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For the sake of clarifying the conflicting views on this matter I will present relevant excerpts here over the next few days. Please place any commentary you may have at the end of this section in Discussion relating to the above sources so things don't get muddled with comments in each sub-section. Semitransgenic ( talk) 13:35, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
In London we heard it from the Swiss center, because Bhagwan's plane had to stop in Switzerland en route to New Jersey. At that this time the offical line was that he was sick, and had gone to America for an operation. Strelly (1987) p. 320
For about six months the majority of sannyasins thought that Bhagwan really had gone to America becasue he needed a back operation. The fiction of a "back ailment" soon began to crumble when newspaper stories featured Bhagwan's delight in learning to drive the roads around Montclair. This was Sheela's first major fumble: She had brought Bhagwan in to America on the pre-text that he was ill; so his visa was a tourist one, with a rider stating that he was here for medical treatment. Strelly (1987) p. 322
For a brief time sannyasins bought the fiction that Bhagwan was ill and in seclusion. But then came the newspaper stories of his driving lessons, of his trip to the New York center. And people did love to hear of the day-to-day antics that he would get up to. Strelly (1987) p. 325
Bhagwan had said, "if you need to lie, or you need to do things to get to another end, that's fine." So everybody was used to hearing one story after another - often flatly contradictory - to rumour and gossip; so although they initially reacted with worry to the story of Bhagwan's medical problems, they were just as quick to accept that, based on newspaper reports, he clearly was in fine fettle. Strelly (1987) p. 326
The official word was that Sheela wanted Rajneesh to come to America for his health. His diabetes and asthma and allergies were out of control. His coughing supposedly aggravated his back condition, perhaps causing a disc to herniate. Several specialists had attended Rajneesh in India including Dr. James Cyriax, whom Devaraj had flown form London. Sannyasins were told publicly by Sheela, not Cyriax, that Rajneesh might have died if he had stayed in India. In America, he would find the specialist treatment he needed. Rajneesh would, sannyasins were told, return to Poona after four months, perhaps after he had undergone an operation. Gordon (1987) p. 93-94
Not all was peace and silence though...and various threats to Bhagwans's life were recieved at the ashram. Indeed on 28 May arson destroyed a Rajneesh Foundation book storage warehouse near Poona. At the same time Bhagwan's health was allegedly deteriorating, and on 1 June 1981 Bhagwan's last satsang took place. Mullan (1983) pp. 31
To begin with there is an obvious contradication running through much of the [petition to gain status as a third preference religious worker], namely that Bhagwan was too sick to carry out his religious work, and yet he really didn't need medical attention in the USA becasue he wasn't that sick. Mullan (1983) p. 135
Rajneeshee doctors an lawyers later testified that the guru had recovered slowly in the salubrious air of America. An ex-sannyasin who had accompanied him, however, told the INS that he had insisted on taking a limousinse rather than an ambulance from Kennedy airport and a week after his arrival was walking around the garden at the Chidvilas center and driving his Rolls-Royce. This testimony - combined with the fact that the guru never consulted an outside doctor in the United States [ the reason for his visit ] - quite understandably caused INS officials to suspect that Rajneesh had never been all that sick and was certainly not at deaths door.
Just why the guru came to the United States became a matter of pressing interest to the Portland bureau of the U.S. Immigration and Naturalisation Service a year and a half later when he applied for permanent residency. His application for a tourist visa in Bombay stated that he required medical treatment in the United States. Laxmi had written the American consul that he required an operation on his back, and Sheela in conversation with the consul had stressed the emergency nature of the request: the man, she said, was about to croak. It is true that Rajneesh had fallen ill in the spring of 1981. His allergies, his asthma, and his diabetes had worsened and sapped his energies; finally, persistent coughing began to affect an old back injury – a prolapsed disk – and this caused him severe pain. Indian doctors and one of the world's leading orthopedic surgeons, brought in from England to treat him, testified to his condition. However, on arrival in the United States, Rajneesh did not go to a hospital or seek any outside medical treatment - and at no time was he seen by any but sannyasin doctors. Rajneeshee lawyers later explained this apparent discrepancy by the fact that his doctors had determined that there was a significant risk that he might require surgery - though this would be dangerous - but that in the United States his condition had improved so much that he did not. The INS, however contended that the guru had a preconceived intent to remain in the United States, and that false statements had been made on his application.
