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Reviewing |
Reviewer: LT910001 ( talk · contribs) 11:38, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Good day, if there are no objections I'll take this review. I haven't had any part in creating or editing this article. I welcome the contributions of other editors or interested parties during this review. LT90001 ( talk) 11:38, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Rate | Attribute | Review Comment |
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1. Well-written: | ||
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1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | Prose is at times clunky and hard to read |
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1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. | |
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
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2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | Numerous uncited paragraphs |
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2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | |
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2c. it contains no original research. | Unsourced areas make this hard to verify. |
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
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3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | Yes to some extent (see below) |
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3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | |
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4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | |
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5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | |
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
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6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | Cannot check presently. |
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6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | Images are excellent |
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7. Overall assessment. | Has outstanding issues (see below). |
Overall this is a very interesting article but due to some issues with prose, layout and readability I think it may need some editing before it can get to GA status. I'll provide some specific commentary below. Lastly, I regret that this article wasn't picked up for review for so many months and hope that the nominator is still interested in elevation to GA status. LT90001 ( talk) 22:00, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
I'll wait for feedback from the nominator before I provide more specific feedback, but some general points:
Have contacted the nominator ( User_talk:Iry-Hor#Your_GA_nomination_of_Pyramid_of_Sahure) and it doesn't look like changes will be made in the foreseeable future. I wish Iry-Hor all the best in their future wikitravels and thank them for the nomination and their edits to the Ancient Egypt content on Wiki. I encourage nomination in the future when the concerns raised in this review have been addressed. LT910001 ( talk) 22:49, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Book sources mostly don't cap pyramid when writing of the pyramid of Sahure. So we should fix this embarrassing departure from our normal style in a featured artcle. Dicklyon ( talk) 15:22, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Embarassing departure from our normal style? It is "our normal style" when literally every other pyramid article including the other featured articles on this topic use it in the opening sentence of the lede: Pyramid of Djoser, Pyramid of Unas, Pyramid of Khafre, Pyramid of Amenemhet I, etc. I didn't invent a new style whilst writing this article – in fact, I'm pretty sure the phrase was capitalized when I started working on it – it's been accepted practice since before I was an editor. Mr rnddude ( talk) 01:49, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia- a substantial majority of cases, not just more often. Further though, ngrams don't distinguish uses in caption, headings and like where title case is being used, so they tend to over-report capitalisation compared with use in prose. WP:CONSISTENT is a consideration in determining article titles. It has nothing to do with capitalisation in prose. Cinderella157 ( talk) 07:30, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Sometimes over-capping lasts a long time, like pyramids. We eventually get around to finding and fixing.Per WP:CONLEVEL, MOS:CAPS represents the broad community consensus on the matter of capitalisation even if you
do not believe [it]. To your statement:
none of those articles ... shows a substantial majority favouring capitalization over non-capitalization on Ngrams.This does not appear to be an accurate statement per these ngrams: Great Mosque of Gaza, Bank of America Tower and Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception. As I stated before,
Getting things consistently wrong doesn't make it right.Cinderella157 ( talk) 14:31, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
The Step Pyramid complex is such a basic template of Egyptian art and architecture that it is easy to take it for granted- Mark Lehner The Complete Pyramids p. 84. Alternatively:
Few monuments hold a place in human history as significant as that of the Step Pyramid in Saqqara- Miroslav Verner The Pyramids (2001), p.108. Both of these sources are easily accessible to any editor via archive.org. How about:
What is seen in the Step Pyramid complex of Djoser is a transformation of the Early Dynastic tombs into the first monument in the world made entirely of stone—on a truly huge scale.- Kathryn Bard Oxford History of Ancient Egypt (2004), p.81. That's a general AE source. I should not need to do basic research for you. The change itself from 'Step Pyramid' to 'Step Pyramid of Djoser' is, however, fine. Mr rnddude ( talk) 02:10, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
