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http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Quran
I was looking to compile a list of selected quotes from the Qur'an dealing with various topics. Any edits... thoughts... suggestions...?
There are certainly many quotes from Qur'an on the topics mentioned in wikiquote.org, as well as other topics. Do you want me to add these quotes (my selections of these) or are you looking for sources? Kazeroon
I think it is fair to state that the standardisation of the Qur'an was met with approval across the Muslim World and there was no violence that ensued as should be expected when somebody starts claiming their copy of a religious text is correct. Isnt' that an amazing thing and worth wondernig about? If it is a fact, it should be pointed out to the reader. This is in sharp contrast to other standardisation attempts with other texts. The canonisation of the gospels was followed with a considerable blood letting of fellow Christians, i am told... can this be confirmed? Whether that is correct or not, in the Muslim world you can see the turmoil that Muslims with principles had with other issues... but nobody spoke on this count. Why?
The assasination of the Caliph Uthman of that time only occured, if my history lessons serve me correctly because one party wished for another man to do the job. But nobody ever disputed the copies of the Qur'an except along these party political lines. Those that question as the articles suggests, only have dubious claims to support it.
What do you think?
The number 19 miracle has been written off by almost ALL Muslims. IT IS A HOAX. However, there is another more serious and simple contender that ANYONE CAN CHECK. 1) Add the Chapter number of each Surah and record the total (6555) 2) Add the verses in the Qur'an (6236) 3) Now have the Surah Number added to its respective verses (so 1+7 in first row 2+286 in 2nd, etc.). Odd answers keep in one column, and Even in others. 4) The odd answers' total will be 6555 and the even will be 6236.
Now i ask anybody to find a single person that has ever existed who can deliberately ensure that their book's words and chapter numbers combine to make the same effect. If they do, can it have the same literary effect as the Qur'an, which is i would ask you to think rationally, a miracle in itself? Who designed the Qur'an? Does this interesting fact merit mentioning?
I only say this for a person who wishes to give the benefit of the doubt and will give a fair hearing to anyone.
-- 62.252.192.5 19:24, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I notice that a non-Muslim evangelist has clearly been doing some editing. "Analogous to Creation Science", my foot! As I explain, the analogy runs exactly opposite, whether right or wrong.
I notice that 192.70.252.32 removed the following text:
BEGIN MISSING TEXT
This paragraph was written by someone who has a fleeting knowledge of the history of Qur'an. The information it provides is next to useless.
Islamic scholars, on the other hand, have long shown that this is not quite the case. Just as higher biblical criticism revolutionzed Judaism and Christianity by calling into question long held assumptions about the origins of the Bible, similar studies have done the same for the Qur'an. Scholars of Islamic religious literature now agree that much of the Qur'an is a modified composite based on the Tanakh [Hebrew Bible] and the New Testament of the Christian Bible. It is recognized that many of the pious claims about its composition and content are not historically supportable.
END MISSING TEXT
and replaced it with claims that the Qur'an has never been changed. It's customary to explain large changes to the text with a note in the "summary" field on the edit form, or preferably a detailed explanation of one's reasoning in the talk page, particularly on subjects that may be controversial. -- Brion VIBBER 13:34 Aug 7, 2002 (PDT)
I just noticed this and was about to restore it. I am putting this text back in the main article until some reasonable justification is given for its removal. Danny PS. Maverick beat me to it. :-) Danny
To Anon; When you hit save on the bottom of a page you are promising that the material you saved is not covered by others copyrights. I checked your additions and nearly every sentence was found on one or another website. Example: [1]. The additions also did not conform to our policy of NPOV and deleting text without any explanation is not looked on lightly around here. With that said, your help is much needed and requested to help with these entries; just make sure you follow our policies and guidelines please. -- mav
I'm no expert on Islam, but I remember reading that when an edition Qur'an (or Koran or whatever) is published, it is never simply called "the Qur'an." It is always titled "The Holy Qur'an" or "The Glorious Qur'an" or "The Noble Qur'an" or some other defining adjective. If this is a fact, then it deserves to be mentioned in the entry. Could someone verify this? Modemac
It is not required. And there are no other Recitations with which it might be confused. Prater 17:18, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for adding "The Koran Interpreted". I recall hearing that scholars consider the Koran untranslatable, because the map of the world provided by Arabic is too dissimilar to the map of the world provided by other languages. Hence, the Koran cannot be properly understood in translation.
As a member of the Unification Church, whose living founder speaks mostly in Korean, I am familiar with issues deriving from translation problems. -- Ed Poor
I changed the wording to interpretive translation as I think that more correctly says what is desired. I also changed wording to make it more NPOV. I hope I didn't step on anybody's toes.
I would like to see an outline of the Koran that describes in some detain what it contains. Ezra Wax
The mathematical thing is an invention of a modern cult and doesn't reflect the truth
I deleted Non-Muslims hold that Muhammad was merely taking older religious documents and stories and embellishing them.
--Sorry, but if you want to report an opinion you have to identify whose opinion it is. At least refer to a scholar who holds this opinion. "Non-Muslims" is too broad and lazy. It is also wrong, because the vast majority of non-Muslims have no clue and no opinion on this subject. --
zero 14:07, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Since the 1970s, many muslims have started to believe in a third mechnism preservation built into the Qur'an in the form of a mathematical structure. It seems the suras, the verses, the words, the number of certain letters, the number of words from the same root, the number and variety of divine names, and many other elements may all be intricately interwoven with comprehensive mathematical coding based around the geometrical value of the Arabic word "Wahad" (one).
-- I wonder whether this passage was added by someone who believes in this "mathematical structure" or by someone who just happened to read about it. I suspect the latter, because it is not a good report. Actually the supposed features of the word Wahad are but one of dozens of supposed features. The essence of the theory is that there are patterns involving the number 19 which cannot be explained by chance. This was proposed by an American Muslim Rashid Khalifa who wrote several books about it. I'd be surprised if it is believed by more than a tiny fraction of Muslims since Khalifa had to modify the text to get his patterns to work, including the removal of two whole verses. Khalifa also claimed that the patterns proved that he himself was the next great prophet after Abraham and Moses. I propose to replace this passage by a short rewritten paragraph at the end of the article, but will wait for a week or two to see if there are any objections. --
zero 07:18, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)
It is quite true that 'Qur'ans' have been found that differ from the orthodox version. On the other hand, there are some very early Qur'ans that are identical. Unfortunatly neither exist in sufficient numbers to prove or refute the claim that the current version is identical with the first Qur'an. There may have been 'heretical' variations over the centuries.
By the way, Islam and Muslim should be capitalised. Anjouli 12:33, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Zeimusu writes:
I find this phrase hard to understand:
this practice simply destroyed variations that had been original to the text
Is it indicating that some believe there were variations in the 7th century texts (or even in the recitals of the Prophet) or does it refer to allegeded variations in later copies? I vote that this paragraph be rewritten to say
As with other ancient texts, no manuscript exists so we cannot know if the current accepted version is identical to that recited by the Prophet, however most Islamic scholars believe that the text has not changed substantially since it was first written down. The practice of destroying copies that deviate from the accepted version, while aimed at preserving the integrity of the text, makes a historical analysis of textural variations difficult or impossible."
