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I haven't read the entire article -- not nearly. In fact, I've barely skimmed it. However, it seems clear that certain long-held misperceptions regarding who belongs to what "race" persist. The U.S. practice of characterizing indio-Latinos as "white" is absurd. They are as Asian as Native Americans; they simply were subjugated/colonized by white folks who spoke Spanish and Portuguese, rather than English. What sense does THAT make?
And the notion of classifying East Indians, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis as "Caucasian" is equally absurd. They're as black as Australian aborigines and New Guineans -- some in the south of India and in Bangladesh even with blue-black skin and nappy/frizzy hair. This ridiculous notion is more emblematic of the racism of European pseudo-scientists who refused to admit that anyone other than Caucasians was capable of buiding a high civilization. This is the same thinking that produced the schools of thought that some wandering white tribe built Timbuktu, and that the earliest dynastic Egyptians were anything and everything other than blue-black Africans with nappy hair. They want us to continue to believe the lie that Nubians were little more than slaves of white (or nearly white) Egyptian pharaohs. It's time to join the twenty-first century, people! If you didn't know any of this before, didn't ANYONE see the Spencer Wells documentary on the "Journey of Man" that aired on PBS earlier this year (or last?) in which, using DNA evidence, he traced the earliest out-migration of the San bushmen to India and Australia -- and then to points beyond? http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/photogalleries/journey_of_man/photo8.html deeceevoice 19:10, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Maybe YOU should check your facts - your link led to info about Spencer Wells saying that he found that ALL people migrated out from Africa ~40,000 years ago, instead of 100K - Europeans AND Indians AND Chinese.
As to the idea that Indians are NOT "Caucasians" - it only goes the show the weakness of the whole idea of race. There is no major discontinuity of language family or of "racial" characteristics from Hyderabad to Dublin. The only reason NOT to call Indians (and Iranians, and Greeks) 'Caucasian' is that they don't fit the "Nordic" ideal that Aryan suspremacists go for. Sure, there is significant admixture of other genes, and a sudden change is language family as you move into southern India - but again, no sudden discontinuity in the people. The tribals in India definitely represent some different lineage - which I would say is probably related to the Australians, but that doesn't have to be closely related. Ironically, the people of the Caucasus (the only real Caucasians) are called 'black' by the Russians.
As for Egyptians - I can only speak from illustrations I have seen, but they drew themselves as lighter skinned than 'Nubians', but darker skinned than Semites. 'Blue-black' Africans would strike me as rather out of place in Nile valley, since most of the really dark skinned people are further to the south and west. What evidence is there that they were blacker than say, Ethiopians or Sudanese?
Sure, the Euro-centric ideas of the Victorians were in no way connected with reality, but the Afro-centric revisionism of history is sometimes no less chauvinistic...Africa populated the world, yes, but the descendents of those Africans include ALL humans. IF people choose to classify according to race, and they use the old Caucasoid/Mongoloid/Negroid/Australoid classes, there is no logical reason to put Indians anywhere other than Caucasoid. Sure, Indian tribals, like the 'Negritos' of the Philipines, disappear in that classification system. But to place someone outside of the 'white' race because they have one drop of non-white blood is ridiculous. I am half Indian and half European. I consider myself non-white. But I would get laughed at if I tried to place myself in any of those categories EXCEPT 'Caucasoid'. As for my Indian-Chinese-European-African-Amerindian cousins, the idea of having to 'choose one" (like many American surveys of race ask) is ridiculous. I know my Indian-African-European-Amerindian brother-in-law would be deeply insulted by having to choose a race - even a broad category. Guettarda 22:58, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC) ---
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Caucasian is a bone structure and shape. It has nothing to do with skin, hair and eye coloring. Just like a green apple is still an apple even though it is not red in color, it is shaped like an apple and has apple DNA, therefore it is still an apple even though it is not red. A green bananna and a green apple are the same color, but NOT the same Race. Because the shape/features are different and of course the DNA is completely different too. Caucasians are basically all Indo-Europeans from India to England. Of course their coloring, body-type is different. Race and color are two different things. Now as for the Negro parts of Asia, there's a negro element in India's natives, more the Ethiopian-type. But this can be proven by the flat noses and big lips, more of an East Asian + Negro mix. But the upper-castes of India are of Iranian, Turk and Greek blood. So they're tall, strong, and look "White", even if they're darker, they do have the Anglo-Saxon features and body type, just darker skin, hair and eyes. Many are rather fair and even white-skinned too. But the Caucasian continuum basically is evident from much of India to England: The noses are straight, the faces are oval, the height is medium to tall to some very tall (over 6'3") Caucasoid-types. Just the coloring varies, even super-dark skinned India people, seem to have no Oriental and Negro features, all Caucasian features. But if the features were different there are also many negroid types, then sure they're not Caucasian. But all civilization was built first by the non-Caucasians, the point made about how Westerners (even though they got their science and math from non-Caucasoids from the ancient times), thought no one but Caucasoids were able to build anything, is completely absurd. It's not so much Races, but skilled engineers and scientists accomplishments throughout all Races, that the Westerners (who are merchants not really scientists/engineers) have compiled and gathered into their own made-up "white system" to serve their own Western Elite self-interest. I'm a Mechanical Engineer, if it weren't for all the Races on Earth's discoveries and findings throughout time and history, no one would have anything today. It was all of the Races of the Earth who got together at one time and compiled the fundamentals in nature, science, mathematics and reasoning for making theories which might be proven into facts/constants. But in terms of Race, it's the features more than anything.
§ Not only are we back to debating the existence of [race], but we are presented with an article that makes [race] a photographable reality and breaks humans into black and white divisions.
P0M 02:09, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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I happened across this article only a couple of days before it was featured on Wikipedia and made a note to myself to come back to it later. It needed lots of work. I don't know if the change was made before it was featured, but I happened to notice the use of "morphological" to describe physical differences among the "races." Well, that stuck out like a sore thumb. I scanned the page briefly (in a matter of seconds) to see if it was still there, but didn't see it. But if it hasn't been corrected, someone ought to. There ARE no " morphological" differences in humankind; there are phenotypical (contrasted with genotypical) ones. deeceevoice 07:23, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I'm still playing hooky from various deadlines -- but not for long. Another tidbit from the Internet regarding black Indians and the Buddha, who was also -- yes -- black. One must note the comment below that Indians came from Ethiopia. This is doubtful, especially given Wells' research. Certainly, the earliest Indians did not originate in Ethiopia, proper. However, it is possible that subsequent migrations from other regions of the African continent occurred. Surely, there are those of us who've seen statues of the Buddha with stylistically coiled, nappy hair! Didja ever at least WONDER? :-p
If you'd like to see the photograph of the Buddha offered in the document above, visit: http://black-international-cinema.com/
deeceevoice 07:53, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC) ---
I keep thinking of other things to add. (Besides, work this a.m. is boring!) Check out this link from the Discovery program on Nefertiti. See what modern-day forensic scientists have come up with as the face of Nefertiti: http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/nefertiti/face/face.html
And here's another interactive photo -- of a Discovery Channel forensic reconstruction of the face of King Tutankhamun:
http://dsc.discovery.com/anthology/unsolvedhistory/kingtut/face/facespin.html
Booyah! :-p deeceevoice 09:00, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC) ---
More black Buddhas. Japan: This is the (or one of the) oldest Buddhas in Japan. Its features have been changed to reflect those of Buddhism's Asian adherents -- but note the tightly coiled, curly/nappy hair:
Here's an interesting "Buddha" photo montage -- some clearly Buddhas, others not so clear:
There are other ancient Buddhist shrines in Japan and elsewhere -- also with nappy hair, some with even more African-looking features -- fuller lips, faces quite wide across the cheekbones. Here's another example of another happy, nappy Buddha.
(If you're denied direct access to any of the above links, simply cut and paste them into your web browser.)
