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Why does this table stop at such a low IQ score, I mean someone with an IQ of 140 is hardy a rocket scientist? Unsigned comment by User:172.146.248.166
File:IQ-4races-rotate-highres.png
If you've taken the GRE, or know people who have, this is a good approximation for converting GRE to IQ scores. -- Rikurzhen 07:02, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
Sam Spade 04:59, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Its a picture of different races as defined by the FBI. It serves the purpose of clarifying for the reader what different races are being discussed, and what they look like. The picture of a brain has nothing to do w race, should it be removed? Sam Spade 05:03, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I completely disagree. Sam Spade 05:06, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
The photo represents the races discussed. As with any image on any article, it is representing the subject, in this case race. The picture of the brain represents intellegence. There is no reason not to provide the reader with useful images. Sam Spade 05:12, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
It is very relevant, because the article describes races in the same manner. The concept of "race" is open to a wide range of interpretations. If you read one of the better encyclopedias, you will find it to explain that the very concept of race is objected to as unscientific by many experts of biology and anthropology. Many feel that the only accurate way to define race is blood type and language group. Clearly that sort of definition is not the most commonly used, nor is it the one used in this article. Providing this image clarifies for the reader what classification of races we are using. Sam Spade 05:18, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Do what you like, the reason for keeping them is obvious, and they will be kept. Your suggestion that I havn't read an article that I've been editing since before you created your user account is a bit amusing, i must say. Sam Spade 05:33, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Obviously I have, scroll up. Or better yet, how about you think about it for awhile? Sam Spade 05:49, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
The image seems unnecessary as (1) its hard to imagine anyone not being famaliar with common racial classifications in the US (but if they are, I've added links) and (2) the physical appearance of various races is (to the best of my knowledge) unrelated to their performance on IQ tests. (Relatively unreliable attempts at black/white admixture analysis by skin color seems to support this claim.) -- Rikurzhen 07:30, May 2, 2005 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I also found both images irrelevant, and am glad they have been removed. -- DAD 15:53, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
The function of the mug shots was simply to reinforce the idea that appearance equates to race equates to otherwise difficult to determine characteristics. It does not contribute to having an objective attitude toward the subject under discussion. P0M 00:09, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
from here: An article does not have to have a picture to be featured; however, even if the subject does not have any obvious images associated with it, a suggested picture which could be used to represent it on the Main Page (it can be an abstract symbol that would be too generic for the article itself) is helpful. -- Rikurzhen 05:48, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
sort of a compromise, for this one i set the min value to .005 and the max value to .995, and extended the range slightly; not sure if its really an improvement on readability --
Rikurzhen 08:31, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
done -- Rikurzhen 09:22, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
done -- Rikurzhen 16:52, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
which is better: -- Rikurzhen 17:07, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
1) the current image has more precise SD values for blacks and whites, but less precise for asians and hispancis
File:IQ-4races-rotate-highres.png
2) the bell curve values with fixed SD (I can re-render at high res)
Interesting. Requires an explanation how societes with an average IQ below 75, like in some African countries or in the US earlier, can exist, since apparently most of the population are too stupid for farming or hunting. Ultramarine 02:58, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Two things to keep in mind. (1) the manual labor of hunting and farming are easy enough even for the IQ <75 group; and (2) even a population with a low average IQ has many people with the skills needed to run a farm, etc. The lesson I took away from The Bell Curve was the increasing IQ stratification was placing an increasing burdern on low IQ individuals over the century. -- Rikurzhen 04:12, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
The data in the table is about the US only. So it doesn't seem appropriate or necessary to comment extensively on other countries. -- Rikurzhen 21:19, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
I don't get why it wouldn't be better to stick comments about Africa in the "IQ gaps in other nations" section. Or create an "IQ gaps between nations" section just to discuss this area -- with main artcle links to the wealth of nations article. Then also give see also links to the policy section of this article and the practical importance section of IQ. It just seems odd to tack that bit about Africa on to the end of the table, since it isn't a criticism of the data in the table itself, but rather of the IQ scores reported for Africans -- which at the other end of the article. The reason for my concern is that most people won't read this article from top to bottom. Note the question about Jews below. They probably just read the intro and then give up. So we need to be hyper organized and inviting if we want people to read further. -- Rikurzhen 23:50, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
I know it may be a sensitive question, but i would like to get an answer, as objective as possible, for the question: "what is the average iq of the American Jews and standard deviation?" Amirpedia 05:38, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
No clue about SD. The Bell Curve number (see the article) is based on a sample of like 100 people, but they cite some references to say that number isn't unreasonable.
I've never seen those papers. However, IQ and the Wealth of Nations has a really low number for Israel. -- Rikurzhen 06:08, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
Hernstein & Murray report the average IQ of American Jews at 113. IQ and the Wealth of Nations lists an average IQ for Israel of 94. The explanation for this difference is that nearly all American Jews are of Central/Eastern European ancestry (Askenazic Jews), who have extremely high average IQ's. Ashkenazic Jews make up only about 40% of Israel's population; another 40% is comprised of Jews of Middle Eastern ancestry, who tend to have IQ's similiar to Arabs. The remaining 20% of Israel is comprised of Arabs. According to IQ and the Wealth of Nations, Arab states tend to have average IQ's in the 80's, so Israel's average IQ of 94 results from the higher IQ Askenazic Jews balanced out by the lower-IQ Arabs and Middle-Eastern Jews.
I have several problems with this article. I believe that this article is a racist piece of literature posing as an informative encyclopedia article. It is adorned with references to various scholars to legitimize the propaganda and a few weak counter-arguments to help create the illusion of a well-balanced article. One of the most obvious problems with this article is the use of the term "race." Quite frankly, it seems that either the author does not know the difference between race and ethnicity or has never pondered it. His/her ignorance is exhibited when he/she lists "hispanic" as a racial category and then goes on to discuss Asians, whites and blacks. Would the author be surprised to know that this particular category contains whites, Asians, blacks, Native Americans and mixtures thereof? Perhaps he/she could rename the article "Ethnicity and Intelligence." As a member of a group possessing such a high intelligence quota, he/she should be much more detail-oriented, precise and accurate. Additionally, he/she should be careful about referencing books (e.g. The Bell Curve) that are authored by people who do not possess expertise in the field about which they write.
I find the argument untenable that race is not understood well enough by the average reader or that the linked race article is not a sufficent source for background on that topic. The word "Hispanics" should likewise be clear to the average reader. While more precise breakdowns of categories like Hispanic and Asian American would be nice, they are not widely used because of the US census definition of race. We are all well aware of the race/ethnicity dichotomy, but clearly race is the issue here and going to lengths to point out that Hispanics can be of many races does little to add to the article. -- Rikurzhen 07:59, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
...But I don't know how to do that. -- DAD 02:26, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
done -- Rikurzhen 07:59, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
The article has one short paragraph that, as Data might say, "does not compute." -- at least for me:
To pull the main parts of the first sentence out, it seems to say:
C, O, and R found structure. Does that mean "a structure?" Or is the sentence intended to assert that "structure" or "ordered assembly of parts of some kind" exists out there somewhere?
The word "structure," whatever it means, is modified by the prepositional phrase "on psychometric variables". Is that like "on the floor"? or "on his behalf"? Or what?
I would guess, based on my knowledge of social context, that the writer is trying to assert that when one looks at a set of psychometric variables that can be measured for each group, there is some kind of "structure" to those variables. Let me guess. Maybe that means that when one compares IQ scores and scores of some set of measures of frustration then one finds, across groups, that higher IQ scores predict lower measures of frustration. Is that what the author is really trying to say? Or something else? This sentence does not convey any clear meaning to me.
The second sentence can be interpreted several ways. Maybe "factor structure" is intended to be a meaningful assemblage of words. Maybe it is intended to convey the idea of a structure of factors. Or, maybe "structure of cognitive ability" is the right group of words to look at, and maybe it stands in apposition to "factor" (in which case there should be commas fore and aft). Is either of these two things asserted to be nearly identical for the two [races]? Or is neither of my guesses correct?
If some assertions in the article accurately represent authorities in this field they merit critical comment.
In the last couple of decades it has become abundantly clear that most of the language learning that humans do occurs during the first 3 years of life. After that, one is more-or-less on a plateau. Infants are hungry sponges, and what gets absorbed at that point seems to form the foundation for all future learning. It's possible to make further gains, but the older one gets the more early deficiencies tend to get in one's way. Contrary to what the paragraph asserts, the earlier in life one is the more important are cultural effects. P0M 02:02, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
there must be some word that is acceptable to describe the aspects of one's environment that are of a social nature; i thought culture was clear enough of a distinction between the social environment of a 3 year old and that of a 16 year old. what term can be substituted to point out this distinction? -- Rikurzhen 08:02, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
The following passage refers to "r" and "k" without any indication of what they mean. Even if they had been mentioned earlier in the article they would need a word or two each to remind people of what they are.
The second paragraph in a chart that is supposed to pertain to IQ ranges in the US says:
I think that paragraph just doesn't belong where it has been placed, but if it does belong there then the chart would seem to include data on non-US populations in describing the US population. P0M 02:32, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Some of the content in this article question why Chinese and/or other Asian immigrants to the US should test so high if minority status and/or low economic status disadvantages people. This kind of assertion is another point where I have to question whether it is the authors of this article or the authors of the scientific studies being reported who have not informed themselves fully. I don't believe that we can have a good article unless these issues are sorted out properly. Low economic status is indeed a hindrance to gaining a university education or even, sometimes, to making it all the way through high school. But some immigrants come to the US with a culturally acquired value that tells them that education and hard work are the keys to a good life. Chinese people, for instance, may arrive completely destitute and knowing no English, but that does not mean that they are lacking in intelligence, in formal education, or in street smarts. Very frequently people with these values will willingly sacrifice their comfort and risk their health for the sake of the success of their children. P0M 02:49, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't see any contradiction between what's written in the article and the points you've made. -- Rikurzhen 08:05, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
The article has another sentence that leaves me puzzled:
Is the author of this sentence offering the possibility that IQ gaps do not indicate differences in intelligence? Or is s/he just trying to say, "Even if there actually are differences in intelligence..."?
This image [2] shows that whites constantly score higher than asians on SAT tests, perhaps we need a graph overhaul? - Molloy
"In his 1839 Crania Americana, anthropologist Samuel George Morton reported that the mean cranial capacity of the skulls of Whites was 87 in³, while that of Blacks was 78 in³. Based on the measurement of 144 skulls of Native Americans, he reported an a figure of 82in³."
Should we remark that the experiment is only a historical note? The experiment has been harshly revisited for its unscientific sampling (Morton took whatever few skulls he could collect over years). Some call it "fabricated".
lots of issues | leave me a message 08:46, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
And is a bit longwinded. Satellite articles anyone? Tedneeman 00:30, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
The references are what really push the size up. I can't imagine a reasonable split. -- Rikurzhen 00:57, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
"Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence" The Economist NYT pre-print PDF -- Rikurzhen 05:16, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
Here's another newspaper report. If people think this doesn't fit in this article, could it go in Ashkenazi or American Jews? -- Rikurzhen 23:38, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
If someone feels like starting a Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence article, here's a public domain criticism that could be included. -- Rikurzhen 18:33, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
If this theory is true, shall the U.S. end the affirmative action and persecute the Blacks? I mean the U.S. government can ban Blacks from becoming singers and basketball players and limit their choice of jobs to be lawyers and medical doctors only. If you're Black and you can't finish high school before 18, you're dead. If you're Black and you fail to become the next Johnnie Cochran before 25, you're dead. If you're Black and people don't vote you to be the next President of the United States, you're dead.
I guess the Black population will almost extinct in 10 years. But the remaining Blacks will be Übermensch.
Will the affirmative action cause the Blacks to be less and less intelligent in the long run, if this story is of any reference value? On the other hand, will Whites and Asians in the U.S., being discriminated by the policy, become more and more intelligent in the future?
Jews were being persecuted in the past. However, they were forced to take brainy jobs. In contrast, Blacks were just slaves in the U.S. That's the difference. I don't think being forced to work in a cotton field is the job that takes the biggest brain to perform. So are today's burger-flipper jobs.
China has a long history of civilization (a.k.a. examinations, since the Tang Dynasty 1,400 years ago). Before Tang Dynasty, people were also study hard. In a typical Chinese society, the tiered society is constantly changing at a slow but steady pace:
I think that was the selective pressure. The exam had been thesis writing for the past 1,300 years. I guess that also elevated the average score of verbal tests to the Chinese. I mean vergal tests! -- My true identity: The Depth-Challenged Throat 19:11, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
So far as I know, race and intelligence is mostly a U.S. issue. Theories are developed to explain or do away the clearly visible gap between Black and White. Most other countries have minorities, but the internal racial conflicts are usually not as bad as that of the U.S (I mean the undertow). In some countries, peoples are equally poor economically; in many others, races co-existed over the past thousands of years however they hated each other. I think we need to make this more explicit. -- My true identity: The Depth-Challenged Throat 17:45, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
To the extent that the U.S. is a very racially diverse society, and to the extent that the most solid research has been performed in the U.S., it is a U.S. issue. But it could also be described as a global issue, for example IQ and the Wealth of Nations. -- Rikurzhen 20:22, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
The claim about low average IQ societies being impossible seems to be based on a confusion of the many degress and causes of mental retardation. It should be backed off to a more moderate claim or the blame for that misunderstanding should be placed on a particular paper. -- Rikurzhen 16:44, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
In a population with IQ mean=70 SD=15 (probably over-estimate), only 9% of the population will have IQ<50, only 15% will have IQ<55. The division between mild and moderate mental retardation is 50-55. The division between moderate and severe is IQ 30-35, which is less than 1% of such a population. REF -- Rikurzhen 17:56, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
Mercury poisoning and lower IQ are the only connections I could find with Google. -- Rikurzhen 17:18, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
Ahh. That's interesting. -- Rikurzhen 17:51, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
I'm inclined to submit this article for "peer review" so that it can go up for featured article status. I had thought that by not fussing with such things it would avoid the kind of taboo-response we've seen with the VfD, but the many positive comments in the VfD thread has changed my mind. Any reason not to? -- Rikurzhen 20:06, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
I put it up. we'll see if there's any good feedback. -- Rikurzhen 07:07, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)
are studies of differential academic achievement worth including? for example, two recent books: -- Rikurzhen 04:42, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
three studies from the 2005 PPPL paper: -- Rikurzhen 23:45, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)
What are you referring to? The metanalysis published by APA show nothing like this [5]. Ultramarine 00:14, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I got copies of the papers. Skimming them, the descriptions by Rushton and Jensen are correct. I took note of the malnutrition, which was the topic we were most uncertain about. In Clark (1982), 14 of the 25 kids had been hospitalized for malnutrition. Also, Clark summarizes Winick (1975) similarly to Rushton. It looks like the authors of the review paper didn't read these papers very carefully. -- Rikurzhen 04:31, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
On reflection most of this adoption data is pretty much crap. Without behavior genetic controls, it's just a guess about what is really going on here with respect to genetic/environment. Unforutunately, adoption is also a more direct experiment, so we're beholden to report it. -- Rikurzhen 07:04, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't the existence of an "Asian" group actually undermine the whole genetic argument? As used in the US, "Asian" includes not only Chinese, Japanese and Koreans (who have more shared genes with one another than they do with Europeans) but also Indians, who have a stronger shared genetic heritage with Europeans? Or am I missing something? Guettarda 13:31, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
also... The genetic structure of Indian populations are complex. ref -- Rikurzhen 21:34, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
The indegenous Malays in Malyasia are not classified as "South Asian". See South Asia. Malaysia is in South-East Asia. -- Ankmin 06:10, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think the main problem with this article, and intelligence quotient, is that they assume intelligence as defined by IQ is a fundamental thing. It is not; it is merely a definition. Perhaps this article should be renamed "Race and IQ". Sure, when intelligence is defined by IQ, which is based on Western ideals of intelligence and knowledge, there will be differences between races. But this has nothing to do with raw brainpower, which is generally what people assume is meant by intelligence. It is quite probable that "raw brainpower" is unmeasurable by any pen-and-paper test.
Because of this misconception (IQ = intelligence), the article implies some races have fundamentally less mental ability. What it really shows is that some races are better at IQ tests / better at achieving in Western-style education systems etc... ··gracefool | ☺ 22:39, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I believe gracefool's point is valid. Intelligence is a classic instance of the "black box." We don't know what is in the black box. We feed it inputs and receive its outputs. If we feed it a series of problems that have right and wrong answers, then we can measure the rate at which the black box returns correct correct answers and call that intelligence. But we don't know whether there is a single main-frame computer inside the box, or a bunch of special-purposes computers that work in parallel and may be of different levels of excellence. Whether there is a single factor called "g" depends on which picture of the brain is correct. Maybe "g" is just an average of the scores of multiple capabilities. But in that case, who has a higher "g" will very often depend on how we scale our grades of these capabilities.
Rather than implying that there is necessarily a real "intelligence" that we are measuring, it would be much less problematical to be up-front about what we are doing. One related idea: most if not all animals test better on "intelligence" tests when they are actively interested in solving the problem entirely for their own reasons. P0M 02:07, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Back to the original question at the top of this section for a moment, I don't particularly like "IQ" either. How about "Race and the Measure of Intelligence," and then in the immediately following text highlight the idea that measuring something(s) in a black box is an uncertain business at best.
The issues Rikurzhen has just reiterated regarding the pop view of race and the various attempts to make meaningful categories of humans by considering genetically related "families" is a major stumbling block or maybe I should call it a tar baby. But maybe it is also a good opportunity to educate the general reader about just how iffy both [race] and [intelligence] are. BTW I just thought of a couple of examples of presumed measures of intelligence that may be appropriate for discussion. I started learning Chinese in 1960, when I was 20 years old. I lived in Taiwan for 7 years. But learning that language has never been easy, nor have all those years of study led me to the level where I might do well on the Chinese equivalent of a GRE. I think that there are two reasons involved. One is that humans seem to learn languages better the earlier they start. Something appears to solidify in the brain at around the beginning of adolescence, and after that time language acquisition is a definite "add-on" kind of thing -- something that is added on to one's native language. But the other thing is that as an infant, living 24 hours/day with well educated and intelligent parents, one is exposed to things that demand to have a name, e.g., "pinwheel." Those names stick, even though they will probably never come up on an intelligence test. By the time an infant is 3 s/he already has a very large proportion of his/her language ability. "Wolf children" recovered from the wild after around the age 11 never learn enough of any language to be useful. So I think that, e.g., for a Japanese student to start learning English at ae 12 and then be able to pass an American college entrance exam in English in the 99th percentile would indicate a much higher "g" than the same exam result produced by a native speaker of English.
Put it another way, I am constitutionally retarded when it comes to learning Chinese, and I think that the same experimental finding would be made by testing the IQ of any adult who learned Navaho tracking skills at age 20 after having grown up in the caves of steel somewhere. To learn that skill successfully seems to depend on the mind being a very active sponge capable of sopping up all kinds of minutiae actually spending ten or more years doing little else. It also seems that learning the game that the Japanese call "go" has a cut-off point. It seems that almost anybody can learn the rules of play, but that nobody has ever become a go master who started after about the age of ten.
Let's be sure that we pay adequate attention to the politics of "race and intelligence" too. What needs are said to be served by these measurements? To what use are these measurements actually put? Are people using calculations of "low IQ" to freeze people out of educational opportunities? (Don't budget more money for primary schools on the west side. They're too dull to benefit from it.) Or are people using calculations of "low IQ" to indicate prior training that hasn't brought these individuals up to the levels at which they are capable of functioning? Are there tests that have been designed as dual measures of intelligence and competency?
I'll give you an example of what I mean by the difference between underlying intelligence and competency. I encountered one 15 year old student in a disciplinary school who did not even know his multiplication tables. Obviously he was a total dud in math class. But I used the analogy of somebody laying foot-square tiles on the floor of a new kitchen to teach him the idea of area, then got him to see that you could cut and swap a parallelogram so that it became the familiar rectangle whose area you already knew how to calculate. As quickly as I drew the shapes for triangles and other such figures he could give me the formula for computing their areas.
To me. the general reader needs to be educated more about the difficulties and ambiguities and public policy consequences of the research than about any assertions that have been made about the intelligence of various races. P0M 14:46, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Regarding recent changes ... Why we can't replace intelligence with IQ in the intro ... Psychologists no longer treat the mind as if it were a black box and behaviorism is no longer mainstream. Many suggest there is more to intelligence than IQ, but no one has shown they can measure any other aspect of intelligence that isn't mostly IQ/g. Also, the article dedicates considerable space to brain measurements and reaction time tests, which are not IQ tests, although they are correlated with IQ. Changing intelligence to IQ would enforce a minority POV of this topic. -- Rikurzhen 10:07, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
I'm with Rikurzhen on the title and general usage. "IQ" is inaccurate, "intelligence" is simple, and the controversy is acknowledged. Titles convey general content, rarely nuance, and the present one does the duty well. -- DAD 05:57, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Suggestion from peer review ... which is better? (in form, not presentation) suggestions for improvement? -- Rikurzhen 07:33, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
Graphs hidden -- Rikurzhen 22:15, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
I am really fond of Rikurzhen's last version (with 'simplified' and 'filled' bell curves). As I already mentioned on the Peer Review page, it does a number of important things: (1) it's easy to understand for the nonspecialist. If you've ever seen a bell curve, or just a frequency bar chart, then you know what it means. (2) It makes it clear that the main variance is within groups. (3) It puts the focus on means. To the casual reader, the cumulative distributions shows that "all blacks are dumber than whites", because the black curve is always below the white one. Rest assured that I understand that this is not so, but that's not important. We are already targeting a fraction of the population when we show a bell curve, but that fraction becomes even smaller when we start off the article with a cumulative distribution.
Remember that we are only talking about how to present this information in the introduction, as an eye-catcher that hopefully tells a large part of the story. The new image does this. The old one didn't. I completely understand the merits of the old one with respect to accuracy and information content. From that point of view it's much better, and maybe we want to keep both. Actually, maybe that is worth thinking about -- we can keep the old graph with all the numbers and mention Wechsler and statisticscruft and psychometric technobabble, just like it is now. But move it down. In the introduction, we have an attractive, dumbed-down version of the same information. (Looks like a million bucks, by the way. Good job.) Arbor 19:39, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Question: Shouldn't we include Ashkenazi Jews in the distribution graph? Right now the graph is misleading people into thinking that Asians are the most intelligent ethnic group, when in fact the Ashkenazim really are. Dd2 22:25, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The article is much improved by having the PDF graph in the intro, not the CDF graph. As other editors have stated, it makes clear to the first-time viewer that the main variation is within-group, not between-groups, and avoids the illusion that "all group X are smarter than group Y". -- Karada 13:43, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Nice to see a history section added. Maybe it's a good idea to also mention the debate's manifestation in the popular science literature, by pointing to Mismeasure of Man and Bell Curve. (This needs some refactoring of the rest of the article.) Gould has a lot more about the early history of this. Arbor 19:46, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The article contains the following text:
Is it supposed to be "that the proportion"? "that the portion"? The rest of the sentence has as its predicate "are particularly important," which sounds like the subject should be some group of individuals. However, the grammatical subject of the sentence as it stands is "proportion." And "this is to explain" is not clear either. Does it mean "this proposal is intended to explain"? P0M 21:26, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have a few tidbits as well, but I'm not really sure about them, so I put them here instead of being bold:
This makes it clearer why this article is not called Race and IQ. (That's not clear from the current introduction.)
(This can be formulated better, shorter, and clearer by a native speaker. The point that is important to me is to pre-empt the common misconception that anybody discounts the importance of environmental factors.)
That all looks good to me. (completely unimportant note: a very few people probably do think it is 100% genetic, a few said so in the 80s survey, but that's a fringe POV we can safely ignore.) -- Rikurzhen 19:01, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
I will try to have an extra look at the article with non-US eyes. (I am European.) FIrst, I am missing here (and in the Race article) a brief introduction to the 4 US ethnic groups. The fact that this classification is routine in the US is not common knowledge, neither are the 4 races. Hispanic, to a European, probably means somebody from Spain. The Race article tells me that the FBI uses that classification, but it was my understanding that it is used everywhere, for example on questionnaires, polls, census data, job and school applications, etc? (I am European, and I am never asked my "race".) Arbor 08:34, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Generally the answer is yes... This could be difficult to present in NPOV because for a U.S. editor many of these ideas are common knowledge (i.e. no specific source comes to mind). ... Race is reported on the Census, on job and school applications, in law enforcement, and for almost anything related to working for the government directly or indirectly. There are laws which require special treatment of minorities in some economic exchanges with the government (e.g., contracts). Also, voluntary affirmative action is practiced by many/most large educational and corporate groups. ... it's difficult for me to figure out what the missing details are from a non-US POV. ... Race is mentioned in the US constitution, including some horrific bits about how slaves should be counted in the census, along with the 14th/15th amendments giving equal rights and protections (and the vote) to all citizens. ... Non-white racial groups are large minorities in the US, 25-30% total off the top of my head. (I already mentioned Tang et al in the bit I wrote about definitions.) Racial tension has existed since before the founding, so I'm sure we someone could re-tell US history entirely from the POV of race relations. ... What else? -- Rikurzhen 16:38, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
the B-W gap not shrinking argument against the Flynn effect applies both to scores within the US and internationally. that's why I tried the less specific formulation. -- Rikurzhen 18:35, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
I haven't read everything in the article, but isn't Shangi (1983)'s finding that of no difference in IQ between white, Indian, African and mixed Trinidadians? Or has this been superceded by more recent work?
Shangi, Lennard M. 1983. Racial stratification, sex, and mental ability: A comparison of five groups in Trinidad. Journal of Black Studies 14(1):69-82 (available through jstor stable link. Guettarda 19:49, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
the results are unusual, but what's more unusual is that there are no papers in the ISI database that have ever cited this paper. zero citations. -- Rikurzhen 20:10, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
Am I missing something? What are "r" and "k"? Are they defined before they appear in the article as "r-selection" and "K-selection"? Why is only the K capitalized? P0M 01:24, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
They need thumbnail definitions. "r" stands for "favoring reproduction potential over other adaptations", and "K" stands for "traits that are highly adaptive in a stable environment." P0M 05:17, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've made some changes. I'm pretty confident that I see what Rushton's claims are, but not so sure that I've formulated it smoothly enough. It's kind of messy to try to change one or two sentences in the middle of a paragraph sometimes.
I'm also going through and looking at outlining and topic sentence issues. Most of it seems clear and smoothly flowing. P0M 06:06, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article in now very long. I think that the section "Culture-only or partially-genetic explanation?" can be moved to an article of its own. Indeed, the article would be improved since that section is the most technical and can easily be summarized in one or two sentences like in the conclusion. The biggest problem would be moving the references. Both articles could be submitted for featured article status at the same time. Ultramarine 19:23, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I strongly object. The article can be improved in style and organization, but it would be a mistake to separate cultural and genetic determinants of intelligence. To do so would be to reproduce a debate over "nature vs. nurture" that all anthropologists (and perhaps psychologists and evolutionary biologists) reject. The proposal is actually ironic, since the very reason "nurture" (or "culture") is important is because we can understand our world symbolically and teach, and learn from, others. And this capacity for learning and symbolic thought — which I take to be key elements in "intelligence," are products of our evolution. In other words, to say that intelligence is the product of our evolution, or the product of our culture, is ultimately to say the same thing. The real issue here is not explaining the cultural vs. biological basis for intelligence, because no one doubts that our intelligence is the product of our evolution which means it must have a "genetic basis." Debates such as "all culture" or "all genetics" are not over whether or not intelligence has a genetic basis, but rather how to explain variation in measures of intelligence among populations. This certainly is a complex topic but it need not be divided into "nature' vs. "culture." Another way to look at it is in terms of different kinds of intelligence — a view a number of psychologists now take. Another issue is debates over the validity of "g." Yes I know many scientists insist on its validity, but many reject it; this is the kind of debate that the article should include as a major component. Finally, I think the source of much of the confusion concerning the genetic versus the cultural determinants of intelligence lies in the word "heritability" which many people — especially psychologists — simply misunderstand or misuse. But a sophisticated explanation of heritability as used by evolutionary scientists (and I mean people who were really trained in evolution, mostly biologists and anthropologists, and not psychologists) would go far to clarifying why it is just too simplistic to reduce the matter to "nature vs. nurture," let alone treat each one separately. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:14, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
One thing I would at the moment agree to is to make a Race and intelligence (References) article to hold the complete bibliography for this and any other articles in this series. We'd still use inline references (Author, Year), but the full bibliography would be in a separate page. ... Before making further changes, someone should make a proposal. -- Rikurzhen 00:36, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
This article was voted on to see if it should be deleted. The consensus was a clear one to KEEP. The results of this debate can be seen at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Race and intelligence. DJ Clayworth 21:40, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If the section is about evolutionary explanation of genetic differences then it has to include at least one mainstream theory on genetic differences between raises rather than just Rushton's loony ideas. But if you want it to be specifically about evolutionary explanations for intelligence differences, then Rushton is the main point. Which will it be? -- Rikurzhen 23:29, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
Hello, this is Jorge Daza, comming from the VfD page. I read Rikurzhen's link that was supposedly a paper, but I found no paper. Just a news article about a research that is not documented anywhere. A Google search on Neil Risch (the author of that research) gives this first hit [ [9]]. In his list of publications there is no mention to that research paper. In his list of Research Interests there is no such a mention about the genetics involved in intelligence, just some neurological disorders. Please, tell me that you're not basing such an important topic on a news article. Somebody, has to correct this. This whole article has no scientific ground at all.
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Why does this table stop at such a low IQ score, I mean someone with an IQ of 140 is hardy a rocket scientist? Unsigned comment by User:172.146.248.166
File:IQ-4races-rotate-highres.png
If you've taken the GRE, or know people who have, this is a good approximation for converting GRE to IQ scores. -- Rikurzhen 07:02, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
Sam Spade 04:59, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Its a picture of different races as defined by the FBI. It serves the purpose of clarifying for the reader what different races are being discussed, and what they look like. The picture of a brain has nothing to do w race, should it be removed? Sam Spade 05:03, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I completely disagree. Sam Spade 05:06, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
The photo represents the races discussed. As with any image on any article, it is representing the subject, in this case race. The picture of the brain represents intellegence. There is no reason not to provide the reader with useful images. Sam Spade 05:12, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
It is very relevant, because the article describes races in the same manner. The concept of "race" is open to a wide range of interpretations. If you read one of the better encyclopedias, you will find it to explain that the very concept of race is objected to as unscientific by many experts of biology and anthropology. Many feel that the only accurate way to define race is blood type and language group. Clearly that sort of definition is not the most commonly used, nor is it the one used in this article. Providing this image clarifies for the reader what classification of races we are using. Sam Spade 05:18, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Do what you like, the reason for keeping them is obvious, and they will be kept. Your suggestion that I havn't read an article that I've been editing since before you created your user account is a bit amusing, i must say. Sam Spade 05:33, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
Obviously I have, scroll up. Or better yet, how about you think about it for awhile? Sam Spade 05:49, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
The image seems unnecessary as (1) its hard to imagine anyone not being famaliar with common racial classifications in the US (but if they are, I've added links) and (2) the physical appearance of various races is (to the best of my knowledge) unrelated to their performance on IQ tests. (Relatively unreliable attempts at black/white admixture analysis by skin color seems to support this claim.) -- Rikurzhen 07:30, May 2, 2005 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I also found both images irrelevant, and am glad they have been removed. -- DAD 15:53, 2 May 2005 (UTC)
The function of the mug shots was simply to reinforce the idea that appearance equates to race equates to otherwise difficult to determine characteristics. It does not contribute to having an objective attitude toward the subject under discussion. P0M 00:09, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
from here: An article does not have to have a picture to be featured; however, even if the subject does not have any obvious images associated with it, a suggested picture which could be used to represent it on the Main Page (it can be an abstract symbol that would be too generic for the article itself) is helpful. -- Rikurzhen 05:48, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
sort of a compromise, for this one i set the min value to .005 and the max value to .995, and extended the range slightly; not sure if its really an improvement on readability --
Rikurzhen 08:31, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
done -- Rikurzhen 09:22, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
done -- Rikurzhen 16:52, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
which is better: -- Rikurzhen 17:07, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
1) the current image has more precise SD values for blacks and whites, but less precise for asians and hispancis
File:IQ-4races-rotate-highres.png
2) the bell curve values with fixed SD (I can re-render at high res)
Interesting. Requires an explanation how societes with an average IQ below 75, like in some African countries or in the US earlier, can exist, since apparently most of the population are too stupid for farming or hunting. Ultramarine 02:58, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
Two things to keep in mind. (1) the manual labor of hunting and farming are easy enough even for the IQ <75 group; and (2) even a population with a low average IQ has many people with the skills needed to run a farm, etc. The lesson I took away from The Bell Curve was the increasing IQ stratification was placing an increasing burdern on low IQ individuals over the century. -- Rikurzhen 04:12, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
The data in the table is about the US only. So it doesn't seem appropriate or necessary to comment extensively on other countries. -- Rikurzhen 21:19, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
I don't get why it wouldn't be better to stick comments about Africa in the "IQ gaps in other nations" section. Or create an "IQ gaps between nations" section just to discuss this area -- with main artcle links to the wealth of nations article. Then also give see also links to the policy section of this article and the practical importance section of IQ. It just seems odd to tack that bit about Africa on to the end of the table, since it isn't a criticism of the data in the table itself, but rather of the IQ scores reported for Africans -- which at the other end of the article. The reason for my concern is that most people won't read this article from top to bottom. Note the question about Jews below. They probably just read the intro and then give up. So we need to be hyper organized and inviting if we want people to read further. -- Rikurzhen 23:50, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
I know it may be a sensitive question, but i would like to get an answer, as objective as possible, for the question: "what is the average iq of the American Jews and standard deviation?" Amirpedia 05:38, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
No clue about SD. The Bell Curve number (see the article) is based on a sample of like 100 people, but they cite some references to say that number isn't unreasonable.
I've never seen those papers. However, IQ and the Wealth of Nations has a really low number for Israel. -- Rikurzhen 06:08, May 13, 2005 (UTC)
Hernstein & Murray report the average IQ of American Jews at 113. IQ and the Wealth of Nations lists an average IQ for Israel of 94. The explanation for this difference is that nearly all American Jews are of Central/Eastern European ancestry (Askenazic Jews), who have extremely high average IQ's. Ashkenazic Jews make up only about 40% of Israel's population; another 40% is comprised of Jews of Middle Eastern ancestry, who tend to have IQ's similiar to Arabs. The remaining 20% of Israel is comprised of Arabs. According to IQ and the Wealth of Nations, Arab states tend to have average IQ's in the 80's, so Israel's average IQ of 94 results from the higher IQ Askenazic Jews balanced out by the lower-IQ Arabs and Middle-Eastern Jews.
I have several problems with this article. I believe that this article is a racist piece of literature posing as an informative encyclopedia article. It is adorned with references to various scholars to legitimize the propaganda and a few weak counter-arguments to help create the illusion of a well-balanced article. One of the most obvious problems with this article is the use of the term "race." Quite frankly, it seems that either the author does not know the difference between race and ethnicity or has never pondered it. His/her ignorance is exhibited when he/she lists "hispanic" as a racial category and then goes on to discuss Asians, whites and blacks. Would the author be surprised to know that this particular category contains whites, Asians, blacks, Native Americans and mixtures thereof? Perhaps he/she could rename the article "Ethnicity and Intelligence." As a member of a group possessing such a high intelligence quota, he/she should be much more detail-oriented, precise and accurate. Additionally, he/she should be careful about referencing books (e.g. The Bell Curve) that are authored by people who do not possess expertise in the field about which they write.
I find the argument untenable that race is not understood well enough by the average reader or that the linked race article is not a sufficent source for background on that topic. The word "Hispanics" should likewise be clear to the average reader. While more precise breakdowns of categories like Hispanic and Asian American would be nice, they are not widely used because of the US census definition of race. We are all well aware of the race/ethnicity dichotomy, but clearly race is the issue here and going to lengths to point out that Hispanics can be of many races does little to add to the article. -- Rikurzhen 07:59, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
...But I don't know how to do that. -- DAD 02:26, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
done -- Rikurzhen 07:59, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
The article has one short paragraph that, as Data might say, "does not compute." -- at least for me:
To pull the main parts of the first sentence out, it seems to say:
C, O, and R found structure. Does that mean "a structure?" Or is the sentence intended to assert that "structure" or "ordered assembly of parts of some kind" exists out there somewhere?
The word "structure," whatever it means, is modified by the prepositional phrase "on psychometric variables". Is that like "on the floor"? or "on his behalf"? Or what?
I would guess, based on my knowledge of social context, that the writer is trying to assert that when one looks at a set of psychometric variables that can be measured for each group, there is some kind of "structure" to those variables. Let me guess. Maybe that means that when one compares IQ scores and scores of some set of measures of frustration then one finds, across groups, that higher IQ scores predict lower measures of frustration. Is that what the author is really trying to say? Or something else? This sentence does not convey any clear meaning to me.
The second sentence can be interpreted several ways. Maybe "factor structure" is intended to be a meaningful assemblage of words. Maybe it is intended to convey the idea of a structure of factors. Or, maybe "structure of cognitive ability" is the right group of words to look at, and maybe it stands in apposition to "factor" (in which case there should be commas fore and aft). Is either of these two things asserted to be nearly identical for the two [races]? Or is neither of my guesses correct?
If some assertions in the article accurately represent authorities in this field they merit critical comment.
In the last couple of decades it has become abundantly clear that most of the language learning that humans do occurs during the first 3 years of life. After that, one is more-or-less on a plateau. Infants are hungry sponges, and what gets absorbed at that point seems to form the foundation for all future learning. It's possible to make further gains, but the older one gets the more early deficiencies tend to get in one's way. Contrary to what the paragraph asserts, the earlier in life one is the more important are cultural effects. P0M 02:02, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
there must be some word that is acceptable to describe the aspects of one's environment that are of a social nature; i thought culture was clear enough of a distinction between the social environment of a 3 year old and that of a 16 year old. what term can be substituted to point out this distinction? -- Rikurzhen 08:02, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
The following passage refers to "r" and "k" without any indication of what they mean. Even if they had been mentioned earlier in the article they would need a word or two each to remind people of what they are.
The second paragraph in a chart that is supposed to pertain to IQ ranges in the US says:
I think that paragraph just doesn't belong where it has been placed, but if it does belong there then the chart would seem to include data on non-US populations in describing the US population. P0M 02:32, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Some of the content in this article question why Chinese and/or other Asian immigrants to the US should test so high if minority status and/or low economic status disadvantages people. This kind of assertion is another point where I have to question whether it is the authors of this article or the authors of the scientific studies being reported who have not informed themselves fully. I don't believe that we can have a good article unless these issues are sorted out properly. Low economic status is indeed a hindrance to gaining a university education or even, sometimes, to making it all the way through high school. But some immigrants come to the US with a culturally acquired value that tells them that education and hard work are the keys to a good life. Chinese people, for instance, may arrive completely destitute and knowing no English, but that does not mean that they are lacking in intelligence, in formal education, or in street smarts. Very frequently people with these values will willingly sacrifice their comfort and risk their health for the sake of the success of their children. P0M 02:49, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't see any contradiction between what's written in the article and the points you've made. -- Rikurzhen 08:05, May 22, 2005 (UTC)
The article has another sentence that leaves me puzzled:
Is the author of this sentence offering the possibility that IQ gaps do not indicate differences in intelligence? Or is s/he just trying to say, "Even if there actually are differences in intelligence..."?
This image [2] shows that whites constantly score higher than asians on SAT tests, perhaps we need a graph overhaul? - Molloy
"In his 1839 Crania Americana, anthropologist Samuel George Morton reported that the mean cranial capacity of the skulls of Whites was 87 in³, while that of Blacks was 78 in³. Based on the measurement of 144 skulls of Native Americans, he reported an a figure of 82in³."
Should we remark that the experiment is only a historical note? The experiment has been harshly revisited for its unscientific sampling (Morton took whatever few skulls he could collect over years). Some call it "fabricated".
lots of issues | leave me a message 08:46, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
And is a bit longwinded. Satellite articles anyone? Tedneeman 00:30, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
The references are what really push the size up. I can't imagine a reasonable split. -- Rikurzhen 00:57, May 29, 2005 (UTC)
"Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence" The Economist NYT pre-print PDF -- Rikurzhen 05:16, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
Here's another newspaper report. If people think this doesn't fit in this article, could it go in Ashkenazi or American Jews? -- Rikurzhen 23:38, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
If someone feels like starting a Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence article, here's a public domain criticism that could be included. -- Rikurzhen 18:33, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
If this theory is true, shall the U.S. end the affirmative action and persecute the Blacks? I mean the U.S. government can ban Blacks from becoming singers and basketball players and limit their choice of jobs to be lawyers and medical doctors only. If you're Black and you can't finish high school before 18, you're dead. If you're Black and you fail to become the next Johnnie Cochran before 25, you're dead. If you're Black and people don't vote you to be the next President of the United States, you're dead.
I guess the Black population will almost extinct in 10 years. But the remaining Blacks will be Übermensch.
Will the affirmative action cause the Blacks to be less and less intelligent in the long run, if this story is of any reference value? On the other hand, will Whites and Asians in the U.S., being discriminated by the policy, become more and more intelligent in the future?
Jews were being persecuted in the past. However, they were forced to take brainy jobs. In contrast, Blacks were just slaves in the U.S. That's the difference. I don't think being forced to work in a cotton field is the job that takes the biggest brain to perform. So are today's burger-flipper jobs.
China has a long history of civilization (a.k.a. examinations, since the Tang Dynasty 1,400 years ago). Before Tang Dynasty, people were also study hard. In a typical Chinese society, the tiered society is constantly changing at a slow but steady pace:
I think that was the selective pressure. The exam had been thesis writing for the past 1,300 years. I guess that also elevated the average score of verbal tests to the Chinese. I mean vergal tests! -- My true identity: The Depth-Challenged Throat 19:11, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
So far as I know, race and intelligence is mostly a U.S. issue. Theories are developed to explain or do away the clearly visible gap between Black and White. Most other countries have minorities, but the internal racial conflicts are usually not as bad as that of the U.S (I mean the undertow). In some countries, peoples are equally poor economically; in many others, races co-existed over the past thousands of years however they hated each other. I think we need to make this more explicit. -- My true identity: The Depth-Challenged Throat 17:45, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
To the extent that the U.S. is a very racially diverse society, and to the extent that the most solid research has been performed in the U.S., it is a U.S. issue. But it could also be described as a global issue, for example IQ and the Wealth of Nations. -- Rikurzhen 20:22, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
The claim about low average IQ societies being impossible seems to be based on a confusion of the many degress and causes of mental retardation. It should be backed off to a more moderate claim or the blame for that misunderstanding should be placed on a particular paper. -- Rikurzhen 16:44, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
In a population with IQ mean=70 SD=15 (probably over-estimate), only 9% of the population will have IQ<50, only 15% will have IQ<55. The division between mild and moderate mental retardation is 50-55. The division between moderate and severe is IQ 30-35, which is less than 1% of such a population. REF -- Rikurzhen 17:56, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
Mercury poisoning and lower IQ are the only connections I could find with Google. -- Rikurzhen 17:18, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
Ahh. That's interesting. -- Rikurzhen 17:51, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
I'm inclined to submit this article for "peer review" so that it can go up for featured article status. I had thought that by not fussing with such things it would avoid the kind of taboo-response we've seen with the VfD, but the many positive comments in the VfD thread has changed my mind. Any reason not to? -- Rikurzhen 20:06, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
I put it up. we'll see if there's any good feedback. -- Rikurzhen 07:07, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)
are studies of differential academic achievement worth including? for example, two recent books: -- Rikurzhen 04:42, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
three studies from the 2005 PPPL paper: -- Rikurzhen 23:45, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)
What are you referring to? The metanalysis published by APA show nothing like this [5]. Ultramarine 00:14, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I got copies of the papers. Skimming them, the descriptions by Rushton and Jensen are correct. I took note of the malnutrition, which was the topic we were most uncertain about. In Clark (1982), 14 of the 25 kids had been hospitalized for malnutrition. Also, Clark summarizes Winick (1975) similarly to Rushton. It looks like the authors of the review paper didn't read these papers very carefully. -- Rikurzhen 04:31, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
On reflection most of this adoption data is pretty much crap. Without behavior genetic controls, it's just a guess about what is really going on here with respect to genetic/environment. Unforutunately, adoption is also a more direct experiment, so we're beholden to report it. -- Rikurzhen 07:04, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
Doesn't the existence of an "Asian" group actually undermine the whole genetic argument? As used in the US, "Asian" includes not only Chinese, Japanese and Koreans (who have more shared genes with one another than they do with Europeans) but also Indians, who have a stronger shared genetic heritage with Europeans? Or am I missing something? Guettarda 13:31, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
also... The genetic structure of Indian populations are complex. ref -- Rikurzhen 21:34, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)
The indegenous Malays in Malyasia are not classified as "South Asian". See South Asia. Malaysia is in South-East Asia. -- Ankmin 06:10, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think the main problem with this article, and intelligence quotient, is that they assume intelligence as defined by IQ is a fundamental thing. It is not; it is merely a definition. Perhaps this article should be renamed "Race and IQ". Sure, when intelligence is defined by IQ, which is based on Western ideals of intelligence and knowledge, there will be differences between races. But this has nothing to do with raw brainpower, which is generally what people assume is meant by intelligence. It is quite probable that "raw brainpower" is unmeasurable by any pen-and-paper test.
Because of this misconception (IQ = intelligence), the article implies some races have fundamentally less mental ability. What it really shows is that some races are better at IQ tests / better at achieving in Western-style education systems etc... ··gracefool | ☺ 22:39, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I believe gracefool's point is valid. Intelligence is a classic instance of the "black box." We don't know what is in the black box. We feed it inputs and receive its outputs. If we feed it a series of problems that have right and wrong answers, then we can measure the rate at which the black box returns correct correct answers and call that intelligence. But we don't know whether there is a single main-frame computer inside the box, or a bunch of special-purposes computers that work in parallel and may be of different levels of excellence. Whether there is a single factor called "g" depends on which picture of the brain is correct. Maybe "g" is just an average of the scores of multiple capabilities. But in that case, who has a higher "g" will very often depend on how we scale our grades of these capabilities.
Rather than implying that there is necessarily a real "intelligence" that we are measuring, it would be much less problematical to be up-front about what we are doing. One related idea: most if not all animals test better on "intelligence" tests when they are actively interested in solving the problem entirely for their own reasons. P0M 02:07, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Back to the original question at the top of this section for a moment, I don't particularly like "IQ" either. How about "Race and the Measure of Intelligence," and then in the immediately following text highlight the idea that measuring something(s) in a black box is an uncertain business at best.
The issues Rikurzhen has just reiterated regarding the pop view of race and the various attempts to make meaningful categories of humans by considering genetically related "families" is a major stumbling block or maybe I should call it a tar baby. But maybe it is also a good opportunity to educate the general reader about just how iffy both [race] and [intelligence] are. BTW I just thought of a couple of examples of presumed measures of intelligence that may be appropriate for discussion. I started learning Chinese in 1960, when I was 20 years old. I lived in Taiwan for 7 years. But learning that language has never been easy, nor have all those years of study led me to the level where I might do well on the Chinese equivalent of a GRE. I think that there are two reasons involved. One is that humans seem to learn languages better the earlier they start. Something appears to solidify in the brain at around the beginning of adolescence, and after that time language acquisition is a definite "add-on" kind of thing -- something that is added on to one's native language. But the other thing is that as an infant, living 24 hours/day with well educated and intelligent parents, one is exposed to things that demand to have a name, e.g., "pinwheel." Those names stick, even though they will probably never come up on an intelligence test. By the time an infant is 3 s/he already has a very large proportion of his/her language ability. "Wolf children" recovered from the wild after around the age 11 never learn enough of any language to be useful. So I think that, e.g., for a Japanese student to start learning English at ae 12 and then be able to pass an American college entrance exam in English in the 99th percentile would indicate a much higher "g" than the same exam result produced by a native speaker of English.
Put it another way, I am constitutionally retarded when it comes to learning Chinese, and I think that the same experimental finding would be made by testing the IQ of any adult who learned Navaho tracking skills at age 20 after having grown up in the caves of steel somewhere. To learn that skill successfully seems to depend on the mind being a very active sponge capable of sopping up all kinds of minutiae actually spending ten or more years doing little else. It also seems that learning the game that the Japanese call "go" has a cut-off point. It seems that almost anybody can learn the rules of play, but that nobody has ever become a go master who started after about the age of ten.
Let's be sure that we pay adequate attention to the politics of "race and intelligence" too. What needs are said to be served by these measurements? To what use are these measurements actually put? Are people using calculations of "low IQ" to freeze people out of educational opportunities? (Don't budget more money for primary schools on the west side. They're too dull to benefit from it.) Or are people using calculations of "low IQ" to indicate prior training that hasn't brought these individuals up to the levels at which they are capable of functioning? Are there tests that have been designed as dual measures of intelligence and competency?
I'll give you an example of what I mean by the difference between underlying intelligence and competency. I encountered one 15 year old student in a disciplinary school who did not even know his multiplication tables. Obviously he was a total dud in math class. But I used the analogy of somebody laying foot-square tiles on the floor of a new kitchen to teach him the idea of area, then got him to see that you could cut and swap a parallelogram so that it became the familiar rectangle whose area you already knew how to calculate. As quickly as I drew the shapes for triangles and other such figures he could give me the formula for computing their areas.
To me. the general reader needs to be educated more about the difficulties and ambiguities and public policy consequences of the research than about any assertions that have been made about the intelligence of various races. P0M 14:46, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Regarding recent changes ... Why we can't replace intelligence with IQ in the intro ... Psychologists no longer treat the mind as if it were a black box and behaviorism is no longer mainstream. Many suggest there is more to intelligence than IQ, but no one has shown they can measure any other aspect of intelligence that isn't mostly IQ/g. Also, the article dedicates considerable space to brain measurements and reaction time tests, which are not IQ tests, although they are correlated with IQ. Changing intelligence to IQ would enforce a minority POV of this topic. -- Rikurzhen 10:07, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
I'm with Rikurzhen on the title and general usage. "IQ" is inaccurate, "intelligence" is simple, and the controversy is acknowledged. Titles convey general content, rarely nuance, and the present one does the duty well. -- DAD 05:57, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Suggestion from peer review ... which is better? (in form, not presentation) suggestions for improvement? -- Rikurzhen 07:33, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
Graphs hidden -- Rikurzhen 22:15, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)
I am really fond of Rikurzhen's last version (with 'simplified' and 'filled' bell curves). As I already mentioned on the Peer Review page, it does a number of important things: (1) it's easy to understand for the nonspecialist. If you've ever seen a bell curve, or just a frequency bar chart, then you know what it means. (2) It makes it clear that the main variance is within groups. (3) It puts the focus on means. To the casual reader, the cumulative distributions shows that "all blacks are dumber than whites", because the black curve is always below the white one. Rest assured that I understand that this is not so, but that's not important. We are already targeting a fraction of the population when we show a bell curve, but that fraction becomes even smaller when we start off the article with a cumulative distribution.
Remember that we are only talking about how to present this information in the introduction, as an eye-catcher that hopefully tells a large part of the story. The new image does this. The old one didn't. I completely understand the merits of the old one with respect to accuracy and information content. From that point of view it's much better, and maybe we want to keep both. Actually, maybe that is worth thinking about -- we can keep the old graph with all the numbers and mention Wechsler and statisticscruft and psychometric technobabble, just like it is now. But move it down. In the introduction, we have an attractive, dumbed-down version of the same information. (Looks like a million bucks, by the way. Good job.) Arbor 19:39, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Question: Shouldn't we include Ashkenazi Jews in the distribution graph? Right now the graph is misleading people into thinking that Asians are the most intelligent ethnic group, when in fact the Ashkenazim really are. Dd2 22:25, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The article is much improved by having the PDF graph in the intro, not the CDF graph. As other editors have stated, it makes clear to the first-time viewer that the main variation is within-group, not between-groups, and avoids the illusion that "all group X are smarter than group Y". -- Karada 13:43, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Nice to see a history section added. Maybe it's a good idea to also mention the debate's manifestation in the popular science literature, by pointing to Mismeasure of Man and Bell Curve. (This needs some refactoring of the rest of the article.) Gould has a lot more about the early history of this. Arbor 19:46, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The article contains the following text:
Is it supposed to be "that the proportion"? "that the portion"? The rest of the sentence has as its predicate "are particularly important," which sounds like the subject should be some group of individuals. However, the grammatical subject of the sentence as it stands is "proportion." And "this is to explain" is not clear either. Does it mean "this proposal is intended to explain"? P0M 21:26, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have a few tidbits as well, but I'm not really sure about them, so I put them here instead of being bold:
This makes it clearer why this article is not called Race and IQ. (That's not clear from the current introduction.)
(This can be formulated better, shorter, and clearer by a native speaker. The point that is important to me is to pre-empt the common misconception that anybody discounts the importance of environmental factors.)
That all looks good to me. (completely unimportant note: a very few people probably do think it is 100% genetic, a few said so in the 80s survey, but that's a fringe POV we can safely ignore.) -- Rikurzhen 19:01, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
I will try to have an extra look at the article with non-US eyes. (I am European.) FIrst, I am missing here (and in the Race article) a brief introduction to the 4 US ethnic groups. The fact that this classification is routine in the US is not common knowledge, neither are the 4 races. Hispanic, to a European, probably means somebody from Spain. The Race article tells me that the FBI uses that classification, but it was my understanding that it is used everywhere, for example on questionnaires, polls, census data, job and school applications, etc? (I am European, and I am never asked my "race".) Arbor 08:34, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Generally the answer is yes... This could be difficult to present in NPOV because for a U.S. editor many of these ideas are common knowledge (i.e. no specific source comes to mind). ... Race is reported on the Census, on job and school applications, in law enforcement, and for almost anything related to working for the government directly or indirectly. There are laws which require special treatment of minorities in some economic exchanges with the government (e.g., contracts). Also, voluntary affirmative action is practiced by many/most large educational and corporate groups. ... it's difficult for me to figure out what the missing details are from a non-US POV. ... Race is mentioned in the US constitution, including some horrific bits about how slaves should be counted in the census, along with the 14th/15th amendments giving equal rights and protections (and the vote) to all citizens. ... Non-white racial groups are large minorities in the US, 25-30% total off the top of my head. (I already mentioned Tang et al in the bit I wrote about definitions.) Racial tension has existed since before the founding, so I'm sure we someone could re-tell US history entirely from the POV of race relations. ... What else? -- Rikurzhen 16:38, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
the B-W gap not shrinking argument against the Flynn effect applies both to scores within the US and internationally. that's why I tried the less specific formulation. -- Rikurzhen 18:35, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
I haven't read everything in the article, but isn't Shangi (1983)'s finding that of no difference in IQ between white, Indian, African and mixed Trinidadians? Or has this been superceded by more recent work?
Shangi, Lennard M. 1983. Racial stratification, sex, and mental ability: A comparison of five groups in Trinidad. Journal of Black Studies 14(1):69-82 (available through jstor stable link. Guettarda 19:49, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
the results are unusual, but what's more unusual is that there are no papers in the ISI database that have ever cited this paper. zero citations. -- Rikurzhen 20:10, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
Am I missing something? What are "r" and "k"? Are they defined before they appear in the article as "r-selection" and "K-selection"? Why is only the K capitalized? P0M 01:24, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
They need thumbnail definitions. "r" stands for "favoring reproduction potential over other adaptations", and "K" stands for "traits that are highly adaptive in a stable environment." P0M 05:17, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I've made some changes. I'm pretty confident that I see what Rushton's claims are, but not so sure that I've formulated it smoothly enough. It's kind of messy to try to change one or two sentences in the middle of a paragraph sometimes.
I'm also going through and looking at outlining and topic sentence issues. Most of it seems clear and smoothly flowing. P0M 06:06, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
This article in now very long. I think that the section "Culture-only or partially-genetic explanation?" can be moved to an article of its own. Indeed, the article would be improved since that section is the most technical and can easily be summarized in one or two sentences like in the conclusion. The biggest problem would be moving the references. Both articles could be submitted for featured article status at the same time. Ultramarine 19:23, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I strongly object. The article can be improved in style and organization, but it would be a mistake to separate cultural and genetic determinants of intelligence. To do so would be to reproduce a debate over "nature vs. nurture" that all anthropologists (and perhaps psychologists and evolutionary biologists) reject. The proposal is actually ironic, since the very reason "nurture" (or "culture") is important is because we can understand our world symbolically and teach, and learn from, others. And this capacity for learning and symbolic thought — which I take to be key elements in "intelligence," are products of our evolution. In other words, to say that intelligence is the product of our evolution, or the product of our culture, is ultimately to say the same thing. The real issue here is not explaining the cultural vs. biological basis for intelligence, because no one doubts that our intelligence is the product of our evolution which means it must have a "genetic basis." Debates such as "all culture" or "all genetics" are not over whether or not intelligence has a genetic basis, but rather how to explain variation in measures of intelligence among populations. This certainly is a complex topic but it need not be divided into "nature' vs. "culture." Another way to look at it is in terms of different kinds of intelligence — a view a number of psychologists now take. Another issue is debates over the validity of "g." Yes I know many scientists insist on its validity, but many reject it; this is the kind of debate that the article should include as a major component. Finally, I think the source of much of the confusion concerning the genetic versus the cultural determinants of intelligence lies in the word "heritability" which many people — especially psychologists — simply misunderstand or misuse. But a sophisticated explanation of heritability as used by evolutionary scientists (and I mean people who were really trained in evolution, mostly biologists and anthropologists, and not psychologists) would go far to clarifying why it is just too simplistic to reduce the matter to "nature vs. nurture," let alone treat each one separately. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:14, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
One thing I would at the moment agree to is to make a Race and intelligence (References) article to hold the complete bibliography for this and any other articles in this series. We'd still use inline references (Author, Year), but the full bibliography would be in a separate page. ... Before making further changes, someone should make a proposal. -- Rikurzhen 00:36, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
This article was voted on to see if it should be deleted. The consensus was a clear one to KEEP. The results of this debate can be seen at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Race and intelligence. DJ Clayworth 21:40, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If the section is about evolutionary explanation of genetic differences then it has to include at least one mainstream theory on genetic differences between raises rather than just Rushton's loony ideas. But if you want it to be specifically about evolutionary explanations for intelligence differences, then Rushton is the main point. Which will it be? -- Rikurzhen 23:29, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
Hello, this is Jorge Daza, comming from the VfD page. I read Rikurzhen's link that was supposedly a paper, but I found no paper. Just a news article about a research that is not documented anywhere. A Google search on Neil Risch (the author of that research) gives this first hit [ [9]]. In his list of publications there is no mention to that research paper. In his list of Research Interests there is no such a mention about the genetics involved in intelligence, just some neurological disorders. Please, tell me that you're not basing such an important topic on a news article. Somebody, has to correct this. This whole article has no scientific ground at all.