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Wikipedia aims to be a valuable encyclopedic resource. A dispute about the nationality of Pyrros Dimas is a topic that may be dscussed here. However, I would expect this to be a dispute about facts as established by credible references. Please respect Wikipedia and do not post your personal opinions, enlightened or not, about Greeks and Albanians here.
Rule of thumb: If your feel your comment or edit defends a Greek or an Albanian perspective, then you shoud probably not post it. Our freedom to discuss and edit articles in Wkipedia is not there to help us ensure articles have our own prefered bias; it is for us to avoid any such bias. While a certain degree of additional freedom is afforded in talk pages, please do no abuse it. If you want to dispute or add facts and credible references that make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia, then by all means go ahead. But please read the Wikipedia guidelines first.
Miltiadis Kokkonidis (
talk) 11:45, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not here to decide what Mr Dimas is. Pyrros Dimas considers himself an ethnic Greek, being Greece's flagbearer at two Olympics, including Athens 2004. Respect his right to self-determination.
I added a census that shows all Dhimas had Albanian Catholic names. DDo not remove it, but you may change the wording here and there.
Keep it Fake (
talk) 06:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
We must say he is white and not a mexican. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
66.25.139.57 (
talk) 00:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
When Dhimas was born Himara was part of Albania. Place of birth should be written city followed by the country of the time of birth, not a geographical and historical region such as Epirus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.221.201 ( talk) 13:16, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Albania has a small Greek minority when we took in your communist Greeks after your civil war, whether or not Pirro Dhima was a Greek or not is unimportant, he was born in Albania and thats where he grew up. He only migrated to Greece in order to profit from weightlifting. (dr.ilir)
i have also removed your northern epirus bit because it is insulting to my people.
Insulting is also to be afraid to put down your signature. If you feel offended by the term 'North Epirus' I'm sorry, according to wiki standarts you should not. Read the NPOV section Alexikoua ( talk) 14:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Nationality in sport, once clear-cut, has become seriously muddied following the break-up of the Soviet bloc and the increasing transfer of talent from poor to rich countries. example:
Greece naturalized Albanian Pyrros Dimas in 1992 and he went on to win three Olympic weightlifting golds.Dimas born in Himara, Albania to parents [1] of Greek origin, and emigrated to Greece in 1991.-- Taulant23 00:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Has Pyrros Dimas ever called himself Albanian?
Furthermore, Albanians must really have money problems if there are 1.2 million of them in Greece (which I'm sure entered illegally), and hopefully when Greece has an Albanian president, hopeful he would have migrated legitimately and not just stroll over the border.
Lastly, yes you are correct, whatever Greece does (e.g. use names at a nationalistic level) MUST have territorial aspirations, because NO OTHER country does except Greece.
To conclude....... blah, blah, blah, blah.
Φil hellenism 06:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
07:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake ( talk • contribs)
Why are u Greeks afraid of? Why the place where he was born make u guys afraid? Like Alesandros, wtever people can say, he fought for Greece so why does it matter so much where was he born. In Albania,Pyrros or Pirro got his education,trained hard, migrated to Greece in order to profit from weightlifting.
But Greece gave him a lot, and by the way YES, he worked hard for himself and for the name of Greece.-- Taulant23 22:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Well I know his parentsa are Albanian,his mom is still in Albania.She lives in their 3 stories house-- 71.103.71.211 04:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
According to [ [4]][ [5]] and this [ [6]][ [7]] he was born in Himara. Also his official site confirms this [ [8]] Alexikoua ( talk) 17:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I found an interesting interview [11] given to Klan TV on 25/02/05, but broadcasted on 25/11/09, where Pirro Dhima states that he was born in Tirane. He also says that his parents send him to his grandmother in Himare when he was 6 months old and she raised him until he was 6 years old and then he moved back to Tirane. This is the best evidence yet of his place of birth. He also says that he has taught his elder daughter Albanian. Greek or Albanian???.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuxia1 ( talk • contribs) 23:29, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
There is a wikipedia photo of Pyrros here, but no matter how I tried I couldn't paste in this article. If someone could be so kind... additionally, Pyrros has a special relationship with Litohoro in Pieria... I think his wife is from there, but I'm not certain, if someone could also clarify this and add it. Thanx! This guy DESERVES a good article. Kalambaki2 18:29, 23 August 2007 (UTC) Well I got the pic from the article but because its in Greek it wont let me use it in this article.-- Taulant23 23:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I can't make you fall in love with the Albanians or Greeks, nor can I make all of my fellow Albanians fall in love with you. But like it or not, we are FIRST COUSINS! and it's a sad thing to hate your ethnic relatives more than you hate the Slavic or Ottomans invaders.There is lots of confusion and ignorance, but things can change and I think Albanian immigrants could play a key role there.Albania and Greece are helping each other more and more these days. By the way, the albanian origin of the Arvanites or even Pyrros Dimas(Pirro Dhima) only STRENGHTENS Greek/Albanian affinity, it doesn't weaken it.-- Taulant23 23:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Personal Best numbers are utterly wrong. None can squat more than they deadlift! Also, 330Kg squat is rediculous. Where did you get these numbers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.8.167 ( talk) 07:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
www.ramimemushaj.com is *not* a valid source. Athenean ( talk) 08:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
His Professional honors, awards, grants, etc. include the following
Tempus Grant, University of Bremen, Germany (November - December 1995)
TRNS Grant, University of Roskilde, Denmark (July - September 1993)
Fulbright Research Grant, University of California, Berkeley Campus (Sept. 1992 - May 1993)
Cited Foreign Expert, Beijing Foreign Studies University (January 1991)
The 3-rd Class "Naim Frashëri" Order, University of Tirana (1989)
The "Naim Frashëri" Medal, Vlora, Albania (1970)
The "Naim Frashëri" grant as an excellent student (1965 - 1967)
Between his positions are the following:
Editor in chief of the Journal "Studime Albanologjike" 2004~
Editor of the Journal "Studime Albanologjike" 1996 - 2004
Editor of the Journal "Gjuha Jonë" 1995 - 1998
I wish people brought some more scholars like Prof Memushaj in Wikipedia. --
sulmues (
talk) 02:49, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Keep it Fake ( talk) 03:31, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
You are getting many IP address changes and they are not that wrong. Many people feel offended when they read this article and Wikipedia rightly has very good policies in this regard.
Currently the article is reading as follows:
Pyrros Dimas (Greek: Πύρρος Δήμας born in October 13, 1971) is a Greek weightlifter and three-time Olympic champion.
Very good, no one is lying there. No one is saying he does not hold a Greek passport. But there is a problem: This is against the Wikipedia policy here Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Opening_paragraph. According to this policy for Nationality & ethnicity normally the article lead should state in the normal case the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.
Let's take them one by one.
To my fellow editors to pick whether we should say Albanian or Albanian-Greek. Ethnicity should be mentioned in the opening paragraph as it is important for the subject's notability, but right after citizenship which has to either be stated as Albanian or as Albanian-Greek.
Thank you!-- sulmues ( talk) 01:31, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
I'll change the article as per above if no one will respond here in the talk page. -- sulmues ( talk) 18:30, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
As I see the arguments aren't enough for this change. Actually that fact that he was born in Albania is already mentioned in the main text. About the lead:
- People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis, except for those that participated only in competitions that are themselves non-notable.
Since no one answered in the last three months, I made the change and I really think it's NPOV. May both the Albanians and the Greeks enjoy and remember Pirro's victories (not in the classical sense, :-)). -- Sulmues Let's talk 22:48, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
@Athenean. You don't seem to follow wp:athlete and don't seem to understand my reasoning. I demonstrated you that he was notable already when he had no Greek citizenship, simply as a member of the Albania's National Weightlifting Team. As a result, I will tag the article with POV for now and I expect you to go deeper in reading what I wrote, understand it, understand WP:ATHLETE and then revert yourself. The case is complex, but my
version is the closest to Wikipedia's policies. I will also remind you of
the comment of
User:A Stop at Willoughby on this matter.
In addition, please remove yourself with [
this edit. The source is highly reliable and it's coming from Giovanni Armillotta, a professor in the
University of Pisa,
Italy, who fanatically follows Albanian sports since 1970 and comments on them on Italian and Albanian periodicals. In addition that was published in the Futbolli Magazine newspaper, so I really have no clue what more reliable sources you would want.
