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Why there is no mention in this article (neither in the Osho movement one) about the sexuality habits of Osho followers ? Female teens of 13 were sexualy abuse in the Osho commune of Amsterdam (and certainly in other commune aswell). This fact is unequivocally presented in the docmutenry of the dutch realisator Maroesja Perizonius Child of the commune [1] [2].
Solarain ( talk) 21:41, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
There is the more obvious charge that most children at Bhagwaan's communes were routinely neglected and basically just left to wander about. The deliberate anarchy of the adult's led to a very poor environment for raising children. Tim Guest's book for example would be a good example of this (He also describes children of 8-10 being sexually active at the ranch, including with the adults, so I would revise that figure downward.) http://www.amazon.com/My-Life-Orange-Growing-Guru/dp/015603106X-- 77.101.56.9 ( talk) 00:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Is it possible to say something about his strong homophoby ?
"If you want to be angry, be angry against Jesus Christ. Be angry against all the founders of religions. They all say, "Believe and you will be saved." And I say to you, "Believe and you are drowned." I say to you, "Doubt, because that is something that you have come with. Nature has provided you a method for inquiry. Doubt is a method of inquiry." In ten thousand years of religious history, religions have not contributed anything -- except AIDS, homosexuality, lesbianism, sadism, masochism, wars, discrimination -- all kinds of crimes: killing millions of people, burning living people. They are all based on belief. Science -- which is based on doubt -- has contributed within three hundred years everything from the smallest safety pin to the rocket that reaches to the moon. If you count the blessings that science has showered on you you will be surprised. Your clothes, your glasses, your watches, your health, your medicine, your food -- everything science has improved. Science has only been unsuccessful in improving you, because all the religions are sitting on your neck. I want you to get rid of all the religions and become a scientific seeker. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.218.94.86 ( talk) 20:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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Without doubt Jayen is an Osho disciple operating on this wiki item as a protector of Osho's name, I imagine this is why he also saw to it that the documentary that was linked to this page was pulled by Osho International, and why he resists the inclusion of anything that might be seen to tarnish his gurus image; irrespective of it's relevance or pertinence.
This also explains why the entire article rests heavily on citations from one publication (Fox) and a large number of self-published (and auto-biographical) items; despite the existence of dozenS of academic writings that offer a less rose tinted version of particular events.
There is a persecution complex at play here, I mean is there really any rational explanation for a sentence like this: His followers succeeded not only in rationalising the disastrous scandal in the United States, but in making Osho a heroic martyr who had been unjustly persecuted by the oppressive, imperialist U.S. government
So what is the point in all of this? Well simply that if this individual is allowed to monopolize this article and control how it is edited a "fair and balanced" perspective will never be arrived at. He has already attempted to quickly usher through a peer review but failed.From what I can see there is a suppression campaign being waged by Osho International Foundation. This is being aided and abetted by followers such as Swami Jayen.
Semitransgenic ( talk) 15:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the most surprising aspect of the Rajneesh phenomenon lies not so much in his scandalous career in America, but in his remarkable apotheosis and rebirth upon his return to India. A truly global Tantric guru, Rajneesh made the journey from India to America and back to India again, finally achieving even more success in his homeland, perhaps in large part because of his status as a figure who had a massive U. S. and European following. Rather incredibly, his followers were not only able to rationalize the disastrous scandal in the United States, but even to make Rajneesh a heroic martyr who had been unjustly persecuted by the oppressive imperialist U. S. government: “[The Ranch] was crushed from without by the Attorney General's office… like the marines in Lebanon, the Ranch was hit by hardball opposition and driven out. ” 122 ...
Rather remarkably, however, Osho seems to have become only more popular since his death. Indeed, he has published perhaps more books and received more acclaim as a disembodied photograph or video image than he ever did while still incarnate.
Publication Information: Book Title: Tantra: Sex, Secrecy Politics, and Power in the Study of Religion. Contributors: Hugh B. Urban - author. Publisher: University of California Press. Place of Publication: Berkeley, CA. Publication Year: 2003. Page Number: 242.