Kinky hair is not a widely recognized trait of the Japanese, or of other Asians (or any ethnic/"racial" group other than "Negroes." Nor is there any record of there ever having been a tradition of curling one's hair into tight coils in Japanese culture. These Buddhas hadn't been to the beauty salon and nail parlor for the latest 'do. So, where did the kinky hair come from? Hm-m-mmm? :-p Pop-quiz-think-fast: The oldest Buddhist artifacts ever found were excavated in what part of India? Answer: Tamil -- where Wells found his modern-day descendent of the San bushmen through DNA testing. This is consonant with recent findings that Gautama Buddha likely was born (contrary to conventional wisdom, which has him being born in Nepal) in Kapileshwar, Orissa, in India -- up the coast from Tamil Province. Buddha was a black/African/"Negroid" East Indian. deeceevoice 10:59, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC) Pre Persian-incursion India was heavily black African, with the darkest and curliest/nappiest of them residing -- as they do, still, today -- in the south, where many Tamils have mahogany (and some even blue-black) skin. Internalized white supremacist notions of white superiority and black inferiority were institutionalized and codified in the caste system of India, which still exists. Among African-Americans, there's a term for someone who suffers from internalized racism, resulting in a distinct preference/longing for lighter skin. It's called being "color-struck." :-p deeceevoice 11:15, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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A little something more from the Internet (doncha just love cyberspace? :-p) about Indian history, verbatim from "Chapter 6 - RAVANA: A NON VIOLENT "GANA-NAYAKA", (CHIEF OF REPUBLICS) CONTEMPORARY WITH THE BUDDHA." (link is provided at the end):
Later, under a subheading:
[Note: If you'd like to know what "black collyrium" looks like, it's the same as kohl, used by Eygptians to line the eyes. For a photo of black collyrium (also referred to as "jet-black collyrium," visit: http://www.webindia123.com/dances/Kathakali/make_up.htm . It is the very blackest pigment around the eyes of the individuals in the photographs.] deeceevoice
These excerpts are from an account of Indian history on the Dalit e-Forum website. For those interested in readnig further, visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Race&action=edit§ion=28
Okay. I'm done with the documentation of blacks/Africans in India. The excerpts here should give you a glimpse into the violence with which the Persian/Asian/black miscegenated folks of northern India sought to obliterate the black presence in southern India. Fortunately, clear evidence of a powerful, indigenous, pervasive African presence in India remains (though attenuated the further north one travels): in ancient texts, scholarship untainted by white supremacist lies or presumptions, in artifacts and art, in the faces of the Tamil people themselves (and, to a lesser degree, their lighter Hindu "cousins" to the north) -- and in the hearts and minds of a generation of Indians who have begun to seek the truth of their own collective history and culture. deeceevoice 15:59, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
--- @ Wareware: "Afrocentric"? What? As opposed to "Eurocentric"? How about simply "factual"? The photos weren't doctored. And Wells' DNA evidence is irrefutable.
@POM: And, no. There's nothing new about any of this. Always intensely interested in history, I remember asking my 4th grade social studies teacher, "Weren't the ancient Egyptians 'Negroes'?" (the fashionable term then, in the late '50s) -- to which the (white) teacher responded with the conventional wisdom of the time in much the way Guettarda has responded herein. Some nonsense like, "No. That's just the pigment they used in their paintings." (I didn't believe him.) Then two years later, the Aswan dam was brought online, flooding the treasures of ancient Nubia -- and Jr. Scholastic showed pages of full-color photos of towering statues of the obviously black pharoahs at Abu-Simbel. "Mr. Hudson" (who was a racist son-of-a-gun, anyway)must've had a rude awakening. lol I learned about the Africa-India connection about 35 years ago, when I realized some Ceylonese (Sri Lankan/Lanka) schoolmates looked just like "American Negroes." I'm just bringing these things up for the countless many who still believe the Eurocentric historiography, the centuries of lies -- which, despite true scholarship that has been well known in some circles even outside academia for at least a century or more, remain pervasive and persistent. Depictions of not just light-skinned, but white-skinned Egyptians with European features remain the norm on all sorts of TV "documentaries" and cinematic releases, and the only black folks you see are slaves. And, yes, East Indians are still classified as "Caucasian" in defiance of the true -- and clear -- historical record. Certainly, the population of India taken as a whole is more African/black/"Negroid" than Mongoloid and far more black African than Caucasoid. I bring these things up because, IMO, putting "racial" classifications in the context of true human history helps show how absurd they are, how self-serving vis-a-vis "scholars" who were so confident in their ass-umptions about the inherent inferiority of "Negroes," for them there was no way possible the high civilizations of ancient Egypt and India could have been wrought by black hearts, minds and hands. And then, of course, there were many who knew/understood, but just flat-out lied, anyway. And, yes, most of us are, indeed, just "bleached-out Africans." The only ones of us who aren't are dark-skinned Africans!" :-D (By the way, how do I respond to your note, when there's no direct link to your "talk" page on your user page? I'm still a relative newbie and have been too busy/impatient to read the how-to manual.) deeceevoice 08:01, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
And all of this brings me back to my original point (in "Ridiculously False Assumptions") -- that "racial" classification is far more political and economic than scientific. The motivation for white-washing history to make Egyptians non-African, taking Egypt out of Africa and placing it in some middle-Earth, "Middle East" context, and of designating East Indians Caucasoids was strictly about preserving the lies of white supremacy and its corollary, anti-black racism -- the deeply entrenched dogma (shored up by centuries of lies and obfuscation and endless pseudo "scholarship" -- historiography and pseudo-science) of the inherent inferiority of blacks/"Negroes" relative to other "racial" groups. deeceevoice 21:30, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Re: Ware's comment that putting East Indians into the Caucasian category is somehow "liberals' attempt to erase the notion of race...." East Indians have been categorized as "Caucasians" for a very, very long time -- long before egalitarianism was the fashion. In fact, quite the contrary. The appropriation of ancient black, undeniably advanced civilizations and whitewashing them had a sinister motive -- as I stated, the perpetuation of the myth of white supremacy. Because it was impossible with India to nearly completely whitewash its inhabitants (as many historians have, unfortunately, fairly successfully have been able to do with ancient Egypt), it was sufficient to focus on the largely assimilated Hindu culture (African, Persian and Asian) and claim that India's inhabitants were somehow "Caucasoid" -- a wholly ridiculous assertion. But because East Indians by and large have for centuries wholeheartedly adopted a throughly racist, highly color-conscious approach to the darker elements in their own nation (Gandhi himself had no problem with the caste system), happily accepting the "Caucasian" designation, this fallacy largely has gone unquestioned until fairly recently. British historian and scholar Basil Davidson had it right. Such tortured, distorted "racial" designations strictly were about shoring up notions of white supremacy. I am reminded of the defense's arguments in the Rodney King incident: "Are you going to believe what you see (on videotape), or are you going to believe us?" Unfortunately, Simi Valley style, the common "wisdom" is crap. deeceevoice 09:45, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I very much appreciate the new addition, Race in biomedicine, but reading it my hackles rise at one point, and that is the unqualified use of the word "race." There must be a better way to write about [race] than to use the word as though it has a real referent. If the New York Times had an article on its front page saying that Senator Joseph Biden had introduced a bill for the imposition of landing fees on flying saucers, it would definitely get some bemused attention because it would strongly imply that both the NYT and Senator Biden believed in the existence of flying saucers. If Senator Biden was actually talking about something that didn't exist but was thought to exist because of the real existence of the planet Venus, the real existence of weather balloons, etc., etc., and he was actually introducing a bill to arrange for payments of fees for services involved in collecting downed weather balloons and the like, then the NYT would had done better to be more careful of its language. P0M
Having an article on [race] and heading it up with pictures of members of "U.S. Government Inspected" [racial] categories is horrendously inappropriate. P0M
As one recent contributor has pointed out, labeling the third group as "white (Hispanic)" is particularly inappropriate. There is no way of our knowing what the real genetic heritage of either of the individuals pictured in that category may be, but surely their parents were not Ola and Bessie from Olso. The group for which they stand as representatives does not have even a majority of its ancestry coming from Spain, nor does it have a majority of its ancestry from Spain and Germany, nor even does it have a majority of its ancestry from anywhere in Europe. O.k., perhaps I am wrong. I don't have the genetic information of that group sitting on my bookshelf. But should we perpetuate as "fact" the rule-of-thumb category whomped up by the FBI? (What are we going to call people from S. America who predominantly speak Spanish or Portugese, and who don't look much like people with a genetic heritage from Europe? Well, since there is a presumption of there being some of the conquorer's genetic heritage in most of them, and since most of them can operate in Spanish or Portugese, we'll call them "white and Hispanic") I don't think so. If we are going to call them "white (Hispanic)" -- by implication, literally, by folding in the FBI characterization -- we should have statistical proof based on genetic studies. Good luck on getting such proof, and I mean that sarcastically. P0M
What would seem fair to me is a map tesselated by faces of representative inhabitants of those places. That way we could say, "Look, this is really what is out there. People draw lines here, here, here, and here. The people on the left side of that line are called 'white,' and the people on the right side of that line are called 'black,' and then... And if you pulled the lady next to the left side of that line over next to to the right side of that line, nobody could tell the difference." P0M 09:48, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC) ---
Although I agree with much of what both of you write, I think you miss the point about the photos currently on the article page. They do not illustrate biologically real races, they illustrate how the US government constructs classifications of people. If I recall correctly, whoever originally posted the photos had the Latinos identified as "Hispanic Mestizo." One problem is, "Hispanic" (or "Latino") is not a race -- it refers to a geographic and linguistic group (indeed, that the US census asks people to identify themselves as White, Black, Hispanic, etc. just shows how confused our society's notions of classification are, since the categories are not analytically equivalent but rather mix up "race" with country of origin/home language. Second, I checked the source of the photos (I think the FBI) and saw that these people were identified as White. To repeat: the point is not that the captions are wrong and should be changed, the point is that the captions illustrate how the US government constructs such identities in a way that so obviously shows how constructed they are. I agree completely that we should use other photos -- if you look at my contributions in the original discussion on the mug-shots (above) I think I made my own view very clear. I was the one who most recently restored these photos to the article, but only because I object even more strongly to the computer-generated photos. I think we need two different kinds of photos -- some photos that illustrate not races, but populations (e.g., photos of Africans who belong to different populations and look different; photos of Europeans who belong to different populations and look different, etc.) and photos that illustrate how people in different societies construct "race" differently (e.g., Blacks and Whites from Haiti vs. the Dominical Republic). Slrubenstein
I believe that the article has extensive critique of the concept of race, although I certainly wouldn't object to more. And I agree that if the article uses these photos, it needs to provide a specific account of how these specific racial categories were constructed. But as I said, I would rather there be different photos. Slrubenstein
§ Sam Spade has made his objections to the photographs he deleted somewhat clearer. Among other things he thought they were too small. (Not my fault. He or anyone could have made them larger.) I was aiming at what Slrubenstein asked for just above. The photos have not disappeared from this earth. They are real people and in each case I know with a reasonable degree of certainty where those people and most if not all of their ancestors hail from. What we need, then, is more photos. We would need most particularly "first nation" people of Australia, Tamils, First Nation people in the U.S., Canada, South America, and also Hawaiians, Melanesians... If I can come up with three or four population samples, surely some of the rest of you are cosmopolitan enough to have friends among some of these other groups. All my samples were male, primarily because I took the guys from Malawi, Japan, and China from martial arts classes I have participated in. They should ideally be matched with female humans. I would like to have a photo for each terminus on the new pop-gen map. I'd also like clarification on why it is different from the one immediately preceding it. Some of its paths look like they might be mistaken, and there are none of the very useful YBP dates that the somewhat earlier one had. P0M 03:27, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
§ I just archived about 100k of older stuff and this "page" is still over 32k. I may cut some more back after people have absorbed the shock of the major amputation. Don't worry, all earlier contributions have just been moved to enable people with older browsers to have some chance of editing this document. P0M 04:02, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Rik:Based on memory, it seems to me that the opening paragraphs have been changed -- for the worse. If I'm mistaken, then they are nonetheless innaccurate. The paragraph below is especially vague/incorrect. It seems to be mixing the social and biological meanings of race inappropriately.
