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This article is a bit gossipy - could do with some of the facts being clarified (e.g. what happened to Sertorius from 87 to 83? Why exactly did he go to Spain?). The language of optimates/populares needs to be cleaned up - it's very 19th century to think in these terms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.43.45 ( talk) 08:58, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
After having added a lot of patent nonsense and having been reverted and warned, 207.162.58.10 has changed the description of Quintus Sertorius' death. I have reverted that, too—I have not found any corroborating external sources for this version, but lots for the assassination. The only Battle of Ravenna I know of was in 432, not 72 BC. Looks like "stealth vandalism" to me: deliberately adding wrong information in a way that makes it hard to detect because it appears plausible at first glance. Lupo 08:17, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This article is in places unclear--"He now declared for Marius and the populares party, though of Marius himself as a man he had the worst opinion. He must have been a consenting party to the hideous massacres of Marius and Cinna in 87, though he seems to have done what he could to mitigate their horrors". Perhaps this should be reworked. -- 24.251.168.56 22:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The article takes as granted, and indeed infers, that the Roman Republic was dominated by two political parties (in the modern style) when, in fact, this idea has been widely discredited. At best they can be considered loose political groupings, but the very nature of Late Republican Roman society was means that any political party, in the modern sense, could never exist. Political alliance was temporary, self centered and ultimately aimed for ones own political ends, as soon as a relationship ceased to meet these ends, it was terminated. Furthermore, the individualism of Roman politics precludes any assertion of a unified set of goals/aims among political allies - Roman society cannot be rendered through the prism of modern political organisation. I move that the article should be rewritten to take into account modern scholarship with relation to Roman politics, or at the very least make it clear that no "party" system existed in the modern sense. Derekpatterson ( talk) 08:48, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
if Quintus Sertorius and Sertorian War are going to share the same article page, it might be a good idea to incorporate something about Sertorius' ablest lieutenant, Hirtuleius, who cleared out, if i'm not mistaken, Hispania Citerior, ousting the Sullan governor as well as defeating Manlius, the governor of Transalpine Gaul who came to his assistance. Quite an asset to Sertorius' cause, Sertorius was not a little sadden upon news of his death, and his death played a major role in Sertorius' diminishing fortunes as the decade waned. The Jackal God 21:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I suggest that the article be renamed from 'Quintus Sertorius' to simply ' Sertorius'. It is WP:CONCISE and he is one of the few Romans in history with that surname, and doubtless the most famous of them. His WP:COMMONNAME is often simply given as Sertorius, with the given name omitted, as is the case with Sulla, Julius Caesar, Pompey, Cicero and others. Aforst1 ( talk) 22:31, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved ( non-admin closure) Aforst1 ( talk) 14:48, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Quintus Sertorius →
Sertorius –
WP:CONCISE,
WP:CRITERIA; nobody else of note with that name
Aforst1 (
talk)
22:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Continued from discussion at WT:CGR:
I would merge. The topics are sufficiently different. The article on Sertorius should concentrate on Sertorius; the article on the war should take a broader view. I am not, however, entirely sure about the quality of the sourcing in the article on Sertorius. Matyszak isn't great; Telford is unreliable; there seems to be a bit of a heavy reliance on primary sources as well. I think there are also some issues with dated historiography. Something that jumps immediately just from the info box is "populares": no such faction or political party ever existed; it is a 19th century historiographical fiction. Further on the page itself probably should be on the relevant talk. I am unsure also as to close paraphrasing. Inasmuch as such problems exist, I would fix them and then do rescoping. Ifly6 (talk) 2:39 pm, Yesterday (UTC−4)
Re Tribune of the plebs ... 87 BC
. Most modern sources seem to reject tribunate in 87. Per Pina Polo on repulsae, via DPRR, he was evidently unsuccessful in the elections for 88 (meaning he would not serve in 87). This is similarly accepted by Brennan 2000 p 503 Sertorius was a failed candidate for the tribunate of (probably) 88
. Konrad seems to place him as urban praetor in 85 or 84; Brennan rejects the then-accepted date of Sertorius' praetorship (83) as too late and puts forward arguments against an early praetorship (86 or 85); if we need to have exactly one year I would probably put 84. I'll edit the current dash to or
and remove the entry on the tribunate shortly.
