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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
For reference, this article was created and/or at least named with inspiration from "Insider Trading 2011: How Technology and Social Networks Have 'Friended' Access to Confidential Information" from a Wharton Business School publication (see Talk:Rajat Gupta#Controversy Update and other sections of that talk page for background).
I'll note that a number of the principals in this Wiki article -- RGupta, RRajaratnam included -- have ties to Wharton. More substantively, the title feels too broad for the specific nature of the article. From a quick scan, it's RGupta and RRajaratnam, basically, in the article. The title also seems to imply we may have "I-T-2012" et c. et c. (going back as well as forward?). For now I don't have an alternative to suggest but am open to suggestions. Swliv ( talk) 18:16, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
others?
Thanks, My, for the options. I think we need "cases" at the end of any of them; and lower-case on "insider trading".
Since Galleon was shut down as a result of the prosecution, more or less, I like including that name. The McKinsey association is much weaker, so I don't like including that. AKumar I know less well but am glad to have him included.
I still think, at least until after conviction, that this material is better handled in the individuals' articles. Your "very notable and press covered" remains just laughable to me, Mike. RGupta gets in the paper. People want to see more. They go to his page. Lumping them together, these old case(s) and new case(s), like in this article? (... starting with your vast original title, way-y overstretching the reality.) All just does nothing for me. Your groping around above about now how to name this article just confirms it for me. There's no concept to this article. I don't know what was/is driving you but it's in the wrong direction, by me.
I'd go with Rajaratnam first, for chronology and for first-big-conviction:
I think, despite my relapse into attack/mock mode above, we should try to find consensus amongst the three of us (and others if anyone else joins in) on any change. Could take a few rounds and some time but, in my opinion, it's worth it.
Cheers. Swliv ( talk) 16:28, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
I think of Galleon as Rajaratnam; it folded with his conviction, right? That's enough for me. Plus more readers will recognize the pair of R. and G. than will prob. recog. either individually. Trying to have something recognizably sensible about this article. Swliv ( talk) 21:24, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Equating Galleon with Rajaratnam is disingenuous -- Galleon was over 100 people, right? Rajaratnam and some Galleon employees have been found or pleaded guilty to insider trading, not all -- some weren't charged, some never did anything. Maintaining the distinction is important, and as it is they're separate defendants in all the trials (I think?). Galleon folded a month or so after Rajaratnam's initial arrest, a year and a half before his eventual trial. My[2011] ( talk) | 01:23, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
And having just contributed that long-winded answer, I think there's consensus here. How is:
My[2011] ( talk) | 01:26, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
Because it's VERY important to understand the connections between the men for Rajat Gupta's own insider trading case. I'm OK with leaving it here in this article as well.
PS: What about that section about "tapes are problematic for X/Y/Z reasons?" Should that be in Gupta's article too? Agree that it's equally a Rajaratnam thing, so I'm less sold on that point. My[2011] ( talk) | 17:34, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Is the page about the union of each alleged trading (Raj and many others, Anil and Raj, Rajat and Raj) or the triumvirate Raj-Anil-Rajat? I thought the latter. If the former, we have to include Moffat, Goel, and a number of other people Raj was found guilty of having corrupted. If the latter, we should take out Chiesi and rework the intro. My[2011] ( talk) | 01:33, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
I've just had to edit recent footnotes to incorporate "accessdate"s. Since the footnotes were to older sources (yet were presented in the Edit summary as "Added developments") the fact that they were belatedly, in a time-line sense, being added to the account, the date-of-access seemed partic. important. I'd hope attention to that format policy or common practice would be continued.
On the substance of the edits to which these footnotes were affixed, I'd thought it to be (a) a defense effort to raise reasonable doubt re: Gupta that (b) maybe had fizzled but in any event (c) was already covered in the Gupta article wherein this article as it were gestated and thence in this article. I may be wrong on (c) but add it for reference. Swliv ( talk) 16:39, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
First, I'll say I pursue this history because it goes into a region of Wiki editing I think may be a systemic weakness (though ferociously hard to address, from my humble vantage), namely, how a given piece of an article enters, evolves and (with good frequency, leaves) the article. Given the collaborative nature of Wiki articles, such a history, for me, often becomes (a) interesting and (b) difficult but worthwhile.
That said, I start in the recent past with this May 25 deletion. The line removed was: "Gupta's countersuit claims he is the first person ever charged by SEC in this type of proceeding who is not a broker-dealer or investment management employee." (I would add: "He was a broker-dealer board member" but that's tangential to the history here.) And the Edit summary/explanation of the removal was "Removed personal Gupta claim, no source could be found and his claim is unfounded".
To analyze just that one action a little, the jump from "no source" to "unfounded" seemed large to me. So I wondered who put the piece in and when.
On the way to finding the insertion, I found two interesting interim (October, 2011; not as recent but not foundational) edits of the piece, here and here, one after the other, from an IP address only, two of the total three ever so far from that IP address. One oddity: a "Cn" (citation needed) template was added, first, then removed in the two edits respectively. Another oddity: the second edit left a fragment as a link. Nothing definitively indicative of anything, to me, but curious.
A word on the process. One must (as best I've been able to figure) go to Revision history (in this case here), then "go back aways", see if the relevant piece is still in the article there, if so come partway back more recent, if not go further back; and progressively narrow it down until the actual insertion is found. I haven't found the insertion in this case yet, but it's how I stumbled on the "interesting interim".
Finally: I've located the apparent origin of the bit here, by one of the substantial editors of the article(s), editor My 2011, in March 2011. With that, I'm glad to leave this history/commentary here for My2011 or others to consider whether the deletion was warranted, find a source, et c.. Cheers. Swliv ( talk) 17:50, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Could we possibly move this article to a shorter and easier name for user comfort, please? -- Why should I have a User Name? ( talk) 17:27, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
For reference, this article was created and/or at least named with inspiration from "Insider Trading 2011: How Technology and Social Networks Have 'Friended' Access to Confidential Information" from a Wharton Business School publication (see Talk:Rajat Gupta#Controversy Update and other sections of that talk page for background).
I'll note that a number of the principals in this Wiki article -- RGupta, RRajaratnam included -- have ties to Wharton. More substantively, the title feels too broad for the specific nature of the article. From a quick scan, it's RGupta and RRajaratnam, basically, in the article. The title also seems to imply we may have "I-T-2012" et c. et c. (going back as well as forward?). For now I don't have an alternative to suggest but am open to suggestions. Swliv ( talk) 18:16, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
others?
Thanks, My, for the options. I think we need "cases" at the end of any of them; and lower-case on "insider trading".
Since Galleon was shut down as a result of the prosecution, more or less, I like including that name. The McKinsey association is much weaker, so I don't like including that. AKumar I know less well but am glad to have him included.
I still think, at least until after conviction, that this material is better handled in the individuals' articles. Your "very notable and press covered" remains just laughable to me, Mike. RGupta gets in the paper. People want to see more. They go to his page. Lumping them together, these old case(s) and new case(s), like in this article? (... starting with your vast original title, way-y overstretching the reality.) All just does nothing for me. Your groping around above about now how to name this article just confirms it for me. There's no concept to this article. I don't know what was/is driving you but it's in the wrong direction, by me.
I'd go with Rajaratnam first, for chronology and for first-big-conviction:
I think, despite my relapse into attack/mock mode above, we should try to find consensus amongst the three of us (and others if anyone else joins in) on any change. Could take a few rounds and some time but, in my opinion, it's worth it.
