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At least around the Quebec City area, I have a strong feeling that in closed syllables, /ɔ/ is unrounded into [ʌ] and in word-final open syllables (following a non-standard pronounciation), it is retracted to [ɒ]. I know that I pronounce ex. "botte" as [bʌt] and "bas" as [bɒ].
My phonetics teacher agreed with me but the problem is that I can't find any article that does. Anyone has any input?
What I'd appreciate a lot is if two speakers, one Quebecois and the other French, read and recorded a sample text for comparison. ______________
It would be helpful if the article weren't so jargonized. I find it very hard to glean useful information here. It seems to be written for professional linguists. Nine999999999s 20:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)nine999999999s
actually, as a native speaker and a university professor of linguistics, I can attest that there is a bunch of non sense or ill-formulated stuff in there. poorly documented as well. needs a MAJOR clean-up 67.68.132.157 05:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Even if Parisian/Metropolitan French merges some of the French vowels, I don't agree when it is said that it merges /ɛ/ and /e/. Apart from merging the declensions -ai/-ais (for the future and the conditional tenses, both pronounced /ɛ/), we can still distinguish "ses" and "sait". Transcendency ( talk) 23:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I understand the reason for the change, since such symbols as ʦ and ʣ are now not considered standard IPA, however I do not believe that changing them to [dz] and [ts] is a better alternative. For one, both /d/ and /t/ affricate before the front high vowels [y] and [i], meaning that they're entirely allophonic to the underlying /d/ and /t/. I think the distinction should be kept in order not to confuse [pət.si] from [pə.tsi], which is generally how the sequence /ts/ (and /dz/) is handled at the exception of word-initially (e.g. tsar). Compare words such as trente-six, where the sequence [ts] can further be reduced to [s] in some speakers. And then you'd also have to consider the assimilation of loan words, whereas most speakers will completely omit final plurals in English words, some others (usually closer to the Ontarian border) won't hesitate to pronounce final stop-fricative sequences (e.g. chats [tʃats]) - Io Katai ( talk) 03:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Some French people pronounce [maʁd͡zi] for the word mardi. Listen here Media:Fr-mardi-fr-ouest.ogg. Fête ( talk) 17:28, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Why Québécois pronounce /faɪ̯t/ instead of /fɛːt/ for the word fête ? Fête —Preceding undated comment added 23:05, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Pronounce "fight" for the word fête is a bad pronunciation ? Fête ( talk) 14:02, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
In Quebec City, the word fête is pronounced /fɛːt/ or /faɛ̯t/ ? Fête ( talk) 13:49, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Diphtongization is not standard ? Teachers have the right to pronounce "fight" for the word fête, isn't it ? 198.105.103.191 ( talk) 20:53, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't relate well to discussions of phonemes in isolation, and I expect there are others like me. 24.69.174.26 ( talk) 05:52, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Kung-fu is often pronounced /kɔŋfu/. Fête —Preceding undated comment added 12:19, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I always heard /œ̃/ is realized as [œ̃˞]. Fête ( talk) 22:46, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
It has been brought to my attention that "-eur" is quite often realised [a˞] and possibly even [œ̞˞] (both r-coloured vowels) in Quebec French. I don't have any evidence to reference apart from anecdote and forvo.com in its example of the pronunciation of the word "dépanneur" [depanœ̞˞]. [1] What do you think? - Nath.king93 ( talk) 09:58, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
It's not a rhotacized vowel but the fricative becomes an uvular approximant at the end of a word. Grumpylaw ( talk) 03:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Hello everyone, instead of diphthongizing, some speakers pronounce /œ/ as [ɶː] before r, but there is no source. 138.229.19.202 ( talk) 16:57, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
These lax vowels seem inclinded to centralise to [ɪ̈] and [ʊ̈] respectively. Again I have nothing more than anecdote and forvo.com [2] [3] as references. I still think they're in complementary distribution but sometimes they seem more centralised — Nath.king93 ( talk) 02:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
The diphthong section lists a lot of diphthongized realizations of long vowels, and could use some reorganization. Here I'll see if making a table will help. The precise placement of some of the diphthongs should probably be adjusted, but this is only a preliminary attempt at classification. I've used the vowel height of the corresponding vowels in the French of France for all but the nasalized vowels.
