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In the "Teachings" section, the article states: "Pythagoras and his followers reportedly had a spiritual practice known as 'smoke trapping'. This involved entering an enclosed space, typically a cave, and lighting a fire until noxious fumes filled the room. They would inhale the smoke and would experience vivid hallucinations due to oxygen deprivation and hypercapnia. They supposedly would see divine geometric shapes and patterns which they would copy onto the walls with charcoal to be analyzed at a later point."
This might be a hoax, though an amusing one. The source attached to the claim, Cornford, F. M. (1922). "Mysticism and Science in the Pythagorean Tradition", states nothing of the sort. I haven't come across any descriptions of this "pythagorean" practice in the standard literature on Pythagoras or the Pythagoreans. It is fairly often mentioned that Pythagoras was an occasional cave dweller (Diogenes Laertius, Porphyry, among others), but proof of this "smoke trapping" eludes me. Even somewhat tendentious texts on Pythagoras' hallucinations, e.g., Hillman (2008). The Chemical Muse: Drug Use and the Roots of Western Civilization, do not mention smoke trapping. Herodotus has something of the sort in Histories (IV:74-75), but he is writing about Scythians, hemp seeds, and tents. If this claim is substantiated in respectable scholarship, an appropriate source ought to be added. As it is, following the source attached to this paragraphs leads nowhere. Lasseromer ( talk) 14:13, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
"After walking, they bathed, and then assembled in the place where they eat together, not more than ten eating together. Libations and sacrifices were performed with fumigations and frankincense. Then the supper was eaten and finished before sunset."
"He sacrificed to the Gods with millet, cakes and honeycombs and other fumigations. But neither he nor any one of the contemplative philosophers sacrificed animals."
a spell for a dream divination and boasts its lineage from the philosophers Pythagoras and Democritus. For three nights the user must burn frankincense and speak a formula. Before the expected divination, he must burn incense over a laurel branch and go to sleep with it on his head.
footnote: Pliny (24.102, 25.5) often cites the works of these two philosophers in his discussion of plants and their psychoactive properties.
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Evidence has revealed Pythagoras's Journal in Rome with a body holding it. 204.8.62.75 ( talk)
None of the sources listed in the section "Modern secondary sources" are cited in the article, so why does it exist? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 10:44, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
url=
, which attaches the hyperlink to title of the whole book. It should use page=[https://etc.etc.etc.&pg=PAnnn nnn]. So you also reverted my (many) corrections of this error. (By the way, Google has become far more parsimonious with the amount of text it displays to a request for a specific page, so I suspect that many of these links are no longer effective.)Having crashed and burned with my last edit, best I invite comment on this proposal before doing anything in live space.
The See also list currently reads
I would like to expose the wp:short descriptions of these articles, to give readers a clue as to their content, thus:
Any concerns? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 19:03, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
As an adjective, ἰσόψηφος is applied to words in which the values of letters added together make up the same total, like ΝΟΜΟΣ (law) = ΑΡΙΘΜΟΣ (number) = 430, ΔΙΟΣ (of Zeus) = ΘΕΟΣ (deity) = 284; naturally anagrams will share the same value, like ΚΡΑΤΟΣ (strength) = ΑΡΚΤΟΣ (a bear) = 691. A famous example reported by Suetonius (Nero 39, 2) is an indictment of the matricidal emperor,
Νέρων ἰδίαν μητέρα ἀπέκτεινε.
NERO = he slew his own mother.
where both sides of the equality total 1005.
...
Such ἰσόψηφα, found in coins, sculptures, paintings and poems are at the basis of ὀνοματομαντεία, a divination through names, or rather a divination of names, whereby concepts are explained through numerical identity. The point, though, is not 'to find a coincidental equivalence between words. It means that there is a direct relationship between these words,' recalling 'the meaning of "symbol" in the ancient world – objects that participated in and made present the person or object they symbolized.' Hippolytus (Haer. 4.13) gives a detailed explanation of the procedure used, and he speaks of the practice as a 'Pythagorean reckoning' (Πυθαγορείος ψήφος) heeded by 'those who invent a serious philosophy' δι᾽ ἀριθμῶν καὶ στοιχείων, 'through numbers and letters', who believe they can 'prophesy by means of reckonings and numbers, letters and names' (διὰ ψήφων τε καὶ ἀριθμῶν, στοιχείων τε καὶ ὀνομάτων μαντεύεσθαι – 4.14), and also that they can 'discern life' (τὸ ζῆν διακρίνειν – 4.15). It is remarkable that from the earliest datable mention of this practice in Greek literature (Iamblichus, VP 18, 147) there is an association with Pythagoras.
Sorry folks, I KNOW I am supposed to add new topics at the bottom, but (a) there are very serious problems starting in the lead, (b) this article is too important to leave these kind of errors unaddressed and (c) I simply don't have time to prioritize improving the article before requesting reassessment.
I'm hoping to solicit help from previous editors or those with interest and experience making this article more encyclopedic.
Among the biggest problems I see in the lead, one un-sourced assertion that stands out is...
"..many of the accomplishments credited to him likely originated earlier or were made by his colleagues or successors. Some accounts mention that the philosophy associated with Pythagoras was related to mathematics and that numbers were important, but it is debated to what extent, if at all, he actually contributed to mathematics or natural philosophy."
This kind of 'bold statement' (opinionated summary of various opinions) in the lead needs extraordinary proof referenced immediately following with specific examples. Seemingly everyone agrees (including the experts themselves) that almost everything about his life is mere speculation based on apocryphal legends.
The lead should me MUCH shorter, focus on 'little is actually known' and make sure that controversial references to unproven and unprovable stuff like 'aspects of vegetarianism' ?!?!? are moved elsewhere. Writing style and dialectics are also big problems. Vegetarianism is by definition a binary thing -- either you eat ONLY from the plant kingdom or you don't. We are leading readers to the conclusion that not only was Pythagoras preaching about the ethics of eating animal protein, he was also a hypocrite in choosing the 'aspects' of vegetarianism he liked.
I'm going to take a stab at some more-than-minor edits I HOPE will be non-controversial, but well aware that multiple editors here must have shared the PoV's that led to acceptance of the lead as it is.
As I find it, this article gives WP:UNDUE weight to speculations about the silliest and most controversial of these apocryphal tales and could be summed up with a "He was a whack-job", which segues nicely to...'smoke trapping' ElectroNautical ( talk) 15:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please add the following item to «MODERN SECONDARY SOURCES» : ● WISER, Jean-François (2024) Pythagoras' Archives - A Sum of Pythagoreanism / ISBN-13 : 978-2322525287 PYTHAGORE46 ( talk) 20:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Pythagoras article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2,
3Auto-archiving period: 365 days
![]() |
![]() | Pythagoras has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
In the "Teachings" section, the article states: "Pythagoras and his followers reportedly had a spiritual practice known as 'smoke trapping'. This involved entering an enclosed space, typically a cave, and lighting a fire until noxious fumes filled the room. They would inhale the smoke and would experience vivid hallucinations due to oxygen deprivation and hypercapnia. They supposedly would see divine geometric shapes and patterns which they would copy onto the walls with charcoal to be analyzed at a later point."
This might be a hoax, though an amusing one. The source attached to the claim, Cornford, F. M. (1922). "Mysticism and Science in the Pythagorean Tradition", states nothing of the sort. I haven't come across any descriptions of this "pythagorean" practice in the standard literature on Pythagoras or the Pythagoreans. It is fairly often mentioned that Pythagoras was an occasional cave dweller (Diogenes Laertius, Porphyry, among others), but proof of this "smoke trapping" eludes me. Even somewhat tendentious texts on Pythagoras' hallucinations, e.g., Hillman (2008). The Chemical Muse: Drug Use and the Roots of Western Civilization, do not mention smoke trapping. Herodotus has something of the sort in Histories (IV:74-75), but he is writing about Scythians, hemp seeds, and tents. If this claim is substantiated in respectable scholarship, an appropriate source ought to be added. As it is, following the source attached to this paragraphs leads nowhere. Lasseromer ( talk) 14:13, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
"After walking, they bathed, and then assembled in the place where they eat together, not more than ten eating together. Libations and sacrifices were performed with fumigations and frankincense. Then the supper was eaten and finished before sunset."
"He sacrificed to the Gods with millet, cakes and honeycombs and other fumigations. But neither he nor any one of the contemplative philosophers sacrificed animals."
a spell for a dream divination and boasts its lineage from the philosophers Pythagoras and Democritus. For three nights the user must burn frankincense and speak a formula. Before the expected divination, he must burn incense over a laurel branch and go to sleep with it on his head.
footnote: Pliny (24.102, 25.5) often cites the works of these two philosophers in his discussion of plants and their psychoactive properties.
