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It is untrue that the null device produced unexpected results. They did not know what the results would be, but there was still a possibility for thrust because they never removed the resonant cavity. However, when they removed the resonant cavity, they got no thrust. As such, the information in the second paragraph is absolutely inaccurate and I will be modifying it. Copulative ( talk) 16:05, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Disagree with top poster - the null device did get unexpected results - on the Nasa forum when discussing it Paul M. who helped run the test specifically points out that they used a null device with no ports ( the ports were to release thrust) was used to help rule out heat and other reasons for thrust etc - but to their surprise the null device without ports and the ported device gave the same amount of thrust after doing the calculations for heat thrust etc they found an unexplained amount of additional thrust - They probably used the null device so they could subtract the null devices heat thrust from the test device and get easy thrust answers right away. 4.68.55.4 ( talk) 17:11, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Article appears to be missing research by Chinese team. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.32.16.3 ( talk) 13:56, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
I would not say that they are so dissimilar as to not merit mention of Allen Cullen and the Shawyer EmDrive (which precedes Fetta's Q drive) and the Yang group's and Juan group's work verifying it. The article is too US centric by mentioning only US scientists working in this area (who are conducting important follow on research, but still you owe the predecessors some analysis too). I find the EmDrive page to now be giving a more balanced treatment of the subject matter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive You should consider merging these pages and perhaps putting them under a common title such as Microwave Drive or Q-Drive given the Northwestern Polytechnic University in Xi'an and NASA experimental confirmations of the work. You already acknowledge they are similar drives in reference 2. I still do not understand why Shawyer is not mentioned by name, given he pioneered the application of this engine technology, nor why Allen Cullen's work is omitted. Consider adding a history section to cover the genesis of this concept and its current status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.70.90.208 ( talk) 06:48, 2 August 2014 (UTC))
... They are the same thing - one group is calling it EMdrive - the eagleworks lab is calling it a q thruster because they believe that the physics behind it is related to the quantum vacuum.... It is absolutely the same thing - in the EMdrive you use EM to create a thrust from unknown reasons - in the q-thruster you use EM to create thrust from unknown reasons but the hypothesis is that the reasons are quantum vacuum related. 4.68.55.4 ( talk) 17:11, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
This is irrelevant. Removed. Copulative ( talk) 16:10, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
jps ( talk) 03:01, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
This page is based on a very controversial experiment that has not been published in any peer-reviewed journal yet. Since Wikipedia is not supposed to be a primary source of information, I wonder why this page is here instead than on WikiNews. At least it should be made clear that the controversy is there, not hide the fact. 144.173.208.145 ( talk) 08:22, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Seems like we have a consensus. I'm going to go ahead and close this discussion, and remove the merge header from the article. Will the Great ( talk) 22:59, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
This article is suffering from whitewashing of criticism. As a very bare minimum, if you're going to remove a POV tag, you need to put in an edit comment saying you're doing that. So [1] is bad. You really ought to say *why* you're doing it too William M. Connolley ( talk) 10:05, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
John Baez has described this as "graduate-level baloney", adding that " 'Quantum vacuum virtual plasma' is something you'd say if you failed a course in quantum field theory and then smoked too much weed. There's no such thing as 'virtual plasma' ". See https://plus.google.com/117663015413546257905/posts/WfFtJ8bYVya
The report by Mr. Baez should not be in the article. This guy simply put up a post or article on a blog. That does not make his point of view worthy of mention. If he wants to weigh in, he should have carefully studied the theory behind the quantum thruster concept which Dr. White has discussed in several papers. He should then have published his own paper detailing the physics behind why the theory behind the quantum vacuum thruster does not work. Just because this Mr. Baez has a PHD does not make him worthy of belief. He has not studied the concept. He has not published a paper. As a result, his criticism is totally worthless. His criticism that Dr. White uses the term "quantum vacuum virtual plasma" is totally unfounded. Dr. White was simply drawing an analogy to ordinary plasma thrusters that produce thrust by ionizing gases. Dr. White was simply saying in a similar manner a spacecraft could accelerate virtual particles to create thrust. But Mr. John Baez does not address this, because as far as I can tell, he has not studied the