On arrival he pleaded innocent to all charges and was released on $500,000 cash bail to go back to the ranch. His lawyers were, however, cutting a deal with the U.S. attorney's office, and on November 14 he returned to Portland and pleaded guilty to two felonies: making false statements to the authorities in 1980 and concealing his intent to reside in the United States. FitzGerald (1987) p. 365.
Immigration charges were the eventual downfall of the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. He entered the country on a limited medical visa. Protecting his stay required a shift to claiming sanctuary as a religious leader. Rajneeshees oscillated on this issue. At times they claimed the Bhagwan as leader of the group and then, in 1985, asserted that he had no knowledge of the directions of its development and that it was not a religion. Presence of foreign nationals, many recently married to Americans, prompted INS (the Immigration and Naturalization Service) to investigate the possibility of a "marriage market." The Bhagwan pleaded guilty to two charges of making false statements to federal officials (of 35 charges raised), though he denied guilt after his return to India. His penalty was a $400,000 fine, a suspended 10 year sentence, and five years of probation. Carter (1987) p. 161
See quoted passage added above. Jayen 466 23:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I'll reproduce the passage just added here, for convenience:
In February 1981, Bhagwan hurt his back badly. Lectures were cancelled, and instead sannyasis were invited to attend silent 'satsangs', where they simply sat in the presence of their master's empty chair. [Note that Milne's timing is off here; apart from a brief 10-day experiment in 1979, satsangs began on 1 May 1981, according to multiple sources.] Two ashram Rolfing experts were called in to see if they could rectify Bhagwan's problem, but they could not help. I was asked to treat him as a 'last resort', but Bhagwan had never been a believer in alternative medicine, and the manipulation I gave had little effect. Eventually, and at vast expense, a leading British orthopaedic surgeon, James Cyriax, was flown out from Harley Street to look at Bhagwan's back. Somendra, living in London at the time, paid his first class fare. He administered more manipulation and gave epidural injections which, Bhagwan later claimed, only gave temporary relief. "It was Valium that cured me" was his final verdict. While he was confined to his room, Sheela, now his mouthpiece, announced to a meeting of group leaders, therapists and heads of department that Bhagwan had 'retired', and would not be speaking in public again [that was 10 April]. [...] After about a month of immobility, Bhagwan emerged from his room to resume his seat in the silent satsangs [1 May]. He was very shaky, and was sitting now in a specially-made chair.
— Milne, p. 184
Jayen 466 23:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
First off, I note that you are severely misrepresenting Mullan in the above. Mullan is not arguing that there is "an obvious contradication running through much of the [petition to gain status as a third preference religious worker]" (your insertion).
Mullan is arguing that there is an obvious contradiction running through the accusations the INS raised.
The INS argued that Osho was ill, when that provided a reason to deny him a visa as a religious worker (he was too ill to work as a religious worker), and argued that he was not ill when that served their argument (Osho had come to the States under false pretences). Please reread page 135 of Mullan. Jayen 466 18:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
You are emphasising various parts of FitzGerald at the expense of others. I could easily choose to embolden It is true that Rajneesh had fallen ill in the spring of 1981. His allergies, his asthma, and his diabetes had worsened and sapped his energies; finally, persistent coughing began to affect an old back injury – a prolapsed disk – and this caused him severe pain. Indian doctors and one of the world's leading orthopedic surgeons, brought in from England to treat him, testified to his condition in the excerpt you posted above. You have also omitted another section in FitzGerald which follows your first quote from her that you gave above:
Rajneeshee doctors and lawyers later testified that the guru had recovered slowly in the salubrious air of America. An ex-sannyasin who had accompanied him told the INS, however, that the guru had insisted on taking a limousine rather than an ambulance from Kennedy Airport to Montclair, and that a week after the arrival he was walking around the garden at the Chidvilas Center and driving a Rolls-Royce. This testimony – combined with the fact that the guru never consulted an outside doctor in the United States – understandably caused INS officials to suspect that Rajneesh had never been as sick as he had said and was certainly not near death. To read Rajneesh's official biography was, however, to learn that there had been similar crises in the guru's life and other visits to death's door.