(But I write this after a highly non-islamic glass of wine and I'm not really happy with the phrasing)
Zeimusu 15:22, 2004 May 6 (UTC)
Added note indicating this.
Just how many verses are there? 6236 according to [2] and [3]; 6666 according to [4]; 6,616 according to [5]. Does anyone know an authoritative answer? - Mustafaa 18:19, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The Shiite sources are similar to those of Sunni sources in regards to the number of verses. Although there are some variations, they cluster around 6,200 to 6,240. The most commonly accepted number is 6,236 (as stated above), and it is the number quoted by the Kufi scribes (which in turn name Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib as their source or one of their sources). The reason for differences in the number verses is that Qur'an was revealed verbally to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and he in turn recited it to his followers. One of the rules of Qur'anic recital is Waqf, which requires or recommends the reciter to stop at the end of certain words within a verse. Since Waqf can take place in the middle of a verse, some scribes have considered certain instances of Waqf to indicate the end of a verse (thus resulting in two verses), while others decided that those stops were simply an instance of Waqf in the middle of a verse (resulting in one verse). For this reason there is a much tighter agreement on the total number of words in Qur'an: 77,436 to 77,439. My source for this information is a Farsi book titled History of Qur'an (Tarikh-e Qur'an) by Dr. Mahmood Ramiar, 1983, Tehran, Iran. The book seems to be well researched with extensive use of traditional (Sunny and Shiite) sources.
The article mentions "Qur'an graveyards" but I can't find a single reference on the Internet. Where can I read more? — Hippietrail 01:54, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I am working on so many other pages that I don't really have the time or energy to fight on this one, BUT ... I must say that it reads like an apology for an extremely conservative and parochial position. Qur'an perfect and complete? -- even though it was compiled by humans? From variant traditions? Even though early Muslim commentators speak of lost verses, dropped verses? Even though verses contradict each other? Even though there are a number of words in the Koran whose meaning is unclear?
Even though I'm not a Muslim, it seems to me that it would be perfectly possible to believe that the Qur'an is an imperfect human creation and still be a good Muslim. Just so, many Christians believe that the Bible is human creation but remain Christians. To INSIST that all Muslims must reject any historical or textual criticism is certainly a popular position, I'll admit that ... but to insist on it in a Wikipedia article is to turn the article into a sectarian tract.
If there's one thing in Islam that appeals to me, it's Muhammed's denunciation of idolatry. Not as it's trivially enforced today, but as a protest against relying on man-made things and ignoring the God that's "as close as your jugular vein". Isn't the exaggerated reverence for a human-created book idolatry?
Zora 04:30, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This "extremely conservative and parochial position" is at the very root of Islam. To believe the Qur'an is a human creation would amount to claiming Muhammad was lying or mistaken when he claimed to have received a message from God; to believe that flaws have been introduced by humans would imply the need for further revelation, would seem to contradict several passages in the Qur'an itself, and would involve rather deep-rooted suspicion of the original followers (the sahaba), since we know for certain the Qur'anic text has not changed since Uthman's time. You may believe that Muslims should be more open-minded about these possibilities; however, you would be hard-pressed to find Muslims, no matter how "liberal", who would agree. Its interpretation, into which human error can enter quite naturally, is one thing; its authorship, quite another.
The Christianity analogy is flawed in one crucial respect, by the way; much of the Bible explicitly claims to have been written by humans (Luke or Paul, for instance), and when God is said to speak, he is explicitly quoted. In the Qur'an, God regularly speaks in the first person, addressing the Prophet. - Mustafaa 10:37, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think it would be interesting to compare the usage of the Qur'an with other texts i.e. Christians have multiple Study Bibles. Would one find a counterpart of the Gideon's Association putting copies in hotel rooms in Moslem countries? Do most Moslem families own a personal copy, or do most Moslems go to a Mosque to read it?
Also, Sikh's hold the word of their Guru's in a sacred book which is kept on display and well cared for because the book itself is seen as sacred. Does anyone know if it's similar in Islam? For example, is defacing a copy of the Qur'an a harsh insult? Would a student of the Qur'an feel uncomfortable underlining, highlighting or writing in the margins in their copies?
Moreover, I would imagine that there are more copies of the Bible than people in the world, would it be comparable with the Qur'an, with every home containing multiple copies, every Mosque containing more than enough copies for parishioners, etc.? ----
Could be an interesting topic for expansion. Certainly one would never do anything like "underlining, highlighting or writing in the margins in their copies"; indeed, you aren't supposed to touch the book unless you've performed wudu first. - Mustafaa 10:24, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I went on vacation to Iran and yes, they do have Qur'ans in each hotel room(at least in the ones I checked). Most Muslims would have an Arabic-only Qur'an, with translations and such at the Mosque.
Defacing the Qur'an has no actual punishment; I suppose it is up to God to decide. Although it is quite disrespectful. And I think that the original Arabic should not be highlighted but the translations and such are allowed to be.
Yes.
Err, I've never heard of 'Hafiz' being tranlsated as memorizer. I mean, the phrase 'Allah Hafiz', which is very prevailant in Indian cultures as a 'goodbye' greeting (similar to Ma'salaam in Libya or Wa'Salaam in Saudi Arabia) means 'Allah (God) protect [you]'. No?
This is correct. They mean the same: Allah Hafiz is "Allah preserve you", and a memorizer is someone who has preserved the Qur'an in his head. - Mustafaa 10:22, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
As far as I know of, Al-Qur'an is considered sacred only because it has Allah word in it. If the wording is wipe out, it is just a piece of paper. It is something like if you have a picture of your mother, you do not want to step on it. However, those who want to touch it must perform wudu to clean themselves spiritually; and non-muslim is forbidden to touch it (because they cannot perform wudu and thus forever not spiritually clean. (In order to perform wudu one have to be a muslim, get it..)
Writing on it is like writing on one's mother picture, can be done if it in for some good purpose, i.e. reminder, otherwise, it is the intent that is counted.