front, central | back | ||
---|---|---|---|
unrounded | rounded | ||
close | [ɪi̯] | [ʏy̯] | [ʊu̯] |
close-mid | — [ẽɪ̯̃] |
[øʏ̯] — |
[oʊ̯] [ɒ̃ʊ̯̃] |
open-mid | [aɪ̯] | [aœ̯] | [ɑɔ̯] |
open | — [ãʊ̯̃] |
— [ɑʊ̯] |
One thing that seems to be missing is the nasalized rounded mid front vowel, as in un. It's hard to hear in the sample recording whether this is diphthongized, but I presume it is, like the other nasalized vowels, if it isn't merged with the nasalized unrounded mid front vowel, as it is in the French of France. — Eru· tuon 00:04, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
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The phoneme /œ/ and /ə/ are both realized to [œ̈] (parce que 'because', [paʁ̥skœ̈] ), but before /ʁ/, /œ/ is diphthongized to [ɑœ̯] or [ɶœ̯] if it is in the last syllable.
According to the article, Quebec French retains a distinction between /ɛ̃/ and /œ̃/ which are supposed to have merged in Parisian French. As you must know, I was taught Standard European French (neither Meridional not Canadian) at school and these two phonemes were kept thoroughly distinct. My teacher did not even mention the distinction being lost, and she never ever said in for un. While this merger is certainly widespread, it may be substandard rather than standerd Parisian French. Steinbach ( talk) 09:18, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
This article is too technical and incomplete. As a rule of thumb, the basics should come before the details. For non-experts and non-Quebecers to read comfortably, a list that maps letters to sounds is neccessary. I am not capable enough to make a complete one though. A better strategy is that some other editors look for books written for non-linguists and then sort of copy some such table from one of them.-- 110.174.132.162 ( talk) 07:35, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
How would you pronounce atteindre and atteint(e) in Quebec French? Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.198.59.244 ( talk) 17:36, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
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At least around the Quebec City area, I have a strong feeling that in closed syllables, /ɔ/ is unrounded into [ʌ] and in word-final open syllables (following a non-standard pronounciation), it is retracted to [ɒ]. I know that I pronounce ex. "botte" as [bʌt] and "bas" as [bɒ].
My phonetics teacher agreed with me but the problem is that I can't find any article that does. Anyone has any input?
What I'd appreciate a lot is if two speakers, one Quebecois and the other French, read and recorded a sample text for comparison. ______________
It would be helpful if the article weren't so jargonized. I find it very hard to glean useful information here. It seems to be written for professional linguists. Nine999999999s 20:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)nine999999999s
actually, as a native speaker and a university professor of linguistics, I can attest that there is a bunch of non sense or ill-formulated stuff in there. poorly documented as well. needs a MAJOR clean-up 67.68.132.157 05:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Even if Parisian/Metropolitan French merges some of the French vowels, I don't agree when it is said that it merges /ɛ/ and /e/. Apart from merging the declensions -ai/-ais (for the future and the conditional tenses, both pronounced /ɛ/), we can still distinguish "ses" and "sait". Transcendency ( talk) 23:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I understand the reason for the change, since such symbols as ʦ and ʣ are now not considered standard IPA, however I do not believe that changing them to [dz] and [ts] is a better alternative. For one, both /d/ and /t/ affricate before the front high vowels [y] and [i], meaning that they're entirely allophonic to the underlying /d/ and /t/. I think the distinction should be kept in order not to confuse [pət.si] from [pə.tsi], which is generally how the sequence /ts/ (and /dz/) is handled at the exception of word-initially (e.g. tsar). Compare words such as trente-six, where the sequence [ts] can further be reduced to [s] in some speakers. And then you'd also have to consider the assimilation of loan words, whereas most speakers will completely omit final plurals in English words, some others (usually closer to the Ontarian border) won't hesitate to pronounce final stop-fricative sequences (e.g. chats [tʃats]) - Io Katai ( talk) 03:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Some French people pronounce [maʁd͡zi] for the word mardi. Listen here Media:Fr-mardi-fr-ouest.ogg. Fête ( talk) 17:28, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Why Québécois pronounce /faɪ̯t/ instead of /fɛːt/ for the word fête ? Fête —Preceding undated comment added 23:05, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Pronounce "fight" for the word fête is a bad pronunciation ? Fête ( talk) 14:02, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