concept in any detail and does not know anything about the theory. He has simply approached the issue that because he has a PHD and is obviously a superior person, he knows everything, and therefore does not need to put forward a detailed and thorough analysis of the subject. Mr. Baez even goes as far as to suggest that the person who coined the term "quantum vacuum plasma" must have failed physics and smoked weed. Dr. WHite has a PHD and has been working in this area for more than a decade. The theory deserves much more respect. The comment that Dr. WHite failed physics smokes weed is unprofessional . There is no reason for this on Wikipedia, in the media or academia. That's not a reasoned critique of the quantum vacuum plasma thruster concept. The recent experiments shows there are virtual particles via the dynamic cashmir effect. It makes sense that if these short lived positrons and electrons are propelled away from a device the device should move in the opposite direction, in accordance with Newton's laws and conservation of momentum. I am not certain the quantum vacuum thruster idea is correct. But it needs some serious critique. I don't think that Mr. Baez blog article is serious and I don't think it belongs on Wikipedia. This is an extremly low quality article from an obviously low quality "academic" who as far as I know has not published any meaningful scientific work on this subject. I think that a good critique or criticism should be put on Wikipedia. But it should come from a reliable and competent source, such as a peer reviewed journal or a credible and detailed media article from someone familiar with the subject matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pomezi ( talk • contribs) 18:12, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
You're missing the point. Mr. Baez's article is not a serious attempt to refute the quantum vacuum plasma approach. As a far as I can tell from the article he has no idea what he's talking about. I think the quality of his blog post is so low and so bad it should not be included. But the real problem is not just that he does not have a detailed and credible analysis of the subject. The major problem is that he mixes up insults with legitimate critique. Saying the person who coined the term "quantum vacuum plasma thruster" failed physics and smoked weed is very very very low blow and so unprofessional that one wishes there was some professional body to censure people like Mr. Baez. If a lawyer or another professional attacked another collegue's integrity by suggesting they did drugs and flunked out of school, they better be prepared to appear before the disciplinary comittee, unless they had something to prove what they're saying. There is nothing to suggests that the several PHDs working at Nasa that wrote the recent article on the subject or have been working on this quantum vacuum plasma thruster concept for close to a decade are using drugs. The comments are defamatory, inapproprate and quite frankly stupid. The experiments have proved that the quantum vacuum can be excited by any electric field or lasers and there should be no reason why these excited virtual particles cannot be accelerated in a megnetic field, just as ordinary or real particles can be accelerated in particle accelerators or Hall Thrusters. So in theory subjecting the vacuum to an intense magnetic and electric field should "move the quantum vacuum virtual particles" in one direction and the spacecraft in the other. It should take an intelligent, detailed, thorough, and painstaking study to prove that this is not possible. Such an analysis would be very welcome. However, accusing the team at Nasa of using drugs and relying on nothing except the fact that you earned a PHD to support your argument is not very credible. The peer review process at least ensures that this kind of sloppy and careless analysis does not make it into the scientific journals. I guess Wikipedia should have lower standards? Wikipedia should accept anything it can get? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pomezi ( talk • contribs) 19:33, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
http://xkcd.com/1404/ William M. Connolley ( talk) 11:37, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Near the top of the article is this text: "According to Harold White, a quantum vacuum plasma thruster-powered spacecraft weighing 90 tonnes would be able to reach Proxima Centauri in ~29.9 years at 4 newtons per kilowatt."
If I take standard physics equations with force, mass, and delta-v, I can show, given 90 tonnes and 4 newtons per kilowatt, that you can get from here to Proxima Centauri in under 5 years. All I do is substitute infinity in the kilowatts applied box, and according to me you get there at light speed.
Q1: how much power would we need to generate continuously for 30 years to get to Proxima Centauri in that time 29.9 years? Q2: do we have any power plants capable of doing that, and plus mass of fuel, still come in under 90 tonnes? Figure your average train engine is in the range of 125-250 tonnes. A typical engine (if I got the math...) produces under 3.4 megawatts/hr, and run for just over 3 days without refueling. 174.29.81.154 ( talk) 17:23, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Sources suggest there is no such thing as "quantum vacuum plasma". Virtual particles in no way, shape, or form constitute any state of matter, let alone a plasma.
Should it perhaps be mentioned in the lede that "plasma" here is a misnomer? Or perhaps should the page instead be "quantum vacuum thruster"?
