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The contemporaneous source is Sigvatr Þorðarson, who connects this guy with Svitjod. The rest is elaborations by Icelanders. / Pieter Kuiper 09:41, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Pieter Kuiper accused me of WP:OR [1] without any basis whatsoever in the edit history [2]. I strongly, suggest that Pieter Kuiper reconsiders his behaviour. Moreover, the information he refers to is quite common and should be easy for anyone to find in history books.-- Berig 17:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Clearly, if a 1990s encyclopedia disagrees with an 1890s one, there's no question that we follow the modern one. However, the issue is that the 1890s version has a lot of (IMO doubtless misleading) detail that the modern version drops. When there is doubt, and when it comes to sagas there is always doubt, I'm a fan of the formulas "X says" and "according to X". If our readers want to believe X, that's up to them. Where subjects appear in multiple sorts of sources like that, things get a bit more complicated, but the same general rule can be followed. We use "was" for historical material that modern (not 19th century) historians think is reliable, and "is" for the rest, or we are sure to say what the source is wherever relevant. The appropriate manual of style is usually going to be this one.
The Sawyers' Medieval Scandinavia (chapter 1: Sources) says this about the sagas:
Sagas about Icelandic families before the conversion and about early Norwegian kings cannot be dismissed as fiction. Their reliability as sources for the details of political or military events, individual careers, and even family history, is doubtful, but the generally consistent picture they give of social structure, conduct, beliefs and values must have some basis in reality.
That seems quite clear cut: sagas are of doubtful reliability as a source of historical events. Their comments specifically include Snorri. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
PK greatly exaggerates the severity of an ideologized review by a historian named Hermansson [3], and which was published in 2004, two years after the publication of Larsson's book (2002). Hermansson's problem is that Larsson writes about Migration Age and Viking Age warfare in what is today Sweden, something which Hermansson finds passé. For those who are unfamiliar with Larsson, he is a prolific writer of books both for the general public and for professional archaeologists.-- Berig 16:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I found another review of Larsson's book indexed in LIBRIS, in the archaeological journal Fornvännen 98(2003):322 [8], that could possibly be used for balance. Fornvännen is partially available online, but this review is not (the articles of some recent volumes are on-line but apparently not the reviews). It can probably be found on open shelves in most academic libraries in Sweden. Olaus 10:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually, when I check, it turns out that the articles are not on-line either, just their abstracts. Olaus 11:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
If you still care, there is yet another review of Larsson's book here, written by fellow archaeologist Claes Theliander. Kallerdis 12:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The burden of proof is on User:Berig who wants this "information" about Ragnvald's second marriage in the article. Berig restored this again and again, without giving a source, only on sweeping claims that this is in history books. In fact, the part that I deleted says that there is no source: "The second marriage is not mentioned in any historical source. It is solely based on the assumption that Stenkil's father Ragnvald the Old (mentioned in Hervarar saga) is identical with Ragnvald Ulfsson."
My assumption is that this was user:Wiglaf's inference. / Pieter Kuiper 06:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that you are looking at to few recent secondary sources. This whole debate, and any other debates of similar historical issues, is just a pointless waste of time if you don't survey recent scholarly texts on the subject.
I have access to the CD edition of Svenskt biografiskt lexikon, where there is an article on Ragnvald Ulfsson in a volume published 1995-1997. It includes a bibliography and at least briefly discusses different issues.
I can cut and paste the article here (it is less than a page in print). I guess it would be a violation of copyright to do so, but could it then be removed by a site administrator after you have all read and copied the text and before Google finds and caches it? Or you could go to whatever libraries you have nearby and check for yourselves. Olaus 07:44, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I find the "template" method of entering references ridiculously complex, and have removed this. I tried to add a page number to Winroth's article but it came out as "pp.", despite the whole thing being on only one page:
{{
citation}}
: External link in |title=
(
help)Maybe I just don't get it and it can be fixed somehow. I made links with |-lines to put the authors in alphabetical order, despite their linking.
