![]() | Pumi dog was nominated as a Natural sciences good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (March 3, 2018). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
Firstly, these dogs are the cutest thing ever. Secondly, it looks like for this dog, and its relative, the Puli, the AKC is using the Hungarian plural, Pumik and Pulik. Should this page reflect this pluralization or should we keep it as it is presently, using the English language plural of Pumis?
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ehgarrick ( talk • contribs) 01:52, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Campine (chicken) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 01:16, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from:
http://www.k9magazine.com/history-pumi-dog/. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see
"using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or
"donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Jack Frost ( talk) 00:13, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
This material had been on the page since December 2015 (with citation from April 2016), and since this was flagged just now I have copy edited the relevant paragraphs and restored the deleted information, re-written and supported by citation. MapReader ( talk) 11:13, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
I have been working to improve this article, and wanted to flag one potential controversy arising from the citations, which is whether or not the Pumi breed actually has terrier blood, as distinct from simply some terrier-like characteristics. The earlier version of the article stated categorically that it does not, but the only citation I could find to support this was a quote from a contemporary member of the American breed club, with nothing from history or science to back it up. Whereas a number of citations including some from Hungary suggest that cross-breeding with terriers is likely to have taken place. The truth may be that we will never know (without rigorous DNA analysis?), but for the revised text I have gone with the balance of citations that indicate probable cross-breeding with some terriers, along with various sheepdogs, in the 17th-18th centuries. MapReader ( talk) 11:18, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
I think we can treat this as confirmed; the summary published by the UK Kennel Club appears definitive. MapReader ( talk) 22:24, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
Hello User:MapReader, we meet here once again. Regarding the text "The ancestral Hungarian herding dog appears to have migrated with the Magyars and their livestock from the Ural-Altay region, between China and the Caspian Sea, to the Carpathian Basin around 800 AD, writes Meir Ben-Dror." This person is a board member of the [ Hungarian Pumi Club of America], and therefore is not an WP:INDEPENDENT source.
Regarding "This dog most likely can be traced back to the Tibetan herding/guard dogs (Tsang Apso, mistakenly called terriers by Europeans) originated from China and Tibet and were widespread among various tribes in the region." Who has done the tracing? Do you believe that "most likely" is evidence strong enough to be included in an encyclopedia (is the editor of K9 magazine a dog historian?)
Yes, the material is cited, but I question the value of a no-author-given piece of writing in a dog magazine that has no references. And on this basis, we appear to be happy stating that this dog originates from China and Tibet? William Harris (talk) 20:28, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
@ MapReader If you have an issue with anything I've removed discuss it here - where I will explain my rational for all of my changes.
For litter size and life span: neither source (dogsbreedlist.info and petguide.com) meet WP:RS, other editors have identified these sources as unreliable and to avoid/remove them.
For coat maintenance I recommend you to look at WP:NOTAGUIDEBOOK
I removed the kennel club behavioural claim as they are not WP:INDEPENDENT the second paragraph is generic and can be applied to any dog breed, plus it's not reliable.
All of the health section fails WP:MEDRS. Traumnovelle ( talk) 02:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
I take issue with the second paragraph of the description section, specifically the content sourced to www.aboquadogs.com and http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dogs/dogs-that-do-not-shed.aspx - neither source is reliable the former is just some breeder's personal website and the latter is possibly user generated? If it's not user generated it has seemingly no editorial oversight.
I also take issue with the temperament section, specifically the first paragraph and the second referenced section of the second. Both sources used petwave.com and the Kennel Club breed standard aren't reliable in this instance. Petwave itself is a completely unreliable source and the Kennel Club is a primary source with obvious bias. The claim 'never aggressive or overly shy' is absurd: a dog of any breed is capable of aggression.
As for health claims any breed club cannot be a reliable source as they are biased and a primary source; there is no oversight process for their information and no way to know if it's truthful or not. Furthermore the UK kennel club data relies on breeders/owners actually reporting data, a breeder may simply choose to not report a negative result - the German Shepherd Dog breed club for example doesn't participate in these screenings and questionnaires to avoid scrutiny. Traumnovelle ( talk) 06:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
![]() | Pumi dog was nominated as a Natural sciences good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (March 3, 2018). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
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Firstly, these dogs are the cutest thing ever. Secondly, it looks like for this dog, and its relative, the Puli, the AKC is using the Hungarian plural, Pumik and Pulik. Should this page reflect this pluralization or should we keep it as it is presently, using the English language plural of Pumis?
