This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Queen of Mauritius article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This page was
proposed for deletion by
DrKiernan (
talk ·
contribs) in the past. It was contested by Xoloz ( talk · contribs) |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 12 August 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to Monarchy of Mauritius. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
On 7 June 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Monarchy of Mauritius. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
Seems like a companion article Monarchy in Mauritius is in order, to cover the period prior to becoming a Commonwealth Realm, when Mauritius had a monarch, but it wasn't of Mauritius, since Mauritius was a dependency, not independent. -- 65.92.180.137 ( talk) 00:35, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
-No; but it is a federal state, because Canada is a federal country. Each of the Canadian provinces shares the sovereignty of Canada; which is vested in the monarchy, and thus each has legally its own crown (as do each of the Australian states too), in a federation under the (not physical) Canadian Crown, which is a very different concept from that of a crown colony, which is a non-sovereign territory that does not have its own crown, let alone its own monarchy. None of the Crown Colonies, nor any of the British Dependent/Overseas Territories have ever been part of the 'monarchical system'; whereas the Canadian Provinces and Australian states most certainly are. There is also the legal concept of 'the Queen in right of Ontario', whereas there was never a legal concept of 'the Queen in right of Mauritius' prior to 1968 (though there was 1968-1992), and neither is there for any of the current British Overseas Territories. The Queen of the UK is not, for example 'Queen of the Falkland Islands'; nor is there such a concept as 'the Queen in right of the Falkland Islands' There is no 'sovereign' of any of these territories in their own right, and to speak of a 'monarch' of them makes as much constitutional sense as having an article dedicated to a non-existent 'Monarchy of Lancashire' for example.
More to the point; what would be the purpose of such an article? The Queen did not hold a separate throne and crown in right of Mauritius from her role as Queen of the UK prior to 1968 (so therefore, she wasn't Queen of Mauritius prior to 1968.) like she did after 1968, so what is the point in creating an article about it? It also reflects a fundamental misunderstanding about how monarchies work and how they relate to the concept of sovereignty. Prior to 1968; there was no monarchy in Mauritius; either 'of', 'in', or anything else for that matter. It was simply British territory, and before that Dutch and French territory, and could not conclude treaties with other countries, declare war on other countries, join international organisations, cede or annex territory or anything else a sovereign country can do, which Mauritius, and by extention the Queen of Mauritius (as all treaties, declarations of war, etc. in any; yes,any monarchy are concluded in the name of the monarchy and in theory by them) certainly could in the period from 1968 to 1992. JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 22:51, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
The Queen had a personal flag for use in Mauritius. See the flag on the front of the Queen's car here, here and this video during her visit to Mauritius in 1972. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Ormond ( talk • contribs) 12:38, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
When the Queen visits foreign countries she may do so in single or multiple capacities. For example, in 2010 she addressed the United Nations as ' Head of State of the United Kingdom and 15 other Member States, as well as Head of the 54-member Commonwealth'. When she visited the United States in 1959, it was ' her first, and only, foreign visit' in her capacity as Queen of Canada. She occasionally makes private foreign trips. I see no evidence in the sources provided that her visit to Mauritius was in her capacity as queen of Mauritius as opposed to her capacity as queen of the United Kingdom, or all the realms, or as head of the Commonwealth, or as all three, or a combination, or none of them. DrKay ( talk) 07:12, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
What about her use of her personal flag in right of Mauritius, which was designed for that visit?
If she was visiting in her capacity of Queen of the UK, she'd have used the Royal Standard of the UK, surely? JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 19:38, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
They certainly seem to be used in exactly the same way as the Royal Standard is in the UK, as well as in arms form at the top of the windshield of the car in which she is travelling.
Queen Elizabeth II's Personal Flag, (the blue one with the 'E' cypher alone within a wreath) represents her personally, whether in a commonwealth republic, another monarchy not in a personal union like Malaysia or Eswatini, or in a commonwealth realm that does not have a specific flag designed for her in right of it, and of course, de facto, it has come to be used in her role as Head of the Commonwealth at Commonwealth Heads of Government Meetings, although it is not de jure her flag in right of that particular role.
Also, at least the Canadian flag has been used to represent her in her role as Queen of Canada: at the remembrance ceremonies held in France to celebrate the anniversary of VE day, her Canadian flag was flown, as she was specifically representing Canada on this specific occasion, and not the UK. JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 20:02, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
A nation's parliament can only be opened by its head of state. Mauritius was a Commonwealth realm that time, with the Queen as head of state. And the fact that she opened the Mauritian Parliament in Port Louis in 1972, is clear indication that she visited as Queen of Mauritius. And if she'd come as Queen of the United Kingdom, she would have used the UK Royal Standard, or if as Head of the Commonwealth, she would have used her personal flag.
An except from the article Flags of Elizabeth II: the [personal] flag started to be used in place of the British royal standard when the Queen visits Commonwealth countries where she is not head of state and for Commonwealth occasions in the United Kingdom; it came to symbolise the Queen as Head of the Commonwealth.
So, the fact that she used a distinct Mauritian standard clearly states that she visited as Queen of Mauritius.