@Alexikoua. There is no OR, everything is properly sourced as I explained above. If any OR writing was made, it was from Athenean who added that Pirro is named after Pyrrus of Epirus, not sourcing that. Pirro is a very common name in Albania. --
Sulmues
Let's talk 22:19, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
"If any OR writing was made, it was from Athenean who added that Pirro is named after Pyrrus of Epirus, not sourcing that. Pirro is a very common name in Albania." i removed that because it was unnecessary really...but obviously albanian pirro comes from greek pyrrhos and is used in albania to commemorate the king.. 87.202.28.74 ( talk) 01:35, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Nope, it is consistent with MOS and WP:ATHLETE but it seems like you disagree with this Wikipolicies. In the lead we should always have the nationality WHEN NOTABLE. He was notable in 1989 when part of the Albanian National Team, deal with it. At that time, there was no Greek nationality for Dhima. You say that he became famous when he competed for Greece. Probably he became famous for you, for me he was already famous in 1987. For Wiki policies he became famous in 1989 when part of the Albania National Weightlifting team, second in Europe. You are going against wiki rules, although I suggested a very good solution to mention both nationalities in the lead. -- Sulmues Let's talk 00:45, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
guys..first i dont understand whats wrong with including the albanian form of his name in the intro since the article clearly says that he hails from the greek community of himare. actually mentioning it like that is preferable since 'born pirro dhima' can be understood in a number of ways from 'thats how his papers called him' to 'thats how his parents called him'. no need to turn everything into a battleground...my opinion is either intro (preferable) or not at all 87.202.63.171 ( talk) 00:59, 14 June 2010 (UTC) and sulmues please dont make such comments about living people who are featured on wiki.. 87.202.63.171 ( talk) 01:01, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
'He still conserves Tirana's accent in his speech'? 87.202.63.171 ( talk) 01:22, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
That's what the title of the article says. And yes, he spent all his first 21 years only in one city, Tirana, Albania. Added also that he started the sport at 11 and at 14 he started to compete at a juniores level. -- Sulmues Let's talk 01:28, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
@Alexi: Ali Demi? As far as I am concerned you can make him Greek if you find sources. @Athenean: It's not my fault that Pirro Dhima doesn't give interviews on NPR to Charlie Rose but to Parajsa. -- Sulmues Let's talk 01:05, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
you guys arent happy with anything eh..? you either have to remove everything per athenean or add aaanything per sulmues... 87.202.33.34 ( talk) 02:35, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
i agree with you but a mention of the albanian form of his name and the additions about his early performance dont seem to be that harmful..but honestly i dont know what wikirules per future perfect above say 87.202.33.34 ( talk) 02:44, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
Let me be more precise, an Albanian alt. form is useless according to Dimas and contrary to wp:mosbio. Not everyone that was born in country X needs neccesarily an X born name alternative in their 1st line. I can name dozens of Albanians born out of Albania that haven't an alt. name in their lead (Ali Demi or even Fan Noli's born name isn't in lead for example, obviously it's no need to adopt double-standarts in this policy). Alexikoua ( talk) 07:32, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes, but Fan Noli became notable with that name. Ali Demi became notable with that name. Pirro Dhima per WP:Athlete became notable in 1989 with his Albanian name Pirro Dhima as part of the Albanian weightlifting national team. You seem to forget that. You also seem to forget that an admin, FPS, is endorsing my reasoning. Per wp:mosbio: "previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Pirro Dhima became notable as part of the national team of Albania in weightlifting in 1989 per wp:athlete, so it is important to the subject's notability. Thank you and please revert to my version, unless you have anything smart to say. -- Sulmues Let's talk 17:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
As I explained to you already Alexi, [15], you are not notable only if you are a World Champion or Olympic champion, but if you are part of a national team which participates in the World Championship. Per Wiki policies Pirro Dhima gained notability in 1989, not when he became world champion under the Greek flag. How hard is it to understand this? WP:Athlete is only 5 lines long.-- Sulmues Let's talk 00:57, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Alexi, don't tweak things. You are not making sense. On one had you state that you are notable because a champion, on the other you say that you are notable, but you are not that notable. FPS stated that I am right. If we agree that he was notable in 1989, then we have to state his nationality at the time when he was first notable and I go ahead and put my lead as follows. If you disagree, bring the version here in the talk page.
Pyrros Dimas ( Greek: Πύρρος Δήμας, Albanian: Pirro Dhima born in October 13, 1971) is a retired professional weightlifter. He is considered as one of the greatest weightlifters of all times having been three times Olympic champion and three times World Champion. Dimas was born in Albania [1] and competed first for the Albanian team, [2] however he is of Greek ethnicity [3] and received his major sports results under the Greek flag after he emigrated to Greece in 1992.
That I have been for months with this is not an argument. I'll be doing it until you understand WP:Athlete. All I want is to say in the lede that he had Albanian nationality when he became notable to mirror Wiki policies, as I have stated earlier. You are ignoring FPS and becoming disruptive. We may ask for a third opinion that is not from the Balkan areas. If you agree to this lead, fine, otherwise I'll have to bring it to the Content noticeboard. -- Sulmues Let's talk 22:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm albanian. this is what lennox lewis has got "Lennox Claudius Lewis, CM, CBE (born September 2, 1965) is a retired boxer and the most recent Undisputed World Heavyweight Champion. He holds dual British and Canadian citizenship. As an amateur he won gold representing Canada at the 1988 Olympic Games after defeating future World Heavyweight Champion Riddick Bowe in the final." Keeping it fair and square.
References
Moved to Pirro Dhima. Gained notability with this name, so that's what matters. Let me know if you disagree. -- Sulmues ( talk) 15:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC) He was a notable world class weightlifter way prior the year when he emigrated to Greece: as the article shows, he was in the team that brought Albania to second place in Europe. Since his Greek name may be more diffused from Wikipedia based sources, saying that there are more sources with the Greek name is illogical. -- Sulmues ( talk) 15:38, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
I've moved it back, since such a move needs a concensus. If someone believes that a move is needed here it's better to make a move proposal, or at least open discussion (none of the above was done here). Alexikoua ( talk) 16:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Athenean, I do appreciate your efforts but I dont see how describing a region of Albania as "Northern Epirus" is in any way relevant to Pirro Dhima (he himself has not been quoted saying that his birth place is Northern Epirus). What is relevant is his place of birth and his ethnicity. It is well documented that he is of Greek ethnicity and that he was born in Albania. As i have said before: Wikipedia's policy in using historically appropriate names. That means his "official" birthplace is Himare, Albania (full stop). There should be no Prefixes or Suffixes to his birthplace; such as Himare, southern Albania (Northern Epirus).