This paragraph conflates the tortured social definitions of race with the different but related idea of races as biological subgroups. These are two separate issues. -- Rikurzhen 08:37, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
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Here is my suggestion for a replacement paragraph. -- Rikurzhen 01:06, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)
The analyses of most social scientists conclude that the common social notions of race are social constructs. These defintions of race are derived from custom, vary between cultures, and are described as imprecise and fluid. Often these definitions rely on phenotypic characteristics or inferred ancestry. The analysis of human genetic variation also provides insight into human population history and structure. The recent spread of humans from Africa has created a situation where the majority of human genetic variation is found within each human population. However, as a result of physical and cultural isolation of human groups, a significant subset of genetic variation is found between human groups. This variation is highly structured and therefore useful for distingushing groups and placing individual into groups. Admixture and clinal variation between groups can be confounding to this kind of analysis of human variation. The relationship between social and genetic definitions of race is complex. Phenotypic racial classifications do not necessarily correspond with genotypical groups; some more than others. To the extent that ancestry corresponds to social definitions of race, groups identified by genetics will also correspond with these notions. Whether human population structure warrants the distinction of human 'races' is a matter of debate, with majority opinions varying between disciplines. Some biologists prefer the term population to race. Similar reasoning has lead some to describe races as (inbred) extended families.
That is ridiculous, the minimum is far too young. Andries 15:48, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This calculation comes from a very recent Nature paper -- see the see also section. It is based on a mathematical model of human migrations, etc. I argued with the poster that it was too soon to put that in because no time had passed for other researchers to refute the model, but he persisted. The result is surprising, but at the moment we don't have solid reasons to argue against it other than the criticisms that were published with the paper. Those criticisms are quite technical, so they would be hard to articulate in the article. -- Rikurzhen 16:56, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
There's a discusion of the paper here. -- Rikurzhen 17:50, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
Nature Genetics has published a full issue on race [3]. There are about a dozen articles on various topics. I hope that at least the abstracts are freely available. -- Rikurzhen 18:50, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)
I think I remember that someone wanted to map of human skin color variation. I found one that we should be able to use. -- Rikurzhen 23:13, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
very neat. it should have a date, though: Is it present-day distribution, or pre-colonial ('white America' suggests the former; it would be cool to have a pre-columbian map to campare it to.) besides, I am certainly not arguing that the Mercator projection is 'colonial POV', but since it has been accused of that, it would be a very good idea to use a different projection, for this particular subject matter, ideally a true-to-area one (because dark areas are close to the equator and are thus severely underrepresented in this projection). Yeah, I know it's not easy to just change the projection. dab 08:06, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC) Found out that it's pre-1940 indigenous population. Adding a legend. dab 19:12, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Have you ever wondered why SW Asians and North Africans are classified as Caucasoid? Also why are blacks restricted only to sub-Saharan Africa? Why in the last time i checked there were some 500 races?
Here is the real definition of race from britannica 2002 print set:
"Cultural concept based on the popular but mistaken notion that human beings can be divided into biologically distinct categories by means of particular physical features such as skin color, head shape, and other visible traits that are transmissible by descent. Genetic studies undertaken in the last decades of the 20th century confirm that "races" do not exist in any biological sense. See Racism."
I agree with britannica. We know that humans share 99.9% of all genes, except 0.1%. First of all, it should be noted that 0.1% is for the genes that ARE SPECIFIC TO HUMANS. All human biodiversity takes part in this 0.1% so it's a very small part of our genetic makeup.
Secondly, almost every gene one can find among one group of humans, one can find in a wildly differing group of humans. The handful of exceptions are found among biological groups too small to be considered as races in any way, shape or form. -- Orionix
Dbachman, the purpose of talk pages is to improve the article. Unless you can specify where in the article you think there is a need for improvement, please restrain yourself -- this is not a listserve or blog. The points you make are ones that are already in the talk page archives, having been made countless times before. The current article draft incorporates these views. If you are not satisfied and can see a specific place that needs to be changed, by all means suggest it or go ahead and make the change. Otherwise -- what is your point? Slrubenstein
User Orionix wants to add this text to the top of the article (actually he/she wanted to replace the intro with it at first). I believe it is (1) POV and (2) factually incorrect/misleading. I suggest that the existing intro already contains this idea but is presented in a more NPOV fashion. If this POV isn't adaquately represented in the article, then I suggest additional but NPOV-framed material on it. -- Rikurzhen 20:22, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
Why do you think it's incorrect?
I think this article actually makes race dabatable. Today we know that race is a largely discredited classification system in science. Genetics have shown that race (Caucasoid, Mongoloid and Negroid) as used in early Anthropology is not definied in the biological sense. -- Orionix 23:50, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's true. Many people think otherwise. However i believe that the purpose of any encyclopedia is to represent the most widely held opinions (by experts) to the public. -- Orionix 23:50, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Race is a problematic issue since many people believe in race, disregarding its scientific validity. However a racist is a person who believes that humanity is really devided into biological, objective entities -- Orionix 01:06, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I know that many people believe in race. I personally don't. I think race is in the eye of the beholder, not engraved in mother nature. As i understood the point behind NPOV makes it so that all people would agree with the arcticle.
It is taken from britannica 2002 print set. I think the paragraph is very grammatical. -- Orionix 03:00, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Ok, i will try to explain. The point by this phrase is that races actually exist but they aren't biological realities, they are social or cultural realities, a conduct of human history and culture. Probably the word "race" doesn't mean the same for all people but in the old mythology it was in reference to sub-species within the human species. -- Orionix 03:00, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
One can never prove a negative. Thus one can never prove the non-existence of race in the same way that one can't prove the non-existence of God. In science, we go by the best theory as proven by rigorous research. In the field of physical anthropology, regarding human race, the best, most well supported theory is that race is a social construct, not a physical one.
When one thinks of the huge expenditures that have gone into the scientific search for human race over the last century and a half, it's actually purely remarkable that what was once the alternative theory - that race doesn't exist - has today become as proven as anything ever is in the sciences. In fact, the theory that race is a social and not physical phenomenon gets most of its proof precisely FROM the long line of racist inspired research that has been able to turn up nothing at all. -- Orionix 03:00, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The races we construct are arbitrary. For example why are blacks limited only to sub-Saharan Africa? Why are North Africans classified as white? Many of them have dark skin and curly hair.
The biological variations between humans are clinal or happen to follow geographic patterns.
§ The kicker in this case is the undefined term "biologically distinct." How distinct is distinct? Species are defined by the fact that cross-species breedings produce, at best, progeny that cannot in turn reproduce themselves. Subspecies are defined by less rigorous distinctions, and at least the resident Wikipedia spider expert guy finds them problematical. A major criterion is that there be sufficiently great barriers of one kind or another so that consequently the subspecies hardly ever interbreed. The next questions are whether there are less rigorous subcategories that are yet useful, and whether, if there are, those subcategories correspond to what some people call "races."