Peter Ormond ( talk) 06:57, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Queen of Ghana which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 04:23, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Queen of Ghana which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 03:36, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Queen of Mauritius article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This page was
proposed for deletion by
DrKiernan (
talk ·
contribs) in the past. It was contested by Xoloz ( talk · contribs) |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 12 August 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved to Monarchy of Mauritius. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
On 7 June 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Monarchy of Mauritius. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
Seems like a companion article Monarchy in Mauritius is in order, to cover the period prior to becoming a Commonwealth Realm, when Mauritius had a monarch, but it wasn't of Mauritius, since Mauritius was a dependency, not independent. -- 65.92.180.137 ( talk) 00:35, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
-No; but it is a federal state, because Canada is a federal country. Each of the Canadian provinces shares the sovereignty of Canada; which is vested in the monarchy, and thus each has legally its own crown (as do each of the Australian states too), in a federation under the (not physical) Canadian Crown, which is a very different concept from that of a crown colony, which is a non-sovereign territory that does not have its own crown, let alone its own monarchy. None of the Crown Colonies, nor any of the British Dependent/Overseas Territories have ever been part of the 'monarchical system'; whereas the Canadian Provinces and Australian states most certainly are. There is also the legal concept of 'the Queen in right of Ontario', whereas there was never a legal concept of 'the Queen in right of Mauritius' prior to 1968 (though there was 1968-1992), and neither is there for any of the current British Overseas Territories. The Queen of the UK is not, for example 'Queen of the Falkland Islands'; nor is there such a concept as 'the Queen in right of the Falkland Islands' There is no 'sovereign' of any of these territories in their own right, and to speak of a 'monarch' of them makes as much constitutional sense as having an article dedicated to a non-existent 'Monarchy of Lancashire' for example.
More to the point; what would be the purpose of such an article? The Queen did not hold a separate throne and crown in right of Mauritius from her role as Queen of the UK prior to 1968 (so therefore, she wasn't Queen of Mauritius prior to 1968.) like she did after 1968, so what is the point in creating an article about it? It also reflects a fundamental misunderstanding about how monarchies work and how they relate to the concept of sovereignty. Prior to 1968; there was no monarchy in Mauritius; either 'of', 'in', or anything else for that matter. It was simply British territory, and before that Dutch and French territory, and could not conclude treaties with other countries, declare war on other countries, join international organisations, cede or annex territory or anything else a sovereign country can do, which Mauritius, and by extention the Queen of Mauritius (as all treaties, declarations of war, etc. in any; yes,any monarchy are concluded in the name of the monarchy and in theory by them) certainly could in the period from 1968 to 1992. JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 22:51, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
The Queen had a personal flag for use in Mauritius. See the flag on the front of the Queen's car here, here and this video during her visit to Mauritius in 1972. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Ormond ( talk • contribs) 12:38, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
When the Queen visits foreign countries she may do so in single or multiple capacities. For example, in 2010 she addressed the United Nations as ' Head of State of the United Kingdom and 15 other Member States, as well as Head of the 54-member Commonwealth'. When she visited the United States in 1959, it was ' her first, and only, foreign visit' in her capacity as Queen of Canada. She occasionally makes private foreign trips. I see no evidence in the sources provided that her visit to Mauritius was in her capacity as queen of Mauritius as opposed to her capacity as queen of the United Kingdom, or all the realms, or as head of the Commonwealth, or as all three, or a combination, or none of them. DrKay ( talk) 07:12, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
What about her use of her personal flag in right of Mauritius, which was designed for that visit?
If she was visiting in her capacity of Queen of the UK, she'd have used the Royal Standard of the UK, surely? JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 19:38, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
They certainly seem to be used in exactly the same way as the Royal Standard is in the UK, as well as in arms form at the top of the windshield of the car in which she is travelling.
Queen Elizabeth II's Personal Flag, (the blue one with the 'E' cypher alone within a wreath) represents her personally, whether in a commonwealth republic, another monarchy not in a personal union like Malaysia or Eswatini, or in a commonwealth realm that does not have a specific flag designed for her in right of it, and of course, de facto, it has come to be used in her role as Head of the Commonwealth at Commonwealth Heads of Government Meetings, although it is not de jure her flag in right of that particular role.
Also, at least the Canadian flag has been used to represent her in her role as Queen of Canada: at the remembrance ceremonies held in France to celebrate the anniversary of VE day, her Canadian flag was flown, as she was specifically representing Canada on this specific occasion, and not the UK. JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 20:02, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
A nation's parliament can only be opened by its head of state. Mauritius was a Commonwealth realm that time, with the Queen as head of state. And the fact that she opened the Mauritian Parliament in Port Louis in 1972, is clear indication that she visited as Queen of Mauritius. And if she'd come as Queen of the United Kingdom, she would have used the UK Royal Standard, or if as Head of the Commonwealth, she would have used her personal flag.
An except from the article Flags of Elizabeth II: the [personal] flag started to be used in place of the British royal standard when the Queen visits Commonwealth countries where she is not head of state and for Commonwealth occasions in the United Kingdom; it came to symbolise the Queen as Head of the Commonwealth.
So, the fact that she used a distinct Mauritian standard clearly states that she visited as Queen of Mauritius.
Peter Ormond ( talk) 06:57, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Queen of Ghana which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 04:23, 12 August 2021 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Queen of Ghana which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 03:36, 7 June 2022 (UTC)