In Quebec City, the word fête is pronounced /fɛːt/ or /faɛ̯t/ ? Fête ( talk) 13:49, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Diphtongization is not standard ? Teachers have the right to pronounce "fight" for the word fête, isn't it ? 198.105.103.191 ( talk) 20:53, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't relate well to discussions of phonemes in isolation, and I expect there are others like me. 24.69.174.26 ( talk) 05:52, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Kung-fu is often pronounced /kɔŋfu/. Fête —Preceding undated comment added 12:19, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I always heard /œ̃/ is realized as [œ̃˞]. Fête ( talk) 22:46, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
It has been brought to my attention that "-eur" is quite often realised [a˞] and possibly even [œ̞˞] (both r-coloured vowels) in Quebec French. I don't have any evidence to reference apart from anecdote and forvo.com in its example of the pronunciation of the word "dépanneur" [depanœ̞˞]. [1] What do you think? - Nath.king93 ( talk) 09:58, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
It's not a rhotacized vowel but the fricative becomes an uvular approximant at the end of a word. Grumpylaw ( talk) 03:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Hello everyone, instead of diphthongizing, some speakers pronounce /œ/ as [ɶː] before r, but there is no source. 138.229.19.202 ( talk) 16:57, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
These lax vowels seem inclinded to centralise to [ɪ̈] and [ʊ̈] respectively. Again I have nothing more than anecdote and forvo.com [2] [3] as references. I still think they're in complementary distribution but sometimes they seem more centralised — Nath.king93 ( talk) 02:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
The diphthong section lists a lot of diphthongized realizations of long vowels, and could use some reorganization. Here I'll see if making a table will help. The precise placement of some of the diphthongs should probably be adjusted, but this is only a preliminary attempt at classification. I've used the vowel height of the corresponding vowels in the French of France for all but the nasalized vowels.
front, central | back | ||
---|---|---|---|
unrounded | rounded | ||
close | [ɪi̯] | [ʏy̯] | [ʊu̯] |
close-mid | — [ẽɪ̯̃] |
[øʏ̯] — |
[oʊ̯] [ɒ̃ʊ̯̃] |
open-mid | [aɪ̯] | [aœ̯] | [ɑɔ̯] |
open | — [ãʊ̯̃] |
— [ɑʊ̯] |
One thing that seems to be missing is the nasalized rounded mid front vowel, as in un. It's hard to hear in the sample recording whether this is diphthongized, but I presume it is, like the other nasalized vowels, if it isn't merged with the nasalized unrounded mid front vowel, as it is in the French of France. — Eru· tuon 00:04, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
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The phoneme /œ/ and /ə/ are both realized to [œ̈] (parce que 'because', [paʁ̥skœ̈] ), but before /ʁ/, /œ/ is diphthongized to [ɑœ̯] or [ɶœ̯] if it is in the last syllable.
According to the article, Quebec French retains a distinction between /ɛ̃/ and /œ̃/ which are supposed to have merged in Parisian French. As you must know, I was taught Standard European French (neither Meridional not Canadian) at school and these two phonemes were kept thoroughly distinct. My teacher did not even mention the distinction being lost, and she never ever said in for un. While this merger is certainly widespread, it may be substandard rather than standerd Parisian French. Steinbach ( talk) 09:18, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
This article is too technical and incomplete. As a rule of thumb, the basics should come before the details. For non-experts and non-Quebecers to read comfortably, a list that maps letters to sounds is neccessary. I am not capable enough to make a complete one though. A better strategy is that some other editors look for books written for non-linguists and then sort of copy some such table from one of them.-- 110.174.132.162 ( talk) 07:35, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
How would you pronounce atteindre and atteint(e) in Quebec French? Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.198.59.244 ( talk) 17:36, 18 May 2022 (UTC)