The information has been very useful for me indeed. Thank you very much.
Weak on international criminal law. Expand. Mention ICC, Nuremburg, &c., &c.? -- Daniel C. Boyer
Someone's uploaded a lot of historical information at International Law -- needs integrating in here and other relevant places. -- Sam
From Talk:International Law ( Jerzy (t) notes: the two following two 'graphs came to this page in edit of 22:21, 2003 Sep 17 . . Ap (merging with Talk:International law) ):
This needs to be integrated into international law, and perhaps other places. Also, where's it from? -- Sam
I AM THE ONE WHO WROTE THIS MATERIAL. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT I HAVE RETURNED TO THIS SITE IN OVER A YEAR. THE MATERIAL IS MY OWN, BUT BASED ON LECTURES. IF IT IS THE STYLE THAT IS UNWANTED, THEN DELETE THEM, BUT IF IT IS ONLY FEAR OVER INFRINGEMENTE, THEN DO NOT WORRY, KEEP THEM. User:12.223.87.232
per history of Talk:International Law (now a redirect),
-- Jerzy (t) 17:19, 2004 Apr 16 (UTC)
I only scanned, but i know at least that the string "forbear..." is missing from the article; IIRC, an important aspect of IL is that its force over states does not arise from sovereignty over them (as sovereignty rests only in the various states) but in large part from the precedents implicitly set by the practices and "forbearances" of states. This may be important to bring in.
(Logically -- which may of course be irrelevant -- this extends even to treaty obligations: who gets to says that treaties are binding, rather than being merely rhetorical devices that sovereigns and sovereign states use to reassure 3rd parties about the immediate future? They can do that; they are sovereign, after all! Oops, is that original research?) -- Jerzy (t) 17:19, 2004 Apr 16 (UTC)
There's a lot of interesting stuff in here, but the article is a) poorly structured, in that it leaps from the general (basis for international law) to the specific (grievances brought to the General Assembly, which has no authority to deal with international law); commingling great specificity in history with generalities elsewhere; etc. Somebody needs to rewrite the article to show the background for, structure of, practical workings of, and issues related to international law. -- Leifern 02:56, 2005 Mar 22 (UTC)
I am interested in cleaning up this article signficantly.
Particularly on issues that are relatively uncontroversial such as the Sources of International Law - specifically jus cogens, treaties, customary law, state practice, etc... and propose to detail the signficance of each in detailed fashion under bullets.
This would probably involve the deletion of the existing structure and I was wondering if that is acceptable under existing Wikipedia norms?
Just a note to say that I moved this page (from International law to Public international law) to avoid confusion with Private international law. I realise that it has created quite a few 'double redirects' however I intend to fix these tonight using AWB. Cynical 12:27, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed the hyperlink on "law of nations", which brings one to a Law of Nation page which just redirects back to this article. This is pointless because "law of nations" is another name for this article, therefore it is unnecessary. Lucky 23 06:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
What are the sources of the "Branches of international law" section? I added Laws of war to the "See also" section. I had a look at WikiProject International law but I don't see much recent activity (since May). Is anyone watching this article? What has been decided about the moves mentioned above? My focus is on the International community article, which depends heavily on this one. • CQ 22:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC) • WP:CBTF
Why can't the guy who wrote this start off simple. All you have to say that THERE ARE FOUR TYPES OF INTERNATIONAL LAW (TRADE AND COMMERCE, TREATY, HUMAN RIGHTS, AND CRIMINAL). IS IT THAT HARD?
The comment immediately above is misconceived. How can "TREATY" be a seperate branch or type of international law when the other three branches/types all have treaty law as one of their main sources? Equally there is also a lot of overlap between criminal and human rights in the form of international humanitarian law.-- Lucifer(sc) 11:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't the Melian Dialogue by Thucydides mentioned in this article? It is one of the earliest conecepts of the international law arguement and one of the most important. Also this article seems to take the position that international law exists when an arguement can be made that it doesn't. -- Firebird 04:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree. One of the dominant strains of international political theory (realism) poses that international law is mere "superstructure" and largely irrelevant to how states interact. In addition, the sections on enforcement need serious work. They do not even mention that, in an anarchic legal environment (i.e., one with no overarching sovereign), enforcement by its very nature is self-help.
Epstein's Mother
23:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Cleanup required: International law versus the above!!!