The following narrative by FitzGerald details regular crises and death-like experiences at seven-year intervals, including one almost exactly seven years prior:
He moved to Poona on March 21st, suffering from allergies and acute asthma – illnesses often thought to be psychosomatic in origin. After giving a course of lectures on the Bhagavad Gita in Hindi, he went into almost complete silence and, to everyone's amazement, asked to be returned to Bombay. At the end of April, however, he recovered and began to stroll in the Poona gardens, seeming to like his new surroundings. But he stopped giving meditations in person and thereafter gave only lectures and darshans.
FitzGerald covers various angles, and that is what we should do here and I believe have done. If you want, we can add FitzGerald's "seven-year itch theory" as well. Jayen 466 18:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I would like to add that the theory that the illness was "all made up" ignores the testimony by Milne, the most hostile source around, who recalls personally giving unsuccessful osteopathic treatment to Osho. Jayen 466 19:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC
Though the charges against Rajneesh seemed grave – convictions on the thirty-five felony counts on which he was indicted could have put him in jail for 175 years – they were, on close examination, flimsy. Thirty-three counts alleged in vague and general terms, that Rajneesh participated in a conspiracy along with Sheela, Vidya, Arup, Karuna, and three other sannyasins to "aid, abet, counsel, command, induce and cause" twelve sannyasin couples to enter into "sham marriages." The thirty-fourth count alleged that in his October 21, 1981, application for an extension of his temporary visa, Rajneesh "falsified, covered up and concealed" the fact of his "intention" to remain permanently in the United States. The thirty-fifth count alleged that on October 14, 1982, in an interview with the INS in Portland, he "knowingly and willfully" made "false, fictitious and fraudulent statements" by declaring "that he had never discussed immigration to the United States with anyone prior to coming to the United States.
As I read through the indictments and consulted with neutral immigration lawyers and former INS officials, it seemed that the INS was reaching pretty far to arrest Rajneesh. He might well have known about the sham marriages, but I didn't see how, apart from taped evidence of a conversation with Sheela, this, or his aiding and abetting them, could be proved. The people I spoke with were even more dubious about the other two counts. None of them recalled anyone who had previously been indicted for, let alone convicted of, concealing an intention to remain permanently at the time he applied for a nonimmigrant visa, or for discussing immigration prior to coming to America.— Gordon, p.199
Osho made an Alford plea to two of the 35 charges: one count of intending to remain in the US, and one count of conspiring to have his followers stay illegally in the country (Gordon, p. 201). Jayen 466 15:47, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
on November 14 he returned to Portland and pleaded guilty to two felonies: making false statements to the authorities in 1980 and concealing his intent to reside in the United States. FitzGerald (1987) p. 365.
Jayen 466 16:28, 16 September 2008 (UTC)... pleaded guilty to two felony charges: making false statements to the immigration authorities in 1981, and concealing his intent to reside in the United States.
— The New Yorker, 29 Sept. 1986, p. 111
Please do not edit other editors comments! jalal ( talk) 15:24, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Just for reference and comparison, there is a useful article on the same subject at encyclopedia.com, from Gale's Encyclopedia of World Biography. Jayen 466 17:42, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I would recommend the visa and plea issues be tabled for a week or two. Things are starting to get more than a bit contentious and it would be of benefit to everyone if the topic was revisited after a little time for perspective and cool-down is permitted. There are plenty of other points for discussion and improvement that could be addressed in the mean time. In general, everyone should try to remain polite, constructive and focused on improving the article. Avoid side discussions about the general topic and expounding on the topic in-depth. After returning to the issue, it may be helpful if the general points raised by the body of reliable sources are summarized. I believe everyone here is familiar with what the sources have to say about the matter. After a break, it would be appropriate to try and hash out how the information should be presented in the article. If there are conflicting accounts, avoid relating the views only presented by a small minority of the sources and explicitly attribute conflicting views. Continuing to push the issue at the current time would seem to only aggravate issues, rather than bringing things down a notch. Revisit the topic when heads are a bit cooler and tongues a bit friendlier. The issue and article will still be here in a week or two. Vassyana ( talk) 09:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Semitransgenic ( talk) 14:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
According to my analysis, the article lists 201 different source locations. Of these, 35 (not 93) are pages in Fox. However, it is true that some of these pages have multiple citations. Overall, the article has, according to my reckoning, 347 individual source citations. Of those, 98 are to Fox. So there would seem to be some potential justification in raising the question of undue weight. To check if this is borne out by the facts, let us look at what is actually cited to Fox, taking each citation in turn, from the beginning.