Al-Qur'an was written within the life time of companions of Muhammad. If any variation is introduced, I do not think any one of them worthy a grain of salt would keep quiet. They are all, willing to die for Allah. Whom am I to say what those companions already unanimiously agreed. Yosri 11:37, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Good analogy. - Mustafaa 12:31, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
shouldn't the arabic (alphabet) version of the name be "al-qur'an" (if not "al-qur'an al-karim") rather than simply "qur'an" (afaik, without the article the word simply means "lecture", and only the definite article makes it "The Lecture", similar to "a book" vs, "The Bible") dab 09:00, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Also, according to WP policy, the article should be at Quran rather than Qur'an: while the latter is more precise, it is not the more common variant in English. Similarly, we would have to have Sa`udi, Sa`udi `Arabia rather than Saudi, Saudi Arabia. dab 12:10, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Another question. I have noticed that in the arabic name the alif of the article carries a hamza on top. I have learned just one year of Arabic, but I think this should never happen (except in the Iraqi flag, were the alif in Allah carries a hamza, I don't know why). Anybody with more auctoritas to agree or disagree please? I don't dare to correct it because I'm not sure, thanks -- ArinArin 14:14, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I uploaded the original text (in Unicode) to Wikisource:Al-Qur’ân al-Karîm. Maybe we can include an additional wikisource link to it. (it should be moved to the unicode-arabic title, though) dab 09:21, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There are loads of vocalized Arabic texts of the Qur'an online (eg http://www.holyquran.net/quran/index.html); what's wrong with those? - Mustafaa 10:11, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Maybe I am wrong, and I was just unable to find them. The example you give, however, I cannot display. (what format is it?). If you have a clean, unicode, vocalized etext, I would be thankful if you uploaded it to Wikisource! dab 10:40, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
http://www.lib.umich.edu/area/Near.East/QuranKarim11192002Unicode.html has vocalized Unicode, but suffering from the same orthographic problem. I don't have a digital dictionary; the spellings with superscript-alif's are for the most part used only in the Qur'an and not in modern documents... - Mustafaa 14:10, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In
[8], I found one transliteration that might mislead, between:
It seems this transliteration occur in every verses contain them.
I suggest, based on similar pronounciation with ʾulā, that the writing is yuʾminūna instead (ʾ for representing dead hamza/alif, ʿ for representing ʿayn). - DiN 01:42, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC+1)
Of couse, hamza should be ʾ. (what is a dead hamza?) Is the spelling consistent, or is this just an error in the text? dab 08:48, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Um, I assume this project is to be shared when finished? Would be nice to get it up at Project Gutenberg (probably as an HTML text with UTF-8 specified). Also, if you want to work on other texts, Distributed Proofreaders Europe is a Unicode-compliant proofreading site. They're doing their first project in Arabic script (in Urdu, really, the poems of Iqbal) and it would be nice if other projects followed. Zora 13:58, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm trying to get a Wikipedia entry done on each sura; anyone want to participate? - Mustafaa 11:57, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Do we really need this (PBUH) business? It doesn't seem very neutral or encyclopaedic (the Muhammad article does without it. And we don't say "his Holiness" every time we mention a pope either, to accomodate the Catholics). dab 14:42, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This article needs complete revision, at least the first half. It reads like written by an apologist. OneGuy 16:33, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
-- Remove the paragraph about the Bible. That was totally irrelevant here. OneGuy 17:40, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
-- There is no dispute on the superiority of various dialects ( ahruf) that the Qur'an was being recited, because the dialects use by Muhammad (PBUH) is the original one, and should be the one followed. The dispute is on localised reading at various location outside Mecca & Medina, because the people there have diferent dialects. Yosri 17:46, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Some conflicting questions about this Samrkund manuscript.
This is a complete Qur'an.
There are no vowel or diacritical marks here. We know for sure that Hajjaj bin Yousef introduced vowel marks in written Qur'ans. Hajjaj died in June 714. This would suggest (perhaps) that this manuscript was written before 714.
The problem is that the manuscript is in Kufic script. Kufic script was developed in Kufa, Iraq. Ali ibn Talib (who came after Uthman) made Kufa his capital. This then can't be Uthmanic manuscript for sure.
When exactly was Kufic script developed? I have seen Christian writers (like Jay Smith) claim that Kufic script was developed way latter during Abbasid (750 CE) caliphate. His only argument was that the script appears on the coins during Abbasid caliphate. But just because the script appears on Abbasid coins doesn't mean it didn't exist before that. Anyone knows exact date when the Kufic script was used first? If it developed before 750, then Samrkund manuscript is probably older than 750, since it does not have vowel marks, and given that Hajjaj who introduced vowel marks died in 714, this manuscript could be older than even 714. OneGuy 20:37, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Too add something here, Hajjaj bin Yousef (d. 714) was the governor of Kufa (where Kufic script developed). Since Hajjaj introduced vowels into the Qur'an, how is it possible that Samarkand manuscript is written in Kufic script (home of hajjaj) but yet it doesn't have vowels and diacritical marks? The manuscript has to be older than Hajjaj, somewhere between Ali's Caliphate and the death of Hajjaj in 714.
I have not seen any scientific dating done on this manuscript. Some scholars have only speculated that Kufic script appears on Abbasid coins after 750, so the manuscript must be 750 or older. This cannot be right. Umayyad Caliphate ruled from Syria, so that's why we don't see Kufic script before 750 on coins. This doesn't mean that the script didn't exist in Kufa (Iraq) before 750. If some scientists date this manuscript, it could put an end to Wansbrough theory for sure.
That part is factually incorrect. The article claims that liberal movements in Islam implicitly or explicitly question the uncreateded Qur'an when they "question the continuing applicability and validity of Islamic law."
First, let me explain this. Most Islamic scholars accept that parts of the Qur'an deals with specific situation during the time of Muhammad (i.e locked in time). Does that contradict that the Qur'an is eternal and uncreated? No, this can be explained easily by something like this: God knew from eternity what will happen during the time of Muhammad; thus, even though parts of the Qur'an deal specifically with the situation at the time of Muhammad, it could still be eternal and uncreated (since God always knew what was going to happen at that time and what "revelation" will be given in response).
Given that background, now it's easy to understand that you can be a "liberal Muslim" and interpret ALL Islamic law as being relevant ONLY at the time of Muhammad, but yet believe that the Qur'an is eternal word of God. A "liberal Muslim" doesn't have to deny the Qur'an being uncreated word of God to be a "liberal Muslim."
Any comments on that? OneGuy 13:31, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I've added a fairly long but by no means comprehensive section on some stylistic features of the Qur'an; overview and comments would be welcome. Thanks! - Mustafaa 00:38, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Someone coming from an anonymous IP added references to the Apocrypha and Didache, which I changed slightly to references to Bible and Torah, Apocrypha and Midrash, which is somewhat more correct, I believe. Same person also deleted link to audio recordings of Qur'an recitals and substituted another one. I restored the original link, without removing the addition. I'm not at all sure what the differences between the links are. Would appreciate some input from others more knowledgeable in this area. I also deleted a website about Qur'anic views of the Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity, as that seemed somewhat off the main topic. Might be appropriate for another article.
I intend to work on this article sometime, but I'm still READING. Stack of books next to the bed ... Zora 08:12, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Peace --
These appeals early on to Torah and Gospel citations might give the impression that Muslims accept the contemporary versions of these books as divine revelation, which is not true. We ***respect*** them, but regard them (as the Qur'an instructs) as having been tampered with by human beings.
The whole question of whether a given Torah or Gospel passage foretells the coming of Muhammad (pbuh) or the revelation of the Qur'an is a controversial one, and it seems to me a bit of a distraction here, early on in the piece. Accordingly, I've edited it out, though I'm certainly open to discussion about why these refs belong in the article. BrandonYusufToropov 12:06, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I deleted this:
"A Qur'an created by God for a particular context might also account for differences between the Bible without requiring humans to have corrupted divine texts."
