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I believe the statement needs to be removed or rephrased since the mainstream consensus is disputed.
"Mainstream consensus is that ancient Egypt was a mixed-race gestalt of African and Middle Eastern ethnicities, with varying skin tones and other physical characteristics.[3][4][5][6] "
furthermore the external links make no reference to a mixed race society Muntuwandi 22:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
[3]
The biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians were tested against their neighbors and selected prehistoric groups as well as against samples representing the major geographic population clusters of the world. Two dozen craniofacial measurements were taken on each individual used. The raw measurements were converted into C scores and used to produce Euclidean distance dendrograms. The measurements were principally of adaptively trivial traits that display patterns of regional similarities based solely on genetic relationships. The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities in trivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southward through Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selective forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur. An assessment of race is as useless as it is impossible. Neither clines nor clusters alone suffice to deal with the biological nature of a widely distributed population. Both must be used. We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well.
This is what a gestalt is: a configuration, pattern, or organized field having specific properties that cannot be derived from the summation of its component parts; a unified whole. ( Dictionary.com)
[4] Page 42: "...the Egyptians were of mixed race"
[5] Slavery in ancient Egypt encompassed a wide range of skin colors, as did the Egyptian population itself, at all social levels...
[6] Look at the title :)
This proposal is somewhat ridiculous. You clearly haven't looked at the sources in depth. The most notable Afrocentrists have even gone out of their way to point out how the mixed-race hypothesis "unfairly" dominates science. That is to say, even the opposition acknowledges that these views are mainstream in science.-- Urthogie 22:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
[4] - One sentence in the whole book is insufficient to be considered mainstream
[5] - the book is about race in general not about ancient egypt.
[6] - The book presents a counter argument to afrocentrism and therefore cannot be considered mainstream. Muntuwandi 23:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Like I said, it's ridiculous to push this issue. Even the afrocentrists call this view mainstream, even hough they disagree with it. -- Urthogie 23:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I do not necessarily disagree with the mixed race hypothesis but I believe it has been oversimplified. food for thought.
I find this "egyptians are egyptians" line hilarious...Amercans are Americans but that doesn't tell me much about their genes. -- Vehgah 16:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Urthogie, I would like first of all to come back to the issue of the picture number 3 of the article. I told you that this man is not a Nubian, but an Egyptian. You are questioning the reliability of the picture I indicated you.
De façon exceptionnelle, dans le tombeau de Ramsès III où une vignette identifie une figure de Nubien comme égyptienne, l'image des Ret et des Nahasu est identique en tous points, y compris les vêtements. Les tenants de la thèse afrocentriste y voient une preuve que les Égyptiens étaient identiques aux autres Africains. Les autres égyptologues considèrent que les artistes ont mal étiqueté les images parce que les vignettes sont également inversées pour TMHHW (les Libyens) et AAMW (les Asiatiques/Sémites). [2]
In an exceptional way, in the tomb of Ramsès III where a label identifies a figure of Nubian like Egyptian woman, the image of Ret and Nahasu is identical in all points, including clothing. Holding of the thesis afrocentrist see a proof there that the Egyptians were identical to the other Africans. The other Egyptologists consider that the artists badly labelled the images because the labels are also reversed for TMHHW (Libyans) and AAMW (the Asian ones/Sémites).
Based on this picture the egyptians had a brown complexion. By standards of today would be considered a person of color. Basically if King Tut were alive today and were to go for dinner at a restaurant in New York, he would be served late and they would get his order wrong. Muntuwandi 19:00, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Dear Urthogie. Egyptology is profoundly rooted in its racist origins. “Egypt will be studied considering the passage of the human spirit from the east to the west, but it does not belong to the African spirit (L’Egypte sera examinée au passage de l’esprit humain de l’Est à l’Ouest, mais ne relève pas de l’esprit africain)” said Hegel. (Hegel, “Leçons sur la philosophie de l’histoire”, Paris: Vrin, 1954, p. 93). Egyptologists feel obliged to reject every proof of the blackness of the Egyptians.
Best regards! (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).
Dear Urthogie. In your last intervention, you raised a certain number of questions.
I am convinced, dear Urthogie, that truth will liberate the world. Best regards! (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).
these might be helpful.
http://archaeology.about.com/library/glossary/bldef_khartoummesolithic.htm
Early Nile Valley Farmers from El-Badri by Professor S. O. Y. Keita (2005) National Human Genome Center at Howard University Department of Anthropology, Smithsonian Institution
The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians Professor S.O.Y. Keita Department of Biological Anthropology Oxford University Professor A. J. Boyce University Reader in Human Population Oxford University
Viola76 04:16, 2 February 2007 (UTC)viola76
What does he look like
Muntuwandi 07:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
According to the picture the scientific consesus is that the libyan was mislabeled, would people mind expanding that topic because I don't know what that is suppose to mean. Does that mean that the Libyan is really the guy with the very black skin or is the libyan the guy from syria, or is the libyan the guy with brown skin? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.138.142 ( talk) 17:27, 4 February 2007 (UTC).
Still, the brown skin Egyptian is an authentic black man. As Joseph Ki-Zerbo put it, "many Blacks have brown skin (bien des Noirs ont la peau brune)" (Joseph Ki-Zerbo, "Histoire générale de l'Afrique Noire, d'Hier à Demain", Paris: Hatier, 1972, p. 80). This brown skin color is also found among the Nubians (Cf the image of Nubians in the tomb of Huy published by Georges Posener, Serge Sauneron, Jean Yoyote (Redatto), "Dizionario della civiltà Egizia", Milano: Il Saggiatore, 1961, p. 297) (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka)-- 195.110.156.38 09:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
This sentence doesn't make sense. The implication of this is that only caucausians/whites have hooknoses. This contradicts everything known about biological anthropology. We know that people with the so called hooknoses are simply people who have lived in high elevations. For example, Persians have hooknoses, but so do Ethiopians, many south africans and sudanese people, as well as even native americans who come from the andes or other mountain ranges. The shape of your nose is indepedent of race and totallly dependent on elevation. Ie. people from the chinese lowlands have flatnoses but this is because they come from dry desert climates like many africans. Of course we would never say this makes chinese black. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.138.142 ( talk) 17:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC).
It was nice discussing this with you two. Unfortunately it's against the rules for us not to discuss the article for such a lengthy period of time. Anyways, best regards, -- Urthogie 02:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
o.k since we both have a interest in ancient egypt we can continue to discuss it on our personal pages ive left some questions on yours
194.176.105.40 02:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC)viola76
No more discussion! Is it because I brought a chronological argument? This is unfair. If it helps the readers to make a scientific evaluation of the article, I think my contribution is worth mentioning. You are free to respond to it or not.
Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 195.110.156.38 14:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Urthogie. Am I misquoting you? Who wrote this: "My point isn't that the Egyptians were as light as the semites, but rather that they were a mix between the semites and the Africans. If we divide the world into three groups, we'll have very rigid guidelines, and of course group people incorrectly. The Egyptians were a unique mixed race, and a three-way division doesn't address this fact. The ancient religious sources are not at all scientific. You are trying to argue a basically scientific point with a history given by religions, which are not scientific in nature. If we accepted religion as scientific we'd say we're all descended from Adam and Eve, materialized by god, when the scientific reality which proves this myth wrong is evolution. This is an example ofwhy modern science is more powerful than ancient religious myths in answering questions such as the one this article deals with.--Urthogie 19:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)"?
Best regards! Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka--
195.110.156.38
18:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
you are wasting your time with this discussion nkuka what ever evidence you bring urthogie will not accept it. look on his personal page and look at the discussion i am having with him regards Viola76 21:58, 10 February 2007 (UTC)viola76
Mainstream consensus is that ancient Egypt was a mixed-race gestalt of African and Middle Eastern ethnicities.[3] There are alternative views, however. Afrocentric scholars such as Martin Bernal and Cheikh Anta Diop claims that dynastic Egypt was from its inception--and remained throughout several millennia-- a primarily black, African civilization.
I think this part is fair and shows both sides of the story in a balenced way. Let's keep it like this. futurebird 20:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
fair enough futurebird but can we really say martin bernal is afrocentric? it seems to me from the paragraph that any one who reckons the original A.E were black african are labelled afrocentric and i mean the negative terms that the label entails. Viola76 22:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)viola76
Thank you Viola76 for your knowledge and for your wisdom. Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 195.110.156.38 14:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Rahotep looks like my uncle, can we add him back? :) futurebird 22:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
"It is apparent that the ancient Egyptians did not make racial distinctions themselves, but rather ethnic distinctions based on nationality. Tomb paintings depicting captive Nubians may show them as being very dark, but this is an artistic convention stereotyping a nationality, and to conclude there were therefore no very dark Egyptians would be a non sequitur. Similarly, the skin tones in art depicting the Egyptians themselves adhere to convention rather than an absolutely accurate description of reality. Tutankhamun is variously shown as being black as in the guardian statues found in his tomb, and brown or beige as in the lotus bust." [6]
I won't revert you though.-- Urthogie 22:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Peace! Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 195.110.156.38 15:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I just skimmed the article and I can't figure out what the controversy is about. Doesn't it just depend on how you define black? What exactly do Afrocentrists mean when they say Egyptians were primarily black? Do they just mean they had dark skin or are they claiming a genetic relationship with the peoples of sub-Saharan Afica? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TVismute ( talk • contribs) 04:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC).
To these quotations, one can add the following taken from Aboubacry Moussa Lam:
I am having a really hard time to figure out what the characteristics of the ancient egyptian were from this article. OMG why are we talking about black/white here????? They didn't care , they were doing business with everyone then!!! It was a multicultural state, and after all ended up with nubian and greek rulers. I learned NOTHING from this article and wish someone could delete it and start over. February 2007
Well excuse me, but this is a very controversial topic, and if you're to provide an argument, please make sure that your sources agree or at least acknowledge the argument being present. For example, I deleted the genetics section because it was extremely biased and was absolutely irrelevant to the argument on rather the Ancient (not modern) Egyptians were native to Africa and can be deemed as "Black African". You also didn't bring up the issue on what exactly a "Black African" is. Is it only exclusive to sub-saharan Africans, or any native dark skinned African? Also, how does a DNA chart clarify anything? These are modern studies and results and there's been a period of over 5,000 years since the inception of Egypt to present day.. According to Dr. S.O.Y Keita (P.H.D, biological Anthropology) a lot of today's descendants can trace a lot of their recent genetic heritage most likely back to the Arab invasion, and to a lesser extent Greek and Roman occupation, among other things. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/keita.html
I also don't see why the writer assumes that Ethiopians are mixed with "Caucasoid", which is a misnomer, though he doesn't make a point that possibly modern day Egyptians are also mixed, or explains why he thinks they were mixed, and when did the majority of "mixing" go on. His sources did not back his statements, these were his opinions. And if all of this "mixing" has been going on, what does that tell us about the racial characteristics of the ancient Egyptians (this doesn't prove them to be a mixed people from its inception)? If we're to talk about racial characteristics, and when race gets problematic, talk about origins and lineage. mtDNA tests on the oldest populations in Egypt (those with some of the oldest cultures) shows that they can be linked with people from Ethiopia and Eritrea.
"The current structure of the Egyptian population may be the result of further influence of neighbouring populations on this ancestral population." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14748828
^So somewhere down that line these people must of been predominantly East African in ethnicity, or to be conservative (even though this is the same opinion of my source), at least a lot of their ancestors were. So imo that whole gentic table and section was a distraction and in no way brings clarity to what the racial characteristics of the ancients were, it's just biased to someone's opinion and is irrelevant to the facts and method that should be taken to answer these questions. Also, quoting a non-qualified psychologist (Arthur Jensen) doesn't help that argument either because what does Jensen have to do with the "racial characteristics of the ancient Egyptians"? It's almost absurd that he was quoted; he is in no way qualified to answer that question. Taharqa 16:35, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
This is the entire point. More evidence suggests a migration from the south. It has also been addressed in updated research that the outdated technique of skull measurements to determine "race" is inadequate (especially concerning Africa).. To do that you would have to also cluster them (Europeans) with Ethiopians, Somalians, the Sudan, and tribes like the Beja. They are all considered indigenous to Africa and referred to as "Nilotic Continuity" according to Frank Yurco and others.. Frank Yurco, "An Egyptological Review" in Mary R. Lefkowitz and Guy MacLean Rogers, eds. Black Athena Revisited. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1996. p. 62-100
There is no sufficient archaeological evidence to suggest a mass migration from the North, as can be seen from the Badari culture, the predecessor of the Egyptians. Also, studies by S. Keita of Badarian cranium and under close comparison suggests more affinities with East African Teita and tropical Africa than anything else. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/badari.pdf
Also, it's important to note that evidence suggests the Sahara wasn't always a desert and at the end of the Ice Age between 8000 BC to 6000 BC, it was habitable, as can be seen on rock paintings from around that time. http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/~e118/Fezzan/fezzan_palaeoclim.html
These stereotypical notions of "European skulls" in native Africa are outdated and have been highly criticized.
Keita writes: "In general, this restricted view presents all tropical Africans with narrower noses and faces as being related to or descended from external, ultimately non-African peoples. However, narrow-faced, narrow-nosed populations have long been resident in Saharo-tropical Africa... and their origin need not be sought elsewhere. These traits are also indigenous. The variability in tropical Africa is expectedly naturally high. Given their longstanding presence, narrow noses and faces cannot be deemed `non-African.'" (S.O.Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993), page 134)
It is also important to note minor differences between the Northern populations and Southern populations of Egypt. Upper Egyptian crania had more affinities with the tropical African series. S.O.Y. Keita Journal of Human Evolution, 2000 Sep; 39(3): 269-88. Department of Surgery, Howard University Hospital, Washington, DC
Also, old kingdom Giza skulls had more affinities with Nubians than Europeans.
"Cephalometric work on Old and New Kingdom remains demonstrates variability in the ancient period, as noted in observations by Harris and Weeks (1973:123) of a Seventeenth Dynasty pharoah:
His entire facial complex, in fact, is so different from other pharaohs (it is closest to that of his son Ahmose) that he could be fitted more easily into the series of Nubian and Old Kingdom Giza skulls than into that of later Egyptian kings. Various scholars in the past have proposed a Nubian-that is, non-Egyptian-origin for Seqenenre and his family, and his facial features suggest this might indeed be true.
MacGaffey (1966) comments on variation in ancient Egyptian portraiture. 'Negroid' and 'Egyptian' were not mutually exclusive" [see Petrie, (19061, plate xix.]
"Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North. See Bruce G. Trigger, "The Rise of Civilization in Egypt," Cambridge History of Africa (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 1982), vol I, pp 489-90; S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54."
The full article in its context: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Nilotic_peoples
It seems people post what ever they want on wikipedia, I'm giving you mainstream and up to date scholarship on this very issue. Until you define "Black African" you have no case to judge weather or not the ancient Egyptians were "Black African" or not. As to play with words at its very literal meaning, if the ancients who first migrated to Egypt were indigenously African and from the south, then it certainly wouldn't be illogical to believe that they were "Black Africans" who maybe later were subject to invasions, etc (which explains the foreign DNA lineages of the Moderns), yet remained uniquely African also as can be seen in the mtDNA study I provided. I still don't see how some quotes from a psychologist and a comparative DNA chart of modern populations pleads the case that the Original Egyptians weren't just as African as any other African. Taharqa 21:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The "skin color" section reflects bias imo, and doesn't take into consideration that the original inhabitants of Egypt originated from some where south of Egypt and didn't settle until after the Ice Age, which is reflected in mainstream archeology/Egyptology and all over this page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Nilotic_peoples
Taharqa
22:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
^Exactly, and there are no sources for these opinions on the Skin Color and Genetics sections. None.. He quotes a psychologist (A psychologist for crying out loud!) for the genetics part, and shows a modern day skin color map with an accompanying opinion. As for your question on if the mummies will clump closer to sub-saharan Africans, well obviously, that's what the mtDNA study I posted would seem to say as they have a common ancestor from East Africa. And if you don't know where the Egyptians who started the classical civilization came from look up the Badari culture. Everyone knows, if you believe that they were "dark or light skinned" that they came from the south and the Sahara, and their skulls, even under old racial classification were considered "Tropical African". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badarian Taharqa 23:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I did that.. Thank you for keeping it fair and balanced! That was my only issue, and thanx for cleaning up my edits. Taharqa 01:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
what's the deal with the Origin of the Nilotic peoples? How accurate is that term anyway? Someone is trying to push a heavy afrocentric agenda with that fork, it's written like a high school paper. 207.195.246.86 17:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Are you serious? Read the article boy.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Nilotic_peoples
^Nothing Afrocentric about it, Nilotic refers to the indigenous people of the Nile valley. It's a way to avoid racial terms since these people are all native to North/East Africa and outdated racism has only confused our perception of these people in the past, by calling them "Caucasoid, Negroid, or Medit. They are all native Africans, Ethiopians, Ancient Egyptians, Nubians, Beja, etc, are all native to the area. Cut the racist crap, If I'm afrocentric then you're racist, so I'll accept that. Taharqa 17:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Egypt in Africa, 1996, pp. 23-24
Professor S.O.Y. Keita Department of Biological Anthropology Oxford University
Professor A. J. Boyce University Reader in Human Population Oxford University
What was the primary geographical source for the peopling of the Egyptian Nile Valley? Were the creators of the fundamental culture of southern predynastic Egypt—which led to the dynastic culture—migrants and colonists from Europe or the Near East? Or were they predominantly African variant populations?
These questions can be addressed using data from studies of biology and culture, and evolutionary interpretive models. Archaeological and linguistic data indicate an origin in Africa. Biological data from living Egyptians and from skeletons of ancient Egyptians may also shed light on these questions. It is important to keep in mind the long presence of humans in Africa, and that there should be a great range of biological variation in indigenous "authentic" Africans.
Scientists have been studying remains from the Egyptian Nile Valley for years. Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans.
Another source of skeletal data is limb proportions, which generally vary with different climatic belts. In general, the early Nile Valley remains have the proportions of more tropical populations, which is noteworthy since Egypt is not in the tropics. This suggests that the Egyptian Nile Valley was not primarily settled by cold-adapted peoples, such as Europeans.
Art objects are not generally used by biological anthropologists. They are suspect as data and their interpretation highly dependent on stereotyped thinking. However, because art has often been used to comment on the physiognomies of ancient Egyptians, a few remarks are in order. A review of literature and the sculpture indicates characteristics that also can be found in the Horn of (East) Africa (see, e.g., Petrie 1939; Drake 1987; Keita 1993). Old and Middle Kingdom statuary shows a range of characteristics; many, if not most, individuals depicted in the art have variations on the narrow-nosed, narrow-faced morphology also seen in various East Africans. This East African anatomy, once seen as being the result of a mixture of different "races," is better understood as being part of the range of indigenous African variation.
The descriptions and terms of ancient Greek writers have sometimes been used to comment on Egyptian origins. This is problematic since the ancient writers were not doing population biology. However, we can examine one issue. The Greeks called all groups south of Egypt "Ethiopians." Were the Egyptians more related to any of these "Ethiopians" than to the Greeks? As noted, cranial and limb studies have indicated greater similarity to Somalis, Kushites and Nubians, all "Ethiopians" in ancient Greek terms.
There are few studies of ancient DNA from Egyptian remains and none so far of southern predynastic skeletons. A study of 12th Dynasty DNA shows that the remains evaluated had multiple lines of descent, including not surprisingly some from "sub-Saharan" Africa (Paabo and Di Rienzo 1993). The other lineages were not identified, but may be African in origin. More work is needed. In the future, early remains from the Nile Valley and the rest of Africa will have to be studied in this manner in order to establish the early baseline range of genetic variation of all Africa. The data are important to avoid stereotyped ideas about the DNA of African peoples.
The information from the living Egyptian population may not be as useful because historical records indicate substantial immigration into Egypt over the last several millennia, and it seems to have been far greater from the Near East and Europe than from areas far south of Egypt. "Substantial immigration" can actually mean a relatively small number of people in terms of population genetics theory. It has been determined that an average migration rate of one percent per generation into a region could result in a great change of the original gene frequencies in only several thousand years. (This assumes that all migrants marry natives and that all native-migrant offspring remain in the region.) It is obvious then that an ethnic group or nationality can change in average gene frequencies or physiognomy by intermarriage, unless social rules exclude the products of "mixed" unions from membership in the receiving group. More abstractly this means that geographically defined populations can undergo significant genetic change with a small percentage of steady assimilation of "foreign" genes. This is true even if natural selection does not favor the genes (and does not eliminate them).
Examples of regions that have biologically absorbed genetically different immigrants are Sicily, Portugal, and Greece, where the frequencies of various genetic markers (and historical records) indicate sub-Saharan and supra-Saharan African migrants.
This scenario is different from one in which a different population replaces another via colonization. Native Egyptians were variable. Foreigners added to this variability.
The genetic data on the recent Egyptian population is fairly sparse. There has not been systematic research on large samples from the numerous regions of Egypt. Taken collectively, the results of various analyses suggest that modern Egyptians have ties with various African regions, as well as with Near Easterners and Europeans. Egyptian gene frequencies are between those of Europeans and some sub-Saharan Africans. This is not surprising. The studies have used various kinds of data: standard blood groups and proteins, mitochondrial DNA, and the Y chromosome. The gene frequencies and variants of the "original" population, or of one of early high density, cannot be deduced without a theoretical model based on archaeological and "historical" data, including the aforementioned DNA from ancient skeletons. (It must be noted that it is not yet clear how useful ancient DNA will be in most historical genetic research.) It is not clear to what degree certain genetic systems usually interpreted as non-African may in fact be native to Africa. Much depends on how "African" is defined and the model of interpretation.
The various genetic studies usually suffer from what is called categorical thinking, specifically, racial thinking. Many investigators still think of "African" in a stereotyped, nonscientific (nonevolutionary) fashion, not acknowledging a range of genetic variants or traits as equally African. The definition of "African" that would be most appropriate should encompass variants that arose in Africa. Given that this is not the orientation of many scholars, who work from outmoded racial perspectives, the presence of "stereotypical" African genes so far from the "African heartland" is noteworthy. These genes have always been in the valley in any reasonable interpretation of the data. As a team of Egyptian geneticists stated recently, "During this long history and besides these Asiatic influences, Egypt maintained its African identity . . ." (Mahmoud et al. 1987). This statement is even more true in a wider evolutionary interpretation, since some of the "Asian" genes may be African in origin. Modern data and improved theoretical approaches extend and validate this conclusion.
In summary, various kinds of data and the evolutionary approach indicate that the Nile Valley populations had greater ties with other African populations in the early ancient period. Early Nile Valley populations were primarily coextensive with indigenous African populations. Linguistic and archaeological data provide key supporting evidence for a primarily African origin.
References Cited:
Angel, J. L., and J. O. Kelley, Description and comparison of the skeleton. In The Wadi Kubbaniya Skeleton: A Late Paleolithic Burial from Southern Egypt. E Wendorf and R. Schild. pp. 53-70. Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press. 1986
Brauer, G., and K. Rimbach, Late archaic and modern Homo sapiens from Europe, Africa, and Southwest Asia: Craniometric comparisons and phylogenetic implications, Journal of Human Evolution 19:789-807. 1990
Drake, St. C., Black Folk Here and There, vol 1. Los Angeles: University of California. 1987
Keita, S.O.Y., Studies and comments on ancient Egyptian biological relationships. History in Africa 20:129-154. 1993
Mahmoud, L. et. al, Human blood groups in Dakhlaya. Egypt. Annah of Human Biology. 14(6):487-493. 1987
Paabo, S., and A. Di Rienzo, A molecular approach to the study of Egyptian history. In Biological Anthropology and the Study of Ancient Egypt. V. Davies and R. Walker, eds. pp. 86-90. London: British Museum Press. 1993
Petrie, W.M., F. The Making of Egypt. London: Sheldon Press. 1984
Thoma, A., Morphology and affinities of the Nazlet Khaterman. Journal of Human Evolution 13:287-296. 1984
^^End of debate, any person with a half of a brain can sit here and tell that the Egyptians weren't white. The real argument is how "black" they were and if it was black enough to be considered 3/5 of a human being in 18th Century America. I think so, seeing as how it was a diverse mix of different African populations from its inception.
Taharqa
06:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The Egyptians were not "mixed". They were indigenous Africans who migrated from the south and south/west from near the Sahara and the Sudan, this is the most widely accepted theory. The theory of "Mesopotamian" admixture has since been discredited by the mainstream. Dynastic Race Theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynastic_Race_Theory
These skull measurements that people cite have since been strongly challenged, as early Egyptian crania had more similarities with other Africans be it North or East Africans than Europeans. That wouldn't even make sense (that they have European crania) unless Europeans invaded Africa, which they did not until the Greek and Roman eras. 85% of genetic variance happens with in localized populations and natural selection pressures are causes for variation. It is of my opinion that these people, prior to foreign admixture, looked no different than any other Africans. As far as recent geographical ancestry, both Berber and Egyptians have traces of more ancient (yet recent evolution wise) East African ancestry, which is expected..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people#Genotype_by_region http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14748828
Also, the way they depicted themselves is overrated to say the least. They drew them selves red and women yellow, what race is literally red and yellow? These were only to make a distinction of nationality. People are hypocrites, first Eurocentrics argue that the Egyptians didn't see race the same as we do, then use those pictures as an argument that Egyptians saw themselves as a different "race". This simply comes from a misunderstanding of African culture. Ethiopians draw themselves blue sometimes and other Africans black. Some west Africans draw themselves very light brownish yellow to differentiate them selves. And all in all, most red people in the world live in Africa, and are just as authentically African, or "Black" (since no one is literally Black) as any other Africans. These are some of the people modern day Egyptians can trace their mtDNA to.. http://www.joshuaproject.net/profiles/photos/p110051.jpg
^^This Eritrean woman looks red to me, and more authentically African or "Black" than 80% of African Americans.
I don't see why people choose to pick on outdated radical Afrocentrism instead of arguing the facts, that these people were native to Africa, and migrated from the south and southwest. Since terms like Negroid and Caucasoid are obsolete in Anthropology, especially concerning Africa's diversity, the only question left is were these Africans dark skinned or light skinned? Seeing as how they (Egyptians) have a recent common ancestor in East Africa, 5,000 years ago, before any significant foreign admixture, I'd be inclined to believe that they looked a lot closer to their African counterparts in East Africa and the Nile Valley. Frank Yurco, Egyptologist, Affirms that the Egyptians were closest ethnically to the Nubians out of any of the other foreigners. And if the Nubians were artistically and stereotypically portrayed as jet-black, what would that tell you about their relationship with the Egyptians? Even to take those wall pictures literally, one would have to admit that at least they thought of themselves as the second darkest race in the ancient world. Taharqa 17:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
There is no way that people will ever come to common terms on this article because everybody thinks that they're right, and that they can over rule the sources with weak arguments that seem as if they were written by a child. All of my edits keep getting changed around and reworded in favor of Eurocentrism. Not to mention that people are deleting entire sections just because they have no arguments to refute them. Too many racists on the internet in general, if anyone has an opposing view to a Eurocentric one it's automatically deemed "Afrocentric" when more than likely it just reflects the truth. Radical Afrocentrism is saying that the greeks were black, the first Asians were black, blacks are Gods, etc. Now that's nonsense, but what is not nonsense is that the Egyptians were native Africans from Africa, and weren't subject to serious foreign influence for the first 1,000 years. But no one is going to post that no matter how many peer reviewed studies I post from different mainstream scientists and Egyptologists. Too much of a political agenda on here. Answers.com has this very same article and it is perfect, no bias what so ever and they come at it from all angles, including genetics. This article is pure crap and I request a deletion. Taharqa 18:51, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Cavalli-Sforza and Diop and Jensen. Their projects are heavily criticized by mainstream scientists. I'm going to add more mainstream sources, as this article is getting to polarized in the Genetics section. My opinion is that sources such as Diop and Jensen are too fringe/radical in their Afrocentrist and Eurocentrist views to get such attention over mainstream science. Wikipedia:NPOV backs me up on this, as this could be considered giving undue weight to the extreme positions rather than the most weight to the mainstream,m and only some mention of extreme views. USE GOOGLE SCHOLAR! Find more modern, more mainstream sources. That's what I'll be doing, as I have a couple minutes to spare at work.-- Urthogie 03:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph accusing the HGDP of "cultural insensitivity, neocolonialism, and biopiracy" is Original Research, meaning it introduces an opinion unrelated to the discussion of the genetics of ancient egypt. This quote is appropriate for the page on the HGDP, but not for this page.-- Urthogie 03:23, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North. See Bruce G. Trigger, "The Rise of Civilization in Egypt," Cambridge History of Africa (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 1982), vol I, pp 489-90; S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54."
The meaning of skin color and race are supposed to be covered in the Background: Race section. Please don't get the article muddled in definitions in the middle, people. Thanks, -- Urthogie 03:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
« The evidence suggests, it would appear, Saharan to mountainous North Africa was inhabited from an early date by quite diverse populations, some of which in modern popular perception would be 'white' "European" in appearance, some intermediate and some "black African." The argument about what 18th century Americans would percieve as to these ancient populations race is modern American race politics, not science. It should be discussed under such articles, not loaded on the backs of long dead Egyptians, whether "white" middle or otherwise. collounsbury 13:37, 24 February 2007 (UTC). » Collounsbury, you are making very strange affirmations. You are speaking about Africa being peopled from an early date by populations we would call « in modern popular perception (…) ‘white’ « European » in appearance ». « in appearance ». Are you not so sure? Please document your affirmations. The European type, called also Caucasoid is not first of all indigenous to Africa. Africa being totally peopled by Black people. Whites in Africa are invaders. Secondly, this European type reached continental Europe from central Russia during the second millennium BC. They entered Egypt during the same millennium, corresponding to the New Kingdom. They are know as the « people of the see ». The Semites entered Egypt before the Indo-European speaking people. It was during the second intermediary period. Actually, you are already contaminated by the modern racist ideology you are criticizing. It is the one which fabricated the white man of early Egypt! The ancestors of the modern Europeans and Asians knew a black Egypt, and they spoke about it. The Egyptians did not see themselves otherwise than black people (kmt + rmT). But you are going to say: « They are brown Egyptians ». You are right. Up to now, they are brown Black people. It is not a contradiction. The black race covers a large range of colors. Besides, the melanin test done by Cheikh Anta Diop on mummies showed that the ancient Egyptians had a rate of melanin incompatible with an idea of a white skin. Cheikh Anta Diop has not yet been contradicted on this point. I spoke about it to Urtogie in my past interventions. He will remember. If you know any counter-proof, please bring it forward. To finish, I agree with you that we have to do science, not ideology. Many Europeans have a problem, a psychological one as Cheikh Anta Diop put it in 1974 at the Cairo Conference on the peopling of ancient Egypt and the decipherment of the Meroitic scripts. Because of their education marked by a racist background, these White people, and among them well trained scholars, are unable of recognizing Egypt as a Black civilization. They became impermeable to proves against a so called « white » or « mix-race » society. It is time to move forward without them. Thus, we can reshuffle this article following the arguments given by Taharqa. Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 195.110.156.38 16:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The article is heavily biased right now with obvious racist views that it doesn't even make sense any more. I read that Nubian aren't black and that Ethiopians have strong Caucasian admixture. Nubians are about the blackest people you will find, and Ethiopian look the way they do because of their environment. Mountainous, that is why Somalis look so different than Ethiopians, Mountains make you lighter, straighter hair, longer nose, but not 'mixed' with caucasian necesaarily. By that logic native americans with flat noses and dark skin are black.
Further I see the silly equation of negroid with blackness. Negros are only one type of blacks, like Germanic is only one type of white. With all likely hood the Egyptian had dark brown/black skin as we see in their painting. They weren't as black as the Nubians but they obviously had brown skin. They obviously weren't white cause we syrian and the egyptian is nowhere near him in skin color. The Egyptians weren't Bantus for sure, Bantus may not have even existed then, they most likely were like the Nubians in physical features but lighter cause they lived further North. We know as a fact that Egypt gets to 130 degrees hot on average in the summer, so I just can't fairly argue that they were caucasian cause it doesn't make sense. They would get sunburn everyday. They would have looked like Nubians but lighter cause they have similar climates and terrian just nubia is further south. We know in Egyptology that ancient Egyptians came from the South anyways because it was a migration pattern. To argue that they are even part causian, you have to believe thaat man after leaving africa and going all the way to persia came back and displaced the black who settled in egypt in large enough numbers (millions) to change the populations characteristics. Did this happen? Yes it did, but not likely until the new kingdom or perhaps the middle. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.138.142 ( talk) 21:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
^What is your point? That just gives fuel to the argument that the original Egyptians were "Black African" since negroid is a misnomer and you accept the extreme variation in African phenotypes (like Elongated East Africans like the Tutsi, so-called "Capoids" in south Africa, Senegalese people who lack Prognathism, and the lighter skinned Berbers, but that can be from admixture, look at the Taureg). Obviously these people were not "Caucasoid" or native to Europe, or even native to the middle east. They were native to Africa. Seeing as how the only light skinned inhabitants of North Africa are all either foreign or mixed (Berbers, and this is confirmed, look up "origin of the Berbers"), what do you assume they were before the admixture and foreign occupation? Not to mention so many "dark skinned Africans" still live in and are indigenous to North Africa. It is extremely silly to me that North/Western European Caucasians even argue over Egypt, this is between the various ethnic Africans and maybe middle eastern people have some pull to join the debate, but I never understood why Anglos argue this so passionately. The debate is "how black" were they, not "how white".. What do white people have to do with this? I'm tired of people brain washing these kids, wikipedia step your game up and just tell the truth!! You're not sure if they were predominantly dark skinned or light skinned (given Africa's climate I doubt that) but they definitely weren't "White Anglo-Saxon" and even today modern Semite Egyptians (who are right under berbers) cluster closer to other Africans (yes, sub-saharans too) than Anglos! tell the kids that! I dare you.
Taharqa
20:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
To: Race and ancient Egypt. Why? Because "Racial characteristics" is not a good title-- it suggests that such "racial" characteristics truly exist, a sentiment most anthropologists would disagree with.-- Urthogie 00:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Quick question on that pigment map, What the Hell does it have to do with the "ANCIENT" Egyptians. As it has been mentioned during 600-700A.D. Egypt was invaded by Arabs and people of lighter complexions that were mixed with the Native Black Africans of that region. I second that comment about to post above whites have nothing to do with this argument. 74.128.200.135 03:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
False, the skin map only tells us what the indigenous people look like now, as far as skin color goes. I guess it tries to estimate what skin colors a particular region would produce, given the nature of its "current" indigenous population, they took samples from live modern indigenous populations, not the ancients Egyptians. Just look at the Beja who inhabit the same region and has for thousands of years, almost unaffected by Arab invasions. http://www.4egypt.info/images/bejakids.jpg
Not to mention that the classic Egyptians did not adapt fully in the land mass that we call Egypt, it is thought instead that they migrated some time after the start of the Neolithic from some where south and south/west, basically closer to the equator than any northern populations. Taharqa 17:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I can and have provided sources for everything that I say.. Read carfully, this is a quote from the biggest Afrocentric critic of all time, you know, the one who wrote "Not Out Of Africa"..
The Egyptians didn't adapt to Egyptian climate, this is "mainstream" opinion, not just mine.
Saharan-Sudanic inheritance of Nile Valley settlers. Data on the peopling of the Nile Valley do not appear to support earlier historical notions of an initial wave of Caucasoid invaders entering from the North to introduce civilization. Mainstream data shows gradual movement and peopling from the south- the Saharan zone and associated parts of the Sudanic region, fusing with indigenous Nilotic elements already in place, leading into the development of the well-known Egyptian kingdoms, not sweeping insertions from the Mediterranean, Mesopotamia or elsewhere.(AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 83:35-48 (1990)
[3] See Wiki article
Predynastic Egypt for the now discounted
Dynastic Race Theory. As to the Saharan movement even Afrocentric critics such as Mary Lefkowitz note:
I removed this quote from the demographics section..
"This does not indicate what race the Egyptians were, but if true, it would disprove both the Dynastic Race Theory and the Afrocentric theory of Ancient Egypt (which both argue that Egyptians used to look more like sub-saharan Africans before demographic effects from Mesopotamia effected the region):"
^First of all, it does refute the Dynastic Race theory, but anyone familiar with "afrocentric claims" knows that this is not what the afrocentrics argue. The argument is that first of all, there was no true brick wall barrier between sub-saharan Africa and the rest of Africa, that's a racist term(sub-saharan).. Look up saharan pump theory, there was no barrier during these migrations to Egypt. Secondly, the main argument is that there is no definitive sub-saharan look. A lot of Egyptian cranial studies have clustered the Egyptians closer to Somalis. This is adaptation to micro-climates according to C. Loring Brace. That these drier regions produce slimmer features, but these people are still at the same latitude of those in West Africa. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/brace.pdf
Keita's argument..
Keita writes: "In general, this restricted view presents all tropical Africans with narrower noses and faces as being related to or descended from external, ultimately non-African peoples. However, narrow-faced, narrow-nosed populations have long been resident in Saharo-tropical Africa... and their origin need not be sought elsewhere. These traits are also indigenous. The variability intropical Africa is expectedly naturally high. Given their longstanding presence, narrow noses and faces cannot be deemed `non-African.'" Afrocentrics argue a full, biologically African Egypt that has nothing to do with outside influence, and that most likely they had darker complexions and more genetic affinities with other localized populations on the Nile Valley Taharqa 17:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
^First of all, you'd have to define "Afrocentric", Bernal claims not to be Afrocentric, yet he's labeled one in this article. Second, did you read Keita's argument? 3rd, you provide a source, I'm not the one making this baseless claim and speaking for "all" Afrocentrics in academia. I also removed some obscure claim about Egyptians not looking "sub-saharan" because of the sahara, even though I provided a source claiming that the Sahara was not a barrier, you people decide to keep the one with out a source for what ever biased reason, so I removed the un-cited opinion of some editor who's using desperate arguments to confuse people of the real issue here.
Taharqa
18:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
^Thank you! I'm actually surprised, thought that you were being biased, but that's very reasonable of you. Commendable..
Taharqa
18:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I removed this from the genetics section.
"A 2005 study[10] of ancient Egyptian craniofacial characteristic published in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology found that:
The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World.
The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World."
^^I'm not exactly sure what this has to do with genetic research on the origins of the ancient egyptians, I'd be glad if someone can explain. Maybe this should be put in a different section?
Taharqa
01:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^Alright, great.. I added another study to it then as well, that sheds relevant light on this situation.. Keita found that early predynastic crania had more affinities with Tropical Africans than Europeans, also emphasizing that any perceived population shift isn't due to migration into Egypt.
Taharqa
02:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^I don't know about all of that, that actually contradicts the studies. Mesopotamian influence is considered "limited".. I agree that the Egyptians were "probably" various shades of brown, but that's due to the variation in Africa more so then due to admixture. At least that's the common consensus among most scholars recently.
Taharqa 02:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^The influence of the Mesopotamians is actually an old theory that's been debunked basically. But yea, more people just point to the variation in Africa as an explanation for different features and previously perceived population shift.
Oh, and I removed the last paragraph from the intro that stated something about mainstream consensus being that "a small minority" looked like what we'd call black today. Not true, never heard that argument. Anthropologists try and eliminate racial stereotypes if anything.
As far as the language section, what does KM.t meaning "something black" have to do with racial characteristics?
Taharqa 03:15, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
1. I'd like you to quote one shlolar who says that there was Mesopotamian influence, that is not in any of the sources, none. They all said maybe some, but the majority was indigenous.
2. We're not concerned with how some people may view ancient Egyptians. The fact is, Anthropologists don't say the Egyptians were different shades of brown, and some looked like this "race" and some looked like that race". Quote someone who says that. That is your opinion honestly, none of the sources say that.
3. The dynastic race theory is practically debunked sir.
"The Dynastic Race Theory is no longer the dominant thesis in the field of Predyanstic Archaeology, and has been largely replaced by the theory that Egypt was a Hydraulic empire, on the grounds that such contacts are much older than the Naqada II period," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynastic_Race_Theory
4. If you had read the sources, the changes in the crania measurements were due to variation inside of Africa, not outside! These people were just different kind of Africans, the debate is weather all Africans can be considered black, that's what people are still holding on to.
I have to remove this because it supports nothing in this article and it attacks Diop when Diop was in no way proven wrong, Eurocentrics were. We're still debating over skin color, but their origin isn't a big question any more. Please read the sources before you write these opinions, it's so contradictory. For someone to "look" middle eastern, you're speaking for people who don't believe in any specific racial look, specifically since Africans have different features, go back to my Keita quote, please.
I have to remove this, it's wrong..
The current mainstream scientific view is that Egyptians came in various shades of brown.(Not True, no one said that, it's your own inference) Based solely on their appearence, American society today would view many of the ancient Egyptians as "black" ( Maybe, maybe not, you're speaking hypothetically)--
others would be viewed as Middle Easterners(Hypothetical, this is unscientific, how do we know what they'd think?). However, Afrocentric scholars claim that dynastic Egypt was a primarily "black", African civilization, with most inhabitants being similar in appearence to other sub-Saharan African peoples(there is no definitive look in sub-saharan Africa. All of them don't have big lips and noses, go back to the Keita quote, this is unscientific and baseless).
Although the vast majority of Egyptologists and anthropologists today do not support the Afrocentrist view of ancient Egypt(What is the overall Afrocentric view"? Diop is dead, and he only claimed them to be "black" or Negroe which are old racial designations"), Afrocentric research by Cheikh Anta Diop definitely had a significant effect on Egyptology, debunking Eurocentrist theories of Egyptian history. There is also a seperate, but related debate, concerning the extent and effect of Mesopotamian migration into Egypt.(this is not a big debate, you're confusing the issue)
^This tells lies to confuse people, probably unintentional, but you speak for the majority of academia yet this is not reflected in the sources. Quote some of your sources who says any of that.
And for those who believe in race, this doesn't mean "mixed race" even if race were valid. How? There's no source for that. They'd all come from this branch.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africoid Taharqa 15:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
1. Can you please quote one of your sources, I've read through them and none of them say anything about them being "Mixed".. That's not true, quote them please, please do. I'm asking politely.
2. Again, call me Afrocentric if you want, which isn't an insult anyways, but none of your sources say anything about skin color neither does it sum up the mainstream view from any journal or poll or anything.
3. Call me an Afrocentric if you keep wanting to, but I've exposed your biased Eurocentrism earlier (that you call a mistake) already so that doesn't bother me. Besides the point though.
4. Since you're making the claim that there's a debate about the extant of "Mesopotamians" genetic influence that impacts demographics, you post the source, please. You have no source, the sources say that there was minimal demographic shift as a cause of outside migration, read the 2007 study. The conclusion was that "It seems more so to be indigenous", that's the mainstream view.
5. What article goes out of its way to say "mixed race"? How old is the article? Is that the mainstream view from qualified anthropologists? This isn't making any sense now. The sources contradict a mixed race theory, all of them. Your sources don't concern themselves with answering the question of race.
Urthogie, read Keita's quote, that says nothing about "mixed race", different sized crania does not = mixed race. And that study was from 1993, the dynastic race theory and misconceptions of race was more prevalent then. That's the variety of Africa, not racial admixture. Taharqa 20:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
6. Diop is dead, and you find a "qualified academic" Afrocentrist who claims that Egyptians were "Black Africans", even though there is no difference between a darker and lighter skinned African in the eyes of Afrocentrics because they all adapted in Africa, that's their more recent arguments. You provide the source since you're making the claim, it makes no sense that you put that burden on me. Also, no one says that they migrated from North Africa to North Africa, it says they most likely migrated from Sudanic and Saharan zones, so the Sahara or Sub-Sahara, that's more of a debate. Mesopotamian migration is debunked.
Taharqa
16:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^Okay, you stopped talking like a scientist a long time ago. What is a "Black person", what are they racially. How different were they from any other indigenous Africans who were dark? That makes no sense, anthropology doesn't agree with that. Again, read this.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africoid
And read this.
The Dynastic Race Theory is no longer the dominant thesis in the field of Predyanstic Archaeology, and has been largely replaced by the theory that Egypt was a Hydraulic empire, on the grounds that such contacts are much older than the Naqada II period,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynastic_Race_Theory
^Mainstream consensus!
Taharqa
16:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
And I'm not debating with you, just trying to stop unsourced opinions from getting into the article. Be objective, make this article scientific, don't litter it and confuse the issue with words like "Americans may view them as", or they were a "Mixed race", but I don't know what they were mixed with. Just keep it neutral and scientific. Oh, and Egyptologists don't study race.
I didn't ignore what you wrote, I'm having a hard time seeing what you're saying and it seems as if you're ignoring me. Africoid isn't debunked, how can an arbitrary racial category be debunked? Wow, anyways Negroid was a term used to describe so-called blacks, but given the variety in Africa, that classification has fallen apart. Caucasoid is also now obsolete and certain biases of the past have been exposed due to these racial categories. If you would please read what I posted I think it's obvious that Mesopotamia was not so much a factor in Ancient Egypt and we can stop talking about them as much. This is between the Africans so to speak. Just read what I posted, you respond so quick I know you didn't check this source. I can't go back and fourth when you're not even trying. My main point is this, we both agree then that the dynastic race theory is basically debunked, so little to no middle eastern genetic influence. Now we're arguing racial characteristics, a mixed race would have to belong to a separate race and no where do these people indicate what race the Egyptians are, let alone if they were mixed, this is the inquiry, should we even assign anyone, including them to any race? Are they Africoid? Caucasoid(that word is obsolete, so no)? Those broad statements that were in the intro just didn't touch on anything relevant to this conversation and confuses the issue, and is not backed by the sources, especially the 2007 study. It would contradict that study, no one qualified argues for a "Mixed" society from onset, that used to be the argument, that's what the dynastic race theory is Taharqa 16:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Original research introduces an analysis, synthesis, explanation, or interpretation of published facts, opinions, or arguments without attributing that analysis, synthesis, explanation, or interpretation to a reliable source who has published the material in relation to the topic of the article.
This is precisely what you're doing. You're analyzing the sources and saying that "mixed-race" is false. You aren't allowed to do this, because you aren't a Wikipedia:Reliable source. It's against Wikipedia policy, so I'm reverting you. Please read the policy page Wikipedia:Attribution.-- Urthogie 17:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
And there is no "original research" on my part, I've cited independent researchers and anthropologists who are all renowned, nor did I give any of my opinions, let the data speak. I don't speak for the mainstream, especially when this isn't mainstream view.
^The point of the whole matter is choice of words. You wrote "Mainstream consensus", that isn't mainstream consensus, mainstream consensus is that the dynastic race theory is debunked and that Egypt was indigenous. None of your sources study anything about Egypt's racial affinities nor draw precise conclusions that can be attributed to mainstream anthropology. I can give you a source that said they were all "black", from a scientist, two or three, but this doesn't make it a mainstream view. You're trying to confuse the world with your nonsensical personal inferences that don't reflect the sources, which isn't right. You've already made numerous mistakes, now I guess you're using ad hominems and trying to save face. Who are you to speak for the mainstream and why can't you give me a quote from one of those sources that backs up a mixed race theory? I've read and there's no racial research done nor does it sum up mainstream opinion. Taharqa 17:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
1. No where do the sources indicate a "gesalt of mesopotamian and north african ethnicities"
Not true..
2. "Black African" isn't a race, Diop is dead, and this isn't what Afrocentrics argue. Provide a source that says otherwise, that "all afrocentrics" fall into this category, or even most.
3. No one says what they were mixed with and no anthropologist in "today's 2007" mainstream view believe that these people were "mixed", provide a source for that, otherwise you're hurting the integrity of the article and putting in sourceless opinions and material. Especially the last paragraph.
Taharqa
17:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Not true in updated scholarship.
We're talking about Egypt's onset and actual research, not from looking at portraits, or 2 or 3 people's opinions. The demographics section says nothing about being mixed with Mesopotamian, nor do the intro sources, quote where you saw that please. Mainstream view = more than 2 people agree, someone that is qualified enough to speak for the majority of the field. Not some obscure person making a claim, choose your words carefully please, this is not mainstream view. Taharqa 17:32, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
1. Where do anthropologists and scientists say that the original egyptians were different shades of brown? 2. Where does it say that they were mixed with Meso-middle eastern? I think this is just what you want people to think honestly, I don't know why you insist on putting up unsourced material.
Taharqa
17:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I think I see the source of our disagreement. You're right to say that the term "gestalt" is too controversial, as it might have been a very small effect from migration. I'm going to adjust this, tell me what you think.-- Urthogie 17:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
For now, I don't have that big of a problem with what you wrote, besides the last paragraph.. About them being various shades of brown and bringing up a dead scholar from 50 years ago to disagree with, and using a broad term like "Black African" which has no scientific basis and means different things to different people. Also this paragraph was not sourced and can hurt the article and reputation of diop when this is still in debate. Also Egyptologists aren't qualified to determine the race of the Egyptians, only Bio-Anthropologists can tell us that so that's suspect too, but I'll lay off that for now.
Taharqa
17:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^Because it isn't a proven fact and has no source, no one thinks or takes issue with that. A lot of so-called black people have different shades and so do a lot of middle easterners. But we never seen an ancient egyptian nor have we done melanin tests. Well Diop did, but let's leave that out.
^How about if you don't know much about Afrocentrism, just leave it out until someone qualified, with a source can post the view from Afrocentrism and what Diop was trying to get across? And I put a lack of importance banner above the section because Egyptologists aren't concerned with race. Their opinions on race is no more valid than ours. I know that you know the definitions but I'll post them for others so they see what I mean.
Egyptology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptology
Anthropology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropology Taharqa 18:07, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^How is this a fact? Name one anthropologist who has studied Egyptian remains that agrees with that? The only way to possibly know is through a skin dosage test. You're just talking now, again, this has no source. This is your personal inference and maybe the view of one or two Egyptologists, but that's just an opinion not based on science. Although I do agree somewhat with how you reworded things, I just have a problem with opinions being displayed as facts. I won't blank it though, I simply added a "citation needed" stamp. Oh, and I appreciate your neutrality, even though at first it seemed like some sort of bias but I just see that you're trying to understand different view points and act accordingly. Can't fault you for that. Taharqa 18:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^Alright, Cool.. Taharqa 20:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Alk:Ancient_Egypt_and_race&action=edit
^This isn't accessable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ancient_Egypt_and_race#Mixed_race
^And this is totally misrepresented as it does not support "mix-race", in fact, it's illusive and tells us nothing. Not to mention that it's an old study from 14 years ago, not to say it isn't valid, but perceptions of things were slightly different then anyways. Take the abstract with in its full context.
ABSTRACT The biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians were tested against their neighbors and selected prehistoric groups as well as against samples representing the major geographic population clusters of the world. Two dozen craniofacial measurements were taken on each indi- vidual used. The raw measurements were converted into C scores and used to produce Euclidean distance dendrograms. The measurements were prin- cipally of adaptively trivial traits that display patterns of regional similar- ities based solely on genetic relationships. The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities in trivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southward through Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selec- tive forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur. An assessment of "race" is as useless as it is impossible. Neither clines nor clusters alone suffice to deal with the biological nature of a widely distributed population. Both must be used. We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either inva- sions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well. o1993 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
I'm still not satisfied with your sources and feel that you're unintentionally misrepresenting them. This study has nothing to do with skin shades or racial admixture, and doesn't tell us anything of interest..
^Source#4 is this one
Source#5 doesn't even mention a mixed race, the words race and Egypt were simply highlighted. No mention of "mix race", just Egyptian.
Source#6 Is simply about race as a social construct and mentions "modern" Egypt and the case of Mostafa Hefny who considers himself "black". They make no mention of Ancient Egypt and these people are not Egyptologists or Anthropologists, it has nothing to do with the topic at all.
Source#7 Is just a critique of Afrocentrism, makes no mention to shades of brown or "mixed race" of ancient Egypt. Who ever wrote this wasn't interested in Egyptology or Anthropology either, it's just a write up by a writer... I Seriously went through it all, I don't know what's going on but those sources truly didn't bring home the point that was trying to be made in no way. Let's just leave the "Mixed" stuff out for now, it's easier. Taharqa 21:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^What do they say about "Ancient" Egypt?
--
Urthogie
23:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie.. Source#7 has no page 133, there is no review from pages 89 - 212.
Source#5 page 42 indeed makes this claim, but take into consideration who the author is. Paul Johnson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Johnson_(writer)
^He is neither an Egyptologist nor an Anthropologist, you're sourcing writers. This is not mainstream view in Egyptological Anthropology or in academia. I'm a writer too, what difference does that make?
Again, what does source#6 "Race" say about the Ancients? Nothing I suppose? How is that a source for mainstream qualified opinion on "Ancient Egypt"? What do slaves have to do with anything? This articles needs a big clean up, there's a lot of sloppy and unqualified sources being presented to try and prove something that isn't supported by the data. Why would you say that, and then contradict the studies right below? Taharqa 00:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^Who were the slaves and what race were they? Were they a part of Ancient Egypt? And how does that reflect mainstream view of a mixed race Ancient Egypt? This isn't making sense anymore, come on Urgothie.
Urgothie, no it does not support that, just read it. And why are you posting non-Anthropologists and old website articles? You're searching too hard to find something that fits your beliefs. They mention that Egypt was a melting pot, which is obvious and tells us nothing of who the original people were. And I'm sorry, but there is no page 133 for the source on Afrocentrism, there just isn't. At least it isn't visible to anyone accept you. If I'm wrong, please feel free to post the quote, any short quote from that page that deals with Ancient Egypt and race Taharqa 00:25, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll search for the other page, but is one source truly fit to represent mainstream opinion? Especially when the studies disagree? What if I were to post an opposing mainstream view that says they weren't mixed? Could you accept that, or are we only relying on a historian that has the same racial concepts of the layman? Taharqa 00:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Let's end this right now then, these are actual qualified sources and updated studies. They agree that variety in early Egypt was not due to admixture, but suggests continuity just like the 2007 study suggests.
Continuity of Nile valley populations over extended periods
Some current dental studies of ancient Egyptians as a whole over the millenia show continuity between early racial or cultural types peopling Egypt, well into the dynastic period, and show that these peoples had a wide range of characteristics including Nubian, Saharan, Nilotic and Levantine. Such variability makes make rigid racial taxonomies, or selective highlighting, grouping and labeling as "Middle Eastern" or "Mediterranean" or sweeping genetic claims of outside influence problematic. [5] The issue of continuity with past Egyptian racial stocks has also been raised in older scholarship since the 1960s, most notably the case of the fellahin in Egypt, which are referenced as an indicator of a more ancient genetic strand associated with Negroid or Sudanic/Saharan influences. [6]
Some older studies also suggest continuity of racial stocks in Egypt. A British analysis of craniometric traits from several Egyptian predynastic gravesites showed a wide range of physical variability, making it difficult to establish a rigid taxonomy of races. However the same study compared craniometric traits found on the Egyptian samples, to samples from other areas such as Caanan and found limited matches with the predynastic crania. It thus concluded that at no time did any non-Egyptian group provide a significant change to the Egyptian gene pool for the length of the Pharaonic monarchy. As noted with the example of the fellahin above, the genetic or racial elements on the ground (whatever the unique mix of racial types that made up Egypt), at least in the early millenia of Egyptian civilization, were thus not significantly affected by any influx of distant outsiders from Mesopotamia, the Mediterranean or elsewhere. Such outsiders, like the well known Hyksos, were to appear in significant numbers on the scene much later, about 1000 years after Eygptian dynastic civilization had been established. ("Genetical Change in Ancient Egypt," Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, 1967). [7]
^If you know how to read anthropological jargon, then there's no need for the precise words "they weren't mixed race" to be written. This is a break down as to why they were not and the view from mainstream science, not some historian (not being rude).
Continuity extends into dynastic period of kingship and nation building This continuity holds into the early dynastic period, in that elements from the South, (a region closer to the Sahara and the Sudan), brought about the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt, ushering in the early Egyptian dynasties. This union is of monumental significance in Egyptian history, and was considered as such by the Egyptians themselves. It does not appear to be a crude tribal polity awaiting inspiration from Mediterranean or Near Eastern outsiders, as asserted by the now discredited Dynastic Race Theory. Union provided a stable umbrella that helped shape the creative and productive energies of their civilization for millennia to come. (Encyclopedia Britannica, 1984 ed. Egypt, History of," p. 464-65) [8]
Actually, source 3, or paragraph 2 says something about "whatever the mix of racial stocks were", they weren't affected by outside influence like the Medit or Meso-Middleeastern. So if there was a "Mix", it was between Africans. But other interpretations are that it wasn't so much of an admixture as it was population variation and continuity, as is reflected in the other sources. I just strongly feel that the Middle East or Mes-potamia needs to be tooken out of the equation unless the dynastic theory can revive its self.
Taharqa
00:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^Well at least this proves that Mesopotamia wasn't a factor. And continuity generally is another way of saying that they were basically the same people and were unchanged or not changed very much genetically through its civilization. No one from a scientific point of view will tell you that the Egyptians were "Mixed", so if you're going outside of science, then you're speaking socially, someone's social point of view. You ask someone else they'd say something different, that's why we rely on empirical data to answer these questions, for those who are considered authorities on the subject, which are Anthropologists, Archaeologists, and some Egyptologists. There really is no argument unless we can get some straight foward sources. And If anything you simply have to admit that the large majority is against any "outside" (Meso-Middle Eastern) contributions. So we should agree to leave Mesopotamia out of this unless we're to add other debunked theories from all sides also.
Taharqa
01:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Are you serious? Come on now, your sources are unworthy. None of them are Egyptologists, yet you claim that this is the view of "Mainstream Egyptology". And no one supports Mesopotamian influence if any at all, how many times do I have to direct you to the Dynastic Race theory page? And Keita says 1% over a "long period of time" causes a huge different, stop taking him out of context please. The conclusion was not that of a "Mixed race", but of genetic and cultural continuity of indigenous people, no mention of Mesopotamia. And the 2007 study concludes that it was mainly indigenous, with maybe limited migration from elsewhere, but she doesn't mention from where, especially Mesopotamia. Let's be rational here.
Taharqa
01:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^None of them are "Egyptologists" as you claim them, so you should have to prove that they are Mainstream Egyptologists or come from Egyptology and that they didn't just do research on it and wrote a paper. The section on "Race" has nothing to do with Egyptology. Neither does the Afrocentrism article, that's and Afrocentric critic. And the one written by the historian, is what it is, written research from a historian, but Paul Johnson is not an Egyptologist or part of the field. Prove otherwise please. Taharqa 01:55, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^Then stop claiming that "Egyptologists say this and say that, just say some mainstream scholars, then give another view. That's misrepresentation and not being neutral as studies from the actual qualified people in question, deny such claims.. Plus, no one mentions Mesopotamia except you. Taharqa 02:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^No it isn't, I've explained that, these are researchers and secondary sources relying on "primary sources".
Secondary sources are documents or people that summarize, analyze and/or interpret other material, usually primary source material. These are academics, journalists, and other researchers, and the papers and books they produce. A journalist's description of a traffic accident he did not witness, or the analysis and commentary of a president's speech, are secondary sources. Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources wherever possible. This means that we only publish the opinions of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves. Taharqa 02:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
1. The fact is that these people are not "Egyptologists nor do they specialize in it, yet you referr to them as "Egyptologists and not researchers.
2. 2 of your sources have nothing to do with answering the question of what race the Ancients were, especially the "Race" article.
3. You are simply just being stubborn you believe and choose to ignore the data, so you search high and low for old articles just to save face I guess so that you can be right in some way.
The real issue is this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words#Improving_weasel-worded_statements
I'll leave it at that, I can't go back and fourth when some one is just being stubborn or just doesn't know how to interpret data. And again, none of your sources say anything about Mesopotamia, they really don't, you really just need that in there for some reason, but whatever, go ahead and lie, I'm tired. Taharqa 02:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I had to change the description of the first study in the Crania section accordingly. It's a 1993 study, not from 2005 as it was previously stated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt_and_race#_note-10
Clines and clusters versus "Race:" a test in ancient Egypt and the Death on the Nile
http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/brace.pdf
C. Loring Brace, David P. Tracer, Lucia Allen Yaroch, John Robb, Kari Brandt and A. Russell Nelson. 1993. Clines and clusters versus "race:" A test in ancient Egypt and a case of a death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:26
^I just noticed that this same 1993 study was cited three different times. Wow.. That's weird. Taharqa 20:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
“The first dynasty was already a mix between Mesopotamians and Northern Africans. This is my view. Please don't misquote it.--Urthogie 17:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)”. Urthogie, I told you in the past that it is difficult to prove the claim that Mesopotamian Civilizations did have any influence at the birth of the Egyptian Civilization. I quoted a book published in 2007 which shows that Egypt was in advance in the line of history compared to Mesopotamian Civilizations. Besides, the Egyptian civilization is better known than the Mesopotamian civilizations, in such a way that it might be more convenient to explain Mesopotamia from an African Egyptian perspective than the contrary! These are the quotations: “The Egyptian history extends in a period of time of more than three thousands of years and – thanks to a written and monumental documentation which is surely the most rich of any other civilization of these times – can be studied, at least in the main lines, with much more accuracy (La storia egiziana si stende su un arco di tempo di oltre millenni – grazie a una documentazione scritta e monumentale che è certo la più ricca fra quelle di ogni altra civiltà di quei tempi – può essere tracciata, almeno nelle grande linee, con sufficiente sicurezza)” (La storia, 1. Dalla preistoria all’antico Egitto, Novara: Istituto Geografico De Agostini SpA, UTET, 2007, p. 621). Egypt inaugurates his first dynasty in 3185 (La storia, p. 733). In Mesopotamia, the first proto-dynastic period takes place in 2900-2800. “2900-2800. Proto-dynastic period I: it is a period of insufficient archaeological documentation (2900-2800. Periodo protodinastico I: è una fase di scarsa documentazione archeologica)” (Storia, p. 615). The same idea was already expressed by The Columbia Encyclopedia: “ The valley of the long river between the deserts, with the annual floods and deposits of life-giving silt and with its equable climate, was the seat of one of the oldest civilizations built by man into an organic whole – rivaled, indeed, only by the somewhat more obscure cultures of Mesopotamia. Grain was grown early in the valley of the Nile. The earliest known date in world history is the adoption of the calendar, which has been set at 4241 B.C.” ( William Bridgwater and Elizabeth J. Sherwood (Editors), “The Columbia Encyclopedia in one volume”, Morningside Heights, New York: Columbia University Press, 1950, second edition, p. 596). Urthogie, how do you explain the fact that the first Egyptian nome is in Nubia, in the south, but not in Mesopotamia or in Arabia, in the East? “Tз-Sti, Nubia, properly Ist nome of Upper Egypt; Styw Nubians” (Alan Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar. Being an Introduction to the Study of Hieroglyphs, Oxford: Griffith Institute, Ashmolean Museum, 2001, Third edition, p. 593) It is time, Urthogie, to do a small exercise. If Egypt received a migration from Mesopotamia, one would expect that the Egyptian culture keeps traces of it. Give the list of cultural element common to Egypt and Mesopotamia prior to invasions of Semitic People: language, art, science, customs.-- 195.110.156.38 22:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^That's pretty much on point, but minor selective phenotype variation doesn't really matter in concern to "race", since selection happens all over Africa. I think that he's basically arguing that the state of Ancient Egypt wasn't a result of admixture, but these were all the same indigenous people from the predynastic onward, which is confirmed by the studies.
Taharqa
00:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^Not true, you simply have to understand how this variation works according to the field of Anthropology. Sub-Saharan Africans and Africans in general can't be confined to these old racial designations from 1993. This only showed who their skulls were similar to, this doesn't mean they had any relationship what so ever with those people genetically. Sub-saharans have similar skulls, it all varies. Read this if you can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ancient_Egypt_and_race#The_Geographical_Origins_and_Population_Relationships_of_Early_Ancient_Egyptians
Taharqa
00:53, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^So are you debunking my source basically? You're that stubborn? And who claims that the skulls changed all that much if any? Did you read the sources and the data? Interpretations are changing, not the Ancients. And Egypt is in no way "cool", it's much hotter than anywhere in Europe and the valley of the kings can reach 110 degrees. That's irrelevant though, really.
Taharqa
01:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
If the studies suggest continuity from the predynastic into the dynastic I'd be motivated to tell you that there's no difference between the two. And where does the source indicate significant Mesopotamian genetic input and influence? What are you reading?
In summary, various kinds of data and the evolutionary approach indicate that the Nile Valley populations had greater ties with other African populations in the early ancient period. Early Nile Valley populations were primarily coextensive with indigenous African populations. Linguistic and archaeological data provide key supporting evidence for a primarily African origin.
Doesn't even mention Mesopotamia.
Taharqa 01:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, first of all, this seems like original research.
"introduces an argument without citing a reliable source who has made that argument in relation to the topic of the article"
The sources don't support "Mesopotamian" influence in their genetic make up. They don't mention it.
books?hl=en&lr=&id=ROuqj_xIRMoC&oi=fnd&pg=PP9&sig=kYQT8VmrQ8rltrBBXSNxo3VynoM&dq=egypt+race#PRA2-PA4,M1
This right here. http://books.google.com/ ^This isn't a qualified source as it doesn't pertain to the subject at hand, "Ancient Egypt". Nor does it try and sum up any claim that Ancient Egypt was of "Mix race" and Mesopotamian admixture.
^Makes just one obscure reference to the Egyptians being of mixed race, yet they don't mention Mesopotamia.
And this source.
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=pFrm19cZhugC&oi=fnd&pg=PA213&sig=V7SsiWMtcbYrG1-xlp4urGnIAMQ
^Is but a critique on Afrocentrism and isn't in relation to the topic at hand, "Ancient Egypt and race".
Weasel words:
"Mainstream consensus" "Egyptologists"
Weasel words are words or phrases that seemingly support statements without attributing opinions to verifiable sources, lending them the force of authority without letting the reader decide whether the source of the opinion is reliable. If a statement can't stand on its own without weasel words, it lacks neutral point of view, and the lack of given sources also implies a verifiability issue. Either a source for the statement should be found, or the statement should be removed.
How are we to check up on the mainstream view of "Egyptologists", when no sources are cited? None of these people are Egyptologists, and Egyptologists are secondary sources in comparison to Anthropologists when we're to inquire about "race". And I can't emphasize enough that mesopotamia was not mentioned. Taharqa 03:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^I only removed what was unsourced and not supported by the article.. And the article was contradicting its self.. Added the brace study back.. And rearranged the words then.
From a demographic perspective, ancient Egypt is regarded by mainstream Egyptologists today as having primarily indigenous origins, and having experienced limited demographic effects from foreign influence. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/brace.pdf[4] "We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either inva- sions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well." Taharqa 03:39, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^This is a primary source.. Oh, and I changed the words a bit on this quote, and took out the "genetic shift part".
The degree of any demographic changes that may have occured between the pre-dynastic and dynastic periods are still debated in the scientific community.
^Genetics aren't the center of debate regarding that matter. This is a matter of physical anthropology, but other than that it looks cleaned up a bit better now. Taharqa 03:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
What do you think of my newest edits?-- Urthogie 03:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
it said something about Dynastic Egyptians not clustering with sub-saharans genetically and used the Brace study as a source, when brace makes no such claim. He says race couldn't be determined and wasn't concerned with genetics. He didn't test mummy dna or anything, just skulls. Other than that, article looks better. Yea, it looks better like this and takes into account other views, at the same time reflects the sources. Yea..
Taharqa
04:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
It looks real good now, one thing to consider though, is that cranial measurements don't indicated genetic relationships and that isn't what can be inferred from the sources. Everything is on point though.
Taharqa
04:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll try, You can do it too, but the shades of brown thing wasn't reflected in the brace study that was sourced, this is what he said about the populations and gave his opinion on skin color.
"the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selec- tive forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur." Taharqa 04:42, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^But that's considered original research, it's up to the reader to infer rather the regions around Egypt produced certain skin tones, or if the Ancients were bound by these selective pressures. The source makes no mention of these words. You can use Diop and Keita as a source if they say that. I truly have no idea of their skin color, in my humble opinion they weren't all blue-black and were various shades of brown, I do agree. It's just that I'd rather the reader make their own inference from the data and not what we think of how Egypt was Taharqa 04:56, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^Actually, Diop's melanine test indicated that they were "dark-skinned", I didn't want to bring that up. Diop didn't argue for "different shades of brown" at all, lol. Sorry, but that's kind of funny. You know what? Why don't you change it to something like, Egyptologists agree that the Egyptians were "probably" or "most-likely" different shades of brown given the fact that, that seems to be the nature of today's surrounding indigenous inhabitants, and the remaining indigenous inhabitants of Egypt.. I've read arguments similar to that before and the sources back that up when worded correctly.
Taharqa
05:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^It's not a more extreme view, it's a totally different one. He claims to have found that their level of skin pigmentation was to an extent that could not be found "among the white races". http://www.africawithin.com/diop/origin_egyptians.htm
He makes no such claim for "different shades of color", neither does Brace. Again, I'm in favor of brown skin tones, but to what degree of variation, I don't know. I know it varied like every population. I'm just pointing out that these sources don't support any skin color notions of that sort. Taharqa 05:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^I see, but I don't see how pushing the opinion that the ancients could of been "different shades of brown" will improve the article. That's a broad statement and can be applied any where in the world almost. Just doesn't seem important, but if you really need to put it in there I won't intervene again as long as it's worded in a neutral and truthful way that reflects upheld opinions of the qualified mainstream.
Taharqa
06:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
An Opposing View on Egyptian hair and racial identification: West Africa Magazine July 8, 2001 Egyptology: Hanging in the Hair by Anu M'bantu and Fari Supia
F0R YEARS, EGYPTOLOGY has been fighting a losing battle to hold onto an ancient Egypt that is Caucasian or, at worst, sun-tanned Caucasian.
At the 1974 UNESCO conference Egyptology was dealt a fatal blow. Two African scholars wiped the floor with 18 world-renowned Egyptologists. They proved in 11 different categories of evidence that the ancient Egyptians were Africans (Black). Following that beating, Egyptology has been on its knees praying to be saved by science. Their last glimmer of hope has been the hair on Egyptian mummies.
The mummies on display in the world's museums exhibit Caucasoid-looking hair, some of it brown and blonde. These mummies include Pharaoh Seqenenre Tao of the 17th dynasty and the 19th dynasty's Rameses II. As one scholar put it: "The most common hair colour, then as now, was a very dark brown, almost black colour although natural auburn and even rather surprisingly blonde hair are also to be found."
Many Black scholars try skillfully to avoid the hair problem. This is a mistake!
In 1914, a white doctor in Detroit initiated divorce proceeding against his wife whom he suspected of being a "closet Negro". At the trial, the Columbia University anthropologist, Professor Franz Boas (1858-1942), was called upon as a race expert. Boas declared: "If this woman has any of the characteristics of the Negro race it would be easy to find them . . . one characteristic that is regarded as reliable is the hair. You can tell by microscopic examination of a cross-section of hair to what race that person belongs."
With this revelation, trichology (the scientific analysis of hair) reached the American public. But what are these differences?
The cross-section of a hair shaft is measured with an instrument called a trichometer. From this you can get measurements for the minimum and maximum diameter of a hair The minimum measurement is then divided by the maximum and then multiplied by a hundred. This produces an index. A survey of the scientific literature produces the following breakdown:
San, Southern African 55.00 Zulu, Southern African 55.00 Sub-Saharan Africa 60.00 Tasmanian (Black) 64.70 Australian (Black) 68.00 Western European 71.20 Asian Indian 73.00 Navajo American 77.00 Chinese 82.60
In the early 1970s, the Czech anthropologist Eugen Strouhal examined pre-dynastic Egyptian skulls at Cambridge University. He sent some samples of the hair to the Institute of Anthropology at Charles University, Prague, to be analyzed. The hair samples were described as varying in texture from "wavy" to "curly" and in colour from "light brown" to "black". Strouhal summarized the results of the analysis:
"The outline of the cross-sections of the hairs was flattened, with indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show the Negroid inference among the Badarians (pre-dynastic Egyptians)."
The term "Negroid influence" suggests intermixture, but as the table suggests this hair is more "Negroid" than the San and the Zulu samples, currently the most Negroid hair in existence!
In another study, hair samples from ten 18th-25th dynasty individuals produced an average index of 51! As far back as 1877, Dr. Pruner-Bey analyzed six ancient Egyptian hair samples. Their average index of 64.4 was similar to the Tasmanians who lie at the periphery of the African-haired populations.
A team of Italian anthropologists published their research in the Journal of Human Evolution in 1972 and 1980. They measured two samples consisting of 26 individuals from pre-dynastic, 12th dynasty and 18th dynasty mummies. They produced a mean index of 66.50
18th Dynasty Egypt The overall average of all four sets of ancient Egyptian hair samples was 60.02. Sounds familiar . . ., just check the table!
Since microscopic analysis shows ancient Egyptian hair to be completely African, why does the hair look Caucasoid? Research has given us the answers.
Hair is made of keratin protein. Keratin is composed of amino acid chains called polypeptides. In a hair, two such chains are called cross-chain polypeptides. These are held together by disulphide bonds. The bulk of the hair, the source of its strength and curl, is called the cortex. The hair shafts are made of a protective outer layer called the cuticle.
We are informed by Afro Hair - A Salon Book, that chemicals for bleaching, penning and straightening hair must reach the cortex to be effective. For hair to be permed or straightened the disulphide bonds in the cortex must be broken. The anthropologist Daniel Hardy writing in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, tells us that keratin is stable owing to disulphide bonds. However, when hair is exposed to harsh conditions it can lead to oxidation of protein molecules in the cortex, which leads to the alteration of hair texture, such as straightening.
Two British anthropologists, Brothwell and Spearman, have found evidence of cortex keratin oxidation in ancient Egyptian hair. They held that the mummification process was responsible, because of the strong alkaline substance used. This resulted in the yellowing and browning of hair as well as the straightening effect.
This means that visual appearance of the hair on mummies cannot disguise their racial affinities. The presence of blonde and brown hair on ancient Egyptian mummies has nothing to do with their racial identity and everything to do with mummification and the passage of time. As the studies have shown, when you put the evidence under a microscope the truth comes out. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/hair2.html Louisvillian 05:17, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Urthogie 18:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow! The hair evidence is crucial! I wonder why people never focused on that? The Senu mummy conclusion is misleading in that it may be marred by a confusion of "race" and makes judgments on "Racial categories" and not geographic origin. Mixed with "Negroid and Mediterranean"?. Such categories are disputed. Similar skull/facial types don't always indicate racial relationships, especially to the arbitrary degree of breaking race down into fractions and categories like that. His facial proportions are well with in the variation of Africa and individual variation as well. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/Northeast_african_analysis.pdf Everyone isn't pure blooded anything though, I'm quite sure, but stuff like this is misleading, like the King Tut controversy. That Frank Yurco article is really old and just obfuscates the issue as he changed his views some what since then in regards to dealing with "racial" issues of the Nile Valley. He stopped using words like "Black", "White", and "mediterranean"(what ever that is) a while ago. The hair evidence doesn't indicate exactly what group of people they were "racially" (in those terms), but it indicates origins and it rules out other groups and by process of elimination fits them closer to other Africans indefinitely, in my opinion. Strong.. Taharqa 22:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
^Urgothie, you're wrong. People in the Sahara were already domesticating cattle, and other aspects of culture such as jewlery, pottery, etc can only be linked with Nile Valley and Saharan culture. There is absolutely no evidence for Mesopotamian influence. There's simply a lot of research that you need to catch up on, you seem stuck in the distant past.
The Sahara and the Sudan in Nile Valley peopling
Saharan-Sudanic inheritance of Nile Valley settlers. Data on the peopling of the Nile Valley do not appear to support earlier historical notions of an initial wave of Caucasoid invaders entering from the North to introduce civilization. Mainstream data shows gradual movement and peopling from the south- the Saharan zone and associated parts of the Sudanic region, fusing with indigenous Nilotic elements already in place, leading into the development of the well-known Egyptian kingdoms, not sweeping insertions from the Mediterranean, Mesopotamia or elsewhere.(AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 83:35-48 (1990)
[9] See Wiki article
Predynastic Egypt for the now discounted
Dynastic Race Theory. As to the Saharan movement even Afrocentric critics such as Mary Lefkowitz note:
Sudanic threads. Elements from both the Sahara and associated Sudanic regions appear to have been involved in the peopling Egypt according to a number of mainstream references. The Khartoum Culture and other zones of the Sudan for example show significant influence as indicated by pottery, jewelry, tools and implements, raw materials such as certain types of stone, and artistic designs. These elements (claimed as negroid in older histories), were clearly in contact with the predynastic cultures of Egypt. [11]
Saharan threads. The once fertile Sahara stretches in a belt from the Mediterranean to the Red Sea. As noted above, fluctuating climate cycles acted as a "pump", pushing people from the south up towards the wetter, more fertile Nile Valley, or down, to zones of similar likeness. As regards the people, historic populations also appear to follow the same pattern of complexity noted above. Generally the pattern is in a "southern" direction, with early peoples being joined by other populations mixes like Berbers, who appear to have been clearly established by 1000, B.C. [12]
Limited outside inspiration needed by Nile Valley settlers. Whatever the exact mix of peoples on the ground, the work of mainstream research therefore demonstrates that from early pre-dynastic times, Egypt was essentially settled by indigenous elements closely associated with groups from the Saharan and Sudanic region moving up into the Nile Valley, and excluded any significant influx from Mediterraneans, Mesopotamians or others not indigenous to the area. Mass migration theories sometimes rely on the introduction of cattle herding, but archealogical data (Wendorf 2001, Wettstrom 1999) suggests that the peoples of the Sahara had already independently domesticated cattle in the early Holocene eastern Sahara, earlier than in the Near East, followed by the gradual adoption of grain cultivation. [13]As another mainstream scholar puts it:
Peopling from the Levant and Maghreb sources The archealogy of the Predynastic and early Dynastic periods show relatively little large-scale movement of peoples from the Levant- the zone bordering the Eastern Mediterranean that includes parts of Turkey, and Syria, Lebanon, and Israel [15]- and the Maghreb which includes modern day countries in North Africa like Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya. However this does not mean that there was not small-scale migration. The fertility of the Nile Valley and comparatively easy food collection opportunities would facilitate such movement. There is clear evidence of trade contacts and material culture, reflected in the increasing weight of trade material such as lapis lazulli, copper and silver. Taharqa 23:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
^Indeed, it's added. Egypt seems to have just been another unique African civilization, this, above anything else is undeniable. They shared racial and cultural affinities with those closest to them. Not more so with any distant groups such as Mesopotamians and Europeans.
This is also how the Egyptians referred to Nubia. Nubia: "Khentu Hon Nefer" (page 554a) = founders of the perfect order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b. Nubia: "To(Ta) Khent" (page 1051b/page 554b) = land of the beginning. Nubia: "Eau" (page 952b/page17b) = the old country Taharqa 01:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
^Why split it up? It's the same culture.. Taharqa 17:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
It's difficult to understand your way of thinking and leads into question how much you really know about ancient egypt. Egypt was an indigenous civilization with its own unique culture. The predynastic and dynastic is only separated by a unification from the south, creating the first dynasty, but there was no culture change. Egypt is thousands of years older than crete and culture was not dependent upon mesopotamia. You might as well split the culture section up into Old, Middle, and New kindom also if that's the case, the petty stuff you're trying to pull is senseless. Frankly, you don't even know what you're talking about and this has been proven so many times.
1. You're the last advocate of the dynastic race theory and have been so oblivious these past years, you didn't even know that the theory has long since been discredited
2. You make numerous mistakes in your logic in reference to what you understand about Egypt.
3. You tend to lean towards your already preconceived notions of what you believe and ignore copious amounts of data and rely on outdated and discredited sources to satisfy your position and save face.
This is utterly senseless as everyone knows about dynastic culture, but how will putting emphasis on dynastic culture allude to any racial affinities when Egypt was clearly unique? The state that had the most in common with them was Nubia, "Founders of the perfect order", as the Egyptians referred to them. What you're doing is senseless and just annoying now, you have no idea what you're arguing. If that's the case, what need is there for a culture section, since you're adding all of these new sections but adding no relevant information yourself? Taharqa 01:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The only feature we see is his nose and his lips which are thick black african lips. We can see his nose from the side so we can't tell if it is causian or not but his head shape is definitley negorid
King Tut was a tropical African variant most likely, as most of the 18th dynasty was. The 18th Dynasty in itself was founded by "Nubian" blood. Even though "Nubian" and "Upper Egyptian" were not mutually exclusive anyways. Taharqa 17:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe the Ancient Egyptians who left depictions of tut behind, clearly displaying his ethic affiliations, and they were not "Medit" or "Caucasoid", tut was an Upper Egyptian/Nubian. Besides, the people who reconstructed his face were not scientists, they were artists! That's why each face looked different, duh! smh.. The computer rendition done by the discovery channel in 2002 was the most authentic in my opinion, no one says believe me, and definitely no one says believe you, just believe the most likely possibility given the evidence, history, and logic. Besides Urgothie, you don't even seem qualified enough to even edit this page given what you know about Egypt and your inability to cite sources correctly. You seem a bit amature. It's obvious that you haven't even reached an intermediacy level concerning this topic, you're still a beginner so I see that I have to view you as such. Not to limit your learning potential but given your developed knowledge, you just aren't up to par imo to converse with me on this topic. You can litter the page all that you want with your trash, but it only takes a logical person and informed individual to see how poorly sourced and inaccurate it would be if the task was simply left up to you. Whole gross distortions of history and everything. Please, the irony! Taharqa 01:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't know why people don't mention the first computerized results of Tut's facial reconstruction. http://dsc.discovery.com/anthology/unsolvedhistory/kingtut/face/facespin.html
^This seems the most accurate since it was done by way of computer, with computers you get the same results every time, with hand crafting, you get different results from different artists. Zahi Hawass seemed like he had something to prove ordering another reconstruction when one was already done, I think that later reconstructions were objects of wishful thinking and art on the part of the people involved. Although this is just my opinion and will not be added in the article, I'm just saying. Taharqa 21:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Language as a way to classify "race"
Complications have also cropped up in the use of linguistics as a basis for racial categorization. The demise of the famous "Hamitic Hypothesis", which purported to show that certain African languages around the Nile area could be associated with "Caucasoid" peoples is a typical case. Such schemes fell apart when it was demonstrated that Negro tribes far distant also spoke similar languages, tongues that were supposedly a reserved marker of Caucasoid presence or influence. [16] For work on African languages, see Wiki article Languages of Africa and Joseph Greenberg. Older linguistic classifications are also linked to the notion of a "Hamitic race", a vague grouping thought to exclude Negroes, but accommodating a large variety of dark skinned North and East Africans into a broad-based Caucasoid grouping. This Caucasoid "Hamitic race" is sometimes credited with the introduction of more advanced culture, such as certain plant cultivation and particularly the domestication of cattle. This scheme has also been discredited by the work of post WWII archaeologists such as A. Arkell, who demonstrated that predynastic and Sudanic Negroid elements already possessed cattle and plant domestication, thousands of years before the supposed influx of Caucasoid or Hamitic settlers into the Nile Valley, Nubia and adjoining areas. [17] Modern scholarship has moved away from earlier notions of a "Hamitic" race speaking Hamito-Semitic languages, and places the Egyptian language in a more localized context, centered around its general Saharan and Nilotic roots.(F. Yurco "An Egyptological Review", 1996) [18] Linguistic analysis (Diakanoff 1998) places the origin of the Afro-Asiatic languages in northeast Africa, with older strands south of Egypt, and newer elements straddling the Nile Delta and Sinai. [19]
Beja
Many scholars believe the Beja to be derived from early Egyptians because of their language and physical features. They are the indigenous people of this area, and we first know of them in historical references in the Sixth Dynasty of ancient Egypt.
The Beja people are an ancient Cushitic people closely kin to the ancient Egyptians,1978 http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/bejagirl.html who have lived in the desert between the Nile river and the Red Sea since at least 25000 BC. See Seligman, C. G. Races of Africa. Oxford: Oxford University Press, Taharqa 20:14, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Under Egyptian View
Land Of Punt
Pounit; pwonit : "country of the first existence". The Ancient Egyptians considered the Land of Punt as being their ancestral homeland. Punt, an ancient land south of Egypt was accessible by way of the Red Sea. Its exact location has not been identified, but it is thought to have been somewhere in eastern Africa and probably included the Somali coast. Temple reliefs at Deir el Bahari in W Thebes depict an Egyptian expedition to Punt in the reign of Hatshepsut. [20]
Egypt had cultural contact with Crete as early as the Old Kingdom [8] [9] Secondly, the "Beja" section you added is original research. Who has been attributed as saying it is relevant to the "race" of ancient egyptians? Also, the language stuff you added shouldn't be under "research", as it is more background than anything else... it's an old racist theory, a scientific fossil being debunked. It's not modern "research." Lastly, you said that the 2002 national geographic study found "nubian" appearence. Where in the link does it say the word nubian. I've removed your source until it's not original research of you calling it "nubian". Thank you, -- Urthogie 18:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Just because someone has dark skin it doesn't mean they are "black". The Egyptians were Egyptians. 'Egyptian' isn't a race. It is like people who have no connection to these people are trying to steal their history. You're delusional File:Http://www.jimhayes.com/Egypt-2004/MedHabuMan.jpg File:Http://ime.imb.org/resources/download/images/DSC 7267LG.jpg Oh my god they have dark skin they must be blacks!!!!!!!! Roman depiction of Egyptians of the time: File:Http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/09/Fayum-01.jpg/150px-Fayum-01.jpg Another thing is that the females are often depicted as having very fair skin, the same color that the Egyptians use for Libyans (another non-black North African people)and Semitic people. Semitic isn't racial, there's black semites in East Africa, and white 'caucasians' aren't native to north Africa, north Africans came from south of the sahara like every one else, white people developed their white skin in northern climates, any white man in Africa is an Invader to put it frankly. I'm not saying that the Egyptians were blond hair (although there are some paintings of that)No there isn't, Haha! Those were assimilated Lybian foreigners, if you even saw such a thing past the 12th dynasty., blue eyed Nordic Aryans. (Nazi ideologies), blue eyes is a rare recessive trait found mostly among northern peoples of Europe, not Africa or even most of the Mid eat for that matter. But come on, their skin color is basically depicted in the same manner as those of the modern population of Egypt which is basically Caucasian, Upper Egyptians, who are the true descendants are in no way "Caucasian" Arabs/invaders, they're closer to the "black" Sudanese than they are to "White" Europeans, and even they have Eurasian admixture. genetically and phenotypically, look it up. and identifies themselves as "Arab". Bottom line, blacks, you are not Egyptians, thats not your history, sorry guys. Just remember: Please, but we're African, just like the southern and ancients Egyptians were, and white people are not. Not all dark skinned people are "black". And not all blacks are "Negroids" Not all dark skinned depictions of people mean that the entire race was black. outside of Africa maybe I swear if there was a picture of a dark skinned person on an ancient Chinese scroll,there would probably be 50 essays about how the Chinese were black and that the evil Asian peoples are trying to hide it. I'm personally not that foolish, but I'm sure some blacks with low self esteem are. Not all Africans are "black", basically North Africa. Whites, Arabs, and Asians aren't trying to conceal the greatness of the black race by destroying evidence. I agree, but the point is getting to the truth and disregarding all of these logical fallacies you present so to conclude, Egyptians were Egyptians. And they were also Africans And you probably have no connection to them. That's a very loose statement, who are you to say that? Especially being European, this is between the 'Africans'. So stop fighting so hard to try to attach yourself to their ancient history. Speak for yourself Taharqa 03:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I know this sounds like its some White power rant, but I do not identify myself as "white" although I am mostly Caucasian. I would go off on white people, but I don't see much of that here, and besides to me Arabs/Middle Easterns are basically the same as whites. The only difference is religion.[LoLGuys]
Hahahahahahaha, again what did I say, do you think you are any different than Neo-Nazis who believed that all civilization was derived from a white Aryan race? Reading your post you sound like a huge raciest. One, no we don't know that all the worlds races were black. There are no proven theories on that, I highly doubt the "yellow" i.e. East Asians, were born in 5,000 b.c. by some archaic mix of black (African) peoples and white (I assume you mean Europeans). Which out the regional continuity theory, which shows(doesn't prove necessarily) that East Asian features go back to homoerectus, the first homo species in Asia. Not to mention that China has one of the oldest civilizations in the world, and civilizations, kingdoms and empires don't just sorta happen. Secoundly their word for black could be relative, "black" could have reffered to eye color, hair, or anything else. Probably not skin color, as almost no depiction of an Egyptian, by Egyptians show them with black skin. However their neighborers to the South, the Nubians are all ways shown with very prominent negroid(i.e. black, I'm not using a bad word here)features. While they depict themselves as having dark skinned males and light skinned females. Nubian women don't get very light. However a Caucasian person would be capable of not tanning. http://www.white-history.com/hwr8_files/elderlady01.jpg look at that "woolly" hair. Agian, what I am saying is that the Egyptians looked and still look like this: [10] [11] [12] And not like this: [13] Or this: [14][LoLGuys]
In a lexicographic analysis, philosophy professor Lansana Keita noted that the word "black", "negro", and "African race" are all defined in terms of one another and can be regarded as logically equivalent[1] Although the earliest known references of the English word "black" with reference to African descent were in the year 1400[2], the term (especially when used in a racial context) was popularized during the transatlantic slave trade and the Age of Enlightenment, which gave rise to racial classification[3] The first of these came from French doctor Francois Bernier who divided up humanity based on facial appearance and body type. He proposed four categories: Europeans, Far Easterners, Lapps, and blacks; who he described as having woolly hair, thick lips, and very white teeth.[4] The concept of black explicitly as a proxy for African descent can be traced to the same era when Swedish botanist, physician and zoologist Carolus Linnaeus divided humankind into four main races, loosely based on geographic distribution: europeaus (white race), asiaticus (yellow race), americanus (red race) and afer or african (black race).[5] According to Linnaeus' pseudo-scientific model, the black male could be defined by his skin tone, face structure, and curly hair. He assigned various fanciful attributes to each of his four categories, clearly favoring the "race" europeaus.[6][7]
Agian, not all Africans are black. The majority of North African peoples are what we call "Arabic" which is a culture group more than a race. However they are Caucasian. And that big desert called the Sahara basically historically separated the two. You are trying to connect yourself to the Egyptians. Which is what Afrocentrism trys to do. It is an effort by black Americans, who are of East African slave decent to connect themselves to Egypt, Babylon and other races history. You are not Egyptian, and even if they were black, you aren't related to them. Get of it. However the fact is, all these theories of this massive White-Arab plot to erase the black Egyptian history is purely raciest. Again, put two and two together, modern Egyptians look like the depictions of Ancient Egyptians. The Ancient Egyptian's depictions of Nubians look like modern black people. Now if you consider the modern population of Egypt to be blacks, then whatever. But remember they aren't you, you aren't related to them.[LoLGuys]
Lo LGuys, it seems to me that you must learn more about world history in general and African history in particular. Arabs arrived in Africa in the 7th century ACE. Globally speaking, they have not yet accomplished 2 millennium in Africa. In the past, I said that the White people entered Africa in the third millennium BCE. Sorry for the mistake. I meant in the second millennium BCE. The Egyptian state was long in place. Pyramids were already standing. What did Whites bring to Egypt? Desolations. Their times are known as intermediaries periods. Parenthesis! You wrote: “Bottom line, blacks, you are not Egyptians”. You can say this out of your ignorance of the Egyptian history. When Jean François Champollion arrived in Egypt, he noticed that in the paintings, Blacks came first, Whites “bottom line”, they are not Egyptians. Really the contrary of what you are writing. You need to learn more about Black history. To Urthogie. You said that kmt was not used for other Africans. Today, when one says the American people, we immediately think about the inhabitants of the Unites States. When one says anti Semitic, we immediately think about anti Jewish. But America is more than the USA, Semitic more than the Jews. This phenomenon is called in anthropology ethnocentrism. Powerful nations do put themselves at the center. Egypt did make exception. Diodorus of Sicily wrote in its Osiris and Isis that the Egyptian considered themselves to be at the hearth of the southern world. When they call themselves the Blacks, they considered themselves to be the best among the Blacks. They monopolized also the use of the word rmT which means human being. They considered themselves also as the best of the humankind. So Km means black. Applied to the country, it is written kmt and means the Black Country. Land is masculine in Egyptian. To say black land, one has to write ta km. But niwt or nwt, the city, is feminine. It is the determinative of the country. When used for kmt, the symbol of land does not designate the land, but the country (Cf. Pierre du Bourguet, Grammaire égyptienne, p. 14). When used with the determinative of people, it means Black people. With cattle, black cattle… Take first the words in themselves before making speculations, interpretations. I am sorry but Egypt is in Africa and not in Asia. Go to any good dictionary. You are not an African. I am sorry but the Egyptian culture is only linked to other African cultures. Those of Asia and Europe who have some Egyptian customs did borrowings. (Cf. Herodotus, The Persian Wars; Siegbert Hummel, Tracce d’Egitto in Euroasia, Torino: Ananke, 1997). It was believed that the Egyptian language is Semitic. Gardiner destroyed that hope: “until its relationship to the African languages is more closely defined, Egyptian must certainly be classified as standing outside the Semitic group” (Egyptian Grammar, 2001, p. 3). The first Semitic language known is Akkadian. It is dated around 2400 BCE. Egyptian, written already around 3100 BCE is older! That is why at the Cairo conference, Sauneron said that “Semitic words found in Egyptian don’t exceed one hundred. They came through borrowings. The Semitic family does not explain the Egyptian language”. Do the Egyptian look like the Libyans and the Semites? No, Erman and Ranke answer. How do they look like ? Like the Nubians : “(…) l’Egyptien des temps historiques se révèle dans les représentations figurées de ses tombeaux, à toutes les époques, tant dans son aspect extérieur que dans la manière de se vêtir, tout à fait différent de ses voisins, qu’il s’agisse des Libyens et des Cananéens, ou des nomades du désert oriental (…). Il semble que les peuples qui se rapprochent le plus des Egyptiens soient leurs voisins du sud, les Nubiens”(La civilisation égyptienne, Paris Payot, 1994, p. 46). Now, let me give you some correspondences between the Egyptian language (cf Raymond Faulkner, A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian) and the kikongo language ([this is my language]. Cf Karl Laman, Dictionnaire kikongo-français) about the word km. km: black / lakama: be dark, black; -akana: verbal suffixe Giving the meaning being dark, black; kongula: be dark. Kmt: the Black Land / Kongo: name of villages of Congo. Kmt: Egyptians / bakongo: the Congolese people. kmt: a jar / kamba: cup. km: total up to, amount to, complete / koma: put on, add, be in quantity. kmyt: conclusion of book / kamama: be almost finished, be almost full. kmy(t): herd of cattle / kama: big antelope; kambakasa, kambakazi: multitude. I am expecting you to do the same little exercise (km in Egyptian and in your mother language). Sorry for some harsh words in the past. I am not claiming that somebody who is not African cannot study African Civilizations. I am just inviting you to be less arrogant in subjects not linked directly to your culture. You may ignore some of their subtleties. Peace to both of you and Lo LGuys! Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 195.110.156.38 14:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie, you are free to reject the ethnocentric theory. It does not function as you believe according to logic or objectivity. It functions according to the combination of power and the human tendency to place one’s tribe at the centre of the world. Did you not understand the examples I gave alluding to America and anti Semitism? About kmt in reference to the people. If you know a bit of the Egyptian language, try to translate it literally otherwise than the Blacks without falling into falsifications or manipulations! Egyptians were just black people. « (…) l’Egyptien des temps historiques se révèle dans les représentations figurées de ses tombeaux, à toutes les époques, tant dans son aspect extérieur que dans la manière de se vêtir, tout à fait différent de ses voisins, qu’il s’agisse des Libyens et des Cananéens, ou des nomades du désert oriental (…). Il semble que les peuples qui se rapprochent le plus des Egyptiens soient leurs voisins du sud, les Nubiens”(Adolf Erman, Hermann Ranke, La civilisation égyptienne, Paris Payot, 1994, p. 46) ». « Le noir est, bien souvent, la couleur des dieux. Osiris était noir. Isis fut regardée comme une déesse ‘noire et rouge’, une nubienne, et figurait voilée de noir. Selon Porphyre, Knef, le dieu créateur des Egyptiens étaient noir. Un dieu noir figure dans le tombeau de Sethi I. » (S. Mayassis, Mystères et initiations de l’Egypte ancienne. Compléments à la religion égyptienne, Milano : Archè, 1988, pp. 394-395). Urthogie, if the Egyptians were not from Nubia, why according to you is the first nome of Upper Egypt in Nubia ? « Tз-Sti, Nubia, properly Ist nome of Upper Egypt ; Styw Nubians, sty red (?) Nubian (?) pigment » (Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar, 2001, p. 593). You will notice that the first nome of Lower Egypt is equally in the south. The south, Nubia, is the root of the Egyptian Civilization. Than the political emancipated Egyptians thought of themselves being at the best of the humankind (rmT) and of the black world (kmt). Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 195.110.156.38 17:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Pseudo-scientific theories concerning race, civilization, and "progress" had become quite widespread in Europe in the second half of the 19th century, especially as Prussian nationalistic historian Heinrich von Treitschke did much to promote this form of racism. In Treitschke's writings Semitic was synonymous with Jewish
German political agitator Wilhelm Marr coined the related German word Antisemitismus in his book "The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism" in 1879. Marr used the phrase to mean hatred of Jews or Judenhass, and he used the new word antisemitism to make hatred of the Jews seem rational and sanctioned by scientific knowledge. Marr's book became very popular, and in the same year he founded the "League of Antisemites" ("Antisemiten-Liga"), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany posed by the Jews, and advocating their forced removal from the country.
So far as can be ascertained, the word was first widely printed in 1881, when Marr published "Zwanglose Antisemitische Hefte," and Wilhelm Scherer used the term "Antisemiten" in the January issue of "Neue Freie Presse". The related word semitism was coined around 1885. See also the coinage of the term "Palestinian" by Germans to refer to ethnic Jews, as distinct from the religion of Judaism. (All from antisemitism)
Had you read my writing, I said "what we now call Arab" since Arabic isn't a race, rather a culture group. I am of the opinion that the Egyptians are a homogeneous race. Of course with a bit of constant mixing from the south, i.e. negroid/black people. But also from the East, West, and North, i.e. Whites, and other semitic peoples. But the main problem with Black historians is they are too bias, usually they will only write about history in relation to themselves, or the black race as a generic whole. If you want to study Ancient Egypt, or Ancient Egyptian race, you need to first remove yourself. Look at it as I do, a neutral observer. I am not trying to link my race, background or heritage to the ancient Egyptians. And until you can do the same with all of history, you can not be taken seriously. It's notions like "all mankind was black, therefore all civilization was derived from us" that really not only sounds ignorant but all pretty offensive.
And uh, if Egyptians looked like Nubians, why is it so obvious in Egyptian art when they draw or depict Nubians, they have obvious black African features and skin tone. But when they draw themselves, they look like the modern population?
Also, yes when I mentioned the birth of Afrocentrism I meant people of West African decent. And I apologize for my lack of skill with HTML [LoLGuys]
I never understood why Eurocentrics always pull the same lame card, implying that African Americans had nothing to do with Egypt no matter what race they were. But it isn't an issue when all anglo people in America relate to Greece and Rome, when they're from Western Europe, not east. Ain't no greeks with blond hair and blue eyes, so can we effectively say that they were a different race? Greeks called northern Europeans white, in comparison to themselves, and Egyptians black. They say the "complexion of courage is between the two" - Aristotle... So what's up with the hypocracy? White people teach us about Greece every day in school, we don't give a fuck, what does Greece have to do with white people if that's the case? Why can't black kids learn about and glorify Egypt? I mean it is in Africa and Greece is in Europe.
And uh, if Egyptians looked like Nubians, why is it so obvious in Egyptian art when they draw or depict Nubians
That's an awfully stupid question, why did the Egyptians look so different from white people and semites? and Why do Somalis look so different than Congolese, or the Beja(black) of North Africa look so different than people of Chad? Because Africa has the longest history of variation and there is no single 'black' type in which some how you feel the Nubian represents. Also there is no such thing as "black" features, read a book or go to Africa some day. Modern Man adapted and spread through Africa for 90,000 years before he ever left. The ones that left were only one population and all of the other races come from this one population and this is why everyone else is so homogeneous while Africa is so diversified. All features on earth come from Africa and are still there, which is evidence that we all come from there. READ! Get rid of the ignorant stereotypes and study critically Taharqa 22:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie. You are very good indeed when it comes to your Society. Congratulations! Still the Jews have monopolised the word anti Semitic, putting themselves at the centre of the Semitic world. Am I wrong? The idea that the Jews are the elected people is another example of ethnocentrism. Apparently, you agree with me on the example of America. If it is the case, you got my point about the Egyptians calling themselves rmT (the humankind) or Kmt (the Blacks). About Tз Sti, you are totally wrong. Read well Gardiner. He wrote in good English: « Tз-Sti, Nubia, properly Ist nome of Upper Egypt ; Styw Nubians, sty red (?) Nubian (?) pigment » (Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar, 2001, p. 593). Peace! Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 195.110.156.38 20:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
^Cop out, so now we're debating the race of the Nubians? Taharqa 22:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/egypt/abusimbel/ramses/nubiandet2.jpg hmmm wonder if that is an Egyptian or a Nubian? http://www.dignubia.org/maps/timeline/img/b1540a-nubian-tribute-huy.jpg I can't find any better pictures online at the moment, but a “master” of African history such as yourself should have access to pictures of Nubians made by Egyptians. You will the different details given to people of black decent. On the facial features and shapes, as well as the color of skin.
^^Why are some of those Nubians painted red in color like the Egyptians, I thought all black people were jet-black?! (Sarcasm)..
Taharqa
22:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Or maybe you pulled that out of your ass to fit your view even though there is no evidence what so ever to support that elementary claim. Anthropologically or in literature Taharqa 22:47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
What's straight forward is that those depictions in the tomb of huey seem to differ with your baseless claims. Like I said, all Nubians weren't jet-black and all Egyptians weren't reddish-brown. Ethnically, Egyptian and Nubian weren't mutually exclusive, these were simply nationalities and in the beginning they were the same nation. The tomb of Ramses III also depicts Nubians similar to them, but nationalities make distinctions among others in the name of chauvinism. If you believe all Egyptians and Nubians looked the same then you're just nieve. If you want to remain ignorant, that's your fault, not mine..
Taharqa
02:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Quote:
They regarded Africans gods as their saviors" What? hahahaha. What a total load. My understanding is the Egyptians saw themselves as perfect, and had a disdain for their neighborers. Especially the Nubians. Since Kush is the Egyptian word for "vile".
Hahahahahaha!! You have to be the most ignorant human on wikipedia for this comment. Nubia comes from the word "Nubi" which means gold, and Kush was a Kingdom in the upper Nile and had nothing to do with Nubia (the state), Kush comes from the Hebrew word, "Cush", land of the Ethiopians, what the hell are you talking about? They indeed called the Kushites Wretched and Vile, but this was during tribal conflict, they also referred to them as "Khentu Hon Nefer" (page 554a) = founders of the perfect order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b. Nubia: "To(Ta) Khent" (page 1051b/page 554b) = land of the beginning. Nubia: "Eau" (page 952b/page17b) = the old country
They referred to the lighter skinned Asiatics as pillagers and thieves. Labeled them literally "ignoble asiatics" and associated them with the red color of Seth, which stood for Evil. Osiris stood for black, which meant good. Osiris, or I should say Ausar's(the ancestor of the Egyptian race) very title was 'Kem Wer', or literally (with no corruption of the translation in any way)"The Great Black (One)", interpret that as you may but it should be no coincidence that his skin is usually depicted as jet-black. Now get over yourself and learn more about Egyptian customs and culture. You make it seem as if the burden of proof is on the premise that they were not different than the Nubians in the beginning, yet it is the opposite since all evidence points to that conclusion. Now get over your self. Taharqa 05:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Nubian Monarchy Called Oldest*
By Boyce Renseberger
(From page 1)
Evidence of the oldest recognizable monarchy in human history, preceding the rise of the earliest Egyptian kings by several generations, has been discovered in artifacts from ancient Nubia in Africa.
Until now it had been assumed that at that time the ancient Nubian culture, which existed in what is now northern Sudan and southern Egypt, had not advanced beyond a collection of scattered tribal clans and chiefdoms.
The existence of rule by kings indicates a more advanced form of political organization in which many chiefdoms are united under a more powerful and wealthier ruler.
The discovery is expected to stimulate a new appraisal of the origins of civilization in Africa, raising the question of to what extent later Egyptian culture may have derived its advanced politicat structure from the Nubians. The various symbols of Nubian royalty that have been found are the same as those associated, in later times, with Egyptian kings.
The new findings suggest that the ancient Nubians may have reached this stage of political development as long ago as 3300 B.C., several generations before the earliest documented Egyptian king.
The discovery is based on study of artifacts from ancient tombs excavated 15 years ago in an international effort
(From page A16)
Clues to Oldest Monarchy Found in Nubia
to rescue archeological deposits before the rising waters of the Aswan Dam covered them.
The artifacts, including hundreds of fragments of pottery, jewelry, stone vessels, and ceremonial objects such as incense burners, were initially recovered from the Qustul cemetery by Keith C. Seele, a professor at the University of Chicago. The cemetery, which contained 33 tombs that were heavily plundered in ancient times, was on the Nile near the modern boundary between Egypt and the Sudan.
The significance of the artifacts, which had been in storage at the university's oriental Institute, was not fully appreciated until last year, when Bruce Williams, a research associate, began to study them.
"Keith Seele had suspected the tombs were special, perhaps even royal," Dr. Williams said in an interview. "It was obvious from the quantity and quality of the painted pottery and the jewelry that we were dealing with wealthy people. But it was the picture on a stone incense burner that indicated we really had the tomb of a king."
On the incense burner, which was broken and had to be pieced together, was a depiction of a palace façade, a crowned king sitting on a throne in a boat, a royal standard before the king and, hovering above the king, the falcon god Horus. Most of the images are ones commonly associated with kingship in later Egyptian traditions.
The portion of the incense burner bearing the body of the king is missing but, Dr. Williams said, scholars are agreed that the presence of the crown—in a form well known from dynastic Egypt—and the god Horus are irrefutable evidence that the complete image was that of a king.
Clue on Incense Burner
The majestic figure on the incense burner, Dr. Williams said, is the earliest known representation of a king in the Nile Valley. His name is unknown, but he is believed to have lived approximately three generations before the time of Scorpion, the earliest-known Egyptian ruler. Scorpion was one of three kings said to have ruled Egypt before the start of what is called the first dynasty around 3050 B.C.
Dr. Williams said the dating is based on correlations of artistic styles in the Nubian pottery with similar styles in predynastic Egyptian pottery, which is relatively well dated.
He said some of the Nubian artifacts bore disconnected symbols resembling those of Egyptian hieroglyphics that were not readable.
"They were on their way to literacy," Dr. Williams said, "probably quite close to Egypt in this respect."
He said it was not known what the ancient Nubian civilization was called at the time but that he suspected it was Ta-Seti, a name known from Egyptian writings that means "Land of the Bow," referring to the weapon which, apparently, was deemed characteristic of peoples in that part of Africa.
Dr. Williams said there were accounts in later Egyptian writings of the Egyptians attacking Ta-Seti some time around 3000 B.C. This is just about the time, according to the archeological record, when a major cultural transformation began in that part of Nubia. Little is known of what was happening in this region between 3000 B.C. and 2300 B.C. when inhabitants were unquestionably governed by separate chiefdoms.
Their descendents, he suggested, may have developed the Sudanese Kingdom of Kush, based in Kurma, Egyptians for sovereignty and, in fact, prevailed over them for a while.
A detailed monograph on the discoveries is in preparation, but there is no deadline and publication is expected to be a few years away.
http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/NUB/NUBX/NUBX_brochure.html
Most surprising, evidence that early pharaohs ruled in A-Group Nubia was discovered by the Oriental Institute at Qustul, almost at the modern Sudanese border. A cemetery of large tombs contained evidence of wealth and representations of the rulers and their victories. Other representations and monuments could then be identified, and in the process, a lost kingdom, called Ta-Seti or Land of the Bow, was discovered. In fact, the cemetery at Qustul leads directly to the first great royal monuments of Egypt in a progression. Qustul in Nubia could well have been the seat of Egypt's founding dynasty. Figure 1: The decoration of the Qustul Incense Burner, as restored. A sacrificial procession contains the earliest definite image of a pharaoh with his crown and falcon-label. Oriental Institute Nubian Expedition http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/NUB/NUBX/NUBX_brochure.html
Any logical person can infer that Egypt was a colony of Nubia who migrated into Egypt and founded the first dynasty. Also Ta-Seti, Upper Egypt, and Lower Egypt was all one kingdom back then and seeing as how Ta-Seti was a "Nubian" kingdom, which is confirmed, obviously the original Egyptians were Nubians.
Extremely interesting quote from Diodorus of Sicily (90 B.C. - 30 B.C.):
Diodorus Writes:
"The Ethiopians say that the Egyptians are one of their colonies which was brought into Egypt by Osiris"
In the same breath he writes:
"They add that from them, as from their authors and ancestors, the Egyptians get most of their laws. It is from them that the Egyptians have learned to honor kings as gods and bury them with such pomp; sculpture and writing were invented by the Ethiopians. The Ethiopians cite evidence that they are more ancient than the Egyptians, but it is useless to report that here"
Not to mention the fact that if the Egyptians and Ethiopians were not of the same race, Diodorus would have emphasized the impossibility of considering the former as a colony of the latter and the impossibility of viewing them as forebears of the Egyptians. It seems unfathomable that people over look this stuff, it gets frustrating after a while, as if you're in the 5% of people who actually know the truth. Well I take that back, many people know the truth and refrain from saying the Egyptians were anything but African, but people do sneakier shit, like trying to redefine the word "Black" a million times over, and I now refuse to be labeled by outsiders, because it's unscientific. You're either dark skinned or not, and you're either genetically similar or not. We know nothing of their genetics and the most we know of their complexion is that they were darker than the Greeks. All I care about is the fact that they were biologically African and more similar to other Africans, that way I don't get caught up in the Eurocentric trap. Taharqa 22:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Biologically African referes to those who adapted their features in any set of African micro-climates, and under evolutionary theory that would cause any indigenous inhabitants of Africa (who lacks foreign admixture) to be genetically distinct from Europeans and more similar to each other as African variant populations under the PN2 clade. "Sub-Saharan" is a misnomer and doesn't describe any racial group, it's a geo-political term and anthropologists will tell you that. And how is that the only basis for my argument when it coincides with the archeological evidence I've provided directly above it? I mean exactly! Haha, It's hard to accept reality for some people, but I'm patient. Taharqa 05:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Forget American society, I'm considered 'black' in American society, the point is that we're all African descendants who migrated directly from the Sahara and adapted all over every part of Africa. My only point is, and you being the logical person that you are should agree, according to evolutionary theory "Caucasians" developed their phenotypes in colder climates in the extremes of Northern Europe during the ice age, they're drastically different by nature (physically) than any native African and the presence of such people there is due to backward immigration or recent invasion. I don't think there's any evidence for mass backward migrations. Now if these people weren't Asian mongoloid invaders either than what were they? That's the problem with the word "Negroid" and "Black", these people are all simply Africans with recent common ancestry who developed different traits in different parts of Africa, but they are the same people in essence, which is my sound view. Taharqa 05:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Urthogie 05:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
You did not pick a weak argument, you dissected a strong argument and broke it down into a weak component, but as a whole the argument simply can not break down when put in context with the archeological evidence, you must admit that it makes sense.
Taharqa
05:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Obvious you're simply oblivious to what you did. It's not a 'weak' component because it wasn't meant to stand on its own, you took it out of context as I quoted that to coincide with the archeological evidence. Also, I'm not an advocate of 'race', I'm an advocate of shared ancestry and recent common origin. North Africans wouldn't have drifted as far since people who cluster geographically also cluster genetically, and from what I know archeologically, the North Africans in question migrated from the central Sahara and/or eastern desert and not from the north, since very few people are native to or lived in the Sahara desert which spans over almost the whole of North Africa (besides the coast, where invading Caucasians did in fact settle), this is relevant. Not making an argument, just a point.
Taharqa
07:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
^First of all, who ever said that the Egyptians changed phonetically and fully adapted to Egyptian climate? Keita and others said they had tropical body plans and Egypt isn't in the tropics. Besides, mass population change in phenotype does not naturally occur that fast. Judaism is a religion, not a race or ethnicity, hence the distinction European Jew, and not Asiatic Jew. European Jews are mostly European, yet they inherit the culture of their distant ancestors (despite intermingling with fellow neighboring Europeans). But even some Caucasian looking Israelii Jews (with the exception of the Israeli Fellahin) are a result of the Indo-European expansion after 2,000 B.C and a bit of intermingling... Palestinians for example reflect their recent Asiatic roots a little more as a group(they were probably less subjected to foreign influence). Also, the Afro-Asiatic language its self (which includes semitic) started in East Africa (scholars think Ethiopia), and the further you go back in time, the more that Afro-Asiatic speakers should coalesce into a single ethnic entity that reflects their cultural forbears, unless of course culture was imposed on them. Asiatic Jews also have traces of E3b, East African DNA, these people are not pure blooded. The original inhabitants (which they still are in essence) would of been slightly darker (but not jet black) given evolutionary theory (like Palestinians). A lot of people did not fully adapt to where they currently stay though anyways, that is a longer process that takes more than a few thousand years (this is common knowledge). Most settlements/kingdoms/empires don't last that long and people usually only stayed put if there was a barrier..
Taharqa
07:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
From article on
Jew:
This theory could also solve the paradox of DNA studies noted above that show Ashkenazi Jews to be related to the peoples of the nations surrounding Israel and being relatively far from their European neighbours, despite physical features that sometimes are more closely resembles that of the peoples of southern and central Europe; as one explanation would be a large miscegenation millennia ago followed by almost no outside genetic contact thereafter.but this kind of assumptions is not supported by any historical account, and the extent of physical features similarity between Ashkenazi jews and non-Jewish Europeans is disputed .
-- Urthogie 11:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
No, you're backwards Urgothie, and you answered your own question.
Quote:
"as one explanation would be a large miscegenation millennia ago (Indo-European expansion, I told you that) followed by almost no outside genetic contact thereafter."
Also, I'm not really understanding that seeing as how Ashkenazi Jews are from Rhineland near Germany! They're European Jews who descend from the Middle East, but I have discussed that Urgothie..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
Your explanation about Palestine seems illogical seeing as how virtually all Middle easterners are ethnically homogeneous Arabs, and Arab isn't a race anyways. Proto-Arabs themselves have been subjected to much Indo-European expansion in the form of the Greek, Persian, and Roman conquests, but generally kept their Asiatic identity as a whole. The Yemeni people are the original Arabs and they're intermediate between 'Sub-Saharan' and 'Eurasian' given their thousands of years of contact with Ethiopia, it's been a two way relationship for millenia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=15457403
Though the people who expanded weren't from Yemen, they were from Mecca. In the same breath though, it's extremely false for you to equate darker skin with Africa, the Middle East isn't exactly forgiving as far as heat and UV is concerned. You disregard evolutionary theory totally in your claim that Arab Eurasians are dark as a result of admixture, which is unfounded, why are southern Indians so dark then? And Native Australian aboriginals? You're being a hypocrite now, you say dark skin in Africa doesn't equate with relatedness to other Africans (which it does, given recent common ancestry), Then you claim that Arabs are only darker because they are closer to Africans (even though they have no recent common ancestry with Africans)? Yea, geographically closer to the equator in Africa, that's about it, genetically they're closer to Europeans as a group. They simply adapted to warmer climates than Europeans who drifted further away genetically as they entered the cold climates of Europe many thousands of years ago. I really don't see your point, given the known constant contact with Europeans and Asiatics, and simple observation of the indigenous Asiatic Arab groups (like the fellahin), one can easily make a clear distinction between the native inhabitants of the Middle East and northern Europeans, ethnically. Palestinians simply reflect their ancestral state more so than their neighbors next door, and it's important to note that in biblical times, these two lands were the same. Just different cultures now, and everyone knows that Israel is a lot more western influenced than Palestine is and has been for many centuries so you're thinking backwards. Do you have a source for your claim that the Palestinians' ethnic identity (darker skin, curlier hair) is due to the Arab expansion (that's the first time I've ever heard that, ever)? Again, "Arab" is a cultural identity that is no older than 1800 years old. The proper term would be 'Eurasian', those native to southwest Asia, and Palestinians are south west Asians so that makes no sense.. That's like having French "mixed" with English, which is indistinguishable. It's not hard to understand. I simply think that you need to learn more about evolution theory, migration, and history. You probably know your history, but you seem to have a poor concept of evolutionary theory. Or maybe you're just confusing yourself, I'm not sure what you're implying, but I'm patient and will be happy to steer you straight given any misconceptions.. Taharqa 15:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Persians are relatively lighter than their neighbors, largely because they are not Arabs
^^Persians were not originally semitic, they spoke an Indo-European language and migrated from the north. They are/were "Aryans".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persians
1. "Black" is a term I don't use for the reason you suggested. Southern Indians and native Australians are 'blacker' than most Africans phenotypically but genetically they're not similar. As I said before, I'm concerned with 'Africaness' and more recent common ancestry. I don't advocate a 'black' Egypt no more than I advocate a 'black' Nubia, my only contention is that they were very similar to each other and shared recent common ancestry, and at one point were the exact same people culturally and ethnically. Empirical data seems to back that up, Keita admits this.
2. The only reason I question your knowledge of evolutionary theory is simply due to the fact that you assumed people can develop significantly unique traits so quickly. We know this is false and my knowledge of evolutionary theory comes from every aspect of progressive learning (books, research, and schooling). This is a fairly layman aspect of the subject as it is anyways, so there's actually no need to appeal to authority, as this is common knowledge. Taharqa 17:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
1. Well it seems pretty clear to me first off that the traits associated with appearence evolve faster than those associated with various systems below the skin.
^^I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.
2. But anyways, isn't the logical extension of your view that if the human race had (hypothetically) had very little intra-group mixing, and humans just gradually moved north over the millenia, and thousands of years went by of evolution-- that nothing would distinguish the "Africanness" of the guy in Norway from the "Africanness" of the guy who evolved in Ethiopia, despite the fact that they'd have comepletely different skin colors? It seems to be a
reductio ad absurdum to just focus on this "Africanness", no?
No, you're confused again, people develop various phenotypes independently. Skin color is correlated with closeness to the equator and physical cranial/facial traits are a result of different environmental pressures to micro-climates/macro-climates, along with random individual variation. Like I said, my only contention is that they were very similar to each other and shared recent common ancestry and that it would be hypocritical to impose a social label like 'black' onto the Nubians but not the Ancient Egyptians. I don't see it ass '
reductio ad absurdum' at all, it's very straight forward.
Taharqa
17:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course recent common origins in Africa identifies "Africanity", this is the very genetic concept on which 'race' is based. People who are more distinct genetically have more distant common ancestry. Africans are allowed to vary more so than Europeans and all other peoples due to the simple fact that human variation has its longest history on the African continent. Yet it would be useless to split Africa into 50 million races simply due to this diversity, that's absurd.
Quote:
It is important to keep in mind the long presence of humans in Africa, and that there should be a great range of biological variation in indigenous "authentic" Africans http://www.forumcityusa.com/viewtopic.php?t=318&mforum=africa Taharqa 18:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
1. First question.. People who are distant geographically are distant genetically by environmental law. Asia is extremely different than Africa geographically and these isolated population only derives from one single exodus out of one African population. I'm not sure what you're asking but anyone who travels that far and drifts for that long will obviously be genetically distinct from their ancestors.
Taharqa
18:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
^No, they've drifted and adapted to the extremes of the Asian environment.
^Again, no, they've adapted to an East Asian environment.
There you have it then. And actually your question wasn't really hypothetical, you can apply it to the East Asians of today. Taharqa 18:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The ideal criterion that each continent be a discrete landmass is commonly disregarded in favor of more arbitrary, historical conventions.
But anyways, this is yet another specific that neither I (nor you, I'm presuming) know so much about.
You shouldn't "assume".. I don't know what you've been reading but I know that you understand what a "Mongoloid" is and why they're not Africans. Honestly you aren't making sense now, I'm sorry.
But anyways, am I correct to say then that your argument relies on the idea that the African environment is what determines Africanness? What is scientific about using line drawn around Africa centuries before?
African climate is a lot more uniform in comparison to the rest of the world, which is obvious given that Africa is smaller than the rest of the world. There is no extreme environmental variation in Africa, and the point is that the indigenous people of Africa come from the same relatively recent source and didn't travel too far away from each other. They also intermingled.
The ideal criterion that each continent be a discrete landmass is commonly disregarded in favor of more arbitrary, historical conventions.
^That's true in terms of land mass for some continents (Europe and Asia), but not "Environment". Learn the distinction.. Also geography is in fact a legitimate science and there is a basis for Africa to be separated as a 'continent' given that is it separated by water from all other lands and only connects with Asia through the Sinai Peninsula, which explains recent genetic gene flow from Asia to Egypt. I know we aren't debating the validity of geography now? How many concepts are you looking to destroy for the sake of argument?
Do you disagree with this, or what? How can you use a concept from pre-Darwinian map-making to justify an essentially Darwinian argument
I'm quite sure Darwin agreed that Africa is a unique continent, separate from the others. I doubt that he'd disregard science (geography) for the sake of agreeing with your point. Taharqa 19:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
How is that a Non sequitur when I answered your question directly? Maybe you're asking the wrong questions.
How can you use a concept from pre-Darwinian map-making to justify an essentially Darwinian argument
^Because according to evolutionary law, those who are close geographically and usually close genetically unless there's an extreme difference in environment and subsequent isolation. There are no 'extreme' differing environments with in Africa, as compared to the bulk of the rest of the world. Geography coincides with environment to a certain degree. The environment of Northern Europe is nothing like that of Northern or sub-saharan Africa. Whether or not geographical classifications are arbitrary, common sense will tell you that variants of the same source who stay with in close proximity, are more than likely to be closely related. That's why "Africans" are "Africans", Europeans are Europeans, Southwest Asians are Southwest Asians and East Asians are East Asians. East Asians are geographically distant from Native Americans, but genetically similar due to recent common ancestry. Because of proximity, Southwest Asians are genetically similar to Europeans and they are related groups with recent common ancestry who adapted their own personal features. "Authentic" Africans all migrated from south of the sahara and adapted to various climates with in Africa, but because of close proximity and recent common ancestry, they're all related groups with in the same bracket. Even Berbers of North Africa (who have obviously been infiltrated with Eurasian blood) are still intermediate between the two extremes of so-called "Caucasoid" and Negroid", and are related to East Africans genetically more so than they are to Northern Europeans, even with the admixture! (Though it's important to note that we don't know which way the admixture went, they could of been originally Eurasian immigrants, but most people hold that they're indigenous to Africa due to their language and culture, most likely the Sahara). Same with today's upper Egyptians. Well, actually, the Mahgreb Berbers are thought to have been that way even in the past and I can admit that there were early migrations, probably from Europe to the North Coasts of Africa and the Canary Islands thousands of years ago, but they'd of been restricted to North Africa because of the Sahara. Archeology tells us that the Egyptians, Nubians, etc all migrated from the South during the Sahara's fertile period, and not from the North or coastal regions. These coastal people were the northern "Lybians" of antiquity, described by the Greeks and the Egyptians. If I haven't explained myself well enough for you I probably never will.. Be back later.. Btw, I'm not trying to convince that they were 'black', just to open your mind and steer away from any Dogma. Taharqa 20:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
^Ok, I see what you mean.. I'm also reading another source which states that the word African is a 'misnomer'(in reference to race), but this is the problem with labels and 'race' period. When ever you're speaking in reference to a large group, there's going to be identification problems. Going back to what I said about Biologically Africa though, I don't draw a line anywhere, I'm speaking in reference to migration patterns and cuts-offs. Nature draws the line with oceans and seas on all sides of the continent. Northern Egypt is the crossroads that introduces Africa to Asia, and I agree, Africa with in its self has a varied topography, so where to draw the line(you can ask the same thing about race)? I see it like this, you have certain animals that are native only to the African continent and travel through out the majority of the whole (besides the desert of course, who does?), like Rhino, Giraffe, and Zebra.. With in their respective categories they're all considered animals of the African variety, and in each respect, with in species they relate to each other, and also native animals period, like African killer bees who are not like European bees, but relate to other African bees because of proximity inside the continent and recent common ancestry. This very same concept I apply to people and to not do that, simply diminishes various aspects of the English language. We have to learn when to put things in context and not reduce everything to the lowest common denominator, because it's impossible to make sense of things that way.. No need to complicate things more than they really are.. Taharqa 22:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
^Exactly, you're a really sensible guy.. I'd like you, if you will when you get a chance, to read this article about the controversy of Ancient Egypt and race, and you can decide if any of the information is relevant to the article. It's a very objective article that takes all arguments into account from the King Tut renderings to modern perceptions of race, and even literature. Probably one of the fairest articles I've read as it is brutally honest and doesn't try to appeal to either side. http://en.allexperts.com/e/c/co/controversy_over_racial_characteristics_of_ancient_egyptians.htm And likewise, enjoyed the engagement. Hotep(Peace) Taharqa 23:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and we should all agree by now that this quote below is false, so I took it out of the culture section..
Dynastic Egypt shows strong cultural ties to Crete dating back to the Old Kingdom (about 2686 BC). [21] Greek culture received much of its Egyptian influence through Crete.
Crete/Minoan civilization
Crete was the center of the Minoan civilization (ca. 2600–1400 BCE), the oldest civilization in Europe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete
Ancient Egypt, 3150 BC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_egypt
The source:
http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/foreignrelations/crete.html
The statement says more than the source and totally over exaggerated it. No mention of strong cultural ties, I'm quite sure that people from Crete visited Egypt once or twice, but cultural ties is extremely far fetched and as far as I know, no one has ever made that claim before. They mention "indirect contact", not cultural ties, especially "strong" cultural ties. Egyptian influence over Greece came much later, and even that shouldn't be considered 'cultural' ties, Egypt was independent of Greece and culturally distinct for its first 2500 years. Honest mistake I guess. Taharqa 01:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I understand your logic, but as I stated, the source makes no mention of any cultural ties at all, but possible "Indirect contact", I'd assume in the form of distant trade. Egypt had trade contacts with a lot of people (probably most of the ancient world), no reason to single out Crete. Also, I provided the wikipedia source that confirms Crete to be hundreds of years younger than Egyptian civilization so this in no way can allude to any racial affinities, as is the concern of the article anyways.
Taharqa
05:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
King Tutankhamun
A previous rendering in 2002 by the Discovery Channel however, provided much different results. [15]
^Indeed, last time I nievely stated that the rendering portrayed "Nubian" features, which is a weasel word and people should be able to see for themselves what the source tells us. There were also many comments about his racial affinities from other sources other than what's posted, which may be relevant, but the inclusions reflect balance as it is now, so it may not be too significant.
Language as a way to classify "race"
Complications have also cropped up in the use of linguistics as a basis for racial categorization. The demise of the famous "Hamitic Hypothesis", which purported to show that certain African languages around the Nile area could be associated with "Caucasoid" peoples is a typical case. Such schemes fell apart when it was demonstrated that Negro tribes far distant also spoke similar languages, tongues that were supposedly a reserved marker of Caucasoid presence or influence. [22] For work on African languages, see Wiki article Languages of Africa and Joseph Greenberg. Read the rest in article.
^^ Is appropriately put under the language category as people should be aware of the misconceptions and new research concerning race and language, just as they should be informed of the latest genetic studies or cranial interpretations. All sources are cited..
And that's about it for now, looks good to me...............
I also removed this quote from the Diop section. Other criticisms contend that Diop's method of categorizing the "types" of the mummies were biased, falsely grouping the mummies as "negroid" regardless of important distinguishing features.
^We can all agree that so-called 'negroid' features aren't exclusive or inclusive to so-called "blacks" (which was Diop's main argument), and even if this was so, it has nothing to do with the Skin test as diop's mummy selection had nothing to do with the test. I understand that this error was probably just due to a cloudy moment of contention and for the sake of making an opposing argument. So I'll add a better critique to balance it out then.
New Entry
"However, Diop does not describe any tests that verify his claims that melanin is "non-existent" among the "white-skinned races" nor provide evidence supporting his assertion that the absence of melanin in the epidermis is due to embalming techniques". Still, ironically, This technique was later adopted by the U.S. forensic department to determine the racial identity of badly burnt accident victims. [23] Taharqa 01:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
^Cool, understandable. And actually I only copied and pasted the word 'ironically' from the source, but I agree, it may be in bad taste.
Taharqa
05:11, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Uthorgie, I have the impression that you don't know well the chronology of ancient Egypt and that of your classical civilizations (Rome, Israel, Greece...). How can you put in question the tesimony of Diodorus of Sicily based on Egyptian and Nubian (Ethiopian) informants? These were Blacks. No dought about that. Diodorus of Sicily lived in 1st century BCE. Herodotus lived in the 5th century BCE. Their testimony is more important than the findings of Archeologists because they were witness of the events they were reporting and of the color of the skin of the people they met. We know, thanks to them, that up to their time the Inhabitants of Egypt were still Blacks. Archeology can have more weight in case of contradictions between ancient writers. But we know that there is not. Urthogie, are you going to make people believe that our testimony (based on our eyes) on the colors of the skin of the people of today is not useful because these colors will only be determined by the Archeologists of the future? Actually, you have the same reaction than that of the many biased Western Egyptologists who refuse to consider ancient writings on Egypt as sources of Egyptology. Other sciences do not have that complex. They start from the same writers who strangely enough are found genius! So I am sorry for Urthogie, ancient Egyptians were Blacks. Your Archeologists, be them from America or from Japan, are making fantasy when they try to contradict the Egyptians, the Nubians, the Greeks, the Arabs and the Hebrews about the blackness of the Egyptians which was obvious in those ancient times. This article of Wikipedia must include a section on the testimony of ancient literature on the race of the ancient Egyptians. Up to now I only have texts in Italian and French. If you have access to English versions of Herodotus, Aristotle..., please Urthogie, have the courage to begin writing that section. Objectivity in science means to be able to bow before an evidence. Or maybe Taharqa has already access to that ancient literature in English? Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 82.88.213.182 19:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Not to get off topic or anything, But I was over on Stormfront reading their racist crap about the color/race of the ancient Egyptians, and I would love for some of you wiki aurthors to go over their and shut them up 74.128.200.135 02:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
^I usually don't deal with the ignorant types at stormfront, they're for the most part, irrational and unbearably ignorant. Though I may slide over there in the near future sometime to give them a brief reality check.
What do you guys make of these quotes?
Aristotle (384-322 B.C.E.) Greek philosopher, scientist, and tutor to Alexander the Great. Aristotle is said to have written 150 philosophical treatises.
Aristotle on skin color and 'courage'.
"Too black a hue marks the coward as witness Egyptians and Ethiopians and so does also too white a complexion as you may see from women, the complexion of courage is between the two." (Physiognomics, Vol. VI, 812a)
Aristotle also makes reference to the hair form and bowleggedness of the Egyptians and Ethiopians:
"Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair."
And
Ammianus Marcellinus (325/330-after 391) - Roman historian.
Marcellinus, in his description of the ancient Egyptians of his time:
"...the men of Egypt are mostly brown or black with a skinny desiccated look." (Ammianus Marcellinus, Book XXII para 16) (Physiognomics, Book XIV, p. 317) Taharqa 04:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, Taraqh, I looked up that Jew stuff and the article has it wrong. Jews are mainly middle eastern in their genetic history-- Steven Pinker explains that they look similar to any people they move near in the diaspora after a couple centuries because one intermarraige or rape is enough to make a certain local gene completely take over the jewish gene pool there because it's very adaptive for that area. So there's relatively little admixture with other groups.-- Urthogie 12:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
^^Basically he asserts what I already knew, phenotype and genotype are two different things. They have adapted European phenotypes because of their history, but cluster towards middle easterners because of their geographical proximity, plus I already made the distinction between 'European' Jews and Asiatic Jews earlier. This repeats the same information.
And I made the changes we discussed. Taharqa 15:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
A side note, to these arguments about ancient history and such: I recognize that the Egyptians had wooly hair, and dark skin when Herodotus and Aristotle went to them. The question is how black and how wooly-- there are arabs who can be described as dark skinned with wooly hair, but are nonetheless recognized as arab in today's society. For example I have a friend here from Saudi Arabia who fits that description. Another issue that remains in such arguments is that they probably had the "Caucasoid" craniometry associated with Ethiopians.-- Urthogie 12:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Syria wasn't Arab till the 7th century.
^They have the same Eurasian ancestors, 'Arab' isn't a racial term, it's cultural, they have always been the same people, with the exception of the Yemenites, who have substantial Sub-Saharan influence, and probably had more so back then.
As far as the quotes, well, they all compared them to the Ethiopians, so why don't you try and fit it in that context before you look outside it. They were mentioned in the same breath, side by side as being too black and having curlier hair than other nations. That and the fact that the Ethiopians were directly bordering Egypt gives you a logical answer. Besides, we're talking about dark wholly haired people in Africa, Eurasian people were well known to the Greeks at the time and would of been mentioned if it had applied. I don't see any logical way around those quotes honestly, other than that they were similar to Ethiopians (Nubians), which is plainly stated in writing. Taharqa 16:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Which source establishes the connection between cultural evidence and genetic evidence?
Early culture, from whence it developed and the surrounding areas who had input and/or shared culture with Egypt from the start. Which is why I put what I put under culture to begin with, because it was the only thing relevant to the article at the time. I have no idea why you insist on mentioning Crete, obviously Nubia and Lybia had much more of a connection to Egypt than far away Crete.. It's confusing to me why you insist on mentioning them, especially when Crete is not known to have any real cultural ties with Egypt, and in reference to Egypt, Crete really just isn't important at all and theres no reason to mention them. But I guess I can get rid of the culture section if it seems problematic, because indeed culture can be (in a lot of cases) suggestive of, but not implicit of the "racial" or ethnic identity of a given group.. Taharqa 15:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I erased it already. I never made the connection in the first place, you did when you asked me the question. Taharqa 16:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Did Aristotle go to Egypt ever? I thought this question hasn't been answered as of yet. Or was he just repeating hearsay and attempting to do some logic with it? Questions have been raised about Herodotus as well. [16]-- Urthogie 16:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Questions have been raised about Herodotus as well.
What are you talking about? That source questions whether or not he has been to the black sea, not Egypt, we know he traveled to Egypt and went as far south as the 1rst Cataract at least.
There's apparently no solid evidence that Aristotle ever visits Egypt but it would be foolish to assume that he never met/seen any Egyptians and Ethiopians. Besides, he confirms what Herodotus and Ammianus Marcellinus says, who both surely traveled to Egypt. Even if Aristotle did repeat hearsay(which is doubtful), obviously they must of been described to him by people with no reason to lie, which is confirmed by writers who lived before (Herodotus) and after (Marcellinus) him.
Taharqa
16:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Mummies with straight hair
Actually, Keita has already proven that the Crania was African Crania. Brace' study has been discredited. He used only one male sample from Uganda to represent all of Africa. http://en.allexperts.com/e/c/co/controversy_over_racial_characteristics_of_ancient_egyptians.htm
There has been no DNA testing on mummies, and current DNA tests to indicate their origins indicated that they were African, most likely East and that they are unified with all other Africans under the PN2 clade.
Numerous genetic tests have been performed on the Egyptians in order to determine their origins. One maternal study linked Egyptians with people from Ethiopia and Eritrea.[7] There was also a Y chromosome study by Lucotte et al performed on Egyptians, with haplotypes V, XI, and IV being most common. Haplotype V is common in Berbers and has a low frequency outside Africa. [8] Haplotypes V and XI, and IV are all supra/sub-Saharan horn of African haplotypes, and they are far more dominant in Egyptians than Near Eastern or European haplotypes. [9] Kivisild T; Reidla M; Metspalu E; Rosa A; Brehm A; et al. Ethiopian mitochondrial DNA heritage: Tracking gene flow across and around the gate of tears. 2004 American Journal of Human Genetics 75 (5): 752-770. Determined there is a close genetic relationship between Ethiopians, Eritreans and Yemenis, as well as pointing out genetic affinities with Egypt.
He (Cavalli-Sforza) never studied Egyptian Mtdna or Y-Chromsome. Cavalli-Sforza findings were before the finding of the Pn2 clade. The Pn2 clade was found to unite africans from North, South, East and West africa. The finding of the Pn2 clade has changed the way that African genetics is viewed. Most Africans including Egyptians are overwhelmingly of the Pn2 clade E3a and E3b. http://en.allexperts.com/e/c/co/controversy_over_racial_characteristics_of_ancient_egyptians.htm
There were no mummies with straight hair native to Egypt, read this.
http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/hair2.html
Alright, to be fair though, I found other statements that can be seen as opposing or contradictory to those. They were also described as 'medium toned' and near that of northern Indians, lighter than the people of their border, who in turn were slightly lighter than the Ethiopians. Which I tried to reconcile with the other quotes, and it was a little more difficult. My only explanation was that these quotes seem to come at much later dates (excluding Marcellinus). Though at the same time they're still describing 'dark skinned' "mulatto" types and compares them to Indians, who are also mulatto types.
Indeed, Achilles Tatius of Alexandria writes his impression of the herdsmen in the Delta.
"they are blackish, like half-castes!"
According to Arrian (Indica 6.9): (c. 86 A.D. - after 146 A.D.)
The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically.
Strabo - (63/64 BC – c. AD 24) As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in colour, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Aegyptians..
Marcus Manilius - (fl. 1st century AD)
The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone. – Manilius, Astronomica 4.724
French scholar Constantin-François de ChassebÅ"uf, Comte de Volney visited Egypt between 1783 and 1785 and comments:
"...[The Copts] all have a bloated face, puffed up eyes, flat nose, thick lips; in a word, the true face of the negro. I was tempted to attribute it to the climate, but when I visited the Sphinx, its appearance gave me the key to the riddle. On seeing that head, typically negro in all its features, I remembered the remarkable passage where Herodotus says: 'As for me, I judge the Colchians to be a colony of the Egyptians because, like them, they are black with woolly hair. ...'" In other words, the ancient Egyptians were true Negroes of the same type as all native-born Africans. That being so, we can see how their blood, mixed for several centuries with that of the Romans and Greeks, must have lost the intensity of its original color, while retaining nonetheless the imprint of its original mold. We can even state as a general principle that the face is a kind of monument able, in many cases, to attest or shed light on historical evidence on the origins of peoples.[33]
I'll try and contribute in a second, I'm still researching.
Taharqa
17:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Yet and still, the chart clearly shows that it was well with in the range of the mean average of African hair, and it explains about how bonds break over time. Besides, hair has nothing to do with race..
It was in 1877 that Dr. Pruner-Bey wrote a paper in the Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, vol. 6 (1877), pp. 71-92 titled On the Human Hair as a Race Character, concluded that ". . . . we arrive at the conclusion that the color of the hair alone is insufficient to characterize a race." http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/on_human_hair_-_1877.pdf Taharqa 18:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Urgothie, you're backwards, in 1877 they believed in race, now a days scientists don't, so choose who you believe, either way hair has nothing to do with race. The hair was essentially African anyways according to the chart like I said that averaged out 4 complete studies.
San, Southern African 55.00
Zulu, Southern African 55.00
Sub-Saharan Africa 60.00
Tasmanian (Black) 64.70
Australian (Black) 68.00
Western European 71.20
Asian Indian 73.00
Navajo American 77.00
Chinese 82.60
The overall average of all four sets of ancient Egyptian hair samples was 60.02. Taharqa 18:24, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
^Of course, still doesn't mean that there is a such thing as African hair, the social ideas of the laymen can not be used as evidence. Plus the chart still shows that the hair is with in the African average.
Taharqa
19:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
You're right about the Ethiopian study, I remembered seeing that a while ago, but I just let it go. Is the ancient history section cool though? Feel free to fix any mistakes or typos, I tried to be as neutral as possible.
I agree with you on the background section for racism also, it deserves expansion. I'll try and see if I can't find some relevant material a little later if you don't beat me to it.
We may soon be ready for a peer review. Keep adding stuff
Haha, you're crazy, I wish, lol. Article does look good though, everyone is contributing, and actually you're helping me look at it another way also. All of Egypt in my opinion wasn't 'what we'd call' black, but I believe a lot were, especially in upper Egypt, and those were the people who essentially started the civilization in the early beginning. I'm willing to say that the culture and civilization was essentially African, but multi-ethnic with different waves of people coming at different times. This is why there are so many contradictions and confusion as to what they were for the layman, the fact is they weren't just one people. I only became passionate about this when coming across racist idiots who intentionally go out of their way to deny the extremely important African elements, or what they call 'black'. It seems as if the Ethiopians (Nubians) and Egyptians were closely related, but not exactly the same, not to mention Egypt was more of a melting pot. In the end I now think Egypt was a mix of Nubian and Lybian type Africans, and later on the Hyksos, Greeks, Romans, then Arabs, etc all brought in a more complex foreign mixture that we can see today, mainly in the delta region. Taharqa 20:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
True about stormfront, I thought of it, but no, I've read a few of their threads and it of no use, science and objective scholarship doesn't exist over there, it's just a constant socio-political race war. I've long gotten out of the biased stage as there is no use lying to myself, let alone other people. I just have to go with that facts available, and form an opinion. I don't want to force my opinion on people, but I will by any means try and get the facts across, because mis-information leads to bogus opinions. I'm going to the gym and out to eat for a minute, I'll be back later to try and contribute to the article a little bit more. Hotep.... Taharqa 21:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm, indeed, Eurasian/Arab tribes, Hebrews, etc were all contemporary with the Egyptians, and personally I do hold the fact that the Bible lists Egypt under the family of Ham/Khm, Mizriam, brother of Cush(Ethiopia) Put(Land Of Punt, some believe Phut), and Canaan(Ancient Sumerians/Babylonians) to be circumstantial evidence indicating possible relationships, and take it into consideration all the time. But we would have to cover two other points of contention, mainly is the Bible literally reliable in the name of objective scholarship, and can we prove that ancient Sumer was inhabited by Africans? These will have to be cleared up before we can even consider the Bible a source.
At the moment I'm not aware of too many Arab or ancient Eurasian writers who commented on these aspects. As far as the depth of the section, feel free to touch it up if you will, yet be sure to leave the main points of contention in tact, I'm not sure that I see too much of a problem with it as it is, but of course it isn't perfect. I'd need a little bit of help to perfect it. Taharqa 01:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Taharqa or Urthogie. Does someone know a bit about the "Lepsius Canon"? It seems that it is the best means to determine the racial caracteristics of the ancient Egyptians. The article does not mention it. It can fit well in the section "Research" if the informations about it are found. Another thing. The pictures illustrating the Egyptians in the article are not real "photos" but modern "renderings" by Eurocentric drawers. I think it is Urthogie who brought them. I suggest to have them removed and replaced by real "photos". Finally, the teats of the breasts of Blacks and Whites do not look alike. Those of Whites are yellow or red and those of Blacks are black. A section can deal with this subject if "photos" of the breasts of the Egyptians, especially women, are found. The teats can help identify the race of the ancient Egyptians. Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 82.88.213.182 09:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 82.88.213.182 18:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
This composite modern drawing, frequently shown in Afrocentric texts as supposed "proof" that the Egyptians and Kushites were identical, is a known error (click here for brief explanation). The actual tomb does not show anything of the sort.
Copy of some figures from the Seti I tomb by Minutoli in 1820, possibly when the tomb was in better shape. From left: four Libyans, Nubian, Syrian, and Egyptian.
I agree, there's heated debate over that and Yurco expects people to take his word for it, regardless of the fact that the Nubian looking people are called "Rm.T in the photo, only Egyptians are Rm.t, and he never explained that. In my opinion Yurco may be right but I can't just take his word for it, especially when there's things that he avoided explaining and he never took a photo to validate his claim. You have one person who went there and took a photo to prove it, claiming that the tomb pictures are real. Then you have some one else who claims to have gone there, but has no pictures to prove it, and he says it's fake. It really means nothing either way to me and doesn't effect my opinion. They're discussing and analyzing it thoroughly in this thread on Egypt Search.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=004936..
^I'm making no argument for that one though, Its isn't a shut case for me...
And Urgothie! Again, bro isn't lying, that website indeed is biased and that picture on the front is a "Eurocentric" rendering which effectively makes the Egyptians' skin lighter, which isn't cool. I've never seen them colored that light in any tomb unless it was the women who they drew yellow (for symbolic purposes representing fertility), This is the real actual photo.
http://www.catchpenny.org/images/seti1a.gif
^Now look at the one in the front article.. I just noticed that myself when he brought it up, the one in the article isn't a true representation, has nothing to do with lighting, it's a completely different color.. I suggest that you take it down and replace it with the real authentic photo, and not a copy/rendering. I'm going to go ahead and remove and wait for one of you guys to add the actual photo, we have to be as accurate as possible here and that photo is misrepresented to the extreme, notice the Eurasian and Lybian both stayed the same color, and the Egyptian is the only one drawn lighter. You type in "tomb of races - Seti I" in google image and the authentic photo is the only one that pops up, the other one is a cool representation, but in concern to this article it's a farce. Taharqa 20:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, I don't know if it would be right to put "Language as a way to classify race" under 18th/19th century views, since the hamitic myth and dynastic race theory were both prevelant and saw its peak in the 20th century. Maybe you can switch the name of the section to Old views, or older, or something of that nature? Taharqa 20:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Urgothie, that's backwards, what you're (or whoever posted that picture) doing is original research from a geocities website that tries to debunk 'afrocentric' claims, it isn't concerned with science and I can easily refute it with an Afrocentric geocities site. But what's the use? Common sense Urgothie, seriously, those are two different renderings and what proof do we have that this is a direct photo even if the lighting from the original was bad? Did they say that they went back and took another picture? Or is that an assumption? Taharqa 21:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
^You're exactly right, I'd have to agree with everything you say here. Taharqa 21:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
This image isn't from geocities originally. I got it from thebanmappingproject. I'm not gonna be on this site for the weekend, please don't make overly drastic changes because I completely disagree with your arguments here and I'll respond to them when I get a chance.-- Urthogie 21:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
^Cool.. I myself won't make any changes at all, and I don't think there's an argument, we know for a fact that this is a copy/rendering and not the original, only thing to be discussed is if it's fair to present that as an authentic representation of the original over the other one, or either copy for that matter. Be it that the article is about 'race', this is extremely important, in any other context it isn't so significant. It should be confirmed that this is a replica of the actual tomb, which of course it isn't.. Taharqa 22:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie, the image removed is not a picture, but a copy by Minutoli in 1820. In "geocities" http://www.geocities.com/enbp/foreigners.html, the photograph is on the left side and the copy on the right side. So you can see both of them. As the subject we are dealing with is very sensitive, I suggest we put the photograph in the article rather than the drawing. It will be the same case with the representation of the races in the tomb of Ramesses III. The drawing made of it is a big falsification which cannot be tolerated in an article such as this on "ancient Egypt and race". Lusala lu ne Nkuka-- 82.88.213.182 18:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for the first picture. But it is so beautiful! As for the second, you know well from our discussion that we have Syrians, Egyptians and Libyans. Of cause, it is very interesting to see that Egyptians can be taken for Nubians, because they are the same people ethnically and racially. But when the Egyptians present Egyptians, we have to accept that reality, and not say they are wrong. Nobody will believe that the Egyptians who built such a great civilization were suffering from a lack of self-definition! "rmT" means Egyptian. This word is written on the top of those dark Blacks on the photograph of the tomb of Ramesses III. The drawers of second removed picture put these word on the top of the brown Blacks taken maybe from the tomb of Seti I to replace the dark Blacks of the tomb of Ramesses III. See the best to do, but it is becoming clear to me that it is quite impossible to let pass the idea of a "White" or "mix race" Egypt without falsifying facts. Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 82.88.213.182 15:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I second your earlier comment Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka a white or mixed race Egyptian civilization is just obsorb. There are just too much evidence that black Africans from the South and West of the Egypt were the original migrants of the area. 74.128.200.135 19:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Brief clarification, I'm the one who wrote what you just quoted, not Urgothie. Taharqa 04:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
In a work by E. A. Wallis Budge, I distinctly remember a plate showing hieroglyphics next to reliefs of egyptians enslaving nubians. The nubians thereon clearly had thicker, coarser and more wirey hair, darker skin, and much more prognathism than the Egyptians so depicted, although, the Egyptians seemed to be more dolichocephalic. Does anyone know the source of the image? It might be one of the 'gods of the Egyptians' books, or a work on hieroglyphics in particular. This relief was a period work. Later accounts by Greeks as given in the article would be that of a differing "racial" type than those of the period of those earlier Egyptians dynasties. 67.5.157.48 04:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
First of all, you guys should hunt down the book "Egypt In Africa", it's a classic volume and very informative. I got a little bit of info on the cultural aspects between Egypt and Africa from it and I can contribute that in a little while. http://www.amazon.com/Egypt-Africa-Theodore-Celenko/dp/0936260645
The Egyptians are undoubtably of Nubian origin, as the A-Group of lower Nubia and Upper Egypt had shared culture, the same culture that lead to dynastic Egyptian culture. Culture swept from south to north, and a kingdom was unified in the north. First dynasty Abydos tombs shows remains with predominantly stereotypical "negroid" morphology. Here's the study by Sonia R. Zakrzewski showing that AE's had a "super-negroid" body plan, not in my own words. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/egyptian_body_proportions.pdf
There indeed was some type of difference, biologically between northern and southern Egyptians though, and while culturally Egypt conformed to its southernly rooted culture, it conformed biologically, or cranial-metrically more towards the Northern type, though the southern Egyptians were still linked to the further southern groups like Somali, etc, while Northern Egyptians resembled modern Berber people cranial-facially, and it seems both types kept their "super-negroid" body plan. The thing is, if cranial studies can't be linked with archeology it's worthless, the Brace study being a good example since it's been shown that Europeans didn't emigrate into the Nile Valley. It wouldn't be right to call these northern Egyptians mulatto Berber types and Southern Egyptians East Africans/Negrito types. It was a diverse mold of African types period, most of them dark skinned yet so many people seem to interpret that as "Mixed".. A better word is multi-ethnic, not multi-racial, if any thing they were still closely related groups, despite the differences. Berbers are said by some to have came from East Africa anyways. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/keita.html Taharqa 01:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
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I believe the statement needs to be removed or rephrased since the mainstream consensus is disputed.
"Mainstream consensus is that ancient Egypt was a mixed-race gestalt of African and Middle Eastern ethnicities, with varying skin tones and other physical characteristics.[3][4][5][6] "
furthermore the external links make no reference to a mixed race society Muntuwandi 22:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
[3]
The biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians were tested against their neighbors and selected prehistoric groups as well as against samples representing the major geographic population clusters of the world. Two dozen craniofacial measurements were taken on each individual used. The raw measurements were converted into C scores and used to produce Euclidean distance dendrograms. The measurements were principally of adaptively trivial traits that display patterns of regional similarities based solely on genetic relationships. The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities in trivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southward through Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selective forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur. An assessment of race is as useless as it is impossible. Neither clines nor clusters alone suffice to deal with the biological nature of a widely distributed population. Both must be used. We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well.
This is what a gestalt is: a configuration, pattern, or organized field having specific properties that cannot be derived from the summation of its component parts; a unified whole. ( Dictionary.com)
[4] Page 42: "...the Egyptians were of mixed race"
[5] Slavery in ancient Egypt encompassed a wide range of skin colors, as did the Egyptian population itself, at all social levels...
[6] Look at the title :)
This proposal is somewhat ridiculous. You clearly haven't looked at the sources in depth. The most notable Afrocentrists have even gone out of their way to point out how the mixed-race hypothesis "unfairly" dominates science. That is to say, even the opposition acknowledges that these views are mainstream in science.-- Urthogie 22:39, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
[4] - One sentence in the whole book is insufficient to be considered mainstream
[5] - the book is about race in general not about ancient egypt.
[6] - The book presents a counter argument to afrocentrism and therefore cannot be considered mainstream. Muntuwandi 23:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Like I said, it's ridiculous to push this issue. Even the afrocentrists call this view mainstream, even hough they disagree with it. -- Urthogie 23:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I do not necessarily disagree with the mixed race hypothesis but I believe it has been oversimplified. food for thought.
I find this "egyptians are egyptians" line hilarious...Amercans are Americans but that doesn't tell me much about their genes. -- Vehgah 16:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Urthogie, I would like first of all to come back to the issue of the picture number 3 of the article. I told you that this man is not a Nubian, but an Egyptian. You are questioning the reliability of the picture I indicated you.
De façon exceptionnelle, dans le tombeau de Ramsès III où une vignette identifie une figure de Nubien comme égyptienne, l'image des Ret et des Nahasu est identique en tous points, y compris les vêtements. Les tenants de la thèse afrocentriste y voient une preuve que les Égyptiens étaient identiques aux autres Africains. Les autres égyptologues considèrent que les artistes ont mal étiqueté les images parce que les vignettes sont également inversées pour TMHHW (les Libyens) et AAMW (les Asiatiques/Sémites). [2]
In an exceptional way, in the tomb of Ramsès III where a label identifies a figure of Nubian like Egyptian woman, the image of Ret and Nahasu is identical in all points, including clothing. Holding of the thesis afrocentrist see a proof there that the Egyptians were identical to the other Africans. The other Egyptologists consider that the artists badly labelled the images because the labels are also reversed for TMHHW (Libyans) and AAMW (the Asian ones/Sémites).
Based on this picture the egyptians had a brown complexion. By standards of today would be considered a person of color. Basically if King Tut were alive today and were to go for dinner at a restaurant in New York, he would be served late and they would get his order wrong. Muntuwandi 19:00, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Dear Urthogie. Egyptology is profoundly rooted in its racist origins. “Egypt will be studied considering the passage of the human spirit from the east to the west, but it does not belong to the African spirit (L’Egypte sera examinée au passage de l’esprit humain de l’Est à l’Ouest, mais ne relève pas de l’esprit africain)” said Hegel. (Hegel, “Leçons sur la philosophie de l’histoire”, Paris: Vrin, 1954, p. 93). Egyptologists feel obliged to reject every proof of the blackness of the Egyptians.
Best regards! (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).
Dear Urthogie. In your last intervention, you raised a certain number of questions.
I am convinced, dear Urthogie, that truth will liberate the world. Best regards! (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).
these might be helpful.
http://archaeology.about.com/library/glossary/bldef_khartoummesolithic.htm
Early Nile Valley Farmers from El-Badri by Professor S. O. Y. Keita (2005) National Human Genome Center at Howard University Department of Anthropology, Smithsonian Institution
The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians Professor S.O.Y. Keita Department of Biological Anthropology Oxford University Professor A. J. Boyce University Reader in Human Population Oxford University
Viola76 04:16, 2 February 2007 (UTC)viola76
What does he look like
Muntuwandi 07:12, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
According to the picture the scientific consesus is that the libyan was mislabeled, would people mind expanding that topic because I don't know what that is suppose to mean. Does that mean that the Libyan is really the guy with the very black skin or is the libyan the guy from syria, or is the libyan the guy with brown skin? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.138.142 ( talk) 17:27, 4 February 2007 (UTC).
Still, the brown skin Egyptian is an authentic black man. As Joseph Ki-Zerbo put it, "many Blacks have brown skin (bien des Noirs ont la peau brune)" (Joseph Ki-Zerbo, "Histoire générale de l'Afrique Noire, d'Hier à Demain", Paris: Hatier, 1972, p. 80). This brown skin color is also found among the Nubians (Cf the image of Nubians in the tomb of Huy published by Georges Posener, Serge Sauneron, Jean Yoyote (Redatto), "Dizionario della civiltà Egizia", Milano: Il Saggiatore, 1961, p. 297) (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka)-- 195.110.156.38 09:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
This sentence doesn't make sense. The implication of this is that only caucausians/whites have hooknoses. This contradicts everything known about biological anthropology. We know that people with the so called hooknoses are simply people who have lived in high elevations. For example, Persians have hooknoses, but so do Ethiopians, many south africans and sudanese people, as well as even native americans who come from the andes or other mountain ranges. The shape of your nose is indepedent of race and totallly dependent on elevation. Ie. people from the chinese lowlands have flatnoses but this is because they come from dry desert climates like many africans. Of course we would never say this makes chinese black. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.138.142 ( talk) 17:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC).
It was nice discussing this with you two. Unfortunately it's against the rules for us not to discuss the article for such a lengthy period of time. Anyways, best regards, -- Urthogie 02:40, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
o.k since we both have a interest in ancient egypt we can continue to discuss it on our personal pages ive left some questions on yours
194.176.105.40 02:51, 10 February 2007 (UTC)viola76
No more discussion! Is it because I brought a chronological argument? This is unfair. If it helps the readers to make a scientific evaluation of the article, I think my contribution is worth mentioning. You are free to respond to it or not.
Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 195.110.156.38 14:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Dear Urthogie. Am I misquoting you? Who wrote this: "My point isn't that the Egyptians were as light as the semites, but rather that they were a mix between the semites and the Africans. If we divide the world into three groups, we'll have very rigid guidelines, and of course group people incorrectly. The Egyptians were a unique mixed race, and a three-way division doesn't address this fact. The ancient religious sources are not at all scientific. You are trying to argue a basically scientific point with a history given by religions, which are not scientific in nature. If we accepted religion as scientific we'd say we're all descended from Adam and Eve, materialized by god, when the scientific reality which proves this myth wrong is evolution. This is an example ofwhy modern science is more powerful than ancient religious myths in answering questions such as the one this article deals with.--Urthogie 19:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)"?
Best regards! Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka--
195.110.156.38
18:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
you are wasting your time with this discussion nkuka what ever evidence you bring urthogie will not accept it. look on his personal page and look at the discussion i am having with him regards Viola76 21:58, 10 February 2007 (UTC)viola76
Mainstream consensus is that ancient Egypt was a mixed-race gestalt of African and Middle Eastern ethnicities.[3] There are alternative views, however. Afrocentric scholars such as Martin Bernal and Cheikh Anta Diop claims that dynastic Egypt was from its inception--and remained throughout several millennia-- a primarily black, African civilization.
I think this part is fair and shows both sides of the story in a balenced way. Let's keep it like this. futurebird 20:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
fair enough futurebird but can we really say martin bernal is afrocentric? it seems to me from the paragraph that any one who reckons the original A.E were black african are labelled afrocentric and i mean the negative terms that the label entails. Viola76 22:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)viola76
Thank you Viola76 for your knowledge and for your wisdom. Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 195.110.156.38 14:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Rahotep looks like my uncle, can we add him back? :) futurebird 22:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
"It is apparent that the ancient Egyptians did not make racial distinctions themselves, but rather ethnic distinctions based on nationality. Tomb paintings depicting captive Nubians may show them as being very dark, but this is an artistic convention stereotyping a nationality, and to conclude there were therefore no very dark Egyptians would be a non sequitur. Similarly, the skin tones in art depicting the Egyptians themselves adhere to convention rather than an absolutely accurate description of reality. Tutankhamun is variously shown as being black as in the guardian statues found in his tomb, and brown or beige as in the lotus bust." [6]
I won't revert you though.-- Urthogie 22:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Peace! Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 195.110.156.38 15:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I just skimmed the article and I can't figure out what the controversy is about. Doesn't it just depend on how you define black? What exactly do Afrocentrists mean when they say Egyptians were primarily black? Do they just mean they had dark skin or are they claiming a genetic relationship with the peoples of sub-Saharan Afica? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TVismute ( talk • contribs) 04:50, 14 February 2007 (UTC).
To these quotations, one can add the following taken from Aboubacry Moussa Lam:
I am having a really hard time to figure out what the characteristics of the ancient egyptian were from this article. OMG why are we talking about black/white here????? They didn't care , they were doing business with everyone then!!! It was a multicultural state, and after all ended up with nubian and greek rulers. I learned NOTHING from this article and wish someone could delete it and start over. February 2007
Well excuse me, but this is a very controversial topic, and if you're to provide an argument, please make sure that your sources agree or at least acknowledge the argument being present. For example, I deleted the genetics section because it was extremely biased and was absolutely irrelevant to the argument on rather the Ancient (not modern) Egyptians were native to Africa and can be deemed as "Black African". You also didn't bring up the issue on what exactly a "Black African" is. Is it only exclusive to sub-saharan Africans, or any native dark skinned African? Also, how does a DNA chart clarify anything? These are modern studies and results and there's been a period of over 5,000 years since the inception of Egypt to present day.. According to Dr. S.O.Y Keita (P.H.D, biological Anthropology) a lot of today's descendants can trace a lot of their recent genetic heritage most likely back to the Arab invasion, and to a lesser extent Greek and Roman occupation, among other things. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/keita.html
I also don't see why the writer assumes that Ethiopians are mixed with "Caucasoid", which is a misnomer, though he doesn't make a point that possibly modern day Egyptians are also mixed, or explains why he thinks they were mixed, and when did the majority of "mixing" go on. His sources did not back his statements, these were his opinions. And if all of this "mixing" has been going on, what does that tell us about the racial characteristics of the ancient Egyptians (this doesn't prove them to be a mixed people from its inception)? If we're to talk about racial characteristics, and when race gets problematic, talk about origins and lineage. mtDNA tests on the oldest populations in Egypt (those with some of the oldest cultures) shows that they can be linked with people from Ethiopia and Eritrea.
"The current structure of the Egyptian population may be the result of further influence of neighbouring populations on this ancestral population." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14748828
^So somewhere down that line these people must of been predominantly East African in ethnicity, or to be conservative (even though this is the same opinion of my source), at least a lot of their ancestors were. So imo that whole gentic table and section was a distraction and in no way brings clarity to what the racial characteristics of the ancients were, it's just biased to someone's opinion and is irrelevant to the facts and method that should be taken to answer these questions. Also, quoting a non-qualified psychologist (Arthur Jensen) doesn't help that argument either because what does Jensen have to do with the "racial characteristics of the ancient Egyptians"? It's almost absurd that he was quoted; he is in no way qualified to answer that question. Taharqa 16:35, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
This is the entire point. More evidence suggests a migration from the south. It has also been addressed in updated research that the outdated technique of skull measurements to determine "race" is inadequate (especially concerning Africa).. To do that you would have to also cluster them (Europeans) with Ethiopians, Somalians, the Sudan, and tribes like the Beja. They are all considered indigenous to Africa and referred to as "Nilotic Continuity" according to Frank Yurco and others.. Frank Yurco, "An Egyptological Review" in Mary R. Lefkowitz and Guy MacLean Rogers, eds. Black Athena Revisited. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 1996. p. 62-100
There is no sufficient archaeological evidence to suggest a mass migration from the North, as can be seen from the Badari culture, the predecessor of the Egyptians. Also, studies by S. Keita of Badarian cranium and under close comparison suggests more affinities with East African Teita and tropical Africa than anything else. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/badari.pdf
Also, it's important to note that evidence suggests the Sahara wasn't always a desert and at the end of the Ice Age between 8000 BC to 6000 BC, it was habitable, as can be seen on rock paintings from around that time. http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/~e118/Fezzan/fezzan_palaeoclim.html
These stereotypical notions of "European skulls" in native Africa are outdated and have been highly criticized.
Keita writes: "In general, this restricted view presents all tropical Africans with narrower noses and faces as being related to or descended from external, ultimately non-African peoples. However, narrow-faced, narrow-nosed populations have long been resident in Saharo-tropical Africa... and their origin need not be sought elsewhere. These traits are also indigenous. The variability in tropical Africa is expectedly naturally high. Given their longstanding presence, narrow noses and faces cannot be deemed `non-African.'" (S.O.Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993), page 134)
It is also important to note minor differences between the Northern populations and Southern populations of Egypt. Upper Egyptian crania had more affinities with the tropical African series. S.O.Y. Keita Journal of Human Evolution, 2000 Sep; 39(3): 269-88. Department of Surgery, Howard University Hospital, Washington, DC
Also, old kingdom Giza skulls had more affinities with Nubians than Europeans.
"Cephalometric work on Old and New Kingdom remains demonstrates variability in the ancient period, as noted in observations by Harris and Weeks (1973:123) of a Seventeenth Dynasty pharoah:
His entire facial complex, in fact, is so different from other pharaohs (it is closest to that of his son Ahmose) that he could be fitted more easily into the series of Nubian and Old Kingdom Giza skulls than into that of later Egyptian kings. Various scholars in the past have proposed a Nubian-that is, non-Egyptian-origin for Seqenenre and his family, and his facial features suggest this might indeed be true.
MacGaffey (1966) comments on variation in ancient Egyptian portraiture. 'Negroid' and 'Egyptian' were not mutually exclusive" [see Petrie, (19061, plate xix.]
"Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North. See Bruce G. Trigger, "The Rise of Civilization in Egypt," Cambridge History of Africa (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 1982), vol I, pp 489-90; S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54."
The full article in its context: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Nilotic_peoples
It seems people post what ever they want on wikipedia, I'm giving you mainstream and up to date scholarship on this very issue. Until you define "Black African" you have no case to judge weather or not the ancient Egyptians were "Black African" or not. As to play with words at its very literal meaning, if the ancients who first migrated to Egypt were indigenously African and from the south, then it certainly wouldn't be illogical to believe that they were "Black Africans" who maybe later were subject to invasions, etc (which explains the foreign DNA lineages of the Moderns), yet remained uniquely African also as can be seen in the mtDNA study I provided. I still don't see how some quotes from a psychologist and a comparative DNA chart of modern populations pleads the case that the Original Egyptians weren't just as African as any other African. Taharqa 21:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The "skin color" section reflects bias imo, and doesn't take into consideration that the original inhabitants of Egypt originated from some where south of Egypt and didn't settle until after the Ice Age, which is reflected in mainstream archeology/Egyptology and all over this page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Nilotic_peoples
Taharqa
22:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
^Exactly, and there are no sources for these opinions on the Skin Color and Genetics sections. None.. He quotes a psychologist (A psychologist for crying out loud!) for the genetics part, and shows a modern day skin color map with an accompanying opinion. As for your question on if the mummies will clump closer to sub-saharan Africans, well obviously, that's what the mtDNA study I posted would seem to say as they have a common ancestor from East Africa. And if you don't know where the Egyptians who started the classical civilization came from look up the Badari culture. Everyone knows, if you believe that they were "dark or light skinned" that they came from the south and the Sahara, and their skulls, even under old racial classification were considered "Tropical African". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badarian Taharqa 23:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I did that.. Thank you for keeping it fair and balanced! That was my only issue, and thanx for cleaning up my edits. Taharqa 01:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
what's the deal with the Origin of the Nilotic peoples? How accurate is that term anyway? Someone is trying to push a heavy afrocentric agenda with that fork, it's written like a high school paper. 207.195.246.86 17:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Are you serious? Read the article boy.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Nilotic_peoples
^Nothing Afrocentric about it, Nilotic refers to the indigenous people of the Nile valley. It's a way to avoid racial terms since these people are all native to North/East Africa and outdated racism has only confused our perception of these people in the past, by calling them "Caucasoid, Negroid, or Medit. They are all native Africans, Ethiopians, Ancient Egyptians, Nubians, Beja, etc, are all native to the area. Cut the racist crap, If I'm afrocentric then you're racist, so I'll accept that. Taharqa 17:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Egypt in Africa, 1996, pp. 23-24
Professor S.O.Y. Keita Department of Biological Anthropology Oxford University
Professor A. J. Boyce University Reader in Human Population Oxford University
What was the primary geographical source for the peopling of the Egyptian Nile Valley? Were the creators of the fundamental culture of southern predynastic Egypt—which led to the dynastic culture—migrants and colonists from Europe or the Near East? Or were they predominantly African variant populations?
These questions can be addressed using data from studies of biology and culture, and evolutionary interpretive models. Archaeological and linguistic data indicate an origin in Africa. Biological data from living Egyptians and from skeletons of ancient Egyptians may also shed light on these questions. It is important to keep in mind the long presence of humans in Africa, and that there should be a great range of biological variation in indigenous "authentic" Africans.
Scientists have been studying remains from the Egyptian Nile Valley for years. Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans.
Another source of skeletal data is limb proportions, which generally vary with different climatic belts. In general, the early Nile Valley remains have the proportions of more tropical populations, which is noteworthy since Egypt is not in the tropics. This suggests that the Egyptian Nile Valley was not primarily settled by cold-adapted peoples, such as Europeans.
Art objects are not generally used by biological anthropologists. They are suspect as data and their interpretation highly dependent on stereotyped thinking. However, because art has often been used to comment on the physiognomies of ancient Egyptians, a few remarks are in order. A review of literature and the sculpture indicates characteristics that also can be found in the Horn of (East) Africa (see, e.g., Petrie 1939; Drake 1987; Keita 1993). Old and Middle Kingdom statuary shows a range of characteristics; many, if not most, individuals depicted in the art have variations on the narrow-nosed, narrow-faced morphology also seen in various East Africans. This East African anatomy, once seen as being the result of a mixture of different "races," is better understood as being part of the range of indigenous African variation.
The descriptions and terms of ancient Greek writers have sometimes been used to comment on Egyptian origins. This is problematic since the ancient writers were not doing population biology. However, we can examine one issue. The Greeks called all groups south of Egypt "Ethiopians." Were the Egyptians more related to any of these "Ethiopians" than to the Greeks? As noted, cranial and limb studies have indicated greater similarity to Somalis, Kushites and Nubians, all "Ethiopians" in ancient Greek terms.
There are few studies of ancient DNA from Egyptian remains and none so far of southern predynastic skeletons. A study of 12th Dynasty DNA shows that the remains evaluated had multiple lines of descent, including not surprisingly some from "sub-Saharan" Africa (Paabo and Di Rienzo 1993). The other lineages were not identified, but may be African in origin. More work is needed. In the future, early remains from the Nile Valley and the rest of Africa will have to be studied in this manner in order to establish the early baseline range of genetic variation of all Africa. The data are important to avoid stereotyped ideas about the DNA of African peoples.
The information from the living Egyptian population may not be as useful because historical records indicate substantial immigration into Egypt over the last several millennia, and it seems to have been far greater from the Near East and Europe than from areas far south of Egypt. "Substantial immigration" can actually mean a relatively small number of people in terms of population genetics theory. It has been determined that an average migration rate of one percent per generation into a region could result in a great change of the original gene frequencies in only several thousand years. (This assumes that all migrants marry natives and that all native-migrant offspring remain in the region.) It is obvious then that an ethnic group or nationality can change in average gene frequencies or physiognomy by intermarriage, unless social rules exclude the products of "mixed" unions from membership in the receiving group. More abstractly this means that geographically defined populations can undergo significant genetic change with a small percentage of steady assimilation of "foreign" genes. This is true even if natural selection does not favor the genes (and does not eliminate them).
Examples of regions that have biologically absorbed genetically different immigrants are Sicily, Portugal, and Greece, where the frequencies of various genetic markers (and historical records) indicate sub-Saharan and supra-Saharan African migrants.
This scenario is different from one in which a different population replaces another via colonization. Native Egyptians were variable. Foreigners added to this variability.
The genetic data on the recent Egyptian population is fairly sparse. There has not been systematic research on large samples from the numerous regions of Egypt. Taken collectively, the results of various analyses suggest that modern Egyptians have ties with various African regions, as well as with Near Easterners and Europeans. Egyptian gene frequencies are between those of Europeans and some sub-Saharan Africans. This is not surprising. The studies have used various kinds of data: standard blood groups and proteins, mitochondrial DNA, and the Y chromosome. The gene frequencies and variants of the "original" population, or of one of early high density, cannot be deduced without a theoretical model based on archaeological and "historical" data, including the aforementioned DNA from ancient skeletons. (It must be noted that it is not yet clear how useful ancient DNA will be in most historical genetic research.) It is not clear to what degree certain genetic systems usually interpreted as non-African may in fact be native to Africa. Much depends on how "African" is defined and the model of interpretation.
The various genetic studies usually suffer from what is called categorical thinking, specifically, racial thinking. Many investigators still think of "African" in a stereotyped, nonscientific (nonevolutionary) fashion, not acknowledging a range of genetic variants or traits as equally African. The definition of "African" that would be most appropriate should encompass variants that arose in Africa. Given that this is not the orientation of many scholars, who work from outmoded racial perspectives, the presence of "stereotypical" African genes so far from the "African heartland" is noteworthy. These genes have always been in the valley in any reasonable interpretation of the data. As a team of Egyptian geneticists stated recently, "During this long history and besides these Asiatic influences, Egypt maintained its African identity . . ." (Mahmoud et al. 1987). This statement is even more true in a wider evolutionary interpretation, since some of the "Asian" genes may be African in origin. Modern data and improved theoretical approaches extend and validate this conclusion.
In summary, various kinds of data and the evolutionary approach indicate that the Nile Valley populations had greater ties with other African populations in the early ancient period. Early Nile Valley populations were primarily coextensive with indigenous African populations. Linguistic and archaeological data provide key supporting evidence for a primarily African origin.
References Cited:
Angel, J. L., and J. O. Kelley, Description and comparison of the skeleton. In The Wadi Kubbaniya Skeleton: A Late Paleolithic Burial from Southern Egypt. E Wendorf and R. Schild. pp. 53-70. Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press. 1986
Brauer, G., and K. Rimbach, Late archaic and modern Homo sapiens from Europe, Africa, and Southwest Asia: Craniometric comparisons and phylogenetic implications, Journal of Human Evolution 19:789-807. 1990
Drake, St. C., Black Folk Here and There, vol 1. Los Angeles: University of California. 1987
Keita, S.O.Y., Studies and comments on ancient Egyptian biological relationships. History in Africa 20:129-154. 1993
Mahmoud, L. et. al, Human blood groups in Dakhlaya. Egypt. Annah of Human Biology. 14(6):487-493. 1987
Paabo, S., and A. Di Rienzo, A molecular approach to the study of Egyptian history. In Biological Anthropology and the Study of Ancient Egypt. V. Davies and R. Walker, eds. pp. 86-90. London: British Museum Press. 1993
Petrie, W.M., F. The Making of Egypt. London: Sheldon Press. 1984
Thoma, A., Morphology and affinities of the Nazlet Khaterman. Journal of Human Evolution 13:287-296. 1984
^^End of debate, any person with a half of a brain can sit here and tell that the Egyptians weren't white. The real argument is how "black" they were and if it was black enough to be considered 3/5 of a human being in 18th Century America. I think so, seeing as how it was a diverse mix of different African populations from its inception.
Taharqa
06:54, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The Egyptians were not "mixed". They were indigenous Africans who migrated from the south and south/west from near the Sahara and the Sudan, this is the most widely accepted theory. The theory of "Mesopotamian" admixture has since been discredited by the mainstream. Dynastic Race Theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynastic_Race_Theory
These skull measurements that people cite have since been strongly challenged, as early Egyptian crania had more similarities with other Africans be it North or East Africans than Europeans. That wouldn't even make sense (that they have European crania) unless Europeans invaded Africa, which they did not until the Greek and Roman eras. 85% of genetic variance happens with in localized populations and natural selection pressures are causes for variation. It is of my opinion that these people, prior to foreign admixture, looked no different than any other Africans. As far as recent geographical ancestry, both Berber and Egyptians have traces of more ancient (yet recent evolution wise) East African ancestry, which is expected..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people#Genotype_by_region http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14748828
Also, the way they depicted themselves is overrated to say the least. They drew them selves red and women yellow, what race is literally red and yellow? These were only to make a distinction of nationality. People are hypocrites, first Eurocentrics argue that the Egyptians didn't see race the same as we do, then use those pictures as an argument that Egyptians saw themselves as a different "race". This simply comes from a misunderstanding of African culture. Ethiopians draw themselves blue sometimes and other Africans black. Some west Africans draw themselves very light brownish yellow to differentiate them selves. And all in all, most red people in the world live in Africa, and are just as authentically African, or "Black" (since no one is literally Black) as any other Africans. These are some of the people modern day Egyptians can trace their mtDNA to.. http://www.joshuaproject.net/profiles/photos/p110051.jpg
^^This Eritrean woman looks red to me, and more authentically African or "Black" than 80% of African Americans.
I don't see why people choose to pick on outdated radical Afrocentrism instead of arguing the facts, that these people were native to Africa, and migrated from the south and southwest. Since terms like Negroid and Caucasoid are obsolete in Anthropology, especially concerning Africa's diversity, the only question left is were these Africans dark skinned or light skinned? Seeing as how they (Egyptians) have a recent common ancestor in East Africa, 5,000 years ago, before any significant foreign admixture, I'd be inclined to believe that they looked a lot closer to their African counterparts in East Africa and the Nile Valley. Frank Yurco, Egyptologist, Affirms that the Egyptians were closest ethnically to the Nubians out of any of the other foreigners. And if the Nubians were artistically and stereotypically portrayed as jet-black, what would that tell you about their relationship with the Egyptians? Even to take those wall pictures literally, one would have to admit that at least they thought of themselves as the second darkest race in the ancient world. Taharqa 17:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
There is no way that people will ever come to common terms on this article because everybody thinks that they're right, and that they can over rule the sources with weak arguments that seem as if they were written by a child. All of my edits keep getting changed around and reworded in favor of Eurocentrism. Not to mention that people are deleting entire sections just because they have no arguments to refute them. Too many racists on the internet in general, if anyone has an opposing view to a Eurocentric one it's automatically deemed "Afrocentric" when more than likely it just reflects the truth. Radical Afrocentrism is saying that the greeks were black, the first Asians were black, blacks are Gods, etc. Now that's nonsense, but what is not nonsense is that the Egyptians were native Africans from Africa, and weren't subject to serious foreign influence for the first 1,000 years. But no one is going to post that no matter how many peer reviewed studies I post from different mainstream scientists and Egyptologists. Too much of a political agenda on here. Answers.com has this very same article and it is perfect, no bias what so ever and they come at it from all angles, including genetics. This article is pure crap and I request a deletion. Taharqa 18:51, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Cavalli-Sforza and Diop and Jensen. Their projects are heavily criticized by mainstream scientists. I'm going to add more mainstream sources, as this article is getting to polarized in the Genetics section. My opinion is that sources such as Diop and Jensen are too fringe/radical in their Afrocentrist and Eurocentrist views to get such attention over mainstream science. Wikipedia:NPOV backs me up on this, as this could be considered giving undue weight to the extreme positions rather than the most weight to the mainstream,m and only some mention of extreme views. USE GOOGLE SCHOLAR! Find more modern, more mainstream sources. That's what I'll be doing, as I have a couple minutes to spare at work.-- Urthogie 03:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The paragraph accusing the HGDP of "cultural insensitivity, neocolonialism, and biopiracy" is Original Research, meaning it introduces an opinion unrelated to the discussion of the genetics of ancient egypt. This quote is appropriate for the page on the HGDP, but not for this page.-- Urthogie 03:23, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Recent work on skeletons and DNA suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North. See Bruce G. Trigger, "The Rise of Civilization in Egypt," Cambridge History of Africa (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press, 1982), vol I, pp 489-90; S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54."
The meaning of skin color and race are supposed to be covered in the Background: Race section. Please don't get the article muddled in definitions in the middle, people. Thanks, -- Urthogie 03:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
« The evidence suggests, it would appear, Saharan to mountainous North Africa was inhabited from an early date by quite diverse populations, some of which in modern popular perception would be 'white' "European" in appearance, some intermediate and some "black African." The argument about what 18th century Americans would percieve as to these ancient populations race is modern American race politics, not science. It should be discussed under such articles, not loaded on the backs of long dead Egyptians, whether "white" middle or otherwise. collounsbury 13:37, 24 February 2007 (UTC). » Collounsbury, you are making very strange affirmations. You are speaking about Africa being peopled from an early date by populations we would call « in modern popular perception (…) ‘white’ « European » in appearance ». « in appearance ». Are you not so sure? Please document your affirmations. The European type, called also Caucasoid is not first of all indigenous to Africa. Africa being totally peopled by Black people. Whites in Africa are invaders. Secondly, this European type reached continental Europe from central Russia during the second millennium BC. They entered Egypt during the same millennium, corresponding to the New Kingdom. They are know as the « people of the see ». The Semites entered Egypt before the Indo-European speaking people. It was during the second intermediary period. Actually, you are already contaminated by the modern racist ideology you are criticizing. It is the one which fabricated the white man of early Egypt! The ancestors of the modern Europeans and Asians knew a black Egypt, and they spoke about it. The Egyptians did not see themselves otherwise than black people (kmt + rmT). But you are going to say: « They are brown Egyptians ». You are right. Up to now, they are brown Black people. It is not a contradiction. The black race covers a large range of colors. Besides, the melanin test done by Cheikh Anta Diop on mummies showed that the ancient Egyptians had a rate of melanin incompatible with an idea of a white skin. Cheikh Anta Diop has not yet been contradicted on this point. I spoke about it to Urtogie in my past interventions. He will remember. If you know any counter-proof, please bring it forward. To finish, I agree with you that we have to do science, not ideology. Many Europeans have a problem, a psychological one as Cheikh Anta Diop put it in 1974 at the Cairo Conference on the peopling of ancient Egypt and the decipherment of the Meroitic scripts. Because of their education marked by a racist background, these White people, and among them well trained scholars, are unable of recognizing Egypt as a Black civilization. They became impermeable to proves against a so called « white » or « mix-race » society. It is time to move forward without them. Thus, we can reshuffle this article following the arguments given by Taharqa. Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 195.110.156.38 16:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
The article is heavily biased right now with obvious racist views that it doesn't even make sense any more. I read that Nubian aren't black and that Ethiopians have strong Caucasian admixture. Nubians are about the blackest people you will find, and Ethiopian look the way they do because of their environment. Mountainous, that is why Somalis look so different than Ethiopians, Mountains make you lighter, straighter hair, longer nose, but not 'mixed' with caucasian necesaarily. By that logic native americans with flat noses and dark skin are black.
Further I see the silly equation of negroid with blackness. Negros are only one type of blacks, like Germanic is only one type of white. With all likely hood the Egyptian had dark brown/black skin as we see in their painting. They weren't as black as the Nubians but they obviously had brown skin. They obviously weren't white cause we syrian and the egyptian is nowhere near him in skin color. The Egyptians weren't Bantus for sure, Bantus may not have even existed then, they most likely were like the Nubians in physical features but lighter cause they lived further North. We know as a fact that Egypt gets to 130 degrees hot on average in the summer, so I just can't fairly argue that they were caucasian cause it doesn't make sense. They would get sunburn everyday. They would have looked like Nubians but lighter cause they have similar climates and terrian just nubia is further south. We know in Egyptology that ancient Egyptians came from the South anyways because it was a migration pattern. To argue that they are even part causian, you have to believe thaat man after leaving africa and going all the way to persia came back and displaced the black who settled in egypt in large enough numbers (millions) to change the populations characteristics. Did this happen? Yes it did, but not likely until the new kingdom or perhaps the middle. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.138.142 ( talk) 21:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC).
^What is your point? That just gives fuel to the argument that the original Egyptians were "Black African" since negroid is a misnomer and you accept the extreme variation in African phenotypes (like Elongated East Africans like the Tutsi, so-called "Capoids" in south Africa, Senegalese people who lack Prognathism, and the lighter skinned Berbers, but that can be from admixture, look at the Taureg). Obviously these people were not "Caucasoid" or native to Europe, or even native to the middle east. They were native to Africa. Seeing as how the only light skinned inhabitants of North Africa are all either foreign or mixed (Berbers, and this is confirmed, look up "origin of the Berbers"), what do you assume they were before the admixture and foreign occupation? Not to mention so many "dark skinned Africans" still live in and are indigenous to North Africa. It is extremely silly to me that North/Western European Caucasians even argue over Egypt, this is between the various ethnic Africans and maybe middle eastern people have some pull to join the debate, but I never understood why Anglos argue this so passionately. The debate is "how black" were they, not "how white".. What do white people have to do with this? I'm tired of people brain washing these kids, wikipedia step your game up and just tell the truth!! You're not sure if they were predominantly dark skinned or light skinned (given Africa's climate I doubt that) but they definitely weren't "White Anglo-Saxon" and even today modern Semite Egyptians (who are right under berbers) cluster closer to other Africans (yes, sub-saharans too) than Anglos! tell the kids that! I dare you.
Taharqa
20:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
To: Race and ancient Egypt. Why? Because "Racial characteristics" is not a good title-- it suggests that such "racial" characteristics truly exist, a sentiment most anthropologists would disagree with.-- Urthogie 00:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Quick question on that pigment map, What the Hell does it have to do with the "ANCIENT" Egyptians. As it has been mentioned during 600-700A.D. Egypt was invaded by Arabs and people of lighter complexions that were mixed with the Native Black Africans of that region. I second that comment about to post above whites have nothing to do with this argument. 74.128.200.135 03:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
False, the skin map only tells us what the indigenous people look like now, as far as skin color goes. I guess it tries to estimate what skin colors a particular region would produce, given the nature of its "current" indigenous population, they took samples from live modern indigenous populations, not the ancients Egyptians. Just look at the Beja who inhabit the same region and has for thousands of years, almost unaffected by Arab invasions. http://www.4egypt.info/images/bejakids.jpg
Not to mention that the classic Egyptians did not adapt fully in the land mass that we call Egypt, it is thought instead that they migrated some time after the start of the Neolithic from some where south and south/west, basically closer to the equator than any northern populations. Taharqa 17:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I can and have provided sources for everything that I say.. Read carfully, this is a quote from the biggest Afrocentric critic of all time, you know, the one who wrote "Not Out Of Africa"..
The Egyptians didn't adapt to Egyptian climate, this is "mainstream" opinion, not just mine.
Saharan-Sudanic inheritance of Nile Valley settlers. Data on the peopling of the Nile Valley do not appear to support earlier historical notions of an initial wave of Caucasoid invaders entering from the North to introduce civilization. Mainstream data shows gradual movement and peopling from the south- the Saharan zone and associated parts of the Sudanic region, fusing with indigenous Nilotic elements already in place, leading into the development of the well-known Egyptian kingdoms, not sweeping insertions from the Mediterranean, Mesopotamia or elsewhere.(AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 83:35-48 (1990)
[3] See Wiki article
Predynastic Egypt for the now discounted
Dynastic Race Theory. As to the Saharan movement even Afrocentric critics such as Mary Lefkowitz note:
I removed this quote from the demographics section..
"This does not indicate what race the Egyptians were, but if true, it would disprove both the Dynastic Race Theory and the Afrocentric theory of Ancient Egypt (which both argue that Egyptians used to look more like sub-saharan Africans before demographic effects from Mesopotamia effected the region):"
^First of all, it does refute the Dynastic Race theory, but anyone familiar with "afrocentric claims" knows that this is not what the afrocentrics argue. The argument is that first of all, there was no true brick wall barrier between sub-saharan Africa and the rest of Africa, that's a racist term(sub-saharan).. Look up saharan pump theory, there was no barrier during these migrations to Egypt. Secondly, the main argument is that there is no definitive sub-saharan look. A lot of Egyptian cranial studies have clustered the Egyptians closer to Somalis. This is adaptation to micro-climates according to C. Loring Brace. That these drier regions produce slimmer features, but these people are still at the same latitude of those in West Africa. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/brace.pdf
Keita's argument..
Keita writes: "In general, this restricted view presents all tropical Africans with narrower noses and faces as being related to or descended from external, ultimately non-African peoples. However, narrow-faced, narrow-nosed populations have long been resident in Saharo-tropical Africa... and their origin need not be sought elsewhere. These traits are also indigenous. The variability intropical Africa is expectedly naturally high. Given their longstanding presence, narrow noses and faces cannot be deemed `non-African.'" Afrocentrics argue a full, biologically African Egypt that has nothing to do with outside influence, and that most likely they had darker complexions and more genetic affinities with other localized populations on the Nile Valley Taharqa 17:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
^First of all, you'd have to define "Afrocentric", Bernal claims not to be Afrocentric, yet he's labeled one in this article. Second, did you read Keita's argument? 3rd, you provide a source, I'm not the one making this baseless claim and speaking for "all" Afrocentrics in academia. I also removed some obscure claim about Egyptians not looking "sub-saharan" because of the sahara, even though I provided a source claiming that the Sahara was not a barrier, you people decide to keep the one with out a source for what ever biased reason, so I removed the un-cited opinion of some editor who's using desperate arguments to confuse people of the real issue here.
Taharqa
18:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
^Thank you! I'm actually surprised, thought that you were being biased, but that's very reasonable of you. Commendable..
Taharqa
18:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
I removed this from the genetics section.
"A 2005 study[10] of ancient Egyptian craniofacial characteristic published in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology found that:
The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World.
The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World."
^^I'm not exactly sure what this has to do with genetic research on the origins of the ancient egyptians, I'd be glad if someone can explain. Maybe this should be put in a different section?
Taharqa
01:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^Alright, great.. I added another study to it then as well, that sheds relevant light on this situation.. Keita found that early predynastic crania had more affinities with Tropical Africans than Europeans, also emphasizing that any perceived population shift isn't due to migration into Egypt.
Taharqa
02:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^I don't know about all of that, that actually contradicts the studies. Mesopotamian influence is considered "limited".. I agree that the Egyptians were "probably" various shades of brown, but that's due to the variation in Africa more so then due to admixture. At least that's the common consensus among most scholars recently.
Taharqa 02:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^The influence of the Mesopotamians is actually an old theory that's been debunked basically. But yea, more people just point to the variation in Africa as an explanation for different features and previously perceived population shift.
Oh, and I removed the last paragraph from the intro that stated something about mainstream consensus being that "a small minority" looked like what we'd call black today. Not true, never heard that argument. Anthropologists try and eliminate racial stereotypes if anything.
As far as the language section, what does KM.t meaning "something black" have to do with racial characteristics?
Taharqa 03:15, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
1. I'd like you to quote one shlolar who says that there was Mesopotamian influence, that is not in any of the sources, none. They all said maybe some, but the majority was indigenous.
2. We're not concerned with how some people may view ancient Egyptians. The fact is, Anthropologists don't say the Egyptians were different shades of brown, and some looked like this "race" and some looked like that race". Quote someone who says that. That is your opinion honestly, none of the sources say that.
3. The dynastic race theory is practically debunked sir.
"The Dynastic Race Theory is no longer the dominant thesis in the field of Predyanstic Archaeology, and has been largely replaced by the theory that Egypt was a Hydraulic empire, on the grounds that such contacts are much older than the Naqada II period," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynastic_Race_Theory
4. If you had read the sources, the changes in the crania measurements were due to variation inside of Africa, not outside! These people were just different kind of Africans, the debate is weather all Africans can be considered black, that's what people are still holding on to.
I have to remove this because it supports nothing in this article and it attacks Diop when Diop was in no way proven wrong, Eurocentrics were. We're still debating over skin color, but their origin isn't a big question any more. Please read the sources before you write these opinions, it's so contradictory. For someone to "look" middle eastern, you're speaking for people who don't believe in any specific racial look, specifically since Africans have different features, go back to my Keita quote, please.
I have to remove this, it's wrong..
The current mainstream scientific view is that Egyptians came in various shades of brown.(Not True, no one said that, it's your own inference) Based solely on their appearence, American society today would view many of the ancient Egyptians as "black" ( Maybe, maybe not, you're speaking hypothetically)--
others would be viewed as Middle Easterners(Hypothetical, this is unscientific, how do we know what they'd think?). However, Afrocentric scholars claim that dynastic Egypt was a primarily "black", African civilization, with most inhabitants being similar in appearence to other sub-Saharan African peoples(there is no definitive look in sub-saharan Africa. All of them don't have big lips and noses, go back to the Keita quote, this is unscientific and baseless).
Although the vast majority of Egyptologists and anthropologists today do not support the Afrocentrist view of ancient Egypt(What is the overall Afrocentric view"? Diop is dead, and he only claimed them to be "black" or Negroe which are old racial designations"), Afrocentric research by Cheikh Anta Diop definitely had a significant effect on Egyptology, debunking Eurocentrist theories of Egyptian history. There is also a seperate, but related debate, concerning the extent and effect of Mesopotamian migration into Egypt.(this is not a big debate, you're confusing the issue)
^This tells lies to confuse people, probably unintentional, but you speak for the majority of academia yet this is not reflected in the sources. Quote some of your sources who says any of that.
And for those who believe in race, this doesn't mean "mixed race" even if race were valid. How? There's no source for that. They'd all come from this branch.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africoid Taharqa 15:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
1. Can you please quote one of your sources, I've read through them and none of them say anything about them being "Mixed".. That's not true, quote them please, please do. I'm asking politely.
2. Again, call me Afrocentric if you want, which isn't an insult anyways, but none of your sources say anything about skin color neither does it sum up the mainstream view from any journal or poll or anything.
3. Call me an Afrocentric if you keep wanting to, but I've exposed your biased Eurocentrism earlier (that you call a mistake) already so that doesn't bother me. Besides the point though.
4. Since you're making the claim that there's a debate about the extant of "Mesopotamians" genetic influence that impacts demographics, you post the source, please. You have no source, the sources say that there was minimal demographic shift as a cause of outside migration, read the 2007 study. The conclusion was that "It seems more so to be indigenous", that's the mainstream view.
5. What article goes out of its way to say "mixed race"? How old is the article? Is that the mainstream view from qualified anthropologists? This isn't making any sense now. The sources contradict a mixed race theory, all of them. Your sources don't concern themselves with answering the question of race.
Urthogie, read Keita's quote, that says nothing about "mixed race", different sized crania does not = mixed race. And that study was from 1993, the dynastic race theory and misconceptions of race was more prevalent then. That's the variety of Africa, not racial admixture. Taharqa 20:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
6. Diop is dead, and you find a "qualified academic" Afrocentrist who claims that Egyptians were "Black Africans", even though there is no difference between a darker and lighter skinned African in the eyes of Afrocentrics because they all adapted in Africa, that's their more recent arguments. You provide the source since you're making the claim, it makes no sense that you put that burden on me. Also, no one says that they migrated from North Africa to North Africa, it says they most likely migrated from Sudanic and Saharan zones, so the Sahara or Sub-Sahara, that's more of a debate. Mesopotamian migration is debunked.
Taharqa
16:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^Okay, you stopped talking like a scientist a long time ago. What is a "Black person", what are they racially. How different were they from any other indigenous Africans who were dark? That makes no sense, anthropology doesn't agree with that. Again, read this.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africoid
And read this.
The Dynastic Race Theory is no longer the dominant thesis in the field of Predyanstic Archaeology, and has been largely replaced by the theory that Egypt was a Hydraulic empire, on the grounds that such contacts are much older than the Naqada II period,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynastic_Race_Theory
^Mainstream consensus!
Taharqa
16:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
And I'm not debating with you, just trying to stop unsourced opinions from getting into the article. Be objective, make this article scientific, don't litter it and confuse the issue with words like "Americans may view them as", or they were a "Mixed race", but I don't know what they were mixed with. Just keep it neutral and scientific. Oh, and Egyptologists don't study race.
I didn't ignore what you wrote, I'm having a hard time seeing what you're saying and it seems as if you're ignoring me. Africoid isn't debunked, how can an arbitrary racial category be debunked? Wow, anyways Negroid was a term used to describe so-called blacks, but given the variety in Africa, that classification has fallen apart. Caucasoid is also now obsolete and certain biases of the past have been exposed due to these racial categories. If you would please read what I posted I think it's obvious that Mesopotamia was not so much a factor in Ancient Egypt and we can stop talking about them as much. This is between the Africans so to speak. Just read what I posted, you respond so quick I know you didn't check this source. I can't go back and fourth when you're not even trying. My main point is this, we both agree then that the dynastic race theory is basically debunked, so little to no middle eastern genetic influence. Now we're arguing racial characteristics, a mixed race would have to belong to a separate race and no where do these people indicate what race the Egyptians are, let alone if they were mixed, this is the inquiry, should we even assign anyone, including them to any race? Are they Africoid? Caucasoid(that word is obsolete, so no)? Those broad statements that were in the intro just didn't touch on anything relevant to this conversation and confuses the issue, and is not backed by the sources, especially the 2007 study. It would contradict that study, no one qualified argues for a "Mixed" society from onset, that used to be the argument, that's what the dynastic race theory is Taharqa 16:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Original research introduces an analysis, synthesis, explanation, or interpretation of published facts, opinions, or arguments without attributing that analysis, synthesis, explanation, or interpretation to a reliable source who has published the material in relation to the topic of the article.
This is precisely what you're doing. You're analyzing the sources and saying that "mixed-race" is false. You aren't allowed to do this, because you aren't a Wikipedia:Reliable source. It's against Wikipedia policy, so I'm reverting you. Please read the policy page Wikipedia:Attribution.-- Urthogie 17:09, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
And there is no "original research" on my part, I've cited independent researchers and anthropologists who are all renowned, nor did I give any of my opinions, let the data speak. I don't speak for the mainstream, especially when this isn't mainstream view.
^The point of the whole matter is choice of words. You wrote "Mainstream consensus", that isn't mainstream consensus, mainstream consensus is that the dynastic race theory is debunked and that Egypt was indigenous. None of your sources study anything about Egypt's racial affinities nor draw precise conclusions that can be attributed to mainstream anthropology. I can give you a source that said they were all "black", from a scientist, two or three, but this doesn't make it a mainstream view. You're trying to confuse the world with your nonsensical personal inferences that don't reflect the sources, which isn't right. You've already made numerous mistakes, now I guess you're using ad hominems and trying to save face. Who are you to speak for the mainstream and why can't you give me a quote from one of those sources that backs up a mixed race theory? I've read and there's no racial research done nor does it sum up mainstream opinion. Taharqa 17:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
1. No where do the sources indicate a "gesalt of mesopotamian and north african ethnicities"
Not true..
2. "Black African" isn't a race, Diop is dead, and this isn't what Afrocentrics argue. Provide a source that says otherwise, that "all afrocentrics" fall into this category, or even most.
3. No one says what they were mixed with and no anthropologist in "today's 2007" mainstream view believe that these people were "mixed", provide a source for that, otherwise you're hurting the integrity of the article and putting in sourceless opinions and material. Especially the last paragraph.
Taharqa
17:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Not true in updated scholarship.
We're talking about Egypt's onset and actual research, not from looking at portraits, or 2 or 3 people's opinions. The demographics section says nothing about being mixed with Mesopotamian, nor do the intro sources, quote where you saw that please. Mainstream view = more than 2 people agree, someone that is qualified enough to speak for the majority of the field. Not some obscure person making a claim, choose your words carefully please, this is not mainstream view. Taharqa 17:32, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
1. Where do anthropologists and scientists say that the original egyptians were different shades of brown? 2. Where does it say that they were mixed with Meso-middle eastern? I think this is just what you want people to think honestly, I don't know why you insist on putting up unsourced material.
Taharqa
17:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I think I see the source of our disagreement. You're right to say that the term "gestalt" is too controversial, as it might have been a very small effect from migration. I'm going to adjust this, tell me what you think.-- Urthogie 17:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
For now, I don't have that big of a problem with what you wrote, besides the last paragraph.. About them being various shades of brown and bringing up a dead scholar from 50 years ago to disagree with, and using a broad term like "Black African" which has no scientific basis and means different things to different people. Also this paragraph was not sourced and can hurt the article and reputation of diop when this is still in debate. Also Egyptologists aren't qualified to determine the race of the Egyptians, only Bio-Anthropologists can tell us that so that's suspect too, but I'll lay off that for now.
Taharqa
17:54, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^Because it isn't a proven fact and has no source, no one thinks or takes issue with that. A lot of so-called black people have different shades and so do a lot of middle easterners. But we never seen an ancient egyptian nor have we done melanin tests. Well Diop did, but let's leave that out.
^How about if you don't know much about Afrocentrism, just leave it out until someone qualified, with a source can post the view from Afrocentrism and what Diop was trying to get across? And I put a lack of importance banner above the section because Egyptologists aren't concerned with race. Their opinions on race is no more valid than ours. I know that you know the definitions but I'll post them for others so they see what I mean.
Egyptology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptology
Anthropology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropology Taharqa 18:07, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^How is this a fact? Name one anthropologist who has studied Egyptian remains that agrees with that? The only way to possibly know is through a skin dosage test. You're just talking now, again, this has no source. This is your personal inference and maybe the view of one or two Egyptologists, but that's just an opinion not based on science. Although I do agree somewhat with how you reworded things, I just have a problem with opinions being displayed as facts. I won't blank it though, I simply added a "citation needed" stamp. Oh, and I appreciate your neutrality, even though at first it seemed like some sort of bias but I just see that you're trying to understand different view points and act accordingly. Can't fault you for that. Taharqa 18:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^Alright, Cool.. Taharqa 20:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Alk:Ancient_Egypt_and_race&action=edit
^This isn't accessable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ancient_Egypt_and_race#Mixed_race
^And this is totally misrepresented as it does not support "mix-race", in fact, it's illusive and tells us nothing. Not to mention that it's an old study from 14 years ago, not to say it isn't valid, but perceptions of things were slightly different then anyways. Take the abstract with in its full context.
ABSTRACT The biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians were tested against their neighbors and selected prehistoric groups as well as against samples representing the major geographic population clusters of the world. Two dozen craniofacial measurements were taken on each indi- vidual used. The raw measurements were converted into C scores and used to produce Euclidean distance dendrograms. The measurements were prin- cipally of adaptively trivial traits that display patterns of regional similar- ities based solely on genetic relationships. The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities in trivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southward through Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selec- tive forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur. An assessment of "race" is as useless as it is impossible. Neither clines nor clusters alone suffice to deal with the biological nature of a widely distributed population. Both must be used. We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either inva- sions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well. o1993 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
I'm still not satisfied with your sources and feel that you're unintentionally misrepresenting them. This study has nothing to do with skin shades or racial admixture, and doesn't tell us anything of interest..
^Source#4 is this one
Source#5 doesn't even mention a mixed race, the words race and Egypt were simply highlighted. No mention of "mix race", just Egyptian.
Source#6 Is simply about race as a social construct and mentions "modern" Egypt and the case of Mostafa Hefny who considers himself "black". They make no mention of Ancient Egypt and these people are not Egyptologists or Anthropologists, it has nothing to do with the topic at all.
Source#7 Is just a critique of Afrocentrism, makes no mention to shades of brown or "mixed race" of ancient Egypt. Who ever wrote this wasn't interested in Egyptology or Anthropology either, it's just a write up by a writer... I Seriously went through it all, I don't know what's going on but those sources truly didn't bring home the point that was trying to be made in no way. Let's just leave the "Mixed" stuff out for now, it's easier. Taharqa 21:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^What do they say about "Ancient" Egypt?
--
Urthogie
23:45, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie.. Source#7 has no page 133, there is no review from pages 89 - 212.
Source#5 page 42 indeed makes this claim, but take into consideration who the author is. Paul Johnson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Johnson_(writer)
^He is neither an Egyptologist nor an Anthropologist, you're sourcing writers. This is not mainstream view in Egyptological Anthropology or in academia. I'm a writer too, what difference does that make?
Again, what does source#6 "Race" say about the Ancients? Nothing I suppose? How is that a source for mainstream qualified opinion on "Ancient Egypt"? What do slaves have to do with anything? This articles needs a big clean up, there's a lot of sloppy and unqualified sources being presented to try and prove something that isn't supported by the data. Why would you say that, and then contradict the studies right below? Taharqa 00:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^Who were the slaves and what race were they? Were they a part of Ancient Egypt? And how does that reflect mainstream view of a mixed race Ancient Egypt? This isn't making sense anymore, come on Urgothie.
Urgothie, no it does not support that, just read it. And why are you posting non-Anthropologists and old website articles? You're searching too hard to find something that fits your beliefs. They mention that Egypt was a melting pot, which is obvious and tells us nothing of who the original people were. And I'm sorry, but there is no page 133 for the source on Afrocentrism, there just isn't. At least it isn't visible to anyone accept you. If I'm wrong, please feel free to post the quote, any short quote from that page that deals with Ancient Egypt and race Taharqa 00:25, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll search for the other page, but is one source truly fit to represent mainstream opinion? Especially when the studies disagree? What if I were to post an opposing mainstream view that says they weren't mixed? Could you accept that, or are we only relying on a historian that has the same racial concepts of the layman? Taharqa 00:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Let's end this right now then, these are actual qualified sources and updated studies. They agree that variety in early Egypt was not due to admixture, but suggests continuity just like the 2007 study suggests.
Continuity of Nile valley populations over extended periods
Some current dental studies of ancient Egyptians as a whole over the millenia show continuity between early racial or cultural types peopling Egypt, well into the dynastic period, and show that these peoples had a wide range of characteristics including Nubian, Saharan, Nilotic and Levantine. Such variability makes make rigid racial taxonomies, or selective highlighting, grouping and labeling as "Middle Eastern" or "Mediterranean" or sweeping genetic claims of outside influence problematic. [5] The issue of continuity with past Egyptian racial stocks has also been raised in older scholarship since the 1960s, most notably the case of the fellahin in Egypt, which are referenced as an indicator of a more ancient genetic strand associated with Negroid or Sudanic/Saharan influences. [6]
Some older studies also suggest continuity of racial stocks in Egypt. A British analysis of craniometric traits from several Egyptian predynastic gravesites showed a wide range of physical variability, making it difficult to establish a rigid taxonomy of races. However the same study compared craniometric traits found on the Egyptian samples, to samples from other areas such as Caanan and found limited matches with the predynastic crania. It thus concluded that at no time did any non-Egyptian group provide a significant change to the Egyptian gene pool for the length of the Pharaonic monarchy. As noted with the example of the fellahin above, the genetic or racial elements on the ground (whatever the unique mix of racial types that made up Egypt), at least in the early millenia of Egyptian civilization, were thus not significantly affected by any influx of distant outsiders from Mesopotamia, the Mediterranean or elsewhere. Such outsiders, like the well known Hyksos, were to appear in significant numbers on the scene much later, about 1000 years after Eygptian dynastic civilization had been established. ("Genetical Change in Ancient Egypt," Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, 1967). [7]
^If you know how to read anthropological jargon, then there's no need for the precise words "they weren't mixed race" to be written. This is a break down as to why they were not and the view from mainstream science, not some historian (not being rude).
Continuity extends into dynastic period of kingship and nation building This continuity holds into the early dynastic period, in that elements from the South, (a region closer to the Sahara and the Sudan), brought about the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt, ushering in the early Egyptian dynasties. This union is of monumental significance in Egyptian history, and was considered as such by the Egyptians themselves. It does not appear to be a crude tribal polity awaiting inspiration from Mediterranean or Near Eastern outsiders, as asserted by the now discredited Dynastic Race Theory. Union provided a stable umbrella that helped shape the creative and productive energies of their civilization for millennia to come. (Encyclopedia Britannica, 1984 ed. Egypt, History of," p. 464-65) [8]
Actually, source 3, or paragraph 2 says something about "whatever the mix of racial stocks were", they weren't affected by outside influence like the Medit or Meso-Middleeastern. So if there was a "Mix", it was between Africans. But other interpretations are that it wasn't so much of an admixture as it was population variation and continuity, as is reflected in the other sources. I just strongly feel that the Middle East or Mes-potamia needs to be tooken out of the equation unless the dynastic theory can revive its self.
Taharqa
00:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^Well at least this proves that Mesopotamia wasn't a factor. And continuity generally is another way of saying that they were basically the same people and were unchanged or not changed very much genetically through its civilization. No one from a scientific point of view will tell you that the Egyptians were "Mixed", so if you're going outside of science, then you're speaking socially, someone's social point of view. You ask someone else they'd say something different, that's why we rely on empirical data to answer these questions, for those who are considered authorities on the subject, which are Anthropologists, Archaeologists, and some Egyptologists. There really is no argument unless we can get some straight foward sources. And If anything you simply have to admit that the large majority is against any "outside" (Meso-Middle Eastern) contributions. So we should agree to leave Mesopotamia out of this unless we're to add other debunked theories from all sides also.
Taharqa
01:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Are you serious? Come on now, your sources are unworthy. None of them are Egyptologists, yet you claim that this is the view of "Mainstream Egyptology". And no one supports Mesopotamian influence if any at all, how many times do I have to direct you to the Dynastic Race theory page? And Keita says 1% over a "long period of time" causes a huge different, stop taking him out of context please. The conclusion was not that of a "Mixed race", but of genetic and cultural continuity of indigenous people, no mention of Mesopotamia. And the 2007 study concludes that it was mainly indigenous, with maybe limited migration from elsewhere, but she doesn't mention from where, especially Mesopotamia. Let's be rational here.
Taharqa
01:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^None of them are "Egyptologists" as you claim them, so you should have to prove that they are Mainstream Egyptologists or come from Egyptology and that they didn't just do research on it and wrote a paper. The section on "Race" has nothing to do with Egyptology. Neither does the Afrocentrism article, that's and Afrocentric critic. And the one written by the historian, is what it is, written research from a historian, but Paul Johnson is not an Egyptologist or part of the field. Prove otherwise please. Taharqa 01:55, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^Then stop claiming that "Egyptologists say this and say that, just say some mainstream scholars, then give another view. That's misrepresentation and not being neutral as studies from the actual qualified people in question, deny such claims.. Plus, no one mentions Mesopotamia except you. Taharqa 02:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^No it isn't, I've explained that, these are researchers and secondary sources relying on "primary sources".
Secondary sources are documents or people that summarize, analyze and/or interpret other material, usually primary source material. These are academics, journalists, and other researchers, and the papers and books they produce. A journalist's description of a traffic accident he did not witness, or the analysis and commentary of a president's speech, are secondary sources. Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources wherever possible. This means that we only publish the opinions of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves. Taharqa 02:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
1. The fact is that these people are not "Egyptologists nor do they specialize in it, yet you referr to them as "Egyptologists and not researchers.
2. 2 of your sources have nothing to do with answering the question of what race the Ancients were, especially the "Race" article.
3. You are simply just being stubborn you believe and choose to ignore the data, so you search high and low for old articles just to save face I guess so that you can be right in some way.
The real issue is this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words#Improving_weasel-worded_statements
I'll leave it at that, I can't go back and fourth when some one is just being stubborn or just doesn't know how to interpret data. And again, none of your sources say anything about Mesopotamia, they really don't, you really just need that in there for some reason, but whatever, go ahead and lie, I'm tired. Taharqa 02:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I had to change the description of the first study in the Crania section accordingly. It's a 1993 study, not from 2005 as it was previously stated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt_and_race#_note-10
Clines and clusters versus "Race:" a test in ancient Egypt and the Death on the Nile
http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/brace.pdf
C. Loring Brace, David P. Tracer, Lucia Allen Yaroch, John Robb, Kari Brandt and A. Russell Nelson. 1993. Clines and clusters versus "race:" A test in ancient Egypt and a case of a death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:26
^I just noticed that this same 1993 study was cited three different times. Wow.. That's weird. Taharqa 20:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
“The first dynasty was already a mix between Mesopotamians and Northern Africans. This is my view. Please don't misquote it.--Urthogie 17:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)”. Urthogie, I told you in the past that it is difficult to prove the claim that Mesopotamian Civilizations did have any influence at the birth of the Egyptian Civilization. I quoted a book published in 2007 which shows that Egypt was in advance in the line of history compared to Mesopotamian Civilizations. Besides, the Egyptian civilization is better known than the Mesopotamian civilizations, in such a way that it might be more convenient to explain Mesopotamia from an African Egyptian perspective than the contrary! These are the quotations: “The Egyptian history extends in a period of time of more than three thousands of years and – thanks to a written and monumental documentation which is surely the most rich of any other civilization of these times – can be studied, at least in the main lines, with much more accuracy (La storia egiziana si stende su un arco di tempo di oltre millenni – grazie a una documentazione scritta e monumentale che è certo la più ricca fra quelle di ogni altra civiltà di quei tempi – può essere tracciata, almeno nelle grande linee, con sufficiente sicurezza)” (La storia, 1. Dalla preistoria all’antico Egitto, Novara: Istituto Geografico De Agostini SpA, UTET, 2007, p. 621). Egypt inaugurates his first dynasty in 3185 (La storia, p. 733). In Mesopotamia, the first proto-dynastic period takes place in 2900-2800. “2900-2800. Proto-dynastic period I: it is a period of insufficient archaeological documentation (2900-2800. Periodo protodinastico I: è una fase di scarsa documentazione archeologica)” (Storia, p. 615). The same idea was already expressed by The Columbia Encyclopedia: “ The valley of the long river between the deserts, with the annual floods and deposits of life-giving silt and with its equable climate, was the seat of one of the oldest civilizations built by man into an organic whole – rivaled, indeed, only by the somewhat more obscure cultures of Mesopotamia. Grain was grown early in the valley of the Nile. The earliest known date in world history is the adoption of the calendar, which has been set at 4241 B.C.” ( William Bridgwater and Elizabeth J. Sherwood (Editors), “The Columbia Encyclopedia in one volume”, Morningside Heights, New York: Columbia University Press, 1950, second edition, p. 596). Urthogie, how do you explain the fact that the first Egyptian nome is in Nubia, in the south, but not in Mesopotamia or in Arabia, in the East? “Tз-Sti, Nubia, properly Ist nome of Upper Egypt; Styw Nubians” (Alan Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar. Being an Introduction to the Study of Hieroglyphs, Oxford: Griffith Institute, Ashmolean Museum, 2001, Third edition, p. 593) It is time, Urthogie, to do a small exercise. If Egypt received a migration from Mesopotamia, one would expect that the Egyptian culture keeps traces of it. Give the list of cultural element common to Egypt and Mesopotamia prior to invasions of Semitic People: language, art, science, customs.-- 195.110.156.38 22:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
^That's pretty much on point, but minor selective phenotype variation doesn't really matter in concern to "race", since selection happens all over Africa. I think that he's basically arguing that the state of Ancient Egypt wasn't a result of admixture, but these were all the same indigenous people from the predynastic onward, which is confirmed by the studies.
Taharqa
00:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^Not true, you simply have to understand how this variation works according to the field of Anthropology. Sub-Saharan Africans and Africans in general can't be confined to these old racial designations from 1993. This only showed who their skulls were similar to, this doesn't mean they had any relationship what so ever with those people genetically. Sub-saharans have similar skulls, it all varies. Read this if you can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ancient_Egypt_and_race#The_Geographical_Origins_and_Population_Relationships_of_Early_Ancient_Egyptians
Taharqa
00:53, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^So are you debunking my source basically? You're that stubborn? And who claims that the skulls changed all that much if any? Did you read the sources and the data? Interpretations are changing, not the Ancients. And Egypt is in no way "cool", it's much hotter than anywhere in Europe and the valley of the kings can reach 110 degrees. That's irrelevant though, really.
Taharqa
01:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
If the studies suggest continuity from the predynastic into the dynastic I'd be motivated to tell you that there's no difference between the two. And where does the source indicate significant Mesopotamian genetic input and influence? What are you reading?
In summary, various kinds of data and the evolutionary approach indicate that the Nile Valley populations had greater ties with other African populations in the early ancient period. Early Nile Valley populations were primarily coextensive with indigenous African populations. Linguistic and archaeological data provide key supporting evidence for a primarily African origin.
Doesn't even mention Mesopotamia.
Taharqa 01:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, first of all, this seems like original research.
"introduces an argument without citing a reliable source who has made that argument in relation to the topic of the article"
The sources don't support "Mesopotamian" influence in their genetic make up. They don't mention it.
books?hl=en&lr=&id=ROuqj_xIRMoC&oi=fnd&pg=PP9&sig=kYQT8VmrQ8rltrBBXSNxo3VynoM&dq=egypt+race#PRA2-PA4,M1
This right here. http://books.google.com/ ^This isn't a qualified source as it doesn't pertain to the subject at hand, "Ancient Egypt". Nor does it try and sum up any claim that Ancient Egypt was of "Mix race" and Mesopotamian admixture.
^Makes just one obscure reference to the Egyptians being of mixed race, yet they don't mention Mesopotamia.
And this source.
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=pFrm19cZhugC&oi=fnd&pg=PA213&sig=V7SsiWMtcbYrG1-xlp4urGnIAMQ
^Is but a critique on Afrocentrism and isn't in relation to the topic at hand, "Ancient Egypt and race".
Weasel words:
"Mainstream consensus" "Egyptologists"
Weasel words are words or phrases that seemingly support statements without attributing opinions to verifiable sources, lending them the force of authority without letting the reader decide whether the source of the opinion is reliable. If a statement can't stand on its own without weasel words, it lacks neutral point of view, and the lack of given sources also implies a verifiability issue. Either a source for the statement should be found, or the statement should be removed.
How are we to check up on the mainstream view of "Egyptologists", when no sources are cited? None of these people are Egyptologists, and Egyptologists are secondary sources in comparison to Anthropologists when we're to inquire about "race". And I can't emphasize enough that mesopotamia was not mentioned. Taharqa 03:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^I only removed what was unsourced and not supported by the article.. And the article was contradicting its self.. Added the brace study back.. And rearranged the words then.
From a demographic perspective, ancient Egypt is regarded by mainstream Egyptologists today as having primarily indigenous origins, and having experienced limited demographic effects from foreign influence. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/brace.pdf[4] "We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either inva- sions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well." Taharqa 03:39, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^This is a primary source.. Oh, and I changed the words a bit on this quote, and took out the "genetic shift part".
The degree of any demographic changes that may have occured between the pre-dynastic and dynastic periods are still debated in the scientific community.
^Genetics aren't the center of debate regarding that matter. This is a matter of physical anthropology, but other than that it looks cleaned up a bit better now. Taharqa 03:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
What do you think of my newest edits?-- Urthogie 03:59, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
it said something about Dynastic Egyptians not clustering with sub-saharans genetically and used the Brace study as a source, when brace makes no such claim. He says race couldn't be determined and wasn't concerned with genetics. He didn't test mummy dna or anything, just skulls. Other than that, article looks better. Yea, it looks better like this and takes into account other views, at the same time reflects the sources. Yea..
Taharqa
04:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
It looks real good now, one thing to consider though, is that cranial measurements don't indicated genetic relationships and that isn't what can be inferred from the sources. Everything is on point though.
Taharqa
04:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll try, You can do it too, but the shades of brown thing wasn't reflected in the brace study that was sourced, this is what he said about the populations and gave his opinion on skin color.
"the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selec- tive forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur." Taharqa 04:42, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^But that's considered original research, it's up to the reader to infer rather the regions around Egypt produced certain skin tones, or if the Ancients were bound by these selective pressures. The source makes no mention of these words. You can use Diop and Keita as a source if they say that. I truly have no idea of their skin color, in my humble opinion they weren't all blue-black and were various shades of brown, I do agree. It's just that I'd rather the reader make their own inference from the data and not what we think of how Egypt was Taharqa 04:56, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^Actually, Diop's melanine test indicated that they were "dark-skinned", I didn't want to bring that up. Diop didn't argue for "different shades of brown" at all, lol. Sorry, but that's kind of funny. You know what? Why don't you change it to something like, Egyptologists agree that the Egyptians were "probably" or "most-likely" different shades of brown given the fact that, that seems to be the nature of today's surrounding indigenous inhabitants, and the remaining indigenous inhabitants of Egypt.. I've read arguments similar to that before and the sources back that up when worded correctly.
Taharqa
05:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^It's not a more extreme view, it's a totally different one. He claims to have found that their level of skin pigmentation was to an extent that could not be found "among the white races". http://www.africawithin.com/diop/origin_egyptians.htm
He makes no such claim for "different shades of color", neither does Brace. Again, I'm in favor of brown skin tones, but to what degree of variation, I don't know. I know it varied like every population. I'm just pointing out that these sources don't support any skin color notions of that sort. Taharqa 05:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
^I see, but I don't see how pushing the opinion that the ancients could of been "different shades of brown" will improve the article. That's a broad statement and can be applied any where in the world almost. Just doesn't seem important, but if you really need to put it in there I won't intervene again as long as it's worded in a neutral and truthful way that reflects upheld opinions of the qualified mainstream.
Taharqa
06:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
An Opposing View on Egyptian hair and racial identification: West Africa Magazine July 8, 2001 Egyptology: Hanging in the Hair by Anu M'bantu and Fari Supia
F0R YEARS, EGYPTOLOGY has been fighting a losing battle to hold onto an ancient Egypt that is Caucasian or, at worst, sun-tanned Caucasian.
At the 1974 UNESCO conference Egyptology was dealt a fatal blow. Two African scholars wiped the floor with 18 world-renowned Egyptologists. They proved in 11 different categories of evidence that the ancient Egyptians were Africans (Black). Following that beating, Egyptology has been on its knees praying to be saved by science. Their last glimmer of hope has been the hair on Egyptian mummies.
The mummies on display in the world's museums exhibit Caucasoid-looking hair, some of it brown and blonde. These mummies include Pharaoh Seqenenre Tao of the 17th dynasty and the 19th dynasty's Rameses II. As one scholar put it: "The most common hair colour, then as now, was a very dark brown, almost black colour although natural auburn and even rather surprisingly blonde hair are also to be found."
Many Black scholars try skillfully to avoid the hair problem. This is a mistake!
In 1914, a white doctor in Detroit initiated divorce proceeding against his wife whom he suspected of being a "closet Negro". At the trial, the Columbia University anthropologist, Professor Franz Boas (1858-1942), was called upon as a race expert. Boas declared: "If this woman has any of the characteristics of the Negro race it would be easy to find them . . . one characteristic that is regarded as reliable is the hair. You can tell by microscopic examination of a cross-section of hair to what race that person belongs."
With this revelation, trichology (the scientific analysis of hair) reached the American public. But what are these differences?
The cross-section of a hair shaft is measured with an instrument called a trichometer. From this you can get measurements for the minimum and maximum diameter of a hair The minimum measurement is then divided by the maximum and then multiplied by a hundred. This produces an index. A survey of the scientific literature produces the following breakdown:
San, Southern African 55.00 Zulu, Southern African 55.00 Sub-Saharan Africa 60.00 Tasmanian (Black) 64.70 Australian (Black) 68.00 Western European 71.20 Asian Indian 73.00 Navajo American 77.00 Chinese 82.60
In the early 1970s, the Czech anthropologist Eugen Strouhal examined pre-dynastic Egyptian skulls at Cambridge University. He sent some samples of the hair to the Institute of Anthropology at Charles University, Prague, to be analyzed. The hair samples were described as varying in texture from "wavy" to "curly" and in colour from "light brown" to "black". Strouhal summarized the results of the analysis:
"The outline of the cross-sections of the hairs was flattened, with indices ranging from 35 to 65. These peculiarities also show the Negroid inference among the Badarians (pre-dynastic Egyptians)."
The term "Negroid influence" suggests intermixture, but as the table suggests this hair is more "Negroid" than the San and the Zulu samples, currently the most Negroid hair in existence!
In another study, hair samples from ten 18th-25th dynasty individuals produced an average index of 51! As far back as 1877, Dr. Pruner-Bey analyzed six ancient Egyptian hair samples. Their average index of 64.4 was similar to the Tasmanians who lie at the periphery of the African-haired populations.
A team of Italian anthropologists published their research in the Journal of Human Evolution in 1972 and 1980. They measured two samples consisting of 26 individuals from pre-dynastic, 12th dynasty and 18th dynasty mummies. They produced a mean index of 66.50
18th Dynasty Egypt The overall average of all four sets of ancient Egyptian hair samples was 60.02. Sounds familiar . . ., just check the table!
Since microscopic analysis shows ancient Egyptian hair to be completely African, why does the hair look Caucasoid? Research has given us the answers.
Hair is made of keratin protein. Keratin is composed of amino acid chains called polypeptides. In a hair, two such chains are called cross-chain polypeptides. These are held together by disulphide bonds. The bulk of the hair, the source of its strength and curl, is called the cortex. The hair shafts are made of a protective outer layer called the cuticle.
We are informed by Afro Hair - A Salon Book, that chemicals for bleaching, penning and straightening hair must reach the cortex to be effective. For hair to be permed or straightened the disulphide bonds in the cortex must be broken. The anthropologist Daniel Hardy writing in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, tells us that keratin is stable owing to disulphide bonds. However, when hair is exposed to harsh conditions it can lead to oxidation of protein molecules in the cortex, which leads to the alteration of hair texture, such as straightening.
Two British anthropologists, Brothwell and Spearman, have found evidence of cortex keratin oxidation in ancient Egyptian hair. They held that the mummification process was responsible, because of the strong alkaline substance used. This resulted in the yellowing and browning of hair as well as the straightening effect.
This means that visual appearance of the hair on mummies cannot disguise their racial affinities. The presence of blonde and brown hair on ancient Egyptian mummies has nothing to do with their racial identity and everything to do with mummification and the passage of time. As the studies have shown, when you put the evidence under a microscope the truth comes out. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/hair2.html Louisvillian 05:17, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Urthogie 18:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Wow! The hair evidence is crucial! I wonder why people never focused on that? The Senu mummy conclusion is misleading in that it may be marred by a confusion of "race" and makes judgments on "Racial categories" and not geographic origin. Mixed with "Negroid and Mediterranean"?. Such categories are disputed. Similar skull/facial types don't always indicate racial relationships, especially to the arbitrary degree of breaking race down into fractions and categories like that. His facial proportions are well with in the variation of Africa and individual variation as well. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/Northeast_african_analysis.pdf Everyone isn't pure blooded anything though, I'm quite sure, but stuff like this is misleading, like the King Tut controversy. That Frank Yurco article is really old and just obfuscates the issue as he changed his views some what since then in regards to dealing with "racial" issues of the Nile Valley. He stopped using words like "Black", "White", and "mediterranean"(what ever that is) a while ago. The hair evidence doesn't indicate exactly what group of people they were "racially" (in those terms), but it indicates origins and it rules out other groups and by process of elimination fits them closer to other Africans indefinitely, in my opinion. Strong.. Taharqa 22:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
^Urgothie, you're wrong. People in the Sahara were already domesticating cattle, and other aspects of culture such as jewlery, pottery, etc can only be linked with Nile Valley and Saharan culture. There is absolutely no evidence for Mesopotamian influence. There's simply a lot of research that you need to catch up on, you seem stuck in the distant past.
The Sahara and the Sudan in Nile Valley peopling
Saharan-Sudanic inheritance of Nile Valley settlers. Data on the peopling of the Nile Valley do not appear to support earlier historical notions of an initial wave of Caucasoid invaders entering from the North to introduce civilization. Mainstream data shows gradual movement and peopling from the south- the Saharan zone and associated parts of the Sudanic region, fusing with indigenous Nilotic elements already in place, leading into the development of the well-known Egyptian kingdoms, not sweeping insertions from the Mediterranean, Mesopotamia or elsewhere.(AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 83:35-48 (1990)
[9] See Wiki article
Predynastic Egypt for the now discounted
Dynastic Race Theory. As to the Saharan movement even Afrocentric critics such as Mary Lefkowitz note:
Sudanic threads. Elements from both the Sahara and associated Sudanic regions appear to have been involved in the peopling Egypt according to a number of mainstream references. The Khartoum Culture and other zones of the Sudan for example show significant influence as indicated by pottery, jewelry, tools and implements, raw materials such as certain types of stone, and artistic designs. These elements (claimed as negroid in older histories), were clearly in contact with the predynastic cultures of Egypt. [11]
Saharan threads. The once fertile Sahara stretches in a belt from the Mediterranean to the Red Sea. As noted above, fluctuating climate cycles acted as a "pump", pushing people from the south up towards the wetter, more fertile Nile Valley, or down, to zones of similar likeness. As regards the people, historic populations also appear to follow the same pattern of complexity noted above. Generally the pattern is in a "southern" direction, with early peoples being joined by other populations mixes like Berbers, who appear to have been clearly established by 1000, B.C. [12]
Limited outside inspiration needed by Nile Valley settlers. Whatever the exact mix of peoples on the ground, the work of mainstream research therefore demonstrates that from early pre-dynastic times, Egypt was essentially settled by indigenous elements closely associated with groups from the Saharan and Sudanic region moving up into the Nile Valley, and excluded any significant influx from Mediterraneans, Mesopotamians or others not indigenous to the area. Mass migration theories sometimes rely on the introduction of cattle herding, but archealogical data (Wendorf 2001, Wettstrom 1999) suggests that the peoples of the Sahara had already independently domesticated cattle in the early Holocene eastern Sahara, earlier than in the Near East, followed by the gradual adoption of grain cultivation. [13]As another mainstream scholar puts it:
Peopling from the Levant and Maghreb sources The archealogy of the Predynastic and early Dynastic periods show relatively little large-scale movement of peoples from the Levant- the zone bordering the Eastern Mediterranean that includes parts of Turkey, and Syria, Lebanon, and Israel [15]- and the Maghreb which includes modern day countries in North Africa like Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya. However this does not mean that there was not small-scale migration. The fertility of the Nile Valley and comparatively easy food collection opportunities would facilitate such movement. There is clear evidence of trade contacts and material culture, reflected in the increasing weight of trade material such as lapis lazulli, copper and silver. Taharqa 23:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
^Indeed, it's added. Egypt seems to have just been another unique African civilization, this, above anything else is undeniable. They shared racial and cultural affinities with those closest to them. Not more so with any distant groups such as Mesopotamians and Europeans.
This is also how the Egyptians referred to Nubia. Nubia: "Khentu Hon Nefer" (page 554a) = founders of the perfect order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b. Nubia: "To(Ta) Khent" (page 1051b/page 554b) = land of the beginning. Nubia: "Eau" (page 952b/page17b) = the old country Taharqa 01:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
^Why split it up? It's the same culture.. Taharqa 17:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
It's difficult to understand your way of thinking and leads into question how much you really know about ancient egypt. Egypt was an indigenous civilization with its own unique culture. The predynastic and dynastic is only separated by a unification from the south, creating the first dynasty, but there was no culture change. Egypt is thousands of years older than crete and culture was not dependent upon mesopotamia. You might as well split the culture section up into Old, Middle, and New kindom also if that's the case, the petty stuff you're trying to pull is senseless. Frankly, you don't even know what you're talking about and this has been proven so many times.
1. You're the last advocate of the dynastic race theory and have been so oblivious these past years, you didn't even know that the theory has long since been discredited
2. You make numerous mistakes in your logic in reference to what you understand about Egypt.
3. You tend to lean towards your already preconceived notions of what you believe and ignore copious amounts of data and rely on outdated and discredited sources to satisfy your position and save face.
This is utterly senseless as everyone knows about dynastic culture, but how will putting emphasis on dynastic culture allude to any racial affinities when Egypt was clearly unique? The state that had the most in common with them was Nubia, "Founders of the perfect order", as the Egyptians referred to them. What you're doing is senseless and just annoying now, you have no idea what you're arguing. If that's the case, what need is there for a culture section, since you're adding all of these new sections but adding no relevant information yourself? Taharqa 01:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The only feature we see is his nose and his lips which are thick black african lips. We can see his nose from the side so we can't tell if it is causian or not but his head shape is definitley negorid
King Tut was a tropical African variant most likely, as most of the 18th dynasty was. The 18th Dynasty in itself was founded by "Nubian" blood. Even though "Nubian" and "Upper Egyptian" were not mutually exclusive anyways. Taharqa 17:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I believe the Ancient Egyptians who left depictions of tut behind, clearly displaying his ethic affiliations, and they were not "Medit" or "Caucasoid", tut was an Upper Egyptian/Nubian. Besides, the people who reconstructed his face were not scientists, they were artists! That's why each face looked different, duh! smh.. The computer rendition done by the discovery channel in 2002 was the most authentic in my opinion, no one says believe me, and definitely no one says believe you, just believe the most likely possibility given the evidence, history, and logic. Besides Urgothie, you don't even seem qualified enough to even edit this page given what you know about Egypt and your inability to cite sources correctly. You seem a bit amature. It's obvious that you haven't even reached an intermediacy level concerning this topic, you're still a beginner so I see that I have to view you as such. Not to limit your learning potential but given your developed knowledge, you just aren't up to par imo to converse with me on this topic. You can litter the page all that you want with your trash, but it only takes a logical person and informed individual to see how poorly sourced and inaccurate it would be if the task was simply left up to you. Whole gross distortions of history and everything. Please, the irony! Taharqa 01:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't know why people don't mention the first computerized results of Tut's facial reconstruction. http://dsc.discovery.com/anthology/unsolvedhistory/kingtut/face/facespin.html
^This seems the most accurate since it was done by way of computer, with computers you get the same results every time, with hand crafting, you get different results from different artists. Zahi Hawass seemed like he had something to prove ordering another reconstruction when one was already done, I think that later reconstructions were objects of wishful thinking and art on the part of the people involved. Although this is just my opinion and will not be added in the article, I'm just saying. Taharqa 21:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Language as a way to classify "race"
Complications have also cropped up in the use of linguistics as a basis for racial categorization. The demise of the famous "Hamitic Hypothesis", which purported to show that certain African languages around the Nile area could be associated with "Caucasoid" peoples is a typical case. Such schemes fell apart when it was demonstrated that Negro tribes far distant also spoke similar languages, tongues that were supposedly a reserved marker of Caucasoid presence or influence. [16] For work on African languages, see Wiki article Languages of Africa and Joseph Greenberg. Older linguistic classifications are also linked to the notion of a "Hamitic race", a vague grouping thought to exclude Negroes, but accommodating a large variety of dark skinned North and East Africans into a broad-based Caucasoid grouping. This Caucasoid "Hamitic race" is sometimes credited with the introduction of more advanced culture, such as certain plant cultivation and particularly the domestication of cattle. This scheme has also been discredited by the work of post WWII archaeologists such as A. Arkell, who demonstrated that predynastic and Sudanic Negroid elements already possessed cattle and plant domestication, thousands of years before the supposed influx of Caucasoid or Hamitic settlers into the Nile Valley, Nubia and adjoining areas. [17] Modern scholarship has moved away from earlier notions of a "Hamitic" race speaking Hamito-Semitic languages, and places the Egyptian language in a more localized context, centered around its general Saharan and Nilotic roots.(F. Yurco "An Egyptological Review", 1996) [18] Linguistic analysis (Diakanoff 1998) places the origin of the Afro-Asiatic languages in northeast Africa, with older strands south of Egypt, and newer elements straddling the Nile Delta and Sinai. [19]
Beja
Many scholars believe the Beja to be derived from early Egyptians because of their language and physical features. They are the indigenous people of this area, and we first know of them in historical references in the Sixth Dynasty of ancient Egypt.
The Beja people are an ancient Cushitic people closely kin to the ancient Egyptians,1978 http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/bejagirl.html who have lived in the desert between the Nile river and the Red Sea since at least 25000 BC. See Seligman, C. G. Races of Africa. Oxford: Oxford University Press, Taharqa 20:14, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Under Egyptian View
Land Of Punt
Pounit; pwonit : "country of the first existence". The Ancient Egyptians considered the Land of Punt as being their ancestral homeland. Punt, an ancient land south of Egypt was accessible by way of the Red Sea. Its exact location has not been identified, but it is thought to have been somewhere in eastern Africa and probably included the Somali coast. Temple reliefs at Deir el Bahari in W Thebes depict an Egyptian expedition to Punt in the reign of Hatshepsut. [20]
Egypt had cultural contact with Crete as early as the Old Kingdom [8] [9] Secondly, the "Beja" section you added is original research. Who has been attributed as saying it is relevant to the "race" of ancient egyptians? Also, the language stuff you added shouldn't be under "research", as it is more background than anything else... it's an old racist theory, a scientific fossil being debunked. It's not modern "research." Lastly, you said that the 2002 national geographic study found "nubian" appearence. Where in the link does it say the word nubian. I've removed your source until it's not original research of you calling it "nubian". Thank you, -- Urthogie 18:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Just because someone has dark skin it doesn't mean they are "black". The Egyptians were Egyptians. 'Egyptian' isn't a race. It is like people who have no connection to these people are trying to steal their history. You're delusional File:Http://www.jimhayes.com/Egypt-2004/MedHabuMan.jpg File:Http://ime.imb.org/resources/download/images/DSC 7267LG.jpg Oh my god they have dark skin they must be blacks!!!!!!!! Roman depiction of Egyptians of the time: File:Http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/09/Fayum-01.jpg/150px-Fayum-01.jpg Another thing is that the females are often depicted as having very fair skin, the same color that the Egyptians use for Libyans (another non-black North African people)and Semitic people. Semitic isn't racial, there's black semites in East Africa, and white 'caucasians' aren't native to north Africa, north Africans came from south of the sahara like every one else, white people developed their white skin in northern climates, any white man in Africa is an Invader to put it frankly. I'm not saying that the Egyptians were blond hair (although there are some paintings of that)No there isn't, Haha! Those were assimilated Lybian foreigners, if you even saw such a thing past the 12th dynasty., blue eyed Nordic Aryans. (Nazi ideologies), blue eyes is a rare recessive trait found mostly among northern peoples of Europe, not Africa or even most of the Mid eat for that matter. But come on, their skin color is basically depicted in the same manner as those of the modern population of Egypt which is basically Caucasian, Upper Egyptians, who are the true descendants are in no way "Caucasian" Arabs/invaders, they're closer to the "black" Sudanese than they are to "White" Europeans, and even they have Eurasian admixture. genetically and phenotypically, look it up. and identifies themselves as "Arab". Bottom line, blacks, you are not Egyptians, thats not your history, sorry guys. Just remember: Please, but we're African, just like the southern and ancients Egyptians were, and white people are not. Not all dark skinned people are "black". And not all blacks are "Negroids" Not all dark skinned depictions of people mean that the entire race was black. outside of Africa maybe I swear if there was a picture of a dark skinned person on an ancient Chinese scroll,there would probably be 50 essays about how the Chinese were black and that the evil Asian peoples are trying to hide it. I'm personally not that foolish, but I'm sure some blacks with low self esteem are. Not all Africans are "black", basically North Africa. Whites, Arabs, and Asians aren't trying to conceal the greatness of the black race by destroying evidence. I agree, but the point is getting to the truth and disregarding all of these logical fallacies you present so to conclude, Egyptians were Egyptians. And they were also Africans And you probably have no connection to them. That's a very loose statement, who are you to say that? Especially being European, this is between the 'Africans'. So stop fighting so hard to try to attach yourself to their ancient history. Speak for yourself Taharqa 03:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I know this sounds like its some White power rant, but I do not identify myself as "white" although I am mostly Caucasian. I would go off on white people, but I don't see much of that here, and besides to me Arabs/Middle Easterns are basically the same as whites. The only difference is religion.[LoLGuys]
Hahahahahahaha, again what did I say, do you think you are any different than Neo-Nazis who believed that all civilization was derived from a white Aryan race? Reading your post you sound like a huge raciest. One, no we don't know that all the worlds races were black. There are no proven theories on that, I highly doubt the "yellow" i.e. East Asians, were born in 5,000 b.c. by some archaic mix of black (African) peoples and white (I assume you mean Europeans). Which out the regional continuity theory, which shows(doesn't prove necessarily) that East Asian features go back to homoerectus, the first homo species in Asia. Not to mention that China has one of the oldest civilizations in the world, and civilizations, kingdoms and empires don't just sorta happen. Secoundly their word for black could be relative, "black" could have reffered to eye color, hair, or anything else. Probably not skin color, as almost no depiction of an Egyptian, by Egyptians show them with black skin. However their neighborers to the South, the Nubians are all ways shown with very prominent negroid(i.e. black, I'm not using a bad word here)features. While they depict themselves as having dark skinned males and light skinned females. Nubian women don't get very light. However a Caucasian person would be capable of not tanning. http://www.white-history.com/hwr8_files/elderlady01.jpg look at that "woolly" hair. Agian, what I am saying is that the Egyptians looked and still look like this: [10] [11] [12] And not like this: [13] Or this: [14][LoLGuys]
In a lexicographic analysis, philosophy professor Lansana Keita noted that the word "black", "negro", and "African race" are all defined in terms of one another and can be regarded as logically equivalent[1] Although the earliest known references of the English word "black" with reference to African descent were in the year 1400[2], the term (especially when used in a racial context) was popularized during the transatlantic slave trade and the Age of Enlightenment, which gave rise to racial classification[3] The first of these came from French doctor Francois Bernier who divided up humanity based on facial appearance and body type. He proposed four categories: Europeans, Far Easterners, Lapps, and blacks; who he described as having woolly hair, thick lips, and very white teeth.[4] The concept of black explicitly as a proxy for African descent can be traced to the same era when Swedish botanist, physician and zoologist Carolus Linnaeus divided humankind into four main races, loosely based on geographic distribution: europeaus (white race), asiaticus (yellow race), americanus (red race) and afer or african (black race).[5] According to Linnaeus' pseudo-scientific model, the black male could be defined by his skin tone, face structure, and curly hair. He assigned various fanciful attributes to each of his four categories, clearly favoring the "race" europeaus.[6][7]
Agian, not all Africans are black. The majority of North African peoples are what we call "Arabic" which is a culture group more than a race. However they are Caucasian. And that big desert called the Sahara basically historically separated the two. You are trying to connect yourself to the Egyptians. Which is what Afrocentrism trys to do. It is an effort by black Americans, who are of East African slave decent to connect themselves to Egypt, Babylon and other races history. You are not Egyptian, and even if they were black, you aren't related to them. Get of it. However the fact is, all these theories of this massive White-Arab plot to erase the black Egyptian history is purely raciest. Again, put two and two together, modern Egyptians look like the depictions of Ancient Egyptians. The Ancient Egyptian's depictions of Nubians look like modern black people. Now if you consider the modern population of Egypt to be blacks, then whatever. But remember they aren't you, you aren't related to them.[LoLGuys]
Lo LGuys, it seems to me that you must learn more about world history in general and African history in particular. Arabs arrived in Africa in the 7th century ACE. Globally speaking, they have not yet accomplished 2 millennium in Africa. In the past, I said that the White people entered Africa in the third millennium BCE. Sorry for the mistake. I meant in the second millennium BCE. The Egyptian state was long in place. Pyramids were already standing. What did Whites bring to Egypt? Desolations. Their times are known as intermediaries periods. Parenthesis! You wrote: “Bottom line, blacks, you are not Egyptians”. You can say this out of your ignorance of the Egyptian history. When Jean François Champollion arrived in Egypt, he noticed that in the paintings, Blacks came first, Whites “bottom line”, they are not Egyptians. Really the contrary of what you are writing. You need to learn more about Black history. To Urthogie. You said that kmt was not used for other Africans. Today, when one says the American people, we immediately think about the inhabitants of the Unites States. When one says anti Semitic, we immediately think about anti Jewish. But America is more than the USA, Semitic more than the Jews. This phenomenon is called in anthropology ethnocentrism. Powerful nations do put themselves at the center. Egypt did make exception. Diodorus of Sicily wrote in its Osiris and Isis that the Egyptian considered themselves to be at the hearth of the southern world. When they call themselves the Blacks, they considered themselves to be the best among the Blacks. They monopolized also the use of the word rmT which means human being. They considered themselves also as the best of the humankind. So Km means black. Applied to the country, it is written kmt and means the Black Country. Land is masculine in Egyptian. To say black land, one has to write ta km. But niwt or nwt, the city, is feminine. It is the determinative of the country. When used for kmt, the symbol of land does not designate the land, but the country (Cf. Pierre du Bourguet, Grammaire égyptienne, p. 14). When used with the determinative of people, it means Black people. With cattle, black cattle… Take first the words in themselves before making speculations, interpretations. I am sorry but Egypt is in Africa and not in Asia. Go to any good dictionary. You are not an African. I am sorry but the Egyptian culture is only linked to other African cultures. Those of Asia and Europe who have some Egyptian customs did borrowings. (Cf. Herodotus, The Persian Wars; Siegbert Hummel, Tracce d’Egitto in Euroasia, Torino: Ananke, 1997). It was believed that the Egyptian language is Semitic. Gardiner destroyed that hope: “until its relationship to the African languages is more closely defined, Egyptian must certainly be classified as standing outside the Semitic group” (Egyptian Grammar, 2001, p. 3). The first Semitic language known is Akkadian. It is dated around 2400 BCE. Egyptian, written already around 3100 BCE is older! That is why at the Cairo conference, Sauneron said that “Semitic words found in Egyptian don’t exceed one hundred. They came through borrowings. The Semitic family does not explain the Egyptian language”. Do the Egyptian look like the Libyans and the Semites? No, Erman and Ranke answer. How do they look like ? Like the Nubians : “(…) l’Egyptien des temps historiques se révèle dans les représentations figurées de ses tombeaux, à toutes les époques, tant dans son aspect extérieur que dans la manière de se vêtir, tout à fait différent de ses voisins, qu’il s’agisse des Libyens et des Cananéens, ou des nomades du désert oriental (…). Il semble que les peuples qui se rapprochent le plus des Egyptiens soient leurs voisins du sud, les Nubiens”(La civilisation égyptienne, Paris Payot, 1994, p. 46). Now, let me give you some correspondences between the Egyptian language (cf Raymond Faulkner, A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian) and the kikongo language ([this is my language]. Cf Karl Laman, Dictionnaire kikongo-français) about the word km. km: black / lakama: be dark, black; -akana: verbal suffixe Giving the meaning being dark, black; kongula: be dark. Kmt: the Black Land / Kongo: name of villages of Congo. Kmt: Egyptians / bakongo: the Congolese people. kmt: a jar / kamba: cup. km: total up to, amount to, complete / koma: put on, add, be in quantity. kmyt: conclusion of book / kamama: be almost finished, be almost full. kmy(t): herd of cattle / kama: big antelope; kambakasa, kambakazi: multitude. I am expecting you to do the same little exercise (km in Egyptian and in your mother language). Sorry for some harsh words in the past. I am not claiming that somebody who is not African cannot study African Civilizations. I am just inviting you to be less arrogant in subjects not linked directly to your culture. You may ignore some of their subtleties. Peace to both of you and Lo LGuys! Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 195.110.156.38 14:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie, you are free to reject the ethnocentric theory. It does not function as you believe according to logic or objectivity. It functions according to the combination of power and the human tendency to place one’s tribe at the centre of the world. Did you not understand the examples I gave alluding to America and anti Semitism? About kmt in reference to the people. If you know a bit of the Egyptian language, try to translate it literally otherwise than the Blacks without falling into falsifications or manipulations! Egyptians were just black people. « (…) l’Egyptien des temps historiques se révèle dans les représentations figurées de ses tombeaux, à toutes les époques, tant dans son aspect extérieur que dans la manière de se vêtir, tout à fait différent de ses voisins, qu’il s’agisse des Libyens et des Cananéens, ou des nomades du désert oriental (…). Il semble que les peuples qui se rapprochent le plus des Egyptiens soient leurs voisins du sud, les Nubiens”(Adolf Erman, Hermann Ranke, La civilisation égyptienne, Paris Payot, 1994, p. 46) ». « Le noir est, bien souvent, la couleur des dieux. Osiris était noir. Isis fut regardée comme une déesse ‘noire et rouge’, une nubienne, et figurait voilée de noir. Selon Porphyre, Knef, le dieu créateur des Egyptiens étaient noir. Un dieu noir figure dans le tombeau de Sethi I. » (S. Mayassis, Mystères et initiations de l’Egypte ancienne. Compléments à la religion égyptienne, Milano : Archè, 1988, pp. 394-395). Urthogie, if the Egyptians were not from Nubia, why according to you is the first nome of Upper Egypt in Nubia ? « Tз-Sti, Nubia, properly Ist nome of Upper Egypt ; Styw Nubians, sty red (?) Nubian (?) pigment » (Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar, 2001, p. 593). You will notice that the first nome of Lower Egypt is equally in the south. The south, Nubia, is the root of the Egyptian Civilization. Than the political emancipated Egyptians thought of themselves being at the best of the humankind (rmT) and of the black world (kmt). Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 195.110.156.38 17:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Pseudo-scientific theories concerning race, civilization, and "progress" had become quite widespread in Europe in the second half of the 19th century, especially as Prussian nationalistic historian Heinrich von Treitschke did much to promote this form of racism. In Treitschke's writings Semitic was synonymous with Jewish
German political agitator Wilhelm Marr coined the related German word Antisemitismus in his book "The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism" in 1879. Marr used the phrase to mean hatred of Jews or Judenhass, and he used the new word antisemitism to make hatred of the Jews seem rational and sanctioned by scientific knowledge. Marr's book became very popular, and in the same year he founded the "League of Antisemites" ("Antisemiten-Liga"), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany posed by the Jews, and advocating their forced removal from the country.
So far as can be ascertained, the word was first widely printed in 1881, when Marr published "Zwanglose Antisemitische Hefte," and Wilhelm Scherer used the term "Antisemiten" in the January issue of "Neue Freie Presse". The related word semitism was coined around 1885. See also the coinage of the term "Palestinian" by Germans to refer to ethnic Jews, as distinct from the religion of Judaism. (All from antisemitism)
Had you read my writing, I said "what we now call Arab" since Arabic isn't a race, rather a culture group. I am of the opinion that the Egyptians are a homogeneous race. Of course with a bit of constant mixing from the south, i.e. negroid/black people. But also from the East, West, and North, i.e. Whites, and other semitic peoples. But the main problem with Black historians is they are too bias, usually they will only write about history in relation to themselves, or the black race as a generic whole. If you want to study Ancient Egypt, or Ancient Egyptian race, you need to first remove yourself. Look at it as I do, a neutral observer. I am not trying to link my race, background or heritage to the ancient Egyptians. And until you can do the same with all of history, you can not be taken seriously. It's notions like "all mankind was black, therefore all civilization was derived from us" that really not only sounds ignorant but all pretty offensive.
And uh, if Egyptians looked like Nubians, why is it so obvious in Egyptian art when they draw or depict Nubians, they have obvious black African features and skin tone. But when they draw themselves, they look like the modern population?
Also, yes when I mentioned the birth of Afrocentrism I meant people of West African decent. And I apologize for my lack of skill with HTML [LoLGuys]
I never understood why Eurocentrics always pull the same lame card, implying that African Americans had nothing to do with Egypt no matter what race they were. But it isn't an issue when all anglo people in America relate to Greece and Rome, when they're from Western Europe, not east. Ain't no greeks with blond hair and blue eyes, so can we effectively say that they were a different race? Greeks called northern Europeans white, in comparison to themselves, and Egyptians black. They say the "complexion of courage is between the two" - Aristotle... So what's up with the hypocracy? White people teach us about Greece every day in school, we don't give a fuck, what does Greece have to do with white people if that's the case? Why can't black kids learn about and glorify Egypt? I mean it is in Africa and Greece is in Europe.
And uh, if Egyptians looked like Nubians, why is it so obvious in Egyptian art when they draw or depict Nubians
That's an awfully stupid question, why did the Egyptians look so different from white people and semites? and Why do Somalis look so different than Congolese, or the Beja(black) of North Africa look so different than people of Chad? Because Africa has the longest history of variation and there is no single 'black' type in which some how you feel the Nubian represents. Also there is no such thing as "black" features, read a book or go to Africa some day. Modern Man adapted and spread through Africa for 90,000 years before he ever left. The ones that left were only one population and all of the other races come from this one population and this is why everyone else is so homogeneous while Africa is so diversified. All features on earth come from Africa and are still there, which is evidence that we all come from there. READ! Get rid of the ignorant stereotypes and study critically Taharqa 22:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie. You are very good indeed when it comes to your Society. Congratulations! Still the Jews have monopolised the word anti Semitic, putting themselves at the centre of the Semitic world. Am I wrong? The idea that the Jews are the elected people is another example of ethnocentrism. Apparently, you agree with me on the example of America. If it is the case, you got my point about the Egyptians calling themselves rmT (the humankind) or Kmt (the Blacks). About Tз Sti, you are totally wrong. Read well Gardiner. He wrote in good English: « Tз-Sti, Nubia, properly Ist nome of Upper Egypt ; Styw Nubians, sty red (?) Nubian (?) pigment » (Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar, 2001, p. 593). Peace! Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 195.110.156.38 20:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
^Cop out, so now we're debating the race of the Nubians? Taharqa 22:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/egypt/abusimbel/ramses/nubiandet2.jpg hmmm wonder if that is an Egyptian or a Nubian? http://www.dignubia.org/maps/timeline/img/b1540a-nubian-tribute-huy.jpg I can't find any better pictures online at the moment, but a “master” of African history such as yourself should have access to pictures of Nubians made by Egyptians. You will the different details given to people of black decent. On the facial features and shapes, as well as the color of skin.
^^Why are some of those Nubians painted red in color like the Egyptians, I thought all black people were jet-black?! (Sarcasm)..
Taharqa
22:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Or maybe you pulled that out of your ass to fit your view even though there is no evidence what so ever to support that elementary claim. Anthropologically or in literature Taharqa 22:47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
What's straight forward is that those depictions in the tomb of huey seem to differ with your baseless claims. Like I said, all Nubians weren't jet-black and all Egyptians weren't reddish-brown. Ethnically, Egyptian and Nubian weren't mutually exclusive, these were simply nationalities and in the beginning they were the same nation. The tomb of Ramses III also depicts Nubians similar to them, but nationalities make distinctions among others in the name of chauvinism. If you believe all Egyptians and Nubians looked the same then you're just nieve. If you want to remain ignorant, that's your fault, not mine..
Taharqa
02:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Quote:
They regarded Africans gods as their saviors" What? hahahaha. What a total load. My understanding is the Egyptians saw themselves as perfect, and had a disdain for their neighborers. Especially the Nubians. Since Kush is the Egyptian word for "vile".
Hahahahahaha!! You have to be the most ignorant human on wikipedia for this comment. Nubia comes from the word "Nubi" which means gold, and Kush was a Kingdom in the upper Nile and had nothing to do with Nubia (the state), Kush comes from the Hebrew word, "Cush", land of the Ethiopians, what the hell are you talking about? They indeed called the Kushites Wretched and Vile, but this was during tribal conflict, they also referred to them as "Khentu Hon Nefer" (page 554a) = founders of the perfect order. Budge: "peoples and tribes of Nubia and the Egyptian Sudan." For "Hon" see page 586b. Nubia: "To(Ta) Khent" (page 1051b/page 554b) = land of the beginning. Nubia: "Eau" (page 952b/page17b) = the old country
They referred to the lighter skinned Asiatics as pillagers and thieves. Labeled them literally "ignoble asiatics" and associated them with the red color of Seth, which stood for Evil. Osiris stood for black, which meant good. Osiris, or I should say Ausar's(the ancestor of the Egyptian race) very title was 'Kem Wer', or literally (with no corruption of the translation in any way)"The Great Black (One)", interpret that as you may but it should be no coincidence that his skin is usually depicted as jet-black. Now get over yourself and learn more about Egyptian customs and culture. You make it seem as if the burden of proof is on the premise that they were not different than the Nubians in the beginning, yet it is the opposite since all evidence points to that conclusion. Now get over your self. Taharqa 05:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Nubian Monarchy Called Oldest*
By Boyce Renseberger
(From page 1)
Evidence of the oldest recognizable monarchy in human history, preceding the rise of the earliest Egyptian kings by several generations, has been discovered in artifacts from ancient Nubia in Africa.
Until now it had been assumed that at that time the ancient Nubian culture, which existed in what is now northern Sudan and southern Egypt, had not advanced beyond a collection of scattered tribal clans and chiefdoms.
The existence of rule by kings indicates a more advanced form of political organization in which many chiefdoms are united under a more powerful and wealthier ruler.
The discovery is expected to stimulate a new appraisal of the origins of civilization in Africa, raising the question of to what extent later Egyptian culture may have derived its advanced politicat structure from the Nubians. The various symbols of Nubian royalty that have been found are the same as those associated, in later times, with Egyptian kings.
The new findings suggest that the ancient Nubians may have reached this stage of political development as long ago as 3300 B.C., several generations before the earliest documented Egyptian king.
The discovery is based on study of artifacts from ancient tombs excavated 15 years ago in an international effort
(From page A16)
Clues to Oldest Monarchy Found in Nubia
to rescue archeological deposits before the rising waters of the Aswan Dam covered them.
The artifacts, including hundreds of fragments of pottery, jewelry, stone vessels, and ceremonial objects such as incense burners, were initially recovered from the Qustul cemetery by Keith C. Seele, a professor at the University of Chicago. The cemetery, which contained 33 tombs that were heavily plundered in ancient times, was on the Nile near the modern boundary between Egypt and the Sudan.
The significance of the artifacts, which had been in storage at the university's oriental Institute, was not fully appreciated until last year, when Bruce Williams, a research associate, began to study them.
"Keith Seele had suspected the tombs were special, perhaps even royal," Dr. Williams said in an interview. "It was obvious from the quantity and quality of the painted pottery and the jewelry that we were dealing with wealthy people. But it was the picture on a stone incense burner that indicated we really had the tomb of a king."
On the incense burner, which was broken and had to be pieced together, was a depiction of a palace façade, a crowned king sitting on a throne in a boat, a royal standard before the king and, hovering above the king, the falcon god Horus. Most of the images are ones commonly associated with kingship in later Egyptian traditions.
The portion of the incense burner bearing the body of the king is missing but, Dr. Williams said, scholars are agreed that the presence of the crown—in a form well known from dynastic Egypt—and the god Horus are irrefutable evidence that the complete image was that of a king.
Clue on Incense Burner
The majestic figure on the incense burner, Dr. Williams said, is the earliest known representation of a king in the Nile Valley. His name is unknown, but he is believed to have lived approximately three generations before the time of Scorpion, the earliest-known Egyptian ruler. Scorpion was one of three kings said to have ruled Egypt before the start of what is called the first dynasty around 3050 B.C.
Dr. Williams said the dating is based on correlations of artistic styles in the Nubian pottery with similar styles in predynastic Egyptian pottery, which is relatively well dated.
He said some of the Nubian artifacts bore disconnected symbols resembling those of Egyptian hieroglyphics that were not readable.
"They were on their way to literacy," Dr. Williams said, "probably quite close to Egypt in this respect."
He said it was not known what the ancient Nubian civilization was called at the time but that he suspected it was Ta-Seti, a name known from Egyptian writings that means "Land of the Bow," referring to the weapon which, apparently, was deemed characteristic of peoples in that part of Africa.
Dr. Williams said there were accounts in later Egyptian writings of the Egyptians attacking Ta-Seti some time around 3000 B.C. This is just about the time, according to the archeological record, when a major cultural transformation began in that part of Nubia. Little is known of what was happening in this region between 3000 B.C. and 2300 B.C. when inhabitants were unquestionably governed by separate chiefdoms.
Their descendents, he suggested, may have developed the Sudanese Kingdom of Kush, based in Kurma, Egyptians for sovereignty and, in fact, prevailed over them for a while.
A detailed monograph on the discoveries is in preparation, but there is no deadline and publication is expected to be a few years away.
http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/NUB/NUBX/NUBX_brochure.html
Most surprising, evidence that early pharaohs ruled in A-Group Nubia was discovered by the Oriental Institute at Qustul, almost at the modern Sudanese border. A cemetery of large tombs contained evidence of wealth and representations of the rulers and their victories. Other representations and monuments could then be identified, and in the process, a lost kingdom, called Ta-Seti or Land of the Bow, was discovered. In fact, the cemetery at Qustul leads directly to the first great royal monuments of Egypt in a progression. Qustul in Nubia could well have been the seat of Egypt's founding dynasty. Figure 1: The decoration of the Qustul Incense Burner, as restored. A sacrificial procession contains the earliest definite image of a pharaoh with his crown and falcon-label. Oriental Institute Nubian Expedition http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/PROJ/NUB/NUBX/NUBX_brochure.html
Any logical person can infer that Egypt was a colony of Nubia who migrated into Egypt and founded the first dynasty. Also Ta-Seti, Upper Egypt, and Lower Egypt was all one kingdom back then and seeing as how Ta-Seti was a "Nubian" kingdom, which is confirmed, obviously the original Egyptians were Nubians.
Extremely interesting quote from Diodorus of Sicily (90 B.C. - 30 B.C.):
Diodorus Writes:
"The Ethiopians say that the Egyptians are one of their colonies which was brought into Egypt by Osiris"
In the same breath he writes:
"They add that from them, as from their authors and ancestors, the Egyptians get most of their laws. It is from them that the Egyptians have learned to honor kings as gods and bury them with such pomp; sculpture and writing were invented by the Ethiopians. The Ethiopians cite evidence that they are more ancient than the Egyptians, but it is useless to report that here"
Not to mention the fact that if the Egyptians and Ethiopians were not of the same race, Diodorus would have emphasized the impossibility of considering the former as a colony of the latter and the impossibility of viewing them as forebears of the Egyptians. It seems unfathomable that people over look this stuff, it gets frustrating after a while, as if you're in the 5% of people who actually know the truth. Well I take that back, many people know the truth and refrain from saying the Egyptians were anything but African, but people do sneakier shit, like trying to redefine the word "Black" a million times over, and I now refuse to be labeled by outsiders, because it's unscientific. You're either dark skinned or not, and you're either genetically similar or not. We know nothing of their genetics and the most we know of their complexion is that they were darker than the Greeks. All I care about is the fact that they were biologically African and more similar to other Africans, that way I don't get caught up in the Eurocentric trap. Taharqa 22:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Biologically African referes to those who adapted their features in any set of African micro-climates, and under evolutionary theory that would cause any indigenous inhabitants of Africa (who lacks foreign admixture) to be genetically distinct from Europeans and more similar to each other as African variant populations under the PN2 clade. "Sub-Saharan" is a misnomer and doesn't describe any racial group, it's a geo-political term and anthropologists will tell you that. And how is that the only basis for my argument when it coincides with the archeological evidence I've provided directly above it? I mean exactly! Haha, It's hard to accept reality for some people, but I'm patient. Taharqa 05:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Forget American society, I'm considered 'black' in American society, the point is that we're all African descendants who migrated directly from the Sahara and adapted all over every part of Africa. My only point is, and you being the logical person that you are should agree, according to evolutionary theory "Caucasians" developed their phenotypes in colder climates in the extremes of Northern Europe during the ice age, they're drastically different by nature (physically) than any native African and the presence of such people there is due to backward immigration or recent invasion. I don't think there's any evidence for mass backward migrations. Now if these people weren't Asian mongoloid invaders either than what were they? That's the problem with the word "Negroid" and "Black", these people are all simply Africans with recent common ancestry who developed different traits in different parts of Africa, but they are the same people in essence, which is my sound view. Taharqa 05:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Urthogie 05:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
You did not pick a weak argument, you dissected a strong argument and broke it down into a weak component, but as a whole the argument simply can not break down when put in context with the archeological evidence, you must admit that it makes sense.
Taharqa
05:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Obvious you're simply oblivious to what you did. It's not a 'weak' component because it wasn't meant to stand on its own, you took it out of context as I quoted that to coincide with the archeological evidence. Also, I'm not an advocate of 'race', I'm an advocate of shared ancestry and recent common origin. North Africans wouldn't have drifted as far since people who cluster geographically also cluster genetically, and from what I know archeologically, the North Africans in question migrated from the central Sahara and/or eastern desert and not from the north, since very few people are native to or lived in the Sahara desert which spans over almost the whole of North Africa (besides the coast, where invading Caucasians did in fact settle), this is relevant. Not making an argument, just a point.
Taharqa
07:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
^First of all, who ever said that the Egyptians changed phonetically and fully adapted to Egyptian climate? Keita and others said they had tropical body plans and Egypt isn't in the tropics. Besides, mass population change in phenotype does not naturally occur that fast. Judaism is a religion, not a race or ethnicity, hence the distinction European Jew, and not Asiatic Jew. European Jews are mostly European, yet they inherit the culture of their distant ancestors (despite intermingling with fellow neighboring Europeans). But even some Caucasian looking Israelii Jews (with the exception of the Israeli Fellahin) are a result of the Indo-European expansion after 2,000 B.C and a bit of intermingling... Palestinians for example reflect their recent Asiatic roots a little more as a group(they were probably less subjected to foreign influence). Also, the Afro-Asiatic language its self (which includes semitic) started in East Africa (scholars think Ethiopia), and the further you go back in time, the more that Afro-Asiatic speakers should coalesce into a single ethnic entity that reflects their cultural forbears, unless of course culture was imposed on them. Asiatic Jews also have traces of E3b, East African DNA, these people are not pure blooded. The original inhabitants (which they still are in essence) would of been slightly darker (but not jet black) given evolutionary theory (like Palestinians). A lot of people did not fully adapt to where they currently stay though anyways, that is a longer process that takes more than a few thousand years (this is common knowledge). Most settlements/kingdoms/empires don't last that long and people usually only stayed put if there was a barrier..
Taharqa
07:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
From article on
Jew:
This theory could also solve the paradox of DNA studies noted above that show Ashkenazi Jews to be related to the peoples of the nations surrounding Israel and being relatively far from their European neighbours, despite physical features that sometimes are more closely resembles that of the peoples of southern and central Europe; as one explanation would be a large miscegenation millennia ago followed by almost no outside genetic contact thereafter.but this kind of assumptions is not supported by any historical account, and the extent of physical features similarity between Ashkenazi jews and non-Jewish Europeans is disputed .
-- Urthogie 11:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
No, you're backwards Urgothie, and you answered your own question.
Quote:
"as one explanation would be a large miscegenation millennia ago (Indo-European expansion, I told you that) followed by almost no outside genetic contact thereafter."
Also, I'm not really understanding that seeing as how Ashkenazi Jews are from Rhineland near Germany! They're European Jews who descend from the Middle East, but I have discussed that Urgothie..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
Your explanation about Palestine seems illogical seeing as how virtually all Middle easterners are ethnically homogeneous Arabs, and Arab isn't a race anyways. Proto-Arabs themselves have been subjected to much Indo-European expansion in the form of the Greek, Persian, and Roman conquests, but generally kept their Asiatic identity as a whole. The Yemeni people are the original Arabs and they're intermediate between 'Sub-Saharan' and 'Eurasian' given their thousands of years of contact with Ethiopia, it's been a two way relationship for millenia.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=15457403
Though the people who expanded weren't from Yemen, they were from Mecca. In the same breath though, it's extremely false for you to equate darker skin with Africa, the Middle East isn't exactly forgiving as far as heat and UV is concerned. You disregard evolutionary theory totally in your claim that Arab Eurasians are dark as a result of admixture, which is unfounded, why are southern Indians so dark then? And Native Australian aboriginals? You're being a hypocrite now, you say dark skin in Africa doesn't equate with relatedness to other Africans (which it does, given recent common ancestry), Then you claim that Arabs are only darker because they are closer to Africans (even though they have no recent common ancestry with Africans)? Yea, geographically closer to the equator in Africa, that's about it, genetically they're closer to Europeans as a group. They simply adapted to warmer climates than Europeans who drifted further away genetically as they entered the cold climates of Europe many thousands of years ago. I really don't see your point, given the known constant contact with Europeans and Asiatics, and simple observation of the indigenous Asiatic Arab groups (like the fellahin), one can easily make a clear distinction between the native inhabitants of the Middle East and northern Europeans, ethnically. Palestinians simply reflect their ancestral state more so than their neighbors next door, and it's important to note that in biblical times, these two lands were the same. Just different cultures now, and everyone knows that Israel is a lot more western influenced than Palestine is and has been for many centuries so you're thinking backwards. Do you have a source for your claim that the Palestinians' ethnic identity (darker skin, curlier hair) is due to the Arab expansion (that's the first time I've ever heard that, ever)? Again, "Arab" is a cultural identity that is no older than 1800 years old. The proper term would be 'Eurasian', those native to southwest Asia, and Palestinians are south west Asians so that makes no sense.. That's like having French "mixed" with English, which is indistinguishable. It's not hard to understand. I simply think that you need to learn more about evolution theory, migration, and history. You probably know your history, but you seem to have a poor concept of evolutionary theory. Or maybe you're just confusing yourself, I'm not sure what you're implying, but I'm patient and will be happy to steer you straight given any misconceptions.. Taharqa 15:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Persians are relatively lighter than their neighbors, largely because they are not Arabs
^^Persians were not originally semitic, they spoke an Indo-European language and migrated from the north. They are/were "Aryans".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persians
1. "Black" is a term I don't use for the reason you suggested. Southern Indians and native Australians are 'blacker' than most Africans phenotypically but genetically they're not similar. As I said before, I'm concerned with 'Africaness' and more recent common ancestry. I don't advocate a 'black' Egypt no more than I advocate a 'black' Nubia, my only contention is that they were very similar to each other and shared recent common ancestry, and at one point were the exact same people culturally and ethnically. Empirical data seems to back that up, Keita admits this.
2. The only reason I question your knowledge of evolutionary theory is simply due to the fact that you assumed people can develop significantly unique traits so quickly. We know this is false and my knowledge of evolutionary theory comes from every aspect of progressive learning (books, research, and schooling). This is a fairly layman aspect of the subject as it is anyways, so there's actually no need to appeal to authority, as this is common knowledge. Taharqa 17:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
1. Well it seems pretty clear to me first off that the traits associated with appearence evolve faster than those associated with various systems below the skin.
^^I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.
2. But anyways, isn't the logical extension of your view that if the human race had (hypothetically) had very little intra-group mixing, and humans just gradually moved north over the millenia, and thousands of years went by of evolution-- that nothing would distinguish the "Africanness" of the guy in Norway from the "Africanness" of the guy who evolved in Ethiopia, despite the fact that they'd have comepletely different skin colors? It seems to be a
reductio ad absurdum to just focus on this "Africanness", no?
No, you're confused again, people develop various phenotypes independently. Skin color is correlated with closeness to the equator and physical cranial/facial traits are a result of different environmental pressures to micro-climates/macro-climates, along with random individual variation. Like I said, my only contention is that they were very similar to each other and shared recent common ancestry and that it would be hypocritical to impose a social label like 'black' onto the Nubians but not the Ancient Egyptians. I don't see it ass '
reductio ad absurdum' at all, it's very straight forward.
Taharqa
17:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course recent common origins in Africa identifies "Africanity", this is the very genetic concept on which 'race' is based. People who are more distinct genetically have more distant common ancestry. Africans are allowed to vary more so than Europeans and all other peoples due to the simple fact that human variation has its longest history on the African continent. Yet it would be useless to split Africa into 50 million races simply due to this diversity, that's absurd.
Quote:
It is important to keep in mind the long presence of humans in Africa, and that there should be a great range of biological variation in indigenous "authentic" Africans http://www.forumcityusa.com/viewtopic.php?t=318&mforum=africa Taharqa 18:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
1. First question.. People who are distant geographically are distant genetically by environmental law. Asia is extremely different than Africa geographically and these isolated population only derives from one single exodus out of one African population. I'm not sure what you're asking but anyone who travels that far and drifts for that long will obviously be genetically distinct from their ancestors.
Taharqa
18:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
^No, they've drifted and adapted to the extremes of the Asian environment.
^Again, no, they've adapted to an East Asian environment.
There you have it then. And actually your question wasn't really hypothetical, you can apply it to the East Asians of today. Taharqa 18:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The ideal criterion that each continent be a discrete landmass is commonly disregarded in favor of more arbitrary, historical conventions.
But anyways, this is yet another specific that neither I (nor you, I'm presuming) know so much about.
You shouldn't "assume".. I don't know what you've been reading but I know that you understand what a "Mongoloid" is and why they're not Africans. Honestly you aren't making sense now, I'm sorry.
But anyways, am I correct to say then that your argument relies on the idea that the African environment is what determines Africanness? What is scientific about using line drawn around Africa centuries before?
African climate is a lot more uniform in comparison to the rest of the world, which is obvious given that Africa is smaller than the rest of the world. There is no extreme environmental variation in Africa, and the point is that the indigenous people of Africa come from the same relatively recent source and didn't travel too far away from each other. They also intermingled.
The ideal criterion that each continent be a discrete landmass is commonly disregarded in favor of more arbitrary, historical conventions.
^That's true in terms of land mass for some continents (Europe and Asia), but not "Environment". Learn the distinction.. Also geography is in fact a legitimate science and there is a basis for Africa to be separated as a 'continent' given that is it separated by water from all other lands and only connects with Asia through the Sinai Peninsula, which explains recent genetic gene flow from Asia to Egypt. I know we aren't debating the validity of geography now? How many concepts are you looking to destroy for the sake of argument?
Do you disagree with this, or what? How can you use a concept from pre-Darwinian map-making to justify an essentially Darwinian argument
I'm quite sure Darwin agreed that Africa is a unique continent, separate from the others. I doubt that he'd disregard science (geography) for the sake of agreeing with your point. Taharqa 19:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
How is that a Non sequitur when I answered your question directly? Maybe you're asking the wrong questions.
How can you use a concept from pre-Darwinian map-making to justify an essentially Darwinian argument
^Because according to evolutionary law, those who are close geographically and usually close genetically unless there's an extreme difference in environment and subsequent isolation. There are no 'extreme' differing environments with in Africa, as compared to the bulk of the rest of the world. Geography coincides with environment to a certain degree. The environment of Northern Europe is nothing like that of Northern or sub-saharan Africa. Whether or not geographical classifications are arbitrary, common sense will tell you that variants of the same source who stay with in close proximity, are more than likely to be closely related. That's why "Africans" are "Africans", Europeans are Europeans, Southwest Asians are Southwest Asians and East Asians are East Asians. East Asians are geographically distant from Native Americans, but genetically similar due to recent common ancestry. Because of proximity, Southwest Asians are genetically similar to Europeans and they are related groups with recent common ancestry who adapted their own personal features. "Authentic" Africans all migrated from south of the sahara and adapted to various climates with in Africa, but because of close proximity and recent common ancestry, they're all related groups with in the same bracket. Even Berbers of North Africa (who have obviously been infiltrated with Eurasian blood) are still intermediate between the two extremes of so-called "Caucasoid" and Negroid", and are related to East Africans genetically more so than they are to Northern Europeans, even with the admixture! (Though it's important to note that we don't know which way the admixture went, they could of been originally Eurasian immigrants, but most people hold that they're indigenous to Africa due to their language and culture, most likely the Sahara). Same with today's upper Egyptians. Well, actually, the Mahgreb Berbers are thought to have been that way even in the past and I can admit that there were early migrations, probably from Europe to the North Coasts of Africa and the Canary Islands thousands of years ago, but they'd of been restricted to North Africa because of the Sahara. Archeology tells us that the Egyptians, Nubians, etc all migrated from the South during the Sahara's fertile period, and not from the North or coastal regions. These coastal people were the northern "Lybians" of antiquity, described by the Greeks and the Egyptians. If I haven't explained myself well enough for you I probably never will.. Be back later.. Btw, I'm not trying to convince that they were 'black', just to open your mind and steer away from any Dogma. Taharqa 20:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
^Ok, I see what you mean.. I'm also reading another source which states that the word African is a 'misnomer'(in reference to race), but this is the problem with labels and 'race' period. When ever you're speaking in reference to a large group, there's going to be identification problems. Going back to what I said about Biologically Africa though, I don't draw a line anywhere, I'm speaking in reference to migration patterns and cuts-offs. Nature draws the line with oceans and seas on all sides of the continent. Northern Egypt is the crossroads that introduces Africa to Asia, and I agree, Africa with in its self has a varied topography, so where to draw the line(you can ask the same thing about race)? I see it like this, you have certain animals that are native only to the African continent and travel through out the majority of the whole (besides the desert of course, who does?), like Rhino, Giraffe, and Zebra.. With in their respective categories they're all considered animals of the African variety, and in each respect, with in species they relate to each other, and also native animals period, like African killer bees who are not like European bees, but relate to other African bees because of proximity inside the continent and recent common ancestry. This very same concept I apply to people and to not do that, simply diminishes various aspects of the English language. We have to learn when to put things in context and not reduce everything to the lowest common denominator, because it's impossible to make sense of things that way.. No need to complicate things more than they really are.. Taharqa 22:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
^Exactly, you're a really sensible guy.. I'd like you, if you will when you get a chance, to read this article about the controversy of Ancient Egypt and race, and you can decide if any of the information is relevant to the article. It's a very objective article that takes all arguments into account from the King Tut renderings to modern perceptions of race, and even literature. Probably one of the fairest articles I've read as it is brutally honest and doesn't try to appeal to either side. http://en.allexperts.com/e/c/co/controversy_over_racial_characteristics_of_ancient_egyptians.htm And likewise, enjoyed the engagement. Hotep(Peace) Taharqa 23:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and we should all agree by now that this quote below is false, so I took it out of the culture section..
Dynastic Egypt shows strong cultural ties to Crete dating back to the Old Kingdom (about 2686 BC). [21] Greek culture received much of its Egyptian influence through Crete.
Crete/Minoan civilization
Crete was the center of the Minoan civilization (ca. 2600–1400 BCE), the oldest civilization in Europe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete
Ancient Egypt, 3150 BC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_egypt
The source:
http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/foreignrelations/crete.html
The statement says more than the source and totally over exaggerated it. No mention of strong cultural ties, I'm quite sure that people from Crete visited Egypt once or twice, but cultural ties is extremely far fetched and as far as I know, no one has ever made that claim before. They mention "indirect contact", not cultural ties, especially "strong" cultural ties. Egyptian influence over Greece came much later, and even that shouldn't be considered 'cultural' ties, Egypt was independent of Greece and culturally distinct for its first 2500 years. Honest mistake I guess. Taharqa 01:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I understand your logic, but as I stated, the source makes no mention of any cultural ties at all, but possible "Indirect contact", I'd assume in the form of distant trade. Egypt had trade contacts with a lot of people (probably most of the ancient world), no reason to single out Crete. Also, I provided the wikipedia source that confirms Crete to be hundreds of years younger than Egyptian civilization so this in no way can allude to any racial affinities, as is the concern of the article anyways.
Taharqa
05:16, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
King Tutankhamun
A previous rendering in 2002 by the Discovery Channel however, provided much different results. [15]
^Indeed, last time I nievely stated that the rendering portrayed "Nubian" features, which is a weasel word and people should be able to see for themselves what the source tells us. There were also many comments about his racial affinities from other sources other than what's posted, which may be relevant, but the inclusions reflect balance as it is now, so it may not be too significant.
Language as a way to classify "race"
Complications have also cropped up in the use of linguistics as a basis for racial categorization. The demise of the famous "Hamitic Hypothesis", which purported to show that certain African languages around the Nile area could be associated with "Caucasoid" peoples is a typical case. Such schemes fell apart when it was demonstrated that Negro tribes far distant also spoke similar languages, tongues that were supposedly a reserved marker of Caucasoid presence or influence. [22] For work on African languages, see Wiki article Languages of Africa and Joseph Greenberg. Read the rest in article.
^^ Is appropriately put under the language category as people should be aware of the misconceptions and new research concerning race and language, just as they should be informed of the latest genetic studies or cranial interpretations. All sources are cited..
And that's about it for now, looks good to me...............
I also removed this quote from the Diop section. Other criticisms contend that Diop's method of categorizing the "types" of the mummies were biased, falsely grouping the mummies as "negroid" regardless of important distinguishing features.
^We can all agree that so-called 'negroid' features aren't exclusive or inclusive to so-called "blacks" (which was Diop's main argument), and even if this was so, it has nothing to do with the Skin test as diop's mummy selection had nothing to do with the test. I understand that this error was probably just due to a cloudy moment of contention and for the sake of making an opposing argument. So I'll add a better critique to balance it out then.
New Entry
"However, Diop does not describe any tests that verify his claims that melanin is "non-existent" among the "white-skinned races" nor provide evidence supporting his assertion that the absence of melanin in the epidermis is due to embalming techniques". Still, ironically, This technique was later adopted by the U.S. forensic department to determine the racial identity of badly burnt accident victims. [23] Taharqa 01:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
^Cool, understandable. And actually I only copied and pasted the word 'ironically' from the source, but I agree, it may be in bad taste.
Taharqa
05:11, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Uthorgie, I have the impression that you don't know well the chronology of ancient Egypt and that of your classical civilizations (Rome, Israel, Greece...). How can you put in question the tesimony of Diodorus of Sicily based on Egyptian and Nubian (Ethiopian) informants? These were Blacks. No dought about that. Diodorus of Sicily lived in 1st century BCE. Herodotus lived in the 5th century BCE. Their testimony is more important than the findings of Archeologists because they were witness of the events they were reporting and of the color of the skin of the people they met. We know, thanks to them, that up to their time the Inhabitants of Egypt were still Blacks. Archeology can have more weight in case of contradictions between ancient writers. But we know that there is not. Urthogie, are you going to make people believe that our testimony (based on our eyes) on the colors of the skin of the people of today is not useful because these colors will only be determined by the Archeologists of the future? Actually, you have the same reaction than that of the many biased Western Egyptologists who refuse to consider ancient writings on Egypt as sources of Egyptology. Other sciences do not have that complex. They start from the same writers who strangely enough are found genius! So I am sorry for Urthogie, ancient Egyptians were Blacks. Your Archeologists, be them from America or from Japan, are making fantasy when they try to contradict the Egyptians, the Nubians, the Greeks, the Arabs and the Hebrews about the blackness of the Egyptians which was obvious in those ancient times. This article of Wikipedia must include a section on the testimony of ancient literature on the race of the ancient Egyptians. Up to now I only have texts in Italian and French. If you have access to English versions of Herodotus, Aristotle..., please Urthogie, have the courage to begin writing that section. Objectivity in science means to be able to bow before an evidence. Or maybe Taharqa has already access to that ancient literature in English? Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 82.88.213.182 19:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Not to get off topic or anything, But I was over on Stormfront reading their racist crap about the color/race of the ancient Egyptians, and I would love for some of you wiki aurthors to go over their and shut them up 74.128.200.135 02:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
^I usually don't deal with the ignorant types at stormfront, they're for the most part, irrational and unbearably ignorant. Though I may slide over there in the near future sometime to give them a brief reality check.
What do you guys make of these quotes?
Aristotle (384-322 B.C.E.) Greek philosopher, scientist, and tutor to Alexander the Great. Aristotle is said to have written 150 philosophical treatises.
Aristotle on skin color and 'courage'.
"Too black a hue marks the coward as witness Egyptians and Ethiopians and so does also too white a complexion as you may see from women, the complexion of courage is between the two." (Physiognomics, Vol. VI, 812a)
Aristotle also makes reference to the hair form and bowleggedness of the Egyptians and Ethiopians:
"Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair."
And
Ammianus Marcellinus (325/330-after 391) - Roman historian.
Marcellinus, in his description of the ancient Egyptians of his time:
"...the men of Egypt are mostly brown or black with a skinny desiccated look." (Ammianus Marcellinus, Book XXII para 16) (Physiognomics, Book XIV, p. 317) Taharqa 04:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, Taraqh, I looked up that Jew stuff and the article has it wrong. Jews are mainly middle eastern in their genetic history-- Steven Pinker explains that they look similar to any people they move near in the diaspora after a couple centuries because one intermarraige or rape is enough to make a certain local gene completely take over the jewish gene pool there because it's very adaptive for that area. So there's relatively little admixture with other groups.-- Urthogie 12:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
^^Basically he asserts what I already knew, phenotype and genotype are two different things. They have adapted European phenotypes because of their history, but cluster towards middle easterners because of their geographical proximity, plus I already made the distinction between 'European' Jews and Asiatic Jews earlier. This repeats the same information.
And I made the changes we discussed. Taharqa 15:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
A side note, to these arguments about ancient history and such: I recognize that the Egyptians had wooly hair, and dark skin when Herodotus and Aristotle went to them. The question is how black and how wooly-- there are arabs who can be described as dark skinned with wooly hair, but are nonetheless recognized as arab in today's society. For example I have a friend here from Saudi Arabia who fits that description. Another issue that remains in such arguments is that they probably had the "Caucasoid" craniometry associated with Ethiopians.-- Urthogie 12:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Syria wasn't Arab till the 7th century.
^They have the same Eurasian ancestors, 'Arab' isn't a racial term, it's cultural, they have always been the same people, with the exception of the Yemenites, who have substantial Sub-Saharan influence, and probably had more so back then.
As far as the quotes, well, they all compared them to the Ethiopians, so why don't you try and fit it in that context before you look outside it. They were mentioned in the same breath, side by side as being too black and having curlier hair than other nations. That and the fact that the Ethiopians were directly bordering Egypt gives you a logical answer. Besides, we're talking about dark wholly haired people in Africa, Eurasian people were well known to the Greeks at the time and would of been mentioned if it had applied. I don't see any logical way around those quotes honestly, other than that they were similar to Ethiopians (Nubians), which is plainly stated in writing. Taharqa 16:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Which source establishes the connection between cultural evidence and genetic evidence?
Early culture, from whence it developed and the surrounding areas who had input and/or shared culture with Egypt from the start. Which is why I put what I put under culture to begin with, because it was the only thing relevant to the article at the time. I have no idea why you insist on mentioning Crete, obviously Nubia and Lybia had much more of a connection to Egypt than far away Crete.. It's confusing to me why you insist on mentioning them, especially when Crete is not known to have any real cultural ties with Egypt, and in reference to Egypt, Crete really just isn't important at all and theres no reason to mention them. But I guess I can get rid of the culture section if it seems problematic, because indeed culture can be (in a lot of cases) suggestive of, but not implicit of the "racial" or ethnic identity of a given group.. Taharqa 15:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I erased it already. I never made the connection in the first place, you did when you asked me the question. Taharqa 16:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Did Aristotle go to Egypt ever? I thought this question hasn't been answered as of yet. Or was he just repeating hearsay and attempting to do some logic with it? Questions have been raised about Herodotus as well. [16]-- Urthogie 16:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Questions have been raised about Herodotus as well.
What are you talking about? That source questions whether or not he has been to the black sea, not Egypt, we know he traveled to Egypt and went as far south as the 1rst Cataract at least.
There's apparently no solid evidence that Aristotle ever visits Egypt but it would be foolish to assume that he never met/seen any Egyptians and Ethiopians. Besides, he confirms what Herodotus and Ammianus Marcellinus says, who both surely traveled to Egypt. Even if Aristotle did repeat hearsay(which is doubtful), obviously they must of been described to him by people with no reason to lie, which is confirmed by writers who lived before (Herodotus) and after (Marcellinus) him.
Taharqa
16:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Mummies with straight hair
Actually, Keita has already proven that the Crania was African Crania. Brace' study has been discredited. He used only one male sample from Uganda to represent all of Africa. http://en.allexperts.com/e/c/co/controversy_over_racial_characteristics_of_ancient_egyptians.htm
There has been no DNA testing on mummies, and current DNA tests to indicate their origins indicated that they were African, most likely East and that they are unified with all other Africans under the PN2 clade.
Numerous genetic tests have been performed on the Egyptians in order to determine their origins. One maternal study linked Egyptians with people from Ethiopia and Eritrea.[7] There was also a Y chromosome study by Lucotte et al performed on Egyptians, with haplotypes V, XI, and IV being most common. Haplotype V is common in Berbers and has a low frequency outside Africa. [8] Haplotypes V and XI, and IV are all supra/sub-Saharan horn of African haplotypes, and they are far more dominant in Egyptians than Near Eastern or European haplotypes. [9] Kivisild T; Reidla M; Metspalu E; Rosa A; Brehm A; et al. Ethiopian mitochondrial DNA heritage: Tracking gene flow across and around the gate of tears. 2004 American Journal of Human Genetics 75 (5): 752-770. Determined there is a close genetic relationship between Ethiopians, Eritreans and Yemenis, as well as pointing out genetic affinities with Egypt.
He (Cavalli-Sforza) never studied Egyptian Mtdna or Y-Chromsome. Cavalli-Sforza findings were before the finding of the Pn2 clade. The Pn2 clade was found to unite africans from North, South, East and West africa. The finding of the Pn2 clade has changed the way that African genetics is viewed. Most Africans including Egyptians are overwhelmingly of the Pn2 clade E3a and E3b. http://en.allexperts.com/e/c/co/controversy_over_racial_characteristics_of_ancient_egyptians.htm
There were no mummies with straight hair native to Egypt, read this.
http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/hair2.html
Alright, to be fair though, I found other statements that can be seen as opposing or contradictory to those. They were also described as 'medium toned' and near that of northern Indians, lighter than the people of their border, who in turn were slightly lighter than the Ethiopians. Which I tried to reconcile with the other quotes, and it was a little more difficult. My only explanation was that these quotes seem to come at much later dates (excluding Marcellinus). Though at the same time they're still describing 'dark skinned' "mulatto" types and compares them to Indians, who are also mulatto types.
Indeed, Achilles Tatius of Alexandria writes his impression of the herdsmen in the Delta.
"they are blackish, like half-castes!"
According to Arrian (Indica 6.9): (c. 86 A.D. - after 146 A.D.)
The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically.
Strabo - (63/64 BC – c. AD 24) As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in colour, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Aegyptians..
Marcus Manilius - (fl. 1st century AD)
The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it it a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone. – Manilius, Astronomica 4.724
French scholar Constantin-François de ChassebÅ"uf, Comte de Volney visited Egypt between 1783 and 1785 and comments:
"...[The Copts] all have a bloated face, puffed up eyes, flat nose, thick lips; in a word, the true face of the negro. I was tempted to attribute it to the climate, but when I visited the Sphinx, its appearance gave me the key to the riddle. On seeing that head, typically negro in all its features, I remembered the remarkable passage where Herodotus says: 'As for me, I judge the Colchians to be a colony of the Egyptians because, like them, they are black with woolly hair. ...'" In other words, the ancient Egyptians were true Negroes of the same type as all native-born Africans. That being so, we can see how their blood, mixed for several centuries with that of the Romans and Greeks, must have lost the intensity of its original color, while retaining nonetheless the imprint of its original mold. We can even state as a general principle that the face is a kind of monument able, in many cases, to attest or shed light on historical evidence on the origins of peoples.[33]
I'll try and contribute in a second, I'm still researching.
Taharqa
17:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Yet and still, the chart clearly shows that it was well with in the range of the mean average of African hair, and it explains about how bonds break over time. Besides, hair has nothing to do with race..
It was in 1877 that Dr. Pruner-Bey wrote a paper in the Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, vol. 6 (1877), pp. 71-92 titled On the Human Hair as a Race Character, concluded that ". . . . we arrive at the conclusion that the color of the hair alone is insufficient to characterize a race." http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/on_human_hair_-_1877.pdf Taharqa 18:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Urgothie, you're backwards, in 1877 they believed in race, now a days scientists don't, so choose who you believe, either way hair has nothing to do with race. The hair was essentially African anyways according to the chart like I said that averaged out 4 complete studies.
San, Southern African 55.00
Zulu, Southern African 55.00
Sub-Saharan Africa 60.00
Tasmanian (Black) 64.70
Australian (Black) 68.00
Western European 71.20
Asian Indian 73.00
Navajo American 77.00
Chinese 82.60
The overall average of all four sets of ancient Egyptian hair samples was 60.02. Taharqa 18:24, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
^Of course, still doesn't mean that there is a such thing as African hair, the social ideas of the laymen can not be used as evidence. Plus the chart still shows that the hair is with in the African average.
Taharqa
19:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
You're right about the Ethiopian study, I remembered seeing that a while ago, but I just let it go. Is the ancient history section cool though? Feel free to fix any mistakes or typos, I tried to be as neutral as possible.
I agree with you on the background section for racism also, it deserves expansion. I'll try and see if I can't find some relevant material a little later if you don't beat me to it.
We may soon be ready for a peer review. Keep adding stuff
Haha, you're crazy, I wish, lol. Article does look good though, everyone is contributing, and actually you're helping me look at it another way also. All of Egypt in my opinion wasn't 'what we'd call' black, but I believe a lot were, especially in upper Egypt, and those were the people who essentially started the civilization in the early beginning. I'm willing to say that the culture and civilization was essentially African, but multi-ethnic with different waves of people coming at different times. This is why there are so many contradictions and confusion as to what they were for the layman, the fact is they weren't just one people. I only became passionate about this when coming across racist idiots who intentionally go out of their way to deny the extremely important African elements, or what they call 'black'. It seems as if the Ethiopians (Nubians) and Egyptians were closely related, but not exactly the same, not to mention Egypt was more of a melting pot. In the end I now think Egypt was a mix of Nubian and Lybian type Africans, and later on the Hyksos, Greeks, Romans, then Arabs, etc all brought in a more complex foreign mixture that we can see today, mainly in the delta region. Taharqa 20:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
True about stormfront, I thought of it, but no, I've read a few of their threads and it of no use, science and objective scholarship doesn't exist over there, it's just a constant socio-political race war. I've long gotten out of the biased stage as there is no use lying to myself, let alone other people. I just have to go with that facts available, and form an opinion. I don't want to force my opinion on people, but I will by any means try and get the facts across, because mis-information leads to bogus opinions. I'm going to the gym and out to eat for a minute, I'll be back later to try and contribute to the article a little bit more. Hotep.... Taharqa 21:08, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm, indeed, Eurasian/Arab tribes, Hebrews, etc were all contemporary with the Egyptians, and personally I do hold the fact that the Bible lists Egypt under the family of Ham/Khm, Mizriam, brother of Cush(Ethiopia) Put(Land Of Punt, some believe Phut), and Canaan(Ancient Sumerians/Babylonians) to be circumstantial evidence indicating possible relationships, and take it into consideration all the time. But we would have to cover two other points of contention, mainly is the Bible literally reliable in the name of objective scholarship, and can we prove that ancient Sumer was inhabited by Africans? These will have to be cleared up before we can even consider the Bible a source.
At the moment I'm not aware of too many Arab or ancient Eurasian writers who commented on these aspects. As far as the depth of the section, feel free to touch it up if you will, yet be sure to leave the main points of contention in tact, I'm not sure that I see too much of a problem with it as it is, but of course it isn't perfect. I'd need a little bit of help to perfect it. Taharqa 01:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Taharqa or Urthogie. Does someone know a bit about the "Lepsius Canon"? It seems that it is the best means to determine the racial caracteristics of the ancient Egyptians. The article does not mention it. It can fit well in the section "Research" if the informations about it are found. Another thing. The pictures illustrating the Egyptians in the article are not real "photos" but modern "renderings" by Eurocentric drawers. I think it is Urthogie who brought them. I suggest to have them removed and replaced by real "photos". Finally, the teats of the breasts of Blacks and Whites do not look alike. Those of Whites are yellow or red and those of Blacks are black. A section can deal with this subject if "photos" of the breasts of the Egyptians, especially women, are found. The teats can help identify the race of the ancient Egyptians. Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 82.88.213.182 09:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 82.88.213.182 18:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
This composite modern drawing, frequently shown in Afrocentric texts as supposed "proof" that the Egyptians and Kushites were identical, is a known error (click here for brief explanation). The actual tomb does not show anything of the sort.
Copy of some figures from the Seti I tomb by Minutoli in 1820, possibly when the tomb was in better shape. From left: four Libyans, Nubian, Syrian, and Egyptian.
I agree, there's heated debate over that and Yurco expects people to take his word for it, regardless of the fact that the Nubian looking people are called "Rm.T in the photo, only Egyptians are Rm.t, and he never explained that. In my opinion Yurco may be right but I can't just take his word for it, especially when there's things that he avoided explaining and he never took a photo to validate his claim. You have one person who went there and took a photo to prove it, claiming that the tomb pictures are real. Then you have some one else who claims to have gone there, but has no pictures to prove it, and he says it's fake. It really means nothing either way to me and doesn't effect my opinion. They're discussing and analyzing it thoroughly in this thread on Egypt Search.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=004936..
^I'm making no argument for that one though, Its isn't a shut case for me...
And Urgothie! Again, bro isn't lying, that website indeed is biased and that picture on the front is a "Eurocentric" rendering which effectively makes the Egyptians' skin lighter, which isn't cool. I've never seen them colored that light in any tomb unless it was the women who they drew yellow (for symbolic purposes representing fertility), This is the real actual photo.
http://www.catchpenny.org/images/seti1a.gif
^Now look at the one in the front article.. I just noticed that myself when he brought it up, the one in the article isn't a true representation, has nothing to do with lighting, it's a completely different color.. I suggest that you take it down and replace it with the real authentic photo, and not a copy/rendering. I'm going to go ahead and remove and wait for one of you guys to add the actual photo, we have to be as accurate as possible here and that photo is misrepresented to the extreme, notice the Eurasian and Lybian both stayed the same color, and the Egyptian is the only one drawn lighter. You type in "tomb of races - Seti I" in google image and the authentic photo is the only one that pops up, the other one is a cool representation, but in concern to this article it's a farce. Taharqa 20:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, I don't know if it would be right to put "Language as a way to classify race" under 18th/19th century views, since the hamitic myth and dynastic race theory were both prevelant and saw its peak in the 20th century. Maybe you can switch the name of the section to Old views, or older, or something of that nature? Taharqa 20:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Urgothie, that's backwards, what you're (or whoever posted that picture) doing is original research from a geocities website that tries to debunk 'afrocentric' claims, it isn't concerned with science and I can easily refute it with an Afrocentric geocities site. But what's the use? Common sense Urgothie, seriously, those are two different renderings and what proof do we have that this is a direct photo even if the lighting from the original was bad? Did they say that they went back and took another picture? Or is that an assumption? Taharqa 21:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
^You're exactly right, I'd have to agree with everything you say here. Taharqa 21:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
This image isn't from geocities originally. I got it from thebanmappingproject. I'm not gonna be on this site for the weekend, please don't make overly drastic changes because I completely disagree with your arguments here and I'll respond to them when I get a chance.-- Urthogie 21:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
^Cool.. I myself won't make any changes at all, and I don't think there's an argument, we know for a fact that this is a copy/rendering and not the original, only thing to be discussed is if it's fair to present that as an authentic representation of the original over the other one, or either copy for that matter. Be it that the article is about 'race', this is extremely important, in any other context it isn't so significant. It should be confirmed that this is a replica of the actual tomb, which of course it isn't.. Taharqa 22:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie, the image removed is not a picture, but a copy by Minutoli in 1820. In "geocities" http://www.geocities.com/enbp/foreigners.html, the photograph is on the left side and the copy on the right side. So you can see both of them. As the subject we are dealing with is very sensitive, I suggest we put the photograph in the article rather than the drawing. It will be the same case with the representation of the races in the tomb of Ramesses III. The drawing made of it is a big falsification which cannot be tolerated in an article such as this on "ancient Egypt and race". Lusala lu ne Nkuka-- 82.88.213.182 18:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for the first picture. But it is so beautiful! As for the second, you know well from our discussion that we have Syrians, Egyptians and Libyans. Of cause, it is very interesting to see that Egyptians can be taken for Nubians, because they are the same people ethnically and racially. But when the Egyptians present Egyptians, we have to accept that reality, and not say they are wrong. Nobody will believe that the Egyptians who built such a great civilization were suffering from a lack of self-definition! "rmT" means Egyptian. This word is written on the top of those dark Blacks on the photograph of the tomb of Ramesses III. The drawers of second removed picture put these word on the top of the brown Blacks taken maybe from the tomb of Seti I to replace the dark Blacks of the tomb of Ramesses III. See the best to do, but it is becoming clear to me that it is quite impossible to let pass the idea of a "White" or "mix race" Egypt without falsifying facts. Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka-- 82.88.213.182 15:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I second your earlier comment Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka a white or mixed race Egyptian civilization is just obsorb. There are just too much evidence that black Africans from the South and West of the Egypt were the original migrants of the area. 74.128.200.135 19:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Brief clarification, I'm the one who wrote what you just quoted, not Urgothie. Taharqa 04:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
In a work by E. A. Wallis Budge, I distinctly remember a plate showing hieroglyphics next to reliefs of egyptians enslaving nubians. The nubians thereon clearly had thicker, coarser and more wirey hair, darker skin, and much more prognathism than the Egyptians so depicted, although, the Egyptians seemed to be more dolichocephalic. Does anyone know the source of the image? It might be one of the 'gods of the Egyptians' books, or a work on hieroglyphics in particular. This relief was a period work. Later accounts by Greeks as given in the article would be that of a differing "racial" type than those of the period of those earlier Egyptians dynasties. 67.5.157.48 04:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
First of all, you guys should hunt down the book "Egypt In Africa", it's a classic volume and very informative. I got a little bit of info on the cultural aspects between Egypt and Africa from it and I can contribute that in a little while. http://www.amazon.com/Egypt-Africa-Theodore-Celenko/dp/0936260645
The Egyptians are undoubtably of Nubian origin, as the A-Group of lower Nubia and Upper Egypt had shared culture, the same culture that lead to dynastic Egyptian culture. Culture swept from south to north, and a kingdom was unified in the north. First dynasty Abydos tombs shows remains with predominantly stereotypical "negroid" morphology. Here's the study by Sonia R. Zakrzewski showing that AE's had a "super-negroid" body plan, not in my own words. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/egyptian_body_proportions.pdf
There indeed was some type of difference, biologically between northern and southern Egyptians though, and while culturally Egypt conformed to its southernly rooted culture, it conformed biologically, or cranial-metrically more towards the Northern type, though the southern Egyptians were still linked to the further southern groups like Somali, etc, while Northern Egyptians resembled modern Berber people cranial-facially, and it seems both types kept their "super-negroid" body plan. The thing is, if cranial studies can't be linked with archeology it's worthless, the Brace study being a good example since it's been shown that Europeans didn't emigrate into the Nile Valley. It wouldn't be right to call these northern Egyptians mulatto Berber types and Southern Egyptians East Africans/Negrito types. It was a diverse mold of African types period, most of them dark skinned yet so many people seem to interpret that as "Mixed".. A better word is multi-ethnic, not multi-racial, if any thing they were still closely related groups, despite the differences. Berbers are said by some to have came from East Africa anyways. http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/keita.html Taharqa 01:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)