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I will move all to X Prefecture for now,
see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Subnational entities/Naming
Tobias Conradi 15:37, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hi Tobias,
Recently you moved all articles about Mongolian aymags from ___ aymag to ___ Prefecture. However, I believe the standard translation of "aymag" used is "province". Both the CIA factbook and Statoids use this translation.
So do you think it's alright if I moved all of the aymag articles to ___ Province? Please let me know about any concerns or objections that you have.
Thanks -- ran ( talk) 17:07, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
But the CIA factbook certainly isn't one person. Also, certain common translations are arrived at for countries and you can't change them: Japan has prefectures, for example, and you can't just call them something else, like provinces, or states. (And I don't mind spending some time redirecting all the articles.. it wouldn't take that long ;) )
Mongolia wasn't a province, btw. It was more of a "territory", controlled by a military governor. The only provinces of the Manchu Empire were those in China proper (if you don't count the aymags of Mongolia, of course ;) )-- ran ( talk) 17:29, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I'll edit it later today (UTC-5) -- ran ( talk) 17:42, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
I think as long as there's consistency within each country then we should be fine. For example, the " commanderies" of ancient China, " districts" of Japan and " counties" of Korea are all translations of the same word: 郡. In Chinese, Japanese and Korean the same term is used to refer to all three. But that doesn't mean we can switch them around in English. -- ran ( talk) 19:52, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
(from User_talk:Tobias Conradi) Hi Tobias, do you want to help me out and fix some of the redirects going to the Mongolian aymag pages? -- ran ( talk) 07:33, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
It's a bit of a pain when the same thing has a few different names depending on which part of history you're talking about. Take a look at county of China (xian) and zhou (political division). Not only do they have several different translations depending on what kind of literature you're reading, they both use the term "prefecture" in a historical context, which is also used in the modern context to refer to another administrative division of China, the prefecture of China. (diqu)
When this happens I guess we'll have to use our discretion. What do you think should be done with the prefectures of Mongolia? Are they actually referred to that way in a historical context? -- ran ( talk) 19:27, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for this clarification.
But what really takes my nerves, that you are not correcting the inconsistency you created. Because Mongolia was a province of China though, it was divided into aimaqs (prefectures of the province of Outer Mongolia). This system was continued with even when independence was gained.
I would like to do it, but I do not know what Mongolia was, beside a special territory. And maybe it can also be clarified whether whole Mongolia or or only Outer Mongolia or both Mongolias were special territorries with adding the chinese words for it.
I really dislike inconsistency because they can cost people lot of time, e.g. me, who moved the aymags to prefectures because of this wrong statement. If it will be there some more time I am going to delete this info completly. Tobias Conradi 01:59, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
... :-) now I can sleep better ;-) You solved it in a good way, not saying anything about status, beside domination. I moved all to Category:Provinces of Mongolia. I wonder when we will move back to local names and transliteration ? I started a template Template:Subnational_entity, I will certainly have a look on chinese entities, because it seems some people really put afford in organizing the series there. BTW the only articles that use singular are "county of china" and not plural like "provinces of someland". Because WP usually puts stuff in singular this seems to be the right way. Tobias Conradi 04:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
from User_talk:Tobias Conradi Tobias Conradi (Talk) 21:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Hey Tobias, I was just wondering why you moved the article of Aymguud of Mongolia to Provinces of Mongolia? The rest of the articles do not cross-reference the use of 'province' - nor is it an overall term. Aymag (singular, or "aymguud" for plural) is the proper terminology and is fully acceptable to use within Wiki rules (see the use of "oblast" with the Administrative divisions of Ukraine. I do not necessarily contest this move, however, I feel that if this is to stay as such you must alter the related articles to reflect the use of 'province' (with proper reference to 'aymug'). Thanks! Rarelibra 20:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Tobias Conradi (Talk) 21:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Why you, RareLibra, are transliterating plural form, but not singular? Do you believe usual wikireader knows mongolian grammar? Do you know mongolian grammar? And then why you are creating new mongolian word "sumuud"? In Mongolian Wiki plural form of "sum" is "Сумд" ("sumd" in transliteration). Even native mongolians when they are writing in English use English grammar instead of Mongolian (no sumuud and aymguud). It is not a good idea to use foreign grammar, to my opinion. Bogomolov.PL 16:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
1. grammar is concrete language part (Mongolian, English, Polish etc)
2. certain language uses only its grammar - in English is not in use Mongolian or Polish suffixes: znamię (birthmark)singular; znamiona (birthmarks)plural. Birthmarkona - it is not correct in English.
3. When instead of provinces we are using aymag and when county we are naming sum - from this time English vocabulary has two mongolian origin words more (loan words, adoptions). Adoptions are in use in English text using English grammar (and vice versa: in Polish language are English origin adoptions declined using Polish grammar rules - komputer (computer)singular; komputery (computers)plural).
4. Very useful is in encyclopaedia (adoption!) in parentheses (adoption!) note Mongolian plural form. But (under tradition) foreign words are adopted in singular form: pogrom (sing.)from Russian, not pogromy (plural).
5. If we are not speakers of Mongolian we are not competent to decide what Mongolian grammar form is correct. But this polymophism we need only to note in parentheses.