I also feel that a description of a region of Albania (such as in the current version [16]) is not at all relevant to the article. The explanation of the region should be removed (if people are interested in his birthplace and ethnicity then they can check the Himare and ethnic Greeks pages).
If Pirro Dhima himself has declared that his birth place was "Northern Epirus" then that would be a different matter as we would be reporting on his own perspective. He has not done that yet, but instead, he has stated that he was in Tirane [17] {his first interview to an Albanian TV channel ( TV Klan)} and there is this [18] which has already been used numerous times in this article (surprisingly the Tirane bit has been overlooked) that backs the Tirane birthplace. I think that this needs a mention in the articles as its his take on his life and after all we are reporting on his life. kuxia1 22:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuxia1 ( talk • contribs)
I would like to compare the issue of the use of the above term to the term "Western Thrace". It is well known that Thrace is not a region belonging exclusively to Greece or Turkey but one that spreads across Greece, Turkey and Bulgaria. The terms Western Thrace and Eastern Thrace are mutually accepted by Greece and Turkey since they are mentioned in treaties such as the Lausanne Treaty. It is also known that historically all parts of Thrace have been inhabited by both muslims and christians (although there are not christians anymore in turkish E.Thrace). Even if Greek Thrace is often refered to by Greeks as simply "Thraki" (Thrace), any educated person knows that "Thraki" is not all Thrace.
A similar situation applies to Epirus. It is illogical to believe that the historical region of Epirus ends exactly where the borders were agreed to be in 1914, although Greece officialy names one of its peripheries Epirus (not Southern Epirus). In reality, the southern part (including the most significant city Ioannina) was ceded to Greece whereas the northern part was ceded to Albania and thus became known as "Northern Epirus". The term "Northern Epirus" is mutually accepted by Albania and Greece, since the signing of the Protocol of Corfu between the Albanian Gorverment and the Provisional Government of Northern Epirus (which represented the local greek population) in 1914. The use of the term, even today is not necessary to have an irredentist sense, just a geographical one.
All in all, official (nowadays) or not, widely used or usually avoided, Northern Epirus (including Himara) is a mutually accepted term while the local Greeks in Albania, concetrated in the South, connect closely themeselves to the region of Epirus and they are self determined as "northern Epirotes". Concequently, there is no reason for Northern Epirus not to be cited as birthplace of Pyrros Dimas, an etnic Greek from Himara, without notes or explanations. All evidence show the oppposite.
P.S.The phrase in the article "Himarë, Albania, part of an area referred to [only] by Greeks as Northern Epirus" seems be misleading, leading someone to believe that Albania does not accept or/and has never accepted this term.
Routhramiotis
Ρουθραμιώτης ( talk) 18:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Pirro Dhima is a Greek because he decided to be a Greek not because he is a Greek. In the same position like him was also Mirela Manjani or Luan Shabani but they never denied their Albanian origin like Pirro did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.69.6.254 ( talk) 14:15, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Typical albanian ultra-nationalistic propaganda. Unlike Manjani and possibly Sabani who are Albanians, Dimas is member of the Greek minority of Albania. Pavlos1988 ( talk) 02:13, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Oh, you must also know that Pyrros Dimas' father, Viktoras, in 2007 Greek election, was a candidate of the conservative, patriotic and a little bit nationalistic party Democratic Revival. Από την ίδια κατηγορία των «συγγενών αστέρων» άντλησε και ο πρόεδρος της Δημοκρατικής Αναγέννησης κ. Στέλιος Παπαθεμελής την υποψηφιότητα του πατέρα του ολυμπιονίκη κ. Πύρρου Δήμα, Βίκτωρα. Pavlos1988 ( talk) 02:25, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
If the Greek spelling of his name given in this article is correct, the english translation should be Pyrros Deimas, not Pyrros Dimas ! Tvx1 ( talk) 19:13, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
The article deals with a biography & the person comes from a historical-cultural region which is defined by the specific community he belongs as N. Epirus. I see no reason for censorship in this case. Greek communities including Dimas declare that they come from the specific region, thus there is no reason to get rid of this essential detail for this article. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:49, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
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This declaration appears to be fully wp:POV. Both terms are used in the same irredentist context but also both of the have it's historical side. Claiming that the one is more correct in historic context isn't cool and it's actually POV pushing. In the case of P. Dimas he has declared himself as N.Epirote. It's a Greek ethno/geographic term and it's widely used in this context (like Pontic Greek etc). Pardon me but there is no offence at all if someone declares himself as being part of the specific community in this way. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:44, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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Wikipedia aims to be a valuable encyclopedic resource. A dispute about the nationality of Pyrros Dimas is a topic that may be dscussed here. However, I would expect this to be a dispute about facts as established by credible references. Please respect Wikipedia and do not post your personal opinions, enlightened or not, about Greeks and Albanians here.