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ehgarrick ( talk • contribs) 01:52, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Campine (chicken) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 01:16, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from:
http://www.k9magazine.com/history-pumi-dog/. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see
"using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or
"donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Jack Frost ( talk) 00:13, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
This material had been on the page since December 2015 (with citation from April 2016), and since this was flagged just now I have copy edited the relevant paragraphs and restored the deleted information, re-written and supported by citation. MapReader ( talk) 11:13, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
I have been working to improve this article, and wanted to flag one potential controversy arising from the citations, which is whether or not the Pumi breed actually has terrier blood, as distinct from simply some terrier-like characteristics. The earlier version of the article stated categorically that it does not, but the only citation I could find to support this was a quote from a contemporary member of the American breed club, with nothing from history or science to back it up. Whereas a number of citations including some from Hungary suggest that cross-breeding with terriers is likely to have taken place. The truth may be that we will never know (without rigorous DNA analysis?), but for the revised text I have gone with the balance of citations that indicate probable cross-breeding with some terriers, along with various sheepdogs, in the 17th-18th centuries. MapReader ( talk) 11:18, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
I think we can treat this as confirmed; the summary published by the UK Kennel Club appears definitive. MapReader ( talk) 22:24, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
Hello User:MapReader, we meet here once again. Regarding the text "The ancestral Hungarian herding dog appears to have migrated with the Magyars and their livestock from the Ural-Altay region, between China and the Caspian Sea, to the Carpathian Basin around 800 AD, writes Meir Ben-Dror." This person is a board member of the [ Hungarian Pumi Club of America], and therefore is not an WP:INDEPENDENT source.
Regarding "This dog most likely can be traced back to the Tibetan herding/guard dogs (Tsang Apso, mistakenly called terriers by Europeans) originated from China and Tibet and were widespread among various tribes in the region." Who has done the tracing? Do you believe that "most likely" is evidence strong enough to be included in an encyclopedia (is the editor of K9 magazine a dog historian?)
Yes, the material is cited, but I question the value of a no-author-given piece of writing in a dog magazine that has no references. And on this basis, we appear to be happy stating that this dog originates from China and Tibet? William Harris (talk) 20:28, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
@ MapReader If you have an issue with anything I've removed discuss it here - where I will explain my rational for all of my changes.
For litter size and life span: neither source (dogsbreedlist.info and petguide.com) meet WP:RS, other editors have identified these sources as unreliable and to avoid/remove them.
For coat maintenance I recommend you to look at WP:NOTAGUIDEBOOK
I removed the kennel club behavioural claim as they are not WP:INDEPENDENT the second paragraph is generic and can be applied to any dog breed, plus it's not reliable.
All of the health section fails WP:MEDRS. Traumnovelle ( talk) 02:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
I take issue with the second paragraph of the description section, specifically the content sourced to www.aboquadogs.com and http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dogs/dogs-that-do-not-shed.aspx - neither source is reliable the former is just some breeder's personal website and the latter is possibly user generated? If it's not user generated it has seemingly no editorial oversight.
I also take issue with the temperament section, specifically the first paragraph and the second referenced section of the second. Both sources used petwave.com and the Kennel Club breed standard aren't reliable in this instance. Petwave itself is a completely unreliable source and the Kennel Club is a primary source with obvious bias. The claim 'never aggressive or overly shy' is absurd: a dog of any breed is capable of aggression.
As for health claims any breed club cannot be a reliable source as they are biased and a primary source; there is no oversight process for their information and no way to know if it's truthful or not. Furthermore the UK kennel club data relies on breeders/owners actually reporting data, a breeder may simply choose to not report a negative result - the German Shepherd Dog breed club for example doesn't participate in these screenings and questionnaires to avoid scrutiny. Traumnovelle ( talk) 06:38, 26 February 2024 (UTC)