Jalal, for your reference, the relevant passage in Fox that this was sourced from is, "As the epitome of the alternative spiritual health resort, the Poona commune exudes prosperity and is becoming one of the main tourist attractions of India. Fifteen years earlier, the majority of ordinary South Asians wanted nothing to do with the commune; now they too are coming to pay their respects in increasing numbers." (Judith M. Fox, Osho Rajneesh, Studies in Contemporary Religion Series, Signature Books, 2000) -- Jayen 466 11:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Semi, the matter with the encounter groups is now mentioned twice – once in 1971-80, and once in the first sentence of 1981-1990. Chronologically, it belongs in the seventies, since the practice of allowing physical confrontation in the groups had been discontinued by January 1979 (FitzGerald, TNY, 22/9/86, p. 84, Fox p. 17). Re drug use, Fox mentions that drug use and even tobacco were banned in the ashram itself (Fox p. 18–19). However, quite a few visitors were hippies putting in a stopover in Pune on their India trip, and I dare say that smoking hasheesh might have been relatively common in that demographic in the seventies – if not in the ashram itself, then outside it. -- Jayen 466 11:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay, let's standardise on the Harvard format from now on. For ease of reference, I append the relevant section from the WP:HARV below:
Complete citations must be provided, in alphabetical order, in a References section following the text.
For a book: in the case of (Author 2005a) and (Author 2005b), this might be:
For an article: in the case of (Traynor 2005) or (The Guardian, December 17, 2005), this might be:
-- Jayen 466 19:44, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
As you've correctly noted, Carter contradicts himself. It's ironic that he has the cash amount to the dollar, but gains half a million in the space of a few pages.
OTOH, these here also make it 1 million --
Can't find a reference saying 1.5m. What have you got? -- Jayen 466 20:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
The following passage just added contains a number of inaccuracies. I propose we discuss these sections here and bring them up to scratch.
The group very soon ran into difficulty with the local community regarding land use laws and over time became increasingly antagonistic towards it's American neighbors. [1] They clashed first with the local residents of Antelopes peaceful retirement community, whom they attempted to displace and push out using terrorist tactics. These began initially with activities such as dumping animal parts on the lawns of local officials and then escalated, in an attempt to effect the outcome of county elections, [2] to a bioterror attack on the citizens of The Dalles, Oregon, using ( salmonella) [3]; an incident that resulted in the poisoning of seven hundred and fifty individuals and which is one of only two confirmed terrorist uses of biological weapons to harm humans [4]
Osho ended his period of silence in October 1984. In July 1985, he resumed his daily public discourses in the commune's purpose-built, two-acre meditation hall. According to statements he made to the press, he did so against the wishes of Ma Anand Sheela (Sheela Silverman), his secretary and the commune’s top manager. [5] By this time the community had also come under serious investigation by the U.S government, specifically around the issue of the interlock of the Rajneesh Church and the city of Rajneeshpuram, and it's claim to tax-exempt status (in 1986, the state attorney general finally decided that Rajneeshpuram violated the church state separation clause of the Constitution). Osho and his disciples had also come under investigation for their various criminal activities - which included, among other charges, counts of electronic eavesdropping, immigration conspiracy, lying to federal officials, harboring fugitives, criminal conspiracy, first-degree assault, attempted murder, burglary, racketeering, and arson. [2]
The commune's management team (who were suspected of carrying out of said crimes) left the U.S. in September 1985, fleeing for Europe. Osho then convened a press conference and called on the authorities to undertake an investigation. This eventually led to the conviction of Ma Anand Sheela and several of her lieutenants. [6] Following this, in late October 1985, Osho was arrested in North Carolina as he was allegedly fleeing America, en route to the Bahamas. However, with the U.S. government having no evidence to prosecute Osho for more serious offenses, he was instead accused of immigration violations. Osho, on advice from his lawyers, entered an " Alford plea" – through which a suspect does not admit guilt, but does concede there is enough evidence to convict him. He was finally given a suspended sentence, fined $400,000, and deported from the United States with an order not to attempt to return for at least 5 years. [7] [6]
Although Osho was not directly implicated in the more serious crimes [6] his reputation suffered tremendously, especially in the West. [8]The movement, the state attorney general concluded, had become sociopathic. [2] At this point, with relation to the question of whether or not Osho had endorsed Sheela's criminal activities, even amongst some of his followers, opinion was divided; [9] others simply questioned Osho's intentional abdication of responsibility as a means of deflecting culpability for the actions of his disciples. [10]
In late December 1988, he said he no longer wished to be referred to as Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, and shortly afterwards, took the name Osho. This was undoubtedly a step to salvage his reputation and protect his personal charisma; the fall out from Sheela's conduct having the potential to both threaten and discredit his position. He at this point disassociated himself from the organization and religion, Rajneeshism, which had in effect suffered an institutional "loss of charisma." [10]
To be commented below. -- Jayen 466 00:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
The passage "... shortly afterwards, took the name Osho. This was undoubtedly a step to salvage his reputation and protect his personal charisma; the fall out from Sheela's conduct having the potential to both threaten and discredit his position. He at this point disassociated himself from the organization and religion, Rajneeshism, which had in effect suffered an institutional "loss of charisma."" is an anachronism; the name change occurred 1989, several years after said disassociation from Rajneeshism etc. The juxtaposition is yours, and not present in the source quoted. -- Jayen 466 02:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
funny you should bring this up because a lot of it uses your sources. So are you now disputing your own source material? Gimmie a break, show what's wrong then do your revert, as it stands it's better than the crap that was there orignally: "Using" sources does not mean copying <ref>source</ref> content and putting it into text that has nothing to do with what these sources say. Pages 63 and 64 of Carter (referenced three times in the proposed new text passages above as footnote [2]) cover Osho's relationship to the Janata government and Morarji Desai, and contain no comment on the time period you are writing about. This is getting quite tedious.
