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Hi all! My name is Sessama7 and I have decided to take on the radical expansion and revision of this article for my Human Development class project. Being from France, I am very aware of the racism that prevails and from reading your posts, I can tell that you also have a lot to say about this topic. I would thus love to hear from you and get some insight on how you think that I should proceed. Because the topic is so widespread, I have unfortunately also decided to focus on certain ethnic groups. Although I am very aware that many ethnic groups in France face racism, I have chosen to focus on five ethnic groups for the scope of my project: blacks, jews, arabs, the romani and the chinese. However, I would like to take on a different approach:
1. I plan to give an overview of what racism entails. Furthermore, I plan to more generally describe the ethnic groups that are confronted with racism in France. Finally, I plan to paint a brief picture of the current racial landscape in France as it pertains to opinions and policies. I would greatly appreciate your help in this section in identifying major ethnic groups confronted with racism in France so that I can at least mention them in this introductory passage.
2.I plan to provide information about each of France’s major ethnic populations. I will dive into some of France’s colonial, economical and political history, thus explaining why each population represents a key group in France’s society and why these groups are confronted with racism. If any of you any good sources pertaining to France's colonial history please feel free to post on this page. It is in this section that I will describe some of the discrimination faced by distinct ethnic groups. Providing a historical context, I believe allows the tone of the article to be more informative and neutral.
3. I plan to describe the consequences of racism seen in the media and in politics. After having given a general overview and some historical context in the previous sections, I want to provide some contemporary cases and news events that depict the influence of racism on France’s modern day society. Please feel free to post any news articles or documents that you think would add to this section.
4.I plan to discuss the Antiracism movement that has been present in France since the 19th century.
Thank you so much for taking the time to read this post and I hope that you will feel free to comment so that we can work together to improve this article.
Sessama7 ( talk) 23:22, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Basing an article about such a sensitive, complex issue on a single mass-media (i.e. non-peer-reviewed) magazine article is, by definition, not neutral (see WP:Neutral Point of View and WP:Verifiability). I removed the original intro text, which, for reference, was:
In an elaboreted account in the Time, it reports that racism against blacks, Arabs and Jews is a wide phenomenon in France.
It explains: "If the problem of racism in American discourse is typified by the N-word outburst of comedian Michael Richards followed by his abject apology, the French variant is altogether more toxic."
This is an unsourced statement of opinion (the journalist's) and is not appropriate for Wikipedia.
Furthermore, this entire Wikipedia article needs proper citations and editing for a neutral viewpoint. (Normally I would edit it myself, but I do not have the time currently.) -- fraise ( talk) 12:20, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
The story of the girl attack in the train in 2004 was a fake... Funny to find that fake story here, as it was true... 85.170.16.25 ( talk) 12:13, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
This article is nonsense. It needs to be either rewritten or deleted. There is no information regarding institutional racism in France. All it has is cited a few newspaper articles outlining certain individuals acts of violence committed by usually arabs on jewish people. No figures or statistics are given. There was even a paragraph regarding ante-native racism, based purely on statements made by right-wing fascists on how white people are being discriminated against. Here too there was no encyclopedic content. If I didn't know better, I would say this article is the product of racism. I hope it is deleted or completely rewritten. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.242.243.167 ( talk) 22:07, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
I second that; this article is hugely biased and is itself racist. Even the (very selective, narrow, all arab-vs-jew) cases it presents are unsubstantiated. It's like a party political broadcast for Le Pen. This article should be deleted immediately. Amazingtessa ( talk) 08:11, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Seriously, this is probably one of the more short-sighted articles about racism in a developed Western country still on wiki. Someone ith some knowledge on this subject please rewrite soon!
An RfC:
Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the
Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. –
MrX
17:12, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Hey Glaucus, I've moved to this page, pardon I'm a noob at this.
Of course it's a subsection under the broad definition of racism in France, just like the Romani.