[your evidence] says nothing about 'Step Pyramid' in this context.The google book search uses search terms that capture "Step Pyramid" in the context of "Djose", even when not followed directly by "of Djose". The search does indeed capture such text as well as many examples of "Step Pyramid of Djose". The search result strongly suggests that "Step Pyramid" as a stand-alone phrase is not a proper name in this context. But one has to wade through a lot of hits to find many hits for "Step Pyramid/step pyramid" v "Step Pyramid of Djose". I believe that the search does capture a corpus numbering in the thousands. As to:
having contributed zero bytes to this article or any other in this field.Even if my contribution to Pyramid of Djoser has been very small, your statement is inaccurate. Cinderella157 ( talk) 07:44, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
The Step Pyramid of Djoser was built some time after 2650 BCE. It was the first pyramid in Egyptian history, and the earliest stone structure of its size in the world. The design of the Step Pyramid was credited to Imuthes (Imhotep). During an excavation of the entrance complex of the Step Pyramid in 1925-1926, the name of Imhotep was found inscribed on the pedestal of a statue of Djoser, providing evidence for the correctness of Manetho's statement. You claim
one has to wade through a lot of hits to find many hits for "Step Pyramid/step pyramid". Really? I just opened the book at the top of the page and it's there in the opening paragraph of the Google preview. Changing 'Step Pyramid' to 'Step Pyramid of Djoser' in the lede is fine, but just 'Step Pyramid' should – and in the sources is – also capitalized. A book might start with 'Bosnia and Herzegovina' before switching to 'Bosnia' from there on. It would not open with 'Bosnia and Herzegovina' and switch to 'bosnia'. I really don't know what interpretation to take from your comments. They only make sense to me if I consider that you are treating anything I claim at all with suspicion. It's really bold to claim that 'Step Pyramid' is not capitalized when talking about the 'Step Pyramid of Djoser' in the face of all available evidence. That all said, I will not engage you here further on this – because I cannot grasp the reason for your insistence of rejecting all evidence. I've made three attempts at demonstrating the fact that both 'Step Pyramid of Djoser' and 'Step Pyramid' are capitalized in sources. As I said, I am not obligated to satisfy you. Believe as you please. Mr rnddude ( talk) 09:59, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources(emphasis in original). The sources need to capitalize consistently, be independent, and be reliable. By the time you get to page 4 of the google books search, you are running into more and more sources that aren't RS at all or that aren't RS for the topic. Examples: Joseph Davidovits (is a material scientist, but not RS for this topic) ; Ivan Jilda (an author, no accreditation that I can identify) ; and Kristine Carlson Asselin (an author, primarily of children's books and YA fiction, fine for kids not for Wikipedia). Those I could tell weren't RS at a glance. Admittedly, only Davidovitz capitalizes among those sources, and ironically he's the closest to an RS. His views and theories on the construction of the pyramids just aren't mainstream in the field. Hence why I only did pages 1 and 2 as the preponderance of the sources there are reliable or marginally reliable. Mr rnddude ( talk) 02:42, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
strongly suggests that "Step Pyramid" is not a proper name in this context) was based on the search summaries. I too have looked in closer detail at the search hits. I have looked for "Step Pyramid" as a stand-alone phrase (or even as an attributive phrase eg "Step Pyramid complex") but not as part of "Step Pyramid of Djoser". I don't know if the search results vary by region but I do know that viewability is reported to vary. I was also conscious of the distinction between a general reference and a specific reference tho Djoser's pyramid. In the first three pages, I found 10 that were for UC and 7 that were for LC (including 1 mixed), with 6 that did not report the term, 5 that could not be viewed, 1 that appeared mixed but was not counted and, 1 that used "Djoser's Step Pyramid" several times [similar to "Step Pyramid of Djoser"] but in no other way that would resolve it as a stand-alone phrase) - giving 58% UC. Adding page 4 this it is 52% UC and adding page 5, it is 54% UC. I could give a detailed statement of this assessment. There are a significant number of sources that use "Step Pyramid of Djoser" but do not use "Step Pyramid" at all in a way that might be capitalised (6 in 30 or 20%). Not all of the sources that cap "Step Pyramid of Djoser" cap "Step Pyramid" as a stand alone but those that lowercase "Step Pyramid of Djoser" do (to my recollection). The ngram evidence for Step Pyramid of Djoser is about 77% in the capped form (without allowing for headings and captions) and 80% (ie proportioning for the "6 in 30" above) of this is 62 (and lower with consideration for headers and like). This cross-check is consistent with the 58% from the first three pages of google books. While we agree that "Step Pyramid of Djoser" meets the threshold set by MOS:CAPS, I'm not seeing that "Step Pyramid" as a stand-alone term meets the same threshold. Cinderella157 ( talk) 13:15, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
Checking more articles, I find that in many cases "pyramid" is uniformly lowercase in sources, and even uniformly lowercase in the article with the exception of the bolded title, as in Pyramid of Khentkaus II that I just fixed, or nearly uniformly as in Pyramid of Pepi II. I'm going to go ahead and fix more such "obvious" cases, and then we'll see where we stand. Dicklyon ( talk) 06:27, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