This covers the first 33 citations to Fox. As the article grew, I used Fox as a convenience cite for several reasons: Her book is short and contains the essential outline of Osho's life. Second, it is, unlike FitzGerald or Carter, strictly choronological, making it easy to find things. Third, having been written quite recently, it is one of the few books that covers all of Osho's life, from his birth to his death. Fourth, along with FitzGerald, Fox was one of the first sources I bought for working on this article.
There is nothing cited to Fox in the above that could not just as easily be cited to Carter, FitzGerald, Joshi, or Gordon.
CESNUR is an organisation of mainstream scholars of religion. According to this Oxford University Press publication, CESNUR is a recommended source of objective information on new religious movements. The same publication also mentions that Massimo Introvigne lectures at the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross in Rome.
"Judith Fox (= Judith Thompson, = Judith Coney) holds a doctorate in the sociology of religion from the London School of Economics, University of London. For more than twenty years, she has researched new religions, culminating in such books as The Way of the Heart: A Study of Rajneeshism and Sahaja Yoga. She edits a series on new religions from Curzon Press." [1] Jayen 466 16:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Note that this thread has been cross-posted to
Jayen 466 16:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I honestly can't see what you're getting at, Semitransgenic. As far as I can see from a quick survey, Judith Fox has a degree in Religious Studies and Anthropology, an M.Sc., a doctorate in the Sociology of Religion, she taught at London University's Study of Religions Department, previously produced a book on the subject of this article (as yet unreferenced here) with Paul Heelas, (The Way of the Heart: The Rajneesh Movement, mentioned e.g. here in [ Aveling), she contributed a paper entitled Recent changes in Rajneeshism to the Journal of Contemporary Religion, and contributed a chapter covering Osho to this 2000 State University of New York Press publication. We cite few, if any, authors in this article who have a longer track record of researching Osho than Fox has. And the cites above, like the number of his siblings, the ashram earning money with therapy groups, some of his disciples engaging in drug running and prostitution, Osho giving morning discourses, Osho talking about AIDS, etc., are not Fox's views, but facts reported by her, and many other authors. I'll grant you that much of the teaching section is sourced to Fox, but that is because she gives the most complete overview. Jayen 466 21:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Is there something that prevents the use of alternate sources to provide greater diversity in references cited for the reader? I appreciate that certain sources will simply be easier to use and somewhat valuable as a reference because they provide a clear overview of a subject. However, we should avoid being overly reliant on a single source, especially in such a potentially contentious article. It can lead to claims of bias and undue weight, which are often legitimate concerns. If the material can be cited to a wider variety sources, diversifying the citations a bit will be of benefit to the article and the editing climate. Vassyana ( talk) 19:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Earlier sources like Prasad (which I don't have) may talk more about this; I believe there was more emphasis on the heart in his early talks. Jayen 466 23:19, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
other than those attributable to Osho, and published works in English only.
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I would also suggest the creation of a list of works that offer overviews of Osho's teachings that are not included in Fox, with a list of relevant sections. Amongst others that would include Carter, Goldman, Metha & Desai, Mullan, Urban.
Semitransgenic (
talk)
10:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Jayen, I notice you have removed the articles weighting tag, I am considering placing a new one in the teachings section. I appreciate you are addressing the issues raised but I'm still not sure the weighting is healthy just yet.Perhaps you are still planning to add material that will counter balance this. By my calculation, approx., the distribution is as follows.
What is your view? Semitransgenic ( talk) 18:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 12 |
For the sake of clarifying the conflicting views on this matter I will present relevant excerpts here over the next few days. Please place any commentary you may have at the end of this section in Discussion relating to the above sources so things don't get muddled with comments in each sub-section. Semitransgenic ( talk) 13:35, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
In London we heard it from the Swiss center, because Bhagwan's plane had to stop in Switzerland en route to New Jersey. At that this time the offical line was that he was sick, and had gone to America for an operation. Strelly (1987) p. 320
For about six months the majority of sannyasins thought that Bhagwan really had gone to America becasue he needed a back operation. The fiction of a "back ailment" soon began to crumble when newspaper stories featured Bhagwan's delight in learning to drive the roads around Montclair. This was Sheela's first major fumble: She had brought Bhagwan in to America on the pre-text that he was ill; so his visa was a tourist one, with a rider stating that he was here for medical treatment. Strelly (1987) p. 322
For a brief time sannyasins bought the fiction that Bhagwan was ill and in seclusion. But then came the newspaper stories of his driving lessons, of his trip to the New York center. And people did love to hear of the day-to-day antics that he would get up to. Strelly (1987) p. 325
Bhagwan had said, "if you need to lie, or you need to do things to get to another end, that's fine." So everybody was used to hearing one story after another - often flatly contradictory - to rumour and gossip; so although they initially reacted with worry to the story of Bhagwan's medical problems, they were just as quick to accept that, based on newspaper reports, he clearly was in fine fettle. Strelly (1987) p. 326
The official word was that Sheela wanted Rajneesh to come to America for his health. His diabetes and asthma and allergies were out of control. His coughing supposedly aggravated his back condition, perhaps causing a disc to herniate. Several specialists had attended Rajneesh in India including Dr. James Cyriax, whom Devaraj had flown form London. Sannyasins were told publicly by Sheela, not Cyriax, that Rajneesh might have died if he had stayed in India. In America, he would find the specialist treatment he needed. Rajneesh would, sannyasins were told, return to Poona after four months, perhaps after he had undergone an operation. Gordon (1987) p. 93-94
Not all was peace and silence though...and various threats to Bhagwans's life were recieved at the ashram. Indeed on 28 May arson destroyed a Rajneesh Foundation book storage warehouse near Poona. At the same time Bhagwan's health was allegedly deteriorating, and on 1 June 1981 Bhagwan's last satsang took place. Mullan (1983) pp. 31
To begin with there is an obvious contradication running through much of the [petition to gain status as a third preference religious worker], namely that Bhagwan was too sick to carry out his religious work, and yet he really didn't need medical attention in the USA becasue he wasn't that sick. Mullan (1983) p. 135
Rajneeshee doctors an lawyers later testified that the guru had recovered slowly in the salubrious air of America. An ex-sannyasin who had accompanied him, however, told the INS that he had insisted on taking a limousinse rather than an ambulance from Kennedy airport and a week after his arrival was walking around the garden at the Chidvilas center and driving his Rolls-Royce. This testimony - combined with the fact that the guru never consulted an outside doctor in the United States [ the reason for his visit ] - quite understandably caused INS officials to suspect that Rajneesh had never been all that sick and was certainly not at deaths door.
Just why the guru came to the United States became a matter of pressing interest to the Portland bureau of the U.S. Immigration and Naturalisation Service a year and a half later when he applied for permanent residency. His application for a tourist visa in Bombay stated that he required medical treatment in the United States. Laxmi had written the American consul that he required an operation on his back, and Sheela in conversation with the consul had stressed the emergency nature of the request: the man, she said, was about to croak. It is true that Rajneesh had fallen ill in the spring of 1981. His allergies, his asthma, and his diabetes had worsened and sapped his energies; finally, persistent coughing began to affect an old back injury – a prolapsed disk – and this caused him severe pain. Indian doctors and one of the world's leading orthopedic surgeons, brought in from England to treat him, testified to his condition. However, on arrival in the United States, Rajneesh did not go to a hospital or seek any outside medical treatment - and at no time was he seen by any but sannyasin doctors. Rajneeshee lawyers later explained this apparent discrepancy by the fact that his doctors had determined that there was a significant risk that he might require surgery - though this would be dangerous - but that in the United States his condition had improved so much that he did not. The INS, however contended that the guru had a preconceived intent to remain in the United States, and that false statements had been made on his application.