... because it is, I think, a position no qualified Islamic scholar would actually support. The Qur'an clearly holds that the religious scriptures of Christians and Jews were corrupted by human influence. A non-Muslim would be free to disagree on this point, of course, but even a "liberal" Muslim, I think, would not attempt to "explain away" such passages as 2:59, 2:78-79, 3:78, 3:187, and 5:13.
2:106 has been interpreted as an explanation for the phenomenon of God allowing change and abrogation of Christian and Jewish scriptures. This is a controversial matter, of course.
When I clicked on that link, I got a lot of warning messages and then an error message. When I went in through Google, it was fine. But the link, as reproduced below, looks exactly the same.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/textcriticism.html
I'm not sure that this is a very GOOD link, once reached. It has a mean-spirited, nyah-nyah-nyah air to it. It focuses heavily on attacking the Christian scriptures -- which, as I'm a Buddhist, seems somewhat beside the point.
The links really do need to be evaluated and sorted into categories. Zora 13:41, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think someone added some external links in Miscellaneous -- I didn't remember seeing them previously. I looked at them briefly, then moved two of them to Tafsir.
The links section is going to have to be watched carefully, because every zealot with a favorite teacher is going to want to add his/her link. I do think that only the teachers with the larger followings should be featured in the links, not marginal crackpots. The problem is that, as a non-Muslim, I have NO IDEA who's mainstream and who's a crackpot. This is where we need even-handed, judicious Muslim editors. Zora 20:35, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I fussed with the links, and added one book to the reading list. Are the references OK now? Zora 11:29, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
An anonymous editor just added, and I just removed, the following link:
While the "Qur'an viewer" touted in the site can be downloaded for free, that seems to be a loss-leader for various other programs that are available only by purchase. Given that e-books of the Qur'an are available for free from other sites, I don't see any reason to include this link. But I'm laying out the reasons for my decision here in case anyone wants to argue the point. Zora 22:28, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I just checked it. The software was free, but there were also many free translations downloadable from this page of the site:
http://www.divineislam.co.uk/DivineIslam/Software/Quran_Translations/
Such as,
(Muhammad Asad -- well known Jewish convert but has not article on wiki yet? -- his translation that is linked from the article is poorly formatted and appears incomplete; though the commentary part is missing even on the software page apparently).
All these were free. Are they available on other site? If not, then this part makes it worth giving it a link.
Plus, free translations in many other languages were on the page (French, Spanish, Urdu, Chinese, Malay, Indonesian, Albanian, Azerbaijani, Bosnian, Japanese, Korean, German, Dutch, Czech Portuguese, Finnish, Hausa, Somali, Malayalam, Maranao, Tamil, Thai, Russian, Turkish, Swahili) OneGuy 11:28, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I don't see the point of linking to zillions of qur'an translations in all these languages. If I wanted to find such a translation, I'd just google. Sure, we van link to a couple of English translations, but linking to freeware? Probably a Windows binary (platform bias)? I don't see the point. This is going too far in the direction of 'link repository' and has no direct relevance to the article. [[User:Dbachmann| dab ( T) ]] 11:47, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Again, notifying folks that I deleted a picture of a Qur'an translation put up by Hoshie. One, it didn't fit well. Two, it was a full-face picture of a particular translation, so that it seemed as if Wikipedia were recommending that particular translation. A picture of a stack of translations would work better. I'd take one, but I don't have a digital camera ... Zora 00:57, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
P.S. If we're going to have pictures, surely pictures of beautifully calligraphed and decorated Qur'ans would be apropos. Perhaps even a breakout article on history of Qur'an calligraphy and decoration ... Surely it wouldn't be too hard to get permission to open-source a photo of one of the celebrated Qur'ans in some of the major collections. Zora 01:00, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The article says, "Today seven canonical readings of the Qur'an and several uncanonical exist" and the list has names of,
Ibn Kathir of Makka (120/737) cannot be the same Ibn Kathir who has article on wiki. That Ibn Kathir was born in 1301. Changed the link to Ibn Kathir of Makka OneGuy
I've added a section on parts and subdivisions. One page says that the hizb division is used only in the Arab world and the ruku' division only in South Asia -- if someone can confirm this, it would be good to add that information. Joriki 06:42, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A number of anonymous IPs (I suspect website owners plugging their own websites) have added three (?) external links during the last day. I'm starting to wonder just HOW MANY Qur'an sites there are on the web. I'm also beginning to doubt my ability to distinguish between the really good ones and the hack jobs. I hope some of the other editors will scan all the websites and post some input here. Just how big do we want the list to be and what criteria do we use to judge their usefulness? Zora 20:21, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Zain 01:28, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I added a text there, which was removed by Grenavitar requiring better facts and npov. I think npov is not the issue here, but sources. So I added references and also the verses from the Qur'an. Be aware that my goal is just to add evidence that criticism against the Qur'an (in the context of the Qur'ans accusations of "textual errors" in the bible) has a broader scope then just looking at it from the angle of "Higher biblical criticism" as the paragraph states it. Where biblical history is backed up by "secular" sources there is clearly more to it. The 3 (or 4 if you like) examples I deliver are not related to historical criticism against the Qur'an in general, but very specific related to where the "cause" of the discrepancy threatens to be attributed to "textual corruption" of the Bible, where this apparently is not true. — Fjodorii 10:44, 2005 Jan 24 (UTC)
The article lists Mary as a prophet of Islam. This is not correct. Prophethood is restricted to men in Islam. Prater 13:26, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Right you are. I have revised to fix this error. BrandonYusufToropov 21:31, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
We now have a fairly large selection of links to various Islamic websites (Qur'an translations, recitations, ulm, tafsir). I have NO idea whether these sites are managed by respected scholars and mainstream organizations, or whether they're out-of-the-mainstream or kooky. I'm simply not knowledgeable enough. I would really appreciate if the Muslim editors could check the links and prune any strange ones. Zora 06:10, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
BrandonYusufToropov linked to a page on Tafsir that is one of the chapter of a book Ulum al Qur'an that is already linked . Kind of redundant OneGuy
I tweaked this list a little -- but Oneguy, is the duplicate link we want to delete under the heading Tafsir or Ulm right now? Please let me know, thanks. BrandonYusufToropov 12:56, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Link to Ulum al Qur'an cannot be deleted because that's the complete book. Maybe duplicate in this case is not a problem. One links to the exact chapter in the book that deals with Tafsir, so it's not exact duplicate. This should be left as at it is OneGuy 13:22, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There is a page at Quran slavery, that has nothing linking to it, and is not very wikified, with only a couple of edits. Someone who knows more should look into it and decide what to do with it -- Jacobolus 20:09, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It seems to have been corrected, now has quotes from parts of the Qur'an talking about slavery
-- usayd 21:50, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Quran
I was looking to compile a list of selected quotes from the Qur'an dealing with various topics. Any edits... thoughts... suggestions...?