(Also, the citation on a talk page is REALLY annoying. It looks like it is a reference for whichever section is lowest, even though in this case it applies to my comments. I've removed it and inlined it where it was referenced.) TricksterWolf ( talk) 16:41, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
In Theory of Operation you'll find: "The atomic particles produced by the fluctuations are subsequently electrically ionized to form a plasma." How in the world do you ionize a virtual particle? You can't ionize an electron or a positron. Calling it a plasma is rubbish. It is more like quantum vacuum virtual electron positron pair degenerate matter. Anyone? Mulletronics ( talk) 15:28, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
After exhaustively studying this issue, I am confident the interaction is due to what is presented in reference 22, Donaire, Manuel; Van Tiggelen, Bart; Rikken, Geert (2014). "Transfer of linear momentum from the quantum vacuum to a magnetochiral molecule" 1404. p. 5990. arXiv:1404.5990v1. Bibcode:2014arXiv1404.5990D....coupled with cavity QED /info/en/?search=Cavity_quantum_electrodynamics. Another look by anyone at the issue would be much appreciated. -- Mulletronics ( talk) 23:57, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
If any reactionless drive can work, conservation of momentum is disproved, terminating physics as we know it. One can predict with confidence that this latest effort will end up in the bin with delusions like perpetual motion machines, cold fusion, autism from vaccination, death by aspartame, and shooting bleach to cure cancer. Nothing is wrong with documenting such claims, but they should be documented as fantasies, not as serious contenders for anything but grant money. Doctorate or not, some people will say anything to get grant money. Ornithikos ( talk) 19:50, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
These two sentences appear to contradict each other:
"If correct, this would essentially be ... a falsification of the conservation of momentum and energy..."
"The Q-thruster would not technically be a reactionless drive, because it expels the plasma and thus produces force on the spacecraft in the opposite direction, like a conventional rocket engine."
Setting aside the question of whether the QVPT is possible, would such a device, or would it not, violate conservation of momentum? And how does conservation of energy come into it? Conservation of energy and conservation of momentum are not the same thing. Dausuul ( talk) 21:34, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
"If any reactionless drive can work, conservation of momentum is disproved, terminating physics as we know it."
A egyptian inventor is responsible for the q thruster
http://www.humanipo.com/news/437/19-year-old-girl-in-egypt-invents-a-spacecraft-propulsion-device/
The only known example of an engine that might be a QVPT is the RF resonant cavity thruster (EmDrive, &c). That's likely to remain true for some time. So at one level, it makes sense for this to be compressed into a section of that article.
The main reason for keeping the two separate is that this article is much more tentative, and perhaps shouldn't exist at all. We have experiments showing that these resonant cavity thrusters (RCTs) produce thrust. Whether or not the experiments are right, that's clearly reason to have an article about those thrusters – even as scientists try to work out where the thrust might come from. On the other hand, there's only speculation that QVPTs could possibly exist. And the only slender evidence that they might exist, is that some RCTs can't be explained by other known physics, and this is a hypothesized new type of interaction with vacuum energy that hasn't yet been definitely disproven. That's not a very strong reason to create an article; indeed even today, 5 years after the first research claiming to have demonstrated experimental thrust from such a device, there are no compelling peer-reviewed physics papers describing and defending the theory behind QVPTs.
I'm fine with keeping this as a separate article to allow the main RCT article to improve without flame wars about what a 'quantum vacuum plasma' is. But in another year or so, if this article is kept, it should probably be merged with the other. – SJ + 20:02, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately this topic is on the leading edge of science where theories and speculation get mixed together and reliable references are few. I believe RF cavity thrusters are a passing fad, even if they work as claimed by supporters, there are better devices discussed in private. Quantum vacuum thruster in various synonyms is the only theory at present that could eventually enable space exploration outside the solar system.
The real topic should be the interaction of gravity fields, curved space and electromagnetic fields, for which theories exist, but predict small change of curvature for large electric power. References are scarce and much of it is untested theory and complicated stress energy in difficult mathematics of General Relativity. It is unlikely that Wikipedia principles can be complied with unless the page is written as a report on speculative theories with references.