Clines, populations or ethnic groups are valid categories. Clines and races are mutually exclussive of course. -- Orionix 03:00, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Given an A PRIORI definition of what human race consists of, then sure enough, we can measure a certain trait (like skin color) and create a genetic division of humanity accordingly. Skin color changes geographically, not racially. Also no one has the same amount of skin pigmentation. -- Orionix 03:04, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes exactly. Race is actually the distribution of numerous physical traits that people perceive as being the most important, like skin color, hair form, etc. Such traits are geographically patterned more or less the way popular western prejudice holds them to be. -- Orionix 03:00, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
in reply to 'is race biologically real?' (and if so, what is it?) above, I drew a new 'tree' image to replace Image:Human-nj-tree.png:
I suggest that the lengthy caption of Human-nj-tree.png is worked into a paragraph of its own explaining this image. dab 11:27, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Looks good, I changed human mrca to first humans b/c of the recent Nature paper suggesting a recent mrca b/c of gene flow between human populations. -- Rikurzhen 18:35, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
There hasn't been any movement on my suggestion to replace the mugshots with computer generated faces. Would the skin color map make a suitable replacement? -- Rikurzhen 18:53, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
I like the skin color map. I still like the UN picture of the kids around the globe, too, Slrubenstein
Maybe someone should double check the original page [6] and [7] to make certain this image is either pubilc domain or fair use. It isn't clear to me. -- Rikurzhen 19:33, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
§ It would be great if we could key attractive images to a map, e.g., the migration map. What happened to that map, by the way. The previous one had dates of arrival at various destinations that made it very useful. The newer image is more attractive in some ways, but the paths seem not to have been drawn with sufficient accuracy. P0M 19:38, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
§ I've improved the gamma and the coloring of the skin color map. I'm not sure what fiddling with it this much does to make it a "new" work of art, but it is at least as fair to use it as it was to use the original. I hope it looks as much better on Windows computers as it does on my Mac. Now you can see the lighter skin tones as something other than white. I see that I missed one spot. More improvements later if it looks to other like it may be worth it. P0M 09:43, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's hard to see the difference between 12-26 with Windows. Does this .png image work better on Mac? -- Rikurzhen 10:27, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but you made a mess of the image :-\ you would just need to adjust the rgb curves. Instead it looks like you used area-fill. the baltic sea is brown now, and the areas are all fuzzy now. Anyway, I suggest somebody takes a Plate Carrée Projection map and manually copies the coloured areas to adress my "projection concerns" above, as well as concerns of copyvio. dab 11:27, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
yes, we'd ideally want a true-to-area projection. we can cut off greenland, but this will mean we will also cut off northern siberia, which is not "empty". I'd rather have a decent projection of the entire globe, and the "empty" space in some separate colour (but not screaming red, please ;) dab 21:29, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
P0M 23:54, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
§ If it's hard for you to re-do your map then maybe I can take that map and put it through my wringer. But your map seems to have lost one color distinction. Maybe it is there and can still be brought out by digital manipulation. P0M 08:16, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
end of archived materials
Geographical variations in human skin color do not make biological races.
In the old mythologies race was in reference to subspecies within the human species or to a human group (like sub-Saharan Africans) who differs stably and objectively from the other group (Europeans) in all their physical characteristics. Of course this is reffering to classical racist times (see Carleton Coon for additional information).
In the past physical Anthropolgists believed that race is 'bone deep'. This means that they could tell who is Negroid (black) or Cacausoid (white) by the skull and other body measurments. Of course this was not an objective measurment. Today race is rejected by most Anthropologists as a physical reality.
For example if they would have looked at height, weight, muscles, fatness, ear size etc, genetically inherited physical traits which are not indicative of race they would have a problem. -- Orionix 21:12, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This classifying function is performed by the scientist himself, not mother nature. If he were to choose 3 or 4 different traits for his classifying purposes, he'd get a significantly different population he'd have to look at. -- Orionix 21:12, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Exactly but many people believe in race like they believe in God or astrological signs. Like all human classificatory systems - totemism, astrology - it refernces to a physically observable universe but it is not implied by that physically observable universe. -- Orionix 21:24, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
People reach out with the organizing capabilities of their minds and set up groupings that have greater or lesser utility in helping us navigate the world. It makes sense to distinguish zebras from horses, even though they are members of the same genera, because even though they look pretty much alike they are behaviorally different enough that almost nobody keep a zebra to ride. But it doesn't make sense to distinguish green canaries from yellow canaries (except for color preference) because the color of their feathers is the only distinguishing difference. And most humans will be surprised to learn that house sparrows and canaries are genetically close enough that a house sparrow will foster a lost canary fledgling.
I absolutely agree. However all physical characteristics are genetically inherited by parents to offspring. However the amount of genes we do not share is only 1/1000 of our genetic make-up. We are the same but predominantly the same. -- Orionix 21:12, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Rigorous genetic studies undertaken in the last decade (see Human Genome Project) confirm that races (Caucasoid, Mongoloid and Negroid) are not determined in our genes. This means that you cannot tell who is Caucasoid (white) and who is Negroid (black) by looking in his/her DNA. -- Orionix 21:19, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
§ Actually, that is not exactly correct. White people are white because they have alleles of certain genes that code for skin color. If you find those genetic characteristics then you know that the person has white skin even if you only have a hair follicle to go on. The shovel shaped incisors that characterize many Chinese people are inherited genetically. The tightly curled hair that is characteristic of Africans is also genetically determined. So if a forensic pathologist finds enough of a trace of a body (some blood, hair, and scalp in the trunk of a car perhaps), s/he can tell if the person had certain physical characteristics that would help identify him/her. Many of the characteristics that people go by to categorize by the social construct called "race" are genetically determined. (Some, such as language, customs, etc., are learned.) If the forensic pathologist finds genetic evidence of the main characteristics that people would use to visually identify a person, and comes up with the description: red hair, wavy hair, blue eyes, etc., etc., then the pathologist can tell the police officers to look for somebody that the neighbors might have identified as Irish or perhaps some other Celtic group.
It's correct. However we choose 3 or 4 genetically inherited physical traits which account for our physically distinct human types while ignoring others like height, weight, ear size, budy hair. This physical traits are not indicative of race.
Although race is a used is forensic science pathologists can identify people individually (DNA, blood type and enzymes). -- Orionix 21:19, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There are physical differences which are geographically structured or patterned. However there are no stable, objectively descrete human types called races.
The fallacy that human beings "evolved" in dfiferent environments is properly called "poligenecism" and it was quite thoroughly debunked in the early 20th century. In biological, evolutionary terms, we evolved in the same environment and the changes that have come after we left Africa are quite few and superficial. Furthermore, they are not linked together in genetic packages.
For example, there is nothing about black skin, say, that implies that one will have curly hair, thick lips, or what have you. Take any given human physcial attribute you like - skin color, hair form, whatever. You will find, if you classify people based on this attribute, that all others vary around it. Racial classification only makes sense relative to other groups likewise classified. -- Orionix 21:10, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
So what the genetic evidence can do is suggest the likelihood that somebody is a member of one group or another, but because we are not even divided into subspecies there is so much genetic mixing that Europeans can have shovel-shaped incisors, for instance. The real question is, "How much like the statistically average Chinese/Finn/Native American does somebody have to be in order to be included in that group?" I have some friends whose children are of mixed European and Chinese genetic heritage. They tell me that Chinese people tell them their kids look more like Americans than like Chinese, and that American people tell them that their kids look more Chinese than American. It looks like there is a common "they don't look like us" function being exhibited here.
Genetic clines do exist. The varation between human populations is clinal or is distributed by geographic origin. A cline is a gradient of morphological or physiological change in a group of related organisms usually along a line of environmental or geographical transition. However objectible, stable, true-breeding human races do not. -- Orionix 21:10, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Every human being is unique so you'd have to create a race for every single person. There's scientific evidence that race as defined in the 19th century leads to false misconception. There's no genetical evidence for it either.
I do not believe in human races as an objective, biological phenomenon. Saying that race exists as a social and historical phenomenon is different from saying it does not exist. -- Orionix 05:51, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC).
§ It looks like the skin shade maps have been improved again. Now the one with the better projection looks almost as good as mine on my Macintosh. On neither one of them is it terribly easy to see the distinctions among the very lightest of colors, but it's much better now than it was before -- when the lightest 3 or 4 bands looked almost exactly the same. So even if I can't coax a little more contrast out of the lastest version I think we should replace the mug shots ASAP. P0M 08:38, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hi,
§ Please create a log-in identity for yourself. It will make it easier to communicate. (You don't have to reveal anything about yourself. But if somebody else with the same numerical identification creates problems you could attract negative attention. It's happened before.) Also, when you make comments it is always helpful to preserve other people's indentations, and to indent your own comments appropriately so that it will be more clear whether you are commenting on speaker 1 or speaker 2's remarks. E.G.
I agree entirely. [User:Digger-O'Dell]
§ So with whom is the friendly undertaker agreeing? 1? or 2?
§ Sometimes things have gotten so bad that I have written an angry retort to something that I myself said. ;-) That's why I start my paragraphs with "§" -- and then if somebody splits up a paragraph that I wrote I go back and re-identify what I have written before I forget that it's my own stuff. P0M 07:49, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
§ See new skin shade map above P0M 17:20, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
§ I see another set of comparisons has been created above. The new projection in nice, but the four or five lightest shades all come out as white on my Mac. The colors I supplied (farther up on this page) look o.k. on the Mac. P0M 22:48, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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I haven't read the entire article -- not nearly. In fact, I've barely skimmed it. However, it seems clear that certain long-held misperceptions regarding who belongs to what "race" persist. The U.S. practice of characterizing indio-Latinos as "white" is absurd. They are as Asian as Native Americans; they simply were subjugated/colonized by white folks who spoke Spanish and Portuguese, rather than English. What sense does THAT make?
