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Is Melqart really compared with Herakles (aka Hercules)? Seems like he would be closer to Hades, but I'm no expert. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.190.254.108 ( talk) 18:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
What is the point of this interminable reading list? Paul B 14:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/uc_decker_carthrel2.htm. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Misarxist ( talk) 17:02, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
I suggest that we split off the issue of alleged child sacrifice into its own article because:
1. It is an important issue in its own right.
2. It is unbalancing the article on religion in Carthage.
3. It may be difficult to avoid the section in the main Carthage article being more than just a summary in this article. PatGallacher ( talk) 10:37, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
"Carthage was described by its competitors as practicing child sacrifice. Plutarch (ca. 46–120 AD) mentions the practice, as do Tertullian, Orosius, Diodorus Siculus and Philo. However, Livy and Polybius do not." Some of the writers listed here were writing centuries after the event, the only contemporary one was Polybius. The earliest writer to mention child sacrifice in Carthage could be Diodorus Siculus, who was writing around a century after the destruction of the city. Are there any earlier mentions in Greek or Roman accounts of child sacrifice in Carthage?
Is it correct to say that there are Greek, Israelite and Roman mentions of Phoenecian child sacrifice? The Biblical account isn't strictly about the Phoenecians, and is there Greek mention at all? PatGallacher ( talk) 11:10, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
The tone of several sections of this article reads in the persuasive rather than the expository. We've no need to be convince readers of something to be taken as fact. Opinions or recent scholarly research should be clearly described as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.213.147.254 ( talk) 15:42, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Concern the God Moloch and the association with child sacrifices. In reading 'The strange world of human sacrifice' by Jan N. Bremmer. I find that he introduces the ideas of Old Testment scholar O. Eissfeldt (1887-1973). Who understood mōlek in relation to Punic molk/mulk, a cogante common name as part of child sacifice terminology. The Imlk phrases should be rendered in the following way: 'to cause one's son/daughter to pass through the fire as a molk-sacrifice.' Suggesting a distortion Molek, a ritual activity, into a seperate god of Moloch.
The Bible entries (below) have the childern passing through the fire. In ancient Roman and Ireland (plus 19th century Slavs) livestock was driven through fires and herder jumped the fires, in what was purification rituals. Roman called the festival 'Palilla' and the Irish 'Beltaine' (the fires of Bial).
Jeremiah 32:35: 35And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
2 Kings 23 9Nevertheless the priests of the high places came not up to the altar of the LORD in Jerusalem, but they did eat of the unleavened bread among their brethren. 10And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech. 11And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the LORD, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which was in the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire.
Leviticus 18:21: 21And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
I was hoping to read an article on what the Carthaginian religion was like, but this unfortunately is 90% 'did the Carthaginians engage in child sacrifice?' I mean, that should be *part* of such an article, but there is basically no information on any other aspect of their religion in this article (aside from a brief mention of two gods and the fact that Carthage also engaged in animal sacrifice). If that is all the available information, that at least should be stated explicitly, but somehow I doubt that is correct.
It seems clear to me that there should be an article on 'child sacrifice in Carthage', because clearly there is some scholarly debate about it and people are very interested in the idea. But there also should be a less obsessive version of this article, stating what is known about the religion in broader strokes. 96.246.248.112 ( talk) 01:27, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Someone inserted random references to The Elder Scrolls into the article. I have removed them. There are no Phoenician gods named Mephalla, Boethia, or Azura that I could find in my research, and Μποέτια, the supposed Greek name of Boethiah, does not transliterate to anything even close to the word Boethiah. 47.185.130.89 ( talk) 04:54, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
As the title is currently, it clearly would include figures such as Saint Augustine. However, the article is concerned with Carthaginian pagan religion. My suggestion would be to move it to "Carthaginian Religion".-- Ermenrich ( talk) 16:08, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Since I've heard no objections I've gone ahead and made the move.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 14:04, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
The tophets and child sacrifice is now handled in some detail at Tophet#Carthage and the western Mediterranean. Should we reduce its size here somewhat?-- Ermenrich ( talk) 14:17, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
I removed this text:
According to Whitney Smith, the
Star and crescent was first emblazoned on standards and buildings in the Punic state of
Carthage, located in present-day Tunisia. Nevertheless, they were widely adopted by Muslim countries, and have become known as symbols of Islam, when in fact, they may be cultural symbols.
[1] Likewise, the sun is often represented with the crescent on ancient Punic artifacts and is associated with the ancient Punic religion, especially with the Sign of Tanit.