Ifly6 (
talk)
21:46, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
he makes a very tentative case for a tribunate in 87 (59–62)– it is at least worth mentioning as a possibility or aside in notes. But, I think, still not in the infobox. Ifly6 ( talk) 03:39, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
The current version of the article has a number of malformed quotes and parameters. Use {{
quote}} instead of ::
. (I also prefer it to blocktext HTML tags because it works well with the 2017 Wikitext editor's highlighting.) Where pages are plural, as in a range or in multiple citations, in {{
sfn}} use |pp=
instead of singular |p=
.
Ifly6 (
talk)
01:50, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
(?<!p)p=\d+(, |[-–])\d+}}
. This is a useful regular expression to find page ranges which are improperly marked with |p=
. Similarly pp=\d+(?=}})
can help find singular pages which are improperly marked with |pp=
. Neither of these will operate with Roman numeral pages like |p=xvii
.
Ifly6 (
talk)
19:48, 27 July 2024 (UTC)Per
WP:ERA a non-breaking space
should be added between the year and BC
. This can by typed in the 2017 editor very easily by hitting Ctrl+Space (Windows) or ⌘ Command+Space (Mac). Alternatively, the template {{
nbsp}} can be used.
Ifly6 (
talk)
02:54, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
MOS:LOGICAL requires placement of punctuation (commas, full stops, question marks, exclamation marks, etc) outside of quotes unless the quote actually contains that punctuation regardless of WP:ENGVAR. Ifly6 ( talk) 04:32, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
We should not be presenting information in these long block quotes. I haven't taken a long look at them right now but it has code smell:
I am not yet saying that all the long block quotes should be removed, but they should at least be reconsidered. If they are long and anecdotal, they might not add much to the presentation. If they are short, it becomes unclear why they are so separated. Ifly6 ( talk) 01:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
I would encourage trimming the anecdotes and purple prose. For example:
On a moonless night in the year 80 BC, Sertorius sailed his forces from Tingis across the Gibraltar strait back to Hispania. A small fleet under Aurelius Cotta from the coastal town of Mellaria tried to stop him, but he pushed them aside and landed his army at the small fishing town of Baelo near the Pillars of Hercules. Rumours of his army spread far and wide in Hispania. At this point, it was composed of 2,600 Roman legionaries and 700 Libyans.
This is eminently serviceable as Sertorius crossed the strait at Gibraltar at Tingis in 80 BC, landing at Baelo. According to ____, his army was composed of 2,600 Romans and 700 Libyans.
On momentary examination, Plut. Sert. 12.2. Re the underline, in general, I am wary of ancient numbers and believe they should be sourced directly along with parallel citations to who believes them. Cf
this meme.
Humor
Ifly6 (
talk)
05:34, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
I post this to clarify two things for what I plan to edit. First, the notion by Spann that Livy was 'hostile' to Sertorius due to his affinity for Pompey, and second Sertorius' Grass Crown.