No peer review yet of course. [' https://phys.org/news/2023-09-rooms-sahura-pyramid.html] [5] Doug Weller talk 10:49, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Pyramid of Sahure is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 18, 2022. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | There is a request, submitted by Catfurball, for an audio version of this article to be created. For further information, see WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia. The rationale behind the request is: "Important". |
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: LT910001 ( talk · contribs) 11:38, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Good day, if there are no objections I'll take this review. I haven't had any part in creating or editing this article. I welcome the contributions of other editors or interested parties during this review. LT90001 ( talk) 11:38, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Rate | Attribute | Review Comment |
---|---|---|
1. Well-written: | ||
![]() |
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | Prose is at times clunky and hard to read |
![]() |
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. | |
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
![]() |
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | Numerous uncited paragraphs |
![]() |
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | |
![]() |
2c. it contains no original research. | Unsourced areas make this hard to verify. |
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
![]() |
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | Yes to some extent (see below) |
![]() |
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | |
![]() |
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | |
![]() |
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | |
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
![]() |
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | Cannot check presently. |
![]() |
6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | Images are excellent |
![]() |
7. Overall assessment. | Has outstanding issues (see below). |
Overall this is a very interesting article but due to some issues with prose, layout and readability I think it may need some editing before it can get to GA status. I'll provide some specific commentary below. Lastly, I regret that this article wasn't picked up for review for so many months and hope that the nominator is still interested in elevation to GA status. LT90001 ( talk) 22:00, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
I'll wait for feedback from the nominator before I provide more specific feedback, but some general points:
Have contacted the nominator ( User_talk:Iry-Hor#Your_GA_nomination_of_Pyramid_of_Sahure) and it doesn't look like changes will be made in the foreseeable future. I wish Iry-Hor all the best in their future wikitravels and thank them for the nomination and their edits to the Ancient Egypt content on Wiki. I encourage nomination in the future when the concerns raised in this review have been addressed. LT910001 ( talk) 22:49, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Book sources mostly don't cap pyramid when writing of the pyramid of Sahure. So we should fix this embarrassing departure from our normal style in a featured artcle. Dicklyon ( talk) 15:22, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
Embarassing departure from our normal style? It is "our normal style" when literally every other pyramid article including the other featured articles on this topic use it in the opening sentence of the lede: Pyramid of Djoser, Pyramid of Unas, Pyramid of Khafre, Pyramid of Amenemhet I, etc. I didn't invent a new style whilst writing this article – in fact, I'm pretty sure the phrase was capitalized when I started working on it – it's been accepted practice since before I was an editor. Mr rnddude ( talk) 01:49, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia- a substantial majority of cases, not just more often. Further though, ngrams don't distinguish uses in caption, headings and like where title case is being used, so they tend to over-report capitalisation compared with use in prose. WP:CONSISTENT is a consideration in determining article titles. It has nothing to do with capitalisation in prose. Cinderella157 ( talk) 07:30, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Sometimes over-capping lasts a long time, like pyramids. We eventually get around to finding and fixing.Per WP:CONLEVEL, MOS:CAPS represents the broad community consensus on the matter of capitalisation even if you
do not believe [it]. To your statement:
none of those articles ... shows a substantial majority favouring capitalization over non-capitalization on Ngrams.This does not appear to be an accurate statement per these ngrams: Great Mosque of Gaza, Bank of America Tower and Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception. As I stated before,
Getting things consistently wrong doesn't make it right.Cinderella157 ( talk) 14:31, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
The Step Pyramid complex is such a basic template of Egyptian art and architecture that it is easy to take it for granted- Mark Lehner The Complete Pyramids p. 84. Alternatively:
Few monuments hold a place in human history as significant as that of the Step Pyramid in Saqqara- Miroslav Verner The Pyramids (2001), p.108. Both of these sources are easily accessible to any editor via archive.org. How about:
What is seen in the Step Pyramid complex of Djoser is a transformation of the Early Dynastic tombs into the first monument in the world made entirely of stone—on a truly huge scale.- Kathryn Bard Oxford History of Ancient Egypt (2004), p.81. That's a general AE source. I should not need to do basic research for you. The change itself from 'Step Pyramid' to 'Step Pyramid of Djoser' is, however, fine. Mr rnddude ( talk) 02:10, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