Your text continues,
Osho and his disciples had also come under investigation for their various criminal activities - which included, among other charges, counts of electronic eavesdropping, immigration conspiracy, lying to federal officials, harboring fugitives, criminal conspiracy, first-degree assault, attempted murder, burglary, racketeering, and arson. [2] The commune's management team (who were suspected of carrying out of said crimes) left the U.S. in September 1985, fleeing for Europe. Osho then convened a press conference and called on the authorities to undertake an investigation.
Again, the same source ref is given, which does not back up a single one of these statements. Moreover, the time scale is completely wrong. Osho and his disciples had not "come under investigation" for electronic eavesdropping, first-degree assault, attempted murder, or arson, and the commune management team in particular had not come under suspicion of any of these crimes when they left in September 1985. There were immigration-related investigations, and these were justified, since there were a number of sham marriages in the commune designed to circumvent immigration restrictions. Sheela and Co. apparently believed their arrest because of immigration-related matters was imminent, and this was one reason for their leaving when they did. The investigation of electronic eavesdropping, first-degree assault, attempted murder, and arson began after their leaving and after the September 16 1985 press conference, in which Osho told the media that he had, in the days following Sheela's departure, received information from sannyasins coming forward that crimes had been committed, and listed these in detail to the press – i.e. electronic eavesdropping, first-degree assault, attempted murder, the 1984 salmonella poisoning in The Dalles, and arson (Carter p. 230, FitzGerald, The New Yorker, 29 Sept. 1986, page 108). After coming forward with this information, at no time was Osho considered a suspect in these crimes. (In my view, it would have made no sense to convene the press to tell them of all these undiscovered crimes committed a full year prior if he had been the perpetrator.) In addition, the murder attempt had been directed against his personal physician, a person who enjoyed and continued to enjoy Osho's closest trust to the day Osho died, and the electronic eavesdropping activities extended to Osho's own bedroom. Again, no one suspected or accused Osho of having planned that one. Almost everything you have written here is mis-attributed, garbled and at variance with the relevant literature. -- Jayen 466 12:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
In relation to Osho's proclamation of innocence we find this: "That glib profession of innocence didn't impress all who heard it. After all, it was Sheela alone who had the privilege of private conversations with the guru during his self-imposed silence of three years. Furthermore, Sheela has been abroad this year, mostly in Europe and Australia. But Bhagwan insists that Sheela had "become addicted" to power and fame and was dissatisfied with playing second fiddle since he began to speak again.Skeptics, and enemies, wondered aloud whether the media-savvy Rajneesh and Sheela might have concocted the whole thing to defuse and divert immensely negative PR against the group, painting Sheela a scapegoat and Rajneesh the innocent victim of her ambitions. Others think he could be paving the way for leaving Oregon should current problems get too hot, sending Sheela and funds ahead. "The movement is in trouble," said Margaret Hill, former Antelope mayor, "and Bhagwan is trying this means to rescue it." A Hawaii librarian scoffed, "He can't think we're going to believe that he rides around in all those Cadillacs [sic] and runs those businesses and didn't know about these things. Nobody's that gullible." Her sentiment was echoed by Diane McDonald, a critic from Madras, Oregon: "It just doesn't wash." She noted a month ago Rajneesh himself publicly said of Sheela, "I have been preparing her like a sword. I told her to go out and cut as many heads as possible." http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1985/11/1985-11-08.shtml
The question of gullibility is a an important one, if we concede that Osho was an intelligent man (some might argue enlightened), how could he possibly have missed what was happening around him, did he really just watch cartoons, pop Valium, and inhale nitrous oxide while things were melting down outside? I'm sorry but it just does not add up. If this were a politician there would be no mercy with the accusations of corruption, and people would get to the bottom of it, why is this unacceptable in the case of an alleged holy-man? Religiosity is interfering with the process of analysis at hand, again that is why I find it difficult to accept that key editorial decisions should be determined by devotees. Semitransgenic ( talk) 18:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
The reasons I like the book by Fox are