On arrival he pleaded innocent to all charges and was released on $500,000 cash bail to go back to the ranch. His lawyers were, however, cutting a deal with the U.S. attorney's office, and on November 14 he returned to Portland and pleaded guilty to two felonies: making false statements to the authorities in 1980 and concealing his intent to reside in the United States. FitzGerald (1987) p. 365.
Immigration charges were the eventual downfall of the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. He entered the country on a limited medical visa. Protecting his stay required a shift to claiming sanctuary as a religious leader. Rajneeshees oscillated on this issue. At times they claimed the Bhagwan as leader of the group and then, in 1985, asserted that he had no knowledge of the directions of its development and that it was not a religion. Presence of foreign nationals, many recently married to Americans, prompted INS (the Immigration and Naturalization Service) to investigate the possibility of a "marriage market." The Bhagwan pleaded guilty to two charges of making false statements to federal officials (of 35 charges raised), though he denied guilt after his return to India. His penalty was a $400,000 fine, a suspended 10 year sentence, and five years of probation. Carter (1987) p. 161
See quoted passage added above. Jayen 466 23:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I'll reproduce the passage just added here, for convenience:
In February 1981, Bhagwan hurt his back badly. Lectures were cancelled, and instead sannyasis were invited to attend silent 'satsangs', where they simply sat in the presence of their master's empty chair. [Note that Milne's timing is off here; apart from a brief 10-day experiment in 1979, satsangs began on 1 May 1981, according to multiple sources.] Two ashram Rolfing experts were called in to see if they could rectify Bhagwan's problem, but they could not help. I was asked to treat him as a 'last resort', but Bhagwan had never been a believer in alternative medicine, and the manipulation I gave had little effect. Eventually, and at vast expense, a leading British orthopaedic surgeon, James Cyriax, was flown out from Harley Street to look at Bhagwan's back. Somendra, living in London at the time, paid his first class fare. He administered more manipulation and gave epidural injections which, Bhagwan later claimed, only gave temporary relief. "It was Valium that cured me" was his final verdict. While he was confined to his room, Sheela, now his mouthpiece, announced to a meeting of group leaders, therapists and heads of department that Bhagwan had 'retired', and would not be speaking in public again [that was 10 April]. [...] After about a month of immobility, Bhagwan emerged from his room to resume his seat in the silent satsangs [1 May]. He was very shaky, and was sitting now in a specially-made chair.
— Milne, p. 184
Jayen 466 23:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
First off, I note that you are severely misrepresenting Mullan in the above. Mullan is not arguing that there is "an obvious contradication running through much of the [petition to gain status as a third preference religious worker]" (your insertion).
Mullan is arguing that there is an obvious contradiction running through the accusations the INS raised.
The INS argued that Osho was ill, when that provided a reason to deny him a visa as a religious worker (he was too ill to work as a religious worker), and argued that he was not ill when that served their argument (Osho had come to the States under false pretences). Please reread page 135 of Mullan. Jayen 466 18:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
You are emphasising various parts of FitzGerald at the expense of others. I could easily choose to embolden It is true that Rajneesh had fallen ill in the spring of 1981. His allergies, his asthma, and his diabetes had worsened and sapped his energies; finally, persistent coughing began to affect an old back injury – a prolapsed disk – and this caused him severe pain. Indian doctors and one of the world's leading orthopedic surgeons, brought in from England to treat him, testified to his condition in the excerpt you posted above. You have also omitted another section in FitzGerald which follows your first quote from her that you gave above:
Rajneeshee doctors and lawyers later testified that the guru had recovered slowly in the salubrious air of America. An ex-sannyasin who had accompanied him told the INS, however, that the guru had insisted on taking a limousine rather than an ambulance from Kennedy Airport to Montclair, and that a week after the arrival he was walking around the garden at the Chidvilas Center and driving a Rolls-Royce. This testimony – combined with the fact that the guru never consulted an outside doctor in the United States – understandably caused INS officials to suspect that Rajneesh had never been as sick as he had said and was certainly not near death. To read Rajneesh's official biography was, however, to learn that there had been similar crises in the guru's life and other visits to death's door.
The following narrative by FitzGerald details regular crises and death-like experiences at seven-year intervals, including one almost exactly seven years prior:
He moved to Poona on March 21st, suffering from allergies and acute asthma – illnesses often thought to be psychosomatic in origin. After giving a course of lectures on the Bhagavad Gita in Hindi, he went into almost complete silence and, to everyone's amazement, asked to be returned to Bombay. At the end of April, however, he recovered and began to stroll in the Poona gardens, seeming to like his new surroundings. But he stopped giving meditations in person and thereafter gave only lectures and darshans.
FitzGerald covers various angles, and that is what we should do here and I believe have done. If you want, we can add FitzGerald's "seven-year itch theory" as well. Jayen 466 18:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
I would like to add that the theory that the illness was "all made up" ignores the testimony by Milne, the most hostile source around, who recalls personally giving unsuccessful osteopathic treatment to Osho. Jayen 466 19:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC
Though the charges against Rajneesh seemed grave – convictions on the thirty-five felony counts on which he was indicted could have put him in jail for 175 years – they were, on close examination, flimsy. Thirty-three counts alleged in vague and general terms, that Rajneesh participated in a conspiracy along with Sheela, Vidya, Arup, Karuna, and three other sannyasins to "aid, abet, counsel, command, induce and cause" twelve sannyasin couples to enter into "sham marriages." The thirty-fourth count alleged that in his October 21, 1981, application for an extension of his temporary visa, Rajneesh "falsified, covered up and concealed" the fact of his "intention" to remain permanently in the United States. The thirty-fifth count alleged that on October 14, 1982, in an interview with the INS in Portland, he "knowingly and willfully" made "false, fictitious and fraudulent statements" by declaring "that he had never discussed immigration to the United States with anyone prior to coming to the United States.
As I read through the indictments and consulted with neutral immigration lawyers and former INS officials, it seemed that the INS was reaching pretty far to arrest Rajneesh. He might well have known about the sham marriages, but I didn't see how, apart from taped evidence of a conversation with Sheela, this, or his aiding and abetting them, could be proved. The people I spoke with were even more dubious about the other two counts. None of them recalled anyone who had previously been indicted for, let alone convicted of, concealing an intention to remain permanently at the time he applied for a nonimmigrant visa, or for discussing immigration prior to coming to America.— Gordon, p.199
Osho made an Alford plea to two of the 35 charges: one count of intending to remain in the US, and one count of conspiring to have his followers stay illegally in the country (Gordon, p. 201). Jayen 466 15:47, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
on November 14 he returned to Portland and pleaded guilty to two felonies: making false statements to the authorities in 1980 and concealing his intent to reside in the United States. FitzGerald (1987) p. 365.
Jayen 466 16:28, 16 September 2008 (UTC)... pleaded guilty to two felony charges: making false statements to the immigration authorities in 1981, and concealing his intent to reside in the United States.
— The New Yorker, 29 Sept. 1986, p. 111
Please do not edit other editors comments! jalal ( talk) 15:24, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Just for reference and comparison, there is a useful article on the same subject at encyclopedia.com, from Gale's Encyclopedia of World Biography. Jayen 466 17:42, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I would recommend the visa and plea issues be tabled for a week or two. Things are starting to get more than a bit contentious and it would be of benefit to everyone if the topic was revisited after a little time for perspective and cool-down is permitted. There are plenty of other points for discussion and improvement that could be addressed in the mean time. In general, everyone should try to remain polite, constructive and focused on improving the article. Avoid side discussions about the general topic and expounding on the topic in-depth. After returning to the issue, it may be helpful if the general points raised by the body of reliable sources are summarized. I believe everyone here is familiar with what the sources have to say about the matter. After a break, it would be appropriate to try and hash out how the information should be presented in the article. If there are conflicting accounts, avoid relating the views only presented by a small minority of the sources and explicitly attribute conflicting views. Continuing to push the issue at the current time would seem to only aggravate issues, rather than bringing things down a notch. Revisit the topic when heads are a bit cooler and tongues a bit friendlier. The issue and article will still be here in a week or two. Vassyana ( talk) 09:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Semitransgenic ( talk) 14:08, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
According to my analysis, the article lists 201 different source locations. Of these, 35 (not 93) are pages in Fox. However, it is true that some of these pages have multiple citations. Overall, the article has, according to my reckoning, 347 individual source citations. Of those, 98 are to Fox. So there would seem to be some potential justification in raising the question of undue weight. To check if this is borne out by the facts, let us look at what is actually cited to Fox, taking each citation in turn, from the beginning.
