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It is the wildest and most repulsive of all the islands. John MacCulloch 1824.
The article was moved from Rum to Rùm following a request at WP:RM and the vote below.
The Ordnance Survey uses the spelling Rùm (with the grave accent) at all scales.
For the record. See Wikipedia:Naming policy poll There are cases when the official name of a location (generally cities) is different than what most English speakers call it. Current wikipedia policy is that the more common name should be used. ... The purpose of this poll is to reaffirm or change this policy. ... Agree 45 Change 18, Abstain 7, spoilt 5. -- Philip Baird Shearer 09:49, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
The following may or may not be spelling issues, but seem inconsistent in my read of the content. Fix or ignore the suggestions as deemed appropriate.
All now fixed. i-dhruim, Lewisian, Dibidil. Snalwibma ( talk) 08:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Many thanks folks! Ben MacDui Talk/ Walk 08:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd chosen the wording "would be pronounced" as that's a totally hypothetic form (and from a phonological pov nonsene) but I won't argue - but perhaps we should add an asterisk to show it's a hypothetical form? Slightly different point though, the article disagrees with itself - the info box gives rum-oy, the etymology section rõm-øy and given the discussion we've had recently about Skye, I have a feeling neither is spelled correctly. I'm glad to see OS is doing their usual botch job, adding the accent on Rùm was totally unnecessary... all Gaelic vowels before a final -m (an -ll, -rr, and -nn). Akerbeltz ( talk) 10:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
"rõm-øy" it now is in both cases per H-Smith. Pleasant though it is to imagine a time-travelling device to sort these things out, I suspect the derivation is likely to be an enduring mystery. I agree about the accent but lack the motivation to start another discussion. Re "would be pronounced", why do we not know how ì-dhruim is pronounced? Ben MacDui Talk/ Walk 18:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
It's a nice photo of the Mausoleum but surely it's misleading (or someone's joke?) to put it under prehistory when it was built in the early 20th century - although this fact is not mentioned in the article. -- JBellis ( talk) 09:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
ETHNIC CLEANSING I think that the rather casual comment regarding "ethnic cleansing" needs some citation. Also, by whom- was it the English, as implied? Or was it just economic reality being exercised by the Scottish landowners, as occured in the rest of the Highlands? DanBrodman ( talk) 08:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Reply- So you think that Rum's farmers were evicted because they were Gaels and not because the ("English speaking"- but also Gaelic?) landowner could get a better economic return (sadly, economic reality often means the enrichment of just a few) by selling Rum or using it for other purposes? I also think that drawing parallels with considerably larger and strategically located islands in the middle of northern Atlantic fishing grounds is not particularly relevant. Incidentally, I bet the descendants of these Rum farmers live a far better life in (probably) Canada and (maybe) America or Australia than they would if they still lived on Rum. Let's not romanticise serfdom. DB.
Ben you write 'The definition would seem to be "the planned deliberate removal from a specific territory, of persons of a particular ethnic group, by force or intimidation, in order to render that area ethnically homogenous." That is exactly what occurred.' Oh no it isn't! The motivation for the Highland Clearances is generally accepted to have been economic, not ethnic, and the population of the areas which were cleared, though much smaller, was no more or less 'ethnically homogeneous' after the Clearances than it was before it. Dhmellor ( talk) 14:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I entirely agree that the term 'clearance' is euphemistic in this context - it was an extraordinarily ruthless process, just as ethnic cleansing is. But the Clearances were not ethnic cleansing, because they were not carried out 'in order to render that area ethnically homogenous.' Indeed, if anything 'Cleared' areas ended up less ethnically homogeneous, because of the influx of lowland Scots landlords, tacksmen and grazing tenants. Magnusson (1997) writes that on Rum, a few years after the Clearances, the population consisted of the grazing tenant Dr Lachlan Maclean of Coll, and a mixture of native islanders and people who had been moved to Rum from Skye and Mull. Who knows (or cares) whether they were more or less 'ethnically homogeneous' than those who had lived there before? Dhmellor ( talk) 10:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