I would not consider Cope, who contesting leadership of the major conservative party in France as a minor figure, nor Le Pen, who is leader of the 3rd largest party and received 18 percent of the vote in the recent presidential election.
The issue is significant as it is contentious and increasingly so.
Le Figaro is the leading centre right journal of record in France.
Thanks
Herbertheever ( talk) 01:56, 28 October 2012 (UTC)HH
The fact that two leading politicians with more combined vote than the parties of the left can discuss the issue moves it beyond fringe in the context of France. Having been to France recently and being a Francophone I can assure it is a considerable issue. Of course I will develop more references, but I am unsure how eligible articles in French for an English language wiki. Perhaps you can help here?
There are only a few small paragraphs covering the issue. Someone with expertise on other types of racism in France - French vs Arab or Black for example, or Arab vs Jew needs to deal with those sections as I know little about it. Just because no one has bothered there does not mean this subsection is not relevant.
Even if it was only the FN talking about the issue it would still be considerable as they are the third largest party, and now that the UMP are discussing the issue it makes it more relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Herbertheever ( talk • contribs) 03:22, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
These are, in my understanding, rather cases of antisemitism. Just to get this straight: this article could be as long as it can and it can refer to any ethnicity living in France, including whites, but it needs to stay on topic all the while: racism. The fact that the victim has another religion or race alone, does not make a crime per se racist – we need the sources discussing and/or making a case this, otherwise it becomes original research based on the editor's preconceptions.
I have thus removed all those instances which don't even use the term "racism" and go under the term "antisemitism" instead; plus those where the links are dead. This applies, in fact, to every single example cited in this section!
I'd also suggest that further expansion of the article should be more along the lines of the Arab section, with general information provided, rather than a mere collection of individual acts of interracial or interreligious crime. This, unfortunately, gives the article rather a touch of yellow press review. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 23:06, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. 84.44.230.14 ( talk) 19:26, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Racism and ethnic discrimination in France → ? – Move back to Racism in France. The move to the current title was done unilaterally by Glaucus without consensus or even discussion, apparently to make the article fit his preconceptions of what constitutes racism against Jews. However, a look at the underlying category Racism by country makes it 100% clear that the almost exclusive standard naming scheme for these articles in the Wikipedia is Racism in <country>, not "Racism and ethnic discrimination in <country>". There is no reason why we should abandon this naming scheme in the case of France. Moreover, "ethnic discrimination" is an originally researched, undefined term in the article, what does it mean anyhow? Besides, racism against Jews most commonly goes by the term antisemitism, so there is a case to be made that relevant material should be included rather there, if adequate. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 17:24, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Your point 1 sound convincing. Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 17:25, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
"Listing only a few ethnicities is selective bias as there are several hundred of them in France who could all be potential objects of racism. We don't single out some of them selectively until we have reason to do so." I agree. I decresead this selective bias by adding other "ethnicities". How do you plan to solve WP:UNDUE selective bias? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:06, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
The first change that you reverted yesterday is 561109734. Why did you revert it? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 19:07, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Why did you revert 561109906? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:28, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Why did you revert 561110024? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 17:25, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Why did you revert 561110084? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:06, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Why did you revert 561110172? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:09, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
Hey Sarah. My main recommendation to you would be to add more information on the current state of racism in France in addition to the history of it. Also, ensure to review the article for minor mistakes in grammar, sentence structure, etc. Brodgers15 ( talk) 23:40, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Overall, I think you did a great job with this contribution. I think readers will find this historical context very useful in constructing their own ideas about French racism. I do think that finding and incorporating information from a couple more scholarly sources will be vital for your last revision to this contribution. It will really help generate a more comprehensive contribution that gains credibility because of the diversity of information you will provide. Also, if you have time, I think it would also be helpful if you could include a sub-section for each racial group and discuss how this historically racial context affects these populations today. What kinds of disparities in opportunities exist because of this historical context? Has there been development in different aspects of society (social, economic, political, etc.) that has helped these groups gain upwards mobility in recent decades? Dmillar23 ( talk) 23:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
This article makes several references to nationality, which is distinct from the concept of race.
