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It is currently under dispute as to what the content and subject of this article should consist of. The main point of contention seems to be as to whether this article should center on the race/ethnicity of the Ancient Egyptians or if it should focus on controversy surrounding this.
It is fairly well established that the northern part of Egypt was a mixing pot of Middle Eastern and Black African with the Southern and Eastern part being Nubian. The Northern part was routinely invade and brought in people from every part of the Empire to work on their extensive construction. I like splitting the postings so that the information that is relevant gets out there. Ultimately the race of the people and whether or not they were light brown or dark brown skin matters less than their contributions to society. ( Aethercracker ( talk) 02:28, 23 July 2008 (UTC))
I think we should include Maiherpri (he was Egyptian noble from Nubian background) papyrus in the discussion, Maiherpri papyrus show him offering to the Gods and whilst he is shown with the normal profile of men of the period, his skin is painted dark brown rather than the usual red ochre and his hair is shown as being short and curly. This papyrus clearly shows how different skin colors were accurately depicted and that a darker skin was the exception rather than the rule. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiherpri -- Anubis233 ( talk) 01:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
This is Wikipedia. Not essay-pedia. This is classic {{ essay-entry}} stuff. I agree with it, actually, but it just doesn't belong here. Sorry. See also WP:SYNTH. Moreschi ( talk) ( debate) 22:13, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, probably it is to much to ask a newcomer to an article to read up on a long discussion like this. On the other hand, with all those disputed notices, etc. around I wonder why at least the attempt to do this is not even made. Anyway, if'd read thea rchives, you would finde this comment by User:John Carter: "The numerous previous discussions regarding this article, and the ArbCom, came to that conclusion, that this article is about the current controversy, yes." Based on my knowledge on Nazi and related ideology I had added a section on why this question is so controversial. The whole point is that the controversy is not about facts. Seriously, if it was about facts the Nordicists could not have attempted to deny that the ancient Egyptians had a darker skin colour then the Northern Europeans. Only ideology that is completely detached from the facts would attempt such a thing. On the other hand: If 'white people' had not claimed that the ancient Egyptians were white, 'black people' would have no reason emphasize that the ancient Egpytians were black. This is the reason why I had added the stuff about the 'Nordic Egypt' at the top of the article. If you wan an article about *facts*, sorry, then this is the wrong place. Seriously, we should move a little content then to Origin of the Nilotic peoples and delete the remainder. The issue is notable, but apparently we will not be able to have an article on it, because we lack an editor the is able to write about it from a neutral perspective and willing to battle such a version through.
And especially: If you thing the race and culture section is to essayistic, please consider, that this is not an article about facts. An article on a controversy, on the other hand, has to give all viewpoints, give the arguments for and against them, and, to be useful for the reader, come to a weighted conclusion. wp:NPOV is a policy, and I am willing to brake all style guidelines to have an article that complies with it. This doesn't mean that you'd have to accept that section as it is, but you have to specify to which sentences you object and we can see how we can reword it. Zara1709 ( talk) 22:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey wouldn't it be cool if the gods came back and walked the earth. You know that would put and end to all this bickering. Well one would only hope it would.-- 204.118.241.234 ( talk) 21:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
So, I am actually attempting to rewrite the article. Of course, the efforts will be sabotaged if the edit war continues. But please consider this: I didn't remove any content at all (only a few lines that were redundant because the part on the languages had previously been debated in two different sections)! Before I would remove a section, I would discuss it here first. Furthermore, consider that the question whether the Nordicist's view should be included or not is a separate issue from the one of rewriting the article. If you are of the opinion that it shouldn't be included, we can discuss it here. But I think that there are good reasons for its inclusion. 1) It is notable as a minority view. Aside from wp:NPOV considerations: If we don't include it there will be occasional rants about "Nordic Egypt" on this talk page. 2) It is a perfect example of the ideological core of this controversy. It is even based on a first class academic source, a dissertation at a history department that even won an award (only drawback is, that it is in German.) 3) If there was no section on the Nordicist, one would have to explain the ideological content of the controversy on the basis of the dynastic race theory and the Hamitic hypothesis. There will be literature on this (most likely), but I wouldn't know where to find this, but more importantly one would be faced with the question whether these theories constitute scientific racism and then way we will never be able to get this article out of the dispute. For the Nordicists, this is clear and undisputed.