[2]
The first bit appears to be OR and does not match the source (Britannica) which actually says The Turkish national flag colour for centuries has been red, and ships from Tunisia, like private vessels throughout the Ottoman Empire, flew red ensigns. The current Tunisian national flag, established in 1835, contains a crescent and star on a white disk, also long used by the Turks. The history of those symbols is more ancient than the Ottoman Empire, however. Many nations and civilizations of the Middle East from the days of the ancient Egyptians and Phoenicians had employed standards with the horns of an ox or a crescent moon of the same shape. The Punic state of Carthage, which had existed in the same area as modern Tunisia, emblazoned the crescent moon on its standards and buildings, although the symbol was not chosen by Tunisia because of that association.
As you'll see nothing about how this Carthaginian symbol has been adopted by Islam. The second citation likewise appears to be synth and or and is also incomplete.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 21:28, 26 July 2022 (UTC) Ermenrich ( talk) 21:28, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
I think that's the right call. Cheers! Furius ( talk) 06:38, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
"Early use of the hamsa could be traced to ancient Carthage [3] (modern-day Tunisia) and ancient North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula ( Spain and Portugal). An 8th-century BCE Israelite tomb containing a hamsa-like hand inscription was discovered at Khirbet el-Qom. The image of the open right hand is seen in Mesopotamian (modern day Iraq and Kuwait) artifacts in the amulets of the goddess Inanna or Ishtar. [4]"which in turn its source states
"The first known use of the symbol can be traced to the civilization of Phoenicia that spread across the Mediterranean between 1550 – 330 BCE. The Phoenicians used an image of the hand to represent Tanit, patron goddess of their capital city Carthage and controller of the lunar cycle."
"The current Tunisian national flag, established in 1835, contains a crescent and star on a white disk, also long used by the Turks. The history of those symbols is more ancient than the Ottoman Empire, however. Many nations and civilizations of the Middle East from the days of the ancient Egyptians and Phoenicians had employed standards with the horns of an ox or a crescent moon of the same shape. The Punic state of Carthage, which had existed in the same area as modern Tunisia, emblazoned the crescent moon on its standards and buildings, although the symbol was not chosen by Tunisia because of that association. The crescent and star have greater cultural than religious symbolism. However, because they have been widely adopted by Muslim countries such as Tunisia, they have developed a strong association with Islam.", so I propose to paraphrase it as such here instead of the formulation done in the tunisian flag article. Asmodim ( talk) 17:33, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
References
Sonbolp355
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).@ Hans van Deukeren: the section you added is very welcome, but you only have one citation supporting the text. This means that it is impossible to tell whether what you've added is WP:original research or WP:synthesis. Would you be able to add more citations to back up the information you've added?-- Ermenrich ( talk) 21:06, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Is Melqart really compared with Herakles (aka Hercules)? Seems like he would be closer to Hades, but I'm no expert. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.190.254.108 ( talk) 18:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
What is the point of this interminable reading list? Paul B 14:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/uc_decker_carthrel2.htm. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Misarxist ( talk) 17:02, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
I suggest that we split off the issue of alleged child sacrifice into its own article because:
1. It is an important issue in its own right.
2. It is unbalancing the article on religion in Carthage.
3. It may be difficult to avoid the section in the main Carthage article being more than just a summary in this article. PatGallacher ( talk) 10:37, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
"Carthage was described by its competitors as practicing child sacrifice. Plutarch (ca. 46–120 AD) mentions the practice, as do Tertullian, Orosius, Diodorus Siculus and Philo. However, Livy and Polybius do not." Some of the writers listed here were writing centuries after the event, the only contemporary one was Polybius. The earliest writer to mention child sacrifice in Carthage could be Diodorus Siculus, who was writing around a century after the destruction of the city. Are there any earlier mentions in Greek or Roman accounts of child sacrifice in Carthage?
Is it correct to say that there are Greek, Israelite and Roman mentions of Phoenecian child sacrifice? The Biblical account isn't strictly about the Phoenecians, and is there Greek mention at all? PatGallacher ( talk) 11:10, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
The tone of several sections of this article reads in the persuasive rather than the expository. We've no need to be convince readers of something to be taken as fact. Opinions or recent scholarly research should be clearly described as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.213.147.254 ( talk) 15:42, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
Concern the God Moloch and the association with child sacrifices. In reading 'The strange world of human sacrifice' by Jan N. Bremmer. I find that he introduces the ideas of Old Testment scholar O. Eissfeldt (1887-1973). Who understood mōlek in relation to Punic molk/mulk, a cogante common name as part of child sacifice terminology. The Imlk phrases should be rendered in the following way: 'to cause one's son/daughter to pass through the fire as a molk-sacrifice.' Suggesting a distortion Molek, a ritual activity, into a seperate god of Moloch.
The Bible entries (below) have the childern passing through the fire. In ancient Roman and Ireland (plus 19th century Slavs) livestock was driven through fires and herder jumped the fires, in what was purification rituals. Roman called the festival 'Palilla' and the Irish 'Beltaine' (the fires of Bial).
