At a first glance the article looks in reasonable shape but is going to require some work on the lead section and references. I'll progress using the list below asap.
BenMacDui18:18, 28 August 2012 (UTC)reply
I am not clear what is meant by "yielded the name of
Neferhetepes wife of Userkaf and mother of
Sahure." Does this mean: " yielded the name "
Neferhetepes wife of Userkaf and mother of
Sahure". "?
Y I clarified this. What I meant was that the name
Neferhetepes was found, as well as some of her titles. But, the reference I cite does not say which titles. Thus, I only wrote what is cited: firstly that the name
Neferhetepes was found, and secondly that she is known to have been Userkaf's wife and the mother of Sahure.
Iry-Hor (
talk)
10:53, 1 September 2012 (UTC)reply
Am I right in thinking that this same story is repeated immediately below in the "Discovery" sub-section?
I am not happy with the use of the bold paragraph headings such as Change of ideology. If you thing this is acceptable please indicate where this is stated by MOS. If not, please change to sentence style e.g. "The first conjecture is that this was a change of ideology." or use sub-section headers.
Y Fine but can we keep the bulleted list ? In any case, MOS or not, I found the bold font to be much clearer than how it is now. What do you think ? (forget the MOS one instant).
Iry-Hor (
talk)
21:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)reply
Why "Djoser Netjerikhet". The second word is not one I am familiar with.
YNetjerikhet is the real horus name of pharaoh Djoser, Djoser being a name given to him during the much later New Kingdom. I recognize that everybody call this pharaoh Djoser and not by his real name Netjerikhet and thus I have removed the "Netjerikhet" from the article.
Iry-Hor (
talk)
21:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)reply
Please explain what a "pented roof" is or link to Wiktionary or a wiki article. Similarly, "canopic chest" and "magazine room".
Y Pented roof ->
gabled roof, I also added wiki articles for "
canopic chest". As for "magazine room" it is just a storage room. For some reason all books and publications on pyramid architecture use the term "magazine" instead of storage. So the first time "magazine" appears I have put a footnote explaining that this is a storage room.
Iry-Hor (
talk)
21:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)reply
Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
Please provide a publisher and access date for all citations and ensure the style is consistent.
The sentences /paras ending as follows lack citations:
Since Perring had already buried the robbers tunnel by that time, K. R. Lepsius did not investigate the pyramid any further.Y Ref. added
However, I am not happy with the image in the infobox. It is an impressive sight but the uninitiated might well assume that Djoser's pyramid was Userkafs. Better to use it elsewhere to illustrate the necropolis.
File:Userkaf Pyramid Substructure.png looks like a decent piece of work, but can you confirm that this is reliably sourced/a genuinely accurate illustration?
Y Yes I can confirm that this is a reliable source as a similar view is available in Mark Lehner's book The complete pyramids. I have added this reference to the caption of the figure.
Iry-Hor (
talk)
21:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)reply
MOS does not allow for the mini-gallery after "Offering chapel". Ditto "Construction" and "Mortuary Temple". Please remove or redistribute these images.
Galleries are not prohibited but they are discouraged unless they meet the criteria specified. In this instance I don't think they do - feel free to persuade me if you like, but some of them seem rather indistinct and repetitive and the remainder could well fit in, in the normal fashion.
BenMacDui08:28, 31 August 2012 (UTC)reply
I think it is important to give many pictures of the pyramid complex, not only to show how it is today, but also to show the different computer reconstructions that have been made. This gives the reader an idea of what the pyramid looks like today, but also what it might have looked like at the time of its construction. Sadly, if I remove the galleries, I don't think there will be enough space in the text to show the required pictures: some computer reconstructions will have to be left out, when they clearly illustrate the organization of the complex. Alternatively, pictures of the pyramid as it is today could be removed, but then they show what the pyramid really is. Thus I found no better alternative than galleries to do so. When I have rewritten the lead and all other points have been cleared, I will try removing the galleries to see if it works. An article where this will clearly not be possible is the
Pyramid of Sahure where the galleries illustrate the most important elements of the pyramid complex just after they have been discussed in the text. Given that the pyramid of Sahure is renowned for its reliefs, columns, star ceilings etc. and is better documented than Userkaf's, the galleries in that case are, I think, essential. Maybe you could have a glance a this article, and tell me what you think.
Iry-Hor (
talk)
10:37, 1 September 2012 (UTC)reply
Going on an extended break whilst having two articles at GAN is not best practice. There is a suggestion above that you are expecting me to fail this nomination, which I will have to do if the work is not complete by 12th September.
BenMacDui09:17, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
Regretfully, I have failed the article. It is not so very far away from GA and I encourage you to try again on your return. Regards,
BenMacDui08:26, 13 September 2012 (UTC)reply
All required references have been added and all other changes advocated by the reviewer have been implemented. I will renominate this article.
Iry-Hor (
talk)
21:48, 19 December 2012 (UTC)reply
At a first glance the article looks in reasonable shape but is going to require some work on the lead section and references. I'll progress using the list below asap.