And the notion of classifying East Indians, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis as "Caucasian" is equally absurd. They're as black as Australian aborigines and New Guineans -- some in the south of India and in Bangladesh even with blue-black skin and nappy/frizzy hair. This ridiculous notion is more emblematic of the racism of European pseudo-scientists who refused to admit that anyone other than Caucasians was capable of buiding a high civilization. This is the same thinking that produced the schools of thought that some wandering white tribe built Timbuktu, and that the earliest dynastic Egyptians were anything and everything other than blue-black Africans with nappy hair. They want us to continue to believe the lie that Nubians were little more than slaves of white (or nearly white) Egyptian pharaohs. It's time to join the twenty-first century, people! If you didn't know any of this before, didn't ANYONE see the Spencer Wells documentary on the "Journey of Man" that aired on PBS earlier this year (or last?) in which, using DNA evidence, he traced the earliest out-migration of the San bushmen to India and Australia -- and then to points beyond? http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/photogalleries/journey_of_man/photo8.html deeceevoice 19:10, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Maybe YOU should check your facts - your link led to info about Spencer Wells saying that he found that ALL people migrated out from Africa ~40,000 years ago, instead of 100K - Europeans AND Indians AND Chinese.
As to the idea that Indians are NOT "Caucasians" - it only goes the show the weakness of the whole idea of race. There is no major discontinuity of language family or of "racial" characteristics from Hyderabad to Dublin. The only reason NOT to call Indians (and Iranians, and Greeks) 'Caucasian' is that they don't fit the "Nordic" ideal that Aryan suspremacists go for. Sure, there is significant admixture of other genes, and a sudden change is language family as you move into southern India - but again, no sudden discontinuity in the people. The tribals in India definitely represent some different lineage - which I would say is probably related to the Australians, but that doesn't have to be closely related. Ironically, the people of the Caucasus (the only real Caucasians) are called 'black' by the Russians.
As for Egyptians - I can only speak from illustrations I have seen, but they drew themselves as lighter skinned than 'Nubians', but darker skinned than Semites. 'Blue-black' Africans would strike me as rather out of place in Nile valley, since most of the really dark skinned people are further to the south and west. What evidence is there that they were blacker than say, Ethiopians or Sudanese?
Sure, the Euro-centric ideas of the Victorians were in no way connected with reality, but the Afro-centric revisionism of history is sometimes no less chauvinistic...Africa populated the world, yes, but the descendents of those Africans include ALL humans. IF people choose to classify according to race, and they use the old Caucasoid/Mongoloid/Negroid/Australoid classes, there is no logical reason to put Indians anywhere other than Caucasoid. Sure, Indian tribals, like the 'Negritos' of the Philipines, disappear in that classification system. But to place someone outside of the 'white' race because they have one drop of non-white blood is ridiculous. I am half Indian and half European. I consider myself non-white. But I would get laughed at if I tried to place myself in any of those categories EXCEPT 'Caucasoid'. As for my Indian-Chinese-European-African-Amerindian cousins, the idea of having to 'choose one" (like many American surveys of race ask) is ridiculous. I know my Indian-African-European-Amerindian brother-in-law would be deeply insulted by having to choose a race - even a broad category. Guettarda 22:58, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC) ---
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Caucasian is a bone structure and shape. It has nothing to do with skin, hair and eye coloring. Just like a green apple is still an apple even though it is not red in color, it is shaped like an apple and has apple DNA, therefore it is still an apple even though it is not red. A green bananna and a green apple are the same color, but NOT the same Race. Because the shape/features are different and of course the DNA is completely different too. Caucasians are basically all Indo-Europeans from India to England. Of course their coloring, body-type is different. Race and color are two different things. Now as for the Negro parts of Asia, there's a negro element in India's natives, more the Ethiopian-type. But this can be proven by the flat noses and big lips, more of an East Asian + Negro mix. But the upper-castes of India are of Iranian, Turk and Greek blood. So they're tall, strong, and look "White", even if they're darker, they do have the Anglo-Saxon features and body type, just darker skin, hair and eyes. Many are rather fair and even white-skinned too. But the Caucasian continuum basically is evident from much of India to England: The noses are straight, the faces are oval, the height is medium to tall to some very tall (over 6'3") Caucasoid-types. Just the coloring varies, even super-dark skinned India people, seem to have no Oriental and Negro features, all Caucasian features. But if the features were different there are also many negroid types, then sure they're not Caucasian. But all civilization was built first by the non-Caucasians, the point made about how Westerners (even though they got their science and math from non-Caucasoids from the ancient times), thought no one but Caucasoids were able to build anything, is completely absurd. It's not so much Races, but skilled engineers and scientists accomplishments throughout all Races, that the Westerners (who are merchants not really scientists/engineers) have compiled and gathered into their own made-up "white system" to serve their own Western Elite self-interest. I'm a Mechanical Engineer, if it weren't for all the Races on Earth's discoveries and findings throughout time and history, no one would have anything today. It was all of the Races of the Earth who got together at one time and compiled the fundamentals in nature, science, mathematics and reasoning for making theories which might be proven into facts/constants. But in terms of Race, it's the features more than anything.
§ Not only are we back to debating the existence of [race], but we are presented with an article that makes [race] a photographable reality and breaks humans into black and white divisions.
P0M 02:09, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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I happened across this article only a couple of days before it was featured on Wikipedia and made a note to myself to come back to it later. It needed lots of work. I don't know if the change was made before it was featured, but I happened to notice the use of "morphological" to describe physical differences among the "races." Well, that stuck out like a sore thumb. I scanned the page briefly (in a matter of seconds) to see if it was still there, but didn't see it. But if it hasn't been corrected, someone ought to. There ARE no " morphological" differences in humankind; there are phenotypical (contrasted with genotypical) ones. deeceevoice 07:23, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I'm still playing hooky from various deadlines -- but not for long. Another tidbit from the Internet regarding black Indians and the Buddha, who was also -- yes -- black. One must note the comment below that Indians came from Ethiopia. This is doubtful, especially given Wells' research. Certainly, the earliest Indians did not originate in Ethiopia, proper. However, it is possible that subsequent migrations from other regions of the African continent occurred. Surely, there are those of us who've seen statues of the Buddha with stylistically coiled, nappy hair! Didja ever at least WONDER? :-p
If you'd like to see the photograph of the Buddha offered in the document above, visit: http://black-international-cinema.com/
deeceevoice 07:53, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC) ---
I keep thinking of other things to add. (Besides, work this a.m. is boring!) Check out this link from the Discovery program on Nefertiti. See what modern-day forensic scientists have come up with as the face of Nefertiti: http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/nefertiti/face/face.html
And here's another interactive photo -- of a Discovery Channel forensic reconstruction of the face of King Tutankhamun:
http://dsc.discovery.com/anthology/unsolvedhistory/kingtut/face/facespin.html
Booyah! :-p deeceevoice 09:00, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC) ---
More black Buddhas. Japan: This is the (or one of the) oldest Buddhas in Japan. Its features have been changed to reflect those of Buddhism's Asian adherents -- but note the tightly coiled, curly/nappy hair:
Here's an interesting "Buddha" photo montage -- some clearly Buddhas, others not so clear:
There are other ancient Buddhist shrines in Japan and elsewhere -- also with nappy hair, some with even more African-looking features -- fuller lips, faces quite wide across the cheekbones. Here's another example of another happy, nappy Buddha.
(If you're denied direct access to any of the above links, simply cut and paste them into your web browser.)