Konrad refutes Spann's claim that Livy was 'hostile' to Sertorius. For the Sertorian War a la Livy, we have the periochae from Book 90-96 and a singular long fragment from Book 91. Compared to Appian, who is hostile, it appears Livy presented Sertorius relatively neutrally. Periochae 93.5 has praise for Sertorius, while 96.4 has a short character assessment of him after his death. The epitomator writes "he [Sertorius] had been a great leader and against two commanders, Pompey and Metellus, he had often been successful, although in the end, he changed into a savage and prodigal man." This is a rather accurate account of Sertorius, not really 'hostile'. The length of this assessment has Konrad point out that Livy probably wrote a "substantial obituary" for Sertorius, which is a curious thing to include if he hated the man. Further, in the extended fragment of Book 91 which details Sertorius' movements and instructions for the opening of the campaign in 76 BC, Livy presents Sertorius as an able Roman commander, and his actions are presented quite objectively. Konrad writes that Livy saw Sertorius not as an "Iberianized robber baron" but "a great Roman whose life went all wrong". Obviously, Livy is the only source for the movements he presents, but none are openly tinged with dislike (like Appian in some cases) and follow what we know of Sertorius quite well (cunctatio is practically his strategic trademark in the war, after all). Harren the Red ( talk) 01:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Appian, conversely, possibly reflecting Sulla's memoirs, is evidently quite disfavourable to Sertorius. It's littered throughout his writing, but the example that comes to mind immediately to me is Sertorius' attempts to besiege Metellus' camp after the battle of Saguntum and Appian labeling his actions 'contemptuous'. Sertorius' senate is made in "derision" of the real one, and Appian also, inexplicably, takes Sertorius white doe -- a tool by which he gained the awe and support of native Iberians -- and has Sertorius himself be manipulated by it. Sertorius was a politician, and the doe was a clever political stunt. Are we really to believe that "When this fawn was not in sight Sertorius considered it a bad omen. He became low-spirited and abstained from fighting; nor did he mind the enemy's scoffing at him about the fawn." (Appian, BC 1.8.109)? By making Sertorius fall for his own ruse, Appian is making him more of a fool than he was. Spann notes that Appian's portrayal of Sertorius' "heaven-sent madness" is at odds with his own belief that "if Sertorius had lived longer, the war would not have ended so soon or so easily" but misses the point by denying Sertorius descent into tyranny. Appian probably exaggerated existing reports of Sertorius' tyranny (out of his own dislike); Livy's periochae reports on them, as does Plutarch. Konrad, I recall, also agrees that Appian very much did not like Sertorius, and the substance of his discussion on the matter is similar to here.
The 'hostile sources concede he was a great leader' bit in Legacy need not be deleted though. Appian many times notes Sertorius' proficiency in warfare, so it can just be changed a bit.
So Appian was certainly not a fan of Sertorius, while Livy was not 'hostile'. I intend to edit the Legacy section with that in mind. I'm just posting my thoughts so my edits do not come out of nowhere. Harren the Red ( talk) 01:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
The second point I want to raise before I delete it from numerous articles is Sertorius' Grass Crown. Before I began editing the article (and as of now too), it states quite matter-of-factly that Sertorius won the Crown during the incident in Castulo. The only citation I can find for this is Pliny's account of those he could find who won Grass Crowns in his Natural History. Spann rejected this as being proof Sertorius won one, Konrad also agrees, as does other studies of Sertorius' life/career, which makes me confused as to how it was ever tied to Castulo specifically.
Pliny writes in Volume 22.6 of Natural History how Sulla claims in his own memoirs he got the Crown during the Social War in Nola. Pliny then writes "If there is any truth in this statement, I can only say that it renders his memory all the more execrable, and that, by his proscriptions, with his own hand he tore this crown from his brow, for few indeed were the citizens whom he thus preserved, in comparison with those he slaughtered at a later period. And let him even add to this high honour his proud surname of "Felix," if he will; all the glories of this crown he surrendered to Sertorius, from the moment that he put his proscribed fellow-citizens in a stage of siege throughout the whole world."
