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People seems to inflate the Ashkenazi Jew IQ, I remember a few years ago, in this very article, it was standing at 115, but did not cite an acceptable source. So I modified the United States section however someone removed my contribution for "no reason": Many old studies such as that of Backman (1972), Levinson (1959) and Romanoff (1976) estimates Ashkenazi Jews to score above 0.75 to 1.0 standard deviations above the general European average in verbal or crystalized IQ, corresponding to an IQ 112-115. A recent review by Lynn (2004) however concludes that the advantage is slightly less, only half a standard deviation. [1] [2]
The earlier version was also by me, however this version is a lot more objective. The most extensive study also came to the same conclusion which is about 107.5 in verbal or crystalized IQ. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TrueObjectivity ( talk • contribs) 01:01, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Regarding these edits diff, diff:
I suspect that the multitude of notices at the head of this article are better placed at the subsections. I believe some people here want to perpetually keep this entire article under the cloud of being biased or poorly written, when only a small part is in dispute. I have tried removing those notices, only to have them reverted. EgraS ( talk) 05:22, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Everyone knows that. And I mean EVERYONE who isn't 5 or mentally challenged, such a statement (Hispanic is not a RACE) is already proven not only by sheer reality but by the hundreds of other wikipedia articles on White Hispanics and Black Hispanics and so on. So Stop. Stop deleting the improvements from anyone who mentions such a unbelievably humongous flaw in the so-called *RACIAL* studies on Intelligence.
That's grown up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.123.253.130 ( talk) 22:24, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I notice that the "very long" notice for this article suggests that it be split into multiple sub-articles. Has anyone considered this? It seems like it might be a good idea, for several reasons.
Captain Occam ( talk) 19:10, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
You have not adequately responded to my proposal. Your comment about Rushton is irrelevnt, his theories are fringe. look, he is a psychologist, with no training in genetics. His theories about psychology might not be fringe, but his theories about genetics certainly are. A creationit's views of creation may not be fringe theories mong theologicans, but they certainly are among evolutionary biologists. As you say this has been thoroughly discussed and there is no evidence at all that experts in human races and human genetics and human evolution view Rushton as anything but fringe. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:16, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
No, I am saying psychologists have no professional standing to make biologial claims about race. They are free to do it just as I can write an essay on psychology but just because I have a degree in another field doen't make my writings mainstram psychology. That is what Rushton is doing. He is a psychologist when he writes about the research psychologists specialize in. When he write about human evolution and polulation genetics and biology, he is just an amateur. Slrubenstein | Talk 02:27, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
I find the following unsourced statement very questionable: "Current scientific consensus is that IQ scores in developing countries are depressed to some extent by environmental conditions, such as macronutrient and micronutrient deficiencies."
Reason being that in poor and malnourished countries like North Korea and Mongolia, the IQs are still highest among the world.
A source should be provided for this questionable statement or it should be removed since it doesn't make sense.
An anonymous IP has again introduced the National IQ map in the article. This is inappropriate for at least two major reasons:
I would also like to invite said IP to review WP:VANDAL to learn what is vandalism and what isn't.-- Ramdrake ( talk) 19:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
United States is over 73% White, Canada is 74% White, and Brazil is mixed but still almost 50% white. Most readers are smart enough to have a rough idea of that.
Can someone please link the image in question? It's a handy resource, and keeps getting taken down. I came here specifically for it and was dissapointed to find it had been taken down again. It's a shame that people trying to be politically correct perpetuate the opression and lack of special needs assistance for others because they want to hold everyone up to standards of equality. It's quite clear certain regions have underlying issues and need help more than others and the longer we pretend that's not the case, the longer people have to suffer in this world. 122.107.31.132 ( talk) 20:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
In terms of per capita income and education blacks strongly outdo latinos. Why then do latinos have higer iq scores? Isn't the average latino score 86 now and the average black score 88? YVNP ( talk) 09:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
What is the source data for this image? Are the whole graphs actual values or was it made from just the means and standard deviations? If the later, then it is misleading. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 22:28, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Approximate cumulative IQ distributions in the U.S. based on Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale IQs for Whites (mean = 101.4, SD = 14.7) and Blacks (mean = 86.9, SD = 13.0) from (Reynolds, Chastain, Kaufman, & McLean, 1987, p. 330); distributions for Hispanics (mean = 91) and Asians (mean = 106) are less precise.
where in the world hispanic is a race? Hispanic is classification economic-social and NOT of race.
An editor has just placed the {{ refimprove}} tag on the article. Seeing as there are already over 150 references supporting the article, it would be appreciated if the editor could specify in which way exactly the article's references could be improved. Otherwise, the tag might be removed as the reasons for its addition seem nebulous.-- Ramdrake ( talk) 23:39, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I put it, not because there are too few references, but because they are hard to navigate. What is up with the scrollable mini-boxes? I have never seen those on other articles. Also, is it possible to have the refs under Notes link to the relevant one under References? I don't know of any way but it would be very useful here. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 23:57, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Scrolling lists and boxes that toggle text display between hide and show are acceptable in infoboxes and navigation boxes, but should never be used in the article prose or references, because of issues with readability, accessibility, and printing
I looked on Richard Lynn's website and found this article. Basically he estimated the overwhelming majority of the iq scores based on either neighboring countries or ethnic groups in faraway nations. Since his research is almost the back bone of race and intelligence research don't we have an obligation to mention it? http://www.rlynn.co.uk/pages/articles.asp YVNP ( talk) 09:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Lynn has connections with white nationalists in the US and elsewhere. How can people like this be taken seriously in these issues. It is as if Hitler would be considered a reliable source regarding these debates. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.8.187.137 ( talk) 20:19, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
This should be non-controversial. It is true that they are notable - Arnold Schwartzeneger and Madonna are notable too - but they are notable in specific fields (astronomy and molecular chemistry) and neither have conducted any research on the relationship between race and intelligence. There remarks were not published in notable sources which is part of our NPOV threshold for inclusion (they were quoted in newspapers and did not publish in peer-reviewed journals for example). Their support of a particular view in this context is no more meaningful than Madonna's or mine or yours - it is just their personal opinion. This is relevant perhaps to the articles on them but not to an article about a topic that is the object of scientific study. Science is vast and highly specialized. An expert on one field generally is no better than a layman on another field. Ther are scientists who are creationists but we do not mention them in the article on evolution because their field of research is not evolutionary science. I just want to adopt the same principle here as it makes sense. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Since when exactly Ashkenazi Jews fall into the race category? I certainly wouldn't mind that an article is dedicated to this, but it has nothing to do with the article, unless we rename it into "ìntelligence and heredity". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.238.33 ( talk) 21:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Paulsheer (
talk •
contribs) 18:42, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
This article fails to make the connection between scientific racism and "race and intelligence" research-- it is ahistorical and sanitized. We need an honest accounting of this topic. scientific racism isn't even mentioned in the history section. 71.190.92.19 ( talk) 15:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)\
I'm an industrial psychologist with 10 year's experience in the field, and my speciality is psychometric tests, such as I.Q. tests.
This issue is a contentious one, but the answer is actually very simple.
Firstly, a basic primer on how a psychometric test is constructed. Researchers develop a construct and give it a name. In this discussion the construct is intelligence quotient (I.Q.). Remember that this is just a label, and as with all labels the contents may not necessarily match the label. The traditional I.Q. test measures only certain types of intelligence, which is why in the last decade we've seen a whole lot of new intelligence tests, like emotional intelligence (E.Q.), etc. Just because the can says, "beef", you can't assume it contains beef, or just beef, you need to read the label describing the ingredients very carefully. In psychometric tests how the construct is defined is normally described very carefully in the test manual, so until you read the test manual it really is a case of "buyer beware", which is why these tests should not be interpreted by anyone other than a trained professional, simply because of the grossly incorrect assumptions that people leap to.
After the researchers have labeled the construct they take all the existing research in relation to the items they want to incorporate into that construct, and identify the key variables. If, for example, you're trying to develop a test that predicts aptitude for science then the research would indicate that high scores in mathematics tend to predict success in this field, so that would be a key variable.
Next the researchers come up with a range of tests related to these key variables. These might be questions (either asked verbally or in writing), physical tests (playing a video game, solving a physical puzzle, walking a line), and so on.
What happens next is where all the fun starts. The researchers get volunteers to do the test, containing all the test items. Normally the minimum number considered for these tests is 100 000. These tests are normally longitudinal, which means that the people do the test several times, normally a 3 to 5 years apart. The researchers also get data on salary level, academic achievement, field of employment, and any other variables associate with what they're trying to study. The researchers then correlate the results to the test as a whole, individual test items, combinations of test items, etc. In short the test is put through the statistical wringer, trying to determine which items show a strong correlation to the aspect being studied. Normally the minimum requirement is that the test correctly predicts the performance of 95% of the individuals tested. To take a simple example, if 98% of the individuals who answered Yes to item 10 also showed a high level of success in the field of science then it is reasonable to assume that item 10 is related to the prediction of success in the field of science; although not necessarily an absolute truth, this response could the the RESULT of success in the field of science, which is why these studies are longitudinal, so that the researchers can determine if this result is the consequence or genesis of the variable being examined.
After this the test is trimmed down to those questions that showed, on statistical analysis, an apparent predictive validity. The test is re-administered to a new group, normally again longitudinally, and the overall predictive value of the test is re-validated. If the test doesn't meet the minimum 95% predictive value then it must be re-engineered and re-tested. If it does then it can be held to predict the attribute being examined.