From Skylab program in the 1970's it was discovered that the lab, a large vehicle of it's time tended to tumble backward to balance the difference of gravity acceleration on opposite ends of the vehicle. One of the gyroscopes burned out trying to keep it from tumbling. In that experience a rescue technique was developed called swimming in space [1] which only works in a gravity field. An astronaut separated from the orbiting vehicle can swim in space to reach the vehicle by using arms and legs with asymmetric rhythm to exploit the small gradient in gravity over the length of a body.
RF resonant cavity thrusters could be exploiting a principle related to swimming in space that only works in a gravity field. If so there are better designs of equipment.
General Relativity allows energy to curve space like in the electromagnetic stress energy tensor [2].
Curved space is just an induced gravity, usually of small magnitude.
The virtual mass is given by E = mc2. Part of the electron mass has long been thought to be induced this way from the electric field [3].
This only works if the energy that goes into a space doesn't come out in any other form.
Induced gravity works just like a small particle dropped to free fall, except the particle is not real and the small curvature it represents can pass through any barrier until it dissipates or is absorbed into a real gravity field. No thrust is predicted in flat space because the induced stress energy stays in the vehicle and approaches the center of mass as it dissipates. So General Relativity allows the RF cavity thruster to work, but only in an external gravity field like swimming in space. The induced stress energy must exit the vehicle to produce thrust and conserve momentum.
Theoretical efficiency of force and power is F = P/v when v2 = 2MG(1/r - 1/r0) from the two body problem [4].
Maximum force works out to 0.1 Newton per Watt of power consumed near the Earth surface, if the curved region has effective height of 9.8 centimeters.
Q-Thrusters and RF Resonant Cavity Thrusters seem to have in common some version of electric power disappearing into space in an asymmetric pattern, specifically a number of patents [5] [6] in which electromagnetic waves are cancelled out to some degree by standing waves creating interference patterns. Efficiency claims are less than allowed by General Relativity, but the descriptions given by the inventors do not show a knowledge of stress energy. Otherwise the claims find no theory or principle to support them in main stream science.
The Q-Thrusters have bigger problem with arguments about virtual particles, but a firmer foundation on directional energy leaving the space at less than light speed. Specialists in this branch of science will not agree on virtual mass acceleration unless it becomes real mass. Then it can accelerate at speeds less than light and give better efficiencies than radio waves. Q-Thrusters do not depend on external gravity, if force is generated internally to accelerate real particles. Weinberg–Witten theorem allows Q-Thrusters because the accelerated particles have spins of ± ½, but tends to oppose the composite stress energy of RF Cavity Resonators.
There is published experimental evidence of electron and positron pairs being created by saturating the vacuum with electromagnetic energy [7] [8] as evidenced by real x-rays created when electrons and positrons collide [9]. A very powerful field is required which in experiments is developed in a LC resonator. In practice part of the energy will always be lost as x-rays, other wise the theoretical efficiencies are the same as the space curvature described above.
To answer the question there is established science that predicts interaction of electromagnetic power with gravity fields, and at least three concrete examples are given for how the power can be applied to create thrust. Two examples predict better efficiencies than directional radio waves. These are examples of field effect propulsion and are an extension of the topics on electric propulsion in space.