I take your point about 'a new system that is by and for the benefit of of those from a different culture' - that goes some way to convincing me that you may be right. On the other hand, the replacement population on Rum was not 95% English speaking - it was overwhelmingly Gaelic. But the nub of the UN definition is not the outcome but the motivation: '.....in order to render that area ethnically homogeneous.' I still see no evidence that racism (for want of a better word) was a signifiant motivating factor. The landowners' principal motivation was to make more money from their land. As for your interesting final question, judging from the way employers and landowners generally treated the 'working classes' in the 19th century, I suspect the answer could well be 'yes'! Dhmellor ( talk) 10:27, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
As you say, nothing can be proven, but the Clearances have been well researched and the overwhelming weight of historical opinion seems to be that landlords wanted to make more money out of sheep, rather than to get rid of people because of their ethnicity. I won't edit it out, though, because I think you make an interesting and stimulating point - it stimulated me into thinking about it anyway! And I'm certainly not going to disagree about upland Aberdeenshire with someone who stands on its border.... Dhmellor ( talk) 14:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Reply to Meowy ( talk · contribs): I have re-formatted some of your recent edits, although I have left the above phrase out for now, given its apparent unpopularity for reasons I can only surmise. We can come back to this later. Please note that quotations must, according to WP:MOS, be followed by the source. If it can't be provided they will have to go. The information about the gravestone is interesting - again a source would be useful. Ben Mac Dui 19:03, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
I'd love to see a published list of islands and their population densities, but we can't use a Wikipedia list as a reference. It would be easy to make a new popn. density list but I fear it would breach WP:OR as a source. Ben Mac Dui 18:43, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Maybe it's because I'm a relatively occasional Wikiperson, Ben, but I don't understand why we can't use a Wikipedia list as a reference. But if it helps, try this: [1]. If you cross-reference that with Haswell-Smith you will find the same result. Rum has one inhabitant for every 476 hectares, which makes it by some way the most sparsely populated Scottish island. Dhmellor ( talk) 20:13, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Although not policy, Wikipedia does not view wikis, including itself as reliable sources - see Wikipedia:Reliable source examples. yYour alternative ref will be acceptable for "one of the least...", but Rùm cannot be the most sparcely populated island, as there are Scottish islands with no population!. Finavon ( talk) 20:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
A sparsely populated or inhabited place has few people. A place with no people at all is not sparsely populated, it is unpopulated. (Sparse: occurring, growing, or settled at widely spaced intervals; not thick or dense. Latin sparsus, past participle of spargere, to scatter) Dhmellor ( talk) 09:46, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I've posted a note at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Routine calculations. It'll be interesting to see what they say. Ben Mac Dui 19:09, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
I've had a look at the 'NOR' page and I'll be interested to see what sort of response your question gets. I would certainly not dignify my routine calculation by calling it original research! However, I do take the other point, about wikis generally not being a reliable source - simply because they might happen to be accurate one day and inaccurate the next. Dhmellor ( talk) 06:51, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
For me, the infobox map captioned "Rùm shown within Scotland" usually fails to display (I see a blank white space). One time, apparently at random, it did show. I've noticed the same thing with a couple of similar articles ( Barra is one), so possibly there is some systematic error? 81.129.130.254 ( talk) 03:27, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I've never seen this myself. Suggest asking at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical). Ben Mac Dui 18:09, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm using IE8 and the same thing happens to me. 99.166.95.142 ( talk) 17:33, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Any further discussion
Since the root cause of this and other related problems seems to be the "Location Map" template, I propose that further discussion is carried out at Template_talk:Location_map#Map_does_not_work_properly_in_IE. 86.146.46.169 ( talk) 00:11, 8 January 2010 (UTC).
The original meaning of the word "forest" and the sense in which the word is used in Gaelic is "a place for hunting deer". Rum was "Rìoghachd na Forraiste Fiadhaich" (Clan Ranalad section) because it had deer - no doubt it also had woodland, but the Gaelic for that is "coille". It ceased to be a forest when the deer were eradicated rather than the deer becoming extinct because the "forest" (woodland) was destroyed (Potato section) - red deer are perfectly capable of living on moorland and treeless mountains, as can be seen by their success once reintroduced to the treeless island.