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Evidence has revealed Pythagoras's Journal in Rome with a body holding it. 204.8.62.75 ( talk)
None of the sources listed in the section "Modern secondary sources" are cited in the article, so why does it exist? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 10:44, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
url=
, which attaches the hyperlink to title of the whole book. It should use page=[https://etc.etc.etc.&pg=PAnnn nnn]. So you also reverted my (many) corrections of this error. (By the way, Google has become far more parsimonious with the amount of text it displays to a request for a specific page, so I suspect that many of these links are no longer effective.)Having crashed and burned with my last edit, best I invite comment on this proposal before doing anything in live space.
The See also list currently reads
I would like to expose the wp:short descriptions of these articles, to give readers a clue as to their content, thus:
Any concerns? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 19:03, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
As an adjective, ἰσόψηφος is applied to words in which the values of letters added together make up the same total, like ΝΟΜΟΣ (law) = ΑΡΙΘΜΟΣ (number) = 430, ΔΙΟΣ (of Zeus) = ΘΕΟΣ (deity) = 284; naturally anagrams will share the same value, like ΚΡΑΤΟΣ (strength) = ΑΡΚΤΟΣ (a bear) = 691. A famous example reported by Suetonius (Nero 39, 2) is an indictment of the matricidal emperor,
Νέρων ἰδίαν μητέρα ἀπέκτεινε.
NERO = he slew his own mother.
where both sides of the equality total 1005.
...
Such ἰσόψηφα, found in coins, sculptures, paintings and poems are at the basis of ὀνοματομαντεία, a divination through names, or rather a divination of names, whereby concepts are explained through numerical identity. The point, though, is not 'to find a coincidental equivalence between words. It means that there is a direct relationship between these words,' recalling 'the meaning of "symbol" in the ancient world – objects that participated in and made present the person or object they symbolized.' Hippolytus (Haer. 4.13) gives a detailed explanation of the procedure used, and he speaks of the practice as a 'Pythagorean reckoning' (Πυθαγορείος ψήφος) heeded by 'those who invent a serious philosophy' δι᾽ ἀριθμῶν καὶ στοιχείων, 'through numbers and letters', who believe they can 'prophesy by means of reckonings and numbers, letters and names' (διὰ ψήφων τε καὶ ἀριθμῶν, στοιχείων τε καὶ ὀνομάτων μαντεύεσθαι – 4.14), and also that they can 'discern life' (τὸ ζῆν διακρίνειν – 4.15). It is remarkable that from the earliest datable mention of this practice in Greek literature (Iamblichus, VP 18, 147) there is an association with Pythagoras.
Sorry folks, I KNOW I am supposed to add new topics at the bottom, but (a) there are very serious problems starting in the lead, (b) this article is too important to leave these kind of errors unaddressed and (c) I simply don't have time to prioritize improving the article before requesting reassessment.
I'm hoping to solicit help from previous editors or those with interest and experience making this article more encyclopedic.
Among the biggest problems I see in the lead, one un-sourced assertion that stands out is...
"..many of the accomplishments credited to him likely originated earlier or were made by his colleagues or successors. Some accounts mention that the philosophy associated with Pythagoras was related to mathematics and that numbers were important, but it is debated to what extent, if at all, he actually contributed to mathematics or natural philosophy."
This kind of 'bold statement' (opinionated summary of various opinions) in the lead needs extraordinary proof referenced immediately following with specific examples. Seemingly everyone agrees (including the experts themselves) that almost everything about his life is mere speculation based on apocryphal legends.
The lead should me MUCH shorter, focus on 'little is actually known' and make sure that controversial references to unproven and unprovable stuff like 'aspects of vegetarianism' ?!?!? are moved elsewhere. Writing style and dialectics are also big problems. Vegetarianism is by definition a binary thing -- either you eat ONLY from the plant kingdom or you don't. We are leading readers to the conclusion that not only was Pythagoras preaching about the ethics of eating animal protein, he was also a hypocrite in choosing the 'aspects' of vegetarianism he liked.
I'm going to take a stab at some more-than-minor edits I HOPE will be non-controversial, but well aware that multiple editors here must have shared the PoV's that led to acceptance of the lead as it is.
As I find it, this article gives WP:UNDUE weight to speculations about the silliest and most controversial of these apocryphal tales and could be summed up with a "He was a whack-job", which segues nicely to...'smoke trapping' ElectroNautical ( talk) 15:56, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please add the following item to «MODERN SECONDARY SOURCES» : ● WISER, Jean-François (2024) Pythagoras' Archives - A Sum of Pythagoreanism / ISBN-13 : 978-2322525287 PYTHAGORE46 ( talk) 20:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)