Does it belong in Wikipedia? There seems to be an opportunity to upgrade the topic to Wikipedia standards, but also a long history of failure to present these topics in other media. The underlying science is decades old, continually recreated with new names and different machines. I've come to the opinion that the less contentious parts can continue in public view by upgrading the Wikipedia pages but with better explanations and references. Already the talk is too technical to convey a meaning to the editors. Astrojed ( talk) 23:27, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
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While I would prefer if NASA dropped the "plasma" from the name, there seems to be no basis for the page title to be "Quantum vacuum thruster" and abbreviation QVT rather then "Quantum Vacuum Plasma Thruster" (QVPT). given the source material refers exclusively to the later rather then the former. [1] [2] [3] The wikipedia article should reflect the source material and not our own preferences as editors.-- Sparkyscience ( talk) 09:29, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
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-- Marchjuly ( talk) 07:03, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
As of 2021, this article is still mostly a collection of primary sources to repeat over and over that it could be possible, yet it seems that there never was a properly replicated experiment reported in secondary sources? — Paleo Neonate – 20:36, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
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The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
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It is untrue that the null device produced unexpected results. They did not know what the results would be, but there was still a possibility for thrust because they never removed the resonant cavity. However, when they removed the resonant cavity, they got no thrust. As such, the information in the second paragraph is absolutely inaccurate and I will be modifying it. Copulative ( talk) 16:05, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Disagree with top poster - the null device did get unexpected results - on the Nasa forum when discussing it Paul M. who helped run the test specifically points out that they used a null device with no ports ( the ports were to release thrust) was used to help rule out heat and other reasons for thrust etc - but to their surprise the null device without ports and the ported device gave the same amount of thrust after doing the calculations for heat thrust etc they found an unexplained amount of additional thrust - They probably used the null device so they could subtract the null devices heat thrust from the test device and get easy thrust answers right away. 4.68.55.4 ( talk) 17:11, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Article appears to be missing research by Chinese team. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.32.16.3 ( talk) 13:56, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
I would not say that they are so dissimilar as to not merit mention of Allen Cullen and the Shawyer EmDrive (which precedes Fetta's Q drive) and the Yang group's and Juan group's work verifying it. The article is too US centric by mentioning only US scientists working in this area (who are conducting important follow on research, but still you owe the predecessors some analysis too). I find the EmDrive page to now be giving a more balanced treatment of the subject matter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EmDrive You should consider merging these pages and perhaps putting them under a common title such as Microwave Drive or Q-Drive given the Northwestern Polytechnic University in Xi'an and NASA experimental confirmations of the work. You already acknowledge they are similar drives in reference 2. I still do not understand why Shawyer is not mentioned by name, given he pioneered the application of this engine technology, nor why Allen Cullen's work is omitted. Consider adding a history section to cover the genesis of this concept and its current status. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.70.90.208 ( talk) 06:48, 2 August 2014 (UTC))
... They are the same thing - one group is calling it EMdrive - the eagleworks lab is calling it a q thruster because they believe that the physics behind it is related to the quantum vacuum.... It is absolutely the same thing - in the EMdrive you use EM to create a thrust from unknown reasons - in the q-thruster you use EM to create thrust from unknown reasons but the hypothesis is that the reasons are quantum vacuum related. 4.68.55.4 ( talk) 17:11, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
This is irrelevant. Removed. Copulative ( talk) 16:10, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
jps ( talk) 03:01, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
This page is based on a very controversial experiment that has not been published in any peer-reviewed journal yet. Since Wikipedia is not supposed to be a primary source of information, I wonder why this page is here instead than on WikiNews. At least it should be made clear that the controversy is there, not hide the fact. 144.173.208.145 ( talk) 08:22, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Seems like we have a consensus. I'm going to go ahead and close this discussion, and remove the merge header from the article. Will the Great ( talk) 22:59, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
This article is suffering from whitewashing of criticism. As a very bare minimum, if you're going to remove a POV tag, you need to put in an edit comment saying you're doing that. So [1] is bad. You really ought to say *why* you're doing it too William M. Connolley ( talk) 10:05, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
John Baez has described this as "graduate-level baloney", adding that " 'Quantum vacuum virtual plasma' is something you'd say if you failed a course in quantum field theory and then smoked too much weed. There's no such thing as 'virtual plasma' ". See https://plus.google.com/117663015413546257905/posts/WfFtJ8bYVya