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ludvikus ( talk • contribs) 15:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
I suggest deleting the following quote from the introduction:
First, it's POV. Arguably, public international law is not normative at all, but contractual ("you do X, and I will do Y"). Second, it's meaningless. I mean that seriously. Parse the sentence, and it doesn't make any sense. What is a normative system harnessed to the achievement of common values? How can a normative system be harnessed? If you have common values, why would you need a normative system? It's just post-modern jargon without any substance. Epstein's Mother 04:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure I agree with the comment that the UN provides a constitution for public international law. Public International Law existed long before the UN did in its own form, and as the world has changed (explosion in the number of states, scarcity of resources, post-colonialism/self-determination, globalisation etc) has undergone its own transformation to make it fit for purpose. The UN is a complex organisation in and of itself, and the only way it could be considered as being of grave importance is thanks to its court, the ICJ which is the only court at the moment with a general jurisdiction, as opposed to a special subject matter jurisdiction. Granted, art 38 of the statute of the ICJ does outline some of the sources of PIL, but that itself is hardly a contentious matter - again, states have long recognised themselves subject to treaties they enter into and other customary laws. Sephui 23:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC) Sephui 23:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I have posted an "international law" question on another part of this Wikepedia page. But I am not sure how active a discussion this page is. Some of the edits are fairly old. I do have a question regarding international law and it relates to another Wikepedia page called "Originas of World War One". It involves a country's right to mobilize. Any input would be most appreciated. EdwardLovette ( talk) 03:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
The difference in approach of the present EAC is the involment of the peoples of the region through sensitization of all sectors of the stakeholders, the mistake made by the defunct EAC which is, according to our opinion, is being ignored by the European Union. In most cases where the peoples of Europe are consulted, a good percentage have opted against the trends taken by the institutional leaders. However, the strength of the new approach of the EAC is still to be proved by time.
I have addes a "See also Martens Clause", perhapse if someone is interested they could weave a mention of it directly into this text, as it has had a large effect on Internation humanitarian law and the interpretation of IHL treaties. -- Philip Baird Shearer 10:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Main article: European Union law "The European Union is the first and only example of a supra-national legal framework, where sovereign nations have pooled their authority through a system of courts and political institutions. It constitutes a new legal order in international law[1] [1] for the mutual social and economic benefit of the member states."
I challenge the forgoing and intend to delete it as OR.
Persuade me that the EU and not the League of Nations is the first supra-national legal framework? As far as I know, the EU doesn't have a constitution, nor has sovereignity been ceeded - except by treaty. The League of Nations, NATO and the UN entered into Charters (Constitutions), which puts them ahead of the EU? Raggz 09:00, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Either usage is better. And the former conforms to Wiki style. Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 11:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Accordingly, we should REVERT. Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 18:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I call the editors attention to the Wiki style practice/format to make distinctions as follows: [[Term (qualification)]]. Accordingly, we should revert. -- Ludvikus 18:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
It aapears to me that the editors herein essentially adopted usages - contrary to Wikipedia style - in the context of the need to Disambiguate. Unless such usage as these are justified, we must conform to Wiki style if we wish to distinguish between Private , and Public, International law. -- Ludvikus 18:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
== Public international law == Do not change the page in that way. I have posted a comment on the page. You are incorrect, whatever the wikistyle that you've come up with. There's a correct and an incorrect title, and the one you've chosen is incorrect. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold"> [[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 23:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
== References == * Brownlie, Ian (2003) Principles of Public International Law, Oxford University Press, 6th Ed., ISBN 0199260710
Please check out the Copyright question I'm being asked about the beautiful poster above. I only repaired the damage. So I cannot answer the Copyright questions I'm being asked. -- Ludvikus 11:51, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I've done several edits to the section on "US View on International Law"; it's getting really long, and I think it might be time to move it to a separate page, perhaps called "Public International Law and the United States".
Also, I just wrote a section on "lawfare" and added it to the "US view" section; I'm not sure that it's NPOV; I'd encourage others to ruthlessly edit it.
I've also tried to tone down what might be viewed as a slight stridency in some of my previous writing in the US section; it still is probably POV. As I'm from the US, and strongly believe in international humanitarian law, and favor US support for humanitarian law, it might be a bit biased, at least from systemic bias, if not outright political bias.
Other perspectives would be welcome. Efforts to find sources to cite also would be great, if anyone's interested. Katana0182 —Preceding comment was added at 18:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I've done several edits to the section on "US View on International Law"; it's getting really long, and I think it might be time to move it to a separate page, perhaps called "Public International Law and the United States".
Also, I just wrote a section on "lawfare" and added it to the "US view" section; I'm not sure that it's NPOV; I'd encourage others to ruthlessly edit it.
I've also tried to tone down what might be viewed as a slight stridency in some of my previous writing in the US section; it still is probably POV. As I'm from the US, and strongly believe in international humanitarian law, and favor US support for humanitarian law, it might be a bit biased, at least from systemic bias, if not outright political bias.
Other perspectives would be welcome. Efforts to find sources to cite also would be great, if anyone's interested. Katana0182 —Preceding comment was added at 18:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I have been involved in a "legal" discussion with another Wikepedia page relating to International Law. They dismissed my question as "unanswerable". The Wikepedia article in question is "Origins of World War One". A former Assistant U.S. Attorney General named James M. Beck published a book in 1914 called "Evidence in the case". It can be downloaded for free at Archive.org. The author states that "the response to mobilization is mobilization. The response is not to declare war". I was hoping someone on this page could tell me if under the international law in place in 1914, was that true? Thank you in advance for any help regarding this matter. I can do the research myself, but not being an attorney, it would be a much slower result. EdwardLovette ( talk) 02:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I reverted to an earlier version because I don't think the new revisions describing interpretation of customary international law as a "political process" shared between the three branches of the U.S. government adequately describe the point being made. First, as discussed previously in the article, while Congress and the courts do play a role in setting and interpreting customary international law, in most cases (which is the point of the sentence in question), this is something determined entirely by the President with advice from the State Dept.'s legal counsel. Technically speaking, court decisions are not part of the "political process" (the executive and legislative branches being the "political" branches of government since they are elected). Second, the number of appellate and Supreme Court decisions, and Congressional acts, interpreting customary international law are quite rare, notwithstanding Hamdan and the foreign detainees act. Indeed, they are the exception that proves the rule, since they came about quite unusually in reaction to an interpretation of treaty law (not so much customary international law) that others objected to. Third, interpretation of customary international law is part of the foreign policy powers of the presidency -- which makes sense when you think that customary international law can be changed almost overnight (see, for example, the history of unrestricted submarine warfare, or the international slave trade) if major states change their activities. Finally, the sentence really is hedged -- it doesn't say that this is always the case, just that it is mostly the case (which is accurate). Epstein's Mother 17:53, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
The information has been very useful for me indeed. Thank you very much.
Weak on international criminal law. Expand. Mention ICC, Nuremburg, &c., &c.? -- Daniel C. Boyer
Someone's uploaded a lot of historical information at International Law -- needs integrating in here and other relevant places. -- Sam
From Talk:International Law ( Jerzy (t) notes: the two following two 'graphs came to this page in edit of 22:21, 2003 Sep 17 . . Ap (merging with Talk:International law) ):
This needs to be integrated into international law, and perhaps other places. Also, where's it from? -- Sam
I AM THE ONE WHO WROTE THIS MATERIAL. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT I HAVE RETURNED TO THIS SITE IN OVER A YEAR. THE MATERIAL IS MY OWN, BUT BASED ON LECTURES. IF IT IS THE STYLE THAT IS UNWANTED, THEN DELETE THEM, BUT IF IT IS ONLY FEAR OVER INFRINGEMENTE, THEN DO NOT WORRY, KEEP THEM. User:12.223.87.232
per history of Talk:International Law (now a redirect),
-- Jerzy (t) 17:19, 2004 Apr 16 (UTC)
I only scanned, but i know at least that the string "forbear..." is missing from the article; IIRC, an important aspect of IL is that its force over states does not arise from sovereignty over them (as sovereignty rests only in the various states) but in large part from the precedents implicitly set by the practices and "forbearances" of states. This may be important to bring in.
(Logically -- which may of course be irrelevant -- this extends even to treaty obligations: who gets to says that treaties are binding, rather than being merely rhetorical devices that sovereigns and sovereign states use to reassure 3rd parties about the immediate future? They can do that; they are sovereign, after all! Oops, is that original research?) -- Jerzy (t) 17:19, 2004 Apr 16 (UTC)
There's a lot of interesting stuff in here, but the article is a) poorly structured, in that it leaps from the general (basis for international law) to the specific (grievances brought to the General Assembly, which has no authority to deal with international law); commingling great specificity in history with generalities elsewhere; etc. Somebody needs to rewrite the article to show the background for, structure of, practical workings of, and issues related to international law. -- Leifern 02:56, 2005 Mar 22 (UTC)
I am interested in cleaning up this article signficantly.
Particularly on issues that are relatively uncontroversial such as the Sources of International Law - specifically jus cogens, treaties, customary law, state practice, etc... and propose to detail the signficance of each in detailed fashion under bullets.
This would probably involve the deletion of the existing structure and I was wondering if that is acceptable under existing Wikipedia norms?
Just a note to say that I moved this page (from International law to Public international law) to avoid confusion with Private international law. I realise that it has created quite a few 'double redirects' however I intend to fix these tonight using AWB. Cynical 12:27, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I removed the hyperlink on "law of nations", which brings one to a Law of Nation page which just redirects back to this article. This is pointless because "law of nations" is another name for this article, therefore it is unnecessary. Lucky 23 06:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
What are the sources of the "Branches of international law" section? I added Laws of war to the "See also" section. I had a look at WikiProject International law but I don't see much recent activity (since May). Is anyone watching this article? What has been decided about the moves mentioned above? My focus is on the International community article, which depends heavily on this one. • CQ 22:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC) • WP:CBTF
Why can't the guy who wrote this start off simple. All you have to say that THERE ARE FOUR TYPES OF INTERNATIONAL LAW (TRADE AND COMMERCE, TREATY, HUMAN RIGHTS, AND CRIMINAL). IS IT THAT HARD?
The comment immediately above is misconceived. How can "TREATY" be a seperate branch or type of international law when the other three branches/types all have treaty law as one of their main sources? Equally there is also a lot of overlap between criminal and human rights in the form of international humanitarian law.-- Lucifer(sc) 11:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't the Melian Dialogue by Thucydides mentioned in this article? It is one of the earliest conecepts of the international law arguement and one of the most important. Also this article seems to take the position that international law exists when an arguement can be made that it doesn't. -- Firebird 04:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree. One of the dominant strains of international political theory (realism) poses that international law is mere "superstructure" and largely irrelevant to how states interact. In addition, the sections on enforcement need serious work. They do not even mention that, in an anarchic legal environment (i.e., one with no overarching sovereign), enforcement by its very nature is self-help.
Epstein's Mother
23:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Cleanup required: International law versus the above!!!
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ludvikus ( talk • contribs) 15:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
I suggest deleting the following quote from the introduction:
First, it's POV. Arguably, public international law is not normative at all, but contractual ("you do X, and I will do Y"). Second, it's meaningless. I mean that seriously. Parse the sentence, and it doesn't make any sense. What is a normative system harnessed to the achievement of common values? How can a normative system be harnessed? If you have common values, why would you need a normative system? It's just post-modern jargon without any substance. Epstein's Mother 04:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure I agree with the comment that the UN provides a constitution for public international law. Public International Law existed long before the UN did in its own form, and as the world has changed (explosion in the number of states, scarcity of resources, post-colonialism/self-determination, globalisation etc) has undergone its own transformation to make it fit for purpose. The UN is a complex organisation in and of itself, and the only way it could be considered as being of grave importance is thanks to its court, the ICJ which is the only court at the moment with a general jurisdiction, as opposed to a special subject matter jurisdiction. Granted, art 38 of the statute of the ICJ does outline some of the sources of PIL, but that itself is hardly a contentious matter - again, states have long recognised themselves subject to treaties they enter into and other customary laws. Sephui 23:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC) Sephui 23:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I have posted an "international law" question on another part of this Wikepedia page. But I am not sure how active a discussion this page is. Some of the edits are fairly old. I do have a question regarding international law and it relates to another Wikepedia page called "Originas of World War One". It involves a country's right to mobilize. Any input would be most appreciated. EdwardLovette ( talk) 03:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
The difference in approach of the present EAC is the involment of the peoples of the region through sensitization of all sectors of the stakeholders, the mistake made by the defunct EAC which is, according to our opinion, is being ignored by the European Union. In most cases where the peoples of Europe are consulted, a good percentage have opted against the trends taken by the institutional leaders. However, the strength of the new approach of the EAC is still to be proved by time.
I have addes a "See also Martens Clause", perhapse if someone is interested they could weave a mention of it directly into this text, as it has had a large effect on Internation humanitarian law and the interpretation of IHL treaties. -- Philip Baird Shearer 10:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Main article: European Union law "The European Union is the first and only example of a supra-national legal framework, where sovereign nations have pooled their authority through a system of courts and political institutions. It constitutes a new legal order in international law[1] [1] for the mutual social and economic benefit of the member states."
I challenge the forgoing and intend to delete it as OR.