This is an extremely long and drawn-out process, and a properly developed psychometric instrument takes about 20 years to develop, an immense investment in time, money and man-hours. This wasn't true of most of the early psychometric tests, neither is it true of many of the tests currently on the market, and almost all of the tests available on the internet. Furthermore, psychometric tests are extremely sensitive, and even seemingly inconsequential variables, such as an overly warm test room, noise, a hostile tester, etc, have been shown to have a significant effect on test scores, which is why it is critical that the tester is properly qualified, and by this I do not mean a 2 day course in how to use the test, I mean a fully qualified and registered psychologist.
As you can see, the development of a psychometric test is as much psychological phenomenon as it is a statistical phenomenon, and relies heavily on the science of statistics.
I'm sure that most of you are familiar with the concept of 'normal distribution', so I'm not going to go into a full explanation here. Look it up. In very basic terms any properly sampled population, when graphed, will produce a curve that looks like a bell, with the apex of the bell on the average. When analysing a psychometric test this is one of the statistical tests it is subjected to. The African-American population's test-scores do not form a bell-curve then something is clearly wrong with the test. It is possible for a group to have a 'competitive advantage', having a slightly higher or lower average score, but if the groups have been sampled correctly then each group should show a bell-like curve around the average. If it doesn't then the discriminatory test questions need to be identified and removed. This clearly wasn't done in some of the earlier tests.
You might be jumping up and down and shouting at this point, but there are very good reasons for this. Population groups, whether distinguished by the shade of their skin, gender, language, or whatever criterion people choose to use, tend to share more than just the surface difference being used to discriminate between groups. For example, such groups often live in the same area, share a common language, attend the same type of schools, etc. As I mentioned above, psychometric tests are very sensitive, and can be influenced by these factors. Let's take a very simple example. In America the term "black" has negative connotations, whereas in South Africa it is used far more neutrally, and can even assume positive connotations in certain areas, such as employment equity. If I imported a test from South Africa that used the word "black" extensively it would create a negative impression in the mind of African-American (and possibly other) test-takers, resulting in lower scores.
For this reason a test must be validated for each country and population group, and subjected to the 'normal distribution' test. If it fails this test then it is not the population group that is at fault, but rather the psychometric test.
I hope this answers everyone's questions regarding Intelligence and Race. Simply put what you're seeing is a statistical error, nothing more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.213.160.228 ( talk) 03:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Titanium i dont believe you understood the point that he was trying to make the IQ tests as we know it test merely your Potential to make it in western academic institutions or in general: in the western society those tests come up with questions that predict how likely you will be a scientist for example but becoming a scientist doesnt nedessarily take intelligence scientific work for ecample takes many virtues: discipline, teamskills, hard work and others so if the question in the IQ test gives higher points only to people who later become doctors and lawyers that doesnt mean necessarily that it tested intelligence it might have tested a wild mixture of propertys but still its the only validation asd the psychologist above stated and this has nothing to do with racism it has more to do which skills WE as westerners need to survive and strive in this western civilization other peoples might need other skills in their societys so its a wild speculation that these tests are aplyable to compare others than westerners with each others also if u cant even really answer what Intelligence actually is, that what are you actually testing? also these test have nothing to do with racism but are more of a shortcircuit tests made by people of our culture to test people of our culture so basically these iq tests mostlikely imply, trhat a certain amount of knowledge about the western world are necessary, what i basically whant to say is if these tests are constructed in such a way that they test our abilitys to make it in this society as a academic or anything else, then isnt it only logic that people who are part of a different upbringing and surrounbdings will have lower results? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.176.34.219 ( talk) 23:55, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Genome projects and other biological studies have found no genetic differences which cause differences in intelligence capacity or differences in neural wiring between humans based on race. [3]
while i think above is true, it definitely needs a better reliable source, and am therefore temporarily removing the reference. 79.101.242.230 ( talk) 22:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
The purpose of investigating a genetic cause of the disparity in socio-economic-status (SES), performance, and intelligence is to determine if it is fair to discriminate against a good performer on the bases of ethnicity or race, which discrimination is currently plentiful. Morally and legally, governments should always provide greater support to ethnic groups that are in greater need - that is without question. However to prejudice a group because it performs well, or try to sabotage the performance of a group, is unfair if the reasons for that group's good performance are genetic, as apposed to, say, because of historical bullying of the under-performing group. If it can be conclusively shown that intelligence is 75% genetic (as some studies purport to do) then it is clear that no amount of environmental bias will ever completely remove the disparity in SES; and it would give governments better predictive power as to the outcome of targeted spending, education programs, and affirmative action. A conclusive result would ultimately be beneficial for every ethnic group. A falsified result would be worse for every ethnic group. It is important to see this in the context of other countries besides the USA that have greater racial asymmetries in SES.
It is absurd to say that such research only exists to bolster racial hatred amongst white supremacists, because the very same research consistently shows Japanese, Koreans, Chinese and Ashkenazi Jews to perform far better than they.
I therefore suggest the article should be extended to discuss the importance of intelligence research in the context of "reverse-racism" happening around the world as well as in the USA. Otherwise the article is indeed no more than a festering pool for a specific brand of Aryan/Anglo-Saxon racial hatred and should be removed from Wikipedia altogether.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulsheer ( talk • contribs) 16:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
what is the difference between the two? 79.101.242.230 ( talk) 22:20, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
According to Lynn's 2004 review of Ashkenazi Jews IQ, the estimate of half a standard deviation is for verbal IQ or gC and not for IQ, which comprise gF and gC, or verbal IQ and performance IQ. Therefore, I suggest we remove the claim of an IQ of 110-115 among Ashkenazi Jews according to three old researches. It is simply biased and in Lynn's own terms "unrepresentative".
http://www.apfn.net/Messageboard/02-14-04/discussion.cgi.24.html
Removing this message is unwarranted by Wikipedia policies, Captain Occam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aerain ( talk • contribs) 15:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
For a summary of Backman's (1972) work please see "The Jewish Mind":
You'll find raw data summaries and discussion in the google books preview (pages 294-296) Aprock ( talk) 21:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
"This high IQ and corresponding high academic ability have been long known. In 1900 in London Jews took a disproportionate number of academic prizes and scholarships in spite of their poverty (Russell and Lewis, 1900). In the 1920s a survey of IQ scores in three London schools (Hughes, 1928) with mixed Jewish and non-Jewish student bodies showed that Jewish students had higher IQs than their schoolmates in each of three school, one prosperous, one poor, and one very poor. The differences between Jews and non-Jews were all slightly less than one standard deviation. The students at the poorest Jewish school in London had IQ scores equal to the overall city mean of non-Jewish children. The Hughes study is important because it contradicts a widely cited misrepresentation by Kamin (Kamin, 1974) of a paper by Henry Goddard (Goddard, 1917). Goddard gave IQ tests to people suspected of being retarded, and he found that the tests identified retarded Jews as well as retarded people of other groups. Kamin reported, instead, that Jews had low IQs, and this erroneous report was picked up by many authors including Stephen Jay Gould, who used it as evidence of the unreliability of the tests (Seligman, 1992)." http://homepage.mac.com/harpend/.Public/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Khurshid85 ( talk • contribs) 01:37, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I’ve removed a few irrelevant and/or unsourced statements from this article (such as the bit about eugenics), and added some relevant and notable information which it didn’t previously include, and which is properly cited. I’m hoping no one will disagree with these edits, but if anyone does, I’d appreciate them discussing it here rather than simply reverting them. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 16:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
There is a part of the "Flynn's effect" section that doesn't make any sense, although I'm not suggesting it to be erased or edited, because it does cite references. The part is the following one:
"Other recent studies have found that g has improved substantially.[118][119] Cranial vault size has increased and the shape changed during the last 150 years in the US; these changes must occur by early childhood because of the early development of the vault.[120] It also estimated that the average white IQ in past decades was lower than current average black IQs, a fact which shows the change of IQ over time. [121] But while black Americans in the early 21st century may score higher than white Americans in the early 19th century, the fact remains that the roughly 1 standard deviation IQ gap between black and white Americans living at the same time has held constant since the earliest days of intelligence testing, convincing some observers like Richard Lynn that the black-white gap in the U.S. is not only genetic, but 100% genetic. Indeed Arthur Jensen is struck by how consistent the gap has been, despite the enormous rise in the scores of both races".
What on Earth would explain that IQ may change over time, being, therefore, not immutable, while racial gap would hold constant over time? This is equivalent to say that, despite IQ being innate, it may vary over time due to unknow circumstances, but racial gap may not. Racial gap would not only be innate, but immutable!
It seems that every time one points out the fallacy of the genetic hypothesis, racist academics manage to bring up some "evidence" to support it.
Please, notice that I'm not only making a moral judgement of the above-cited paragraph, but also pointing out what seems to be an unfundamented claim: if IQ may vary over time within the same race, why couldn't IQ racial gap vary, too?
The only thing that persisted over time practically unmodified was racism and its harmful effects. I'm not forgetting about all the changes occurred since the civil rights movement began in the mid-20th century, including Obama's victory. But I imagine no one can deny that racism still persists and racist structural effects are still damaging people's lives. The more I read, more I get convinced that the IQ gap is, if not entirely, at least mostly impacted by environmental factors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.198.217.194 ( talk) 19:42, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
This article is unbalanced in that there are 40 references to Rushton, which is excessive, unless Wikipedia wants to be construed as a public relations machine to sell Rushton's books. Skywriter ( talk) 19:48, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Rushton happens to be a psychologist and expert on the field. And the vast majority of references you are talking about are mere name-mentioning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Niño-wr ( talk • contribs) 21:02, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
The archives of this article will demonstrate that there was discussion that http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/apa_01.html Stalking the Wild Taboo - APA Statement on The Bell Curve- Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns egregiously distorts the study by the American Psychological Association and should not be used. At the time, I provided direct references to the APA document on the APA site. Unless those links can be resurrected, no cite is better than using this intellectually dishonest and unreliable source. wp:rs Skywriter ( talk) 20:52, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
New user has three times added unrelated material from book by Michael Levin on topic of slave reparations. I've tried to gently persuade this user that this is irrelevant to this article. Skywriter ( talk) 08:29, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
The added material is related to the article in that it is about refutation of the slavery argument which is discussed in the same section the material was added in. And actually the topic of that book is race and intelligence, not slave reparations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Niño-wr ( talk • contribs) 08:43, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
I reverted two undiscussed deletions: one based on the claim that McPherson was fringe (where is the evidence to support it?) and one in the history section based on the claim that the book it came from didn't discuss race and intelligence(when the section is about racism and its history - and so is the source of the ref). I'd like to invite further discussion of this, as both deletions seem dubious to me.-- Ramdrake ( talk) 21:39, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
The History section of the article may not currently be in compliance with the following Wikipedia policies:
The examples and perspective in this article may not represent a
worldwide view of the subject. (December 2010) |
This article starts out with a statement that race and intelligence are two human characteristics and throughout the article the word race is used without providing a definition. What is meant by race? In what way is it a human characteristic? This article is written in a way that presupposes that race refers to something reflected in the genetic makeup of individual racial groups - so that if there is a difference in intelligence in a racial group it might be explained by their unique genetic composition. Is there any actual scientific basis for this assumption? That is, certain phenotypes that are markers of racial difference can be assumed to have a genetic basis. That does not, however, mean that the categorization based on those phenotypes reflect an underlying biological category. The biological reality of racial categories is something that needs to be proven, and cannot simply be presupposed as a starting point for a discussion about race.
As an anthropologist I don't think that race refers to an biological reality, but rather to arbitrary cultural distinctions. If there is an actual biological basis for racial categorizations I'd be interested in seeing what it is. If not, this article needs to be edited to reflect that race is not a scientific concept. -- Alabasterj ( talk) 01:56, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
"As an anthropologist I don't think that race refers to an biological reality, but rather to arbitrary cultural distinctions. If there is an actual biological basis for racial categorizations I'd be interested in seeing what it is. If not, this article needs to be edited to reflect that race is not a scientific concept." As an anthropologist how can you not believe in race? Bone structure alone is enough to determine race. When anthropologists look at human skulls they can easily tell the region of the globe that the person the skull belonged to originated. Asians tend to have thicker foreheads than people from other parts of the globe. Just by eying people on the street it as easy to estimate their genetic region of origin as it is to visually differentiate breeds of dogs. Race is a genetic fact, unarguably, and any good anthropologist will tell you that. Now if race has any real effects on intelligence is more than open to debate and you can be as politically correct on that as you want to be. I'll support you in it. But please don't be the fool that claims that race is not a biological reality, it's a political claim, not a scientific one.
I inserted a see also section with the following links:
but was denied due to WP:UNDUE... any explanation how WP:UNDUE is a concern? 204.124.182.189 ( talk) 14:13, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I have re-inserted the section. 204.124.182.189 ( talk) 15:41, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
"This paper provides new data on the theory that Jews have a higher average level of verbal intelligence than non-Jewish whites. The theory is considered by examining the vocabulary scores of Jews, non-Jewish whites, blacks and others obtained in the American General Social Surveys carried out by the National Opinion Research Centre in the years 1990–1996. Vocabulary size is a good measure of verbal intelligence. Jews obtained a significantly higher mean vocabulary score than non-Jewish whites, equivalent to an IQ advantage of 7.5 IQ points. The results confirm previous reports that the verbal IQ of American Jews is higher than that of non-Jewish whites."
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V9F-48761M2-B&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1009383794&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=20d4adee70c91c748c631ffbe955a902 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aerain ( talk • contribs) 18:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
The tags at the top of the article seem to be spurious, or have been ignored for a long time. They seem to be inserted into the article merely to detract from the topic. They should be removed (other than the one suggesting input from an expert on the topic). As I see there is no active discussion on the tags, I am going to go ahead and remove them (again). At least one of them is a year and a half old. Fixentries ( talk) 11:15, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Well what do you want to do with the article. The tags are pretty much just vandalism if there is no intent to fix the problems. Ramdrake has indicated they have been there for years, and that he and others have given up on changing the article. They also indicate that the article is unacceptable because it gives equal time to both sides of the issue. I'm not sure I see a solution but I'm open to anything constructive we can do to word the article fairly (and the problem seems to be that it's already worded fairly). Fixentries ( talk) 22:17, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
In science no evidence is incontrovertible. Fixentry, you seem to have a highly distorted view of science - you think it is either the truth, or speculation. I am afraid you are sounding more like a theologican than a scientist. For scientists, nothing is incontroverable, but that does NOT make things equally speculative. Scientists make arguments, supported by evidence. Which scientists has the most evidence, analyzed appropriately, determines who, at any given time, is winning a debate. Of course the winner can always change - if someone marshalls more evidence analyzed more appropriately, but this does not mean that what came before was just speculation!
Fixentry makes another profound mistake - she seems to think that the methods of one science should be applied by other sciences. Wow! imagine if biologists relied on the methods of geologists! This is just bizarre! Appropriate methods depend on the object of study. The kinds of problems sociologists investigate should not be studied through controlled experiments. But sociologists collect vast amounts of data, and have rigorous statistical means for determining sufficient sample size, the reliability of the means for collecting data (e.g. a questionnaire) and the significance of the resulte. These matters - sample size, validity and reliability, and significance, are neither arbitrary nor subjective, they are based on the fundamentals of statistics, which is the basis for all modern science. ad sociology is as possible as bad chemistry. It will just be bad for different reasons. With chemistry, the lab equipment may be broken, or the devices for measurement may be poorly calibrated. In sociology one may have an inadequate sample size, an unreliable instrument, or insignificant results. But precisely because bad sociology is possible, good sociology is possible too. Now, again, please tell me which of the studies in this volume do you consider bad sociology, and why? Slrubenstein | Talk 01:17, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I’ve been following this discussion on and off since 2007, I have a fairly good understanding of the issues involved in it. The main issue here is that the proportions of views on this topic as explained/expressed in popular sources (such as newspapers and magazines) is not the same as the proportion represented in professional literature. Since I read both, I’m able to compare them.
In popular literature, this is regarded as a fringe theory, so some editors seem to want to base this theory’s coverage on that. But if you look at the professional literature, you’ll see something quite different. As an example, the June 2005 issue of the peer-reviewed journal Psychology, Public Policy and Law is devoted to this debate. And they regard it as a real scientific debate, not like the “controversy” over creationism vs. evolution. The six papers in this issue of the journal are available here. While not all of them agree with the hereditarian hypothesis, all of them take it seriously as a scientific theory, and the issue’s features article (Thirty years of research on race differences in cognitive ability by Jensen and Rushton) views this theory favorably.
Comparing this to a true fringe theory such as creationism, we can see what the difference is. One would never see an issue of a biology journal devoted to the creation/evolution controversy containing papers arguing both sides, and with their feature article written by a creationist in defense of the creationist viewpoint.
NPOV#Undue_weight explains the difference between a fringe view and a significant-minority view. Quoting that page: “If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents”. Arthur Jensen, E. O. Wilson, Linda Gottfredson, James Watson, and Hans Eysenck are all examples of that in this case. As a result, the hereditarian hypothesis about race and intelligence does not meet Wikipedia’s criteria for a fringe theory. That doesn’t mean the article can’t be improved—if Rushton specifically is being given too much coverage, then more of the information about the herediterian hypothesis ought to be cited to other more prominent scientists who support it. But the actual scope of the article's coverage of this theory was established by consensus quite some time ago, while considering points such as the ones I made above. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 00:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Captain Occam, I agree that psychologists are experts in intelligence testing. Do you agree with me that geneticists are experts in heredity? If so can you tell me how many geneticists (Phd.s and active research in genetics) would agree that the main or principle explanation for differences in IQ scores between diferent races is inheritance, i.e. some genetic factor? Slrubenstein | Talk 01:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Watson actually did research on the genetics of intelligence? That is news to me! You seem to be misunderstandin me. When I ask what geneticists have to say, I mean of course geneticists specifically researching differences in IQ. To take my point any other way seems to lead to arguing from authority, which we should avoid at Wikipedia. I do not care whether someone got the nobel prize - if they have not conducted actual research on the inheritance of IQ, their opinions do not matter. You wonder what my point is, and this is it: when we want to know what mainstream science is, we look at what is mainstream among active researchers and expertes in the field. The article on Evolution does not consider the views of astronomers, even astronomers or astrophysicists who may have wom the nobel prize. It considers the views of evolutionary biologists, i.e. the real experts on the topic. If we want to know what is the mainstream science on the genetic basis for intelligence, we should look at geneticists who are actively researching genetics and intelligence. So I ask again, how many of these people believe that genetics is a major component of the reason for between-group differences in IQ? Slrubenstein | Talk 01:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Again, Fixentries seems not to understand the science. No scholar - whether in social science or life science - will deny that inheritance has a great deal to do with human intelligence. The structure of the human brain and its functioning are the results of over two million years of evolution. Human intelligence is different from Chimpanzee or Gorilla (our nearest relatives) intelligence - in degree or kind, depending on your view of evolutionary theory - precisely because of human evolution, which involves a complex interplay of physical environment, social environment, and genetics, and everyone who believes in the theory of speciation through natural selection understands that environment (which selects) and genes (which generate variation) play a roughly equal role. Certainly genetics has a great deal to do with human intelligence.
The question is what role genetics plays in explaining variation in intelligence between groups of humans. This is a different and very specific question and the mainstream answer is, not much.
Captain Occam, I think it is entirely reasonable to expect people with PhDs in evolutionary biology or genetics to understand genetics much better than people not trained in evolutionary biology and genetics. I have some training in genetics, enough to know that most psychologists who use the term "heritability" misuse it. I prefer to think it is because they misunderstand it, and are not willfully trying to distort science. And I think it is reasonable to say that they might misunderstand it because they were not trained in genetics. Surely there are things pyschologists are trained in, and spend their lives researching, that they therefore have expertise in. When I learn of a psychologist who claims to be researching genetics and intelligence, I usually learn that while they may have a great deal of training in intelligence, they actualy have little or no training in genetics. I am skeptical of their claims about genetics precisely for the same reasons I respect their claims about intelligence. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Occam, sorry about the outdenting thing - there are different conventions at WP but, if people keep indenting, things end up being harder to read. I agree with most of what you say. I resist talking about the hereditarian hypothesis in the abstract. There is a fair amount of evidence that Rushton's arguments are considered by many researchers to be fringe. I am not sure I would make the same claim about Jensen although the two are often lumped together. And please note, I am not saying that a psychologist cannot make authoritative claims about genetics, only that they would be authoritative only if the psychologist has training in genetics. This is certainly possible through post-docs, it is not uncommon for a scholar who received PhD training in one field to receive supplemental training in another. Please do not interpret what I wrote as a categorical ban on psychologists speaking with authority on this matter. All I am saying is they need to have some training, or something that gives them credentials of some sort, in genetics. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:43, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
- If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
- If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
- If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article.
- Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors.
I'm a little confused by this statement by Captain Occam
Occam seems to be arguing here that heritability is a measure of genetic contribution to phenotype. The argument that "some of the variation in the IQ of a group is caused by genes" is not the opposite of the argument "there is no genetic causation to the IQ differences between the groups". But of course it's not. Heritability is an estimate of genetic contribution to variance within a group. In fact something can be 100% heritable and have no genetic causation whatsoever. See Ned Block's essay here. In fact if we want to state the two points of view, they are more like: "there is no sound evidence that genetics causes the observed difference in IQ between different populations" and "because we can estimate that some of the variation in IQ within groups has some genetic causation, then we can assume that between group differences in IQ have some genetic causation". Neither of these positions are easy to understand or explain, but many reputable geneticists and statisticians (in the end this is about statistics) have written about the fallacy of the second proposition. Alun ( talk) 18:26, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
The big problem here is that the major research by geneticists concerning intelligence is not about "race." Genetic arguments about race are virtually always fringe, because they misrepresent actual research by geneticists.
What is at stake here is not which side of an argument on race and IQ any editor falls on. What is at stake is how we wite articles. If we want an article to represent research by geneticists, what we should do is find the major articles first and then report what they say. So far, peope have been looking for those articles specifically on genetics and race. This of course is a circular method - if you start out looking for race and IQ you will of course end up finding race and IQ. But what if we took another method and just started out with, research on intelligence by geneticists. Do they use the concept "race?" Or do they do something else? lt us stat out by being agnostic and just ask: what do geneticists studyingintelligence talk about?
Study on the biology of IQ hinges on twin studies. Here is a fair sample of the major sources. To start us off, I propose we look at these articles:
I repeat, the point is not to cherry-pick quotes that we agree or disagree with. The point is to examine reliable sources to find out - yes, find out, as if e may actually learn something new - what the notable views are. I just looked for the major research by geneticists on intelligence, that is all. So, are they arguing about race? Or something else?
It turns out, the answer is "something else." I swear, I did not start out looking for this "something else." I just started out looking for top articles on intelligence and genetics. From what I gather from this literature, most of the current scholarship - mainstream scholarship - on IQ scores is not even concerned with the debate "is it environmental or is it genetic."
Virtually all scientific research on the genetic determinants of variation in IQ scores is based on twin studies and above (perhaps now in archived talk) I provided a bibliography of major (i.e. from major peer-reviewed journal journals, and which are frequently cited) articles. These studies indicate an ongoing debate between scientists who measure the heritability of intelligence at .40, and others who measure it at between .60 and .70.
In addition to these contrasting calculations, there is a debate over the effects of of the shared prenatal environment - some argue that identical blood supply should lead to greater similarities between monochoriatic twins than dichorionic twins; others argue that competition for blood supply should lead to greater differences between monochorionic twins than dichorionic twins. This, it turns out, is the big debate among geneticists studying intelligence. What is important, in explaining variance within a population (genetically related people) is the prenatal environment. These geneticists are not looking at genetic explanations for differences in IQ between diferent groups because of the principle of heritability (you cannot compare variance in intelligence between groups, only within groups.
There is, it turns out, a body of literature on genetics and IQ, and I provided many citations above, and obviously an article on this research must be organized around the most notable and mainstream views on the matter - it should include all notable views ... but I think that the major notable views should be the principle factor in the organization and presentation of the article. I think we need to have a good article that provides a clear account of this research and these controversies. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Okay, if you want to distinguish between heritability of IQ and race and IQ, I'd say: heritability of IQ is what is studied by geneticists, race and IQ is what it studied by sociologists, as "race" in this context is a social rather than genetic category. But my point was more about the method for researching an article: if you want to know what geneticists think, start by looking for the main research by geneticists, and then see what they are debating, what their questions and conclusions are ... people working on this article seem to be going the opposite way around, starting with the answers they like and just looking for sources. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:35, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Slrubenstein: You have not provided citations for all your claims about genetics. You offered some thoroughly tangential citations from twin's studies. Do you have any citations to support your claims about population genetics? Specifically your claim that, if I may try to paraphrase, a trait being heritable in individuals has no possible bearing on population genetics? Fixentries ( talk) 10:52, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I see Fixentries has trolled before:
I suggest not responding to this user until they become productive on this talk page. T34CH ( talk) 20:00, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
- If your viewpoint is held by a significant scientific minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents, and the article should certainly address the controversy without taking sides.
(outdent)Captian Occam, I believe you've misquoted WP:UNDUE.
If your viewpoint is held by a significant scientific minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents, and the article should certainly address the controversy without taking sides.
The italicized portion is an addition not in the actual policy. It's part of a comment Jimbo made in 2003, the base of which the policy was written upon, but not policy itself. The Undue Weight clause, which is policy, has evolved over time and taken on more definition and clarity beyond what Jimbo started with as principle. For example, it has been expanded to instruct editors to clearly describe minority viewpoints as minority, and majority as majority, and to not mislead readers as to the shape of the dispute by giving minority views greater weight or proportion than they've earned. Although the spirit was there, none of that was in Jimbo's earlier statement from 2003. -- Nealparr ( talk to me) 22:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Well let's look at a list of how many psychologists explicitly support the heredity position and how many explicitly oppose it. Fixentries ( talk) 01:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Captain Occam, while I don't want to speak for Ramdrake, I do not think you are doing justice to his general point. I emphasize the "general" because i know you know what my position is and I am not trying to continue an argument where we may just disagree. But there is an important point that we need to be clear about. NPOV is all about views, not viewers. The issue is whether a particular view is mainstream, majority, minority, or fringe. An individual may be world-famous yet hold fringe views. A perrson may hold a view about one thing that is mainstream, and a view about another thing that is fringe. One scholar may publish an article that continues to be cited by everyone in her field (or sub-discipline), and may then publish another article that no one cites, or cites only to attack. This is indeed not that rare in academia. We should not be arguing over whether x is or is not a notable person - this only matters when we debate whether Wikipedia ought to have an article on that person, or whether their bio should be deleted. The question here, is, is this particular view mainstream or fringe. What makes it fringe or mainstream is not the credentials or position of the person holding the views. Even a patent clerk is can write an article that becomes mainstream science! Similarly, someone holding a prestigious chair can publish an article espousing a fringe view. What makes it mainstream or fringe is the degree to which it is accepted by other experts in the field. We can argue over this question. But it is the view that we are discussing. We can't have a clear discussion unless we can look at the view apart from the individual expressing the view. The view has to be considered valid or plausible by a significant number of experts in the field to cross the threshold of a minority view, or needs to be accepted by the vast majority of experts in the field to be considered majority or mainstream. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:44, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 65 | ← | Archive 68 | Archive 69 | Archive 70 | Archive 71 | Archive 72 | → | Archive 75 |
People seems to inflate the Ashkenazi Jew IQ, I remember a few years ago, in this very article, it was standing at 115, but did not cite an acceptable source. So I modified the United States section however someone removed my contribution for "no reason": Many old studies such as that of Backman (1972), Levinson (1959) and Romanoff (1976) estimates Ashkenazi Jews to score above 0.75 to 1.0 standard deviations above the general European average in verbal or crystalized IQ, corresponding to an IQ 112-115. A recent review by Lynn (2004) however concludes that the advantage is slightly less, only half a standard deviation. [1] [2]
The earlier version was also by me, however this version is a lot more objective. The most extensive study also came to the same conclusion which is about 107.5 in verbal or crystalized IQ. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TrueObjectivity ( talk • contribs) 01:01, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Regarding these edits diff, diff:
I suspect that the multitude of notices at the head of this article are better placed at the subsections. I believe some people here want to perpetually keep this entire article under the cloud of being biased or poorly written, when only a small part is in dispute. I have tried removing those notices, only to have them reverted. EgraS ( talk) 05:22, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Everyone knows that. And I mean EVERYONE who isn't 5 or mentally challenged, such a statement (Hispanic is not a RACE) is already proven not only by sheer reality but by the hundreds of other wikipedia articles on White Hispanics and Black Hispanics and so on. So Stop. Stop deleting the improvements from anyone who mentions such a unbelievably humongous flaw in the so-called *RACIAL* studies on Intelligence.
That's grown up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.123.253.130 ( talk) 22:24, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
I notice that the "very long" notice for this article suggests that it be split into multiple sub-articles. Has anyone considered this? It seems like it might be a good idea, for several reasons.
Captain Occam ( talk) 19:10, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
You have not adequately responded to my proposal. Your comment about Rushton is irrelevnt, his theories are fringe. look, he is a psychologist, with no training in genetics. His theories about psychology might not be fringe, but his theories about genetics certainly are. A creationit's views of creation may not be fringe theories mong theologicans, but they certainly are among evolutionary biologists. As you say this has been thoroughly discussed and there is no evidence at all that experts in human races and human genetics and human evolution view Rushton as anything but fringe. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:16, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
No, I am saying psychologists have no professional standing to make biologial claims about race. They are free to do it just as I can write an essay on psychology but just because I have a degree in another field doen't make my writings mainstram psychology. That is what Rushton is doing. He is a psychologist when he writes about the research psychologists specialize in. When he write about human evolution and polulation genetics and biology, he is just an amateur. Slrubenstein | Talk 02:27, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
I find the following unsourced statement very questionable: "Current scientific consensus is that IQ scores in developing countries are depressed to some extent by environmental conditions, such as macronutrient and micronutrient deficiencies."
Reason being that in poor and malnourished countries like North Korea and Mongolia, the IQs are still highest among the world.
A source should be provided for this questionable statement or it should be removed since it doesn't make sense.
An anonymous IP has again introduced the National IQ map in the article. This is inappropriate for at least two major reasons:
I would also like to invite said IP to review WP:VANDAL to learn what is vandalism and what isn't.-- Ramdrake ( talk) 19:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
United States is over 73% White, Canada is 74% White, and Brazil is mixed but still almost 50% white. Most readers are smart enough to have a rough idea of that.
Can someone please link the image in question? It's a handy resource, and keeps getting taken down. I came here specifically for it and was dissapointed to find it had been taken down again. It's a shame that people trying to be politically correct perpetuate the opression and lack of special needs assistance for others because they want to hold everyone up to standards of equality. It's quite clear certain regions have underlying issues and need help more than others and the longer we pretend that's not the case, the longer people have to suffer in this world. 122.107.31.132 ( talk) 20:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
In terms of per capita income and education blacks strongly outdo latinos. Why then do latinos have higer iq scores? Isn't the average latino score 86 now and the average black score 88? YVNP ( talk) 09:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
What is the source data for this image? Are the whole graphs actual values or was it made from just the means and standard deviations? If the later, then it is misleading. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 22:28, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Approximate cumulative IQ distributions in the U.S. based on Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale IQs for Whites (mean = 101.4, SD = 14.7) and Blacks (mean = 86.9, SD = 13.0) from (Reynolds, Chastain, Kaufman, & McLean, 1987, p. 330); distributions for Hispanics (mean = 91) and Asians (mean = 106) are less precise.
where in the world hispanic is a race? Hispanic is classification economic-social and NOT of race.
An editor has just placed the {{ refimprove}} tag on the article. Seeing as there are already over 150 references supporting the article, it would be appreciated if the editor could specify in which way exactly the article's references could be improved. Otherwise, the tag might be removed as the reasons for its addition seem nebulous.-- Ramdrake ( talk) 23:39, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I put it, not because there are too few references, but because they are hard to navigate. What is up with the scrollable mini-boxes? I have never seen those on other articles. Also, is it possible to have the refs under Notes link to the relevant one under References? I don't know of any way but it would be very useful here. -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 23:57, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Scrolling lists and boxes that toggle text display between hide and show are acceptable in infoboxes and navigation boxes, but should never be used in the article prose or references, because of issues with readability, accessibility, and printing
I looked on Richard Lynn's website and found this article. Basically he estimated the overwhelming majority of the iq scores based on either neighboring countries or ethnic groups in faraway nations. Since his research is almost the back bone of race and intelligence research don't we have an obligation to mention it? http://www.rlynn.co.uk/pages/articles.asp YVNP ( talk) 09:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Lynn has connections with white nationalists in the US and elsewhere. How can people like this be taken seriously in these issues. It is as if Hitler would be considered a reliable source regarding these debates. Jan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.8.187.137 ( talk) 20:19, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
This should be non-controversial. It is true that they are notable - Arnold Schwartzeneger and Madonna are notable too - but they are notable in specific fields (astronomy and molecular chemistry) and neither have conducted any research on the relationship between race and intelligence. There remarks were not published in notable sources which is part of our NPOV threshold for inclusion (they were quoted in newspapers and did not publish in peer-reviewed journals for example). Their support of a particular view in this context is no more meaningful than Madonna's or mine or yours - it is just their personal opinion. This is relevant perhaps to the articles on them but not to an article about a topic that is the object of scientific study. Science is vast and highly specialized. An expert on one field generally is no better than a layman on another field. Ther are scientists who are creationists but we do not mention them in the article on evolution because their field of research is not evolutionary science. I just want to adopt the same principle here as it makes sense. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
Since when exactly Ashkenazi Jews fall into the race category? I certainly wouldn't mind that an article is dedicated to this, but it has nothing to do with the article, unless we rename it into "ìntelligence and heredity". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.238.33 ( talk) 21:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Paulsheer (
talk •
contribs) 18:42, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
This article fails to make the connection between scientific racism and "race and intelligence" research-- it is ahistorical and sanitized. We need an honest accounting of this topic. scientific racism isn't even mentioned in the history section. 71.190.92.19 ( talk) 15:15, 23 May 2009 (UTC)\
I'm an industrial psychologist with 10 year's experience in the field, and my speciality is psychometric tests, such as I.Q. tests.
This issue is a contentious one, but the answer is actually very simple.
Firstly, a basic primer on how a psychometric test is constructed. Researchers develop a construct and give it a name. In this discussion the construct is intelligence quotient (I.Q.). Remember that this is just a label, and as with all labels the contents may not necessarily match the label. The traditional I.Q. test measures only certain types of intelligence, which is why in the last decade we've seen a whole lot of new intelligence tests, like emotional intelligence (E.Q.), etc. Just because the can says, "beef", you can't assume it contains beef, or just beef, you need to read the label describing the ingredients very carefully. In psychometric tests how the construct is defined is normally described very carefully in the test manual, so until you read the test manual it really is a case of "buyer beware", which is why these tests should not be interpreted by anyone other than a trained professional, simply because of the grossly incorrect assumptions that people leap to.
After the researchers have labeled the construct they take all the existing research in relation to the items they want to incorporate into that construct, and identify the key variables. If, for example, you're trying to develop a test that predicts aptitude for science then the research would indicate that high scores in mathematics tend to predict success in this field, so that would be a key variable.
Next the researchers come up with a range of tests related to these key variables. These might be questions (either asked verbally or in writing), physical tests (playing a video game, solving a physical puzzle, walking a line), and so on.
What happens next is where all the fun starts. The researchers get volunteers to do the test, containing all the test items. Normally the minimum number considered for these tests is 100 000. These tests are normally longitudinal, which means that the people do the test several times, normally a 3 to 5 years apart. The researchers also get data on salary level, academic achievement, field of employment, and any other variables associate with what they're trying to study. The researchers then correlate the results to the test as a whole, individual test items, combinations of test items, etc. In short the test is put through the statistical wringer, trying to determine which items show a strong correlation to the aspect being studied. Normally the minimum requirement is that the test correctly predicts the performance of 95% of the individuals tested. To take a simple example, if 98% of the individuals who answered Yes to item 10 also showed a high level of success in the field of science then it is reasonable to assume that item 10 is related to the prediction of success in the field of science; although not necessarily an absolute truth, this response could the the RESULT of success in the field of science, which is why these studies are longitudinal, so that the researchers can determine if this result is the consequence or genesis of the variable being examined.
After this the test is trimmed down to those questions that showed, on statistical analysis, an apparent predictive validity. The test is re-administered to a new group, normally again longitudinally, and the overall predictive value of the test is re-validated. If the test doesn't meet the minimum 95% predictive value then it must be re-engineered and re-tested. If it does then it can be held to predict the attribute being examined.
This is an extremely long and drawn-out process, and a properly developed psychometric instrument takes about 20 years to develop, an immense investment in time, money and man-hours. This wasn't true of most of the early psychometric tests, neither is it true of many of the tests currently on the market, and almost all of the tests available on the internet. Furthermore, psychometric tests are extremely sensitive, and even seemingly inconsequential variables, such as an overly warm test room, noise, a hostile tester, etc, have been shown to have a significant effect on test scores, which is why it is critical that the tester is properly qualified, and by this I do not mean a 2 day course in how to use the test, I mean a fully qualified and registered psychologist.
As you can see, the development of a psychometric test is as much psychological phenomenon as it is a statistical phenomenon, and relies heavily on the science of statistics.
I'm sure that most of you are familiar with the concept of 'normal distribution', so I'm not going to go into a full explanation here. Look it up. In very basic terms any properly sampled population, when graphed, will produce a curve that looks like a bell, with the apex of the bell on the average. When analysing a psychometric test this is one of the statistical tests it is subjected to. The African-American population's test-scores do not form a bell-curve then something is clearly wrong with the test. It is possible for a group to have a 'competitive advantage', having a slightly higher or lower average score, but if the groups have been sampled correctly then each group should show a bell-like curve around the average. If it doesn't then the discriminatory test questions need to be identified and removed. This clearly wasn't done in some of the earlier tests.
You might be jumping up and down and shouting at this point, but there are very good reasons for this. Population groups, whether distinguished by the shade of their skin, gender, language, or whatever criterion people choose to use, tend to share more than just the surface difference being used to discriminate between groups. For example, such groups often live in the same area, share a common language, attend the same type of schools, etc. As I mentioned above, psychometric tests are very sensitive, and can be influenced by these factors. Let's take a very simple example. In America the term "black" has negative connotations, whereas in South Africa it is used far more neutrally, and can even assume positive connotations in certain areas, such as employment equity. If I imported a test from South Africa that used the word "black" extensively it would create a negative impression in the mind of African-American (and possibly other) test-takers, resulting in lower scores.
For this reason a test must be validated for each country and population group, and subjected to the 'normal distribution' test. If it fails this test then it is not the population group that is at fault, but rather the psychometric test.
I hope this answers everyone's questions regarding Intelligence and Race. Simply put what you're seeing is a statistical error, nothing more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.213.160.228 ( talk) 03:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Titanium i dont believe you understood the point that he was trying to make the IQ tests as we know it test merely your Potential to make it in western academic institutions or in general: in the western society those tests come up with questions that predict how likely you will be a scientist for example but becoming a scientist doesnt nedessarily take intelligence scientific work for ecample takes many virtues: discipline, teamskills, hard work and others so if the question in the IQ test gives higher points only to people who later become doctors and lawyers that doesnt mean necessarily that it tested intelligence it might have tested a wild mixture of propertys but still its the only validation asd the psychologist above stated and this has nothing to do with racism it has more to do which skills WE as westerners need to survive and strive in this western civilization other peoples might need other skills in their societys so its a wild speculation that these tests are aplyable to compare others than westerners with each others also if u cant even really answer what Intelligence actually is, that what are you actually testing? also these test have nothing to do with racism but are more of a shortcircuit tests made by people of our culture to test people of our culture so basically these iq tests mostlikely imply, trhat a certain amount of knowledge about the western world are necessary, what i basically whant to say is if these tests are constructed in such a way that they test our abilitys to make it in this society as a academic or anything else, then isnt it only logic that people who are part of a different upbringing and surrounbdings will have lower results? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.176.34.219 ( talk) 23:55, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Genome projects and other biological studies have found no genetic differences which cause differences in intelligence capacity or differences in neural wiring between humans based on race. [3]
while i think above is true, it definitely needs a better reliable source, and am therefore temporarily removing the reference. 79.101.242.230 ( talk) 22:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
The purpose of investigating a genetic cause of the disparity in socio-economic-status (SES), performance, and intelligence is to determine if it is fair to discriminate against a good performer on the bases of ethnicity or race, which discrimination is currently plentiful. Morally and legally, governments should always provide greater support to ethnic groups that are in greater need - that is without question. However to prejudice a group because it performs well, or try to sabotage the performance of a group, is unfair if the reasons for that group's good performance are genetic, as apposed to, say, because of historical bullying of the under-performing group. If it can be conclusively shown that intelligence is 75% genetic (as some studies purport to do) then it is clear that no amount of environmental bias will ever completely remove the disparity in SES; and it would give governments better predictive power as to the outcome of targeted spending, education programs, and affirmative action. A conclusive result would ultimately be beneficial for every ethnic group. A falsified result would be worse for every ethnic group. It is important to see this in the context of other countries besides the USA that have greater racial asymmetries in SES.
It is absurd to say that such research only exists to bolster racial hatred amongst white supremacists, because the very same research consistently shows Japanese, Koreans, Chinese and Ashkenazi Jews to perform far better than they.
I therefore suggest the article should be extended to discuss the importance of intelligence research in the context of "reverse-racism" happening around the world as well as in the USA. Otherwise the article is indeed no more than a festering pool for a specific brand of Aryan/Anglo-Saxon racial hatred and should be removed from Wikipedia altogether.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulsheer ( talk • contribs) 16:28, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
what is the difference between the two? 79.101.242.230 ( talk) 22:20, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
According to Lynn's 2004 review of Ashkenazi Jews IQ, the estimate of half a standard deviation is for verbal IQ or gC and not for IQ, which comprise gF and gC, or verbal IQ and performance IQ. Therefore, I suggest we remove the claim of an IQ of 110-115 among Ashkenazi Jews according to three old researches. It is simply biased and in Lynn's own terms "unrepresentative".
http://www.apfn.net/Messageboard/02-14-04/discussion.cgi.24.html
Removing this message is unwarranted by Wikipedia policies, Captain Occam. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aerain ( talk • contribs) 15:53, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
For a summary of Backman's (1972) work please see "The Jewish Mind":
You'll find raw data summaries and discussion in the google books preview (pages 294-296) Aprock ( talk) 21:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
"This high IQ and corresponding high academic ability have been long known. In 1900 in London Jews took a disproportionate number of academic prizes and scholarships in spite of their poverty (Russell and Lewis, 1900). In the 1920s a survey of IQ scores in three London schools (Hughes, 1928) with mixed Jewish and non-Jewish student bodies showed that Jewish students had higher IQs than their schoolmates in each of three school, one prosperous, one poor, and one very poor. The differences between Jews and non-Jews were all slightly less than one standard deviation. The students at the poorest Jewish school in London had IQ scores equal to the overall city mean of non-Jewish children. The Hughes study is important because it contradicts a widely cited misrepresentation by Kamin (Kamin, 1974) of a paper by Henry Goddard (Goddard, 1917). Goddard gave IQ tests to people suspected of being retarded, and he found that the tests identified retarded Jews as well as retarded people of other groups. Kamin reported, instead, that Jews had low IQs, and this erroneous report was picked up by many authors including Stephen Jay Gould, who used it as evidence of the unreliability of the tests (Seligman, 1992)." http://homepage.mac.com/harpend/.Public/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Khurshid85 ( talk • contribs) 01:37, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I’ve removed a few irrelevant and/or unsourced statements from this article (such as the bit about eugenics), and added some relevant and notable information which it didn’t previously include, and which is properly cited. I’m hoping no one will disagree with these edits, but if anyone does, I’d appreciate them discussing it here rather than simply reverting them. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 16:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
There is a part of the "Flynn's effect" section that doesn't make any sense, although I'm not suggesting it to be erased or edited, because it does cite references. The part is the following one:
"Other recent studies have found that g has improved substantially.[118][119] Cranial vault size has increased and the shape changed during the last 150 years in the US; these changes must occur by early childhood because of the early development of the vault.[120] It also estimated that the average white IQ in past decades was lower than current average black IQs, a fact which shows the change of IQ over time. [121] But while black Americans in the early 21st century may score higher than white Americans in the early 19th century, the fact remains that the roughly 1 standard deviation IQ gap between black and white Americans living at the same time has held constant since the earliest days of intelligence testing, convincing some observers like Richard Lynn that the black-white gap in the U.S. is not only genetic, but 100% genetic. Indeed Arthur Jensen is struck by how consistent the gap has been, despite the enormous rise in the scores of both races".
What on Earth would explain that IQ may change over time, being, therefore, not immutable, while racial gap would hold constant over time? This is equivalent to say that, despite IQ being innate, it may vary over time due to unknow circumstances, but racial gap may not. Racial gap would not only be innate, but immutable!
It seems that every time one points out the fallacy of the genetic hypothesis, racist academics manage to bring up some "evidence" to support it.
Please, notice that I'm not only making a moral judgement of the above-cited paragraph, but also pointing out what seems to be an unfundamented claim: if IQ may vary over time within the same race, why couldn't IQ racial gap vary, too?
The only thing that persisted over time practically unmodified was racism and its harmful effects. I'm not forgetting about all the changes occurred since the civil rights movement began in the mid-20th century, including Obama's victory. But I imagine no one can deny that racism still persists and racist structural effects are still damaging people's lives. The more I read, more I get convinced that the IQ gap is, if not entirely, at least mostly impacted by environmental factors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.198.217.194 ( talk) 19:42, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
This article is unbalanced in that there are 40 references to Rushton, which is excessive, unless Wikipedia wants to be construed as a public relations machine to sell Rushton's books. Skywriter ( talk) 19:48, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Rushton happens to be a psychologist and expert on the field. And the vast majority of references you are talking about are mere name-mentioning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Niño-wr ( talk • contribs) 21:02, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
The archives of this article will demonstrate that there was discussion that http://www.lrainc.com/swtaboo/taboos/apa_01.html Stalking the Wild Taboo - APA Statement on The Bell Curve- Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns egregiously distorts the study by the American Psychological Association and should not be used. At the time, I provided direct references to the APA document on the APA site. Unless those links can be resurrected, no cite is better than using this intellectually dishonest and unreliable source. wp:rs Skywriter ( talk) 20:52, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
New user has three times added unrelated material from book by Michael Levin on topic of slave reparations. I've tried to gently persuade this user that this is irrelevant to this article. Skywriter ( talk) 08:29, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
The added material is related to the article in that it is about refutation of the slavery argument which is discussed in the same section the material was added in. And actually the topic of that book is race and intelligence, not slave reparations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Niño-wr ( talk • contribs) 08:43, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
I reverted two undiscussed deletions: one based on the claim that McPherson was fringe (where is the evidence to support it?) and one in the history section based on the claim that the book it came from didn't discuss race and intelligence(when the section is about racism and its history - and so is the source of the ref). I'd like to invite further discussion of this, as both deletions seem dubious to me.-- Ramdrake ( talk) 21:39, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
The History section of the article may not currently be in compliance with the following Wikipedia policies:
The examples and perspective in this article may not represent a
worldwide view of the subject. (December 2010) |
This article starts out with a statement that race and intelligence are two human characteristics and throughout the article the word race is used without providing a definition. What is meant by race? In what way is it a human characteristic? This article is written in a way that presupposes that race refers to something reflected in the genetic makeup of individual racial groups - so that if there is a difference in intelligence in a racial group it might be explained by their unique genetic composition. Is there any actual scientific basis for this assumption? That is, certain phenotypes that are markers of racial difference can be assumed to have a genetic basis. That does not, however, mean that the categorization based on those phenotypes reflect an underlying biological category. The biological reality of racial categories is something that needs to be proven, and cannot simply be presupposed as a starting point for a discussion about race.
As an anthropologist I don't think that race refers to an biological reality, but rather to arbitrary cultural distinctions. If there is an actual biological basis for racial categorizations I'd be interested in seeing what it is. If not, this article needs to be edited to reflect that race is not a scientific concept. -- Alabasterj ( talk) 01:56, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
"As an anthropologist I don't think that race refers to an biological reality, but rather to arbitrary cultural distinctions. If there is an actual biological basis for racial categorizations I'd be interested in seeing what it is. If not, this article needs to be edited to reflect that race is not a scientific concept." As an anthropologist how can you not believe in race? Bone structure alone is enough to determine race. When anthropologists look at human skulls they can easily tell the region of the globe that the person the skull belonged to originated. Asians tend to have thicker foreheads than people from other parts of the globe. Just by eying people on the street it as easy to estimate their genetic region of origin as it is to visually differentiate breeds of dogs. Race is a genetic fact, unarguably, and any good anthropologist will tell you that. Now if race has any real effects on intelligence is more than open to debate and you can be as politically correct on that as you want to be. I'll support you in it. But please don't be the fool that claims that race is not a biological reality, it's a political claim, not a scientific one.
I inserted a see also section with the following links:
but was denied due to WP:UNDUE... any explanation how WP:UNDUE is a concern? 204.124.182.189 ( talk) 14:13, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I have re-inserted the section. 204.124.182.189 ( talk) 15:41, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
"This paper provides new data on the theory that Jews have a higher average level of verbal intelligence than non-Jewish whites. The theory is considered by examining the vocabulary scores of Jews, non-Jewish whites, blacks and others obtained in the American General Social Surveys carried out by the National Opinion Research Centre in the years 1990–1996. Vocabulary size is a good measure of verbal intelligence. Jews obtained a significantly higher mean vocabulary score than non-Jewish whites, equivalent to an IQ advantage of 7.5 IQ points. The results confirm previous reports that the verbal IQ of American Jews is higher than that of non-Jewish whites."
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V9F-48761M2-B&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1009383794&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=20d4adee70c91c748c631ffbe955a902 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aerain ( talk • contribs) 18:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
The tags at the top of the article seem to be spurious, or have been ignored for a long time. They seem to be inserted into the article merely to detract from the topic. They should be removed (other than the one suggesting input from an expert on the topic). As I see there is no active discussion on the tags, I am going to go ahead and remove them (again). At least one of them is a year and a half old. Fixentries ( talk) 11:15, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Well what do you want to do with the article. The tags are pretty much just vandalism if there is no intent to fix the problems. Ramdrake has indicated they have been there for years, and that he and others have given up on changing the article. They also indicate that the article is unacceptable because it gives equal time to both sides of the issue. I'm not sure I see a solution but I'm open to anything constructive we can do to word the article fairly (and the problem seems to be that it's already worded fairly). Fixentries ( talk) 22:17, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
In science no evidence is incontrovertible. Fixentry, you seem to have a highly distorted view of science - you think it is either the truth, or speculation. I am afraid you are sounding more like a theologican than a scientist. For scientists, nothing is incontroverable, but that does NOT make things equally speculative. Scientists make arguments, supported by evidence. Which scientists has the most evidence, analyzed appropriately, determines who, at any given time, is winning a debate. Of course the winner can always change - if someone marshalls more evidence analyzed more appropriately, but this does not mean that what came before was just speculation!
Fixentry makes another profound mistake - she seems to think that the methods of one science should be applied by other sciences. Wow! imagine if biologists relied on the methods of geologists! This is just bizarre! Appropriate methods depend on the object of study. The kinds of problems sociologists investigate should not be studied through controlled experiments. But sociologists collect vast amounts of data, and have rigorous statistical means for determining sufficient sample size, the reliability of the means for collecting data (e.g. a questionnaire) and the significance of the resulte. These matters - sample size, validity and reliability, and significance, are neither arbitrary nor subjective, they are based on the fundamentals of statistics, which is the basis for all modern science. ad sociology is as possible as bad chemistry. It will just be bad for different reasons. With chemistry, the lab equipment may be broken, or the devices for measurement may be poorly calibrated. In sociology one may have an inadequate sample size, an unreliable instrument, or insignificant results. But precisely because bad sociology is possible, good sociology is possible too. Now, again, please tell me which of the studies in this volume do you consider bad sociology, and why? Slrubenstein | Talk 01:17, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I’ve been following this discussion on and off since 2007, I have a fairly good understanding of the issues involved in it. The main issue here is that the proportions of views on this topic as explained/expressed in popular sources (such as newspapers and magazines) is not the same as the proportion represented in professional literature. Since I read both, I’m able to compare them.
In popular literature, this is regarded as a fringe theory, so some editors seem to want to base this theory’s coverage on that. But if you look at the professional literature, you’ll see something quite different. As an example, the June 2005 issue of the peer-reviewed journal Psychology, Public Policy and Law is devoted to this debate. And they regard it as a real scientific debate, not like the “controversy” over creationism vs. evolution. The six papers in this issue of the journal are available here. While not all of them agree with the hereditarian hypothesis, all of them take it seriously as a scientific theory, and the issue’s features article (Thirty years of research on race differences in cognitive ability by Jensen and Rushton) views this theory favorably.
Comparing this to a true fringe theory such as creationism, we can see what the difference is. One would never see an issue of a biology journal devoted to the creation/evolution controversy containing papers arguing both sides, and with their feature article written by a creationist in defense of the creationist viewpoint.
NPOV#Undue_weight explains the difference between a fringe view and a significant-minority view. Quoting that page: “If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents”. Arthur Jensen, E. O. Wilson, Linda Gottfredson, James Watson, and Hans Eysenck are all examples of that in this case. As a result, the hereditarian hypothesis about race and intelligence does not meet Wikipedia’s criteria for a fringe theory. That doesn’t mean the article can’t be improved—if Rushton specifically is being given too much coverage, then more of the information about the herediterian hypothesis ought to be cited to other more prominent scientists who support it. But the actual scope of the article's coverage of this theory was established by consensus quite some time ago, while considering points such as the ones I made above. -- Captain Occam ( talk) 00:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Captain Occam, I agree that psychologists are experts in intelligence testing. Do you agree with me that geneticists are experts in heredity? If so can you tell me how many geneticists (Phd.s and active research in genetics) would agree that the main or principle explanation for differences in IQ scores between diferent races is inheritance, i.e. some genetic factor? Slrubenstein | Talk 01:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Watson actually did research on the genetics of intelligence? That is news to me! You seem to be misunderstandin me. When I ask what geneticists have to say, I mean of course geneticists specifically researching differences in IQ. To take my point any other way seems to lead to arguing from authority, which we should avoid at Wikipedia. I do not care whether someone got the nobel prize - if they have not conducted actual research on the inheritance of IQ, their opinions do not matter. You wonder what my point is, and this is it: when we want to know what mainstream science is, we look at what is mainstream among active researchers and expertes in the field. The article on Evolution does not consider the views of astronomers, even astronomers or astrophysicists who may have wom the nobel prize. It considers the views of evolutionary biologists, i.e. the real experts on the topic. If we want to know what is the mainstream science on the genetic basis for intelligence, we should look at geneticists who are actively researching genetics and intelligence. So I ask again, how many of these people believe that genetics is a major component of the reason for between-group differences in IQ? Slrubenstein | Talk 01:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Again, Fixentries seems not to understand the science. No scholar - whether in social science or life science - will deny that inheritance has a great deal to do with human intelligence. The structure of the human brain and its functioning are the results of over two million years of evolution. Human intelligence is different from Chimpanzee or Gorilla (our nearest relatives) intelligence - in degree or kind, depending on your view of evolutionary theory - precisely because of human evolution, which involves a complex interplay of physical environment, social environment, and genetics, and everyone who believes in the theory of speciation through natural selection understands that environment (which selects) and genes (which generate variation) play a roughly equal role. Certainly genetics has a great deal to do with human intelligence.
The question is what role genetics plays in explaining variation in intelligence between groups of humans. This is a different and very specific question and the mainstream answer is, not much.
Captain Occam, I think it is entirely reasonable to expect people with PhDs in evolutionary biology or genetics to understand genetics much better than people not trained in evolutionary biology and genetics. I have some training in genetics, enough to know that most psychologists who use the term "heritability" misuse it. I prefer to think it is because they misunderstand it, and are not willfully trying to distort science. And I think it is reasonable to say that they might misunderstand it because they were not trained in genetics. Surely there are things pyschologists are trained in, and spend their lives researching, that they therefore have expertise in. When I learn of a psychologist who claims to be researching genetics and intelligence, I usually learn that while they may have a great deal of training in intelligence, they actualy have little or no training in genetics. I am skeptical of their claims about genetics precisely for the same reasons I respect their claims about intelligence. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:46, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Occam, sorry about the outdenting thing - there are different conventions at WP but, if people keep indenting, things end up being harder to read. I agree with most of what you say. I resist talking about the hereditarian hypothesis in the abstract. There is a fair amount of evidence that Rushton's arguments are considered by many researchers to be fringe. I am not sure I would make the same claim about Jensen although the two are often lumped together. And please note, I am not saying that a psychologist cannot make authoritative claims about genetics, only that they would be authoritative only if the psychologist has training in genetics. This is certainly possible through post-docs, it is not uncommon for a scholar who received PhD training in one field to receive supplemental training in another. Please do not interpret what I wrote as a categorical ban on psychologists speaking with authority on this matter. All I am saying is they need to have some training, or something that gives them credentials of some sort, in genetics. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:43, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
- If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
- If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;
- If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article.
- Keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors.
I'm a little confused by this statement by Captain Occam
Occam seems to be arguing here that heritability is a measure of genetic contribution to phenotype. The argument that "some of the variation in the IQ of a group is caused by genes" is not the opposite of the argument "there is no genetic causation to the IQ differences between the groups". But of course it's not. Heritability is an estimate of genetic contribution to variance within a group. In fact something can be 100% heritable and have no genetic causation whatsoever. See Ned Block's essay here. In fact if we want to state the two points of view, they are more like: "there is no sound evidence that genetics causes the observed difference in IQ between different populations" and "because we can estimate that some of the variation in IQ within groups has some genetic causation, then we can assume that between group differences in IQ have some genetic causation". Neither of these positions are easy to understand or explain, but many reputable geneticists and statisticians (in the end this is about statistics) have written about the fallacy of the second proposition. Alun ( talk) 18:26, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
The big problem here is that the major research by geneticists concerning intelligence is not about "race." Genetic arguments about race are virtually always fringe, because they misrepresent actual research by geneticists.
What is at stake here is not which side of an argument on race and IQ any editor falls on. What is at stake is how we wite articles. If we want an article to represent research by geneticists, what we should do is find the major articles first and then report what they say. So far, peope have been looking for those articles specifically on genetics and race. This of course is a circular method - if you start out looking for race and IQ you will of course end up finding race and IQ. But what if we took another method and just started out with, research on intelligence by geneticists. Do they use the concept "race?" Or do they do something else? lt us stat out by being agnostic and just ask: what do geneticists studyingintelligence talk about?
Study on the biology of IQ hinges on twin studies. Here is a fair sample of the major sources. To start us off, I propose we look at these articles:
I repeat, the point is not to cherry-pick quotes that we agree or disagree with. The point is to examine reliable sources to find out - yes, find out, as if e may actually learn something new - what the notable views are. I just looked for the major research by geneticists on intelligence, that is all. So, are they arguing about race? Or something else?
It turns out, the answer is "something else." I swear, I did not start out looking for this "something else." I just started out looking for top articles on intelligence and genetics. From what I gather from this literature, most of the current scholarship - mainstream scholarship - on IQ scores is not even concerned with the debate "is it environmental or is it genetic."
Virtually all scientific research on the genetic determinants of variation in IQ scores is based on twin studies and above (perhaps now in archived talk) I provided a bibliography of major (i.e. from major peer-reviewed journal journals, and which are frequently cited) articles. These studies indicate an ongoing debate between scientists who measure the heritability of intelligence at .40, and others who measure it at between .60 and .70.
In addition to these contrasting calculations, there is a debate over the effects of of the shared prenatal environment - some argue that identical blood supply should lead to greater similarities between monochoriatic twins than dichorionic twins; others argue that competition for blood supply should lead to greater differences between monochorionic twins than dichorionic twins. This, it turns out, is the big debate among geneticists studying intelligence. What is important, in explaining variance within a population (genetically related people) is the prenatal environment. These geneticists are not looking at genetic explanations for differences in IQ between diferent groups because of the principle of heritability (you cannot compare variance in intelligence between groups, only within groups.
There is, it turns out, a body of literature on genetics and IQ, and I provided many citations above, and obviously an article on this research must be organized around the most notable and mainstream views on the matter - it should include all notable views ... but I think that the major notable views should be the principle factor in the organization and presentation of the article. I think we need to have a good article that provides a clear account of this research and these controversies. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:07, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Okay, if you want to distinguish between heritability of IQ and race and IQ, I'd say: heritability of IQ is what is studied by geneticists, race and IQ is what it studied by sociologists, as "race" in this context is a social rather than genetic category. But my point was more about the method for researching an article: if you want to know what geneticists think, start by looking for the main research by geneticists, and then see what they are debating, what their questions and conclusions are ... people working on this article seem to be going the opposite way around, starting with the answers they like and just looking for sources. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:35, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Slrubenstein: You have not provided citations for all your claims about genetics. You offered some thoroughly tangential citations from twin's studies. Do you have any citations to support your claims about population genetics? Specifically your claim that, if I may try to paraphrase, a trait being heritable in individuals has no possible bearing on population genetics? Fixentries ( talk) 10:52, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I see Fixentries has trolled before:
I suggest not responding to this user until they become productive on this talk page. T34CH ( talk) 20:00, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
- If your viewpoint is held by a significant scientific minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents, and the article should certainly address the controversy without taking sides.
(outdent)Captian Occam, I believe you've misquoted WP:UNDUE.
If your viewpoint is held by a significant scientific minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents, and the article should certainly address the controversy without taking sides.
The italicized portion is an addition not in the actual policy. It's part of a comment Jimbo made in 2003, the base of which the policy was written upon, but not policy itself. The Undue Weight clause, which is policy, has evolved over time and taken on more definition and clarity beyond what Jimbo started with as principle. For example, it has been expanded to instruct editors to clearly describe minority viewpoints as minority, and majority as majority, and to not mislead readers as to the shape of the dispute by giving minority views greater weight or proportion than they've earned. Although the spirit was there, none of that was in Jimbo's earlier statement from 2003. -- Nealparr ( talk to me) 22:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Well let's look at a list of how many psychologists explicitly support the heredity position and how many explicitly oppose it. Fixentries ( talk) 01:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
Captain Occam, while I don't want to speak for Ramdrake, I do not think you are doing justice to his general point. I emphasize the "general" because i know you know what my position is and I am not trying to continue an argument where we may just disagree. But there is an important point that we need to be clear about. NPOV is all about views, not viewers. The issue is whether a particular view is mainstream, majority, minority, or fringe. An individual may be world-famous yet hold fringe views. A perrson may hold a view about one thing that is mainstream, and a view about another thing that is fringe. One scholar may publish an article that continues to be cited by everyone in her field (or sub-discipline), and may then publish another article that no one cites, or cites only to attack. This is indeed not that rare in academia. We should not be arguing over whether x is or is not a notable person - this only matters when we debate whether Wikipedia ought to have an article on that person, or whether their bio should be deleted. The question here, is, is this particular view mainstream or fringe. What makes it fringe or mainstream is not the credentials or position of the person holding the views. Even a patent clerk is can write an article that becomes mainstream science! Similarly, someone holding a prestigious chair can publish an article espousing a fringe view. What makes it mainstream or fringe is the degree to which it is accepted by other experts in the field. We can argue over this question. But it is the view that we are discussing. We can't have a clear discussion unless we can look at the view apart from the individual expressing the view. The view has to be considered valid or plausible by a significant number of experts in the field to cross the threshold of a minority view, or needs to be accepted by the vast majority of experts in the field to be considered majority or mainstream. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:44, 8 October 2009 (UTC)