BenMacDui18:18, 28 August 2012 (UTC)reply
I am not clear what is meant by "yielded the name of
Neferhetepes wife of Userkaf and mother of
Sahure." Does this mean: " yielded the name "
Neferhetepes wife of Userkaf and mother of
Sahure". "?
Y I clarified this. What I meant was that the name
Neferhetepes was found, as well as some of her titles. But, the reference I cite does not say which titles. Thus, I only wrote what is cited: firstly that the name
Neferhetepes was found, and secondly that she is known to have been Userkaf's wife and the mother of Sahure.
Iry-Hor (
talk)
10:53, 1 September 2012 (UTC)reply
Am I right in thinking that this same story is repeated immediately below in the "Discovery" sub-section?
I am not happy with the use of the bold paragraph headings such as Change of ideology. If you thing this is acceptable please indicate where this is stated by MOS. If not, please change to sentence style e.g. "The first conjecture is that this was a change of ideology." or use sub-section headers.
Y Fine but can we keep the bulleted list ? In any case, MOS or not, I found the bold font to be much clearer than how it is now. What do you think ? (forget the MOS one instant).
Iry-Hor (
talk)
21:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)reply
Why "Djoser Netjerikhet". The second word is not one I am familiar with.
YNetjerikhet is the real horus name of pharaoh Djoser, Djoser being a name given to him during the much later New Kingdom. I recognize that everybody call this pharaoh Djoser and not by his real name Netjerikhet and thus I have removed the "Netjerikhet" from the article.
Iry-Hor (
talk)
21:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)reply
Please explain what a "pented roof" is or link to Wiktionary or a wiki article. Similarly, "canopic chest" and "magazine room".
Y Pented roof ->
gabled roof, I also added wiki articles for "
canopic chest". As for "magazine room" it is just a storage room. For some reason all books and publications on pyramid architecture use the term "magazine" instead of storage. So the first time "magazine" appears I have put a footnote explaining that this is a storage room.
Iry-Hor (
talk)
21:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)reply
Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
Please provide a publisher and access date for all citations and ensure the style is consistent.
The sentences /paras ending as follows lack citations:
Since Perring had already buried the robbers tunnel by that time, K. R. Lepsius did not investigate the pyramid any further.Y Ref. added
However, I am not happy with the image in the infobox. It is an impressive sight but the uninitiated might well assume that Djoser's pyramid was Userkafs. Better to use it elsewhere to illustrate the necropolis.
File:Userkaf Pyramid Substructure.png looks like a decent piece of work, but can you confirm that this is reliably sourced/a genuinely accurate illustration?
Y Yes I can confirm that this is a reliable source as a similar view is available in Mark Lehner's book The complete pyramids. I have added this reference to the caption of the figure.
Iry-Hor (
talk)
21:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)reply
MOS does not allow for the mini-gallery after "Offering chapel". Ditto "Construction" and "Mortuary Temple". Please remove or redistribute these images.
Galleries are not prohibited but they are discouraged unless they meet the criteria specified. In this instance I don't think they do - feel free to persuade me if you like, but some of them seem rather indistinct and repetitive and the remainder could well fit in, in the normal fashion.
BenMacDui08:28, 31 August 2012 (UTC)reply
I think it is important to give many pictures of the pyramid complex, not only to show how it is today, but also to show the different computer reconstructions that have been made. This gives the reader an idea of what the pyramid looks like today, but also what it might have looked like at the time of its construction. Sadly, if I remove the galleries, I don't think there will be enough space in the text to show the required pictures: some computer reconstructions will have to be left out, when they clearly illustrate the organization of the complex. Alternatively, pictures of the pyramid as it is today could be removed, but then they show what the pyramid really is. Thus I found no better alternative than galleries to do so. When I have rewritten the lead and all other points have been cleared, I will try removing the galleries to see if it works. An article where this will clearly not be possible is the
Pyramid of Sahure where the galleries illustrate the most important elements of the pyramid complex just after they have been discussed in the text. Given that the pyramid of Sahure is renowned for its reliefs, columns, star ceilings etc. and is better documented than Userkaf's, the galleries in that case are, I think, essential. Maybe you could have a glance a this article, and tell me what you think.
Iry-Hor (
talk)
10:37, 1 September 2012 (UTC)reply
Going on an extended break whilst having two articles at GAN is not best practice. There is a suggestion above that you are expecting me to fail this nomination, which I will have to do if the work is not complete by 12th September.
BenMacDui09:17, 8 September 2012 (UTC)reply
Regretfully, I have failed the article. It is not so very far away from GA and I encourage you to try again on your return. Regards,
BenMacDui08:26, 13 September 2012 (UTC)reply
All required references have been added and all other changes advocated by the reviewer have been implemented. I will renominate this article.
Iry-Hor (
talk)
21:48, 19 December 2012 (UTC)reply