Bogomolov.PL 10:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, mission complete. 16-color PNG from vectorized map (MicroStation), transformed from cone projection(source) to Mercator with true scales at 48 parallel and true northigs along meridians. All rasters have same scale (if sb wants - can collect and mosaic, mb it will be helpful add BL crosses?). General sums map is of course in two versions - every sum painted with different color (6 colors, no adjacent sums filled with the same color), blue lakes and black borders - and b/w outline map. No offence, but sumuud and aymguud are not acceptable in any language exept Mongolian. Why you pretend that Wikipedia article naming question has no sens? Tylko staram się panu(czy pani) wyperswadować istotność tej kwestii, bo pan(pani) tworzy w Wikipedii artykuły z niewyłumaczalnymi z każdego punktu widzenia nazwami, uporczywie używa tych neologizmów w tekstach Wikipedii. To nie wydaje się kwestją czysto lingwistyczną, to się tyczy rzeczy bardzo a to bardzo istotnych - zasad tworzenia Wikipedii. Gdy wytaczam argumenty, moim zdaniem sensowne, co słyszę od autora(autorki) aymguudów - odczep się pan, nie zawracaj głowy. Niestety, używanie w języku angelskim angelskiej gramatyki uważam za słuszne. Czy argumentów z pana(pani) strony zabrakło? Nie wierzę w to, bo nie wierzę by pan (pani) nie rozważał podejmowanych decyzji Bogomolov.PL 07:19, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Latebird - Bogomolov wrote in Polish because he tried to hide his words. Maybe he didn't notice that I speak Polish. He is saying that he cannot argue about topics/aspects with me because I do not know the rules for creating wikipedia. He also states that I do not know the names, and that my arguments do not make sense, and he is ordering me not to do this.
Bogomolov - now I am going to tell you two things. First, if you claim expertise in the area of Mongolian maps and names, SHARE IT to improve the article (with the proper references and sources, of course). Second, do not simply offer up criticisms or insults ... because no matter what language you attempt to do so, you are still in violation of wikipedia rules, and you can very quickly be banned because of this. Do you understand what I am saying? If you wish to converse in your language, by all means I can read it and translate it. But if you turn to insults and such, you are not doing the article or wikipedia any good. Just so you know, Bogomolov, that we have a little history with this article here. If your input is simply from looking at a couple of maps and seeing names, that is one thing. If you come at us with proper sources of names (and boundaries), etc. looking to help correct things, that is another thing. If you notice how Latebird approached the topic, he notified me of errors and offered up possibilities to work at correcting the errors (and improving the article). There were not insults or words exchanged between us, other than words to search for finding the corrections for the article. You state that you have created new maps with the correct borders/boundaries for the Sumuud... do you wish to post those maps to update the maps for the Sumuud? If so, let's get it done and improve the article. If you want me to do the updates with the maps I already have in place, then let me know where we can exchange the updated information you have. If you are merely attempting to criticize the name of Aymguud and Sumuud... what is your suggestion for such names, for the proper transliteration to English? Don't get hung up with statements about how 'only Mongolians' can offer input. This is English Wikipedia, and there are well-knowledged individuals here that can offer up solutions on various topics. So if we follow along the same lines of such logic, you yourself (being native Polish) cannot offer any input on the topic, either. So this is what I mean by "not making sense". Start offering up solutions and sources. Thanks! Rarelibra 15:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
In personal data Rarelibra clame one of his languages Polish. For me more easy to explain my opinion not in English, but in Polish, sorry. I didn't want to hide, but better explain my opinion. Dear Latebird, I will try to translate in my poor English what I'd said in Polish: "I am only trying to convince you of this question importance, because you are creating in Wikipedia articles from every point of view with nontraslateable names, consistently use this neologisms in Wikipedia texts. This is not only lingustic question, but relates very important things - principles of Wikipedia creation. When I reason my opinion with arguments, in my judgment, sensible, what I here wrom aymguud author side - disengage me, stop importune me. Don't you have arguments? I am sure you have, because I am sure you are making decisions only after serious reflection." End of translation. Feel the difference. My intention is to achieve consensus, what means I'm ready for my opinion changing if strong arguments will come from Rarelibra side. That is why I'm not changing aymguud and sumuud into aymags and sums - this act will be against Wikipedia consensus principles, isn't it? I am not any Wikihooligan, I just want to here other side arguments, but... You whant ban me? You don't like my opinion - discuss with me, this is discussion page. This is my understanding of Wiki principles. Imagine - I'm changing aymguud into aymags, but Rarelibra switch them back and so on. Only when we will be able to find consensus, and only if this decision will differ from aymguud/sumuud changes in Wiki are possible. Until this moment everything stays in present form.
About "only Mongolians". As you remember, I noted that in Mongolian Wiki sums are named sumd, not sumuud. I never say - I know truth, because only my opinion is true. I'm putting questions only. If several plural forms are acceptable - OK. But not me, not you will decide what form is correct in Mongolian language. Here, in English Wiki we can leave this problem (mb for Mongolians it is not any problem?) in parenthesis. I think it is much better use wery short and well known English suffix for plurals, but not Mongolian (not well known for Nonmongolians).
About "somon". Somon is singular form in Russian.
About SVG maps in MicroStation. I don't know this conversion in MS, but mb it will be in new XM version? If sb knows how to create SVG from DGN - help us.
Hövsgöl aymag map - only Chandmani-Öndör (Чандмань-Өндөр) transliteration had lost "ь" (transliterated officially "ǐ", but on Rarelibra and my maps "i"). My maps is possible have same type errors. I just put files into Wiki Mongolia_Arhangay_2005_sum.png etc for all aymags Bogomolov.PL 10:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
:-)
. I'd always support (and have supported) "correct entity name" in proper names such as
Mumbai/
Bombay,
Gdańsk/
Danzig,
Jaromír Jágr/
Jaromir Jagr, but applying it to terms which have proper English translation/equivalent seems like overdoing it. I'm talking about benefit to the reader: when I see "Arhangay Province" or "Whatever district" I'd get a fairly good idea what's that, but not when I see something utterly unfamiliar such as "Arhangay aymag" or "sum". Plus, there is an apparent problem with plurals and grammar. If I wrote the guideline about subnational entities, it would read "use the English form which is used by the country government in English texts". I know that's the case with e.g.