There are certainly many quotes from Qur'an on the topics mentioned in wikiquote.org, as well as other topics. Do you want me to add these quotes (my selections of these) or are you looking for sources? Kazeroon
I think it is fair to state that the standardisation of the Qur'an was met with approval across the Muslim World and there was no violence that ensued as should be expected when somebody starts claiming their copy of a religious text is correct. Isnt' that an amazing thing and worth wondernig about? If it is a fact, it should be pointed out to the reader. This is in sharp contrast to other standardisation attempts with other texts. The canonisation of the gospels was followed with a considerable blood letting of fellow Christians, i am told... can this be confirmed? Whether that is correct or not, in the Muslim world you can see the turmoil that Muslims with principles had with other issues... but nobody spoke on this count. Why?
The assasination of the Caliph Uthman of that time only occured, if my history lessons serve me correctly because one party wished for another man to do the job. But nobody ever disputed the copies of the Qur'an except along these party political lines. Those that question as the articles suggests, only have dubious claims to support it.
What do you think?
The number 19 miracle has been written off by almost ALL Muslims. IT IS A HOAX. However, there is another more serious and simple contender that ANYONE CAN CHECK. 1) Add the Chapter number of each Surah and record the total (6555) 2) Add the verses in the Qur'an (6236) 3) Now have the Surah Number added to its respective verses (so 1+7 in first row 2+286 in 2nd, etc.). Odd answers keep in one column, and Even in others. 4) The odd answers' total will be 6555 and the even will be 6236.
Now i ask anybody to find a single person that has ever existed who can deliberately ensure that their book's words and chapter numbers combine to make the same effect. If they do, can it have the same literary effect as the Qur'an, which is i would ask you to think rationally, a miracle in itself? Who designed the Qur'an? Does this interesting fact merit mentioning?
I only say this for a person who wishes to give the benefit of the doubt and will give a fair hearing to anyone.
-- 62.252.192.5 19:24, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I notice that a non-Muslim evangelist has clearly been doing some editing. "Analogous to Creation Science", my foot! As I explain, the analogy runs exactly opposite, whether right or wrong.
I notice that 192.70.252.32 removed the following text:
BEGIN MISSING TEXT
This paragraph was written by someone who has a fleeting knowledge of the history of Qur'an. The information it provides is next to useless.
Islamic scholars, on the other hand, have long shown that this is not quite the case. Just as higher biblical criticism revolutionzed Judaism and Christianity by calling into question long held assumptions about the origins of the Bible, similar studies have done the same for the Qur'an. Scholars of Islamic religious literature now agree that much of the Qur'an is a modified composite based on the Tanakh [Hebrew Bible] and the New Testament of the Christian Bible. It is recognized that many of the pious claims about its composition and content are not historically supportable.
END MISSING TEXT
and replaced it with claims that the Qur'an has never been changed. It's customary to explain large changes to the text with a note in the "summary" field on the edit form, or preferably a detailed explanation of one's reasoning in the talk page, particularly on subjects that may be controversial. -- Brion VIBBER 13:34 Aug 7, 2002 (PDT)
I just noticed this and was about to restore it. I am putting this text back in the main article until some reasonable justification is given for its removal. Danny PS. Maverick beat me to it. :-) Danny
To Anon; When you hit save on the bottom of a page you are promising that the material you saved is not covered by others copyrights. I checked your additions and nearly every sentence was found on one or another website. Example: [1]. The additions also did not conform to our policy of NPOV and deleting text without any explanation is not looked on lightly around here. With that said, your help is much needed and requested to help with these entries; just make sure you follow our policies and guidelines please. -- mav
I'm no expert on Islam, but I remember reading that when an edition Qur'an (or Koran or whatever) is published, it is never simply called "the Qur'an." It is always titled "The Holy Qur'an" or "The Glorious Qur'an" or "The Noble Qur'an" or some other defining adjective. If this is a fact, then it deserves to be mentioned in the entry. Could someone verify this? Modemac
It is not required. And there are no other Recitations with which it might be confused. Prater 17:18, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for adding "The Koran Interpreted". I recall hearing that scholars consider the Koran untranslatable, because the map of the world provided by Arabic is too dissimilar to the map of the world provided by other languages. Hence, the Koran cannot be properly understood in translation.
As a member of the Unification Church, whose living founder speaks mostly in Korean, I am familiar with issues deriving from translation problems. -- Ed Poor
I changed the wording to interpretive translation as I think that more correctly says what is desired. I also changed wording to make it more NPOV. I hope I didn't step on anybody's toes.
I would like to see an outline of the Koran that describes in some detain what it contains. Ezra Wax
The mathematical thing is an invention of a modern cult and doesn't reflect the truth
I deleted Non-Muslims hold that Muhammad was merely taking older religious documents and stories and embellishing them.
--Sorry, but if you want to report an opinion you have to identify whose opinion it is. At least refer to a scholar who holds this opinion. "Non-Muslims" is too broad and lazy. It is also wrong, because the vast majority of non-Muslims have no clue and no opinion on this subject. --
zero 14:07, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Since the 1970s, many muslims have started to believe in a third mechnism preservation built into the Qur'an in the form of a mathematical structure. It seems the suras, the verses, the words, the number of certain letters, the number of words from the same root, the number and variety of divine names, and many other elements may all be intricately interwoven with comprehensive mathematical coding based around the geometrical value of the Arabic word "Wahad" (one).
-- I wonder whether this passage was added by someone who believes in this "mathematical structure" or by someone who just happened to read about it. I suspect the latter, because it is not a good report. Actually the supposed features of the word Wahad are but one of dozens of supposed features. The essence of the theory is that there are patterns involving the number 19 which cannot be explained by chance. This was proposed by an American Muslim Rashid Khalifa who wrote several books about it. I'd be surprised if it is believed by more than a tiny fraction of Muslims since Khalifa had to modify the text to get his patterns to work, including the removal of two whole verses. Khalifa also claimed that the patterns proved that he himself was the next great prophet after Abraham and Moses. I propose to replace this passage by a short rewritten paragraph at the end of the article, but will wait for a week or two to see if there are any objections. --
zero 07:18, 12 Oct 2003 (UTC)
It is quite true that 'Qur'ans' have been found that differ from the orthodox version. On the other hand, there are some very early Qur'ans that are identical. Unfortunatly neither exist in sufficient numbers to prove or refute the claim that the current version is identical with the first Qur'an. There may have been 'heretical' variations over the centuries.
By the way, Islam and Muslim should be capitalised. Anjouli 12:33, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Zeimusu writes:
I find this phrase hard to understand:
this practice simply destroyed variations that had been original to the text
Is it indicating that some believe there were variations in the 7th century texts (or even in the recitals of the Prophet) or does it refer to allegeded variations in later copies? I vote that this paragraph be rewritten to say
As with other ancient texts, no manuscript exists so we cannot know if the current accepted version is identical to that recited by the Prophet, however most Islamic scholars believe that the text has not changed substantially since it was first written down. The practice of destroying copies that deviate from the accepted version, while aimed at preserving the integrity of the text, makes a historical analysis of textural variations difficult or impossible."