That is in contrast to people like Urban – the other day I read this priceless description of Dynamic Meditation in a paper of his: ... a method called ‘Dynamic meditation’ (its original name was ‘Chaotic’ Meditation). As a kind of ‘microcosm of Rajneesh’s outlook’, its explicit purpose was to ‘shock habitual patterns of thought and behavior’, and so open the individual to ecstatic freedom and liberating bliss.69 This involved four stages: first, basic concentration on the breath to achieve a deep state of relaxation (!); second, letting the body go, ‘without restrictions’, ‘allowing the body to do whatever it wants’, including dancing, gyrating, laughing, crying, shrieking or rolling around on the ground, allowing the inner Shakti to move spontaneously through the body; third, asking oneself the question, ‘Who am I?’ (????) And fourth, entry into profound meditation, in which practitioners ‘merge with Cosmic Consciousness’ and realize the unity of the Self with Absolute Reality: in such a state, ‘you are no longer confined to anything . . . you have become infinite, liberated’. I don't know if you ever have done Dynamic Meditation, but if you have, you'll realise that this description of it bears only a mosts superficial and partial resemblance to the actual thing. So on second thoughts, I am inclined to agree with your assessment of Urban's scholarship in this field. ;-) There are excerpts of the book by Fox here; it's well worth the few quid it costs. Among other things, I had long planned to rewrite the section on Osho's philosophy drawing on the first chapter of this book, because it does quite a good job of covering the ground, but then got caught up in other things. -- Jayen 466 20:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I think the best way to deal with the POV issues might be to divide the article into three major parts:—
1. Biography, this to be written in as neutral and factual a tone as possible
2. Osho's philosophy
3. Reception, reflecting the various POVs that exist in the relevant literature (including Urban's view of a money-making scam, but also the more sympathetic academic views of Fox et al. and the published views of followers) with attribution to the respective authors
Generic issues (such as whether all "Godmen" are frauds etc.) should be covered elsewhere.
Any comment? -- Jayen 466 13:03, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I was asked for examples of improvements above and will use this section as an illustration of criticism that has been raised which does not relate to criminal charges and other aforementioned things.
I choose the teaching section as it is in sore need of additional references. It more or less relies on one reference which seems to have considerable bias. One of the things that should be pointed out is the imminent self contradiction and inconsistency - claimed by his followers as a feature - which has been widely critizied and which has been interpreted as signs of megalomania or resulting from drug abuse. (This does not seem far fetched when comparing some of his writings at young age to his later works.)
Some examples:
I could continue this for the whole teaching section. If you strip it down to the factual there is almost nothing left. ( 62.47.5.186 ( talk) 21:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC))
Looking at [6] I doubt that Osho should be called like this. Did he give himself that title? Was he merely called like this by his followers? Could this be considered offensive to traditional Hindus? I just immagine how I would perceive someone callling themself god and cannot see a big difference. Can someone clarify this? ( Tarsilion ( talk) 21:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC))
In one sentence, it says "Eventually the Jain community stopped inviting him because of his radical ideas." Then two paragraphs later, says that "he travelled throughout India, giving lectures critical of socialism and Gandhi, under the name Acharya Rajneesh (Acharya means "teacher"; Rajneesh was a nickname he had been given by his family." It does not give a source where or how he got the title "Acharya." It should be left out or clarified - as Acharya does not simply mean "teacher," and in the reference you used, it means different things depending on the religion. His family religion growing up was Jainism. The Jain definition for Acharya: is a monk who is one of the five revered panch-paremeshtis, and thus worthy of worship. The word "Suri" is equivalent to Acharya. An Acharya is the highest leader of a Jain order. He is the final authority in his monastic order and has the authority to ordain new monks and nuns. He is also authorized to consecrete new idols, although this authority is sometimes delegated to scholars designated by him."
(There are also two misspellings in the above paragraph that aren't corrected because they are copied verbatim)
Since the Jain community stopped inviting him, he could not have been appointed Acharya except by his own appointment, which has no validity. If you decide not to delete the Acharya title, then it needs to be explained that it was a self-stylized title he gave himself and his family gave him the Rajneesh title. 67.183.235.146 ( talk) 22:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC))
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help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
Why there is no mention in this article (neither in the Osho movement one) about the sexuality habits of Osho followers ? Female teens of 13 were sexualy abuse in the Osho commune of Amsterdam (and certainly in other commune aswell). This fact is unequivocally presented in the docmutenry of the dutch realisator Maroesja Perizonius Child of the commune [1] [2].