Voivodeships in Poland, and I assume it's also the case with Russian Oblasts, to name a few. Browse a bit through subcats of
Category:Subdivisions_by_country to see for yourself.
Duja
► 09:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)Rarelibra, I think you're the only native english speaker here, so maybe you need to afford some patience with potential misunderstandings. Let's just all assume good faith and not jump to conclusions too quickly. Btw: Since we actually have two seperate topics here, I'll create two new subtitles to make the discussion easier to follow. -- Latebird 16:06, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the relevant guidelines don't say anything about foreign language plurals, so they were probably not meant to happen. In any case, and after all the weird variations we had in the recent past (partly due to my fault), I guess the least confusing option should be considered.
Does anyone have arguments against using the english forms Aymag/Aymags and Sum/Sums? If not, then I suggest we use those. -- Latebird 16:11, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Х - h; У - u; й,ы - y; Ө - Ö; Ү - Ü; Э - e; Е - ye; Я - ya; ж - j; ь - ǐ; и - i; ч - ch; л - l; м - m; н - n; п - p; р - r; с - s; ц - ts; Б - b; В - v; г - g; д - d; ё - yo; з - z; к - k; т - t; ш - sh.
Ok, so at least we three agree on using english plural forms. Let's wait a few days to see if there are any other voices, and then change all the names accordingly.
I'm starting a new subheading for the transliteration issue. -- Latebird 11:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
If at all possible, I would strongly prefer SVG maps, even if it takes a few days longer to figure out the best way of creating them. Maybe one of you will find a tool here that works with what you already have available.
Bogomolov has pointed me to a sample of what he created: Image:Mongolia_Arhangay_2005_sum.png. I would like to continue that discussion here, so that we may get more diverse input. As far as I can tell, the result is correct, at least the names all correspond to the lists that I have. As to the spelling, in [4], "Ögiy nuur" and "Ih tamir" are written as two words each, which may or may not be better. Then there's a chance that a future WP naming convention for Mongolian will define "Х" as "kh" (current practise varies randomly between "h" and "kh"), but that shouldn't be a difficult change if/once it happens.
Graphically, I'd prefer softer colors (maybe except for the lakes), as recommended by Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Maps. The strong colors can make the text hard to read. Would it be hard to remove the sum boundaries and settlement locations in the surrounding aymags? They make the whole thing look a bit nervous. The boundaries between surrounding aymags (and national boundaries, where relevant) should stay, though. Maybe it would even be useful to label the neighbour aymags, as Yaan has done in his attempt. I think it is ok to leave the country map insert away. After all, we already have maps that show where each aymag is located, and those are included in the respective articles as well. -- Latebird 16:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
SVG is a vector format. If we go this way, then you don't want to create PNGs first. Any intermediate formats should be vector based as well (eg. DXF). -- Latebird 17:52, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
You don't want to convert from one vector format (MapInfo/MicroStation) to another vector format (SVG) by going through an intermediate raster format (PNG). That would destroy all the advantages of using a "full blown mapping system" in the first place, as far as the quality of the result is concerned. -- Latebird 19:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Any decent mapping software can export a variety of vector formats. Now we just need to find one where we then have a (fully vector based) path to SVG. There are probably short and expensive paths, and longer ones with free tools. Maybe we should ask the mapping portal or the folks on Commons if anyone has used this specific combination before. -- Latebird 20:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
The new colors look nice. If we create SVG maps, then the resolution is dynamic at constant (small) file size. It seems that Rarelibra has found a way to create SVG maps from MapInfo. Maybe you can cooperate for him to process your data this way? About that Govi-Altay map: The territory around the capital has a very strange shape. Is that actually what the city administrates, or in which aymag is the capital located geographically? -- Latebird 17:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
About sum division. Aymag is divided into aymag center and sums. Sum and sum center obligatory have the same name. Very frequently sum center is single settlement in it and rest of population is nomadic only registrated in sum center. Besides sum center in sum are possible bag settlements, but a lot of them are seasonally populated (if exist). There are settlements wich are not bags. Usually only sum center has post-office, school, hospital, set of shops, temple. Sum is not only administrative division, but the way to manage pastures - main economy resource. Bags are sum pastures subdivisions. Sum population is officially rural. Urban population in Mongolia is: Ulaanbaatar municipality population and all aymag centers. So, to my opinion, if aymag center is on the territory of sum with its own sum center, this aymag center have to be excluded from surrounding sum. Uvs, Govi-Altay, Orhon, Dundgovi, Dornogovi and Govi-Sumber aymag centers are sum centers too. What with them? Does surronding sum have own administration located in the city, or it has no own administration, but it is rural part of city administrated territory? Bogomolov.PL 08:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I've never heard of a sum center having a different name than the sum.
That map of Arhangay looks very strange. In the Tsetserleg sum, they have two seperate settlements called Hujirt. In the Hairhan sum, there is a place named Hairhan, but the red dot is placed elsewhere. The Tsahir sum has no red dot at all, but a small dot at the border to Tariat is given two names (one of them Tsahir). The name Jargalant appears at least three times, two of them purportedly a sum center, but not in the Jargalant sum... I don't think I would trust this particular map as a reliable source, even if some local webmaster may have thought it was the best he could find.
Bogomolov, have you received a copy of the map that de:Benutzer:Hangarid has? It seems to include the most current version of the official names, which we could use to decide about which names are one or two words. -- Latebird 10:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
re. double and triple names, I think this might be a common problem when dealing with Mongolian maps. I think Hövsgöl has 3-4 mountains called Ih Uuls, for example. Unless someone can come up with a definite source, I'd just ignore the sum center's names, since they are pretty irrelevant anyway. I think Hövsgöl's center Mörön is a sum, too, albeit a rather small one. Or maybe it was one some years ago. Yaan 217.188.99.115 11:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
With Tsagaan-Uul and Tsagaannuur it is my sin - I just fixed this error (Tsagaan - "White" with double "a" always). Thank you, Yaan 85.179.30.25!
Latebird - I'm finising maps correction (pastel colors, removing neighbouring aymags sum boundaries and centers). I'm looking for the ways to converte to SVG. May be Rarelibra will be successful, I sent him MapInfo tabs with sum bounaries and lakes - this makes possible to create outline map for all Mongolia.
Yaan- Mörön can not be any sum: sums are always rural units, but aymag centers are always urban (this is Statistic Office position). Sum is usually former socialist agriculture enterprise headquarters and still is grazeland management unit. And does aymag center fulfil this characteristic attributes? I'd mentioned in discussion that , to my opinion, aymags need to be excluded from surrounding sums. But it doesn not mean aymags will become sum this way. Hatgal - good question. In Авто замын атлас 2005 it is shown by the sum sign, but on adminisrative map it is noted like "other settlement". Usually this sign is used for former sum centers (just lost sum status). Anyway if Hatgal is sum - i have no borders for it. It is very possible this town has post office, grocery stores, gas station etc. I was in 2005 and 2006 in Bayantooroy willage in North Gobi oazis - all infrastructure was present, even house with banner (usually - "сумын дарга" office). But on administrative map - nothing. In Mongolian Wiki this willage name is in brackets, first is the name Цогт (80 km from Gobi desert to the Mongol-Altay tops), like it is on administrative map. Bogomolov.PL 09:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Latebird - I didn't received any maps, but if you know how (verification is good idea) - tell me.
Yaan - a lot of sum centers are noted on maps in wrong places. Sum center can move - it happens (even aymag centers moved). But very possible are map mistakes/distorsions. Guchin-Us sum center (Övörhangay aymag) shift is 15 km. Bogomolov.PL 09:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Bogomolov, I've asked Hangarid to contact you about his map. I hope there won't be too many changes necessary because of it...
Unless I've miscounted, I think for the moment it's save to assume that Mörön and Hatgal are independent tosgons and not part of a sum. Maybe we can have a notice on the talk page of the article (and/or the map image) as a disclaimer until we're really 200% certain. We may also have to double check all other aymags for extra tosgons besides the aymag centers.
Btw: The numer of sum in the table in each article may or may not be correct in some cases. I've used the best information I had available to create them, and sometimes there were conflicts between different sources. -- Latebird 19:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... most sources seem to think that an aymag center is never a sum (or part of a sum). Where can we get an official word on this? -- Latebird 20:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, a lot of the publicly available information is not up to date. This may include plates on buildings and "official" web sites. Addresses probably don't say much about the administrative status of a place either. The problem is that most Mongolians couldn't care less about such administrative trivia, so you'll get many incorrect answers if you ask people... But this is the first time I hear that the Aymag center isn't supposed to be an extra entity, so I'm inclined to go with "conventional wisdom" and list it as a tosgon. If we should happen to get formal confirmation later that Mörön is an exception, we can still change it. -- Latebird 09:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Sum office presence in aymag centre does not mean this city is obligatory sum part. Can be two possible situations: 1. Like Praha (Prague) is the capital, but not the part of Středočeský kraj. 2. City administration is common for both city and surrounding sum. What I don't know: are city administrations separate from aymag administrations? About tosgon. In 1981 was 25 "urban type settlements" (back translation from Russian) and 20 cities in Mongolia. "Urban village" may be better definition, because official statistics add tosgon population to urban one. In Stat.Yearbook 2001 is footnote: "Data from Population and Housing census, 2000. Some settlements, which were clasified as villages in the census are not clasified as them according to the 2000 Resident Population Data". Is it possible tosgon definition is only for statistic use? Bogomolov.PL 13:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
When I get home next week, I'll do some in-depth research in the two relevant books I have. Unfortunately, they only cover Hövsgöl, so they cannot give anything but hints about the situation in other aimags. Yaan 14:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
According to M.Nyamaa's (the inlet also mentions the aimag's sasag darga as "redacteur") Hövsgöl aimgiin lavlah tol, UB 2001, p.97f, Mörön became the sum center of a sum called Büren in 1931, in 1933 it (additionally) became the center of Hövsgöl aimag, in 1956 its status changed from Büren sum's 8th bag to an independent unit called Mörön horoo, in 1961 it became Mörön hot. In 1994 it became Mörön sum. The area is about 102 sqkm.
I also had a look into a brochure called "Mörön hot", edited probably 2001 in Mörön. From what I understood, they basically say the same (incl. that Mörön has been a sum since 1994), and they have pictures of each the aimag's and sum's hural and administrative heads (four persons in total). It's not really a surprise since the ultimate sources are probably the same.
As for Hatgal, according to the first source on p.159 it has been independent ever since the aimag's capital was moved to Mörön in 1933 (ene üyees hatgal biye daasan hev shinjid orj högjih bolson yum). in 1975, the status was changed from Hatgal horoo to either hot or 'oron nutgiin har'yaalaltai hot' (not sure if the second might be an official designation). In 1994 its status was changed to tosgon. On p.7, the book, not really helpfully, states that Hövsgöl has 23 sum, one tosgon and 121 bag. Yaan 14:12, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The english language Wikipedia has yet to decide about a standard transliteration system for Mongolian. I've tried to start a discussion about it some time ago, but didn't have the energy to actually get anything decided then. It is probably a good idea to get this discussion started again, but not here. To create an accepted standard for Wikipedia, it must be discussed on Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Cyrillic).