So, if we all attempt to write an encyclopaedia here and don't take concerns about an un-encyclopedic tone as a warrant for disruptive reverting, (feel free to use inline tags), I will continue the rewrite as soon as I find time. We can then move this article to Controversy about the race of ancient Egyptians and see if we can merge Origin of the Nilotic peoples. On the other hand, if you want to continue the edit war, you might achieve it that I withdraw from the article. But that won't help the article, I'd guess... Zara1709 ( talk) 23:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Other than essay-like writing, there is another issue that I have a problem with in this article.
The topic is "Race of Ancient Egyptians". Leaving aside racial biases, a reader may be actually interested in knowing the answer. If I found the answer to be "Caucasoid" I would think "great", if it was "Negroid" then I would think "wonderful". There are indeed readers who would like an objective answer to this question.
I think Zara brings into this article a number of fringe racist authors, whose usually "Nordicist" etc fringe views he then proceeds to criticize. My point is, should we even care about these fringe views?
Take for example an article on, say "The Origin of the Aids Virus". Should all fringe authors who believe that the Aids virus was created by the CIA to kill African-Americans feature on this article? Obviously not. Similarly I think we shouldn't give prominence to fringe racist views on the question of "Race of Ancient Egyptians" but rather concentrate on answering the question objectively citing scientific work.
LuxNevada ( talk) 09:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
LuxNevada ( talk) 05:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I am new here, with regards to adding content, and am not sure if I should make this suggestion here. Nevertheless, I would respectfully request that whoever is in charge of changing content for this article remove the pic with the Egyptians supposedly on the bottom. I am requesting that a more factual representation of the tomb drawing be posted in its place. This photo is to be found at this site:
http://manuampim.com/ramesesIII.htm
This page goes into detail concerning fradulent photos such as the one currently on the page of the "Race of the Ancient Egyptians" article. The current photo partially explains the controversy over this subject, as it is but one example of many frauds perpetrated to obscure the origins of the Kamites (you know them as Ancient Egyptians).
Moreover, the page shows the actual drawings from the tomb of Rameses III. IMO, it does not get more authentic than that, and the case is closed on this subject for myself. I just wanted to share knowledge with others who may be unaware of this.
Truthseeka ( talk) 18:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 |
It is currently under dispute as to what the content and subject of this article should consist of. The main point of contention seems to be as to whether this article should center on the race/ethnicity of the Ancient Egyptians or if it should focus on controversy surrounding this.
It is fairly well established that the northern part of Egypt was a mixing pot of Middle Eastern and Black African with the Southern and Eastern part being Nubian. The Northern part was routinely invade and brought in people from every part of the Empire to work on their extensive construction. I like splitting the postings so that the information that is relevant gets out there. Ultimately the race of the people and whether or not they were light brown or dark brown skin matters less than their contributions to society. ( Aethercracker ( talk) 02:28, 23 July 2008 (UTC))
I think we should include Maiherpri (he was Egyptian noble from Nubian background) papyrus in the discussion, Maiherpri papyrus show him offering to the Gods and whilst he is shown with the normal profile of men of the period, his skin is painted dark brown rather than the usual red ochre and his hair is shown as being short and curly. This papyrus clearly shows how different skin colors were accurately depicted and that a darker skin was the exception rather than the rule. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiherpri -- Anubis233 ( talk) 01:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
This is Wikipedia. Not essay-pedia. This is classic {{ essay-entry}} stuff. I agree with it, actually, but it just doesn't belong here. Sorry. See also WP:SYNTH. Moreschi ( talk) ( debate) 22:13, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, probably it is to much to ask a newcomer to an article to read up on a long discussion like this. On the other hand, with all those disputed notices, etc. around I wonder why at least the attempt to do this is not even made. Anyway, if'd read thea rchives, you would finde this comment by User:John Carter: "The numerous previous discussions regarding this article, and the ArbCom, came to that conclusion, that this article is about the current controversy, yes." Based on my knowledge on Nazi and related ideology I had added a section on why this question is so controversial. The whole point is that the controversy is not about facts. Seriously, if it was about facts the Nordicists could not have attempted to deny that the ancient Egyptians had a darker skin colour then the Northern Europeans. Only ideology that is completely detached from the facts would attempt such a thing. On the other hand: If 'white people' had not claimed that the ancient Egyptians were white, 'black people' would have no reason emphasize that the ancient Egpytians were black. This is the reason why I had added the stuff about the 'Nordic Egypt' at the top of the article. If you wan an article about *facts*, sorry, then this is the wrong place. Seriously, we should move a little content then to Origin of the Nilotic peoples and delete the remainder. The issue is notable, but apparently we will not be able to have an article on it, because we lack an editor the is able to write about it from a neutral perspective and willing to battle such a version through.
And especially: If you thing the race and culture section is to essayistic, please consider, that this is not an article about facts. An article on a controversy, on the other hand, has to give all viewpoints, give the arguments for and against them, and, to be useful for the reader, come to a weighted conclusion. wp:NPOV is a policy, and I am willing to brake all style guidelines to have an article that complies with it. This doesn't mean that you'd have to accept that section as it is, but you have to specify to which sentences you object and we can see how we can reword it. Zara1709 ( talk) 22:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey wouldn't it be cool if the gods came back and walked the earth. You know that would put and end to all this bickering. Well one would only hope it would.-- 204.118.241.234 ( talk) 21:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
So, I am actually attempting to rewrite the article. Of course, the efforts will be sabotaged if the edit war continues. But please consider this: I didn't remove any content at all (only a few lines that were redundant because the part on the languages had previously been debated in two different sections)! Before I would remove a section, I would discuss it here first. Furthermore, consider that the question whether the Nordicist's view should be included or not is a separate issue from the one of rewriting the article. If you are of the opinion that it shouldn't be included, we can discuss it here. But I think that there are good reasons for its inclusion. 1) It is notable as a minority view. Aside from wp:NPOV considerations: If we don't include it there will be occasional rants about "Nordic Egypt" on this talk page. 2) It is a perfect example of the ideological core of this controversy. It is even based on a first class academic source, a dissertation at a history department that even won an award (only drawback is, that it is in German.) 3) If there was no section on the Nordicist, one would have to explain the ideological content of the controversy on the basis of the dynastic race theory and the Hamitic hypothesis. There will be literature on this (most likely), but I wouldn't know where to find this, but more importantly one would be faced with the question whether these theories constitute scientific racism and then way we will never be able to get this article out of the dispute. For the Nordicists, this is clear and undisputed.
So, if we all attempt to write an encyclopaedia here and don't take concerns about an un-encyclopedic tone as a warrant for disruptive reverting, (feel free to use inline tags), I will continue the rewrite as soon as I find time. We can then move this article to Controversy about the race of ancient Egyptians and see if we can merge Origin of the Nilotic peoples. On the other hand, if you want to continue the edit war, you might achieve it that I withdraw from the article. But that won't help the article, I'd guess... Zara1709 ( talk) 23:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Other than essay-like writing, there is another issue that I have a problem with in this article.
The topic is "Race of Ancient Egyptians". Leaving aside racial biases, a reader may be actually interested in knowing the answer. If I found the answer to be "Caucasoid" I would think "great", if it was "Negroid" then I would think "wonderful". There are indeed readers who would like an objective answer to this question.
I think Zara brings into this article a number of fringe racist authors, whose usually "Nordicist" etc fringe views he then proceeds to criticize. My point is, should we even care about these fringe views?
Take for example an article on, say "The Origin of the Aids Virus". Should all fringe authors who believe that the Aids virus was created by the CIA to kill African-Americans feature on this article? Obviously not. Similarly I think we shouldn't give prominence to fringe racist views on the question of "Race of Ancient Egyptians" but rather concentrate on answering the question objectively citing scientific work.
LuxNevada ( talk) 09:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
LuxNevada ( talk) 05:41, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I am new here, with regards to adding content, and am not sure if I should make this suggestion here. Nevertheless, I would respectfully request that whoever is in charge of changing content for this article remove the pic with the Egyptians supposedly on the bottom. I am requesting that a more factual representation of the tomb drawing be posted in its place. This photo is to be found at this site:
http://manuampim.com/ramesesIII.htm
This page goes into detail concerning fradulent photos such as the one currently on the page of the "Race of the Ancient Egyptians" article. The current photo partially explains the controversy over this subject, as it is but one example of many frauds perpetrated to obscure the origins of the Kamites (you know them as Ancient Egyptians).
Moreover, the page shows the actual drawings from the tomb of Rameses III. IMO, it does not get more authentic than that, and the case is closed on this subject for myself. I just wanted to share knowledge with others who may be unaware of this.
Truthseeka ( talk) 18:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)