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I can't find any reference for the term "fallacious insane nonsense"; indeed a Google search turns up no other cite than Wikipedia itself. If this is indeed a widely used term by detractors of this theory, and not just a colorful putdown, then a reference needs to be cited in order to maintain NPOV.
Derek, you added emphasis for total nonsense and, while I am inclined to agree with you that it's nonsense, that emphasis also causes the article to take a non-neutral point of view. Simply stating it and layout out the counter-argument in the following paragraph is sufficient. -- Nate Silva
You've got completely the wrong impression. I worked out the immortality consequence of the Many Worlds Interpretation in the early 1990's and have had a humourous page on the Web describing it since 1995, two years before Tegmark published his paper. See http://www.arbroath.win-uk.net/life.html (That page is now defunct but it has been more recently transferred to http://www.fisheracre.freeserve.co.uk/life.html Ho hum. That page too is now defunct. I'll put it back up when I get my ISP sorted out on a more permanent basis). Now at http://members.shaw.ca/derekross/life.html
Given that, I'm hardly likely to think that the idea is nonsense, let alone try to slant the article to indicate that it is. The only reason that I added emphasis was to point out that the words insane fallacious nonsense were a quote, not that they were true from an NPOV. I don't know where the quote came from and I certainly didn't add it to the article. If you want to de-emphasise it, fine. The article is pretty balanced either way. -- Derek Ross 19:57 Nov 16, 2002 (UTC)
I love the phrase "fallacious insane nonsense" -- FIN should be a new acronym. I just got the wrong idea from the emphasis: that the article was siding with that idea. Sorry for the confusion. -- Nate
Im not well read on this theory, but wouldnt the answer to how alternate-universe physicists possibly survive the nuclear bomb, is bc there will be alternate universes in which the bomb was not set off? or indeed universes where the individual never became a physicist at all? Vroman 22:22 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I've removed the following addition by User:Harry Potter:
There is no indication of why boundlessness is relevant to the discussion. Please feel free to explain. -- Oliver P. 23:44 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with the specifics of this theory, but it seems to me that unless the physicist was immortal in at least one alternate universe, he could not be immortal in them all. That is, even if the bomb doesn't kill him throughout the multiverse, he still dies eventually. -- Neonstarlight 08:00, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
It would mean, that I will live up to about 80, and then I will get older and older but not die, miraculously avoiding death from aging (with telomeres somehow not shortening). As probability of such miracles is extremely small, only my consciousness will get into these parallel universes. Therefore, all people I will met when I will be about 300 will be p- zombies.
Moreover: Every little moment the world I live in is splitting into a bunch of parallel universes, and my consciousness is going always to one and only one of them. Consciousnesses of other people also are going to one and only one of them, and hardly likely they are going to the same parallel universe I'm going. That means, that almost for sure all people I meet and talk to them are actually p- zombies. -- Anonymous reader.
It's me again. How could my consciousness be continued in more than one universe? Suppose there was a deadly duel between two gunslingers from my neighborhood yesterday, Quick Bill vs. Jim the Arrow. Jim won, Bill got killed. But during the duel, I was pretty safe and my survival was not affected by the outcome. So, my consciousness should go to all the universes where Jim won and all the universes where Bill won (excluding those few, where I died for random independent reasons). So why I can see now through my window alive Jim feeding his horse and Bill's funeral on nearby graveyard and not otherwise?
Bill's consciousness went to these universes, where he won and Jim was dead. In these universes, I exist only as p-zombie, otherwise I could see both Bill and Jim alive and dead. Or I have misunderstood something.
The implications of quantum immortality being correct are rather odd, and I think taken together they fail Occam's Razor. (Note that this all applies to quantum suicide as well.)
Frankly, everything postulated under quantum suicide and this page is totally non-falsifiable anyhow because _they can never be observed_. Given that, I think we have to reject both on Occam's Razor grounds. And certainly never suggest to anyone that they actually _perform_ the thought experiment. The results would be messy. Glenn Willen ( Talk) [[]] 21:30, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
What Tim says is true. I would also add that some of your statements don't seem to follow from anything. For instance
I disagree with all three of these statements and would replace them with the two statements
I also find it puzzling that you should say "everything postulated under quantum suicide and this page is totally non-falsifiable anyhow because _they can never be observed_" since the experiment by its nature always has at least one observer. -- Derek Ross | Talk
I find this discussion fascinating, though I really would like to see it expanded on a proper discussion board. Does anyone have a good link where we could let these questions expand properly?
Anyhow, I feel rather confused about the concept of my mind being immortal with certainty under the many worlds-interpretation. Assuming the many-worlds interpretation, many instances of me will exist in these many worlds - but they can not communicate with each other. In some of these worlds, I will continue to exist for ever - but is this the world in which that will be the case? It seems to me that the likelyhood of this current "me" being in the world where the bullet passes safely through my head is exactly equal to the likelyhood of the quantum mechanical effect happening that allows the bullet to safely pass me by. So, when I am sitting there in front of the gun, I whould be really nervous - I will very likely be in the wrong world to survive the event! Of course, there is a world where I will survive - but if that world isn't this one, I won't be able to notice my survival. There is no communication between the worlds.