Cheers. Swliv ( talk) 16:28, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
I think of Galleon as Rajaratnam; it folded with his conviction, right? That's enough for me. Plus more readers will recognize the pair of R. and G. than will prob. recog. either individually. Trying to have something recognizably sensible about this article. Swliv ( talk) 21:24, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Equating Galleon with Rajaratnam is disingenuous -- Galleon was over 100 people, right? Rajaratnam and some Galleon employees have been found or pleaded guilty to insider trading, not all -- some weren't charged, some never did anything. Maintaining the distinction is important, and as it is they're separate defendants in all the trials (I think?). Galleon folded a month or so after Rajaratnam's initial arrest, a year and a half before his eventual trial. My[2011] ( talk) | 01:23, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
And having just contributed that long-winded answer, I think there's consensus here. How is:
My[2011] ( talk) | 01:26, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
Because it's VERY important to understand the connections between the men for Rajat Gupta's own insider trading case. I'm OK with leaving it here in this article as well.
PS: What about that section about "tapes are problematic for X/Y/Z reasons?" Should that be in Gupta's article too? Agree that it's equally a Rajaratnam thing, so I'm less sold on that point. My[2011] ( talk) | 17:34, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Is the page about the union of each alleged trading (Raj and many others, Anil and Raj, Rajat and Raj) or the triumvirate Raj-Anil-Rajat? I thought the latter. If the former, we have to include Moffat, Goel, and a number of other people Raj was found guilty of having corrupted. If the latter, we should take out Chiesi and rework the intro. My[2011] ( talk) | 01:33, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
I've just had to edit recent footnotes to incorporate "accessdate"s. Since the footnotes were to older sources (yet were presented in the Edit summary as "Added developments") the fact that they were belatedly, in a time-line sense, being added to the account, the date-of-access seemed partic. important. I'd hope attention to that format policy or common practice would be continued.
On the substance of the edits to which these footnotes were affixed, I'd thought it to be (a) a defense effort to raise reasonable doubt re: Gupta that (b) maybe had fizzled but in any event (c) was already covered in the Gupta article wherein this article as it were gestated and thence in this article. I may be wrong on (c) but add it for reference. Swliv ( talk) 16:39, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
First, I'll say I pursue this history because it goes into a region of Wiki editing I think may be a systemic weakness (though ferociously hard to address, from my humble vantage), namely, how a given piece of an article enters, evolves and (with good frequency, leaves) the article. Given the collaborative nature of Wiki articles, such a history, for me, often becomes (a) interesting and (b) difficult but worthwhile.
That said, I start in the recent past with this May 25 deletion. The line removed was: "Gupta's countersuit claims he is the first person ever charged by SEC in this type of proceeding who is not a broker-dealer or investment management employee." (I would add: "He was a broker-dealer board member" but that's tangential to the history here.) And the Edit summary/explanation of the removal was "Removed personal Gupta claim, no source could be found and his claim is unfounded".
To analyze just that one action a little, the jump from "no source" to "unfounded" seemed large to me. So I wondered who put the piece in and when.
On the way to finding the insertion, I found two interesting interim (October, 2011; not as recent but not foundational) edits of the piece, here and here, one after the other, from an IP address only, two of the total three ever so far from that IP address. One oddity: a "Cn" (citation needed) template was added, first, then removed in the two edits respectively. Another oddity: the second edit left a fragment as a link. Nothing definitively indicative of anything, to me, but curious.
A word on the process. One must (as best I've been able to figure) go to Revision history (in this case here), then "go back aways", see if the relevant piece is still in the article there, if so come partway back more recent, if not go further back; and progressively narrow it down until the actual insertion is found. I haven't found the insertion in this case yet, but it's how I stumbled on the "interesting interim".
Finally: I've located the apparent origin of the bit here, by one of the substantial editors of the article(s), editor My 2011, in March 2011. With that, I'm glad to leave this history/commentary here for My2011 or others to consider whether the deletion was warranted, find a source, et c.. Cheers. Swliv ( talk) 17:50, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Could we possibly move this article to a shorter and easier name for user comfort, please? -- Why should I have a User Name? ( talk) 17:27, 1 November 2014 (UTC)