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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Requested move 07:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. The predomimant argument seems to be that the "ash tree" version is far more prevalent than the "zither" version; also the latter now has its article deleted so there isn't anything to disambiguate any more anyway. —
Amakuru (
talk) 22:11, 16 July 2013 (UTC) (
non-admin closure)reply
There are two articles about surnames called "Qin", this one
Qin (surname meaning "ash tree"), and the other one
Qin (surname meaning "zither"); per
WP:PDAB, once disambiguated, the disambiguatory form should not be ambiguous, but this is clearly so, especially with the associated Qin (last name) redirecting to the other article. Clearly this isn't something that should happen. I suggest that both "(surname)" and "(last name)" point to the same article, and that article should be an overview article on all family names, surnames, last names, gens, tribes, clans called "Qin" (be this a set index, a list, a disambiguation page; probably called
Qin (name)), which would then point to other articles that have fuller disambiguation.
65.94.79.6 (
talk) 07:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)reply
"Ash tree" is incorrect. (I was misled by an erroneous Wikitionary entry when I first moved it.) If a revert should be done it should be moved to "pounding grain".
_dk (
talk) 08:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Article is fine as it is currently titled.
Apteva (
talk) 17:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)reply
But if
Qin (surname meaning "zither") exists, another solution needs to be found for this article, as it leaves this only partially disambiguated, i.e. it is still ambiguous, per
WP:PDAB. --
Rob Sinden (
talk) 15:02, 4 July 2013 (UTC)reply
WP:PDAB is a guideline, which means it can be overridden - though there are only 1 or 2 articles in the bands area where fans of the bands have done so.
In ictu oculi (
talk) 03:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC)reply
WP:OTHERSTUFF is not a reason to override the guideline when we have other options. Especially seeing as
WP:PDAB was only recently clarified, and the Nirvana discussion predates this. --
Rob Sinden (
talk) 08:58, 5 July 2013 (UTC)reply
Oppose. This is the only common surname that is spelled Qin. The other one (
Qin (surname meaning "zither")) is extremely rare and not a single article exists about anyone with that surname, either on English or Chinese Wikipedia.
WP:PDAB has been cited as justification for the proposed move, but that is merely a suggestion that is frequently overridden in practice (for example, see
Talk:Nirvana (band)#Requested move). It is especially unsuitable for Chinese topics as the transliteration of Chinese names into English results in numerous homonyms. Besides, the alternatives that have been suggested:
Qin (surname originally meaning "pounding grain") and
Qin (surname meaning "ash tree") are both incorrect, as the surname originates from
Qin (state) which was named after its original capital, a city in modern
Gansu province. By the way, I've studied the history of Qin in depth and wrote WP articles for 28 of the 38 monarchs of the ancient state. -
Zanhe (
talk) 01:23, 5 July 2013 (UTC)reply
In which case, perhaps
Qin (surname meaning "zither") should be deleted as non-notable, as you state that it "is extremely rare and not a single article exists about anyone with that surname, either on English or Chinese Wikipedia". --
Rob Sinden (
talk) 08:58, 5 July 2013 (UTC)reply
Help readers - given that these entries are bordering into wiktionary territory, and given that the majority of readers looking for and using Chinese surnames articles will not be antagonistic towards Chinese surnames, then
Qin (surname 秦, state)Qin (surname 琴, zither) will serve PDAB and readers. The small minority of readers of articles on Chinese surnames who are antagonistic towards Chinese surnames and whose eyes will melt and heads explode on seeing a Chinese surname in the title of an article on a Chinese surname can be given instructions to disable Chinese fonts on their computers or put a paper bag over their head. (tongue not as far in cheek as one might imagine)
In ictu oculi (
talk) 02:09, 5 July 2013 (UTC)reply
Problem solved. I've
WP:PRODdedQin (surname meaning "zither") as non-notable per
Zanhe's comment that it "is extremely rare and not a single article exists about anyone with that surname, either on English or Chinese Wikipedia" and the fact that it was created by the now-blocked user who introduced all these articles that caused this problem in the first place. This will negate the need for disambiguation. --
Rob Sinden (
talk) 09:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)reply
Per
WP:UE, are these really different surnames when they've been romanized the same way? How many of our readers, searching for someone with the surname Qin, will know what that means in Chinese? Put me in favor of consolidating these pages here at
Qin (surname), whatever that means. Oppose, I guess. --
BDD (
talk) 16:45, 10 July 2013 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject China, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
China related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChinaWikipedia:WikiProject ChinaTemplate:WikiProject ChinaChina-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Anthroponymy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
the study of people's names on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AnthroponymyWikipedia:WikiProject AnthroponymyTemplate:WikiProject AnthroponymyAnthroponymy articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Genealogy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Genealogy on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GenealogyWikipedia:WikiProject GenealogyTemplate:WikiProject GenealogyGenealogy articles
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Requested move 07:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: no consensus to move. The predomimant argument seems to be that the "ash tree" version is far more prevalent than the "zither" version; also the latter now has its article deleted so there isn't anything to disambiguate any more anyway. —
Amakuru (
talk) 22:11, 16 July 2013 (UTC) (
non-admin closure)reply
There are two articles about surnames called "Qin", this one
Qin (surname meaning "ash tree"), and the other one
Qin (surname meaning "zither"); per
WP:PDAB, once disambiguated, the disambiguatory form should not be ambiguous, but this is clearly so, especially with the associated Qin (last name) redirecting to the other article. Clearly this isn't something that should happen. I suggest that both "(surname)" and "(last name)" point to the same article, and that article should be an overview article on all family names, surnames, last names, gens, tribes, clans called "Qin" (be this a set index, a list, a disambiguation page; probably called
Qin (name)), which would then point to other articles that have fuller disambiguation.
65.94.79.6 (
talk) 07:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)reply
"Ash tree" is incorrect. (I was misled by an erroneous Wikitionary entry when I first moved it.) If a revert should be done it should be moved to "pounding grain".
_dk (
talk) 08:00, 3 July 2013 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Article is fine as it is currently titled.
Apteva (
talk) 17:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)reply
But if
Qin (surname meaning "zither") exists, another solution needs to be found for this article, as it leaves this only partially disambiguated, i.e. it is still ambiguous, per
WP:PDAB. --
Rob Sinden (
talk) 15:02, 4 July 2013 (UTC)reply
WP:PDAB is a guideline, which means it can be overridden - though there are only 1 or 2 articles in the bands area where fans of the bands have done so.
In ictu oculi (
talk) 03:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC)reply
WP:OTHERSTUFF is not a reason to override the guideline when we have other options. Especially seeing as
WP:PDAB was only recently clarified, and the Nirvana discussion predates this. --
Rob Sinden (
talk) 08:58, 5 July 2013 (UTC)reply
Oppose. This is the only common surname that is spelled Qin. The other one (
Qin (surname meaning "zither")) is extremely rare and not a single article exists about anyone with that surname, either on English or Chinese Wikipedia.
WP:PDAB has been cited as justification for the proposed move, but that is merely a suggestion that is frequently overridden in practice (for example, see
Talk:Nirvana (band)#Requested move). It is especially unsuitable for Chinese topics as the transliteration of Chinese names into English results in numerous homonyms. Besides, the alternatives that have been suggested:
Qin (surname originally meaning "pounding grain") and
Qin (surname meaning "ash tree") are both incorrect, as the surname originates from
Qin (state) which was named after its original capital, a city in modern
Gansu province. By the way, I've studied the history of Qin in depth and wrote WP articles for 28 of the 38 monarchs of the ancient state. -
Zanhe (
talk) 01:23, 5 July 2013 (UTC)reply
In which case, perhaps
Qin (surname meaning "zither") should be deleted as non-notable, as you state that it "is extremely rare and not a single article exists about anyone with that surname, either on English or Chinese Wikipedia". --
Rob Sinden (
talk) 08:58, 5 July 2013 (UTC)reply
Help readers - given that these entries are bordering into wiktionary territory, and given that the majority of readers looking for and using Chinese surnames articles will not be antagonistic towards Chinese surnames, then
Qin (surname 秦, state)Qin (surname 琴, zither) will serve PDAB and readers. The small minority of readers of articles on Chinese surnames who are antagonistic towards Chinese surnames and whose eyes will melt and heads explode on seeing a Chinese surname in the title of an article on a Chinese surname can be given instructions to disable Chinese fonts on their computers or put a paper bag over their head. (tongue not as far in cheek as one might imagine)
In ictu oculi (
talk) 02:09, 5 July 2013 (UTC)reply
Problem solved. I've
WP:PRODdedQin (surname meaning "zither") as non-notable per
Zanhe's comment that it "is extremely rare and not a single article exists about anyone with that surname, either on English or Chinese Wikipedia" and the fact that it was created by the now-blocked user who introduced all these articles that caused this problem in the first place. This will negate the need for disambiguation. --
Rob Sinden (
talk) 09:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)reply
Per
WP:UE, are these really different surnames when they've been romanized the same way? How many of our readers, searching for someone with the surname Qin, will know what that means in Chinese? Put me in favor of consolidating these pages here at
Qin (surname), whatever that means. Oppose, I guess. --
BDD (
talk) 16:45, 10 July 2013 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.