I'm not sure if this interpretation is quite correct. It assumes a static universe seen from the perspective outside the four usual space/time dimensions. Essentially, it assumes that worlds don't "split" but rather that all have always existed and will all continue to exist. That squarely places the current "me" in one of these worlds (quite probably one where I have a mortal lifespan). There does exist some worlds that have been exactly similar to this one up till the point the gun is fired, but where I do not die. Also there are some worlds (many more) that have been exactly similar to this one, but where I do die when the gun is fired. The probability of being in a world where I die is equal to the probability of the bullet killing me. That also seems to mean that the ratio of the number of worlds where I die to the number of worlds where I live is equal to that probability.
On a completely off tangent note, it also appears to me that the interpretation of many worlds as a static universe (all have always existed and all will always exist - no "splitting") can solve all paradoxes of time travel. One only needs to assume that it is impossible to go back in time on one's own time-line, but that need not prevent one from going back in time on another time-line. If time-travel requires movement to an alternate world, the classic paradoxes vanish. If I go back and kill my ancestors, all I am removing from the history of the world is my alternate self in the alternate time-line I have ended up in. The ancestors of the "me" that goes on murderous rampage are safely alive back in my old time-line. Alternatively; if I go back in time just a bit and meet myself, I am only meeting an alternate me - not my "current" me. So I can easily meet myself even if I know that I didn't. It is simply two different "me" from two different alternate worlds that meet.
What I really would like to know is what the mathematics says about this idea of static multiple worlds. Does it necessarily indicate a universe splitting into more and more worlds as time goes by, or is an interpretation for a static universe with all the infinite number of worlds existing from the start possible? In the former interpretation, time-travel would be very problematic - not so in the latter. Or does the mathematics say nothing at all regarding the question? Anyone who knows? -- Stefan Möhl, Sweden, Lund 23:25, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The consciousness of a person with acute paranoia and or schizophrenia, etc. have been omitted in this entry. How do these fit into so-called quantum immortality? Is a person with mental illness sick forever? Is Down's syndrome eternal. Isn't this a state of consciousness? If there are an infinite number of universes that would mean I could exist in a universe where everything: my wife, my children, my bad notes on the guitar were exactly the same as this one, except one my ears was upside down. This seems unlikely.
If acute paranoia or schizophrenia affected a person's consciousness drastically, there might be an effect. Otherwise I see no reason why they might not live long enough in their personal timelines for cures to be discovered if they were lucky (or not be discovered if they were unlucky).
As for the upside-down ears, quantum immortality is implied by the relationship of the present to the future under the many worlds interpretation, so you would only have upside-down ears in the future if you started off with upside-down ears in the present or if there was some good cause for change. For instance you might look in the mirror and think "I'd look better with upside-down ears. I think that I'll contact a plastic surgeon." and then go ahead with it; or perhaps a group of mad surgeons might kidnap you, cut your ears off and sew them back on again upside-down for their own twisted reasons. But I'm sure that you are perfectly capable of imagining your own unlikely scenarios. The point is that unlikely is not the same thing as impossible. -- Derek Ross | Talk 07:26, 2004 Nov 7 (UTC)
I recall that
Larry Niven wrote a
cautionary
short story about an Earth where it is well-known that the
many-worlds interpretation is true. Consequently, the
suicide rate is very high. Does anyone know which story this is? --[[User:Eequor|
η
υωρ]] 18:48, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Are there practical uses for quantum immortality? Just as a lottery draw was being made, could you hook yourself into some sort of mechanism which would kill you in all the universes where your numbers didn't come up? Thus, from your point of view, you would be guaranteed to win the lottery? Evercat 22:21, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The New Scientist letter pages considered that very situation (a machine gun tied to your lottery numbers) after the magazine ran an article on QI a few years ago. The trouble is that QI only works if the Many Worlds Interpretation of QM is correct. If the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM is correct, you're dead. In fact the practical uses all seem to involve putting yourself into lethal situations so you'd better be pretty sure that it's all going to work before you do it.-- Derek Ross | Talk 23:13, 2004 Nov 7 (UTC)
Can an experiment be constructed which does not require the observer's death, and can be validated by someone other than the observer? --[[User:Eequor|
η
υωρ]] 00:30, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In answer to the original question, one could aim large "planet-busting" asteroids at the Earth. If they kept on not destroying the Earth (from the point of view of its inhabitants), that should allow upwards of four billion people to validate the experiment. Of course the experimenters operating the "asteroid gun" wouldn't have any evidence that the experiment had worked unless they could do so from Earth itself. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I've added some stuff about how a version of the Doomsday Argument, generalized to the many-worlds scenario, might provide an argument against quantum immortality. The details of the generalized argument are deep within a rather long-winded paper that is linked from the Doomsday argument article. I don't know whether it's worth making a separate "Many-worlds Doomsday Argument" article where I can describe the mathematics more fully.