![]() | Rùm has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||
|
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | The route diagram template for this article can be found in Template:CalMac Mallaig ferries. |
It is the wildest and most repulsive of all the islands. John MacCulloch 1824.
The article was moved from Rum to Rùm following a request at WP:RM and the vote below.
The Ordnance Survey uses the spelling Rùm (with the grave accent) at all scales.
For the record. See Wikipedia:Naming policy poll There are cases when the official name of a location (generally cities) is different than what most English speakers call it. Current wikipedia policy is that the more common name should be used. ... The purpose of this poll is to reaffirm or change this policy. ... Agree 45 Change 18, Abstain 7, spoilt 5. -- Philip Baird Shearer 09:49, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
The following may or may not be spelling issues, but seem inconsistent in my read of the content. Fix or ignore the suggestions as deemed appropriate.
All now fixed. i-dhruim, Lewisian, Dibidil. Snalwibma ( talk) 08:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Many thanks folks! Ben MacDui Talk/ Walk 08:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd chosen the wording "would be pronounced" as that's a totally hypothetic form (and from a phonological pov nonsene) but I won't argue - but perhaps we should add an asterisk to show it's a hypothetical form? Slightly different point though, the article disagrees with itself - the info box gives rum-oy, the etymology section rõm-øy and given the discussion we've had recently about Skye, I have a feeling neither is spelled correctly. I'm glad to see OS is doing their usual botch job, adding the accent on Rùm was totally unnecessary... all Gaelic vowels before a final -m (an -ll, -rr, and -nn). Akerbeltz ( talk) 10:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
"rõm-øy" it now is in both cases per H-Smith. Pleasant though it is to imagine a time-travelling device to sort these things out, I suspect the derivation is likely to be an enduring mystery. I agree about the accent but lack the motivation to start another discussion. Re "would be pronounced", why do we not know how ì-dhruim is pronounced? Ben MacDui Talk/ Walk 18:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
It's a nice photo of the Mausoleum but surely it's misleading (or someone's joke?) to put it under prehistory when it was built in the early 20th century - although this fact is not mentioned in the article. -- JBellis ( talk) 09:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
ETHNIC CLEANSING I think that the rather casual comment regarding "ethnic cleansing" needs some citation. Also, by whom- was it the English, as implied? Or was it just economic reality being exercised by the Scottish landowners, as occured in the rest of the Highlands? DanBrodman ( talk) 08:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Reply- So you think that Rum's farmers were evicted because they were Gaels and not because the ("English speaking"- but also Gaelic?) landowner could get a better economic return (sadly, economic reality often means the enrichment of just a few) by selling Rum or using it for other purposes? I also think that drawing parallels with considerably larger and strategically located islands in the middle of northern Atlantic fishing grounds is not particularly relevant. Incidentally, I bet the descendants of these Rum farmers live a far better life in (probably) Canada and (maybe) America or Australia than they would if they still lived on Rum. Let's not romanticise serfdom. DB.
Ben you write 'The definition would seem to be "the planned deliberate removal from a specific territory, of persons of a particular ethnic group, by force or intimidation, in order to render that area ethnically homogenous." That is exactly what occurred.' Oh no it isn't! The motivation for the Highland Clearances is generally accepted to have been economic, not ethnic, and the population of the areas which were cleared, though much smaller, was no more or less 'ethnically homogeneous' after the Clearances than it was before it. Dhmellor ( talk) 14:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I entirely agree that the term 'clearance' is euphemistic in this context - it was an extraordinarily ruthless process, just as ethnic cleansing is. But the Clearances were not ethnic cleansing, because they were not carried out 'in order to render that area ethnically homogenous.' Indeed, if anything 'Cleared' areas ended up less ethnically homogeneous, because of the influx of lowland Scots landlords, tacksmen and grazing tenants. Magnusson (1997) writes that on Rum, a few years after the Clearances, the population consisted of the grazing tenant Dr Lachlan Maclean of Coll, and a mixture of native islanders and people who had been moved to Rum from Skye and Mull. Who knows (or cares) whether they were more or less 'ethnically homogeneous' than those who had lived there before? Dhmellor ( talk) 10:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