(But I write this after a highly non-islamic glass of wine and I'm not really happy with the phrasing)
Zeimusu 15:22, 2004 May 6 (UTC)
Added note indicating this.
Just how many verses are there? 6236 according to [2] and [3]; 6666 according to [4]; 6,616 according to [5]. Does anyone know an authoritative answer? - Mustafaa 18:19, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The Shiite sources are similar to those of Sunni sources in regards to the number of verses. Although there are some variations, they cluster around 6,200 to 6,240. The most commonly accepted number is 6,236 (as stated above), and it is the number quoted by the Kufi scribes (which in turn name Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib as their source or one of their sources). The reason for differences in the number verses is that Qur'an was revealed verbally to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and he in turn recited it to his followers. One of the rules of Qur'anic recital is Waqf, which requires or recommends the reciter to stop at the end of certain words within a verse. Since Waqf can take place in the middle of a verse, some scribes have considered certain instances of Waqf to indicate the end of a verse (thus resulting in two verses), while others decided that those stops were simply an instance of Waqf in the middle of a verse (resulting in one verse). For this reason there is a much tighter agreement on the total number of words in Qur'an: 77,436 to 77,439. My source for this information is a Farsi book titled History of Qur'an (Tarikh-e Qur'an) by Dr. Mahmood Ramiar, 1983, Tehran, Iran. The book seems to be well researched with extensive use of traditional (Sunny and Shiite) sources.
The article mentions "Qur'an graveyards" but I can't find a single reference on the Internet. Where can I read more? — Hippietrail 01:54, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I am working on so many other pages that I don't really have the time or energy to fight on this one, BUT ... I must say that it reads like an apology for an extremely conservative and parochial position. Qur'an perfect and complete? -- even though it was compiled by humans? From variant traditions? Even though early Muslim commentators speak of lost verses, dropped verses? Even though verses contradict each other? Even though there are a number of words in the Koran whose meaning is unclear?
Even though I'm not a Muslim, it seems to me that it would be perfectly possible to believe that the Qur'an is an imperfect human creation and still be a good Muslim. Just so, many Christians believe that the Bible is human creation but remain Christians. To INSIST that all Muslims must reject any historical or textual criticism is certainly a popular position, I'll admit that ... but to insist on it in a Wikipedia article is to turn the article into a sectarian tract.
If there's one thing in Islam that appeals to me, it's Muhammed's denunciation of idolatry. Not as it's trivially enforced today, but as a protest against relying on man-made things and ignoring the God that's "as close as your jugular vein". Isn't the exaggerated reverence for a human-created book idolatry?
Zora 04:30, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
This "extremely conservative and parochial position" is at the very root of Islam. To believe the Qur'an is a human creation would amount to claiming Muhammad was lying or mistaken when he claimed to have received a message from God; to believe that flaws have been introduced by humans would imply the need for further revelation, would seem to contradict several passages in the Qur'an itself, and would involve rather deep-rooted suspicion of the original followers (the sahaba), since we know for certain the Qur'anic text has not changed since Uthman's time. You may believe that Muslims should be more open-minded about these possibilities; however, you would be hard-pressed to find Muslims, no matter how "liberal", who would agree. Its interpretation, into which human error can enter quite naturally, is one thing; its authorship, quite another.
The Christianity analogy is flawed in one crucial respect, by the way; much of the Bible explicitly claims to have been written by humans (Luke or Paul, for instance), and when God is said to speak, he is explicitly quoted. In the Qur'an, God regularly speaks in the first person, addressing the Prophet. - Mustafaa 10:37, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think it would be interesting to compare the usage of the Qur'an with other texts i.e. Christians have multiple Study Bibles. Would one find a counterpart of the Gideon's Association putting copies in hotel rooms in Moslem countries? Do most Moslem families own a personal copy, or do most Moslems go to a Mosque to read it?
Also, Sikh's hold the word of their Guru's in a sacred book which is kept on display and well cared for because the book itself is seen as sacred. Does anyone know if it's similar in Islam? For example, is defacing a copy of the Qur'an a harsh insult? Would a student of the Qur'an feel uncomfortable underlining, highlighting or writing in the margins in their copies?
Moreover, I would imagine that there are more copies of the Bible than people in the world, would it be comparable with the Qur'an, with every home containing multiple copies, every Mosque containing more than enough copies for parishioners, etc.? ----
Could be an interesting topic for expansion. Certainly one would never do anything like "underlining, highlighting or writing in the margins in their copies"; indeed, you aren't supposed to touch the book unless you've performed wudu first. - Mustafaa 10:24, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I went on vacation to Iran and yes, they do have Qur'ans in each hotel room(at least in the ones I checked). Most Muslims would have an Arabic-only Qur'an, with translations and such at the Mosque.
Defacing the Qur'an has no actual punishment; I suppose it is up to God to decide. Although it is quite disrespectful. And I think that the original Arabic should not be highlighted but the translations and such are allowed to be.
Yes.
Err, I've never heard of 'Hafiz' being tranlsated as memorizer. I mean, the phrase 'Allah Hafiz', which is very prevailant in Indian cultures as a 'goodbye' greeting (similar to Ma'salaam in Libya or Wa'Salaam in Saudi Arabia) means 'Allah (God) protect [you]'. No?
This is correct. They mean the same: Allah Hafiz is "Allah preserve you", and a memorizer is someone who has preserved the Qur'an in his head. - Mustafaa 10:22, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
As far as I know of, Al-Qur'an is considered sacred only because it has Allah word in it. If the wording is wipe out, it is just a piece of paper. It is something like if you have a picture of your mother, you do not want to step on it. However, those who want to touch it must perform wudu to clean themselves spiritually; and non-muslim is forbidden to touch it (because they cannot perform wudu and thus forever not spiritually clean. (In order to perform wudu one have to be a muslim, get it..)
Writing on it is like writing on one's mother picture, can be done if it in for some good purpose, i.e. reminder, otherwise, it is the intent that is counted.
Al-Qur'an was written within the life time of companions of Muhammad. If any variation is introduced, I do not think any one of them worthy a grain of salt would keep quiet. They are all, willing to die for Allah. Whom am I to say what those companions already unanimiously agreed. Yosri 11:37, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Good analogy. - Mustafaa 12:31, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
shouldn't the arabic (alphabet) version of the name be "al-qur'an" (if not "al-qur'an al-karim") rather than simply "qur'an" (afaik, without the article the word simply means "lecture", and only the definite article makes it "The Lecture", similar to "a book" vs, "The Bible") dab 09:00, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Also, according to WP policy, the article should be at Quran rather than Qur'an: while the latter is more precise, it is not the more common variant in English. Similarly, we would have to have Sa`udi, Sa`udi `Arabia rather than Saudi, Saudi Arabia. dab 12:10, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Another question. I have noticed that in the arabic name the alif of the article carries a hamza on top. I have learned just one year of Arabic, but I think this should never happen (except in the Iraqi flag, were the alif in Allah carries a hamza, I don't know why). Anybody with more auctoritas to agree or disagree please? I don't dare to correct it because I'm not sure, thanks -- ArinArin 14:14, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I uploaded the original text (in Unicode) to Wikisource:Al-Qur’ân al-Karîm. Maybe we can include an additional wikisource link to it. (it should be moved to the unicode-arabic title, though) dab 09:21, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There are loads of vocalized Arabic texts of the Qur'an online (eg http://www.holyquran.net/quran/index.html); what's wrong with those? - Mustafaa 10:11, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Maybe I am wrong, and I was just unable to find them. The example you give, however, I cannot display. (what format is it?). If you have a clean, unicode, vocalized etext, I would be thankful if you uploaded it to Wikisource! dab 10:40, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
http://www.lib.umich.edu/area/Near.East/QuranKarim11192002Unicode.html has vocalized Unicode, but suffering from the same orthographic problem. I don't have a digital dictionary; the spellings with superscript-alif's are for the most part used only in the Qur'an and not in modern documents... - Mustafaa 14:10, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In
[8], I found one transliteration that might mislead, between:
It seems this transliteration occur in every verses contain them.
I suggest, based on similar pronounciation with ʾulā, that the writing is yuʾminūna instead (ʾ for representing dead hamza/alif, ʿ for representing ʿayn). - DiN 01:42, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC+1)
Of couse, hamza should be ʾ. (what is a dead hamza?) Is the spelling consistent, or is this just an error in the text? dab 08:48, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Um, I assume this project is to be shared when finished? Would be nice to get it up at Project Gutenberg (probably as an HTML text with UTF-8 specified). Also, if you want to work on other texts, Distributed Proofreaders Europe is a Unicode-compliant proofreading site. They're doing their first project in Arabic script (in Urdu, really, the poems of Iqbal) and it would be nice if other projects followed. Zora 13:58, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm trying to get a Wikipedia entry done on each sura; anyone want to participate? - Mustafaa 11:57, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Do we really need this (PBUH) business? It doesn't seem very neutral or encyclopaedic (the Muhammad article does without it. And we don't say "his Holiness" every time we mention a pope either, to accomodate the Catholics). dab 14:42, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This article needs complete revision, at least the first half. It reads like written by an apologist. OneGuy 16:33, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
-- Remove the paragraph about the Bible. That was totally irrelevant here. OneGuy 17:40, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
-- There is no dispute on the superiority of various dialects ( ahruf) that the Qur'an was being recited, because the dialects use by Muhammad (PBUH) is the original one, and should be the one followed. The dispute is on localised reading at various location outside Mecca & Medina, because the people there have diferent dialects. Yosri 17:46, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Some conflicting questions about this Samrkund manuscript.
This is a complete Qur'an.
There are no vowel or diacritical marks here. We know for sure that Hajjaj bin Yousef introduced vowel marks in written Qur'ans. Hajjaj died in June 714. This would suggest (perhaps) that this manuscript was written before 714.
The problem is that the manuscript is in Kufic script. Kufic script was developed in Kufa, Iraq. Ali ibn Talib (who came after Uthman) made Kufa his capital. This then can't be Uthmanic manuscript for sure.
When exactly was Kufic script developed? I have seen Christian writers (like Jay Smith) claim that Kufic script was developed way latter during Abbasid (750 CE) caliphate. His only argument was that the script appears on the coins during Abbasid caliphate. But just because the script appears on Abbasid coins doesn't mean it didn't exist before that. Anyone knows exact date when the Kufic script was used first? If it developed before 750, then Samrkund manuscript is probably older than 750, since it does not have vowel marks, and given that Hajjaj who introduced vowel marks died in 714, this manuscript could be older than even 714. OneGuy 20:37, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Too add something here, Hajjaj bin Yousef (d. 714) was the governor of Kufa (where Kufic script developed). Since Hajjaj introduced vowels into the Qur'an, how is it possible that Samarkand manuscript is written in Kufic script (home of hajjaj) but yet it doesn't have vowels and diacritical marks? The manuscript has to be older than Hajjaj, somewhere between Ali's Caliphate and the death of Hajjaj in 714.
I have not seen any scientific dating done on this manuscript. Some scholars have only speculated that Kufic script appears on Abbasid coins after 750, so the manuscript must be 750 or older. This cannot be right. Umayyad Caliphate ruled from Syria, so that's why we don't see Kufic script before 750 on coins. This doesn't mean that the script didn't exist in Kufa (Iraq) before 750. If some scientists date this manuscript, it could put an end to Wansbrough theory for sure.
That part is factually incorrect. The article claims that liberal movements in Islam implicitly or explicitly question the uncreateded Qur'an when they "question the continuing applicability and validity of Islamic law."
First, let me explain this. Most Islamic scholars accept that parts of the Qur'an deals with specific situation during the time of Muhammad (i.e locked in time). Does that contradict that the Qur'an is eternal and uncreated? No, this can be explained easily by something like this: God knew from eternity what will happen during the time of Muhammad; thus, even though parts of the Qur'an deal specifically with the situation at the time of Muhammad, it could still be eternal and uncreated (since God always knew what was going to happen at that time and what "revelation" will be given in response).
Given that background, now it's easy to understand that you can be a "liberal Muslim" and interpret ALL Islamic law as being relevant ONLY at the time of Muhammad, but yet believe that the Qur'an is eternal word of God. A "liberal Muslim" doesn't have to deny the Qur'an being uncreated word of God to be a "liberal Muslim."
Any comments on that? OneGuy 13:31, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I've added a fairly long but by no means comprehensive section on some stylistic features of the Qur'an; overview and comments would be welcome. Thanks! - Mustafaa 00:38, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Someone coming from an anonymous IP added references to the Apocrypha and Didache, which I changed slightly to references to Bible and Torah, Apocrypha and Midrash, which is somewhat more correct, I believe. Same person also deleted link to audio recordings of Qur'an recitals and substituted another one. I restored the original link, without removing the addition. I'm not at all sure what the differences between the links are. Would appreciate some input from others more knowledgeable in this area. I also deleted a website about Qur'anic views of the Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity, as that seemed somewhat off the main topic. Might be appropriate for another article.
I intend to work on this article sometime, but I'm still READING. Stack of books next to the bed ... Zora 08:12, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Peace --
These appeals early on to Torah and Gospel citations might give the impression that Muslims accept the contemporary versions of these books as divine revelation, which is not true. We ***respect*** them, but regard them (as the Qur'an instructs) as having been tampered with by human beings.
The whole question of whether a given Torah or Gospel passage foretells the coming of Muhammad (pbuh) or the revelation of the Qur'an is a controversial one, and it seems to me a bit of a distraction here, early on in the piece. Accordingly, I've edited it out, though I'm certainly open to discussion about why these refs belong in the article. BrandonYusufToropov 12:06, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I deleted this:
"A Qur'an created by God for a particular context might also account for differences between the Bible without requiring humans to have corrupted divine texts."
... because it is, I think, a position no qualified Islamic scholar would actually support. The Qur'an clearly holds that the religious scriptures of Christians and Jews were corrupted by human influence. A non-Muslim would be free to disagree on this point, of course, but even a "liberal" Muslim, I think, would not attempt to "explain away" such passages as 2:59, 2:78-79, 3:78, 3:187, and 5:13.
2:106 has been interpreted as an explanation for the phenomenon of God allowing change and abrogation of Christian and Jewish scriptures. This is a controversial matter, of course.
When I clicked on that link, I got a lot of warning messages and then an error message. When I went in through Google, it was fine. But the link, as reproduced below, looks exactly the same.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/textcriticism.html
I'm not sure that this is a very GOOD link, once reached. It has a mean-spirited, nyah-nyah-nyah air to it. It focuses heavily on attacking the Christian scriptures -- which, as I'm a Buddhist, seems somewhat beside the point.
The links really do need to be evaluated and sorted into categories. Zora 13:41, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think someone added some external links in Miscellaneous -- I didn't remember seeing them previously. I looked at them briefly, then moved two of them to Tafsir.
The links section is going to have to be watched carefully, because every zealot with a favorite teacher is going to want to add his/her link. I do think that only the teachers with the larger followings should be featured in the links, not marginal crackpots. The problem is that, as a non-Muslim, I have NO IDEA who's mainstream and who's a crackpot. This is where we need even-handed, judicious Muslim editors. Zora 20:35, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I fussed with the links, and added one book to the reading list. Are the references OK now? Zora 11:29, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
An anonymous editor just added, and I just removed, the following link:
While the "Qur'an viewer" touted in the site can be downloaded for free, that seems to be a loss-leader for various other programs that are available only by purchase. Given that e-books of the Qur'an are available for free from other sites, I don't see any reason to include this link. But I'm laying out the reasons for my decision here in case anyone wants to argue the point. Zora 22:28, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I just checked it. The software was free, but there were also many free translations downloadable from this page of the site:
http://www.divineislam.co.uk/DivineIslam/Software/Quran_Translations/
Such as,
(Muhammad Asad -- well known Jewish convert but has not article on wiki yet? -- his translation that is linked from the article is poorly formatted and appears incomplete; though the commentary part is missing even on the software page apparently).
All these were free. Are they available on other site? If not, then this part makes it worth giving it a link.
Plus, free translations in many other languages were on the page (French, Spanish, Urdu, Chinese, Malay, Indonesian, Albanian, Azerbaijani, Bosnian, Japanese, Korean, German, Dutch, Czech Portuguese, Finnish, Hausa, Somali, Malayalam, Maranao, Tamil, Thai, Russian, Turkish, Swahili) OneGuy 11:28, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I don't see the point of linking to zillions of qur'an translations in all these languages. If I wanted to find such a translation, I'd just google. Sure, we van link to a couple of English translations, but linking to freeware? Probably a Windows binary (platform bias)? I don't see the point. This is going too far in the direction of 'link repository' and has no direct relevance to the article. [[User:Dbachmann| dab ( T) ]] 11:47, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Again, notifying folks that I deleted a picture of a Qur'an translation put up by Hoshie. One, it didn't fit well. Two, it was a full-face picture of a particular translation, so that it seemed as if Wikipedia were recommending that particular translation. A picture of a stack of translations would work better. I'd take one, but I don't have a digital camera ... Zora 00:57, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
P.S. If we're going to have pictures, surely pictures of beautifully calligraphed and decorated Qur'ans would be apropos. Perhaps even a breakout article on history of Qur'an calligraphy and decoration ... Surely it wouldn't be too hard to get permission to open-source a photo of one of the celebrated Qur'ans in some of the major collections. Zora 01:00, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The article says, "Today seven canonical readings of the Qur'an and several uncanonical exist" and the list has names of,
Ibn Kathir of Makka (120/737) cannot be the same Ibn Kathir who has article on wiki. That Ibn Kathir was born in 1301. Changed the link to Ibn Kathir of Makka OneGuy
I've added a section on parts and subdivisions. One page says that the hizb division is used only in the Arab world and the ruku' division only in South Asia -- if someone can confirm this, it would be good to add that information. Joriki 06:42, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A number of anonymous IPs (I suspect website owners plugging their own websites) have added three (?) external links during the last day. I'm starting to wonder just HOW MANY Qur'an sites there are on the web. I'm also beginning to doubt my ability to distinguish between the really good ones and the hack jobs. I hope some of the other editors will scan all the websites and post some input here. Just how big do we want the list to be and what criteria do we use to judge their usefulness? Zora 20:21, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Zain 01:28, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I added a text there, which was removed by Grenavitar requiring better facts and npov. I think npov is not the issue here, but sources. So I added references and also the verses from the Qur'an. Be aware that my goal is just to add evidence that criticism against the Qur'an (in the context of the Qur'ans accusations of "textual errors" in the bible) has a broader scope then just looking at it from the angle of "Higher biblical criticism" as the paragraph states it. Where biblical history is backed up by "secular" sources there is clearly more to it. The 3 (or 4 if you like) examples I deliver are not related to historical criticism against the Qur'an in general, but very specific related to where the "cause" of the discrepancy threatens to be attributed to "textual corruption" of the Bible, where this apparently is not true. — Fjodorii 10:44, 2005 Jan 24 (UTC)
The article lists Mary as a prophet of Islam. This is not correct. Prophethood is restricted to men in Islam. Prater 13:26, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Right you are. I have revised to fix this error. BrandonYusufToropov 21:31, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
We now have a fairly large selection of links to various Islamic websites (Qur'an translations, recitations, ulm, tafsir). I have NO idea whether these sites are managed by respected scholars and mainstream organizations, or whether they're out-of-the-mainstream or kooky. I'm simply not knowledgeable enough. I would really appreciate if the Muslim editors could check the links and prune any strange ones. Zora 06:10, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
BrandonYusufToropov linked to a page on Tafsir that is one of the chapter of a book Ulum al Qur'an that is already linked . Kind of redundant OneGuy
I tweaked this list a little -- but Oneguy, is the duplicate link we want to delete under the heading Tafsir or Ulm right now? Please let me know, thanks. BrandonYusufToropov 12:56, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Link to Ulum al Qur'an cannot be deleted because that's the complete book. Maybe duplicate in this case is not a problem. One links to the exact chapter in the book that deals with Tafsir, so it's not exact duplicate. This should be left as at it is OneGuy 13:22, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There is a page at Quran slavery, that has nothing linking to it, and is not very wikified, with only a couple of edits. Someone who knows more should look into it and decide what to do with it -- Jacobolus 20:09, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It seems to have been corrected, now has quotes from parts of the Qur'an talking about slavery
-- usayd 21:50, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)