User:John Eastmond 1 Dec 2004
While I can see that the Doomsday argument shows that it is likely that no new humans will be born after a certain date, I can't see how it has anything to say about the individual lifespans of those humans after birth. When it talks about the end of the human race, it is surely talking about the end of new births rather than the death of individuals. Our Doomsday article simply plugs in a value of 80 years for the average (?) human lifespan and then assumes that mankind will die out eighty years after the last birth. Thus it is not clear to me what its relevance to the quantum immortality article is. -- Derek Ross | Talk 20:52, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)
Thinking about it further the confidence level part of the Doomsday argument provides an easy way to harmonise the two arguments. When we say that the human race will have died out by 12,000AD with a 95% confidence level, we are saying (in terms of many worlds) that humanity will have died out in 95% of the worlds but will still exist in 5% of them. Because of the nature of the Doomsday calculation, you need to pick a confidence level less than 100%. Therefore "many worlds Doomsday" would predict that there is always a small percentage of the many worlds in which new humans were still being born and in which therefore, Doomsday never arrives. Note that this is independent of QI itself. Since Doomsday is about the birth of individuals, I, as an immortal individual, might find myself in a future where no other human beings are alive (Doomsday Soon) or in one of the same date where the birth rate is still above zero (Doomsday Later) without affecting the DoomsDay argument. -- Derek Ross | Talk 21:20, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)
The more I think about it the less I can see the relevance of the Doomsday argument here. Reading the new text doesn't help, so I can only conclude that it needs clarification. I have moved the new text here, so that it can be discussed.
These two paragraphs describe the Doomsday argument as it might be if the MW hypothesis is taken into account. I have a minor quibble with the adjective "tree-like" since the structure is more like a network but overall it seems to describe the situation reasonably clearly.
This is the paragraph that I have difficulty with. It jumps to a lot of conclusions without making the steps clear. Also it uses linear concepts such as stream of consciousness where they are not appropriate. In the Many Worlds interpretation, memory may form a stream but consciousness need not. In principle there is surely one consciousness which keeps splitting at decision points, isn't there ? Finally the conclusion seems contradictory. On the one hand it states that there are always versions of the stream of consciousness that have longer lifespans which implies that QI is the outcome and on the other hand it states that as each stream of consciousness has a finite lifespan and so eventually dies, the rather daunting prospect of compulsory immortality is avoided. which denies that QI is the outcome. Which is it ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 22:50, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)
I think you're absolutely right - I haven't made the link between the Doomsday Argument and quantum immortality very clear at all. I'll try to think up a better version of the last paragraph and post it here for discussion -- John Eastmond 13:00, Dec 2 2004 (GMT)
I don't think I could describe the link between the Doomsday Argument and Quantum Immortality in one paragraph. -- John Eastmond 14:15, Dec 8 2004 (UTC)
you might want to mention that the original derivation of the QI argument was made by Hugh Everett himself - as revealed in his correspondence with Keith Lynch.
http://www.hep.upenn.edu/~max/everett/everett23_lynch.html http://www.hep.upenn.edu/~max/everett/
-- Qarl 22:30, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
i think the discussion on the "sleep counter argument" should be edited and possibly removed - it is based on a misinterpretation of QI.
QI predicts that a person will have unending consciousness from their own perspective - not necessarily from the perspective of third parties. this is exactly what happens when a person sleeps - he experiences an unbroken chain of consciousness from falling asleep to waking (the interruption of dreams hurts nothing.)
a (lame) attempt at modifying the article:
as i think about it - the "sleep counter argument" could be modified slightly to make it work. rather than sleep as a break in the chain - the "falling asleep" could be stretched into an infinite decline. this is very similar to Tegmark's decline counter argument.
-- Qarl 23:38, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
no - that's not QI at all. although i shouldn't say so definitely - as there seem to be a variety of QIs floating about.
the Q in QI is a bit of a misnomer - the argument merely relies of copies of a conscious brain. MWI provides a multitude of these copies - but they can come from a variety of sources, not necessarily the branches of MWI (i.e. from an infinite space-time, discussed much further below - from inflationary models of the universe (Tegmark) - from a benevolent advanced alien civilization (Tipler) - from the universes of platonia (Marchal) - etc, etc, etc.)
my point being - when you say "your experience follows a path"... you're assuming we're discussing a branch of the MWI tree. but that's not the case - we're discussing the tree of brain-histories - which need not be temporally or causally related. (for example, if for unexplained reasons a copy of your brain spontaneously appeared 1000 years ago - one of your brain-history-branches would jump there, too.)