Rule of thumb: If your feel your comment or edit defends a Greek or an Albanian perspective, then you shoud probably not post it. Our freedom to discuss and edit articles in Wkipedia is not there to help us ensure articles have our own prefered bias; it is for us to avoid any such bias. While a certain degree of additional freedom is afforded in talk pages, please do no abuse it. If you want to dispute or add facts and credible references that make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia, then by all means go ahead. But please read the Wikipedia guidelines first.
Miltiadis Kokkonidis (
talk) 11:45, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not here to decide what Mr Dimas is. Pyrros Dimas considers himself an ethnic Greek, being Greece's flagbearer at two Olympics, including Athens 2004. Respect his right to self-determination.
I added a census that shows all Dhimas had Albanian Catholic names. DDo not remove it, but you may change the wording here and there.
Keep it Fake (
talk) 06:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
We must say he is white and not a mexican. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
66.25.139.57 (
talk) 00:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
When Dhimas was born Himara was part of Albania. Place of birth should be written city followed by the country of the time of birth, not a geographical and historical region such as Epirus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.107.221.201 ( talk) 13:16, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Albania has a small Greek minority when we took in your communist Greeks after your civil war, whether or not Pirro Dhima was a Greek or not is unimportant, he was born in Albania and thats where he grew up. He only migrated to Greece in order to profit from weightlifting. (dr.ilir)
i have also removed your northern epirus bit because it is insulting to my people.
Insulting is also to be afraid to put down your signature. If you feel offended by the term 'North Epirus' I'm sorry, according to wiki standarts you should not. Read the NPOV section Alexikoua ( talk) 14:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Nationality in sport, once clear-cut, has become seriously muddied following the break-up of the Soviet bloc and the increasing transfer of talent from poor to rich countries. example:
Greece naturalized Albanian Pyrros Dimas in 1992 and he went on to win three Olympic weightlifting golds.Dimas born in Himara, Albania to parents [1] of Greek origin, and emigrated to Greece in 1991.-- Taulant23 00:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Has Pyrros Dimas ever called himself Albanian?
Furthermore, Albanians must really have money problems if there are 1.2 million of them in Greece (which I'm sure entered illegally), and hopefully when Greece has an Albanian president, hopeful he would have migrated legitimately and not just stroll over the border.
Lastly, yes you are correct, whatever Greece does (e.g. use names at a nationalistic level) MUST have territorial aspirations, because NO OTHER country does except Greece.
To conclude....... blah, blah, blah, blah.
Φil hellenism 06:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
07:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake ( talk • contribs)
Why are u Greeks afraid of? Why the place where he was born make u guys afraid? Like Alesandros, wtever people can say, he fought for Greece so why does it matter so much where was he born. In Albania,Pyrros or Pirro got his education,trained hard, migrated to Greece in order to profit from weightlifting.
But Greece gave him a lot, and by the way YES, he worked hard for himself and for the name of Greece.-- Taulant23 22:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Well I know his parentsa are Albanian,his mom is still in Albania.She lives in their 3 stories house-- 71.103.71.211 04:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
According to [ [4]][ [5]] and this [ [6]][ [7]] he was born in Himara. Also his official site confirms this [ [8]] Alexikoua ( talk) 17:07, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I found an interesting interview [11] given to Klan TV on 25/02/05, but broadcasted on 25/11/09, where Pirro Dhima states that he was born in Tirane. He also says that his parents send him to his grandmother in Himare when he was 6 months old and she raised him until he was 6 years old and then he moved back to Tirane. This is the best evidence yet of his place of birth. He also says that he has taught his elder daughter Albanian. Greek or Albanian???.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuxia1 ( talk • contribs) 23:29, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
There is a wikipedia photo of Pyrros here, but no matter how I tried I couldn't paste in this article. If someone could be so kind... additionally, Pyrros has a special relationship with Litohoro in Pieria... I think his wife is from there, but I'm not certain, if someone could also clarify this and add it. Thanx! This guy DESERVES a good article. Kalambaki2 18:29, 23 August 2007 (UTC) Well I got the pic from the article but because its in Greek it wont let me use it in this article.-- Taulant23 23:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I can't make you fall in love with the Albanians or Greeks, nor can I make all of my fellow Albanians fall in love with you. But like it or not, we are FIRST COUSINS! and it's a sad thing to hate your ethnic relatives more than you hate the Slavic or Ottomans invaders.There is lots of confusion and ignorance, but things can change and I think Albanian immigrants could play a key role there.Albania and Greece are helping each other more and more these days. By the way, the albanian origin of the Arvanites or even Pyrros Dimas(Pirro Dhima) only STRENGHTENS Greek/Albanian affinity, it doesn't weaken it.-- Taulant23 23:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Personal Best numbers are utterly wrong. None can squat more than they deadlift! Also, 330Kg squat is rediculous. Where did you get these numbers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.8.167 ( talk) 07:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
www.ramimemushaj.com is *not* a valid source. Athenean ( talk) 08:16, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
His Professional honors, awards, grants, etc. include the following
Tempus Grant, University of Bremen, Germany (November - December 1995)
TRNS Grant, University of Roskilde, Denmark (July - September 1993)
Fulbright Research Grant, University of California, Berkeley Campus (Sept. 1992 - May 1993)
Cited Foreign Expert, Beijing Foreign Studies University (January 1991)
The 3-rd Class "Naim Frashëri" Order, University of Tirana (1989)
The "Naim Frashëri" Medal, Vlora, Albania (1970)
The "Naim Frashëri" grant as an excellent student (1965 - 1967)
Between his positions are the following:
Editor in chief of the Journal "Studime Albanologjike" 2004~
Editor of the Journal "Studime Albanologjike" 1996 - 2004
Editor of the Journal "Gjuha Jonë" 1995 - 1998
I wish people brought some more scholars like Prof Memushaj in Wikipedia. --
sulmues (
talk) 02:49, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Keep it Fake ( talk) 03:31, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
You are getting many IP address changes and they are not that wrong. Many people feel offended when they read this article and Wikipedia rightly has very good policies in this regard.
Currently the article is reading as follows:
Pyrros Dimas (Greek: Πύρρος Δήμας born in October 13, 1971) is a Greek weightlifter and three-time Olympic champion.
Very good, no one is lying there. No one is saying he does not hold a Greek passport. But there is a problem: This is against the Wikipedia policy here Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Opening_paragraph. According to this policy for Nationality & ethnicity normally the article lead should state in the normal case the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.
Let's take them one by one.
To my fellow editors to pick whether we should say Albanian or Albanian-Greek. Ethnicity should be mentioned in the opening paragraph as it is important for the subject's notability, but right after citizenship which has to either be stated as Albanian or as Albanian-Greek.
Thank you!-- sulmues ( talk) 01:31, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
I'll change the article as per above if no one will respond here in the talk page. -- sulmues ( talk) 18:30, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
As I see the arguments aren't enough for this change. Actually that fact that he was born in Albania is already mentioned in the main text. About the lead:
- People who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis, except for those that participated only in competitions that are themselves non-notable.
Since no one answered in the last three months, I made the change and I really think it's NPOV. May both the Albanians and the Greeks enjoy and remember Pirro's victories (not in the classical sense, :-)). -- Sulmues Let's talk 22:48, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
@Athenean. You don't seem to follow wp:athlete and don't seem to understand my reasoning. I demonstrated you that he was notable already when he had no Greek citizenship, simply as a member of the Albania's National Weightlifting Team. As a result, I will tag the article with POV for now and I expect you to go deeper in reading what I wrote, understand it, understand WP:ATHLETE and then revert yourself. The case is complex, but my
version is the closest to Wikipedia's policies. I will also remind you of
the comment of
User:A Stop at Willoughby on this matter.
In addition, please remove yourself with [
this edit. The source is highly reliable and it's coming from Giovanni Armillotta, a professor in the
University of Pisa,
Italy, who fanatically follows Albanian sports since 1970 and comments on them on Italian and Albanian periodicals. In addition that was published in the Futbolli Magazine newspaper, so I really have no clue what more reliable sources you would want.
@Alexikoua. There is no OR, everything is properly sourced as I explained above. If any OR writing was made, it was from Athenean who added that Pirro is named after Pyrrus of Epirus, not sourcing that. Pirro is a very common name in Albania. --
Sulmues
Let's talk 22:19, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
"If any OR writing was made, it was from Athenean who added that Pirro is named after Pyrrus of Epirus, not sourcing that. Pirro is a very common name in Albania." i removed that because it was unnecessary really...but obviously albanian pirro comes from greek pyrrhos and is used in albania to commemorate the king.. 87.202.28.74 ( talk) 01:35, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
Nope, it is consistent with MOS and WP:ATHLETE but it seems like you disagree with this Wikipolicies. In the lead we should always have the nationality WHEN NOTABLE. He was notable in 1989 when part of the Albanian National Team, deal with it. At that time, there was no Greek nationality for Dhima. You say that he became famous when he competed for Greece. Probably he became famous for you, for me he was already famous in 1987. For Wiki policies he became famous in 1989 when part of the Albania National Weightlifting team, second in Europe. You are going against wiki rules, although I suggested a very good solution to mention both nationalities in the lead. -- Sulmues Let's talk 00:45, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
guys..first i dont understand whats wrong with including the albanian form of his name in the intro since the article clearly says that he hails from the greek community of himare. actually mentioning it like that is preferable since 'born pirro dhima' can be understood in a number of ways from 'thats how his papers called him' to 'thats how his parents called him'. no need to turn everything into a battleground...my opinion is either intro (preferable) or not at all 87.202.63.171 ( talk) 00:59, 14 June 2010 (UTC) and sulmues please dont make such comments about living people who are featured on wiki.. 87.202.63.171 ( talk) 01:01, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
'He still conserves Tirana's accent in his speech'? 87.202.63.171 ( talk) 01:22, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
That's what the title of the article says. And yes, he spent all his first 21 years only in one city, Tirana, Albania. Added also that he started the sport at 11 and at 14 he started to compete at a juniores level. -- Sulmues Let's talk 01:28, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
@Alexi: Ali Demi? As far as I am concerned you can make him Greek if you find sources. @Athenean: It's not my fault that Pirro Dhima doesn't give interviews on NPR to Charlie Rose but to Parajsa. -- Sulmues Let's talk 01:05, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