I think this passage makes clear Pliny did not like Sulla, but the "crown he surrendered" is to me very much metaphorical, as Spann writes. He's making the point that Sertorius had "all the glories" of the crown (i.e., he protected proscribed Romans, in a similar vein to how the Crown is usually granted for saving an entire legion or army of Roman soldiers) after Sulla's proscriptions. How was this ever tied to Castulo? Are there any other sources for this? I am baffled at how certainly this was presented, even in the Grass Crown article. Surely Plutarch, the sympathetic biographer, would have mentioned such a great honour for his hero Sertorius in the Life of Sertorius if he had won it? If anyone can find more information on this, I would appreciate it. Otherwise, I am inclined to delete it from here and the Grass Crown page. A single obscure reference from a primary source, probably misinterpreted, is not firm enough evidence for this in my view. Harren the Red ( talk) 01:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Spann rejected this... Konrad also agrees, that is the end of it: academic secondary sources basically always beat editors' interpretations of primary sources. If someone later objects to the removal, provide quote snippets. Ifly6 ( talk) 02:51, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Pliny's remark regarding Sertorius possibly winning the Grass Crown, tied sometimes to the Castulo incident, is refuted by scholars. [1] [2] Castulo did, however, earn Sertorius considerable fame in Hispania and abroad, aiding his future political career.I would cite the relevant passage of Pliny.
{{sfnm|Spann|1p=20|Konrad|1994|2pp=52|Plin. ''NH''|3loc=22.6}}
[3]. However, we should also consider adding the year back to Spann's anchor; doing so would make |1a1=
and the like unnecessary. For the anchor to Plin. NH to work we'll have to add it to the bibliography. Further information at
WP:CGR/Guides/Primary sources. Having the primary sources cited is important in making our articles useful to the specialists who would consult them.References
I can't seem to find any rules or guidelines on what conditions are necessary for a page image, or standards on historical pages for this. Although no busts or coinage of Sertorius survives, we do have numerous artworks of him as in the article. I'm personally not a huge fan of any of them (Sertorius lost an eye, dammit! Why do none of them have that?), but I think Sertorius deserves an image of some kind. Are these artworks generally not permissible for historical figures as page images?
If anything, I am partial to this chromolithograph (even though it also misses the eye thing). I recall seeing Look and Learn as among the sources of free images that can be used on Wikipedia, so I would appreciate getting further opinions on this, but as I am not experienced in copyright for images I will not do anything without knowing for certain this image is 'safe'. It says it was created in the 19th century, so surely enough time has passed for it to become common use? Harren the Red ( talk) 03:53, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
|image=
, |alt=
(a text description of the image) and |caption=
to the infobox, with the filename as the image parameter. If you upload it (cropped to just the obverse, ideally), I'm happy to take a look at the fair-use rationale and tweak it if/as necessary.
UndercoverClassicist
T·
C
09:14, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
A recent edit changed, in context, the word force
to legion
in the following:
Sertorius thoroughly outmaneuvered Pompey during the battle, forcing him to stay in place by threatening an attack from the rear, then killed his foragers and a Pompeian legion sent to relieve the foragers.
Is this accurate? A legion is not an army. Nor is it a force. It is a specific unit. Ifly6 ( talk) 05:43, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
legionand
army associated with republican or imperial Romeinterchangeably. Thanks for the confirmation. Also, I again recommend parallel citations for this sort of thing, especially with troop numbers that are from ancient sources. Ifly6 ( talk) 18:20, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
What would be a good length of this article, in total? I have significantly trimmed the Sertorian War section (more remains to be done) and it stands, as of now, at 7161 words. I am mostly basing this off of the fact that the Marius and Sulla pages, respectively, are both ~8000 words, and this is appropriate given they are much more important figures in Roman history in general. Sertorius should certainly be shorter, but how much?
I still want to cut down Sertorian War more and rewrite some sections, but what do some of you think an ideal length would be? Curious to hear any ideas.