[your evidence] says nothing about 'Step Pyramid' in this context.The google book search uses search terms that capture "Step Pyramid" in the context of "Djose", even when not followed directly by "of Djose". The search does indeed capture such text as well as many examples of "Step Pyramid of Djose". The search result strongly suggests that "Step Pyramid" as a stand-alone phrase is not a proper name in this context. But one has to wade through a lot of hits to find many hits for "Step Pyramid/step pyramid" v "Step Pyramid of Djose". I believe that the search does capture a corpus numbering in the thousands. As to:
having contributed zero bytes to this article or any other in this field.Even if my contribution to Pyramid of Djoser has been very small, your statement is inaccurate. Cinderella157 ( talk) 07:44, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
The Step Pyramid of Djoser was built some time after 2650 BCE. It was the first pyramid in Egyptian history, and the earliest stone structure of its size in the world. The design of the Step Pyramid was credited to Imuthes (Imhotep). During an excavation of the entrance complex of the Step Pyramid in 1925-1926, the name of Imhotep was found inscribed on the pedestal of a statue of Djoser, providing evidence for the correctness of Manetho's statement. You claim
one has to wade through a lot of hits to find many hits for "Step Pyramid/step pyramid". Really? I just opened the book at the top of the page and it's there in the opening paragraph of the Google preview. Changing 'Step Pyramid' to 'Step Pyramid of Djoser' in the lede is fine, but just 'Step Pyramid' should – and in the sources is – also capitalized. A book might start with 'Bosnia and Herzegovina' before switching to 'Bosnia' from there on. It would not open with 'Bosnia and Herzegovina' and switch to 'bosnia'. I really don't know what interpretation to take from your comments. They only make sense to me if I consider that you are treating anything I claim at all with suspicion. It's really bold to claim that 'Step Pyramid' is not capitalized when talking about the 'Step Pyramid of Djoser' in the face of all available evidence. That all said, I will not engage you here further on this – because I cannot grasp the reason for your insistence of rejecting all evidence. I've made three attempts at demonstrating the fact that both 'Step Pyramid of Djoser' and 'Step Pyramid' are capitalized in sources. As I said, I am not obligated to satisfy you. Believe as you please. Mr rnddude ( talk) 09:59, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources(emphasis in original). The sources need to capitalize consistently, be independent, and be reliable. By the time you get to page 4 of the google books search, you are running into more and more sources that aren't RS at all or that aren't RS for the topic. Examples: Joseph Davidovits (is a material scientist, but not RS for this topic) ; Ivan Jilda (an author, no accreditation that I can identify) ; and Kristine Carlson Asselin (an author, primarily of children's books and YA fiction, fine for kids not for Wikipedia). Those I could tell weren't RS at a glance. Admittedly, only Davidovitz capitalizes among those sources, and ironically he's the closest to an RS. His views and theories on the construction of the pyramids just aren't mainstream in the field. Hence why I only did pages 1 and 2 as the preponderance of the sources there are reliable or marginally reliable. Mr rnddude ( talk) 02:42, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
strongly suggests that "Step Pyramid" is not a proper name in this context) was based on the search summaries. I too have looked in closer detail at the search hits. I have looked for "Step Pyramid" as a stand-alone phrase (or even as an attributive phrase eg "Step Pyramid complex") but not as part of "Step Pyramid of Djoser". I don't know if the search results vary by region but I do know that viewability is reported to vary. I was also conscious of the distinction between a general reference and a specific reference tho Djoser's pyramid. In the first three pages, I found 10 that were for UC and 7 that were for LC (including 1 mixed), with 6 that did not report the term, 5 that could not be viewed, 1 that appeared mixed but was not counted and, 1 that used "Djoser's Step Pyramid" several times [similar to "Step Pyramid of Djoser"] but in no other way that would resolve it as a stand-alone phrase) - giving 58% UC. Adding page 4 this it is 52% UC and adding page 5, it is 54% UC. I could give a detailed statement of this assessment. There are a significant number of sources that use "Step Pyramid of Djoser" but do not use "Step Pyramid" at all in a way that might be capitalised (6 in 30 or 20%). Not all of the sources that cap "Step Pyramid of Djoser" cap "Step Pyramid" as a stand alone but those that lowercase "Step Pyramid of Djoser" do (to my recollection). The ngram evidence for Step Pyramid of Djoser is about 77% in the capped form (without allowing for headings and captions) and 80% (ie proportioning for the "6 in 30" above) of this is 62 (and lower with consideration for headers and like). This cross-check is consistent with the 58% from the first three pages of google books. While we agree that "Step Pyramid of Djoser" meets the threshold set by MOS:CAPS, I'm not seeing that "Step Pyramid" as a stand-alone term meets the same threshold. Cinderella157 ( talk) 13:15, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
Checking more articles, I find that in many cases "pyramid" is uniformly lowercase in sources, and even uniformly lowercase in the article with the exception of the bolded title, as in Pyramid of Khentkaus II that I just fixed, or nearly uniformly as in Pyramid of Pepi II. I'm going to go ahead and fix more such "obvious" cases, and then we'll see where we stand. Dicklyon ( talk) 06:27, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
No peer review yet of course. [' https://phys.org/news/2023-09-rooms-sahura-pyramid.html] [5] Doug Weller talk 10:49, 22 October 2023 (UTC)