Also, this page seems to go more into a history of various racially motivated political policies rather than an overview of the way racism operates in France. Hza a 9 ( talk) 22:38, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
The first line of this article now reads: "Racism is defined as the 'poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race" and "the belief that some races of people are better than others.'" I suggest to write it in reverse. In other words, showing that the "belief" produces the "poor treatment." In the present form, it implies as if they are together by chance. If there is no opposition, I will move to make the change.
Moreover, I think the introduction should do away with dictionary quotations as they are as transient and incomplete as an encyclopedia. To better wikify this article, it should simply refer to the racism in the same manner as the Wiki article on race and racism does, but much shorter. Caballero/Historiador ⎌ 17:39, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Can somebody explain to me why the "unbalanced" tag is still on this page? I don't see any sign why it should stay as the page is clear about which subject it's talking about. BM Tornado ( talk) 18:43, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
Any discussion about racism in France needs to talk about Dieudonné. Mathglot ( talk) 08:37, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
The "Racism against white people" section was a wholesale repetition of other text found in under § In politics, so I've removed it. Even the existing material seems out of proportion to the broader topic as described in reliable, mainstream scholarship. Why do we care what Marine Le Pen, Jean-François Copé, and Claude Guéant think anyway? Wikipedia is supposed to be a summary of accepted knowledge, not a compendium of (self-serving) political soundbites. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:18, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
I would like to add a link or reference to the Cagot wiki page somewhere in the article ( /info/en/?search=Cagot). The Cagot were a minority group with a long history of discrimination in France and I was fully expecting them to be mentioned somewhere in the article. For now, I think it would be appropriate to add a link to the see also section. 129.71.250.254 ( talk) 16:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article was the subject of an educational assignment in Spring 2014. Further details were available on the "Education Program:Rice University/Human Development in Global and Local Communities, Section 1 (Spring 2014)" page, which is now unavailable on the wiki. |
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 9 January 2013 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hi all! My name is Sessama7 and I have decided to take on the radical expansion and revision of this article for my Human Development class project. Being from France, I am very aware of the racism that prevails and from reading your posts, I can tell that you also have a lot to say about this topic. I would thus love to hear from you and get some insight on how you think that I should proceed. Because the topic is so widespread, I have unfortunately also decided to focus on certain ethnic groups. Although I am very aware that many ethnic groups in France face racism, I have chosen to focus on five ethnic groups for the scope of my project: blacks, jews, arabs, the romani and the chinese. However, I would like to take on a different approach:
1. I plan to give an overview of what racism entails. Furthermore, I plan to more generally describe the ethnic groups that are confronted with racism in France. Finally, I plan to paint a brief picture of the current racial landscape in France as it pertains to opinions and policies. I would greatly appreciate your help in this section in identifying major ethnic groups confronted with racism in France so that I can at least mention them in this introductory passage.
2.I plan to provide information about each of France’s major ethnic populations. I will dive into some of France’s colonial, economical and political history, thus explaining why each population represents a key group in France’s society and why these groups are confronted with racism. If any of you any good sources pertaining to France's colonial history please feel free to post on this page. It is in this section that I will describe some of the discrimination faced by distinct ethnic groups. Providing a historical context, I believe allows the tone of the article to be more informative and neutral.
3. I plan to describe the consequences of racism seen in the media and in politics. After having given a general overview and some historical context in the previous sections, I want to provide some contemporary cases and news events that depict the influence of racism on France’s modern day society. Please feel free to post any news articles or documents that you think would add to this section.
4.I plan to discuss the Antiracism movement that has been present in France since the 19th century.
Thank you so much for taking the time to read this post and I hope that you will feel free to comment so that we can work together to improve this article.