One thing I don't understand is why Pieter Kuiper removed Winroth's article from the alphabetical list when he inserted it as a footnote. Footnotes and bibliographies are supposed to include the same references, just ordered alphabetically (or systematically, according to repository and archival signum, for archival sources). If the template is restored, please put it in the bibliography, not in the middle of the text. I have looked at the "source text" for articles with more references, and it gets awfully complex and difficult to read the article. Olaus 08:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I made a new page on Theodor Wisén. It is only a few lines, and I'll admit that it is still pretty useless, but at least the link leads somewhere now. I did it mostly because there was a photo of Wisén used in the Swedish Wikipedia. :) Can someone figure out who the NF author signature "-r" is supposed to represent? Olaus 16:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
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The contemporaneous source is Sigvatr Þorðarson, who connects this guy with Svitjod. The rest is elaborations by Icelanders. / Pieter Kuiper 09:41, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Pieter Kuiper accused me of WP:OR [1] without any basis whatsoever in the edit history [2]. I strongly, suggest that Pieter Kuiper reconsiders his behaviour. Moreover, the information he refers to is quite common and should be easy for anyone to find in history books.-- Berig 17:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Clearly, if a 1990s encyclopedia disagrees with an 1890s one, there's no question that we follow the modern one. However, the issue is that the 1890s version has a lot of (IMO doubtless misleading) detail that the modern version drops. When there is doubt, and when it comes to sagas there is always doubt, I'm a fan of the formulas "X says" and "according to X". If our readers want to believe X, that's up to them. Where subjects appear in multiple sorts of sources like that, things get a bit more complicated, but the same general rule can be followed. We use "was" for historical material that modern (not 19th century) historians think is reliable, and "is" for the rest, or we are sure to say what the source is wherever relevant. The appropriate manual of style is usually going to be this one.
The Sawyers' Medieval Scandinavia (chapter 1: Sources) says this about the sagas:
Sagas about Icelandic families before the conversion and about early Norwegian kings cannot be dismissed as fiction. Their reliability as sources for the details of political or military events, individual careers, and even family history, is doubtful, but the generally consistent picture they give of social structure, conduct, beliefs and values must have some basis in reality.
That seems quite clear cut: sagas are of doubtful reliability as a source of historical events. Their comments specifically include Snorri. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
PK greatly exaggerates the severity of an ideologized review by a historian named Hermansson [3], and which was published in 2004, two years after the publication of Larsson's book (2002). Hermansson's problem is that Larsson writes about Migration Age and Viking Age warfare in what is today Sweden, something which Hermansson finds passé. For those who are unfamiliar with Larsson, he is a prolific writer of books both for the general public and for professional archaeologists.-- Berig 16:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I found another review of Larsson's book indexed in LIBRIS, in the archaeological journal Fornvännen 98(2003):322 [8], that could possibly be used for balance. Fornvännen is partially available online, but this review is not (the articles of some recent volumes are on-line but apparently not the reviews). It can probably be found on open shelves in most academic libraries in Sweden. Olaus 10:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually, when I check, it turns out that the articles are not on-line either, just their abstracts. Olaus 11:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
If you still care, there is yet another review of Larsson's book here, written by fellow archaeologist Claes Theliander. Kallerdis 12:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The burden of proof is on User:Berig who wants this "information" about Ragnvald's second marriage in the article. Berig restored this again and again, without giving a source, only on sweeping claims that this is in history books. In fact, the part that I deleted says that there is no source: "The second marriage is not mentioned in any historical source. It is solely based on the assumption that Stenkil's father Ragnvald the Old (mentioned in Hervarar saga) is identical with Ragnvald Ulfsson."
My assumption is that this was user:Wiglaf's inference. / Pieter Kuiper 06:54, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that you are looking at to few recent secondary sources. This whole debate, and any other debates of similar historical issues, is just a pointless waste of time if you don't survey recent scholarly texts on the subject.
I have access to the CD edition of Svenskt biografiskt lexikon, where there is an article on Ragnvald Ulfsson in a volume published 1995-1997. It includes a bibliography and at least briefly discusses different issues.
I can cut and paste the article here (it is less than a page in print). I guess it would be a violation of copyright to do so, but could it then be removed by a site administrator after you have all read and copied the text and before Google finds and caches it? Or you could go to whatever libraries you have nearby and check for yourselves. Olaus 07:44, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I find the "template" method of entering references ridiculously complex, and have removed this. I tried to add a page number to Winroth's article but it came out as "pp.", despite the whole thing being on only one page:
{{
citation}}
: External link in |title=
(
help)Maybe I just don't get it and it can be fixed somehow. I made links with |-lines to put the authors in alphabetical order, despite their linking.
One thing I don't understand is why Pieter Kuiper removed Winroth's article from the alphabetical list when he inserted it as a footnote. Footnotes and bibliographies are supposed to include the same references, just ordered alphabetically (or systematically, according to repository and archival signum, for archival sources). If the template is restored, please put it in the bibliography, not in the middle of the text. I have looked at the "source text" for articles with more references, and it gets awfully complex and difficult to read the article. Olaus 08:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I made a new page on Theodor Wisén. It is only a few lines, and I'll admit that it is still pretty useless, but at least the link leads somewhere now. I did it mostly because there was a photo of Wisén used in the Swedish Wikipedia. :) Can someone figure out who the NF author signature "-r" is supposed to represent? Olaus 16:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC)