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I was about to revert the changes made by Weggie on October 25, but I think that the supposed blatant PoV he claims is something to be discussed here.
There are some questions to be made about:
Thanks.
First of all, You didn't answer any of the questions, especially that related to the Republican political goal of removing the military presence from S.A.. If just the first question has an affirmative response (by You or by other readers), then the brief line I wrote should stand in the article.
In the other hand, yup, the British were unbeaten as well, but they are the third (if not the second) best army in the world (the Republicans were just a well organized guerrilla or terrorist group, not the Wehrmacht), and they outnumbered the IRA by far. As You say, the British also have helicopters and electronic surveillance; the IRA didn't, and still it was undefeated. The UK forces wanted and could have the IRA eliminated, both politically and military, but they failed; the Republicans realized that they couldn't do the same to the British long time before. Well, I concede that all this is just a point of view.
I guess you can think the East German Army and the Soviets were also undefeated when the Berlin wall fell, as part of another peace process; yes, that could be an interesting PoV too. Yet, the desire of freedom of the German people was accomplished anyway. Best regards.
Well, the first question remained unanswered, so In my opinion the line I've introduced sometime ago should be restored in the article, unless somebody could get out claiming that the Republicans and their supporters welcomed the presence of UK troops in the region. I am not posting something like "The IRA forced the British Army out", or "The Republican pressure expelled the British security presence", what would be obviously PoV, I just wanted to reflect the fact that, as a result of the GFA, Republicans achieved a major political objective by obtaining the so called "normalization" in South Armagh.
About the other issues, Ok, may be the BA soldiers were there not to wipe out anyone, but the SAS still gunned down almost all the members of East Tyrone'ra Brigade and the Gibraltar three. Also a good number of civilians or unarmed Republican sympathizers fell to Royal Army bullets since Bloody Sunday up to the cease-fires. It's obvious they failed to do the same in S.A., but certainly the cause was not self-restraint. DagosNavy 16:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, Weggie. Finally, you have answered the key question: "The demilitarisation of South Armagh was the aim of both the UK Govt. and the provos", so you have conceded that my statement must be included in the text. I insist, no matter the cause, no matter if it was also the goal of any other group or State, normalization in S.A. was a Republican objective, so I feel free to restore the line to the article. The PSNI doesn’t count as a military force, so its presence doesn’t change the validity of my statement.
Certainly, the other issues are PoV and a matter of discussion. The PSNI (unlike the now defunct RUC) is an entirely civilian new force, open to both communities and also open to a genuine cross-border cooperation. Even members of the Irish Garda can fill its ranks. Its aim is just normal policing for the community, without the strong militarized profile and the political bias that characterized the RUC. The PSNI doesn’t display the “Royal” title anymore, so the nationalist and republicans view of them will be that of a local force rather than a “brit” one. They will be accountable to the local residents trough the monitoring of the political parties, they will not use Army helicopters or watchtowers to control the life of the people in the border. The life will be as normal as in any place of Western Europe. In the other hand, the real criminals (Murphy and his fellows, if you want), will be just criminals, they will now be unable to hide themselves under the cover of a dubious "patriotism". They will cannot claim anymore the status of militants; they will be prosecuted as the mobsters they are.
The fact that the Caraher sniper team was handed over to the RUC and not executed in sight by the SAS was a political gesture, since by 1997 there was a great expectation for another PIRA cease-fire and the effect of another Loughgall would have been potentially disastrous to the Peace Process. The IRA army council was also showing some restraint in NI, waiting for the outcome of the May UK elections to enter the proposed multi-party talks. Had the capture of Caraher and his men took place (for example) in 1992, there is not doubt the sniper squad members would have died. Remember that the Royal Marines shoot dead Caraher’ brother in 1990 just for breaching a checkpoint or something lenient than that, I believe.
I would call this trigger-happy, not restraint. Wether they killed or arrested PIRA members in S.A., they never were able to neutralize the Brigade's activities.
DagosNavy
Ok, take it easy. I will include the statement with the clarification that the strategic goal yourself have already admitted was the aim of the provos and others, was the result of the GFA provisions and in exchange of the PIRA decommissioning, avoiding any reference to words like achievement or retreat. I repeat, I never intended to post nothing more than the fact that the normalisation was a political objective of the Sinn Fein/IRA, since this is an article about the Republican main force in S.A., not about the GFA or about the British Army in NI. I think this modification cannot be seen as PoV in any way. DagosNavy
Image:XmaglenSniper.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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BetacommandBot 19:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
The sniper information belongs in this article, not tucked out of the way in an article that barely has any incoming links. One Night In Hackney 303 17:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Bishopsgate wasn't a South Armagh operation, it was an England Department operation. The England Department used personnel from South Armagh. You want evidence of the unsourced stuff? In no particular order....
And I could go on and on and on if you really want me to? There's so much stuff in this article that's not supported by sources it's untrue. Once that's gone it quite easily goes in the main Brigade article. One Night In Hackney 303 23:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Strongly Disagree - just read the South Armagh Sniper (1990-1997) article; it's good; a lot of information in it - far too much to be merged. I understand ONIH has some issues with the references? Sarah777 ( talk) 01:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Also disagree. Could do with some improvements but otherwise deserves to be treated as a stand-alone article. GiollaUidir ( talk) 16:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Also Disagree - Culnacréann- (talk) 22:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
No capitals, please, be civil. If I added a header, is because the following Wikipedia guideline (which you ignored by reopening an alredy closed discussion):
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Have I to repeat that the discussion about improving the South Armagh Sniper article should be discussed, as any of the other millions of Wikipedias articles, in its own talk-page?. There is no other issue to adress here than the proposed merge, and we have the opinion of six different users with no agreement in sight, and no comments by new users for a month.-- Darius ( talk) 22:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Your comments after 02/08/2008 and those of 'Republican Jacobite' (no depth analysis in his posting at all) were aimed to the weaken points of the article (about the sniper), not to the reasons for merging, nor to my arguments against it. On the other hand, the article was heavily edited and improved since then.-- Darius ( talk) 23:53, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Trolling refers to deliberate and intentional attempts to disrupt the usability of Wikipedia for its editors, administrators, developers, and other people who work to create content for and help run Wikipedia. Trolling is deliberate violation of the implicit rules of Internet social spaces. It necessarily involves a value judgment made by one user about the value of another's contribution.(...)The archetypal example of trolling is the deliberately inflammatory edit or post — saying something controversial specifically to cause a flame war. Inflammatory edits usually come from users who have a minority or controversial opinion and who sincerely believe that this view is inadequately represented by Wikipedia; trolls, however, will generally not seek consensus but will instead insist on a position without any regard for compromise.(...)
Deliberate misuse of processes is a favourite troll game.
Well, it's over for me. Probably we will talk again when you and others reach consensus to merge, according to Wikipedia rules...10 years from now, I guess. Bye.-- Darius ( talk) 00:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
P.S.: Ah, I almost forget something; if you close this discussion in the future, I will reopen it and revert the changes in the articles, just as you did before.-- Darius ( talk) 22:05, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree Padraig, ONIH has stated the case well and there has not been anything in the way of strong arguments against. Would have added more points only ONIH covered most of them already, as per usual. -- Domer48 ( talk) 01:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with the merge. I made some edits as unregistered in some of the articles about 'Irish Republican Army actions', and most of the actions described there were carried out by an specific PIRA brigade; no sense in merging all of them to the 5 or 4 brigades articles. The SA Sniper is part of the Irish Republican folk and tradition; the article should stand alone. I also agree with the opinion that the article is too long to merge here. IsaacMorrison ( talk) 02:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, Mr. 'Jacobite', you are questioning the South Armagh sniper article on the grounds that the PIRA unit was a 'small group' inside another group. Just browse the account of casualties at the CAIN site, out of 11 soldiers killed during the period 6 were victims of this nasty bunch: 55% of all military fatalities in NIR. At this stage of the Troubles, the usual thing for the provos was to kill out of duty soldiers; the sniper shot full combat-ready squaddies. Your point about numbers are, therefore, arguable, to say the least. The sniper chase was the main concern of the British military between 1992-1997. A little bunch, yes, but its deeds made an overall effect on 'The Troubles' from the security point of view. This is a fact, and facts and History preceded Wikipedia policies. Yes, those 'little rascals' deserve a separate article. Other reason for avoiding the merger is practical. Someone over there wrote that 'is far too much to be merged'. I think he was right, mergings only work for stubs, I think.-- IsaacMorrison ( talk) 18:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
"There are several good reasons to merge a page:
Duplicate - There are two or more pages on exactly the same subject and having the same scope.
Overlap - There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept in the universe. For example, "Flammable" and "Non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on Flammability.
Text - If a page is very short and is unlikely to be expanded within a reasonable amount of time, it often makes sense to merge it with a page on a broader topic. For instance, parents or children of a celebrity who are otherwise unremarkable are generally covered in a section of the article on the celebrity, and can be merged there.
Context - If a short article requires the background material or context from a broader article in order for readers to understand it. For instance, minor characters from works of fiction are generally covered in a "List of characters in <work>", and can be merged there; see also WP:FICT."
Point by point:
1) As long as I know, there is obviously no duplication of subjects-The sniper page subject are not the activities of the IRA in SA since 1968 to 1998.
2) There is not a large overlap; the sniper, as I mentioned before, had a significant impact in the Troubles and goes well beyond the routine activities of the Brigade: The common reader identifies the Sniper at work sign with the IRA, not specifically with the South Armagh Brigade, and some issues -general sniping activities inside the IRA, IRA importation of arms, some links, Bernard McGinn, not properly a South Armagh Brigade rank- overcome the Brigade's context. On the other hand: is the sniper so trivial to match a dictionary entry?.
3) The text is not a very short one, it has been assessed as Start and is almost as large as the article about the Brigade.
4) And for the context, the sniper is already in the category of Provisional IRA actions, so someone can hardly claim that the sniper material is "in the wilderness".
I think there is no ground to merge according to Wikipedia policies. And, I repeat, I feel free to revert any merging if no large consensus is achieved, since Wikipedia establishes that: If there is clear agreement with the proposal by consensus, or if there is silence, proceed with the merger. No clear agreement in sight, no merger.
If the other guy thinks that the Brigade article should be improved, according to his words: Your comments still fail to address the impact on "this" article, which has always been the main bone of contention., then the improving should be perform inside this article, but not at the expense of another.
The trolling suggestion from my part was a reaction to some uncivil attitudes of ONIH, like the use of derogative language and open inflammatory remarks (use of capitals, total bollocks for the edits of another user). I think he is, however, a honest wikipedian, but I will not tolerate any despising comment from anybody.-- Darius ( talk) 16:29, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
There is consensus for merging, well supported by reasoned arguements, suggesting you will revert any change, including a merging performed without the proper consensus is disruption! I suggest you don't go there. -- Domer48 ( talk) 21:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
P.S.:Be carefull! Somebody here is scanning the minds of other people! He knows whether you did read the sources of an article or not!.-- Darius ( talk) 03:18, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I don't think the articles should be merged, though this one should contain a section summarizing the contents of
South Armagh Sniper (1990-1997). And, while I'm here, can I remind everyone that
WP:CIVIL is policy and that editors ignoring it can be blocked? --
ROGER DAVIES
talk 20:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
(deindent). In that case, I'll give you an incomplete list now, in addition to what was stated at the top of the merge discussion. Information is taken from this version IIRC.
"Just because the person assessing it hasn't read the sources..." I do not need to read the sources to assess the article becuase the threshold for inclusion on Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. You could write a 92 kb page on the importance of the letter "e" in the word "the" and as long as you cite second and third party sources it would be permitted to stay. Thats also the reason why the fiction based projects here continue unabated, they deal with aspects of reality that exist only in someone elses imagination, yet the information in such articles can be varfied. Having said that, I will concede that both sides bring up good points. We could merge the article into this one, but given Hackney's failure to incorporate the sourced material on the sniper page here I have to wonder if this discussion is his way of making a WP:POINT. The sniper article itself appears notable is cited, and has achieved a B as noted earlier, but that shouldn't prevent a merger if a good policy established reason can be clearly stated as to why the two should be merged, and from what I see he claims four good reasons. As for consensus: I see 3 disagrees to the merge and two agrees to the merge, thats hardly consenses.
Taking all this in stride, my summary of the above debate is that the sniper article could be maintained as an independent article if better sourcing can be found, but should be integrated into this article because this article is the parent brigade which dealt with the sniper in the first place. Without all the added drama, would all involved parties agree that this is more or less the core of discussion, or have I left something important out? TomStar81 ( Talk) 21:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I would like to hear your opinion about the top photo in the article. It's a fair-use one, if you have any objections, please, left your comments here.-- Darius ( talk) 23:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I think there are some jobs to do to improve the narrative:
1)A brief summary about the Warrenpoint ambush.
2)A brief summary about the sniping activity.
3)A brief summary about the Docklands bombing, an entirely SA Brigade operation.
4)If possible, free images in order to illustrate some points.
DagosNavy 12:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent) It seems to me, and with great respect to everyone here, that it is a little premature to discuss the detail of this article until the SA sniper content is sorted to everyone's satisfaction. And can we all stop the personal stuff? It really doesn't help to move things on ... -- ROGER DAVIES talk 19:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
What I suggest is the following:
For clarity, I don't have strong views on the merger either way. My interest is purely in high quality Wikipedia articles. I also assume that other editors would prefer to channel their efforts and knowledge productively into the nitty-gritty of article improvement, each in their own way, rather than spending time bickering. -- ROGER DAVIES talk 19:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
DagosNavy has become a SPA account, and acts as such. If they continue to add WP:OR they will be reverted as per policy. -- Domer48 ( talk) 12:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
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I was about to revert the changes made by Weggie on October 25, but I think that the supposed blatant PoV he claims is something to be discussed here.
There are some questions to be made about:
Thanks.
First of all, You didn't answer any of the questions, especially that related to the Republican political goal of removing the military presence from S.A.. If just the first question has an affirmative response (by You or by other readers), then the brief line I wrote should stand in the article.
In the other hand, yup, the British were unbeaten as well, but they are the third (if not the second) best army in the world (the Republicans were just a well organized guerrilla or terrorist group, not the Wehrmacht), and they outnumbered the IRA by far. As You say, the British also have helicopters and electronic surveillance; the IRA didn't, and still it was undefeated. The UK forces wanted and could have the IRA eliminated, both politically and military, but they failed; the Republicans realized that they couldn't do the same to the British long time before. Well, I concede that all this is just a point of view.
I guess you can think the East German Army and the Soviets were also undefeated when the Berlin wall fell, as part of another peace process; yes, that could be an interesting PoV too. Yet, the desire of freedom of the German people was accomplished anyway. Best regards.
Well, the first question remained unanswered, so In my opinion the line I've introduced sometime ago should be restored in the article, unless somebody could get out claiming that the Republicans and their supporters welcomed the presence of UK troops in the region. I am not posting something like "The IRA forced the British Army out", or "The Republican pressure expelled the British security presence", what would be obviously PoV, I just wanted to reflect the fact that, as a result of the GFA, Republicans achieved a major political objective by obtaining the so called "normalization" in South Armagh.
About the other issues, Ok, may be the BA soldiers were there not to wipe out anyone, but the SAS still gunned down almost all the members of East Tyrone'ra Brigade and the Gibraltar three. Also a good number of civilians or unarmed Republican sympathizers fell to Royal Army bullets since Bloody Sunday up to the cease-fires. It's obvious they failed to do the same in S.A., but certainly the cause was not self-restraint. DagosNavy 16:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, Weggie. Finally, you have answered the key question: "The demilitarisation of South Armagh was the aim of both the UK Govt. and the provos", so you have conceded that my statement must be included in the text. I insist, no matter the cause, no matter if it was also the goal of any other group or State, normalization in S.A. was a Republican objective, so I feel free to restore the line to the article. The PSNI doesn’t count as a military force, so its presence doesn’t change the validity of my statement.
Certainly, the other issues are PoV and a matter of discussion. The PSNI (unlike the now defunct RUC) is an entirely civilian new force, open to both communities and also open to a genuine cross-border cooperation. Even members of the Irish Garda can fill its ranks. Its aim is just normal policing for the community, without the strong militarized profile and the political bias that characterized the RUC. The PSNI doesn’t display the “Royal” title anymore, so the nationalist and republicans view of them will be that of a local force rather than a “brit” one. They will be accountable to the local residents trough the monitoring of the political parties, they will not use Army helicopters or watchtowers to control the life of the people in the border. The life will be as normal as in any place of Western Europe. In the other hand, the real criminals (Murphy and his fellows, if you want), will be just criminals, they will now be unable to hide themselves under the cover of a dubious "patriotism". They will cannot claim anymore the status of militants; they will be prosecuted as the mobsters they are.
The fact that the Caraher sniper team was handed over to the RUC and not executed in sight by the SAS was a political gesture, since by 1997 there was a great expectation for another PIRA cease-fire and the effect of another Loughgall would have been potentially disastrous to the Peace Process. The IRA army council was also showing some restraint in NI, waiting for the outcome of the May UK elections to enter the proposed multi-party talks. Had the capture of Caraher and his men took place (for example) in 1992, there is not doubt the sniper squad members would have died. Remember that the Royal Marines shoot dead Caraher’ brother in 1990 just for breaching a checkpoint or something lenient than that, I believe.
I would call this trigger-happy, not restraint. Wether they killed or arrested PIRA members in S.A., they never were able to neutralize the Brigade's activities.
DagosNavy
Ok, take it easy. I will include the statement with the clarification that the strategic goal yourself have already admitted was the aim of the provos and others, was the result of the GFA provisions and in exchange of the PIRA decommissioning, avoiding any reference to words like achievement or retreat. I repeat, I never intended to post nothing more than the fact that the normalisation was a political objective of the Sinn Fein/IRA, since this is an article about the Republican main force in S.A., not about the GFA or about the British Army in NI. I think this modification cannot be seen as PoV in any way. DagosNavy
Image:XmaglenSniper.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 19:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
The sniper information belongs in this article, not tucked out of the way in an article that barely has any incoming links. One Night In Hackney 303 17:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Bishopsgate wasn't a South Armagh operation, it was an England Department operation. The England Department used personnel from South Armagh. You want evidence of the unsourced stuff? In no particular order....
And I could go on and on and on if you really want me to? There's so much stuff in this article that's not supported by sources it's untrue. Once that's gone it quite easily goes in the main Brigade article. One Night In Hackney 303 23:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Strongly Disagree - just read the South Armagh Sniper (1990-1997) article; it's good; a lot of information in it - far too much to be merged. I understand ONIH has some issues with the references? Sarah777 ( talk) 01:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Also disagree. Could do with some improvements but otherwise deserves to be treated as a stand-alone article. GiollaUidir ( talk) 16:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Also Disagree - Culnacréann- (talk) 22:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
No capitals, please, be civil. If I added a header, is because the following Wikipedia guideline (which you ignored by reopening an alredy closed discussion):
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Have I to repeat that the discussion about improving the South Armagh Sniper article should be discussed, as any of the other millions of Wikipedias articles, in its own talk-page?. There is no other issue to adress here than the proposed merge, and we have the opinion of six different users with no agreement in sight, and no comments by new users for a month.-- Darius ( talk) 22:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Your comments after 02/08/2008 and those of 'Republican Jacobite' (no depth analysis in his posting at all) were aimed to the weaken points of the article (about the sniper), not to the reasons for merging, nor to my arguments against it. On the other hand, the article was heavily edited and improved since then.-- Darius ( talk) 23:53, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Trolling refers to deliberate and intentional attempts to disrupt the usability of Wikipedia for its editors, administrators, developers, and other people who work to create content for and help run Wikipedia. Trolling is deliberate violation of the implicit rules of Internet social spaces. It necessarily involves a value judgment made by one user about the value of another's contribution.(...)The archetypal example of trolling is the deliberately inflammatory edit or post — saying something controversial specifically to cause a flame war. Inflammatory edits usually come from users who have a minority or controversial opinion and who sincerely believe that this view is inadequately represented by Wikipedia; trolls, however, will generally not seek consensus but will instead insist on a position without any regard for compromise.(...)
Deliberate misuse of processes is a favourite troll game.
Well, it's over for me. Probably we will talk again when you and others reach consensus to merge, according to Wikipedia rules...10 years from now, I guess. Bye.-- Darius ( talk) 00:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
P.S.: Ah, I almost forget something; if you close this discussion in the future, I will reopen it and revert the changes in the articles, just as you did before.-- Darius ( talk) 22:05, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree Padraig, ONIH has stated the case well and there has not been anything in the way of strong arguments against. Would have added more points only ONIH covered most of them already, as per usual. -- Domer48 ( talk) 01:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with the merge. I made some edits as unregistered in some of the articles about 'Irish Republican Army actions', and most of the actions described there were carried out by an specific PIRA brigade; no sense in merging all of them to the 5 or 4 brigades articles. The SA Sniper is part of the Irish Republican folk and tradition; the article should stand alone. I also agree with the opinion that the article is too long to merge here. IsaacMorrison ( talk) 02:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, Mr. 'Jacobite', you are questioning the South Armagh sniper article on the grounds that the PIRA unit was a 'small group' inside another group. Just browse the account of casualties at the CAIN site, out of 11 soldiers killed during the period 6 were victims of this nasty bunch: 55% of all military fatalities in NIR. At this stage of the Troubles, the usual thing for the provos was to kill out of duty soldiers; the sniper shot full combat-ready squaddies. Your point about numbers are, therefore, arguable, to say the least. The sniper chase was the main concern of the British military between 1992-1997. A little bunch, yes, but its deeds made an overall effect on 'The Troubles' from the security point of view. This is a fact, and facts and History preceded Wikipedia policies. Yes, those 'little rascals' deserve a separate article. Other reason for avoiding the merger is practical. Someone over there wrote that 'is far too much to be merged'. I think he was right, mergings only work for stubs, I think.-- IsaacMorrison ( talk) 18:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
"There are several good reasons to merge a page:
Duplicate - There are two or more pages on exactly the same subject and having the same scope.
Overlap - There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept in the universe. For example, "Flammable" and "Non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on Flammability.
Text - If a page is very short and is unlikely to be expanded within a reasonable amount of time, it often makes sense to merge it with a page on a broader topic. For instance, parents or children of a celebrity who are otherwise unremarkable are generally covered in a section of the article on the celebrity, and can be merged there.
Context - If a short article requires the background material or context from a broader article in order for readers to understand it. For instance, minor characters from works of fiction are generally covered in a "List of characters in <work>", and can be merged there; see also WP:FICT."
Point by point:
1) As long as I know, there is obviously no duplication of subjects-The sniper page subject are not the activities of the IRA in SA since 1968 to 1998.
2) There is not a large overlap; the sniper, as I mentioned before, had a significant impact in the Troubles and goes well beyond the routine activities of the Brigade: The common reader identifies the Sniper at work sign with the IRA, not specifically with the South Armagh Brigade, and some issues -general sniping activities inside the IRA, IRA importation of arms, some links, Bernard McGinn, not properly a South Armagh Brigade rank- overcome the Brigade's context. On the other hand: is the sniper so trivial to match a dictionary entry?.
3) The text is not a very short one, it has been assessed as Start and is almost as large as the article about the Brigade.
4) And for the context, the sniper is already in the category of Provisional IRA actions, so someone can hardly claim that the sniper material is "in the wilderness".
I think there is no ground to merge according to Wikipedia policies. And, I repeat, I feel free to revert any merging if no large consensus is achieved, since Wikipedia establishes that: If there is clear agreement with the proposal by consensus, or if there is silence, proceed with the merger. No clear agreement in sight, no merger.
If the other guy thinks that the Brigade article should be improved, according to his words: Your comments still fail to address the impact on "this" article, which has always been the main bone of contention., then the improving should be perform inside this article, but not at the expense of another.
The trolling suggestion from my part was a reaction to some uncivil attitudes of ONIH, like the use of derogative language and open inflammatory remarks (use of capitals, total bollocks for the edits of another user). I think he is, however, a honest wikipedian, but I will not tolerate any despising comment from anybody.-- Darius ( talk) 16:29, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
There is consensus for merging, well supported by reasoned arguements, suggesting you will revert any change, including a merging performed without the proper consensus is disruption! I suggest you don't go there. -- Domer48 ( talk) 21:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
P.S.:Be carefull! Somebody here is scanning the minds of other people! He knows whether you did read the sources of an article or not!.-- Darius ( talk) 03:18, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I don't think the articles should be merged, though this one should contain a section summarizing the contents of
South Armagh Sniper (1990-1997). And, while I'm here, can I remind everyone that
WP:CIVIL is policy and that editors ignoring it can be blocked? --
ROGER DAVIES
talk 20:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
(deindent). In that case, I'll give you an incomplete list now, in addition to what was stated at the top of the merge discussion. Information is taken from this version IIRC.
"Just because the person assessing it hasn't read the sources..." I do not need to read the sources to assess the article becuase the threshold for inclusion on Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. You could write a 92 kb page on the importance of the letter "e" in the word "the" and as long as you cite second and third party sources it would be permitted to stay. Thats also the reason why the fiction based projects here continue unabated, they deal with aspects of reality that exist only in someone elses imagination, yet the information in such articles can be varfied. Having said that, I will concede that both sides bring up good points. We could merge the article into this one, but given Hackney's failure to incorporate the sourced material on the sniper page here I have to wonder if this discussion is his way of making a WP:POINT. The sniper article itself appears notable is cited, and has achieved a B as noted earlier, but that shouldn't prevent a merger if a good policy established reason can be clearly stated as to why the two should be merged, and from what I see he claims four good reasons. As for consensus: I see 3 disagrees to the merge and two agrees to the merge, thats hardly consenses.
Taking all this in stride, my summary of the above debate is that the sniper article could be maintained as an independent article if better sourcing can be found, but should be integrated into this article because this article is the parent brigade which dealt with the sniper in the first place. Without all the added drama, would all involved parties agree that this is more or less the core of discussion, or have I left something important out? TomStar81 ( Talk) 21:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I would like to hear your opinion about the top photo in the article. It's a fair-use one, if you have any objections, please, left your comments here.-- Darius ( talk) 23:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I think there are some jobs to do to improve the narrative:
1)A brief summary about the Warrenpoint ambush.
2)A brief summary about the sniping activity.
3)A brief summary about the Docklands bombing, an entirely SA Brigade operation.
4)If possible, free images in order to illustrate some points.
DagosNavy 12:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent) It seems to me, and with great respect to everyone here, that it is a little premature to discuss the detail of this article until the SA sniper content is sorted to everyone's satisfaction. And can we all stop the personal stuff? It really doesn't help to move things on ... -- ROGER DAVIES talk 19:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
What I suggest is the following:
For clarity, I don't have strong views on the merger either way. My interest is purely in high quality Wikipedia articles. I also assume that other editors would prefer to channel their efforts and knowledge productively into the nitty-gritty of article improvement, each in their own way, rather than spending time bickering. -- ROGER DAVIES talk 19:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
DagosNavy has become a SPA account, and acts as such. If they continue to add WP:OR they will be reverted as per policy. -- Domer48 ( talk) 12:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
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