Solarain ( talk) 21:41, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
There is the more obvious charge that most children at Bhagwaan's communes were routinely neglected and basically just left to wander about. The deliberate anarchy of the adult's led to a very poor environment for raising children. Tim Guest's book for example would be a good example of this (He also describes children of 8-10 being sexually active at the ranch, including with the adults, so I would revise that figure downward.) http://www.amazon.com/My-Life-Orange-Growing-Guru/dp/015603106X-- 77.101.56.9 ( talk) 00:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Is it possible to say something about his strong homophoby ?
"If you want to be angry, be angry against Jesus Christ. Be angry against all the founders of religions. They all say, "Believe and you will be saved." And I say to you, "Believe and you are drowned." I say to you, "Doubt, because that is something that you have come with. Nature has provided you a method for inquiry. Doubt is a method of inquiry." In ten thousand years of religious history, religions have not contributed anything -- except AIDS, homosexuality, lesbianism, sadism, masochism, wars, discrimination -- all kinds of crimes: killing millions of people, burning living people. They are all based on belief. Science -- which is based on doubt -- has contributed within three hundred years everything from the smallest safety pin to the rocket that reaches to the moon. If you count the blessings that science has showered on you you will be surprised. Your clothes, your glasses, your watches, your health, your medicine, your food -- everything science has improved. Science has only been unsuccessful in improving you, because all the religions are sitting on your neck. I want you to get rid of all the religions and become a scientific seeker. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.218.94.86 ( talk) 20:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
Without doubt Jayen is an Osho disciple operating on this wiki item as a protector of Osho's name, I imagine this is why he also saw to it that the documentary that was linked to this page was pulled by Osho International, and why he resists the inclusion of anything that might be seen to tarnish his gurus image; irrespective of it's relevance or pertinence.
This also explains why the entire article rests heavily on citations from one publication (Fox) and a large number of self-published (and auto-biographical) items; despite the existence of dozenS of academic writings that offer a less rose tinted version of particular events.
There is a persecution complex at play here, I mean is there really any rational explanation for a sentence like this: His followers succeeded not only in rationalising the disastrous scandal in the United States, but in making Osho a heroic martyr who had been unjustly persecuted by the oppressive, imperialist U.S. government
So what is the point in all of this? Well simply that if this individual is allowed to monopolize this article and control how it is edited a "fair and balanced" perspective will never be arrived at. He has already attempted to quickly usher through a peer review but failed.From what I can see there is a suppression campaign being waged by Osho International Foundation. This is being aided and abetted by followers such as Swami Jayen.
Semitransgenic ( talk) 15:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the most surprising aspect of the Rajneesh phenomenon lies not so much in his scandalous career in America, but in his remarkable apotheosis and rebirth upon his return to India. A truly global Tantric guru, Rajneesh made the journey from India to America and back to India again, finally achieving even more success in his homeland, perhaps in large part because of his status as a figure who had a massive U. S. and European following. Rather incredibly, his followers were not only able to rationalize the disastrous scandal in the United States, but even to make Rajneesh a heroic martyr who had been unjustly persecuted by the oppressive imperialist U. S. government: “[The Ranch] was crushed from without by the Attorney General's office… like the marines in Lebanon, the Ranch was hit by hardball opposition and driven out. ” 122 ...
Rather remarkably, however, Osho seems to have become only more popular since his death. Indeed, he has published perhaps more books and received more acclaim as a disembodied photograph or video image than he ever did while still incarnate.
Publication Information: Book Title: Tantra: Sex, Secrecy Politics, and Power in the Study of Religion. Contributors: Hugh B. Urban - author. Publisher: University of California Press. Place of Publication: Berkeley, CA. Publication Year: 2003. Page Number: 242.