What I proposed back then was very similar to what you call "Mongolian map transliteration system" (where exactly is that defined?). The only differences were in the "ь" (left away) and the "Х" (kh instead of h). I think this is close enough that we'll find a mutually agreeable solution. Are we ready to convince the rest of the community about it? -- Latebird 11:13, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The requirements of Wikipedia ask for a phonetic transliteration system, that will help the average english speaker to pronounce the names as correctly as possible without help. Back-transliteration is only of concern in articles about linguistic topics, but not here. After all, we'll give the original mongolian spelling as well, either in a table or in the introduction of each article. But this discussion should really move to the naminc convention pages, so that other interested editors will see it as well. -- Latebird 17:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the established english (and german) name for Говь is "Gobi" (compare Gobi Desert). This is not a transliteration of the current mongolian spelling, but a historically grown english name (similar to eg. " Ulan Bator"). We only need an accurate transliteration where no such english name is common. We have done it this way in the german language WP as well, eg de:Dorno-Gobi-Aimag. I think in all other cases, omitting the ь is unproblematic.
The english term "transliteration" means both literal transliteration and what is usually known as transcription in other languages (eg. German). I was originally confused about this as well, as you'll find documented on the naming conventions talk page. So yes, in your terms, what we need here is a transcription system. Literal transliteration would probably confuse most readers (we write for "normal" people, not for linguists). We don't need to decide about this question now, as it is the established WP naming convention standard. We just need to chose the most suitable transcription system for Mongolian. -- Latebird 10:44, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
The absence of a transliteration convention forces us to define one! I'll update my old proposal at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Cyrillic) with the information from this discussion here, and see that we get a decision soon. Once the convention is defined, we don't need to worry about variations or changes anymore. -- Latebird 11:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I have submitted a formal proposal for the naming conventions. Let's hope that this will result in clearly defined rules soon, so that we won't have to take random choices anymore. Any further comments should be posted there now. -- Latebird 12:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I have also read up a bit on Hövsgöl aimag's history. According to the source mentioned above, the Sain Noyon Han and Zasagt Han aimags and their hoshuus were both renamed in 1923 (I suppose the same applied to the other two old aimags), Sain Noyon Han aimag was renamed into into Tsetserleg mandal uulyn aimag and Zasagt Han aimag into Hantaishir uulyn aimag. Additionally, border areas were (gradually?) incorporated into that structure from then on - like the Drahad area in Hövsgöl, but the same might be true for Hovd and Dariganga. Hövsgöl aimag was founded in 1931, it gave some areas to Zavhan and Bulgan aimags in 1938 (which implies that these aimags existed at least from that time on) and got some areas from Arhangai in 1942.
For the history of Arhangai, compare http://www.silk-road.com/excavation/arkhangai/documents/Arkhangaiaimag.pdf . Yaan 14:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately about other aimags (and only about three of them), I have nothing more than picture books. The ones about Hovd and Uvs don't contain any encyclopedic information. The one about Dornogov' says that the aimag was founded in 1931 from the Sain Noyon Khan aimag (or another one of the four old aimags, anyway under the original name), and that it has 14 sums. The included map showed 13 sums if you include the one that Sainshand is in. But then, the english version of the text also says the aimag is as big as Benelux + Sweden. The mongolian version was closer (Benelux + Switzerland), but I still don't think it's a useful source. The pics are nice, though. Yaan 14:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Something more useful, and fun: http://mongol.tufs.ac.jp/landmaps/ has some scans of old Mongolian maps. One map ( http://mongol.tufs.ac.jp/landmaps/16S.html or http://mongol.tufs.ac.jp/landmaps/16.html for a bigger picture) seems to depict aimag boundaries and names. Unfortunately, there is a scale, but no date given in the legend, and the author of the site doesn't seem to be entirely sure either. Plus it's written in classical mongolian. But if you like old mongolian maps, check the site out. Yaan 12:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The result of the move request was page moved. @ harej 17:22, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Aimags of Mongolia →
Provinces of Mongolia —
WP:Use English.
Chanheigeorge (
talk) 06:25, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Those are the most official and important sources, barring official translations by the Mongolia government. Chanheigeorge ( talk) 04:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
I did some research in the page history. WP:UE and consistency was achieved by Tobias Conradi and Ran. It took them 4 days. And they left the article with a concise introduction. From March 2005 until May 2006 English language with its grammar and orthography was used. In May 2006 this calm and consistent period ended. They only missed to put translation references that they cited on the talk page into the article itself. See whole story:
Please see Category:Country subdivisions by continent to find out that English WP does generally use English native words for article titles, and uses the transliterated terms mostly only as anotation. That the term "aimag/aymag" is used in some specialized books does not mean it is to be used overall. TrueColour ( talk) 18:02, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Comment: per the search results above, it seems that aimag is used more commonly, though. Yaan ( talk) 11:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Weak oppose: I have to qualify my vote by saying that I don't know much about Mongolia. But the only Anglo-American author whose name I can remember as an authority on Mongolia - Owen Lattimore - seemed to have used "Aimak" (see http://books.google.com/books?q=lattimore+aimak&btnG=Search+Books for citations), so by keeping "Aimak" (or "Aimag", which, I suppose, is an alternative, more modern, transliteration), we will be in a good company. (Aimag and aimak both appear abundantly on Google Books, but the latter seems to be more common in older, or East European, sources). A propos of nothing, I think that the Mongolian word "aimag" has also been used in other languages (e.g. Russian, German) to refer to Mongolia's administrative units, so English is not unique in using it. Vmenkov ( talk) 13:27, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Comment: The essence of WP:NAME seems to be "Article names should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources." Since one user insists books are not good enough as sources, here is a more complete search. If we restrict ourself to aimag names with little variation in transscription, we get
i.e. using some variant of "aimag" seems consistently more common than using "province". Yaan ( talk) 10:47, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
It is also "Aymak" spelling, not so frequent, but is.
Bogomolov.PL ( talk) 11:26, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
User TrueColour keeps adding a statement to the article about what the "usual translation" of the term Aimag is in his opinion. He lists the World Factbook and Statoids as examples, purporting them to be "references". But that's not how references work. A valid reference would be a publication making the same statement as the article, specifically "Aimag is usually translated as Province". Taking two examples and claiming them to be references is Original Synthesis of those sources and not acceptable in Wikipedia. It seems as if TrueColor is trying to "create facts" to support his position in the rename request above. I don't think that is quite the correct way to go about it. -- Latebird ( talk) 17:47, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
ISO 3166-2 Codes for the representation of names of countries and their subdivisions – Part 2: Country subdivision code provides codes for the "names" of country subdivisions and the "names" of the country subdivisions itself. Please read the standard. But it does not matter what the purpose of it is. It is one source and each source using a specific name is an example for the usage of that name. Like in the section above where editors dived into google counting, sources are counted, and sources are examples. That "The ISO idea was not to teach the world the correct English names" is irrelevant. Every text using correct English IS teaching correct English, even without the specific idea of doing so.
@Latebird and the personal attack: ("I also don't quite understand why an editor insists on entirely ignoring the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Mongolian)"), please respect WP:NPA. Furthermore WP:MON in the form it is in since September 2008, supports the use of the term "province" more then the use of "aimag". Please calm down with your prose. TrueColour ( talk) 21:58, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
This edit asks for the sources, but what can I do? I have this official administrative divisions map in my hands, the name of this map was added in the reference. What extra information has to be added? Bogomolov.PL ( talk) 17:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
This is not directly related to the current naming dispute, but if we mention that aimag is sometimes translated into English as province, should we also mention that the common translation of province (as in Hebei province) into Mongolian is not aimag, but muj? Yaan ( talk) 17:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
The 2006 statistical yearbook on p.62 says that "Mongol Ulsyn nutag devser zasag zahirgaany huv'd 21 aimag, niislel [...] huvaagdana". So my impression is that this type of subdivision is called "niislel", not "hot". Of course in colloquial speech UB is both (even kind of synonymous with both!), I just think that since this article is about Mongolia's administrative structure, we should either use the most official term (plus translation) or no term at all. Yaan ( talk) 18:55, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Ayimag as tribe is a fundamental misreading of the term. See Christopher P. Atwood's article "The Administrative Origins of Mongolia's "Tribal" Vocabulary" Eurasia: Statun Et Legum 1(4):7-45:
"ayimag is, on its own, never used as a classifier word for tribal names in any Middle Mongolian text. Not a single Middle Mongolian text pairs ayimag alone with any names tribal or ethnic unit. Instead, extant Middle Mongolian texts use ayimags only in the abstract, to describe units or divisions within a single category: all the ayimags of soldiers, and so on. To refer to "such and such" ayimag~aimag - the Tatar aimag, the Khereid aimag and so on - is common usage in modern Mongolian, but has no foundation in Middle Mongolian. This David Sneath's revisionist position is indeed borne out by the philological data: the administrative meaning of aimag~ayimag is indeed prior to its "tribal" meaning, which must have come into use some time after 1368" (16-17).
I'm deleting the reference to tribe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:18E8:2:28B8:D04E:4D41:84DC:F12 ( talk) 20:52, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
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I will move all to X Prefecture for now,
see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Subnational entities/Naming
Tobias Conradi 15:37, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hi Tobias,
Recently you moved all articles about Mongolian aymags from ___ aymag to ___ Prefecture. However, I believe the standard translation of "aymag" used is "province". Both the CIA factbook and Statoids use this translation.
So do you think it's alright if I moved all of the aymag articles to ___ Province? Please let me know about any concerns or objections that you have.
Thanks -- ran ( talk) 17:07, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
But the CIA factbook certainly isn't one person. Also, certain common translations are arrived at for countries and you can't change them: Japan has prefectures, for example, and you can't just call them something else, like provinces, or states. (And I don't mind spending some time redirecting all the articles.. it wouldn't take that long ;) )
Mongolia wasn't a province, btw. It was more of a "territory", controlled by a military governor. The only provinces of the Manchu Empire were those in China proper (if you don't count the aymags of Mongolia, of course ;) )-- ran ( talk) 17:29, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I'll edit it later today (UTC-5) -- ran ( talk) 17:42, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
I think as long as there's consistency within each country then we should be fine. For example, the " commanderies" of ancient China, " districts" of Japan and " counties" of Korea are all translations of the same word: 郡. In Chinese, Japanese and Korean the same term is used to refer to all three. But that doesn't mean we can switch them around in English. -- ran ( talk) 19:52, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)
(from User_talk:Tobias Conradi) Hi Tobias, do you want to help me out and fix some of the redirects going to the Mongolian aymag pages? -- ran ( talk) 07:33, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
It's a bit of a pain when the same thing has a few different names depending on which part of history you're talking about. Take a look at county of China (xian) and zhou (political division). Not only do they have several different translations depending on what kind of literature you're reading, they both use the term "prefecture" in a historical context, which is also used in the modern context to refer to another administrative division of China, the prefecture of China. (diqu)
When this happens I guess we'll have to use our discretion. What do you think should be done with the prefectures of Mongolia? Are they actually referred to that way in a historical context? -- ran ( talk) 19:27, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for this clarification.
But what really takes my nerves, that you are not correcting the inconsistency you created. Because Mongolia was a province of China though, it was divided into aimaqs (prefectures of the province of Outer Mongolia). This system was continued with even when independence was gained.
I would like to do it, but I do not know what Mongolia was, beside a special territory. And maybe it can also be clarified whether whole Mongolia or or only Outer Mongolia or both Mongolias were special territorries with adding the chinese words for it.
I really dislike inconsistency because they can cost people lot of time, e.g. me, who moved the aymags to prefectures because of this wrong statement. If it will be there some more time I am going to delete this info completly. Tobias Conradi 01:59, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
... :-) now I can sleep better ;-) You solved it in a good way, not saying anything about status, beside domination. I moved all to Category:Provinces of Mongolia. I wonder when we will move back to local names and transliteration ? I started a template Template:Subnational_entity, I will certainly have a look on chinese entities, because it seems some people really put afford in organizing the series there. BTW the only articles that use singular are "county of china" and not plural like "provinces of someland". Because WP usually puts stuff in singular this seems to be the right way. Tobias Conradi 04:33, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
from User_talk:Tobias Conradi Tobias Conradi (Talk) 21:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Hey Tobias, I was just wondering why you moved the article of Aymguud of Mongolia to Provinces of Mongolia? The rest of the articles do not cross-reference the use of 'province' - nor is it an overall term. Aymag (singular, or "aymguud" for plural) is the proper terminology and is fully acceptable to use within Wiki rules (see the use of "oblast" with the Administrative divisions of Ukraine. I do not necessarily contest this move, however, I feel that if this is to stay as such you must alter the related articles to reflect the use of 'province' (with proper reference to 'aymug'). Thanks! Rarelibra 20:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Tobias Conradi (Talk) 21:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Why you, RareLibra, are transliterating plural form, but not singular? Do you believe usual wikireader knows mongolian grammar? Do you know mongolian grammar? And then why you are creating new mongolian word "sumuud"? In Mongolian Wiki plural form of "sum" is "Сумд" ("sumd" in transliteration). Even native mongolians when they are writing in English use English grammar instead of Mongolian (no sumuud and aymguud). It is not a good idea to use foreign grammar, to my opinion. Bogomolov.PL 16:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
1. grammar is concrete language part (Mongolian, English, Polish etc)
2. certain language uses only its grammar - in English is not in use Mongolian or Polish suffixes: znamię (birthmark)singular; znamiona (birthmarks)plural. Birthmarkona - it is not correct in English.
3. When instead of provinces we are using aymag and when county we are naming sum - from this time English vocabulary has two mongolian origin words more (loan words, adoptions). Adoptions are in use in English text using English grammar (and vice versa: in Polish language are English origin adoptions declined using Polish grammar rules - komputer (computer)singular; komputery (computers)plural).
4. Very useful is in encyclopaedia (adoption!) in parentheses (adoption!) note Mongolian plural form. But (under tradition) foreign words are adopted in singular form: pogrom (sing.)from Russian, not pogromy (plural).
5. If we are not speakers of Mongolian we are not competent to decide what Mongolian grammar form is correct. But this polymophism we need only to note in parentheses.
Bogomolov.PL 10:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, mission complete. 16-color PNG from vectorized map (MicroStation), transformed from cone projection(source) to Mercator with true scales at 48 parallel and true northigs along meridians. All rasters have same scale (if sb wants - can collect and mosaic, mb it will be helpful add BL crosses?). General sums map is of course in two versions - every sum painted with different color (6 colors, no adjacent sums filled with the same color), blue lakes and black borders - and b/w outline map. No offence, but sumuud and aymguud are not acceptable in any language exept Mongolian. Why you pretend that Wikipedia article naming question has no sens? Tylko staram się panu(czy pani) wyperswadować istotność tej kwestii, bo pan(pani) tworzy w Wikipedii artykuły z niewyłumaczalnymi z każdego punktu widzenia nazwami, uporczywie używa tych neologizmów w tekstach Wikipedii. To nie wydaje się kwestją czysto lingwistyczną, to się tyczy rzeczy bardzo a to bardzo istotnych - zasad tworzenia Wikipedii. Gdy wytaczam argumenty, moim zdaniem sensowne, co słyszę od autora(autorki) aymguudów - odczep się pan, nie zawracaj głowy. Niestety, używanie w języku angelskim angelskiej gramatyki uważam za słuszne. Czy argumentów z pana(pani) strony zabrakło? Nie wierzę w to, bo nie wierzę by pan (pani) nie rozważał podejmowanych decyzji Bogomolov.PL 07:19, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Latebird - Bogomolov wrote in Polish because he tried to hide his words. Maybe he didn't notice that I speak Polish. He is saying that he cannot argue about topics/aspects with me because I do not know the rules for creating wikipedia. He also states that I do not know the names, and that my arguments do not make sense, and he is ordering me not to do this.