Persuade me that the EU and not the League of Nations is the first supra-national legal framework? As far as I know, the EU doesn't have a constitution, nor has sovereignity been ceeded - except by treaty. The League of Nations, NATO and the UN entered into Charters (Constitutions), which puts them ahead of the EU? Raggz 09:00, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
Either usage is better. And the former conforms to Wiki style. Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 11:30, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Accordingly, we should REVERT. Yours truly, -- Ludvikus 18:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
I call the editors attention to the Wiki style practice/format to make distinctions as follows: [[Term (qualification)]]. Accordingly, we should revert. -- Ludvikus 18:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
It aapears to me that the editors herein essentially adopted usages - contrary to Wikipedia style - in the context of the need to Disambiguate. Unless such usage as these are justified, we must conform to Wiki style if we wish to distinguish between Private , and Public, International law. -- Ludvikus 18:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
== Public international law == Do not change the page in that way. I have posted a comment on the page. You are incorrect, whatever the wikistyle that you've come up with. There's a correct and an incorrect title, and the one you've chosen is incorrect. '''<font color="red">[[User:Wikidea|Wik]]</font><font color="gold"> [[User:Wikidea|idea]]</font>''' 23:20, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
== References == * Brownlie, Ian (2003) Principles of Public International Law, Oxford University Press, 6th Ed., ISBN 0199260710
Please check out the Copyright question I'm being asked about the beautiful poster above. I only repaired the damage. So I cannot answer the Copyright questions I'm being asked. -- Ludvikus 11:51, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I've done several edits to the section on "US View on International Law"; it's getting really long, and I think it might be time to move it to a separate page, perhaps called "Public International Law and the United States".
Also, I just wrote a section on "lawfare" and added it to the "US view" section; I'm not sure that it's NPOV; I'd encourage others to ruthlessly edit it.
I've also tried to tone down what might be viewed as a slight stridency in some of my previous writing in the US section; it still is probably POV. As I'm from the US, and strongly believe in international humanitarian law, and favor US support for humanitarian law, it might be a bit biased, at least from systemic bias, if not outright political bias.
Other perspectives would be welcome. Efforts to find sources to cite also would be great, if anyone's interested. Katana0182 —Preceding comment was added at 18:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I've done several edits to the section on "US View on International Law"; it's getting really long, and I think it might be time to move it to a separate page, perhaps called "Public International Law and the United States".
Also, I just wrote a section on "lawfare" and added it to the "US view" section; I'm not sure that it's NPOV; I'd encourage others to ruthlessly edit it.
I've also tried to tone down what might be viewed as a slight stridency in some of my previous writing in the US section; it still is probably POV. As I'm from the US, and strongly believe in international humanitarian law, and favor US support for humanitarian law, it might be a bit biased, at least from systemic bias, if not outright political bias.
Other perspectives would be welcome. Efforts to find sources to cite also would be great, if anyone's interested. Katana0182 —Preceding comment was added at 18:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I have been involved in a "legal" discussion with another Wikepedia page relating to International Law. They dismissed my question as "unanswerable". The Wikepedia article in question is "Origins of World War One". A former Assistant U.S. Attorney General named James M. Beck published a book in 1914 called "Evidence in the case". It can be downloaded for free at Archive.org. The author states that "the response to mobilization is mobilization. The response is not to declare war". I was hoping someone on this page could tell me if under the international law in place in 1914, was that true? Thank you in advance for any help regarding this matter. I can do the research myself, but not being an attorney, it would be a much slower result. EdwardLovette ( talk) 02:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I reverted to an earlier version because I don't think the new revisions describing interpretation of customary international law as a "political process" shared between the three branches of the U.S. government adequately describe the point being made. First, as discussed previously in the article, while Congress and the courts do play a role in setting and interpreting customary international law, in most cases (which is the point of the sentence in question), this is something determined entirely by the President with advice from the State Dept.'s legal counsel. Technically speaking, court decisions are not part of the "political process" (the executive and legislative branches being the "political" branches of government since they are elected). Second, the number of appellate and Supreme Court decisions, and Congressional acts, interpreting customary international law are quite rare, notwithstanding Hamdan and the foreign detainees act. Indeed, they are the exception that proves the rule, since they came about quite unusually in reaction to an interpretation of treaty law (not so much customary international law) that others objected to. Third, interpretation of customary international law is part of the foreign policy powers of the presidency -- which makes sense when you think that customary international law can be changed almost overnight (see, for example, the history of unrestricted submarine warfare, or the international slave trade) if major states change their activities. Finally, the sentence really is hedged -- it doesn't say that this is always the case, just that it is mostly the case (which is accurate). Epstein's Mother 17:53, 2 December 2007 (UTC)