Jalal, for your reference, the relevant passage in Fox that this was sourced from is, "As the epitome of the alternative spiritual health resort, the Poona commune exudes prosperity and is becoming one of the main tourist attractions of India. Fifteen years earlier, the majority of ordinary South Asians wanted nothing to do with the commune; now they too are coming to pay their respects in increasing numbers." (Judith M. Fox, Osho Rajneesh, Studies in Contemporary Religion Series, Signature Books, 2000) -- Jayen 466 11:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Semi, the matter with the encounter groups is now mentioned twice – once in 1971-80, and once in the first sentence of 1981-1990. Chronologically, it belongs in the seventies, since the practice of allowing physical confrontation in the groups had been discontinued by January 1979 (FitzGerald, TNY, 22/9/86, p. 84, Fox p. 17). Re drug use, Fox mentions that drug use and even tobacco were banned in the ashram itself (Fox p. 18–19). However, quite a few visitors were hippies putting in a stopover in Pune on their India trip, and I dare say that smoking hasheesh might have been relatively common in that demographic in the seventies – if not in the ashram itself, then outside it. -- Jayen 466 11:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay, let's standardise on the Harvard format from now on. For ease of reference, I append the relevant section from the WP:HARV below:
Complete citations must be provided, in alphabetical order, in a References section following the text.
For a book: in the case of (Author 2005a) and (Author 2005b), this might be:
For an article: in the case of (Traynor 2005) or (The Guardian, December 17, 2005), this might be:
-- Jayen 466 19:44, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
As you've correctly noted, Carter contradicts himself. It's ironic that he has the cash amount to the dollar, but gains half a million in the space of a few pages.
OTOH, these here also make it 1 million --
Can't find a reference saying 1.5m. What have you got? -- Jayen 466 20:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
The following passage just added contains a number of inaccuracies. I propose we discuss these sections here and bring them up to scratch.
The group very soon ran into difficulty with the local community regarding land use laws and over time became increasingly antagonistic towards it's American neighbors. [1] They clashed first with the local residents of Antelopes peaceful retirement community, whom they attempted to displace and push out using terrorist tactics. These began initially with activities such as dumping animal parts on the lawns of local officials and then escalated, in an attempt to effect the outcome of county elections, [2] to a bioterror attack on the citizens of The Dalles, Oregon, using ( salmonella) [3]; an incident that resulted in the poisoning of seven hundred and fifty individuals and which is one of only two confirmed terrorist uses of biological weapons to harm humans [4]
Osho ended his period of silence in October 1984. In July 1985, he resumed his daily public discourses in the commune's purpose-built, two-acre meditation hall. According to statements he made to the press, he did so against the wishes of Ma Anand Sheela (Sheela Silverman), his secretary and the commune’s top manager. [5] By this time the community had also come under serious investigation by the U.S government, specifically around the issue of the interlock of the Rajneesh Church and the city of Rajneeshpuram, and it's claim to tax-exempt status (in 1986, the state attorney general finally decided that Rajneeshpuram violated the church state separation clause of the Constitution). Osho and his disciples had also come under investigation for their various criminal activities - which included, among other charges, counts of electronic eavesdropping, immigration conspiracy, lying to federal officials, harboring fugitives, criminal conspiracy, first-degree assault, attempted murder, burglary, racketeering, and arson. [2]
The commune's management team (who were suspected of carrying out of said crimes) left the U.S. in September 1985, fleeing for Europe. Osho then convened a press conference and called on the authorities to undertake an investigation. This eventually led to the conviction of Ma Anand Sheela and several of her lieutenants. [6] Following this, in late October 1985, Osho was arrested in North Carolina as he was allegedly fleeing America, en route to the Bahamas. However, with the U.S. government having no evidence to prosecute Osho for more serious offenses, he was instead accused of immigration violations. Osho, on advice from his lawyers, entered an " Alford plea" – through which a suspect does not admit guilt, but does concede there is enough evidence to convict him. He was finally given a suspended sentence, fined $400,000, and deported from the United States with an order not to attempt to return for at least 5 years. [7] [6]
Although Osho was not directly implicated in the more serious crimes [6] his reputation suffered tremendously, especially in the West. [8]The movement, the state attorney general concluded, had become sociopathic. [2] At this point, with relation to the question of whether or not Osho had endorsed Sheela's criminal activities, even amongst some of his followers, opinion was divided; [9] others simply questioned Osho's intentional abdication of responsibility as a means of deflecting culpability for the actions of his disciples. [10]
In late December 1988, he said he no longer wished to be referred to as Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, and shortly afterwards, took the name Osho. This was undoubtedly a step to salvage his reputation and protect his personal charisma; the fall out from Sheela's conduct having the potential to both threaten and discredit his position. He at this point disassociated himself from the organization and religion, Rajneeshism, which had in effect suffered an institutional "loss of charisma." [10]
To be commented below. -- Jayen 466 00:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
The passage "... shortly afterwards, took the name Osho. This was undoubtedly a step to salvage his reputation and protect his personal charisma; the fall out from Sheela's conduct having the potential to both threaten and discredit his position. He at this point disassociated himself from the organization and religion, Rajneeshism, which had in effect suffered an institutional "loss of charisma."" is an anachronism; the name change occurred 1989, several years after said disassociation from Rajneeshism etc. The juxtaposition is yours, and not present in the source quoted. -- Jayen 466 02:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
funny you should bring this up because a lot of it uses your sources. So are you now disputing your own source material? Gimmie a break, show what's wrong then do your revert, as it stands it's better than the crap that was there orignally: "Using" sources does not mean copying <ref>source</ref> content and putting it into text that has nothing to do with what these sources say. Pages 63 and 64 of Carter (referenced three times in the proposed new text passages above as footnote [2]) cover Osho's relationship to the Janata government and Morarji Desai, and contain no comment on the time period you are writing about. This is getting quite tedious.