Kinky hair is not a widely recognized trait of the Japanese, or of other Asians (or any ethnic/"racial" group other than "Negroes." Nor is there any record of there ever having been a tradition of curling one's hair into tight coils in Japanese culture. These Buddhas hadn't been to the beauty salon and nail parlor for the latest 'do. So, where did the kinky hair come from? Hm-m-mmm? :-p Pop-quiz-think-fast: The oldest Buddhist artifacts ever found were excavated in what part of India? Answer: Tamil -- where Wells found his modern-day descendent of the San bushmen through DNA testing. This is consonant with recent findings that Gautama Buddha likely was born (contrary to conventional wisdom, which has him being born in Nepal) in Kapileshwar, Orissa, in India -- up the coast from Tamil Province. Buddha was a black/African/"Negroid" East Indian. deeceevoice 10:59, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC) Pre Persian-incursion India was heavily black African, with the darkest and curliest/nappiest of them residing -- as they do, still, today -- in the south, where many Tamils have mahogany (and some even blue-black) skin. Internalized white supremacist notions of white superiority and black inferiority were institutionalized and codified in the caste system of India, which still exists. Among African-Americans, there's a term for someone who suffers from internalized racism, resulting in a distinct preference/longing for lighter skin. It's called being "color-struck." :-p deeceevoice 11:15, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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A little something more from the Internet (doncha just love cyberspace? :-p) about Indian history, verbatim from "Chapter 6 - RAVANA: A NON VIOLENT "GANA-NAYAKA", (CHIEF OF REPUBLICS) CONTEMPORARY WITH THE BUDDHA." (link is provided at the end):
Later, under a subheading:
[Note: If you'd like to know what "black collyrium" looks like, it's the same as kohl, used by Eygptians to line the eyes. For a photo of black collyrium (also referred to as "jet-black collyrium," visit: http://www.webindia123.com/dances/Kathakali/make_up.htm . It is the very blackest pigment around the eyes of the individuals in the photographs.] deeceevoice
These excerpts are from an account of Indian history on the Dalit e-Forum website. For those interested in readnig further, visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Talk:Race&action=edit§ion=28
Okay. I'm done with the documentation of blacks/Africans in India. The excerpts here should give you a glimpse into the violence with which the Persian/Asian/black miscegenated folks of northern India sought to obliterate the black presence in southern India. Fortunately, clear evidence of a powerful, indigenous, pervasive African presence in India remains (though attenuated the further north one travels): in ancient texts, scholarship untainted by white supremacist lies or presumptions, in artifacts and art, in the faces of the Tamil people themselves (and, to a lesser degree, their lighter Hindu "cousins" to the north) -- and in the hearts and minds of a generation of Indians who have begun to seek the truth of their own collective history and culture. deeceevoice 15:59, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
--- @ Wareware: "Afrocentric"? What? As opposed to "Eurocentric"? How about simply "factual"? The photos weren't doctored. And Wells' DNA evidence is irrefutable.
@POM: And, no. There's nothing new about any of this. Always intensely interested in history, I remember asking my 4th grade social studies teacher, "Weren't the ancient Egyptians 'Negroes'?" (the fashionable term then, in the late '50s) -- to which the (white) teacher responded with the conventional wisdom of the time in much the way Guettarda has responded herein. Some nonsense like, "No. That's just the pigment they used in their paintings." (I didn't believe him.) Then two years later, the Aswan dam was brought online, flooding the treasures of ancient Nubia -- and Jr. Scholastic showed pages of full-color photos of towering statues of the obviously black pharoahs at Abu-Simbel. "Mr. Hudson" (who was a racist son-of-a-gun, anyway)must've had a rude awakening. lol I learned about the Africa-India connection about 35 years ago, when I realized some Ceylonese (Sri Lankan/Lanka) schoolmates looked just like "American Negroes." I'm just bringing these things up for the countless many who still believe the Eurocentric historiography, the centuries of lies -- which, despite true scholarship that has been well known in some circles even outside academia for at least a century or more, remain pervasive and persistent. Depictions of not just light-skinned, but white-skinned Egyptians with European features remain the norm on all sorts of TV "documentaries" and cinematic releases, and the only black folks you see are slaves. And, yes, East Indians are still classified as "Caucasian" in defiance of the true -- and clear -- historical record. Certainly, the population of India taken as a whole is more African/black/"Negroid" than Mongoloid and far more black African than Caucasoid. I bring these things up because, IMO, putting "racial" classifications in the context of true human history helps show how absurd they are, how self-serving vis-a-vis "scholars" who were so confident in their ass-umptions about the inherent inferiority of "Negroes," for them there was no way possible the high civilizations of ancient Egypt and India could have been wrought by black hearts, minds and hands. And then, of course, there were many who knew/understood, but just flat-out lied, anyway. And, yes, most of us are, indeed, just "bleached-out Africans." The only ones of us who aren't are dark-skinned Africans!" :-D (By the way, how do I respond to your note, when there's no direct link to your "talk" page on your user page? I'm still a relative newbie and have been too busy/impatient to read the how-to manual.) deeceevoice 08:01, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
And all of this brings me back to my original point (in "Ridiculously False Assumptions") -- that "racial" classification is far more political and economic than scientific. The motivation for white-washing history to make Egyptians non-African, taking Egypt out of Africa and placing it in some middle-Earth, "Middle East" context, and of designating East Indians Caucasoids was strictly about preserving the lies of white supremacy and its corollary, anti-black racism -- the deeply entrenched dogma (shored up by centuries of lies and obfuscation and endless pseudo "scholarship" -- historiography and pseudo-science) of the inherent inferiority of blacks/"Negroes" relative to other "racial" groups. deeceevoice 21:30, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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Re: Ware's comment that putting East Indians into the Caucasian category is somehow "liberals' attempt to erase the notion of race...." East Indians have been categorized as "Caucasians" for a very, very long time -- long before egalitarianism was the fashion. In fact, quite the contrary. The appropriation of ancient black, undeniably advanced civilizations and whitewashing them had a sinister motive -- as I stated, the perpetuation of the myth of white supremacy. Because it was impossible with India to nearly completely whitewash its inhabitants (as many historians have, unfortunately, fairly successfully have been able to do with ancient Egypt), it was sufficient to focus on the largely assimilated Hindu culture (African, Persian and Asian) and claim that India's inhabitants were somehow "Caucasoid" -- a wholly ridiculous assertion. But because East Indians by and large have for centuries wholeheartedly adopted a throughly racist, highly color-conscious approach to the darker elements in their own nation (Gandhi himself had no problem with the caste system), happily accepting the "Caucasian" designation, this fallacy largely has gone unquestioned until fairly recently. British historian and scholar Basil Davidson had it right. Such tortured, distorted "racial" designations strictly were about shoring up notions of white supremacy. I am reminded of the defense's arguments in the Rodney King incident: "Are you going to believe what you see (on videotape), or are you going to believe us?" Unfortunately, Simi Valley style, the common "wisdom" is crap. deeceevoice 09:45, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I very much appreciate the new addition, Race in biomedicine, but reading it my hackles rise at one point, and that is the unqualified use of the word "race." There must be a better way to write about [race] than to use the word as though it has a real referent. If the New York Times had an article on its front page saying that Senator Joseph Biden had introduced a bill for the imposition of landing fees on flying saucers, it would definitely get some bemused attention because it would strongly imply that both the NYT and Senator Biden believed in the existence of flying saucers. If Senator Biden was actually talking about something that didn't exist but was thought to exist because of the real existence of the planet Venus, the real existence of weather balloons, etc., etc., and he was actually introducing a bill to arrange for payments of fees for services involved in collecting downed weather balloons and the like, then the NYT would had done better to be more careful of its language. P0M
Having an article on [race] and heading it up with pictures of members of "U.S. Government Inspected" [racial] categories is horrendously inappropriate. P0M
As one recent contributor has pointed out, labeling the third group as "white (Hispanic)" is particularly inappropriate. There is no way of our knowing what the real genetic heritage of either of the individuals pictured in that category may be, but surely their parents were not Ola and Bessie from Olso. The group for which they stand as representatives does not have even a majority of its ancestry coming from Spain, nor does it have a majority of its ancestry from Spain and Germany, nor even does it have a majority of its ancestry from anywhere in Europe. O.k., perhaps I am wrong. I don't have the genetic information of that group sitting on my bookshelf. But should we perpetuate as "fact" the rule-of-thumb category whomped up by the FBI? (What are we going to call people from S. America who predominantly speak Spanish or Portugese, and who don't look much like people with a genetic heritage from Europe? Well, since there is a presumption of there being some of the conquorer's genetic heritage in most of them, and since most of them can operate in Spanish or Portugese, we'll call them "white and Hispanic") I don't think so. If we are going to call them "white (Hispanic)" -- by implication, literally, by folding in the FBI characterization -- we should have statistical proof based on genetic studies. Good luck on getting such proof, and I mean that sarcastically. P0M
What would seem fair to me is a map tesselated by faces of representative inhabitants of those places. That way we could say, "Look, this is really what is out there. People draw lines here, here, here, and here. The people on the left side of that line are called 'white,' and the people on the right side of that line are called 'black,' and then... And if you pulled the lady next to the left side of that line over next to to the right side of that line, nobody could tell the difference." P0M 09:48, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC) ---
Although I agree with much of what both of you write, I think you miss the point about the photos currently on the article page. They do not illustrate biologically real races, they illustrate how the US government constructs classifications of people. If I recall correctly, whoever originally posted the photos had the Latinos identified as "Hispanic Mestizo." One problem is, "Hispanic" (or "Latino") is not a race -- it refers to a geographic and linguistic group (indeed, that the US census asks people to identify themselves as White, Black, Hispanic, etc. just shows how confused our society's notions of classification are, since the categories are not analytically equivalent but rather mix up "race" with country of origin/home language. Second, I checked the source of the photos (I think the FBI) and saw that these people were identified as White. To repeat: the point is not that the captions are wrong and should be changed, the point is that the captions illustrate how the US government constructs such identities in a way that so obviously shows how constructed they are. I agree completely that we should use other photos -- if you look at my contributions in the original discussion on the mug-shots (above) I think I made my own view very clear. I was the one who most recently restored these photos to the article, but only because I object even more strongly to the computer-generated photos. I think we need two different kinds of photos -- some photos that illustrate not races, but populations (e.g., photos of Africans who belong to different populations and look different; photos of Europeans who belong to different populations and look different, etc.) and photos that illustrate how people in different societies construct "race" differently (e.g., Blacks and Whites from Haiti vs. the Dominical Republic). Slrubenstein
I believe that the article has extensive critique of the concept of race, although I certainly wouldn't object to more. And I agree that if the article uses these photos, it needs to provide a specific account of how these specific racial categories were constructed. But as I said, I would rather there be different photos. Slrubenstein
§ Sam Spade has made his objections to the photographs he deleted somewhat clearer. Among other things he thought they were too small. (Not my fault. He or anyone could have made them larger.) I was aiming at what Slrubenstein asked for just above. The photos have not disappeared from this earth. They are real people and in each case I know with a reasonable degree of certainty where those people and most if not all of their ancestors hail from. What we need, then, is more photos. We would need most particularly "first nation" people of Australia, Tamils, First Nation people in the U.S., Canada, South America, and also Hawaiians, Melanesians... If I can come up with three or four population samples, surely some of the rest of you are cosmopolitan enough to have friends among some of these other groups. All my samples were male, primarily because I took the guys from Malawi, Japan, and China from martial arts classes I have participated in. They should ideally be matched with female humans. I would like to have a photo for each terminus on the new pop-gen map. I'd also like clarification on why it is different from the one immediately preceding it. Some of its paths look like they might be mistaken, and there are none of the very useful YBP dates that the somewhat earlier one had. P0M 03:27, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
§ I just archived about 100k of older stuff and this "page" is still over 32k. I may cut some more back after people have absorbed the shock of the major amputation. Don't worry, all earlier contributions have just been moved to enable people with older browsers to have some chance of editing this document. P0M 04:02, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Rik:Based on memory, it seems to me that the opening paragraphs have been changed -- for the worse. If I'm mistaken, then they are nonetheless innaccurate. The paragraph below is especially vague/incorrect. It seems to be mixing the social and biological meanings of race inappropriately.