so in the case of sleep - when you're lying in bed - one brain-future is you lying awake for one more second, another is you awaking 8 hours later after sleep. -- Qarl 16:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
QI doesn't guarantee that you won't fall asleep or die, it just guarantees that you'll wake up or be resurrected in some fashion. Evercat 16:54, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I also wonder about the possibility of a partial transfer of consciousness from one instant to the next. What happens if one's brain is damaged only partially, is the consciousness the same or not? It seems easy to argue it is not the same, but then that could be generalized to individual brain cell deaths; meaning that no cells/conections that contribute to consciousness can be destroyed, perhaps this could be even further generalized to include the creation of new connections/cells as well. In which case only a static mind would be possible for the future of an observer. My memory tells me that I have been constantly changing (I realize this does not conflict with the above statements), but basically it seems the 'I' in the past has been destroyed at nearly every instant in my life. It seems vaguely feasible to rig an experiment that will kill a consciousness if it does not change between a time interval. Of course, I suppose the apparatus would simpyl fail every time in such a case; the unvierse would not want to be pushed into a universe that did not exist. -- PhoenixPinion , 00:15 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
yes. this is exactly (i think) what Tegmark means when he says he doesn't believe in QI because of "non-quantum decline". -- Qarl 21:11, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
So a few months ago I read about the quantum suicide experiment, and I was sitting on the subway wondering why I wasn't dead yet. Not from natural causes, but I live in a dangerous city and do dangerous things like fly through the air 30,000 ft. above the ground. So I came back to Wikipedia to see if there was a theory on quantum longevity, and found this instead. I was wondering if there is another theory that isn't so far-fetched, that basically says the following:
So putting this all together, we can basically say that, though it's ridiculous that we'll each notice ourselves living forever, we will notice that we live out our lives without experiencing some unnatural death. — Sean κ. ⇔ 18:27, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
yeah - but this begs the question: where do you draw the line between natural/unnatural? analogous to your K-Mark/Wal-Mart shooting: what about an ultra-violet ray that hits my dna - maybe it hits a gene and causes skin cancer, or maybe not. maybe i eat that delicious steak which causes my heart-attack, or maybe not. -- Qarl 21:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Trip: The Light Fantastic 00:20, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
let's not forget that QED allows particles to arbitrarily change position (see electron-tunneling.) there is a non-zero probability that the entire earth will rearrange itself into Al Sharpton's head (example not mine.) living forever is one of the easier things QED can do. -- Qarl 16:56, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
If the universe actually is spatially infinite (flat or open), and non-periodic, then by Kolmogorov's zero-one law everything that is possible happens somewhere - happens an infinite number of times, in fact. That's pretty simple.
Therefore, there is an infinite number of Earths identical or very similar to this one. In most (assuming no major advances in medicine) I'll die before I reach 100; in some I won't. In general, for any imaginable cause of death, there is some way, however unlikely, that it won't happen. Nuclear bomb goes off next to me? The blast and radiation all travel around me. Bullet in the head? Bounces off. Decapitation? Air molecules spontaneously arrange themselves into a new body.
The "laws" that say all these things are "impossible" are, like the second law of thermodynamics, only statistical. They're so unlikely as to be effectively impossible, but given an infinite number of chances they have to happen. And, obviously, on the Earths where they don't happen I won't notice - I'll be dead. Therefore, no matter what, an infinite number of me are going to live forever.
Can somebody tell me if this is wrong?
Nickptar 02:00, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
The reason why QI doesn't apply under the infinite spatially flat universe scenario is that all of the duplicate Earths are independent. There is no communication between them whatsoever. So if you die there is no way that your consciousness can continue in one of your copies: each of which has an independent consciousness. This is different from the many-worlds scenario in which an infinite number of universes may share the same physical past moment (and indeed, under the right circumstances, the same physical future moment), thus allowing communication in a way which cannot occur in a spatially infinite but non-quantum universe. In a spacially infinite, non-quantum universe each copy of you has its own past and future which may be historically identical to that of other copies but which is not physically identical with any other copy. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:38, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
Understood, Bryan. If you'll forgive me for paraphrasing, I have assumed that consciousness is a (communication) process whereas I think that you regard it as an (internal) state. Hence the difference in our viewpoints. Is that a fair summary ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 08:45, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. The current state of knowledge doesn't give us any hint as to which one is more likely to be correct, so it's up to personal preference at the moment. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:20, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
for what it's worth - i'm in with Nickptar. this "thread of consciousness" business is an illusion created by our memories. it's also the position taken by Tipler to make his heavens work. also Bruno Marchal's comp hypothesis. etc. -- Qarl 21:06, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Some interesting questions are raised though, such as:
Trip: The Light Fantastic 00:20, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Also note that it's not necessarily true to say that everyone else dies. If your survival depends upon the survival of one or more other people in an absolutely rock solid matter -- ie it is physically impossible for you to survive unless the other person survives too -- then QI implies that you will both survive. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:15, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
1. Does it mean that there exist subjective probability and objective probability and they differ?
2. Does it mean that it is possible to build a machine for control on probability ("probability control mashine"), which has a quantum connection with a mechanism that triggers quantum event of death of the operator?
3. Does it mean that we could with this machine make everybody, who wants, a popstar or a president or even unlimited dictator - an answer to that class of needs that cannot be realised by classical means (such as production of food, goods, rising productivity and expansion to the space)? -- Nixer
How terrifying would it be to live in a world where everyone around you dies while you miraculously keep on living. A few centuries in your deteriorating body, you'll be wishing for death and all to no avail. -- (Anon)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I can't find any reference for the term "fallacious insane nonsense"; indeed a Google search turns up no other cite than Wikipedia itself. If this is indeed a widely used term by detractors of this theory, and not just a colorful putdown, then a reference needs to be cited in order to maintain NPOV.