I take your point about 'a new system that is by and for the benefit of of those from a different culture' - that goes some way to convincing me that you may be right. On the other hand, the replacement population on Rum was not 95% English speaking - it was overwhelmingly Gaelic. But the nub of the UN definition is not the outcome but the motivation: '.....in order to render that area ethnically homogeneous.' I still see no evidence that racism (for want of a better word) was a signifiant motivating factor. The landowners' principal motivation was to make more money from their land. As for your interesting final question, judging from the way employers and landowners generally treated the 'working classes' in the 19th century, I suspect the answer could well be 'yes'! Dhmellor ( talk) 10:27, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
As you say, nothing can be proven, but the Clearances have been well researched and the overwhelming weight of historical opinion seems to be that landlords wanted to make more money out of sheep, rather than to get rid of people because of their ethnicity. I won't edit it out, though, because I think you make an interesting and stimulating point - it stimulated me into thinking about it anyway! And I'm certainly not going to disagree about upland Aberdeenshire with someone who stands on its border.... Dhmellor ( talk) 14:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Reply to Meowy ( talk · contribs): I have re-formatted some of your recent edits, although I have left the above phrase out for now, given its apparent unpopularity for reasons I can only surmise. We can come back to this later. Please note that quotations must, according to WP:MOS, be followed by the source. If it can't be provided they will have to go. The information about the gravestone is interesting - again a source would be useful. Ben Mac Dui 19:03, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
I'd love to see a published list of islands and their population densities, but we can't use a Wikipedia list as a reference. It would be easy to make a new popn. density list but I fear it would breach WP:OR as a source. Ben Mac Dui 18:43, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Maybe it's because I'm a relatively occasional Wikiperson, Ben, but I don't understand why we can't use a Wikipedia list as a reference. But if it helps, try this: [1]. If you cross-reference that with Haswell-Smith you will find the same result. Rum has one inhabitant for every 476 hectares, which makes it by some way the most sparsely populated Scottish island. Dhmellor ( talk) 20:13, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Although not policy, Wikipedia does not view wikis, including itself as reliable sources - see Wikipedia:Reliable source examples. yYour alternative ref will be acceptable for "one of the least...", but Rùm cannot be the most sparcely populated island, as there are Scottish islands with no population!. Finavon ( talk) 20:33, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
A sparsely populated or inhabited place has few people. A place with no people at all is not sparsely populated, it is unpopulated. (Sparse: occurring, growing, or settled at widely spaced intervals; not thick or dense. Latin sparsus, past participle of spargere, to scatter) Dhmellor ( talk) 09:46, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
I've posted a note at Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Routine calculations. It'll be interesting to see what they say. Ben Mac Dui 19:09, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
I've had a look at the 'NOR' page and I'll be interested to see what sort of response your question gets. I would certainly not dignify my routine calculation by calling it original research! However, I do take the other point, about wikis generally not being a reliable source - simply because they might happen to be accurate one day and inaccurate the next. Dhmellor ( talk) 06:51, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
For me, the infobox map captioned "Rùm shown within Scotland" usually fails to display (I see a blank white space). One time, apparently at random, it did show. I've noticed the same thing with a couple of similar articles ( Barra is one), so possibly there is some systematic error? 81.129.130.254 ( talk) 03:27, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I've never seen this myself. Suggest asking at Wikipedia:Village pump (technical). Ben Mac Dui 18:09, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm using IE8 and the same thing happens to me. 99.166.95.142 ( talk) 17:33, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Any further discussion
Since the root cause of this and other related problems seems to be the "Location Map" template, I propose that further discussion is carried out at Template_talk:Location_map#Map_does_not_work_properly_in_IE. 86.146.46.169 ( talk) 00:11, 8 January 2010 (UTC).
The original meaning of the word "forest" and the sense in which the word is used in Gaelic is "a place for hunting deer". Rum was "Rìoghachd na Forraiste Fiadhaich" (Clan Ranalad section) because it had deer - no doubt it also had woodland, but the Gaelic for that is "coille". It ceased to be a forest when the deer were eradicated rather than the deer becoming extinct because the "forest" (woodland) was destroyed (Potato section) - red deer are perfectly capable of living on moorland and treeless mountains, as can be seen by their success once reintroduced to the treeless island.