The cut sections for this article's Sertorian War section I will be merging into the existing Sertorian War article sometime later; as of now, it is threadbare and missing some information of import. Harren the Red ( talk) 20:10, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
He gathered support from other Roman exiles and the native Iberian tribes – in part by using his tamed white fawn to paint himself as a religious leader before them – employing irregular warfare to defeat commanders repeatedly sent from Rome to subdue him.Ifly6 ( talk) 20:35, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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This article is a bit gossipy - could do with some of the facts being clarified (e.g. what happened to Sertorius from 87 to 83? Why exactly did he go to Spain?). The language of optimates/populares needs to be cleaned up - it's very 19th century to think in these terms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.43.45 ( talk) 08:58, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
After having added a lot of patent nonsense and having been reverted and warned, 207.162.58.10 has changed the description of Quintus Sertorius' death. I have reverted that, too—I have not found any corroborating external sources for this version, but lots for the assassination. The only Battle of Ravenna I know of was in 432, not 72 BC. Looks like "stealth vandalism" to me: deliberately adding wrong information in a way that makes it hard to detect because it appears plausible at first glance. Lupo 08:17, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
This article is in places unclear--"He now declared for Marius and the populares party, though of Marius himself as a man he had the worst opinion. He must have been a consenting party to the hideous massacres of Marius and Cinna in 87, though he seems to have done what he could to mitigate their horrors". Perhaps this should be reworked. -- 24.251.168.56 22:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The article takes as granted, and indeed infers, that the Roman Republic was dominated by two political parties (in the modern style) when, in fact, this idea has been widely discredited. At best they can be considered loose political groupings, but the very nature of Late Republican Roman society was means that any political party, in the modern sense, could never exist. Political alliance was temporary, self centered and ultimately aimed for ones own political ends, as soon as a relationship ceased to meet these ends, it was terminated. Furthermore, the individualism of Roman politics precludes any assertion of a unified set of goals/aims among political allies - Roman society cannot be rendered through the prism of modern political organisation. I move that the article should be rewritten to take into account modern scholarship with relation to Roman politics, or at the very least make it clear that no "party" system existed in the modern sense. Derekpatterson ( talk) 08:48, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
if Quintus Sertorius and Sertorian War are going to share the same article page, it might be a good idea to incorporate something about Sertorius' ablest lieutenant, Hirtuleius, who cleared out, if i'm not mistaken, Hispania Citerior, ousting the Sullan governor as well as defeating Manlius, the governor of Transalpine Gaul who came to his assistance. Quite an asset to Sertorius' cause, Sertorius was not a little sadden upon news of his death, and his death played a major role in Sertorius' diminishing fortunes as the decade waned. The Jackal God 21:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I suggest that the article be renamed from 'Quintus Sertorius' to simply ' Sertorius'. It is WP:CONCISE and he is one of the few Romans in history with that surname, and doubtless the most famous of them. His WP:COMMONNAME is often simply given as Sertorius, with the given name omitted, as is the case with Sulla, Julius Caesar, Pompey, Cicero and others. Aforst1 ( talk) 22:31, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved ( non-admin closure) Aforst1 ( talk) 14:48, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Quintus Sertorius →
Sertorius –
WP:CONCISE,
WP:CRITERIA; nobody else of note with that name
Aforst1 (
talk)
22:59, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Continued from discussion at WT:CGR:
I would merge. The topics are sufficiently different. The article on Sertorius should concentrate on Sertorius; the article on the war should take a broader view. I am not, however, entirely sure about the quality of the sourcing in the article on Sertorius. Matyszak isn't great; Telford is unreliable; there seems to be a bit of a heavy reliance on primary sources as well. I think there are also some issues with dated historiography. Something that jumps immediately just from the info box is "populares": no such faction or political party ever existed; it is a 19th century historiographical fiction. Further on the page itself probably should be on the relevant talk. I am unsure also as to close paraphrasing. Inasmuch as such problems exist, I would fix them and then do rescoping. Ifly6 (talk) 2:39 pm, Yesterday (UTC−4)
Re Tribune of the plebs ... 87 BC
. Most modern sources seem to reject tribunate in 87. Per Pina Polo on repulsae, via DPRR, he was evidently unsuccessful in the elections for 88 (meaning he would not serve in 87). This is similarly accepted by Brennan 2000 p 503 Sertorius was a failed candidate for the tribunate of (probably) 88
. Konrad seems to place him as urban praetor in 85 or 84; Brennan rejects the then-accepted date of Sertorius' praetorship (83) as too late and puts forward arguments against an early praetorship (86 or 85); if we need to have exactly one year I would probably put 84. I'll edit the current dash to or
and remove the entry on the tribunate shortly.