Derek, you added emphasis for total nonsense and, while I am inclined to agree with you that it's nonsense, that emphasis also causes the article to take a non-neutral point of view. Simply stating it and layout out the counter-argument in the following paragraph is sufficient. -- Nate Silva
You've got completely the wrong impression. I worked out the immortality consequence of the Many Worlds Interpretation in the early 1990's and have had a humourous page on the Web describing it since 1995, two years before Tegmark published his paper. See http://www.arbroath.win-uk.net/life.html (That page is now defunct but it has been more recently transferred to http://www.fisheracre.freeserve.co.uk/life.html Ho hum. That page too is now defunct. I'll put it back up when I get my ISP sorted out on a more permanent basis). Now at http://members.shaw.ca/derekross/life.html
Given that, I'm hardly likely to think that the idea is nonsense, let alone try to slant the article to indicate that it is. The only reason that I added emphasis was to point out that the words insane fallacious nonsense were a quote, not that they were true from an NPOV. I don't know where the quote came from and I certainly didn't add it to the article. If you want to de-emphasise it, fine. The article is pretty balanced either way. -- Derek Ross 19:57 Nov 16, 2002 (UTC)
I love the phrase "fallacious insane nonsense" -- FIN should be a new acronym. I just got the wrong idea from the emphasis: that the article was siding with that idea. Sorry for the confusion. -- Nate
Im not well read on this theory, but wouldnt the answer to how alternate-universe physicists possibly survive the nuclear bomb, is bc there will be alternate universes in which the bomb was not set off? or indeed universes where the individual never became a physicist at all? Vroman 22:22 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I've removed the following addition by User:Harry Potter:
There is no indication of why boundlessness is relevant to the discussion. Please feel free to explain. -- Oliver P. 23:44 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with the specifics of this theory, but it seems to me that unless the physicist was immortal in at least one alternate universe, he could not be immortal in them all. That is, even if the bomb doesn't kill him throughout the multiverse, he still dies eventually. -- Neonstarlight 08:00, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
It would mean, that I will live up to about 80, and then I will get older and older but not die, miraculously avoiding death from aging (with telomeres somehow not shortening). As probability of such miracles is extremely small, only my consciousness will get into these parallel universes. Therefore, all people I will met when I will be about 300 will be p- zombies.
Moreover: Every little moment the world I live in is splitting into a bunch of parallel universes, and my consciousness is going always to one and only one of them. Consciousnesses of other people also are going to one and only one of them, and hardly likely they are going to the same parallel universe I'm going. That means, that almost for sure all people I meet and talk to them are actually p- zombies. -- Anonymous reader.
It's me again. How could my consciousness be continued in more than one universe? Suppose there was a deadly duel between two gunslingers from my neighborhood yesterday, Quick Bill vs. Jim the Arrow. Jim won, Bill got killed. But during the duel, I was pretty safe and my survival was not affected by the outcome. So, my consciousness should go to all the universes where Jim won and all the universes where Bill won (excluding those few, where I died for random independent reasons). So why I can see now through my window alive Jim feeding his horse and Bill's funeral on nearby graveyard and not otherwise?
Bill's consciousness went to these universes, where he won and Jim was dead. In these universes, I exist only as p-zombie, otherwise I could see both Bill and Jim alive and dead. Or I have misunderstood something.
The implications of quantum immortality being correct are rather odd, and I think taken together they fail Occam's Razor. (Note that this all applies to quantum suicide as well.)
Frankly, everything postulated under quantum suicide and this page is totally non-falsifiable anyhow because _they can never be observed_. Given that, I think we have to reject both on Occam's Razor grounds. And certainly never suggest to anyone that they actually _perform_ the thought experiment. The results would be messy. Glenn Willen ( Talk) [[]] 21:30, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
What Tim says is true. I would also add that some of your statements don't seem to follow from anything. For instance
I disagree with all three of these statements and would replace them with the two statements
I also find it puzzling that you should say "everything postulated under quantum suicide and this page is totally non-falsifiable anyhow because _they can never be observed_" since the experiment by its nature always has at least one observer. -- Derek Ross | Talk
I find this discussion fascinating, though I really would like to see it expanded on a proper discussion board. Does anyone have a good link where we could let these questions expand properly?
Anyhow, I feel rather confused about the concept of my mind being immortal with certainty under the many worlds-interpretation. Assuming the many-worlds interpretation, many instances of me will exist in these many worlds - but they can not communicate with each other. In some of these worlds, I will continue to exist for ever - but is this the world in which that will be the case? It seems to me that the likelyhood of this current "me" being in the world where the bullet passes safely through my head is exactly equal to the likelyhood of the quantum mechanical effect happening that allows the bullet to safely pass me by. So, when I am sitting there in front of the gun, I whould be really nervous - I will very likely be in the wrong world to survive the event! Of course, there is a world where I will survive - but if that world isn't this one, I won't be able to notice my survival. There is no communication between the worlds.