The report by Mr. Baez should not be in the article. This guy simply put up a post or article on a blog. That does not make his point of view worthy of mention. If he wants to weigh in, he should have carefully studied the theory behind the quantum thruster concept which Dr. White has discussed in several papers. He should then have published his own paper detailing the physics behind why the theory behind the quantum vacuum thruster does not work. Just because this Mr. Baez has a PHD does not make him worthy of belief. He has not studied the concept. He has not published a paper. As a result, his criticism is totally worthless. His criticism that Dr. White uses the term "quantum vacuum virtual plasma" is totally unfounded. Dr. White was simply drawing an analogy to ordinary plasma thrusters that produce thrust by ionizing gases. Dr. White was simply saying in a similar manner a spacecraft could accelerate virtual particles to create thrust. But Mr. John Baez does not address this, because as far as I can tell, he has not studied the concept in any detail and does not know anything about the theory. He has simply approached the issue that because he has a PHD and is obviously a superior person, he knows everything, and therefore does not need to put forward a detailed and thorough analysis of the subject. Mr. Baez even goes as far as to suggest that the person who coined the term "quantum vacuum plasma" must have failed physics and smoked weed. Dr. WHite has a PHD and has been working in this area for more than a decade. The theory deserves much more respect. The comment that Dr. WHite failed physics smokes weed is unprofessional . There is no reason for this on Wikipedia, in the media or academia. That's not a reasoned critique of the quantum vacuum plasma thruster concept. The recent experiments shows there are virtual particles via the dynamic cashmir effect. It makes sense that if these short lived positrons and electrons are propelled away from a device the device should move in the opposite direction, in accordance with Newton's laws and conservation of momentum. I am not certain the quantum vacuum thruster idea is correct. But it needs some serious critique. I don't think that Mr. Baez blog article is serious and I don't think it belongs on Wikipedia. This is an extremly low quality article from an obviously low quality "academic" who as far as I know has not published any meaningful scientific work on this subject. I think that a good critique or criticism should be put on Wikipedia. But it should come from a reliable and competent source, such as a peer reviewed journal or a credible and detailed media article from someone familiar with the subject matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pomezi ( talk • contribs) 18:12, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
You're missing the point. Mr. Baez's article is not a serious attempt to refute the quantum vacuum plasma approach. As a far as I can tell from the article he has no idea what he's talking about. I think the quality of his blog post is so low and so bad it should not be included. But the real problem is not just that he does not have a detailed and credible analysis of the subject. The major problem is that he mixes up insults with legitimate critique. Saying the person who coined the term "quantum vacuum plasma thruster" failed physics and smoked weed is very very very low blow and so unprofessional that one wishes there was some professional body to censure people like Mr. Baez. If a lawyer or another professional attacked another collegue's integrity by suggesting they did drugs and flunked out of school, they better be prepared to appear before the disciplinary comittee, unless they had something to prove what they're saying. There is nothing to suggests that the several PHDs working at Nasa that wrote the recent article on the subject or have been working on this quantum vacuum plasma thruster concept for close to a decade are using drugs. The comments are defamatory, inapproprate and quite frankly stupid. The experiments have proved that the quantum vacuum can be excited by any electric field or lasers and there should be no reason why these excited virtual particles cannot be accelerated in a megnetic field, just as ordinary or real particles can be accelerated in particle accelerators or Hall Thrusters. So in theory subjecting the vacuum to an intense magnetic and electric field should "move the quantum vacuum virtual particles" in one direction and the spacecraft in the other. It should take an intelligent, detailed, thorough, and painstaking study to prove that this is not possible. Such an analysis would be very welcome. However, accusing the team at Nasa of using drugs and relying on nothing except the fact that you earned a PHD to support your argument is not very credible. The peer review process at least ensures that this kind of sloppy and careless analysis does not make it into the scientific journals. I guess Wikipedia should have lower standards? Wikipedia should accept anything it can get? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pomezi ( talk • contribs) 19:33, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
http://xkcd.com/1404/ William M. Connolley ( talk) 11:37, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
Near the top of the article is this text: "According to Harold White, a quantum vacuum plasma thruster-powered spacecraft weighing 90 tonnes would be able to reach Proxima Centauri in ~29.9 years at 4 newtons per kilowatt."
If I take standard physics equations with force, mass, and delta-v, I can show, given 90 tonnes and 4 newtons per kilowatt, that you can get from here to Proxima Centauri in under 5 years. All I do is substitute infinity in the kilowatts applied box, and according to me you get there at light speed.
Q1: how much power would we need to generate continuously for 30 years to get to Proxima Centauri in that time 29.9 years? Q2: do we have any power plants capable of doing that, and plus mass of fuel, still come in under 90 tonnes? Figure your average train engine is in the range of 125-250 tonnes. A typical engine (if I got the math...) produces under 3.4 megawatts/hr, and run for just over 3 days without refueling. 174.29.81.154 ( talk) 17:23, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
Sources suggest there is no such thing as "quantum vacuum plasma". Virtual particles in no way, shape, or form constitute any state of matter, let alone a plasma.
Should it perhaps be mentioned in the lede that "plasma" here is a misnomer? Or perhaps should the page instead be "quantum vacuum thruster"?