Ifly6 (
talk)
21:46, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
he makes a very tentative case for a tribunate in 87 (59–62)– it is at least worth mentioning as a possibility or aside in notes. But, I think, still not in the infobox. Ifly6 ( talk) 03:39, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
The current version of the article has a number of malformed quotes and parameters. Use {{
quote}} instead of ::
. (I also prefer it to blocktext HTML tags because it works well with the 2017 Wikitext editor's highlighting.) Where pages are plural, as in a range or in multiple citations, in {{
sfn}} use |pp=
instead of singular |p=
.
Ifly6 (
talk)
01:50, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
(?<!p)p=\d+(, |[-–])\d+}}
. This is a useful regular expression to find page ranges which are improperly marked with |p=
. Similarly pp=\d+(?=}})
can help find singular pages which are improperly marked with |pp=
. Neither of these will operate with Roman numeral pages like |p=xvii
.
Ifly6 (
talk)
19:48, 27 July 2024 (UTC)Per
WP:ERA a non-breaking space
should be added between the year and BC
. This can by typed in the 2017 editor very easily by hitting Ctrl+Space (Windows) or ⌘ Command+Space (Mac). Alternatively, the template {{
nbsp}} can be used.
Ifly6 (
talk)
02:54, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
MOS:LOGICAL requires placement of punctuation (commas, full stops, question marks, exclamation marks, etc) outside of quotes unless the quote actually contains that punctuation regardless of WP:ENGVAR. Ifly6 ( talk) 04:32, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
We should not be presenting information in these long block quotes. I haven't taken a long look at them right now but it has code smell:
I am not yet saying that all the long block quotes should be removed, but they should at least be reconsidered. If they are long and anecdotal, they might not add much to the presentation. If they are short, it becomes unclear why they are so separated. Ifly6 ( talk) 01:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
I would encourage trimming the anecdotes and purple prose. For example:
On a moonless night in the year 80 BC, Sertorius sailed his forces from Tingis across the Gibraltar strait back to Hispania. A small fleet under Aurelius Cotta from the coastal town of Mellaria tried to stop him, but he pushed them aside and landed his army at the small fishing town of Baelo near the Pillars of Hercules. Rumours of his army spread far and wide in Hispania. At this point, it was composed of 2,600 Roman legionaries and 700 Libyans.
This is eminently serviceable as Sertorius crossed the strait at Gibraltar at Tingis in 80 BC, landing at Baelo. According to ____, his army was composed of 2,600 Romans and 700 Libyans.
On momentary examination, Plut. Sert. 12.2. Re the underline, in general, I am wary of ancient numbers and believe they should be sourced directly along with parallel citations to who believes them. Cf
this meme.
Humor
Ifly6 (
talk)
05:34, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
I post this to clarify two things for what I plan to edit. First, the notion by Spann that Livy was 'hostile' to Sertorius due to his affinity for Pompey, and second Sertorius' Grass Crown.