I'm not sure if this interpretation is quite correct. It assumes a static universe seen from the perspective outside the four usual space/time dimensions. Essentially, it assumes that worlds don't "split" but rather that all have always existed and will all continue to exist. That squarely places the current "me" in one of these worlds (quite probably one where I have a mortal lifespan). There does exist some worlds that have been exactly similar to this one up till the point the gun is fired, but where I do not die. Also there are some worlds (many more) that have been exactly similar to this one, but where I do die when the gun is fired. The probability of being in a world where I die is equal to the probability of the bullet killing me. That also seems to mean that the ratio of the number of worlds where I die to the number of worlds where I live is equal to that probability.
On a completely off tangent note, it also appears to me that the interpretation of many worlds as a static universe (all have always existed and all will always exist - no "splitting") can solve all paradoxes of time travel. One only needs to assume that it is impossible to go back in time on one's own time-line, but that need not prevent one from going back in time on another time-line. If time-travel requires movement to an alternate world, the classic paradoxes vanish. If I go back and kill my ancestors, all I am removing from the history of the world is my alternate self in the alternate time-line I have ended up in. The ancestors of the "me" that goes on murderous rampage are safely alive back in my old time-line. Alternatively; if I go back in time just a bit and meet myself, I am only meeting an alternate me - not my "current" me. So I can easily meet myself even if I know that I didn't. It is simply two different "me" from two different alternate worlds that meet.
What I really would like to know is what the mathematics says about this idea of static multiple worlds. Does it necessarily indicate a universe splitting into more and more worlds as time goes by, or is an interpretation for a static universe with all the infinite number of worlds existing from the start possible? In the former interpretation, time-travel would be very problematic - not so in the latter. Or does the mathematics say nothing at all regarding the question? Anyone who knows? -- Stefan Möhl, Sweden, Lund 23:25, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
The consciousness of a person with acute paranoia and or schizophrenia, etc. have been omitted in this entry. How do these fit into so-called quantum immortality? Is a person with mental illness sick forever? Is Down's syndrome eternal. Isn't this a state of consciousness? If there are an infinite number of universes that would mean I could exist in a universe where everything: my wife, my children, my bad notes on the guitar were exactly the same as this one, except one my ears was upside down. This seems unlikely.
If acute paranoia or schizophrenia affected a person's consciousness drastically, there might be an effect. Otherwise I see no reason why they might not live long enough in their personal timelines for cures to be discovered if they were lucky (or not be discovered if they were unlucky).
As for the upside-down ears, quantum immortality is implied by the relationship of the present to the future under the many worlds interpretation, so you would only have upside-down ears in the future if you started off with upside-down ears in the present or if there was some good cause for change. For instance you might look in the mirror and think "I'd look better with upside-down ears. I think that I'll contact a plastic surgeon." and then go ahead with it; or perhaps a group of mad surgeons might kidnap you, cut your ears off and sew them back on again upside-down for their own twisted reasons. But I'm sure that you are perfectly capable of imagining your own unlikely scenarios. The point is that unlikely is not the same thing as impossible. -- Derek Ross | Talk 07:26, 2004 Nov 7 (UTC)
I recall that
Larry Niven wrote a
cautionary
short story about an Earth where it is well-known that the
many-worlds interpretation is true. Consequently, the
suicide rate is very high. Does anyone know which story this is? --[[User:Eequor|
η
υωρ]] 18:48, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Are there practical uses for quantum immortality? Just as a lottery draw was being made, could you hook yourself into some sort of mechanism which would kill you in all the universes where your numbers didn't come up? Thus, from your point of view, you would be guaranteed to win the lottery? Evercat 22:21, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The New Scientist letter pages considered that very situation (a machine gun tied to your lottery numbers) after the magazine ran an article on QI a few years ago. The trouble is that QI only works if the Many Worlds Interpretation of QM is correct. If the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM is correct, you're dead. In fact the practical uses all seem to involve putting yourself into lethal situations so you'd better be pretty sure that it's all going to work before you do it.-- Derek Ross | Talk 23:13, 2004 Nov 7 (UTC)
Can an experiment be constructed which does not require the observer's death, and can be validated by someone other than the observer? --[[User:Eequor|
η
υωρ]] 00:30, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In answer to the original question, one could aim large "planet-busting" asteroids at the Earth. If they kept on not destroying the Earth (from the point of view of its inhabitants), that should allow upwards of four billion people to validate the experiment. Of course the experimenters operating the "asteroid gun" wouldn't have any evidence that the experiment had worked unless they could do so from Earth itself. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:06, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I've added some stuff about how a version of the Doomsday Argument, generalized to the many-worlds scenario, might provide an argument against quantum immortality. The details of the generalized argument are deep within a rather long-winded paper that is linked from the Doomsday argument article. I don't know whether it's worth making a separate "Many-worlds Doomsday Argument" article where I can describe the mathematics more fully.