This paragraph conflates the tortured social definitions of race with the different but related idea of races as biological subgroups. These are two separate issues. -- Rikurzhen 08:37, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
---
Here is my suggestion for a replacement paragraph. -- Rikurzhen 01:06, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)
The analyses of most social scientists conclude that the common social notions of race are social constructs. These defintions of race are derived from custom, vary between cultures, and are described as imprecise and fluid. Often these definitions rely on phenotypic characteristics or inferred ancestry. The analysis of human genetic variation also provides insight into human population history and structure. The recent spread of humans from Africa has created a situation where the majority of human genetic variation is found within each human population. However, as a result of physical and cultural isolation of human groups, a significant subset of genetic variation is found between human groups. This variation is highly structured and therefore useful for distingushing groups and placing individual into groups. Admixture and clinal variation between groups can be confounding to this kind of analysis of human variation. The relationship between social and genetic definitions of race is complex. Phenotypic racial classifications do not necessarily correspond with genotypical groups; some more than others. To the extent that ancestry corresponds to social definitions of race, groups identified by genetics will also correspond with these notions. Whether human population structure warrants the distinction of human 'races' is a matter of debate, with majority opinions varying between disciplines. Some biologists prefer the term population to race. Similar reasoning has lead some to describe races as (inbred) extended families.
That is ridiculous, the minimum is far too young. Andries 15:48, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This calculation comes from a very recent Nature paper -- see the see also section. It is based on a mathematical model of human migrations, etc. I argued with the poster that it was too soon to put that in because no time had passed for other researchers to refute the model, but he persisted. The result is surprising, but at the moment we don't have solid reasons to argue against it other than the criticisms that were published with the paper. Those criticisms are quite technical, so they would be hard to articulate in the article. -- Rikurzhen 16:56, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
There's a discusion of the paper here. -- Rikurzhen 17:50, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)
Nature Genetics has published a full issue on race [3]. There are about a dozen articles on various topics. I hope that at least the abstracts are freely available. -- Rikurzhen 18:50, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)
I think I remember that someone wanted to map of human skin color variation. I found one that we should be able to use. -- Rikurzhen 23:13, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
very neat. it should have a date, though: Is it present-day distribution, or pre-colonial ('white America' suggests the former; it would be cool to have a pre-columbian map to campare it to.) besides, I am certainly not arguing that the Mercator projection is 'colonial POV', but since it has been accused of that, it would be a very good idea to use a different projection, for this particular subject matter, ideally a true-to-area one (because dark areas are close to the equator and are thus severely underrepresented in this projection). Yeah, I know it's not easy to just change the projection. dab 08:06, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC) Found out that it's pre-1940 indigenous population. Adding a legend. dab 19:12, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Have you ever wondered why SW Asians and North Africans are classified as Caucasoid? Also why are blacks restricted only to sub-Saharan Africa? Why in the last time i checked there were some 500 races?
Here is the real definition of race from britannica 2002 print set:
"Cultural concept based on the popular but mistaken notion that human beings can be divided into biologically distinct categories by means of particular physical features such as skin color, head shape, and other visible traits that are transmissible by descent. Genetic studies undertaken in the last decades of the 20th century confirm that "races" do not exist in any biological sense. See Racism."
I agree with britannica. We know that humans share 99.9% of all genes, except 0.1%. First of all, it should be noted that 0.1% is for the genes that ARE SPECIFIC TO HUMANS. All human biodiversity takes part in this 0.1% so it's a very small part of our genetic makeup.
Secondly, almost every gene one can find among one group of humans, one can find in a wildly differing group of humans. The handful of exceptions are found among biological groups too small to be considered as races in any way, shape or form. -- Orionix
Dbachman, the purpose of talk pages is to improve the article. Unless you can specify where in the article you think there is a need for improvement, please restrain yourself -- this is not a listserve or blog. The points you make are ones that are already in the talk page archives, having been made countless times before. The current article draft incorporates these views. If you are not satisfied and can see a specific place that needs to be changed, by all means suggest it or go ahead and make the change. Otherwise -- what is your point? Slrubenstein
User Orionix wants to add this text to the top of the article (actually he/she wanted to replace the intro with it at first). I believe it is (1) POV and (2) factually incorrect/misleading. I suggest that the existing intro already contains this idea but is presented in a more NPOV fashion. If this POV isn't adaquately represented in the article, then I suggest additional but NPOV-framed material on it. -- Rikurzhen 20:22, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)
Why do you think it's incorrect?
I think this article actually makes race dabatable. Today we know that race is a largely discredited classification system in science. Genetics have shown that race (Caucasoid, Mongoloid and Negroid) as used in early Anthropology is not definied in the biological sense. -- Orionix 23:50, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's true. Many people think otherwise. However i believe that the purpose of any encyclopedia is to represent the most widely held opinions (by experts) to the public. -- Orionix 23:50, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Race is a problematic issue since many people believe in race, disregarding its scientific validity. However a racist is a person who believes that humanity is really devided into biological, objective entities -- Orionix 01:06, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I know that many people believe in race. I personally don't. I think race is in the eye of the beholder, not engraved in mother nature. As i understood the point behind NPOV makes it so that all people would agree with the arcticle.
It is taken from britannica 2002 print set. I think the paragraph is very grammatical. -- Orionix 03:00, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Ok, i will try to explain. The point by this phrase is that races actually exist but they aren't biological realities, they are social or cultural realities, a conduct of human history and culture. Probably the word "race" doesn't mean the same for all people but in the old mythology it was in reference to sub-species within the human species. -- Orionix 03:00, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
One can never prove a negative. Thus one can never prove the non-existence of race in the same way that one can't prove the non-existence of God. In science, we go by the best theory as proven by rigorous research. In the field of physical anthropology, regarding human race, the best, most well supported theory is that race is a social construct, not a physical one.
When one thinks of the huge expenditures that have gone into the scientific search for human race over the last century and a half, it's actually purely remarkable that what was once the alternative theory - that race doesn't exist - has today become as proven as anything ever is in the sciences. In fact, the theory that race is a social and not physical phenomenon gets most of its proof precisely FROM the long line of racist inspired research that has been able to turn up nothing at all. -- Orionix 03:00, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The races we construct are arbitrary. For example why are blacks limited only to sub-Saharan Africa? Why are North Africans classified as white? Many of them have dark skin and curly hair.
The biological variations between humans are clinal or happen to follow geographic patterns.
§ The kicker in this case is the undefined term "biologically distinct." How distinct is distinct? Species are defined by the fact that cross-species breedings produce, at best, progeny that cannot in turn reproduce themselves. Subspecies are defined by less rigorous distinctions, and at least the resident Wikipedia spider expert guy finds them problematical. A major criterion is that there be sufficiently great barriers of one kind or another so that consequently the subspecies hardly ever interbreed. The next questions are whether there are less rigorous subcategories that are yet useful, and whether, if there are, those subcategories correspond to what some people call "races."