Your text continues,
Osho and his disciples had also come under investigation for their various criminal activities - which included, among other charges, counts of electronic eavesdropping, immigration conspiracy, lying to federal officials, harboring fugitives, criminal conspiracy, first-degree assault, attempted murder, burglary, racketeering, and arson. [2] The commune's management team (who were suspected of carrying out of said crimes) left the U.S. in September 1985, fleeing for Europe. Osho then convened a press conference and called on the authorities to undertake an investigation.
Again, the same source ref is given, which does not back up a single one of these statements. Moreover, the time scale is completely wrong. Osho and his disciples had not "come under investigation" for electronic eavesdropping, first-degree assault, attempted murder, or arson, and the commune management team in particular had not come under suspicion of any of these crimes when they left in September 1985. There were immigration-related investigations, and these were justified, since there were a number of sham marriages in the commune designed to circumvent immigration restrictions. Sheela and Co. apparently believed their arrest because of immigration-related matters was imminent, and this was one reason for their leaving when they did. The investigation of electronic eavesdropping, first-degree assault, attempted murder, and arson began after their leaving and after the September 16 1985 press conference, in which Osho told the media that he had, in the days following Sheela's departure, received information from sannyasins coming forward that crimes had been committed, and listed these in detail to the press – i.e. electronic eavesdropping, first-degree assault, attempted murder, the 1984 salmonella poisoning in The Dalles, and arson (Carter p. 230, FitzGerald, The New Yorker, 29 Sept. 1986, page 108). After coming forward with this information, at no time was Osho considered a suspect in these crimes. (In my view, it would have made no sense to convene the press to tell them of all these undiscovered crimes committed a full year prior if he had been the perpetrator.) In addition, the murder attempt had been directed against his personal physician, a person who enjoyed and continued to enjoy Osho's closest trust to the day Osho died, and the electronic eavesdropping activities extended to Osho's own bedroom. Again, no one suspected or accused Osho of having planned that one. Almost everything you have written here is mis-attributed, garbled and at variance with the relevant literature. -- Jayen 466 12:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
In relation to Osho's proclamation of innocence we find this: "That glib profession of innocence didn't impress all who heard it. After all, it was Sheela alone who had the privilege of private conversations with the guru during his self-imposed silence of three years. Furthermore, Sheela has been abroad this year, mostly in Europe and Australia. But Bhagwan insists that Sheela had "become addicted" to power and fame and was dissatisfied with playing second fiddle since he began to speak again.Skeptics, and enemies, wondered aloud whether the media-savvy Rajneesh and Sheela might have concocted the whole thing to defuse and divert immensely negative PR against the group, painting Sheela a scapegoat and Rajneesh the innocent victim of her ambitions. Others think he could be paving the way for leaving Oregon should current problems get too hot, sending Sheela and funds ahead. "The movement is in trouble," said Margaret Hill, former Antelope mayor, "and Bhagwan is trying this means to rescue it." A Hawaii librarian scoffed, "He can't think we're going to believe that he rides around in all those Cadillacs [sic] and runs those businesses and didn't know about these things. Nobody's that gullible." Her sentiment was echoed by Diane McDonald, a critic from Madras, Oregon: "It just doesn't wash." She noted a month ago Rajneesh himself publicly said of Sheela, "I have been preparing her like a sword. I told her to go out and cut as many heads as possible." http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1985/11/1985-11-08.shtml
The question of gullibility is a an important one, if we concede that Osho was an intelligent man (some might argue enlightened), how could he possibly have missed what was happening around him, did he really just watch cartoons, pop Valium, and inhale nitrous oxide while things were melting down outside? I'm sorry but it just does not add up. If this were a politician there would be no mercy with the accusations of corruption, and people would get to the bottom of it, why is this unacceptable in the case of an alleged holy-man? Religiosity is interfering with the process of analysis at hand, again that is why I find it difficult to accept that key editorial decisions should be determined by devotees. Semitransgenic ( talk) 18:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
The reasons I like the book by Fox are