Jeremiah 32:35: 35And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
2 Kings 23 9Nevertheless the priests of the high places came not up to the altar of the LORD in Jerusalem, but they did eat of the unleavened bread among their brethren. 10And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech. 11And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the LORD, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which was in the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire.
Leviticus 18:21: 21And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
I was hoping to read an article on what the Carthaginian religion was like, but this unfortunately is 90% 'did the Carthaginians engage in child sacrifice?' I mean, that should be *part* of such an article, but there is basically no information on any other aspect of their religion in this article (aside from a brief mention of two gods and the fact that Carthage also engaged in animal sacrifice). If that is all the available information, that at least should be stated explicitly, but somehow I doubt that is correct.
It seems clear to me that there should be an article on 'child sacrifice in Carthage', because clearly there is some scholarly debate about it and people are very interested in the idea. But there also should be a less obsessive version of this article, stating what is known about the religion in broader strokes. 96.246.248.112 ( talk) 01:27, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
Someone inserted random references to The Elder Scrolls into the article. I have removed them. There are no Phoenician gods named Mephalla, Boethia, or Azura that I could find in my research, and Μποέτια, the supposed Greek name of Boethiah, does not transliterate to anything even close to the word Boethiah. 47.185.130.89 ( talk) 04:54, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
As the title is currently, it clearly would include figures such as Saint Augustine. However, the article is concerned with Carthaginian pagan religion. My suggestion would be to move it to "Carthaginian Religion".-- Ermenrich ( talk) 16:08, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Since I've heard no objections I've gone ahead and made the move.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 14:04, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
The tophets and child sacrifice is now handled in some detail at Tophet#Carthage and the western Mediterranean. Should we reduce its size here somewhat?-- Ermenrich ( talk) 14:17, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
I removed this text:
According to Whitney Smith, the
Star and crescent was first emblazoned on standards and buildings in the Punic state of
Carthage, located in present-day Tunisia. Nevertheless, they were widely adopted by Muslim countries, and have become known as symbols of Islam, when in fact, they may be cultural symbols.
[1] Likewise, the sun is often represented with the crescent on ancient Punic artifacts and is associated with the ancient Punic religion, especially with the Sign of Tanit.
[2]
The first bit appears to be OR and does not match the source (Britannica) which actually says The Turkish national flag colour for centuries has been red, and ships from Tunisia, like private vessels throughout the Ottoman Empire, flew red ensigns. The current Tunisian national flag, established in 1835, contains a crescent and star on a white disk, also long used by the Turks. The history of those symbols is more ancient than the Ottoman Empire, however. Many nations and civilizations of the Middle East from the days of the ancient Egyptians and Phoenicians had employed standards with the horns of an ox or a crescent moon of the same shape. The Punic state of Carthage, which had existed in the same area as modern Tunisia, emblazoned the crescent moon on its standards and buildings, although the symbol was not chosen by Tunisia because of that association.
As you'll see nothing about how this Carthaginian symbol has been adopted by Islam. The second citation likewise appears to be synth and or and is also incomplete.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 21:28, 26 July 2022 (UTC) Ermenrich ( talk) 21:28, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
I think that's the right call. Cheers! Furius ( talk) 06:38, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
"Early use of the hamsa could be traced to ancient Carthage [3] (modern-day Tunisia) and ancient North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula ( Spain and Portugal). An 8th-century BCE Israelite tomb containing a hamsa-like hand inscription was discovered at Khirbet el-Qom. The image of the open right hand is seen in Mesopotamian (modern day Iraq and Kuwait) artifacts in the amulets of the goddess Inanna or Ishtar. [4]"which in turn its source states
"The first known use of the symbol can be traced to the civilization of Phoenicia that spread across the Mediterranean between 1550 – 330 BCE. The Phoenicians used an image of the hand to represent Tanit, patron goddess of their capital city Carthage and controller of the lunar cycle."
"The current Tunisian national flag, established in 1835, contains a crescent and star on a white disk, also long used by the Turks. The history of those symbols is more ancient than the Ottoman Empire, however. Many nations and civilizations of the Middle East from the days of the ancient Egyptians and Phoenicians had employed standards with the horns of an ox or a crescent moon of the same shape. The Punic state of Carthage, which had existed in the same area as modern Tunisia, emblazoned the crescent moon on its standards and buildings, although the symbol was not chosen by Tunisia because of that association. The crescent and star have greater cultural than religious symbolism. However, because they have been widely adopted by Muslim countries such as Tunisia, they have developed a strong association with Islam.", so I propose to paraphrase it as such here instead of the formulation done in the tunisian flag article. Asmodim ( talk) 17:33, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
References
Sonbolp355
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).@ Hans van Deukeren: the section you added is very welcome, but you only have one citation supporting the text. This means that it is impossible to tell whether what you've added is WP:original research or WP:synthesis. Would you be able to add more citations to back up the information you've added?-- Ermenrich ( talk) 21:06, 3 December 2022 (UTC)