Clines, populations or ethnic groups are valid categories. Clines and races are mutually exclussive of course. -- Orionix 03:00, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Given an A PRIORI definition of what human race consists of, then sure enough, we can measure a certain trait (like skin color) and create a genetic division of humanity accordingly. Skin color changes geographically, not racially. Also no one has the same amount of skin pigmentation. -- Orionix 03:04, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes exactly. Race is actually the distribution of numerous physical traits that people perceive as being the most important, like skin color, hair form, etc. Such traits are geographically patterned more or less the way popular western prejudice holds them to be. -- Orionix 03:00, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
in reply to 'is race biologically real?' (and if so, what is it?) above, I drew a new 'tree' image to replace Image:Human-nj-tree.png:
I suggest that the lengthy caption of Human-nj-tree.png is worked into a paragraph of its own explaining this image. dab 11:27, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Looks good, I changed human mrca to first humans b/c of the recent Nature paper suggesting a recent mrca b/c of gene flow between human populations. -- Rikurzhen 18:35, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
There hasn't been any movement on my suggestion to replace the mugshots with computer generated faces. Would the skin color map make a suitable replacement? -- Rikurzhen 18:53, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
I like the skin color map. I still like the UN picture of the kids around the globe, too, Slrubenstein
Maybe someone should double check the original page [6] and [7] to make certain this image is either pubilc domain or fair use. It isn't clear to me. -- Rikurzhen 19:33, Nov 20, 2004 (UTC)
§ It would be great if we could key attractive images to a map, e.g., the migration map. What happened to that map, by the way. The previous one had dates of arrival at various destinations that made it very useful. The newer image is more attractive in some ways, but the paths seem not to have been drawn with sufficient accuracy. P0M 19:38, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
§ I've improved the gamma and the coloring of the skin color map. I'm not sure what fiddling with it this much does to make it a "new" work of art, but it is at least as fair to use it as it was to use the original. I hope it looks as much better on Windows computers as it does on my Mac. Now you can see the lighter skin tones as something other than white. I see that I missed one spot. More improvements later if it looks to other like it may be worth it. P0M 09:43, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's hard to see the difference between 12-26 with Windows. Does this .png image work better on Mac? -- Rikurzhen 10:27, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but you made a mess of the image :-\ you would just need to adjust the rgb curves. Instead it looks like you used area-fill. the baltic sea is brown now, and the areas are all fuzzy now. Anyway, I suggest somebody takes a Plate Carrée Projection map and manually copies the coloured areas to adress my "projection concerns" above, as well as concerns of copyvio. dab 11:27, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
yes, we'd ideally want a true-to-area projection. we can cut off greenland, but this will mean we will also cut off northern siberia, which is not "empty". I'd rather have a decent projection of the entire globe, and the "empty" space in some separate colour (but not screaming red, please ;) dab 21:29, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
P0M 23:54, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
§ If it's hard for you to re-do your map then maybe I can take that map and put it through my wringer. But your map seems to have lost one color distinction. Maybe it is there and can still be brought out by digital manipulation. P0M 08:16, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
end of archived materials
Geographical variations in human skin color do not make biological races.
In the old mythologies race was in reference to subspecies within the human species or to a human group (like sub-Saharan Africans) who differs stably and objectively from the other group (Europeans) in all their physical characteristics. Of course this is reffering to classical racist times (see Carleton Coon for additional information).
In the past physical Anthropolgists believed that race is 'bone deep'. This means that they could tell who is Negroid (black) or Cacausoid (white) by the skull and other body measurments. Of course this was not an objective measurment. Today race is rejected by most Anthropologists as a physical reality.
For example if they would have looked at height, weight, muscles, fatness, ear size etc, genetically inherited physical traits which are not indicative of race they would have a problem. -- Orionix 21:12, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This classifying function is performed by the scientist himself, not mother nature. If he were to choose 3 or 4 different traits for his classifying purposes, he'd get a significantly different population he'd have to look at. -- Orionix 21:12, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Exactly but many people believe in race like they believe in God or astrological signs. Like all human classificatory systems - totemism, astrology - it refernces to a physically observable universe but it is not implied by that physically observable universe. -- Orionix 21:24, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
People reach out with the organizing capabilities of their minds and set up groupings that have greater or lesser utility in helping us navigate the world. It makes sense to distinguish zebras from horses, even though they are members of the same genera, because even though they look pretty much alike they are behaviorally different enough that almost nobody keep a zebra to ride. But it doesn't make sense to distinguish green canaries from yellow canaries (except for color preference) because the color of their feathers is the only distinguishing difference. And most humans will be surprised to learn that house sparrows and canaries are genetically close enough that a house sparrow will foster a lost canary fledgling.
I absolutely agree. However all physical characteristics are genetically inherited by parents to offspring. However the amount of genes we do not share is only 1/1000 of our genetic make-up. We are the same but predominantly the same. -- Orionix 21:12, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Rigorous genetic studies undertaken in the last decade (see Human Genome Project) confirm that races (Caucasoid, Mongoloid and Negroid) are not determined in our genes. This means that you cannot tell who is Caucasoid (white) and who is Negroid (black) by looking in his/her DNA. -- Orionix 21:19, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
§ Actually, that is not exactly correct. White people are white because they have alleles of certain genes that code for skin color. If you find those genetic characteristics then you know that the person has white skin even if you only have a hair follicle to go on. The shovel shaped incisors that characterize many Chinese people are inherited genetically. The tightly curled hair that is characteristic of Africans is also genetically determined. So if a forensic pathologist finds enough of a trace of a body (some blood, hair, and scalp in the trunk of a car perhaps), s/he can tell if the person had certain physical characteristics that would help identify him/her. Many of the characteristics that people go by to categorize by the social construct called "race" are genetically determined. (Some, such as language, customs, etc., are learned.) If the forensic pathologist finds genetic evidence of the main characteristics that people would use to visually identify a person, and comes up with the description: red hair, wavy hair, blue eyes, etc., etc., then the pathologist can tell the police officers to look for somebody that the neighbors might have identified as Irish or perhaps some other Celtic group.
It's correct. However we choose 3 or 4 genetically inherited physical traits which account for our physically distinct human types while ignoring others like height, weight, ear size, budy hair. This physical traits are not indicative of race.
Although race is a used is forensic science pathologists can identify people individually (DNA, blood type and enzymes). -- Orionix 21:19, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There are physical differences which are geographically structured or patterned. However there are no stable, objectively descrete human types called races.
The fallacy that human beings "evolved" in dfiferent environments is properly called "poligenecism" and it was quite thoroughly debunked in the early 20th century. In biological, evolutionary terms, we evolved in the same environment and the changes that have come after we left Africa are quite few and superficial. Furthermore, they are not linked together in genetic packages.
For example, there is nothing about black skin, say, that implies that one will have curly hair, thick lips, or what have you. Take any given human physcial attribute you like - skin color, hair form, whatever. You will find, if you classify people based on this attribute, that all others vary around it. Racial classification only makes sense relative to other groups likewise classified. -- Orionix 21:10, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
So what the genetic evidence can do is suggest the likelihood that somebody is a member of one group or another, but because we are not even divided into subspecies there is so much genetic mixing that Europeans can have shovel-shaped incisors, for instance. The real question is, "How much like the statistically average Chinese/Finn/Native American does somebody have to be in order to be included in that group?" I have some friends whose children are of mixed European and Chinese genetic heritage. They tell me that Chinese people tell them their kids look more like Americans than like Chinese, and that American people tell them that their kids look more Chinese than American. It looks like there is a common "they don't look like us" function being exhibited here.
Genetic clines do exist. The varation between human populations is clinal or is distributed by geographic origin. A cline is a gradient of morphological or physiological change in a group of related organisms usually along a line of environmental or geographical transition. However objectible, stable, true-breeding human races do not. -- Orionix 21:10, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Every human being is unique so you'd have to create a race for every single person. There's scientific evidence that race as defined in the 19th century leads to false misconception. There's no genetical evidence for it either.
I do not believe in human races as an objective, biological phenomenon. Saying that race exists as a social and historical phenomenon is different from saying it does not exist. -- Orionix 05:51, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC).
§ It looks like the skin shade maps have been improved again. Now the one with the better projection looks almost as good as mine on my Macintosh. On neither one of them is it terribly easy to see the distinctions among the very lightest of colors, but it's much better now than it was before -- when the lightest 3 or 4 bands looked almost exactly the same. So even if I can't coax a little more contrast out of the lastest version I think we should replace the mug shots ASAP. P0M 08:38, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hi,
§ Please create a log-in identity for yourself. It will make it easier to communicate. (You don't have to reveal anything about yourself. But if somebody else with the same numerical identification creates problems you could attract negative attention. It's happened before.) Also, when you make comments it is always helpful to preserve other people's indentations, and to indent your own comments appropriately so that it will be more clear whether you are commenting on speaker 1 or speaker 2's remarks. E.G.
I agree entirely. [User:Digger-O'Dell]
§ So with whom is the friendly undertaker agreeing? 1? or 2?
§ Sometimes things have gotten so bad that I have written an angry retort to something that I myself said. ;-) That's why I start my paragraphs with "§" -- and then if somebody splits up a paragraph that I wrote I go back and re-identify what I have written before I forget that it's my own stuff. P0M 07:49, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
§ See new skin shade map above P0M 17:20, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
§ I see another set of comparisons has been created above. The new projection in nice, but the four or five lightest shades all come out as white on my Mac. The colors I supplied (farther up on this page) look o.k. on the Mac. P0M 22:48, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)