This covers the first 33 citations to Fox. As the article grew, I used Fox as a convenience cite for several reasons: Her book is short and contains the essential outline of Osho's life. Second, it is, unlike FitzGerald or Carter, strictly choronological, making it easy to find things. Third, having been written quite recently, it is one of the few books that covers all of Osho's life, from his birth to his death. Fourth, along with FitzGerald, Fox was one of the first sources I bought for working on this article.
There is nothing cited to Fox in the above that could not just as easily be cited to Carter, FitzGerald, Joshi, or Gordon.
CESNUR is an organisation of mainstream scholars of religion. According to this Oxford University Press publication, CESNUR is a recommended source of objective information on new religious movements. The same publication also mentions that Massimo Introvigne lectures at the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross in Rome.
"Judith Fox (= Judith Thompson, = Judith Coney) holds a doctorate in the sociology of religion from the London School of Economics, University of London. For more than twenty years, she has researched new religions, culminating in such books as The Way of the Heart: A Study of Rajneeshism and Sahaja Yoga. She edits a series on new religions from Curzon Press." [1] Jayen 466 16:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Note that this thread has been cross-posted to
Jayen 466 16:46, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I honestly can't see what you're getting at, Semitransgenic. As far as I can see from a quick survey, Judith Fox has a degree in Religious Studies and Anthropology, an M.Sc., a doctorate in the Sociology of Religion, she taught at London University's Study of Religions Department, previously produced a book on the subject of this article (as yet unreferenced here) with Paul Heelas, (The Way of the Heart: The Rajneesh Movement, mentioned e.g. here in [ Aveling), she contributed a paper entitled Recent changes in Rajneeshism to the Journal of Contemporary Religion, and contributed a chapter covering Osho to this 2000 State University of New York Press publication. We cite few, if any, authors in this article who have a longer track record of researching Osho than Fox has. And the cites above, like the number of his siblings, the ashram earning money with therapy groups, some of his disciples engaging in drug running and prostitution, Osho giving morning discourses, Osho talking about AIDS, etc., are not Fox's views, but facts reported by her, and many other authors. I'll grant you that much of the teaching section is sourced to Fox, but that is because she gives the most complete overview. Jayen 466 21:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
Is there something that prevents the use of alternate sources to provide greater diversity in references cited for the reader? I appreciate that certain sources will simply be easier to use and somewhat valuable as a reference because they provide a clear overview of a subject. However, we should avoid being overly reliant on a single source, especially in such a potentially contentious article. It can lead to claims of bias and undue weight, which are often legitimate concerns. If the material can be cited to a wider variety sources, diversifying the citations a bit will be of benefit to the article and the editing climate. Vassyana ( talk) 19:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Earlier sources like Prasad (which I don't have) may talk more about this; I believe there was more emphasis on the heart in his early talks. Jayen 466 23:19, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
other than those attributable to Osho, and published works in English only.
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I would also suggest the creation of a list of works that offer overviews of Osho's teachings that are not included in Fox, with a list of relevant sections. Amongst others that would include Carter, Goldman, Metha & Desai, Mullan, Urban.
Semitransgenic (
talk)
10:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Jayen, I notice you have removed the articles weighting tag, I am considering placing a new one in the teachings section. I appreciate you are addressing the issues raised but I'm still not sure the weighting is healthy just yet.Perhaps you are still planning to add material that will counter balance this. By my calculation, approx., the distribution is as follows.
What is your view? Semitransgenic ( talk) 18:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC)