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Since there was still some ongoing editing (albiet among adminstrators) I've lifted the protection. If anyone edit wars any further, leave a note on my talk page and you'll get see a block for disruption quick-smart. - brenneman 23:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Egypt = Mixed Race Society seems to be what scientific evidence supports, contrary to white racists and the afrocentrists. Good job wikipedia on a great page. Peace,
--winatchess
Enriquecardova, I see you have returned to this article today. Unfortunately you don't appear to have used the time away to read the talk page or the manual of style, as you are still making major, largely unformatted, additions to this controversial article without discussing it here.
I'm not sure why we need a Scholarly Dissent heading in an article about a Controversy. It mostly either covers ground already adequately discussed in Wikipedia's Race article, or contains information that would be better-suited to the article's Anthropology subsection. In particular, the Luigi Cavalli-Sforza information is duplicated within the article.
Today's Frank Yurco-related additions appear to represent a fairly mainstream view - in fact this Egyptologist is probably notable enough for his own Wiki article in which more detail could be expounded upon his theories. The information could then be summed up in a somewhat less verbose way in this article under Anthropology. StoptheDatabaseState 16:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is looking much better with the latest changes. StoptheDatabaseState 11:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Nebakneil, resurfacing to work his bogus double game with "other" accounts, alleges that the S. Keita reference casts no doubt on use of catch-all categories like Mediterranean or Middle Eastern to define racial categories. Passages used by Keita were quoted in full earlier. Nebakneil removed them. Now he develops a mysterious memory lapse and says that the reference really don't say what they said earlier. What a dumb game. No one is being fooled. He can use tags or "good cop, bad cop" routines under "other" user accounts, but his game is growing stale. Can't you people be more creative? Very well, here are the quotations again. Its just a simple matter of copy and paste. The old version is on hard disk. Once again, the BS, obstructionist, tag splashing approach being used by certain people is being exposed. If we are going to play at an "academic" approach, then I too must reevaluate the use of the King Tut picture per Wikipedia guidelines, as other editors will no doubt do.
Nebakneil removed the quotes below earlier. Now he says they really didn't say what they said earlier :)lol - people please- give me some better comedy ...
"Nebakneil" also claims that quotations from mainstream scholar Yurco "POV". Duh. His tactics is to put tags by everything in an attempt to get what he doesn't like removed. His bogus AFD request was in similar vein It is obvious that scholars have differng points of view. is there any scholar that doesn't have one? The proper Wikipedia approach is comparing Yurco to ANOTHER scholar so an objective comparison can be made. But Nebakneil and his "other" accounts remember, removed such comparions. Now, piously, he laments about "POV" by some scholars, after earlier removing the comparisons. lol.. Doesn't this BS approach get tiring for you people? comedy people, comedy, gimme a better routine..
First, I would like to inform you that English is not my native language so forgive my grammatical errors.
This is regarding Kemets ethnicity
This message is to all researchers of ancient Kemet. The ethnicity of ancient Egyptians is of an Ethiopian. A lot of you get confused of what is “BLACK”. The fact that there were and are two main “Black” complexions in ancient kemet or Cush is confusing for the so called white and African American history students. The very dark black natives of that area are known as the “Aiye-oakes” or “Gam-bella” and they can be found today leaving in the western parts of Ethiopia and the Durfur regions of Sudan. The less dark black natives of that area are generally known as the Habeshas. The Habeshas are the Eritreans and Ethiopians. A lot of you history researchers don’t have enough information about the region and are usually writing or trying to understand an old culture based on solely books. If you are really serious about learning or finding out the true identity of ancient Egypt, then try learning a bit of Tigrinya , Amharic or geez (the older version of the two languages) and you will see that most of the names of ancient Egyptian city’s , kings , queens are very Ethiopic. I don’t even know how to read Hieroglyphics (has been done already for me ….. thank god) but without even reading the explanation of what the names mean I can tell you accurately what they mean, due to my understanding of these two languages.
Most of you whether you are white or black don’t seem to be interested in the history of kmt but are mostly interested in the politics. When there is nothing to politicize. Your goal seems mostly to proof that you had a CIVILIZATION or to proof that they (“Blacks”) were not part of the greatest CIVILIZATION of all time... I definitely understand the frustration of most of the arguments coming from black researchers, but in regard to some and very some white researcher’s comments, it is very clear, it only has one purpose, i.e. to continue the distortion of African or Kemets History. But, as I said if you are serious about learning kmts, history learn the above two languages and you will be so amazed how fast your learning of kemet will be facilitated.
History is for all of us. It’s not a black or white or yellow or red history.
IT’S OUR STORY, HUMANS. SO PLEASE LEARN IT WITH AN OPEN MIND.
Regards,
Tariku
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tariku"
This picture[ [1]] says it all.
Egyptians characterized Negroes as another race, different than themselves. See Book of Gates.
Even sillier and more pathetic is the claim that the AEs were somehow "ancestors" of American blacks. SveinForkbeard 13:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear SveinForkbeard. Like other Eurocentrists, you are trying to amuse people using your own fantasies. The brown-color of the skin of the Egyptian is caracteristic of the black race, in the same way is the dark-color of the Nubian. I see that you have never visited Africa. So, don't speak about things you don't know well. Now, if the "Egyptian were not black", why according to you did Herodotous say that the Egyptians have black skin and wooly hair? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you did Herodotous and Basil Davidson say that the Egyptians occupied their soil from the south, meaning from Nubia? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you did Aristotle say that the Egyptians like the Ethiopians are very dark? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you did Plutarque say that the Egyptians consider themselves as being southerners? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you did Plutarque report that the Egyptians are offspring of Osiris, a black-skin-god? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you did the Bible put Misraim (Egypt) and Kush (Nubia) under a common ancestor Ham? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you Erman and Ranke did write that the people who most resemble the Egyptians are the Nubians? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you did they consider the south of their country as the country of their origin, and the country of the gods? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you did they call themselves kmt(rmT), meaning "the Black people"?, and their country kmmiw(niwt), meaning "the country of the Black people"? I think that you know nothing or just a little about African civilizations. To begin with, please watch the "4 Online videos by Basil Davidson" in www.homestead.com/wysinger/ancientafrica.html (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).
First, I would like to inform you that English is not my native language so forgive my grammatical errors.
This is regarding Kemets ethnicity
This message is to all researchers of ancient Kemet. The ethnicity of ancient Egyptians is of an Ethiopian. A lot of you get confused of what is “BLACK”. The fact that there were and are two main “Black” complexions in ancient kemet or Cush is confusing for the so called white and African American history students. The very dark black natives of that area are known as the “Aiye-oakes” or “Gam-bella” and they can be found today leaving in the western parts of Ethiopia and the Durfur regions of Sudan. The less dark black natives of that area are generally known as the Habeshas. The Habeshas are the Eritreans and Ethiopians. A lot of you history researchers don’t have enough information about the region and are usually writing or trying to understand an old culture based on solely books. If you are really serious about learning or finding out the true identity of ancient Egypt, then try learning a bit of Tigrinya , Amharic or geez (the older version of the two languages) and you will see that most of the names of ancient Egyptian city’s , kings , queens are very Ethiopic. I don’t even know how to read Hieroglyphics (has been done already for me ….. thank god) but without even reading the explanation of what the names mean I can tell you accurately what they mean, due to my understanding of these two languages.
Most of you whether you are white or black don’t seem to be interested in the history of kmt but are mostly interested in the politics. When there is nothing to politicize. Your goal seems mostly to proof that you had a CIVILIZATION or to proof that they (“Blacks”) were not part of the greatest CIVILIZATION of all time... I definitely understand the frustration of most of the arguments coming from black researchers, but in regard to some and very some white researcher’s comments, it is very clear, it only has one purpose, i.e. to continue the distortion of African or Kemets History. But, as I said if you are serious about learning kmts, history learn the above two languages and you will be so amazed how fast your learning of kemet will be facilitated.
History is for all of us. It’s not a black or white or yellow or red history.
IT’S OUR STORY, HUMANS. SO PLEASE LEARN IT WITH AN OPEN MIND.
Regards,
Tariku
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tariku"
Are ancient Egyptians "ancestors" of African Americans? Oh, yes! Mr SveinForkbeard doesn't know well African history, but he is making comments about it. African traditions, especially among the Western African populations and among the so called Bantou speaking people report the migrations from Egypt. The Kikuyu in Kenya, indicating the north, say that they came from "Kana". This word reminds us "Kmt". In Senegal and Gambia, people have records of their migrations from Egypt. Scholars like Cheikh Anta Diop, Aboubacry Moussa Lam, Théophile Obenga confirm in their investigations what people know from their traditions. Lam in particular wrote a book on "De l'origine égyptienne des Peuls". In another book, "Les chemins du Nil", he showed how Egypt is present through out Africa. After Diop, Lam thinks that it is the invasion of Egypt by the Persians which provoked those migrations we are talking about. Obenga states that "l'Afrique profonde, précoloniale est la dispersion culturelle de l'Egypte ancienne à travers le continent noir". "Kmt" survives in words like "Kongo", "Ghana", "Kumbi Saleh (Saleh = srx = the throne of Horus), "Tur Kana (Tur = ta wr = great country)", "Khemi", "Bughanda", "Kong"... Now, I hope that you know the story of the European Atlantic Slave Trade. Europeans uprooted Africans mainly from Western and Central Africa, the home of the descendants of the ancient Egyptians. That is why the African Americans are normal heir, along with other Africans of the legacy of ancient Egypt. Mr SveinForkbeard, if you visit Africa, you might come out saying like David Livingstone that the Angolans, by their way of weaving, and of making their hair, remind us the ancient Egyptians as we can see them in the London Museum! (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).
Im tired of people using that one picture to describe the egyptians. I see that picture and raise you the thousands upon thousands more of AFRICAN looking Egyptians. I would also like to argue that The Egyptians are depicted as darker than me.....and I would be considered black. -- Vehgah 08:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
"And 40% of Ethiopians are Arab genetically. Minorcorrections"
"Hahaha, any evidence (reliable sources, not thread posts in forums about skyscrapers)? I didn't think so (see Semino et al 2004 and Kivisild et al 2004 for Ethiopian and Arab DNA). Yom" "Maternally, Ethiopian genes are entirely of local origin. Yom"
Yom is exposed by his barefaced lies. He says that his studies say Ehtiopian maternal genes don't have Caucasoid admixture. Kivisild [2]
Maternal lineages of Semitic- (Amharic, Tigrinya, and Gurage) and Cushitic- (Oromo and Afar) speaking populations studied here reveal that their mtDNA pool is a nearly equal composite of sub-Saharan and western Eurasian lineages. This finding, consistent with classic genetic-marker studies (Cavalli-Sforza 1997) and previous mtDNA results, is also in agreement with a similarly high proportion of western Asian Y chromosomes in Ethiopians (Passarino et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2002), which supports the view (Richards et al. 2003) that the observed admixture between sub-Saharan African and, most probably, western Asian ancestors of the Ethiopian populations applies to their gene pool in general.
What kind of deception is Yom operating under here? Since Yom has now been exposed for his lies, can we say Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire. 207.195.254.202 19:52, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the question or not should be if the Egyptians were black it should really be how black were they. There are too many descriptions of the Egyptians being described as black and dark and wooly haired to say that they were not black. Heck even a visit to stormfront.org and you will see that they even acknowledge that many of ancient egyptians were black but they dispute the time when they were black. I think I might have to agree with the afrocentrist because if a white supreamacist website acknowledges a black influence in Egypt then I would be worse than a white supreamcy if I did not acknowledge it, especially with all the evidence. Even after my question no one has really proved that the egyptians were white or not black. I saw that picture with the nubian and the syria, and libyan and egyptian. The Nubian was black in skin color the egytian was reddish brown and the other two relatively white. Now if ancient egyptians were white they should have the same skin color as the syrians. Odds are the ancient egyptians had the facial characteristics of Nubians but the skin color of Ethiopians. As for the arguement that ancient egyptians are the ancestors of african americans, well that is a bit farfetched imo
This article has been severly truncated from the original articles and has been replaced with a lot unrelated material. what happened to the sphinx.
Enough. I've seen a lot of personal attacks, things like accusing others of being "liars", unfounded sockpuppeting jabs, and debate over the controversy itself. I was going to remove these as personal attacks, but it would take me quite a while, and would probably start a useless edit war. In the interest of policy, and of keeping this page relevant to article improvement, I would like to propose the following guidelines for this page for all editors:
Some of this is already policy, some of it isn't. But can all sides agree, from this point forward, to uphold these and discuss the article, not arguing over the merits of its topic? -- W o o ty Woot? contribs 03:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok, first off none of the notable sources in this section are afrocentrists. Secondly, its original research to claim their work is afrocentric. Thirdly, its original research to even claim that the afrocentric "argument" has any place in science whatsoever. Science simply produces theories. If some famous afrocentrist says that science has made afrocentric conclusions, we can quote them as saying that in a section called "Opinions", or something along those lines. The current content should be dispersed to other sections. I've placed an original research template on it, and I think it should be moved to other sections. I plan on keeping it there until this issue is discussed and a resolution is reached.-- Urthogie 00:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
The section could do with some work but still has some important insights that should not be left out of this article. Muntuwandi 05:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Rather than, IMO, irrationally target an entire section for removal, treat the subject text as one would any other text. An editor should identify specific passages that he or she finds problematic and address them on their merits (or purported lack thereof). This same approach should be taken toward subsequent edits, as well -- notably my last round of edits --rather than wholesale reversion (by Urthogie) with an absolutely meaningless edit note about "afrocentrists" which is neither informative nor germane. deeceevoice 15:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the "huge changes" were made earlier -- when this information was gutted from the article without justification. Again, you must cite specific passages with which you take issue. Reverting text wholesale, gutting passages and reinserting bullsh*t disinformation from a Stormfront website, as well as a blatant, flimsy and wholly unsourced mischaracterization of mainstream opinion w/regard to the skin color of ancient Egyptians ---- which is what you did -- is not the way to improve the article. deeceevoice 18:11, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, the so-called "afrocentric opinions" you refer to are information that is the result of credible and rigorous research by well-regarded academicians and historians (mainstream and otherwise), and are supported by ample evidence, as reported in the article. Despite your opinion, information which supports an afrocentric perspective is not, ipso facto POV; it is what it is. deeceevoice 18:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
If you hadn't heard, immature, snide remarks should be dispensed with. And I'm still awaiting specific passages and your objections. deeceevoice 18:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
That relatively minor change was simply an attempt to address the matter of the subhead in labeling the information as "afrocentrist." An earlier version of this article split the issue artificially, eurocentrists versus afrocentrists -- in effect, erecting strawmen. Clearly, there is much mainstream, non-black, non-afrocentrist scholarship that supports the afrocentrist take on ancient dynastic Egypt. Pigeonholing and mischaracterizing information from, say, Herodotus and Petrie, the Father of Egyptology, as "afrocentrist", rather than merely as the result of objective observation and research is misleading and, depending on one's perspective, simply an ad hominem attack approach to the matter ("afrocentrist" being treated as pejorative term in some circles). If you have a suggestion for alternative wording, then advance it for consideration. And "blatant lie"? Refrain from such accusatory language. Your actions and attitude exhibited herein (and elsewhere lately) are not helpful to the project. deeceevoice 18:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I abandoned this article in disgust some time ago, after much of the useful, interesting information had been gutted. If you check back to some of the earlier versions, countevailing information was, indeed, presented. I haven't focused on readding that stuff; it's not my interest, but you're certainly welcome to dig it up. Much of the heavy lifting in that regard already has been done. If you'd like to start another, work page for the article for review/discussion/debate before drastically restructuring the current article, that's fine with me, too. But I have focused on correcting errors and deleting racist disinformation from Stormfront-related websites frontin' like scholarship and will not tolerate you or anyone else continuing to reinsert it into the article. deeceevoice 18:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Letters to newspapers, comments on blogs, etc. are not notable unless the person themself is notable in the given field. Otherwise, only the content of the publication is considered notable.-- Urthogie 20:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Sheldon Peck is a college professor -- at the time, at Harvard University -- and published [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]. His opinions on related subject matter should be, and are, considered authoritative -- hence the publication of his letter in the NYT and works in multiple scholarly journals and other venues. The information is restored. deeceevoice 00:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The above statement is misleading. Prof. Peck made no statement whatsoever about ancient peoples. He commented solely on the craniofacial characteristics of the Giza Sphinx -- a subject fully within his training, education and expertise. The statement will be restored. deeceevoice 13:04, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
DCV apparently replaced a paragraph of the lead describing the mainstream scholarly consensus with a sentence describing what Afrocentrists claim the evidence shows. I restored the old lead, and also the picture, which (whether you like it or not) is extremely revelant to the discussion, and represents scientifically derived conclusions. DCV, just want to remind you that an encyclopedia doesn't exist to synthesize truth, but rather to organize and present what reliable sources say ( Wikipedia:No original research). Discuss before reverting me, please. Thanks, -- Urthogie 01:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The mainstream scholarly opinion is that the Egyptians were primarily a light-skinned to brown-skinned group of people with features that resembled more a multiracial society leaning more towards an appearance that is alluded to in the scientific attempt to reconstruct the facial likeness of Tutankhamun which appeared on the cover of National Geographic in 2005.
With regard to the text in question, there is no singular, mainstream consensus regarding a prevalent skin color of the ancient Egyptians. Nor is there a consensus as to when and to what the degree there was purported "racial" admixture among the population. The so-called indigenous "Caucasoid"s of North Africa were/are black peoples, as were the Abssyinians/Ethiopians/Eritreans, the Sudanese (Kushites) and the other Nilotic peoples of the region, with the Arabs not present to any great degree until the 7th century A.D. Lotsa luck with finding a reputable source that asserts, as this editor tried to, that the ancient Egyptians were pasty pale with hazel eyes. deeceevoice 16:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Gee, still nothing about skin color??!!!! :p deeceevoice 16:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
This article appears to have been written by someone too leery/PC to make any clear, definitive conclusions. The author of this article toys around with defining/refuting the concept of "race" rather than making any distinctions. Furthermore, this article actually appears to give credence to the possibility that Egyptians were black- a foolish idea that is already beyond refutation. Also not show is the picture of Ramses II's mummy ( http://www.geocities.com/enbp/eg_pics.html), which has Mediterranean features. -- Pewpewlazers 07:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Apparently, there is at least one editor who seems confused about the nature of POV and NPOV. I've replaced the inappropriate NPOV tags with "balance" tags. deeceevoice 13:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've reinserted the "balance" tags. POV indicates the insertion of groundless personal opinion. Unless and until specific passages are identified in the article as it stands that misrepresent facts, then the POV tags do not apply. And even then, I would argue that those passages either need to be flagged with "fact" notations and discussed. If documentation of the information cannot be provided, then it needs to go. From what I've read, the problem here is one of balance -- not of factuality. The information provided appears, by and large, to be reasonably presented and adequately sourced. If there is a passage that is not, then raise the matter here so that it can be discussed. Plastering the article with POV tags with no real explanation is inappropriate. Those who seek to have an alternative viewpoint represented -- which is fitting and proper -- should present that information so that the "balance" tags then can be removed. . If no such information is provided, then it may be assumed that there is no credible, countervailing information, the result being the eventual removal of the "balance" tags deeceevoice 16:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've added several sources that attest to Egypt as a mixed-race society, with a variety of skin colors. These are all scientific and modern, and represent the common view of scientists who study Egypt. I challenge you to find one mainstream Egyptologist who thinks the Egyptians were not a mixed-race society. I also added some middle-eastern looking faces from ancient egyptian art. Thanks, -- Urthogie 16:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Anything else you want to bring up?-- Urthogie 21:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Ancient Egyptians themselves traced their origin to a land they called " Punt" (pwnt), or ta nṯrw (read "Ta Netcherew"), the "Land of the Gods". Punt is thought to have been located near the Somali border and northern Ethiopia, [1] lands occupied in ancient times and today by indigenous, black African peoples.
In Libya, which is mostly desert and oasis, there is a visible Negroid element in the sedentary populations, and at the same is true of the Fellahin of Egypt, whether Copt or Muslim. Osteological studies have shown that the Negroid element was stronger in predynastic times than at present, reflecting an early movement northward along the banks of the Nile, which were then heavily forested.. [2]
Fellahin, in fact, is the name Arabs traditionally gave to the indigenous peoples of the lands they conquered. The term means tiller or peasant.
I'll keep it removed until you prove that these problems either don't exist or aren't significant enough to warrant removal. Please don't revert until you've attempted to discuss this.-- Urthogie 19:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
In all fairness Urthogie I think you should have to prove why he is wrong and his statements should be removed. Unless you want an edit war unilateral edits are not wise especially when everyone seemed to agree prior to your arrival that it was true. Now I'm not saying your wrong all I am saying is that to keep order and procedure you should be the one who disproves what is already in the article and whoever wnats to keep it in should have a chance to rebute that argument and we can go with the better argument.
My personal opnion is that anicent egyptians may not have come from ethiopia but they did seem to believe based on the britannia source that they came from south of where they were living. Furthermore I would consider britanntan dictionary to be a pretty reputable choice because this is prior to the period when you could right a book with pc self censorship
Racial characteristics of ancient Egyptians. If its controversial, that can be stated. It just seems to me like theres more to it than controversy-- there's also uncontroversial research performed all the time.-- Urthogie 20:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
A wall relief of Puntite royalty reveals a dark-brown-skinned king and queen, the latter exhibiting the characteristic attributes of a Khoisan woman. Commerce existed between Egypt and Punt, with Egyptian royalty mounting expeditions to what they regarded as their ancestral home. Among the items they brought back were whole trees of myrrh and other species, aromatic woods, incense, leopards, monkeys, ivory, ebony, panther hides, cinnamon, and gum.
It's OR to include this in a section called "Research" if noone has actually researched this and linked it to the race of ancient egyptians. It could still be included in the afrocentrism section, though, even if it isn't formally researched. DC, anyone else, do you know of any reason why its not original research to include this in a section called "Research"? Thanks, -- Urthogie 20:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if I spelled these right, -- Urthogie 21:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie. Herodotus, Aristotle and Jean-François Champollion wrote before the falsification of the history of ancient Egypt. Herodotus is considered to be the father of history. He said that the Egyptians have black skin and wooly hair. Aristotle is said to be the father of natural sciences. He said that the Egyptians like the Ethiopians (the Nubians) are very black. Champollion is said to be the father of Egyptology. He said that the Egyptians look like the Nubians! There is even more. The Bible - a book from the Semite people - put Misraïm (Egypt) and Cush (Nubia) under a common ancestor, Cham. Manetho, the Egyptian-priest and historian put together Memphis, This and Ethiopia. Is it by chance? Do you know, Urthogie, that the very first Egyptian nome is Nubia? "Sti: Ta-Sti, Nubia, properly Ist nome of Upper Egypt; Styw Nubians" says Gardiner in its Egyptian Grammar, p. 593. Yes, Ta Sti is the first nome of Egypt because the Egyptians are from the south. Herodotus agrees with that when he says that long ago the Delta was under water. But the Egyptians existed since there are human beings. Their home was in the south. In those ancient times, this south was inhabited only by the black race. I don't think that you have another theory about that. Plutarque mentions also in one of his numerous works that Egyptians considered themselves as being people of the southern world. If they were mixed people, they could never speak like that, and go so far as to call themselves "kmt" which litteraly means the "Blacks". I repeat, "Kmt" doesn't mean "people of the black land" as states the article. There is no determinative of the land in those hieroglyphs for the people. Urthogie, if you know a bit of the Egyptian language, you can see this by yourself. I insist, about the Egyptian nomes, there is none in Europe or in Asia. All of them are in Africa, and the first of them is Nubia. This is simple fact. Finally, let's indicate that according to Diodore de Sicile, the Ethiopians (Nubians) say that the Egyptians are their descendants. As you can see, the ancient sources speak the same language. Modern Egyptologists, I put it also forward yesterday, avoid carefully to mention them. But in other fields, and you know that well, the ancient writers from Greece especially are considered to be the founders. Why not in Egyptology? There is surely something wrong with the kind of Egyptology promoted in the West. It is inaccurate, yet arrogant! How long is it going to last? (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.110.156.38 ( talk) 22:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
Urthogie. I am not closing the dialogue. Imagine when I began writing my last message your response to my previous remarks was not visible on my screen. Sorry for the repetition. This page is made for discussion. And that's what I am trying to do.
Peace and good luck to you Urthogie! (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).
Based on the evidence in this article and elsewhere it is incontrovertible that blacks or dark skinned people were present in Ancient Egypt. What is controversial is the who when what where or how. I think this should emphasized. "The mixed race society" is an oversimplification and appears to dilute the influence that blacks had on Ancient Egypt. Muntuwandi 06:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Ditto. Clearly, for much of its existence, dynastic Egypt was overwhelmingly black and African. The text you suggest actually was in one iteration of the article. And, certainly, until several centuries after Arab domination in the 7th century A.D., it remained clearly black and African in predominant part. (Indeed, it remains so today; it is merely a society of blacks heavily miscegenated with Arab blood and Arabs to the north, with most of the populations in the south retaining their clearly Africoid physical characteristics and syncretic religious and cultural beliefs, with holdovers from pharonic times. deeceevoice 14:07, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
No he's right. Early dynast was clearly black. People emphisaize the mixed race thing(which happened later WAY after Egypt was fully realised)just to dilude the fact that Egyptian culture was a black culture.
--
Vehgah
08:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Best regards! (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.110.156.38 ( talk) 16:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC).
[18]. Taharqa was also a black african king.
It's been pointed out that our timeline is basically limited to the dynastic Egyptians. Should we formalize this limitation, and make it clear in the lead that the article only deals with those Egyptians who actually had a sedentary civilization, or actually break it by including info on pre-dynastic egypt? It seems to me like what afrocentrists, eurocentrists, and even scientists are mainly concerned about as far as race in egypt was dynastic egypt. However, the afrocentrists might also be gleeful to learn that the early pre-dynastic Egyptians would likely be considered black today. So what are the thoughts on this?-- Urthogie 06:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Peace to you Urthogie, and thank you very much for the sharing of ideas. (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.110.156.38 ( talk) 10:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC).
Dear Urthogie.
The actual scientific consensus you were speaking about, Urthogie, according to which Egypt is a mixed society, meaning Mediterranean, Asian and African, is very weak. (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
Since there was still some ongoing editing (albiet among adminstrators) I've lifted the protection. If anyone edit wars any further, leave a note on my talk page and you'll get see a block for disruption quick-smart. - brenneman 23:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Egypt = Mixed Race Society seems to be what scientific evidence supports, contrary to white racists and the afrocentrists. Good job wikipedia on a great page. Peace,
--winatchess
Enriquecardova, I see you have returned to this article today. Unfortunately you don't appear to have used the time away to read the talk page or the manual of style, as you are still making major, largely unformatted, additions to this controversial article without discussing it here.
I'm not sure why we need a Scholarly Dissent heading in an article about a Controversy. It mostly either covers ground already adequately discussed in Wikipedia's Race article, or contains information that would be better-suited to the article's Anthropology subsection. In particular, the Luigi Cavalli-Sforza information is duplicated within the article.
Today's Frank Yurco-related additions appear to represent a fairly mainstream view - in fact this Egyptologist is probably notable enough for his own Wiki article in which more detail could be expounded upon his theories. The information could then be summed up in a somewhat less verbose way in this article under Anthropology. StoptheDatabaseState 16:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is looking much better with the latest changes. StoptheDatabaseState 11:41, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Nebakneil, resurfacing to work his bogus double game with "other" accounts, alleges that the S. Keita reference casts no doubt on use of catch-all categories like Mediterranean or Middle Eastern to define racial categories. Passages used by Keita were quoted in full earlier. Nebakneil removed them. Now he develops a mysterious memory lapse and says that the reference really don't say what they said earlier. What a dumb game. No one is being fooled. He can use tags or "good cop, bad cop" routines under "other" user accounts, but his game is growing stale. Can't you people be more creative? Very well, here are the quotations again. Its just a simple matter of copy and paste. The old version is on hard disk. Once again, the BS, obstructionist, tag splashing approach being used by certain people is being exposed. If we are going to play at an "academic" approach, then I too must reevaluate the use of the King Tut picture per Wikipedia guidelines, as other editors will no doubt do.
Nebakneil removed the quotes below earlier. Now he says they really didn't say what they said earlier :)lol - people please- give me some better comedy ...
"Nebakneil" also claims that quotations from mainstream scholar Yurco "POV". Duh. His tactics is to put tags by everything in an attempt to get what he doesn't like removed. His bogus AFD request was in similar vein It is obvious that scholars have differng points of view. is there any scholar that doesn't have one? The proper Wikipedia approach is comparing Yurco to ANOTHER scholar so an objective comparison can be made. But Nebakneil and his "other" accounts remember, removed such comparions. Now, piously, he laments about "POV" by some scholars, after earlier removing the comparisons. lol.. Doesn't this BS approach get tiring for you people? comedy people, comedy, gimme a better routine..
First, I would like to inform you that English is not my native language so forgive my grammatical errors.
This is regarding Kemets ethnicity
This message is to all researchers of ancient Kemet. The ethnicity of ancient Egyptians is of an Ethiopian. A lot of you get confused of what is “BLACK”. The fact that there were and are two main “Black” complexions in ancient kemet or Cush is confusing for the so called white and African American history students. The very dark black natives of that area are known as the “Aiye-oakes” or “Gam-bella” and they can be found today leaving in the western parts of Ethiopia and the Durfur regions of Sudan. The less dark black natives of that area are generally known as the Habeshas. The Habeshas are the Eritreans and Ethiopians. A lot of you history researchers don’t have enough information about the region and are usually writing or trying to understand an old culture based on solely books. If you are really serious about learning or finding out the true identity of ancient Egypt, then try learning a bit of Tigrinya , Amharic or geez (the older version of the two languages) and you will see that most of the names of ancient Egyptian city’s , kings , queens are very Ethiopic. I don’t even know how to read Hieroglyphics (has been done already for me ….. thank god) but without even reading the explanation of what the names mean I can tell you accurately what they mean, due to my understanding of these two languages.
Most of you whether you are white or black don’t seem to be interested in the history of kmt but are mostly interested in the politics. When there is nothing to politicize. Your goal seems mostly to proof that you had a CIVILIZATION or to proof that they (“Blacks”) were not part of the greatest CIVILIZATION of all time... I definitely understand the frustration of most of the arguments coming from black researchers, but in regard to some and very some white researcher’s comments, it is very clear, it only has one purpose, i.e. to continue the distortion of African or Kemets History. But, as I said if you are serious about learning kmts, history learn the above two languages and you will be so amazed how fast your learning of kemet will be facilitated.
History is for all of us. It’s not a black or white or yellow or red history.
IT’S OUR STORY, HUMANS. SO PLEASE LEARN IT WITH AN OPEN MIND.
Regards,
Tariku
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tariku"
This picture[ [1]] says it all.
Egyptians characterized Negroes as another race, different than themselves. See Book of Gates.
Even sillier and more pathetic is the claim that the AEs were somehow "ancestors" of American blacks. SveinForkbeard 13:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear SveinForkbeard. Like other Eurocentrists, you are trying to amuse people using your own fantasies. The brown-color of the skin of the Egyptian is caracteristic of the black race, in the same way is the dark-color of the Nubian. I see that you have never visited Africa. So, don't speak about things you don't know well. Now, if the "Egyptian were not black", why according to you did Herodotous say that the Egyptians have black skin and wooly hair? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you did Herodotous and Basil Davidson say that the Egyptians occupied their soil from the south, meaning from Nubia? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you did Aristotle say that the Egyptians like the Ethiopians are very dark? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you did Plutarque say that the Egyptians consider themselves as being southerners? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you did Plutarque report that the Egyptians are offspring of Osiris, a black-skin-god? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you did the Bible put Misraim (Egypt) and Kush (Nubia) under a common ancestor Ham? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you Erman and Ranke did write that the people who most resemble the Egyptians are the Nubians? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you did they consider the south of their country as the country of their origin, and the country of the gods? If the "Egyptians were not black", why according to you did they call themselves kmt(rmT), meaning "the Black people"?, and their country kmmiw(niwt), meaning "the country of the Black people"? I think that you know nothing or just a little about African civilizations. To begin with, please watch the "4 Online videos by Basil Davidson" in www.homestead.com/wysinger/ancientafrica.html (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).
First, I would like to inform you that English is not my native language so forgive my grammatical errors.
This is regarding Kemets ethnicity
This message is to all researchers of ancient Kemet. The ethnicity of ancient Egyptians is of an Ethiopian. A lot of you get confused of what is “BLACK”. The fact that there were and are two main “Black” complexions in ancient kemet or Cush is confusing for the so called white and African American history students. The very dark black natives of that area are known as the “Aiye-oakes” or “Gam-bella” and they can be found today leaving in the western parts of Ethiopia and the Durfur regions of Sudan. The less dark black natives of that area are generally known as the Habeshas. The Habeshas are the Eritreans and Ethiopians. A lot of you history researchers don’t have enough information about the region and are usually writing or trying to understand an old culture based on solely books. If you are really serious about learning or finding out the true identity of ancient Egypt, then try learning a bit of Tigrinya , Amharic or geez (the older version of the two languages) and you will see that most of the names of ancient Egyptian city’s , kings , queens are very Ethiopic. I don’t even know how to read Hieroglyphics (has been done already for me ….. thank god) but without even reading the explanation of what the names mean I can tell you accurately what they mean, due to my understanding of these two languages.
Most of you whether you are white or black don’t seem to be interested in the history of kmt but are mostly interested in the politics. When there is nothing to politicize. Your goal seems mostly to proof that you had a CIVILIZATION or to proof that they (“Blacks”) were not part of the greatest CIVILIZATION of all time... I definitely understand the frustration of most of the arguments coming from black researchers, but in regard to some and very some white researcher’s comments, it is very clear, it only has one purpose, i.e. to continue the distortion of African or Kemets History. But, as I said if you are serious about learning kmts, history learn the above two languages and you will be so amazed how fast your learning of kemet will be facilitated.
History is for all of us. It’s not a black or white or yellow or red history.
IT’S OUR STORY, HUMANS. SO PLEASE LEARN IT WITH AN OPEN MIND.
Regards,
Tariku
Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tariku"
Are ancient Egyptians "ancestors" of African Americans? Oh, yes! Mr SveinForkbeard doesn't know well African history, but he is making comments about it. African traditions, especially among the Western African populations and among the so called Bantou speaking people report the migrations from Egypt. The Kikuyu in Kenya, indicating the north, say that they came from "Kana". This word reminds us "Kmt". In Senegal and Gambia, people have records of their migrations from Egypt. Scholars like Cheikh Anta Diop, Aboubacry Moussa Lam, Théophile Obenga confirm in their investigations what people know from their traditions. Lam in particular wrote a book on "De l'origine égyptienne des Peuls". In another book, "Les chemins du Nil", he showed how Egypt is present through out Africa. After Diop, Lam thinks that it is the invasion of Egypt by the Persians which provoked those migrations we are talking about. Obenga states that "l'Afrique profonde, précoloniale est la dispersion culturelle de l'Egypte ancienne à travers le continent noir". "Kmt" survives in words like "Kongo", "Ghana", "Kumbi Saleh (Saleh = srx = the throne of Horus), "Tur Kana (Tur = ta wr = great country)", "Khemi", "Bughanda", "Kong"... Now, I hope that you know the story of the European Atlantic Slave Trade. Europeans uprooted Africans mainly from Western and Central Africa, the home of the descendants of the ancient Egyptians. That is why the African Americans are normal heir, along with other Africans of the legacy of ancient Egypt. Mr SveinForkbeard, if you visit Africa, you might come out saying like David Livingstone that the Angolans, by their way of weaving, and of making their hair, remind us the ancient Egyptians as we can see them in the London Museum! (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).
Im tired of people using that one picture to describe the egyptians. I see that picture and raise you the thousands upon thousands more of AFRICAN looking Egyptians. I would also like to argue that The Egyptians are depicted as darker than me.....and I would be considered black. -- Vehgah 08:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
"And 40% of Ethiopians are Arab genetically. Minorcorrections"
"Hahaha, any evidence (reliable sources, not thread posts in forums about skyscrapers)? I didn't think so (see Semino et al 2004 and Kivisild et al 2004 for Ethiopian and Arab DNA). Yom" "Maternally, Ethiopian genes are entirely of local origin. Yom"
Yom is exposed by his barefaced lies. He says that his studies say Ehtiopian maternal genes don't have Caucasoid admixture. Kivisild [2]
Maternal lineages of Semitic- (Amharic, Tigrinya, and Gurage) and Cushitic- (Oromo and Afar) speaking populations studied here reveal that their mtDNA pool is a nearly equal composite of sub-Saharan and western Eurasian lineages. This finding, consistent with classic genetic-marker studies (Cavalli-Sforza 1997) and previous mtDNA results, is also in agreement with a similarly high proportion of western Asian Y chromosomes in Ethiopians (Passarino et al. 1998; Semino et al. 2002), which supports the view (Richards et al. 2003) that the observed admixture between sub-Saharan African and, most probably, western Asian ancestors of the Ethiopian populations applies to their gene pool in general.
What kind of deception is Yom operating under here? Since Yom has now been exposed for his lies, can we say Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire. 207.195.254.202 19:52, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't think the question or not should be if the Egyptians were black it should really be how black were they. There are too many descriptions of the Egyptians being described as black and dark and wooly haired to say that they were not black. Heck even a visit to stormfront.org and you will see that they even acknowledge that many of ancient egyptians were black but they dispute the time when they were black. I think I might have to agree with the afrocentrist because if a white supreamacist website acknowledges a black influence in Egypt then I would be worse than a white supreamcy if I did not acknowledge it, especially with all the evidence. Even after my question no one has really proved that the egyptians were white or not black. I saw that picture with the nubian and the syria, and libyan and egyptian. The Nubian was black in skin color the egytian was reddish brown and the other two relatively white. Now if ancient egyptians were white they should have the same skin color as the syrians. Odds are the ancient egyptians had the facial characteristics of Nubians but the skin color of Ethiopians. As for the arguement that ancient egyptians are the ancestors of african americans, well that is a bit farfetched imo
This article has been severly truncated from the original articles and has been replaced with a lot unrelated material. what happened to the sphinx.
Enough. I've seen a lot of personal attacks, things like accusing others of being "liars", unfounded sockpuppeting jabs, and debate over the controversy itself. I was going to remove these as personal attacks, but it would take me quite a while, and would probably start a useless edit war. In the interest of policy, and of keeping this page relevant to article improvement, I would like to propose the following guidelines for this page for all editors:
Some of this is already policy, some of it isn't. But can all sides agree, from this point forward, to uphold these and discuss the article, not arguing over the merits of its topic? -- W o o ty Woot? contribs 03:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok, first off none of the notable sources in this section are afrocentrists. Secondly, its original research to claim their work is afrocentric. Thirdly, its original research to even claim that the afrocentric "argument" has any place in science whatsoever. Science simply produces theories. If some famous afrocentrist says that science has made afrocentric conclusions, we can quote them as saying that in a section called "Opinions", or something along those lines. The current content should be dispersed to other sections. I've placed an original research template on it, and I think it should be moved to other sections. I plan on keeping it there until this issue is discussed and a resolution is reached.-- Urthogie 00:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
The section could do with some work but still has some important insights that should not be left out of this article. Muntuwandi 05:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Rather than, IMO, irrationally target an entire section for removal, treat the subject text as one would any other text. An editor should identify specific passages that he or she finds problematic and address them on their merits (or purported lack thereof). This same approach should be taken toward subsequent edits, as well -- notably my last round of edits --rather than wholesale reversion (by Urthogie) with an absolutely meaningless edit note about "afrocentrists" which is neither informative nor germane. deeceevoice 15:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the "huge changes" were made earlier -- when this information was gutted from the article without justification. Again, you must cite specific passages with which you take issue. Reverting text wholesale, gutting passages and reinserting bullsh*t disinformation from a Stormfront website, as well as a blatant, flimsy and wholly unsourced mischaracterization of mainstream opinion w/regard to the skin color of ancient Egyptians ---- which is what you did -- is not the way to improve the article. deeceevoice 18:11, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, the so-called "afrocentric opinions" you refer to are information that is the result of credible and rigorous research by well-regarded academicians and historians (mainstream and otherwise), and are supported by ample evidence, as reported in the article. Despite your opinion, information which supports an afrocentric perspective is not, ipso facto POV; it is what it is. deeceevoice 18:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
If you hadn't heard, immature, snide remarks should be dispensed with. And I'm still awaiting specific passages and your objections. deeceevoice 18:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
That relatively minor change was simply an attempt to address the matter of the subhead in labeling the information as "afrocentrist." An earlier version of this article split the issue artificially, eurocentrists versus afrocentrists -- in effect, erecting strawmen. Clearly, there is much mainstream, non-black, non-afrocentrist scholarship that supports the afrocentrist take on ancient dynastic Egypt. Pigeonholing and mischaracterizing information from, say, Herodotus and Petrie, the Father of Egyptology, as "afrocentrist", rather than merely as the result of objective observation and research is misleading and, depending on one's perspective, simply an ad hominem attack approach to the matter ("afrocentrist" being treated as pejorative term in some circles). If you have a suggestion for alternative wording, then advance it for consideration. And "blatant lie"? Refrain from such accusatory language. Your actions and attitude exhibited herein (and elsewhere lately) are not helpful to the project. deeceevoice 18:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I abandoned this article in disgust some time ago, after much of the useful, interesting information had been gutted. If you check back to some of the earlier versions, countevailing information was, indeed, presented. I haven't focused on readding that stuff; it's not my interest, but you're certainly welcome to dig it up. Much of the heavy lifting in that regard already has been done. If you'd like to start another, work page for the article for review/discussion/debate before drastically restructuring the current article, that's fine with me, too. But I have focused on correcting errors and deleting racist disinformation from Stormfront-related websites frontin' like scholarship and will not tolerate you or anyone else continuing to reinsert it into the article. deeceevoice 18:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Letters to newspapers, comments on blogs, etc. are not notable unless the person themself is notable in the given field. Otherwise, only the content of the publication is considered notable.-- Urthogie 20:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Sheldon Peck is a college professor -- at the time, at Harvard University -- and published [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]. His opinions on related subject matter should be, and are, considered authoritative -- hence the publication of his letter in the NYT and works in multiple scholarly journals and other venues. The information is restored. deeceevoice 00:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The above statement is misleading. Prof. Peck made no statement whatsoever about ancient peoples. He commented solely on the craniofacial characteristics of the Giza Sphinx -- a subject fully within his training, education and expertise. The statement will be restored. deeceevoice 13:04, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
DCV apparently replaced a paragraph of the lead describing the mainstream scholarly consensus with a sentence describing what Afrocentrists claim the evidence shows. I restored the old lead, and also the picture, which (whether you like it or not) is extremely revelant to the discussion, and represents scientifically derived conclusions. DCV, just want to remind you that an encyclopedia doesn't exist to synthesize truth, but rather to organize and present what reliable sources say ( Wikipedia:No original research). Discuss before reverting me, please. Thanks, -- Urthogie 01:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
The mainstream scholarly opinion is that the Egyptians were primarily a light-skinned to brown-skinned group of people with features that resembled more a multiracial society leaning more towards an appearance that is alluded to in the scientific attempt to reconstruct the facial likeness of Tutankhamun which appeared on the cover of National Geographic in 2005.
With regard to the text in question, there is no singular, mainstream consensus regarding a prevalent skin color of the ancient Egyptians. Nor is there a consensus as to when and to what the degree there was purported "racial" admixture among the population. The so-called indigenous "Caucasoid"s of North Africa were/are black peoples, as were the Abssyinians/Ethiopians/Eritreans, the Sudanese (Kushites) and the other Nilotic peoples of the region, with the Arabs not present to any great degree until the 7th century A.D. Lotsa luck with finding a reputable source that asserts, as this editor tried to, that the ancient Egyptians were pasty pale with hazel eyes. deeceevoice 16:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Gee, still nothing about skin color??!!!! :p deeceevoice 16:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
This article appears to have been written by someone too leery/PC to make any clear, definitive conclusions. The author of this article toys around with defining/refuting the concept of "race" rather than making any distinctions. Furthermore, this article actually appears to give credence to the possibility that Egyptians were black- a foolish idea that is already beyond refutation. Also not show is the picture of Ramses II's mummy ( http://www.geocities.com/enbp/eg_pics.html), which has Mediterranean features. -- Pewpewlazers 07:08, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Apparently, there is at least one editor who seems confused about the nature of POV and NPOV. I've replaced the inappropriate NPOV tags with "balance" tags. deeceevoice 13:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've reinserted the "balance" tags. POV indicates the insertion of groundless personal opinion. Unless and until specific passages are identified in the article as it stands that misrepresent facts, then the POV tags do not apply. And even then, I would argue that those passages either need to be flagged with "fact" notations and discussed. If documentation of the information cannot be provided, then it needs to go. From what I've read, the problem here is one of balance -- not of factuality. The information provided appears, by and large, to be reasonably presented and adequately sourced. If there is a passage that is not, then raise the matter here so that it can be discussed. Plastering the article with POV tags with no real explanation is inappropriate. Those who seek to have an alternative viewpoint represented -- which is fitting and proper -- should present that information so that the "balance" tags then can be removed. . If no such information is provided, then it may be assumed that there is no credible, countervailing information, the result being the eventual removal of the "balance" tags deeceevoice 16:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I've added several sources that attest to Egypt as a mixed-race society, with a variety of skin colors. These are all scientific and modern, and represent the common view of scientists who study Egypt. I challenge you to find one mainstream Egyptologist who thinks the Egyptians were not a mixed-race society. I also added some middle-eastern looking faces from ancient egyptian art. Thanks, -- Urthogie 16:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Anything else you want to bring up?-- Urthogie 21:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Ancient Egyptians themselves traced their origin to a land they called " Punt" (pwnt), or ta nṯrw (read "Ta Netcherew"), the "Land of the Gods". Punt is thought to have been located near the Somali border and northern Ethiopia, [1] lands occupied in ancient times and today by indigenous, black African peoples.
In Libya, which is mostly desert and oasis, there is a visible Negroid element in the sedentary populations, and at the same is true of the Fellahin of Egypt, whether Copt or Muslim. Osteological studies have shown that the Negroid element was stronger in predynastic times than at present, reflecting an early movement northward along the banks of the Nile, which were then heavily forested.. [2]
Fellahin, in fact, is the name Arabs traditionally gave to the indigenous peoples of the lands they conquered. The term means tiller or peasant.
I'll keep it removed until you prove that these problems either don't exist or aren't significant enough to warrant removal. Please don't revert until you've attempted to discuss this.-- Urthogie 19:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
In all fairness Urthogie I think you should have to prove why he is wrong and his statements should be removed. Unless you want an edit war unilateral edits are not wise especially when everyone seemed to agree prior to your arrival that it was true. Now I'm not saying your wrong all I am saying is that to keep order and procedure you should be the one who disproves what is already in the article and whoever wnats to keep it in should have a chance to rebute that argument and we can go with the better argument.
My personal opnion is that anicent egyptians may not have come from ethiopia but they did seem to believe based on the britannia source that they came from south of where they were living. Furthermore I would consider britanntan dictionary to be a pretty reputable choice because this is prior to the period when you could right a book with pc self censorship
Racial characteristics of ancient Egyptians. If its controversial, that can be stated. It just seems to me like theres more to it than controversy-- there's also uncontroversial research performed all the time.-- Urthogie 20:51, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
A wall relief of Puntite royalty reveals a dark-brown-skinned king and queen, the latter exhibiting the characteristic attributes of a Khoisan woman. Commerce existed between Egypt and Punt, with Egyptian royalty mounting expeditions to what they regarded as their ancestral home. Among the items they brought back were whole trees of myrrh and other species, aromatic woods, incense, leopards, monkeys, ivory, ebony, panther hides, cinnamon, and gum.
It's OR to include this in a section called "Research" if noone has actually researched this and linked it to the race of ancient egyptians. It could still be included in the afrocentrism section, though, even if it isn't formally researched. DC, anyone else, do you know of any reason why its not original research to include this in a section called "Research"? Thanks, -- Urthogie 20:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if I spelled these right, -- Urthogie 21:02, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Urthogie. Herodotus, Aristotle and Jean-François Champollion wrote before the falsification of the history of ancient Egypt. Herodotus is considered to be the father of history. He said that the Egyptians have black skin and wooly hair. Aristotle is said to be the father of natural sciences. He said that the Egyptians like the Ethiopians (the Nubians) are very black. Champollion is said to be the father of Egyptology. He said that the Egyptians look like the Nubians! There is even more. The Bible - a book from the Semite people - put Misraïm (Egypt) and Cush (Nubia) under a common ancestor, Cham. Manetho, the Egyptian-priest and historian put together Memphis, This and Ethiopia. Is it by chance? Do you know, Urthogie, that the very first Egyptian nome is Nubia? "Sti: Ta-Sti, Nubia, properly Ist nome of Upper Egypt; Styw Nubians" says Gardiner in its Egyptian Grammar, p. 593. Yes, Ta Sti is the first nome of Egypt because the Egyptians are from the south. Herodotus agrees with that when he says that long ago the Delta was under water. But the Egyptians existed since there are human beings. Their home was in the south. In those ancient times, this south was inhabited only by the black race. I don't think that you have another theory about that. Plutarque mentions also in one of his numerous works that Egyptians considered themselves as being people of the southern world. If they were mixed people, they could never speak like that, and go so far as to call themselves "kmt" which litteraly means the "Blacks". I repeat, "Kmt" doesn't mean "people of the black land" as states the article. There is no determinative of the land in those hieroglyphs for the people. Urthogie, if you know a bit of the Egyptian language, you can see this by yourself. I insist, about the Egyptian nomes, there is none in Europe or in Asia. All of them are in Africa, and the first of them is Nubia. This is simple fact. Finally, let's indicate that according to Diodore de Sicile, the Ethiopians (Nubians) say that the Egyptians are their descendants. As you can see, the ancient sources speak the same language. Modern Egyptologists, I put it also forward yesterday, avoid carefully to mention them. But in other fields, and you know that well, the ancient writers from Greece especially are considered to be the founders. Why not in Egyptology? There is surely something wrong with the kind of Egyptology promoted in the West. It is inaccurate, yet arrogant! How long is it going to last? (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.110.156.38 ( talk) 22:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC).
Urthogie. I am not closing the dialogue. Imagine when I began writing my last message your response to my previous remarks was not visible on my screen. Sorry for the repetition. This page is made for discussion. And that's what I am trying to do.
Peace and good luck to you Urthogie! (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).
Based on the evidence in this article and elsewhere it is incontrovertible that blacks or dark skinned people were present in Ancient Egypt. What is controversial is the who when what where or how. I think this should emphasized. "The mixed race society" is an oversimplification and appears to dilute the influence that blacks had on Ancient Egypt. Muntuwandi 06:34, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Ditto. Clearly, for much of its existence, dynastic Egypt was overwhelmingly black and African. The text you suggest actually was in one iteration of the article. And, certainly, until several centuries after Arab domination in the 7th century A.D., it remained clearly black and African in predominant part. (Indeed, it remains so today; it is merely a society of blacks heavily miscegenated with Arab blood and Arabs to the north, with most of the populations in the south retaining their clearly Africoid physical characteristics and syncretic religious and cultural beliefs, with holdovers from pharonic times. deeceevoice 14:07, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
No he's right. Early dynast was clearly black. People emphisaize the mixed race thing(which happened later WAY after Egypt was fully realised)just to dilude the fact that Egyptian culture was a black culture.
--
Vehgah
08:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Best regards! (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.110.156.38 ( talk) 16:22, 27 January 2007 (UTC).
[18]. Taharqa was also a black african king.
It's been pointed out that our timeline is basically limited to the dynastic Egyptians. Should we formalize this limitation, and make it clear in the lead that the article only deals with those Egyptians who actually had a sedentary civilization, or actually break it by including info on pre-dynastic egypt? It seems to me like what afrocentrists, eurocentrists, and even scientists are mainly concerned about as far as race in egypt was dynastic egypt. However, the afrocentrists might also be gleeful to learn that the early pre-dynastic Egyptians would likely be considered black today. So what are the thoughts on this?-- Urthogie 06:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Peace to you Urthogie, and thank you very much for the sharing of ideas. (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.110.156.38 ( talk) 10:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC).
Dear Urthogie.
The actual scientific consensus you were speaking about, Urthogie, according to which Egypt is a mixed society, meaning Mediterranean, Asian and African, is very weak. (Lusala lu ne Nkuka Luka).