Konrad refutes Spann's claim that Livy was 'hostile' to Sertorius. For the Sertorian War a la Livy, we have the periochae from Book 90-96 and a singular long fragment from Book 91. Compared to Appian, who is hostile, it appears Livy presented Sertorius relatively neutrally. Periochae 93.5 has praise for Sertorius, while 96.4 has a short character assessment of him after his death. The epitomator writes "he [Sertorius] had been a great leader and against two commanders, Pompey and Metellus, he had often been successful, although in the end, he changed into a savage and prodigal man." This is a rather accurate account of Sertorius, not really 'hostile'. The length of this assessment has Konrad point out that Livy probably wrote a "substantial obituary" for Sertorius, which is a curious thing to include if he hated the man. Further, in the extended fragment of Book 91 which details Sertorius' movements and instructions for the opening of the campaign in 76 BC, Livy presents Sertorius as an able Roman commander, and his actions are presented quite objectively. Konrad writes that Livy saw Sertorius not as an "Iberianized robber baron" but "a great Roman whose life went all wrong". Obviously, Livy is the only source for the movements he presents, but none are openly tinged with dislike (like Appian in some cases) and follow what we know of Sertorius quite well (cunctatio is practically his strategic trademark in the war, after all). Harren the Red ( talk) 01:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Appian, conversely, possibly reflecting Sulla's memoirs, is evidently quite disfavourable to Sertorius. It's littered throughout his writing, but the example that comes to mind immediately to me is Sertorius' attempts to besiege Metellus' camp after the battle of Saguntum and Appian labeling his actions 'contemptuous'. Sertorius' senate is made in "derision" of the real one, and Appian also, inexplicably, takes Sertorius white doe -- a tool by which he gained the awe and support of native Iberians -- and has Sertorius himself be manipulated by it. Sertorius was a politician, and the doe was a clever political stunt. Are we really to believe that "When this fawn was not in sight Sertorius considered it a bad omen. He became low-spirited and abstained from fighting; nor did he mind the enemy's scoffing at him about the fawn." (Appian, BC 1.8.109)? By making Sertorius fall for his own ruse, Appian is making him more of a fool than he was. Spann notes that Appian's portrayal of Sertorius' "heaven-sent madness" is at odds with his own belief that "if Sertorius had lived longer, the war would not have ended so soon or so easily" but misses the point by denying Sertorius descent into tyranny. Appian probably exaggerated existing reports of Sertorius' tyranny (out of his own dislike); Livy's periochae reports on them, as does Plutarch. Konrad, I recall, also agrees that Appian very much did not like Sertorius, and the substance of his discussion on the matter is similar to here.
The 'hostile sources concede he was a great leader' bit in Legacy need not be deleted though. Appian many times notes Sertorius' proficiency in warfare, so it can just be changed a bit.
So Appian was certainly not a fan of Sertorius, while Livy was not 'hostile'. I intend to edit the Legacy section with that in mind. I'm just posting my thoughts so my edits do not come out of nowhere. Harren the Red ( talk) 01:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
The second point I want to raise before I delete it from numerous articles is Sertorius' Grass Crown. Before I began editing the article (and as of now too), it states quite matter-of-factly that Sertorius won the Crown during the incident in Castulo. The only citation I can find for this is Pliny's account of those he could find who won Grass Crowns in his Natural History. Spann rejected this as being proof Sertorius won one, Konrad also agrees, as does other studies of Sertorius' life/career, which makes me confused as to how it was ever tied to Castulo specifically.
Pliny writes in Volume 22.6 of Natural History how Sulla claims in his own memoirs he got the Crown during the Social War in Nola. Pliny then writes "If there is any truth in this statement, I can only say that it renders his memory all the more execrable, and that, by his proscriptions, with his own hand he tore this crown from his brow, for few indeed were the citizens whom he thus preserved, in comparison with those he slaughtered at a later period. And let him even add to this high honour his proud surname of "Felix," if he will; all the glories of this crown he surrendered to Sertorius, from the moment that he put his proscribed fellow-citizens in a stage of siege throughout the whole world."