you guys arent happy with anything eh..? you either have to remove everything per athenean or add aaanything per sulmues... 87.202.33.34 ( talk) 02:35, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
i agree with you but a mention of the albanian form of his name and the additions about his early performance dont seem to be that harmful..but honestly i dont know what wikirules per future perfect above say 87.202.33.34 ( talk) 02:44, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
Let me be more precise, an Albanian alt. form is useless according to Dimas and contrary to wp:mosbio. Not everyone that was born in country X needs neccesarily an X born name alternative in their 1st line. I can name dozens of Albanians born out of Albania that haven't an alt. name in their lead (Ali Demi or even Fan Noli's born name isn't in lead for example, obviously it's no need to adopt double-standarts in this policy). Alexikoua ( talk) 07:32, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes, but Fan Noli became notable with that name. Ali Demi became notable with that name. Pirro Dhima per WP:Athlete became notable in 1989 with his Albanian name Pirro Dhima as part of the Albanian weightlifting national team. You seem to forget that. You also seem to forget that an admin, FPS, is endorsing my reasoning. Per wp:mosbio: "previous nationalities and/or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Pirro Dhima became notable as part of the national team of Albania in weightlifting in 1989 per wp:athlete, so it is important to the subject's notability. Thank you and please revert to my version, unless you have anything smart to say. -- Sulmues Let's talk 17:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
As I explained to you already Alexi, [15], you are not notable only if you are a World Champion or Olympic champion, but if you are part of a national team which participates in the World Championship. Per Wiki policies Pirro Dhima gained notability in 1989, not when he became world champion under the Greek flag. How hard is it to understand this? WP:Athlete is only 5 lines long.-- Sulmues Let's talk 00:57, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Alexi, don't tweak things. You are not making sense. On one had you state that you are notable because a champion, on the other you say that you are notable, but you are not that notable. FPS stated that I am right. If we agree that he was notable in 1989, then we have to state his nationality at the time when he was first notable and I go ahead and put my lead as follows. If you disagree, bring the version here in the talk page.
Pyrros Dimas ( Greek: Πύρρος Δήμας, Albanian: Pirro Dhima born in October 13, 1971) is a retired professional weightlifter. He is considered as one of the greatest weightlifters of all times having been three times Olympic champion and three times World Champion. Dimas was born in Albania [1] and competed first for the Albanian team, [2] however he is of Greek ethnicity [3] and received his major sports results under the Greek flag after he emigrated to Greece in 1992.
That I have been for months with this is not an argument. I'll be doing it until you understand WP:Athlete. All I want is to say in the lede that he had Albanian nationality when he became notable to mirror Wiki policies, as I have stated earlier. You are ignoring FPS and becoming disruptive. We may ask for a third opinion that is not from the Balkan areas. If you agree to this lead, fine, otherwise I'll have to bring it to the Content noticeboard. -- Sulmues Let's talk 22:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm albanian. this is what lennox lewis has got "Lennox Claudius Lewis, CM, CBE (born September 2, 1965) is a retired boxer and the most recent Undisputed World Heavyweight Champion. He holds dual British and Canadian citizenship. As an amateur he won gold representing Canada at the 1988 Olympic Games after defeating future World Heavyweight Champion Riddick Bowe in the final." Keeping it fair and square.
References
Moved to Pirro Dhima. Gained notability with this name, so that's what matters. Let me know if you disagree. -- Sulmues ( talk) 15:31, 13 September 2010 (UTC) He was a notable world class weightlifter way prior the year when he emigrated to Greece: as the article shows, he was in the team that brought Albania to second place in Europe. Since his Greek name may be more diffused from Wikipedia based sources, saying that there are more sources with the Greek name is illogical. -- Sulmues ( talk) 15:38, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
I've moved it back, since such a move needs a concensus. If someone believes that a move is needed here it's better to make a move proposal, or at least open discussion (none of the above was done here). Alexikoua ( talk) 16:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Athenean, I do appreciate your efforts but I dont see how describing a region of Albania as "Northern Epirus" is in any way relevant to Pirro Dhima (he himself has not been quoted saying that his birth place is Northern Epirus). What is relevant is his place of birth and his ethnicity. It is well documented that he is of Greek ethnicity and that he was born in Albania. As i have said before: Wikipedia's policy in using historically appropriate names. That means his "official" birthplace is Himare, Albania (full stop). There should be no Prefixes or Suffixes to his birthplace; such as Himare, southern Albania (Northern Epirus).