That is in contrast to people like Urban – the other day I read this priceless description of Dynamic Meditation in a paper of his: ... a method called ‘Dynamic meditation’ (its original name was ‘Chaotic’ Meditation). As a kind of ‘microcosm of Rajneesh’s outlook’, its explicit purpose was to ‘shock habitual patterns of thought and behavior’, and so open the individual to ecstatic freedom and liberating bliss.69 This involved four stages: first, basic concentration on the breath to achieve a deep state of relaxation (!); second, letting the body go, ‘without restrictions’, ‘allowing the body to do whatever it wants’, including dancing, gyrating, laughing, crying, shrieking or rolling around on the ground, allowing the inner Shakti to move spontaneously through the body; third, asking oneself the question, ‘Who am I?’ (????) And fourth, entry into profound meditation, in which practitioners ‘merge with Cosmic Consciousness’ and realize the unity of the Self with Absolute Reality: in such a state, ‘you are no longer confined to anything . . . you have become infinite, liberated’. I don't know if you ever have done Dynamic Meditation, but if you have, you'll realise that this description of it bears only a mosts superficial and partial resemblance to the actual thing. So on second thoughts, I am inclined to agree with your assessment of Urban's scholarship in this field. ;-) There are excerpts of the book by Fox here; it's well worth the few quid it costs. Among other things, I had long planned to rewrite the section on Osho's philosophy drawing on the first chapter of this book, because it does quite a good job of covering the ground, but then got caught up in other things. -- Jayen 466 20:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I think the best way to deal with the POV issues might be to divide the article into three major parts:—
1. Biography, this to be written in as neutral and factual a tone as possible
2. Osho's philosophy
3. Reception, reflecting the various POVs that exist in the relevant literature (including Urban's view of a money-making scam, but also the more sympathetic academic views of Fox et al. and the published views of followers) with attribution to the respective authors
Generic issues (such as whether all "Godmen" are frauds etc.) should be covered elsewhere.
Any comment? -- Jayen 466 13:03, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I was asked for examples of improvements above and will use this section as an illustration of criticism that has been raised which does not relate to criminal charges and other aforementioned things.
I choose the teaching section as it is in sore need of additional references. It more or less relies on one reference which seems to have considerable bias. One of the things that should be pointed out is the imminent self contradiction and inconsistency - claimed by his followers as a feature - which has been widely critizied and which has been interpreted as signs of megalomania or resulting from drug abuse. (This does not seem far fetched when comparing some of his writings at young age to his later works.)
Some examples:
I could continue this for the whole teaching section. If you strip it down to the factual there is almost nothing left. ( 62.47.5.186 ( talk) 21:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC))
Looking at [6] I doubt that Osho should be called like this. Did he give himself that title? Was he merely called like this by his followers? Could this be considered offensive to traditional Hindus? I just immagine how I would perceive someone callling themself god and cannot see a big difference. Can someone clarify this? ( Tarsilion ( talk) 21:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC))
In one sentence, it says "Eventually the Jain community stopped inviting him because of his radical ideas." Then two paragraphs later, says that "he travelled throughout India, giving lectures critical of socialism and Gandhi, under the name Acharya Rajneesh (Acharya means "teacher"; Rajneesh was a nickname he had been given by his family." It does not give a source where or how he got the title "Acharya." It should be left out or clarified - as Acharya does not simply mean "teacher," and in the reference you used, it means different things depending on the religion. His family religion growing up was Jainism. The Jain definition for Acharya: is a monk who is one of the five revered panch-paremeshtis, and thus worthy of worship. The word "Suri" is equivalent to Acharya. An Acharya is the highest leader of a Jain order. He is the final authority in his monastic order and has the authority to ordain new monks and nuns. He is also authorized to consecrete new idols, although this authority is sometimes delegated to scholars designated by him."
(There are also two misspellings in the above paragraph that aren't corrected because they are copied verbatim)
Since the Jain community stopped inviting him, he could not have been appointed Acharya except by his own appointment, which has no validity. If you decide not to delete the Acharya title, then it needs to be explained that it was a self-stylized title he gave himself and his family gave him the Rajneesh title. 67.183.235.146 ( talk) 22:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC))
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