(Also, the citation on a talk page is REALLY annoying. It looks like it is a reference for whichever section is lowest, even though in this case it applies to my comments. I've removed it and inlined it where it was referenced.) TricksterWolf ( talk) 16:41, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
In Theory of Operation you'll find: "The atomic particles produced by the fluctuations are subsequently electrically ionized to form a plasma." How in the world do you ionize a virtual particle? You can't ionize an electron or a positron. Calling it a plasma is rubbish. It is more like quantum vacuum virtual electron positron pair degenerate matter. Anyone? Mulletronics ( talk) 15:28, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
After exhaustively studying this issue, I am confident the interaction is due to what is presented in reference 22, Donaire, Manuel; Van Tiggelen, Bart; Rikken, Geert (2014). "Transfer of linear momentum from the quantum vacuum to a magnetochiral molecule" 1404. p. 5990. arXiv:1404.5990v1. Bibcode:2014arXiv1404.5990D....coupled with cavity QED /info/en/?search=Cavity_quantum_electrodynamics. Another look by anyone at the issue would be much appreciated. -- Mulletronics ( talk) 23:57, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
If any reactionless drive can work, conservation of momentum is disproved, terminating physics as we know it. One can predict with confidence that this latest effort will end up in the bin with delusions like perpetual motion machines, cold fusion, autism from vaccination, death by aspartame, and shooting bleach to cure cancer. Nothing is wrong with documenting such claims, but they should be documented as fantasies, not as serious contenders for anything but grant money. Doctorate or not, some people will say anything to get grant money. Ornithikos ( talk) 19:50, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
These two sentences appear to contradict each other:
"If correct, this would essentially be ... a falsification of the conservation of momentum and energy..."
"The Q-thruster would not technically be a reactionless drive, because it expels the plasma and thus produces force on the spacecraft in the opposite direction, like a conventional rocket engine."
Setting aside the question of whether the QVPT is possible, would such a device, or would it not, violate conservation of momentum? And how does conservation of energy come into it? Conservation of energy and conservation of momentum are not the same thing. Dausuul ( talk) 21:34, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
"If any reactionless drive can work, conservation of momentum is disproved, terminating physics as we know it."
A egyptian inventor is responsible for the q thruster
http://www.humanipo.com/news/437/19-year-old-girl-in-egypt-invents-a-spacecraft-propulsion-device/
The only known example of an engine that might be a QVPT is the RF resonant cavity thruster (EmDrive, &c). That's likely to remain true for some time. So at one level, it makes sense for this to be compressed into a section of that article.
The main reason for keeping the two separate is that this article is much more tentative, and perhaps shouldn't exist at all. We have experiments showing that these resonant cavity thrusters (RCTs) produce thrust. Whether or not the experiments are right, that's clearly reason to have an article about those thrusters – even as scientists try to work out where the thrust might come from. On the other hand, there's only speculation that QVPTs could possibly exist. And the only slender evidence that they might exist, is that some RCTs can't be explained by other known physics, and this is a hypothesized new type of interaction with vacuum energy that hasn't yet been definitely disproven. That's not a very strong reason to create an article; indeed even today, 5 years after the first research claiming to have demonstrated experimental thrust from such a device, there are no compelling peer-reviewed physics papers describing and defending the theory behind QVPTs.
I'm fine with keeping this as a separate article to allow the main RCT article to improve without flame wars about what a 'quantum vacuum plasma' is. But in another year or so, if this article is kept, it should probably be merged with the other. – SJ + 20:02, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately this topic is on the leading edge of science where theories and speculation get mixed together and reliable references are few. I believe RF cavity thrusters are a passing fad, even if they work as claimed by supporters, there are better devices discussed in private. Quantum vacuum thruster in various synonyms is the only theory at present that could eventually enable space exploration outside the solar system.
The real topic should be the interaction of gravity fields, curved space and electromagnetic fields, for which theories exist, but predict small change of curvature for large electric power. References are scarce and much of it is untested theory and complicated stress energy in difficult mathematics of General Relativity. It is unlikely that Wikipedia principles can be complied with unless the page is written as a report on speculative theories with references.