I think this passage makes clear Pliny did not like Sulla, but the "crown he surrendered" is to me very much metaphorical, as Spann writes. He's making the point that Sertorius had "all the glories" of the crown (i.e., he protected proscribed Romans, in a similar vein to how the Crown is usually granted for saving an entire legion or army of Roman soldiers) after Sulla's proscriptions. How was this ever tied to Castulo? Are there any other sources for this? I am baffled at how certainly this was presented, even in the Grass Crown article. Surely Plutarch, the sympathetic biographer, would have mentioned such a great honour for his hero Sertorius in the Life of Sertorius if he had won it? If anyone can find more information on this, I would appreciate it. Otherwise, I am inclined to delete it from here and the Grass Crown page. A single obscure reference from a primary source, probably misinterpreted, is not firm enough evidence for this in my view. Harren the Red ( talk) 01:53, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Spann rejected this... Konrad also agrees, that is the end of it: academic secondary sources basically always beat editors' interpretations of primary sources. If someone later objects to the removal, provide quote snippets. Ifly6 ( talk) 02:51, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Pliny's remark regarding Sertorius possibly winning the Grass Crown, tied sometimes to the Castulo incident, is refuted by scholars. [1] [2] Castulo did, however, earn Sertorius considerable fame in Hispania and abroad, aiding his future political career.I would cite the relevant passage of Pliny.
{{sfnm|Spann|1p=20|Konrad|1994|2pp=52|Plin. ''NH''|3loc=22.6}}
[3]. However, we should also consider adding the year back to Spann's anchor; doing so would make |1a1=
and the like unnecessary. For the anchor to Plin. NH to work we'll have to add it to the bibliography. Further information at
WP:CGR/Guides/Primary sources. Having the primary sources cited is important in making our articles useful to the specialists who would consult them.References
I can't seem to find any rules or guidelines on what conditions are necessary for a page image, or standards on historical pages for this. Although no busts or coinage of Sertorius survives, we do have numerous artworks of him as in the article. I'm personally not a huge fan of any of them (Sertorius lost an eye, dammit! Why do none of them have that?), but I think Sertorius deserves an image of some kind. Are these artworks generally not permissible for historical figures as page images?
If anything, I am partial to this chromolithograph (even though it also misses the eye thing). I recall seeing Look and Learn as among the sources of free images that can be used on Wikipedia, so I would appreciate getting further opinions on this, but as I am not experienced in copyright for images I will not do anything without knowing for certain this image is 'safe'. It says it was created in the 19th century, so surely enough time has passed for it to become common use? Harren the Red ( talk) 03:53, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
|image=
, |alt=
(a text description of the image) and |caption=
to the infobox, with the filename as the image parameter. If you upload it (cropped to just the obverse, ideally), I'm happy to take a look at the fair-use rationale and tweak it if/as necessary.
UndercoverClassicist
T·
C
09:14, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
A recent edit changed, in context, the word force
to legion
in the following:
Sertorius thoroughly outmaneuvered Pompey during the battle, forcing him to stay in place by threatening an attack from the rear, then killed his foragers and a Pompeian legion sent to relieve the foragers.
Is this accurate? A legion is not an army. Nor is it a force. It is a specific unit. Ifly6 ( talk) 05:43, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
legionand
army associated with republican or imperial Romeinterchangeably. Thanks for the confirmation. Also, I again recommend parallel citations for this sort of thing, especially with troop numbers that are from ancient sources. Ifly6 ( talk) 18:20, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
What would be a good length of this article, in total? I have significantly trimmed the Sertorian War section (more remains to be done) and it stands, as of now, at 7161 words. I am mostly basing this off of the fact that the Marius and Sulla pages, respectively, are both ~8000 words, and this is appropriate given they are much more important figures in Roman history in general. Sertorius should certainly be shorter, but how much?
I still want to cut down Sertorian War more and rewrite some sections, but what do some of you think an ideal length would be? Curious to hear any ideas.
The cut sections for this article's Sertorian War section I will be merging into the existing Sertorian War article sometime later; as of now, it is threadbare and missing some information of import. Harren the Red ( talk) 20:10, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
He gathered support from other Roman exiles and the native Iberian tribes – in part by using his tamed white fawn to paint himself as a religious leader before them – employing irregular warfare to defeat commanders repeatedly sent from Rome to subdue him.Ifly6 ( talk) 20:35, 27 July 2024 (UTC)