleting everything along with the source. There have been some deletions and additions(including mine) since december 15th that have been reverted and objected to. So as per WP:BRD, each of us - both you and me - need to explain our edits via discussions and reach consensus. As per WP:BRD, 15th december is clearly a consensus version. Please let us follow WP rules/policies. I will create a section to discuss the sikh/rajput relation so we can discuss. Please focus only on the content and not on the editors in that section. LukeEmily ( talk) 22:56, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
References
I recently added the mention of term "rajaputra" in Rigveda and other Hindu texts. The addition was reverted by LukeEmily twice: 1 & 2. I wish to respond to you, Luke. Rajaputra redirects to Rajput only for a simple reason that "rajput" is largely considered to be derived from the sanskrit term "rajaputra". I added the content in "Origin" section rather than "Emergence as a community" section. Mentions of the term in ancient Hindu texts is worthy enough for the origin section. I haven't added any conclusive statement in the main body like "today's rajputs are ancient rajaputras". The quotes provided with citations are for verifiability of sources. Here are the citations provided by me for content addition: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]
In your edit summaries, you seem to be contesting the mention of "rajaputra" in Rigveda. Apart from the sources provided, you can find the Rigvedic verse "rajpautreva savantava gachhatah" in Sanskrit scholar John Muir's translation of Rigveda here. I also found these two sites in "External links" section of Rigveda page: 1 & 2. A simple Ctrl+F command will do. Dympies ( talk) 17:33, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
References
Indeed J. N. Asopa confirms that "Rajput is a corruption of the Vedic term Rajputra which can be found in the Rigveda, Yajur Veda, Samhita, and Aitareya Brahmana of Rigveda, as a synonym of Rajanya. In the Mahabharata too, the term Rajputra is used to define nobles and leaders, as is Kshatriya. The literal meaning of Kshatriya is 'son of Kshatra', therefore the meaning of Rajanya and Kshatriya is the same, as is Rajputra, a synonym of both, but the meaning of which will begin to slowly change over the following centuries."
Thus Rajputra is not a newly coined word. Its mention has been found in Rigveda "Rajputreva Savantava gachhmah" (vide Rigveda 10 , 4 , 3 quote 11 and Origin of Rajputs by J.N. Asopa page 4 ) . It also occurs in Yajurvedic Kathak Samhita and Aitareya Brahman of Rigveda. It has been referred to in Kautilya's Arthshastra and Mālavikāgnimitra of Kali Das. It also finds its place in Panini. Bana in Harsha - Charitra similarly uses the word Rajput to denote a Kshatriya . The word Rajputra has been used in many a verse in the Mahabharata . Shantiparva Adhyaya 64 shows that Rajputra is used in the sense of a Kshatriya
Paritusto 'smi bhadram te rajaputra mahāyasah prityå paramaya yukto dadamy astrăni sarvasah
राजपुत्रौ कुशलिनौ भ्रातरौ रामलक्ष्मणौ rajputrau kushalinau bhratrau ramlakshmanau
Recently, I have removed a two liner quotes here-[ [7]] added in Aurangzeb's policy section, following the editor who had added the quote then added another content to support their points but these narratives were part of the Sikh claims to warrior hood as per Dr Purnima Dhavan in Chapter Sikhism in Eighteenth Century in Oxford handbook of Sikh Studies here is the quote just below the above mentioned part -
Even in these reduced circumstances, later texts would note, the Guru continued to rally his supporters, pursued a diplomatic exchange with the Mughal court, and despite his difficulties, did not budge from his original claims of miri and piri or restrict his patronage and protection to the Khalsa (p. 51) alone. This charismatic leadership, courtliness, and open-handed patronage, even in difficult times, would remain the benchmark against which later Sikh courtly traditions would judge their own claims to warrior status
<ref name="SinghFenech2014">Purnima Dhavan; Pashaura Singh; Louis E. Fenech (27 March 2014). The Oxford Handbook of Sikh Studies. OUP Oxford. pp. 50–. ISBN 978-0-19-100411-7.,
, The most important part a simple glance over most of these books will tell that the writers here explain the Sikh centric literature and are more related to Sikh community claims to warrior hood.The Guru certainly draw many facets from Indo-Persian, Indo-Timurid, and Rajput courtly but not all..
.The last guru, Gobind Singh (1666-1708), like other Punjab chiefs, variously used and resisted Mughal rule. Although defeated by Aurangzeb at the end of his reign, Gobind appealed to the new emperor, in vain, for restoration for his lands.
Just small advice to avoid WP:TLDR |
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