From Skylab program in the 1970's it was discovered that the lab, a large vehicle of it's time tended to tumble backward to balance the difference of gravity acceleration on opposite ends of the vehicle. One of the gyroscopes burned out trying to keep it from tumbling. In that experience a rescue technique was developed called swimming in space [1] which only works in a gravity field. An astronaut separated from the orbiting vehicle can swim in space to reach the vehicle by using arms and legs with asymmetric rhythm to exploit the small gradient in gravity over the length of a body.
RF resonant cavity thrusters could be exploiting a principle related to swimming in space that only works in a gravity field. If so there are better designs of equipment.
General Relativity allows energy to curve space like in the electromagnetic stress energy tensor [2].
Curved space is just an induced gravity, usually of small magnitude.
The virtual mass is given by E = mc2. Part of the electron mass has long been thought to be induced this way from the electric field [3].
This only works if the energy that goes into a space doesn't come out in any other form.
Induced gravity works just like a small particle dropped to free fall, except the particle is not real and the small curvature it represents can pass through any barrier until it dissipates or is absorbed into a real gravity field. No thrust is predicted in flat space because the induced stress energy stays in the vehicle and approaches the center of mass as it dissipates. So General Relativity allows the RF cavity thruster to work, but only in an external gravity field like swimming in space. The induced stress energy must exit the vehicle to produce thrust and conserve momentum.
Theoretical efficiency of force and power is F = P/v when v2 = 2MG(1/r - 1/r0) from the two body problem [4].
Maximum force works out to 0.1 Newton per Watt of power consumed near the Earth surface, if the curved region has effective height of 9.8 centimeters.
Q-Thrusters and RF Resonant Cavity Thrusters seem to have in common some version of electric power disappearing into space in an asymmetric pattern, specifically a number of patents [5] [6] in which electromagnetic waves are cancelled out to some degree by standing waves creating interference patterns. Efficiency claims are less than allowed by General Relativity, but the descriptions given by the inventors do not show a knowledge of stress energy. Otherwise the claims find no theory or principle to support them in main stream science.
The Q-Thrusters have bigger problem with arguments about virtual particles, but a firmer foundation on directional energy leaving the space at less than light speed. Specialists in this branch of science will not agree on virtual mass acceleration unless it becomes real mass. Then it can accelerate at speeds less than light and give better efficiencies than radio waves. Q-Thrusters do not depend on external gravity, if force is generated internally to accelerate real particles. Weinberg–Witten theorem allows Q-Thrusters because the accelerated particles have spins of ± ½, but tends to oppose the composite stress energy of RF Cavity Resonators.
There is published experimental evidence of electron and positron pairs being created by saturating the vacuum with electromagnetic energy [7] [8] as evidenced by real x-rays created when electrons and positrons collide [9]. A very powerful field is required which in experiments is developed in a LC resonator. In practice part of the energy will always be lost as x-rays, other wise the theoretical efficiencies are the same as the space curvature described above.
To answer the question there is established science that predicts interaction of electromagnetic power with gravity fields, and at least three concrete examples are given for how the power can be applied to create thrust. Two examples predict better efficiencies than directional radio waves. These are examples of field effect propulsion and are an extension of the topics on electric propulsion in space.
Does it belong in Wikipedia? There seems to be an opportunity to upgrade the topic to Wikipedia standards, but also a long history of failure to present these topics in other media. The underlying science is decades old, continually recreated with new names and different machines. I've come to the opinion that the less contentious parts can continue in public view by upgrading the Wikipedia pages but with better explanations and references. Already the talk is too technical to convey a meaning to the editors. Astrojed ( talk) 23:27, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
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While I would prefer if NASA dropped the "plasma" from the name, there seems to be no basis for the page title to be "Quantum vacuum thruster" and abbreviation QVT rather then "Quantum Vacuum Plasma Thruster" (QVPT). given the source material refers exclusively to the later rather then the former. [1] [2] [3] The wikipedia article should reflect the source material and not our own preferences as editors.-- Sparkyscience ( talk) 09:29, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
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-- Marchjuly ( talk) 07:03, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
As of 2021, this article is still mostly a collection of primary sources to repeat over and over that it could be possible, yet it seems that there never was a properly replicated experiment reported in secondary sources? — Paleo Neonate – 20:36, 17 February 2021 (UTC)