Sessama7 ( talk) 23:22, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Basing an article about such a sensitive, complex issue on a single mass-media (i.e. non-peer-reviewed) magazine article is, by definition, not neutral (see WP:Neutral Point of View and WP:Verifiability). I removed the original intro text, which, for reference, was:
In an elaboreted account in the Time, it reports that racism against blacks, Arabs and Jews is a wide phenomenon in France.
It explains: "If the problem of racism in American discourse is typified by the N-word outburst of comedian Michael Richards followed by his abject apology, the French variant is altogether more toxic."
This is an unsourced statement of opinion (the journalist's) and is not appropriate for Wikipedia.
Furthermore, this entire Wikipedia article needs proper citations and editing for a neutral viewpoint. (Normally I would edit it myself, but I do not have the time currently.) -- fraise ( talk) 12:20, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
The story of the girl attack in the train in 2004 was a fake... Funny to find that fake story here, as it was true... 85.170.16.25 ( talk) 12:13, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
This article is nonsense. It needs to be either rewritten or deleted. There is no information regarding institutional racism in France. All it has is cited a few newspaper articles outlining certain individuals acts of violence committed by usually arabs on jewish people. No figures or statistics are given. There was even a paragraph regarding ante-native racism, based purely on statements made by right-wing fascists on how white people are being discriminated against. Here too there was no encyclopedic content. If I didn't know better, I would say this article is the product of racism. I hope it is deleted or completely rewritten. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.242.243.167 ( talk) 22:07, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
I second that; this article is hugely biased and is itself racist. Even the (very selective, narrow, all arab-vs-jew) cases it presents are unsubstantiated. It's like a party political broadcast for Le Pen. This article should be deleted immediately. Amazingtessa ( talk) 08:11, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
Seriously, this is probably one of the more short-sighted articles about racism in a developed Western country still on wiki. Someone ith some knowledge on this subject please rewrite soon!
An RfC:
Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the
Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. –
MrX
17:12, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Hey Glaucus, I've moved to this page, pardon I'm a noob at this.
Of course it's a subsection under the broad definition of racism in France, just like the Romani.
I would not consider Cope, who contesting leadership of the major conservative party in France as a minor figure, nor Le Pen, who is leader of the 3rd largest party and received 18 percent of the vote in the recent presidential election.
The issue is significant as it is contentious and increasingly so.
Le Figaro is the leading centre right journal of record in France.
Thanks
Herbertheever ( talk) 01:56, 28 October 2012 (UTC)HH
The fact that two leading politicians with more combined vote than the parties of the left can discuss the issue moves it beyond fringe in the context of France. Having been to France recently and being a Francophone I can assure it is a considerable issue. Of course I will develop more references, but I am unsure how eligible articles in French for an English language wiki. Perhaps you can help here?
There are only a few small paragraphs covering the issue. Someone with expertise on other types of racism in France - French vs Arab or Black for example, or Arab vs Jew needs to deal with those sections as I know little about it. Just because no one has bothered there does not mean this subsection is not relevant.
Even if it was only the FN talking about the issue it would still be considerable as they are the third largest party, and now that the UMP are discussing the issue it makes it more relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Herbertheever ( talk • contribs) 03:22, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
These are, in my understanding, rather cases of antisemitism. Just to get this straight: this article could be as long as it can and it can refer to any ethnicity living in France, including whites, but it needs to stay on topic all the while: racism. The fact that the victim has another religion or race alone, does not make a crime per se racist – we need the sources discussing and/or making a case this, otherwise it becomes original research based on the editor's preconceptions.
I have thus removed all those instances which don't even use the term "racism" and go under the term "antisemitism" instead; plus those where the links are dead. This applies, in fact, to every single example cited in this section!