User:John Eastmond 1 Dec 2004
While I can see that the Doomsday argument shows that it is likely that no new humans will be born after a certain date, I can't see how it has anything to say about the individual lifespans of those humans after birth. When it talks about the end of the human race, it is surely talking about the end of new births rather than the death of individuals. Our Doomsday article simply plugs in a value of 80 years for the average (?) human lifespan and then assumes that mankind will die out eighty years after the last birth. Thus it is not clear to me what its relevance to the quantum immortality article is. -- Derek Ross | Talk 20:52, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)
Thinking about it further the confidence level part of the Doomsday argument provides an easy way to harmonise the two arguments. When we say that the human race will have died out by 12,000AD with a 95% confidence level, we are saying (in terms of many worlds) that humanity will have died out in 95% of the worlds but will still exist in 5% of them. Because of the nature of the Doomsday calculation, you need to pick a confidence level less than 100%. Therefore "many worlds Doomsday" would predict that there is always a small percentage of the many worlds in which new humans were still being born and in which therefore, Doomsday never arrives. Note that this is independent of QI itself. Since Doomsday is about the birth of individuals, I, as an immortal individual, might find myself in a future where no other human beings are alive (Doomsday Soon) or in one of the same date where the birth rate is still above zero (Doomsday Later) without affecting the DoomsDay argument. -- Derek Ross | Talk 21:20, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)
The more I think about it the less I can see the relevance of the Doomsday argument here. Reading the new text doesn't help, so I can only conclude that it needs clarification. I have moved the new text here, so that it can be discussed.
These two paragraphs describe the Doomsday argument as it might be if the MW hypothesis is taken into account. I have a minor quibble with the adjective "tree-like" since the structure is more like a network but overall it seems to describe the situation reasonably clearly.
This is the paragraph that I have difficulty with. It jumps to a lot of conclusions without making the steps clear. Also it uses linear concepts such as stream of consciousness where they are not appropriate. In the Many Worlds interpretation, memory may form a stream but consciousness need not. In principle there is surely one consciousness which keeps splitting at decision points, isn't there ? Finally the conclusion seems contradictory. On the one hand it states that there are always versions of the stream of consciousness that have longer lifespans which implies that QI is the outcome and on the other hand it states that as each stream of consciousness has a finite lifespan and so eventually dies, the rather daunting prospect of compulsory immortality is avoided. which denies that QI is the outcome. Which is it ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 22:50, 2004 Dec 1 (UTC)
I think you're absolutely right - I haven't made the link between the Doomsday Argument and quantum immortality very clear at all. I'll try to think up a better version of the last paragraph and post it here for discussion -- John Eastmond 13:00, Dec 2 2004 (GMT)
I don't think I could describe the link between the Doomsday Argument and Quantum Immortality in one paragraph. -- John Eastmond 14:15, Dec 8 2004 (UTC)
you might want to mention that the original derivation of the QI argument was made by Hugh Everett himself - as revealed in his correspondence with Keith Lynch.
http://www.hep.upenn.edu/~max/everett/everett23_lynch.html http://www.hep.upenn.edu/~max/everett/
-- Qarl 22:30, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
i think the discussion on the "sleep counter argument" should be edited and possibly removed - it is based on a misinterpretation of QI.
QI predicts that a person will have unending consciousness from their own perspective - not necessarily from the perspective of third parties. this is exactly what happens when a person sleeps - he experiences an unbroken chain of consciousness from falling asleep to waking (the interruption of dreams hurts nothing.)
a (lame) attempt at modifying the article:
as i think about it - the "sleep counter argument" could be modified slightly to make it work. rather than sleep as a break in the chain - the "falling asleep" could be stretched into an infinite decline. this is very similar to Tegmark's decline counter argument.
-- Qarl 23:38, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
no - that's not QI at all. although i shouldn't say so definitely - as there seem to be a variety of QIs floating about.
the Q in QI is a bit of a misnomer - the argument merely relies of copies of a conscious brain. MWI provides a multitude of these copies - but they can come from a variety of sources, not necessarily the branches of MWI (i.e. from an infinite space-time, discussed much further below - from inflationary models of the universe (Tegmark) - from a benevolent advanced alien civilization (Tipler) - from the universes of platonia (Marchal) - etc, etc, etc.)
my point being - when you say "your experience follows a path"... you're assuming we're discussing a branch of the MWI tree. but that's not the case - we're discussing the tree of brain-histories - which need not be temporally or causally related. (for example, if for unexplained reasons a copy of your brain spontaneously appeared 1000 years ago - one of your brain-history-branches would jump there, too.)
so in the case of sleep - when you're lying in bed - one brain-future is you lying awake for one more second, another is you awaking 8 hours later after sleep. -- Qarl 16:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
QI doesn't guarantee that you won't fall asleep or die, it just guarantees that you'll wake up or be resurrected in some fashion. Evercat 16:54, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I also wonder about the possibility of a partial transfer of consciousness from one instant to the next. What happens if one's brain is damaged only partially, is the consciousness the same or not? It seems easy to argue it is not the same, but then that could be generalized to individual brain cell deaths; meaning that no cells/conections that contribute to consciousness can be destroyed, perhaps this could be even further generalized to include the creation of new connections/cells as well. In which case only a static mind would be possible for the future of an observer. My memory tells me that I have been constantly changing (I realize this does not conflict with the above statements), but basically it seems the 'I' in the past has been destroyed at nearly every instant in my life. It seems vaguely feasible to rig an experiment that will kill a consciousness if it does not change between a time interval. Of course, I suppose the apparatus would simpyl fail every time in such a case; the unvierse would not want to be pushed into a universe that did not exist. -- PhoenixPinion , 00:15 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
yes. this is exactly (i think) what Tegmark means when he says he doesn't believe in QI because of "non-quantum decline". -- Qarl 21:11, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
So a few months ago I read about the quantum suicide experiment, and I was sitting on the subway wondering why I wasn't dead yet. Not from natural causes, but I live in a dangerous city and do dangerous things like fly through the air 30,000 ft. above the ground. So I came back to Wikipedia to see if there was a theory on quantum longevity, and found this instead. I was wondering if there is another theory that isn't so far-fetched, that basically says the following:
So putting this all together, we can basically say that, though it's ridiculous that we'll each notice ourselves living forever, we will notice that we live out our lives without experiencing some unnatural death. — Sean κ. ⇔ 18:27, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
yeah - but this begs the question: where do you draw the line between natural/unnatural? analogous to your K-Mark/Wal-Mart shooting: what about an ultra-violet ray that hits my dna - maybe it hits a gene and causes skin cancer, or maybe not. maybe i eat that delicious steak which causes my heart-attack, or maybe not. -- Qarl 21:20, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Trip: The Light Fantastic 00:20, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
let's not forget that QED allows particles to arbitrarily change position (see electron-tunneling.) there is a non-zero probability that the entire earth will rearrange itself into Al Sharpton's head (example not mine.) living forever is one of the easier things QED can do. -- Qarl 16:56, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
If the universe actually is spatially infinite (flat or open), and non-periodic, then by Kolmogorov's zero-one law everything that is possible happens somewhere - happens an infinite number of times, in fact. That's pretty simple.
Therefore, there is an infinite number of Earths identical or very similar to this one. In most (assuming no major advances in medicine) I'll die before I reach 100; in some I won't. In general, for any imaginable cause of death, there is some way, however unlikely, that it won't happen. Nuclear bomb goes off next to me? The blast and radiation all travel around me. Bullet in the head? Bounces off. Decapitation? Air molecules spontaneously arrange themselves into a new body.
The "laws" that say all these things are "impossible" are, like the second law of thermodynamics, only statistical. They're so unlikely as to be effectively impossible, but given an infinite number of chances they have to happen. And, obviously, on the Earths where they don't happen I won't notice - I'll be dead. Therefore, no matter what, an infinite number of me are going to live forever.
Can somebody tell me if this is wrong?
Nickptar 02:00, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
The reason why QI doesn't apply under the infinite spatially flat universe scenario is that all of the duplicate Earths are independent. There is no communication between them whatsoever. So if you die there is no way that your consciousness can continue in one of your copies: each of which has an independent consciousness. This is different from the many-worlds scenario in which an infinite number of universes may share the same physical past moment (and indeed, under the right circumstances, the same physical future moment), thus allowing communication in a way which cannot occur in a spatially infinite but non-quantum universe. In a spacially infinite, non-quantum universe each copy of you has its own past and future which may be historically identical to that of other copies but which is not physically identical with any other copy. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:38, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
Understood, Bryan. If you'll forgive me for paraphrasing, I have assumed that consciousness is a (communication) process whereas I think that you regard it as an (internal) state. Hence the difference in our viewpoints. Is that a fair summary ? -- Derek Ross | Talk 08:45, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. The current state of knowledge doesn't give us any hint as to which one is more likely to be correct, so it's up to personal preference at the moment. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:20, May 24, 2005 (UTC)
for what it's worth - i'm in with Nickptar. this "thread of consciousness" business is an illusion created by our memories. it's also the position taken by Tipler to make his heavens work. also Bruno Marchal's comp hypothesis. etc. -- Qarl 21:06, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
Some interesting questions are raised though, such as:
Trip: The Light Fantastic 00:20, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Also note that it's not necessarily true to say that everyone else dies. If your survival depends upon the survival of one or more other people in an absolutely rock solid matter -- ie it is physically impossible for you to survive unless the other person survives too -- then QI implies that you will both survive. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:15, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
1. Does it mean that there exist subjective probability and objective probability and they differ?
2. Does it mean that it is possible to build a machine for control on probability ("probability control mashine"), which has a quantum connection with a mechanism that triggers quantum event of death of the operator?
3. Does it mean that we could with this machine make everybody, who wants, a popstar or a president or even unlimited dictator - an answer to that class of needs that cannot be realised by classical means (such as production of food, goods, rising productivity and expansion to the space)? -- Nixer
How terrifying would it be to live in a world where everyone around you dies while you miraculously keep on living. A few centuries in your deteriorating body, you'll be wishing for death and all to no avail. -- (Anon)