I also feel that a description of a region of Albania (such as in the current version [16]) is not at all relevant to the article. The explanation of the region should be removed (if people are interested in his birthplace and ethnicity then they can check the Himare and ethnic Greeks pages).
If Pirro Dhima himself has declared that his birth place was "Northern Epirus" then that would be a different matter as we would be reporting on his own perspective. He has not done that yet, but instead, he has stated that he was in Tirane [17] {his first interview to an Albanian TV channel ( TV Klan)} and there is this [18] which has already been used numerous times in this article (surprisingly the Tirane bit has been overlooked) that backs the Tirane birthplace. I think that this needs a mention in the articles as its his take on his life and after all we are reporting on his life. kuxia1 22:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kuxia1 ( talk • contribs)
I would like to compare the issue of the use of the above term to the term "Western Thrace". It is well known that Thrace is not a region belonging exclusively to Greece or Turkey but one that spreads across Greece, Turkey and Bulgaria. The terms Western Thrace and Eastern Thrace are mutually accepted by Greece and Turkey since they are mentioned in treaties such as the Lausanne Treaty. It is also known that historically all parts of Thrace have been inhabited by both muslims and christians (although there are not christians anymore in turkish E.Thrace). Even if Greek Thrace is often refered to by Greeks as simply "Thraki" (Thrace), any educated person knows that "Thraki" is not all Thrace.
A similar situation applies to Epirus. It is illogical to believe that the historical region of Epirus ends exactly where the borders were agreed to be in 1914, although Greece officialy names one of its peripheries Epirus (not Southern Epirus). In reality, the southern part (including the most significant city Ioannina) was ceded to Greece whereas the northern part was ceded to Albania and thus became known as "Northern Epirus". The term "Northern Epirus" is mutually accepted by Albania and Greece, since the signing of the Protocol of Corfu between the Albanian Gorverment and the Provisional Government of Northern Epirus (which represented the local greek population) in 1914. The use of the term, even today is not necessary to have an irredentist sense, just a geographical one.
All in all, official (nowadays) or not, widely used or usually avoided, Northern Epirus (including Himara) is a mutually accepted term while the local Greeks in Albania, concetrated in the South, connect closely themeselves to the region of Epirus and they are self determined as "northern Epirotes". Concequently, there is no reason for Northern Epirus not to be cited as birthplace of Pyrros Dimas, an etnic Greek from Himara, without notes or explanations. All evidence show the oppposite.
P.S.The phrase in the article "Himarë, Albania, part of an area referred to [only] by Greeks as Northern Epirus" seems be misleading, leading someone to believe that Albania does not accept or/and has never accepted this term.
Routhramiotis
Ρουθραμιώτης ( talk) 18:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Pirro Dhima is a Greek because he decided to be a Greek not because he is a Greek. In the same position like him was also Mirela Manjani or Luan Shabani but they never denied their Albanian origin like Pirro did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.69.6.254 ( talk) 14:15, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Typical albanian ultra-nationalistic propaganda. Unlike Manjani and possibly Sabani who are Albanians, Dimas is member of the Greek minority of Albania. Pavlos1988 ( talk) 02:13, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Oh, you must also know that Pyrros Dimas' father, Viktoras, in 2007 Greek election, was a candidate of the conservative, patriotic and a little bit nationalistic party Democratic Revival. Από την ίδια κατηγορία των «συγγενών αστέρων» άντλησε και ο πρόεδρος της Δημοκρατικής Αναγέννησης κ. Στέλιος Παπαθεμελής την υποψηφιότητα του πατέρα του ολυμπιονίκη κ. Πύρρου Δήμα, Βίκτωρα. Pavlos1988 ( talk) 02:25, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
If the Greek spelling of his name given in this article is correct, the english translation should be Pyrros Deimas, not Pyrros Dimas ! Tvx1 ( talk) 19:13, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
The article deals with a biography & the person comes from a historical-cultural region which is defined by the specific community he belongs as N. Epirus. I see no reason for censorship in this case. Greek communities including Dimas declare that they come from the specific region, thus there is no reason to get rid of this essential detail for this article. Alexikoua ( talk) 21:49, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
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This declaration appears to be fully wp:POV. Both terms are used in the same irredentist context but also both of the have it's historical side. Claiming that the one is more correct in historic context isn't cool and it's actually POV pushing. In the case of P. Dimas he has declared himself as N.Epirote. It's a Greek ethno/geographic term and it's widely used in this context (like Pontic Greek etc). Pardon me but there is no offence at all if someone declares himself as being part of the specific community in this way. Alexikoua ( talk) 22:44, 6 September 2022 (UTC)