I'd also suggest that further expansion of the article should be more along the lines of the Arab section, with general information provided, rather than a mere collection of individual acts of interracial or interreligious crime. This, unfortunately, gives the article rather a touch of yellow press review. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 23:06, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. 84.44.230.14 ( talk) 19:26, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Racism and ethnic discrimination in France → ? – Move back to Racism in France. The move to the current title was done unilaterally by Glaucus without consensus or even discussion, apparently to make the article fit his preconceptions of what constitutes racism against Jews. However, a look at the underlying category Racism by country makes it 100% clear that the almost exclusive standard naming scheme for these articles in the Wikipedia is Racism in <country>, not "Racism and ethnic discrimination in <country>". There is no reason why we should abandon this naming scheme in the case of France. Moreover, "ethnic discrimination" is an originally researched, undefined term in the article, what does it mean anyhow? Besides, racism against Jews most commonly goes by the term antisemitism, so there is a case to be made that relevant material should be included rather there, if adequate. Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 17:24, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Your point 1 sound convincing. Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 17:25, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
"Listing only a few ethnicities is selective bias as there are several hundred of them in France who could all be potential objects of racism. We don't single out some of them selectively until we have reason to do so." I agree. I decresead this selective bias by adding other "ethnicities". How do you plan to solve WP:UNDUE selective bias? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:06, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
The first change that you reverted yesterday is 561109734. Why did you revert it? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 19:07, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Why did you revert 561109906? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:28, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
Why did you revert 561110024? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 17:25, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
Why did you revert 561110084? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:06, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Why did you revert 561110172? Visite fortuitement prolongée ( talk) 20:09, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
Hey Sarah. My main recommendation to you would be to add more information on the current state of racism in France in addition to the history of it. Also, ensure to review the article for minor mistakes in grammar, sentence structure, etc. Brodgers15 ( talk) 23:40, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
Overall, I think you did a great job with this contribution. I think readers will find this historical context very useful in constructing their own ideas about French racism. I do think that finding and incorporating information from a couple more scholarly sources will be vital for your last revision to this contribution. It will really help generate a more comprehensive contribution that gains credibility because of the diversity of information you will provide. Also, if you have time, I think it would also be helpful if you could include a sub-section for each racial group and discuss how this historically racial context affects these populations today. What kinds of disparities in opportunities exist because of this historical context? Has there been development in different aspects of society (social, economic, political, etc.) that has helped these groups gain upwards mobility in recent decades? Dmillar23 ( talk) 23:47, 31 March 2014 (UTC)
This article makes several references to nationality, which is distinct from the concept of race.
Also, this page seems to go more into a history of various racially motivated political policies rather than an overview of the way racism operates in France. Hza a 9 ( talk) 22:38, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
The first line of this article now reads: "Racism is defined as the 'poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race" and "the belief that some races of people are better than others.'" I suggest to write it in reverse. In other words, showing that the "belief" produces the "poor treatment." In the present form, it implies as if they are together by chance. If there is no opposition, I will move to make the change.
Moreover, I think the introduction should do away with dictionary quotations as they are as transient and incomplete as an encyclopedia. To better wikify this article, it should simply refer to the racism in the same manner as the Wiki article on race and racism does, but much shorter. Caballero/Historiador ⎌ 17:39, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
Can somebody explain to me why the "unbalanced" tag is still on this page? I don't see any sign why it should stay as the page is clear about which subject it's talking about. BM Tornado ( talk) 18:43, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
Any discussion about racism in France needs to talk about Dieudonné. Mathglot ( talk) 08:37, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
The "Racism against white people" section was a wholesale repetition of other text found in under § In politics, so I've removed it. Even the existing material seems out of proportion to the broader topic as described in reliable, mainstream scholarship. Why do we care what Marine Le Pen, Jean-François Copé, and Claude Guéant think anyway? Wikipedia is supposed to be a summary of accepted knowledge, not a compendium of (self-serving) political soundbites. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:18, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
I would like to add a link or reference to the Cagot wiki page somewhere in the article ( /info/en/?search=Cagot). The Cagot were a minority group with a long history of discrimination in France and I was fully expecting them to be mentioned somewhere in the article. For now, I think it would be appropriate to add a link to the see also section. 129.71.250.254 ( talk) 16:21, 3 July 2024 (UTC)