Bogomolov - now I am going to tell you two things. First, if you claim expertise in the area of Mongolian maps and names, SHARE IT to improve the article (with the proper references and sources, of course). Second, do not simply offer up criticisms or insults ... because no matter what language you attempt to do so, you are still in violation of wikipedia rules, and you can very quickly be banned because of this. Do you understand what I am saying? If you wish to converse in your language, by all means I can read it and translate it. But if you turn to insults and such, you are not doing the article or wikipedia any good. Just so you know, Bogomolov, that we have a little history with this article here. If your input is simply from looking at a couple of maps and seeing names, that is one thing. If you come at us with proper sources of names (and boundaries), etc. looking to help correct things, that is another thing. If you notice how Latebird approached the topic, he notified me of errors and offered up possibilities to work at correcting the errors (and improving the article). There were not insults or words exchanged between us, other than words to search for finding the corrections for the article. You state that you have created new maps with the correct borders/boundaries for the Sumuud... do you wish to post those maps to update the maps for the Sumuud? If so, let's get it done and improve the article. If you want me to do the updates with the maps I already have in place, then let me know where we can exchange the updated information you have. If you are merely attempting to criticize the name of Aymguud and Sumuud... what is your suggestion for such names, for the proper transliteration to English? Don't get hung up with statements about how 'only Mongolians' can offer input. This is English Wikipedia, and there are well-knowledged individuals here that can offer up solutions on various topics. So if we follow along the same lines of such logic, you yourself (being native Polish) cannot offer any input on the topic, either. So this is what I mean by "not making sense". Start offering up solutions and sources. Thanks! Rarelibra 15:00, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
In personal data Rarelibra clame one of his languages Polish. For me more easy to explain my opinion not in English, but in Polish, sorry. I didn't want to hide, but better explain my opinion. Dear Latebird, I will try to translate in my poor English what I'd said in Polish: "I am only trying to convince you of this question importance, because you are creating in Wikipedia articles from every point of view with nontraslateable names, consistently use this neologisms in Wikipedia texts. This is not only lingustic question, but relates very important things - principles of Wikipedia creation. When I reason my opinion with arguments, in my judgment, sensible, what I here wrom aymguud author side - disengage me, stop importune me. Don't you have arguments? I am sure you have, because I am sure you are making decisions only after serious reflection." End of translation. Feel the difference. My intention is to achieve consensus, what means I'm ready for my opinion changing if strong arguments will come from Rarelibra side. That is why I'm not changing aymguud and sumuud into aymags and sums - this act will be against Wikipedia consensus principles, isn't it? I am not any Wikihooligan, I just want to here other side arguments, but... You whant ban me? You don't like my opinion - discuss with me, this is discussion page. This is my understanding of Wiki principles. Imagine - I'm changing aymguud into aymags, but Rarelibra switch them back and so on. Only when we will be able to find consensus, and only if this decision will differ from aymguud/sumuud changes in Wiki are possible. Until this moment everything stays in present form.
About "only Mongolians". As you remember, I noted that in Mongolian Wiki sums are named sumd, not sumuud. I never say - I know truth, because only my opinion is true. I'm putting questions only. If several plural forms are acceptable - OK. But not me, not you will decide what form is correct in Mongolian language. Here, in English Wiki we can leave this problem (mb for Mongolians it is not any problem?) in parenthesis. I think it is much better use wery short and well known English suffix for plurals, but not Mongolian (not well known for Nonmongolians).
About "somon". Somon is singular form in Russian.
About SVG maps in MicroStation. I don't know this conversion in MS, but mb it will be in new XM version? If sb knows how to create SVG from DGN - help us.
Hövsgöl aymag map - only Chandmani-Öndör (Чандмань-Өндөр) transliteration had lost "ь" (transliterated officially "ǐ", but on Rarelibra and my maps "i"). My maps is possible have same type errors. I just put files into Wiki Mongolia_Arhangay_2005_sum.png etc for all aymags Bogomolov.PL 10:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
:-)
. I'd always support (and have supported) "correct entity name" in proper names such as
Mumbai/
Bombay,
Gdańsk/
Danzig,
Jaromír Jágr/
Jaromir Jagr, but applying it to terms which have proper English translation/equivalent seems like overdoing it. I'm talking about benefit to the reader: when I see "Arhangay Province" or "Whatever district" I'd get a fairly good idea what's that, but not when I see something utterly unfamiliar such as "Arhangay aymag" or "sum". Plus, there is an apparent problem with plurals and grammar. If I wrote the guideline about subnational entities, it would read "use the English form which is used by the country government in English texts". I know that's the case with e.g.
Voivodeships in Poland, and I assume it's also the case with Russian Oblasts, to name a few. Browse a bit through subcats of
Category:Subdivisions_by_country to see for yourself.
Duja
► 09:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)Rarelibra, I think you're the only native english speaker here, so maybe you need to afford some patience with potential misunderstandings. Let's just all assume good faith and not jump to conclusions too quickly. Btw: Since we actually have two seperate topics here, I'll create two new subtitles to make the discussion easier to follow. -- Latebird 16:06, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the relevant guidelines don't say anything about foreign language plurals, so they were probably not meant to happen. In any case, and after all the weird variations we had in the recent past (partly due to my fault), I guess the least confusing option should be considered.
Does anyone have arguments against using the english forms Aymag/Aymags and Sum/Sums? If not, then I suggest we use those. -- Latebird 16:11, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Х - h; У - u; й,ы - y; Ө - Ö; Ү - Ü; Э - e; Е - ye; Я - ya; ж - j; ь - ǐ; и - i; ч - ch; л - l; м - m; н - n; п - p; р - r; с - s; ц - ts; Б - b; В - v; г - g; д - d; ё - yo; з - z; к - k; т - t; ш - sh.
Ok, so at least we three agree on using english plural forms. Let's wait a few days to see if there are any other voices, and then change all the names accordingly.
I'm starting a new subheading for the transliteration issue. -- Latebird 11:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
If at all possible, I would strongly prefer SVG maps, even if it takes a few days longer to figure out the best way of creating them. Maybe one of you will find a tool here that works with what you already have available.
Bogomolov has pointed me to a sample of what he created: Image:Mongolia_Arhangay_2005_sum.png. I would like to continue that discussion here, so that we may get more diverse input. As far as I can tell, the result is correct, at least the names all correspond to the lists that I have. As to the spelling, in [4], "Ögiy nuur" and "Ih tamir" are written as two words each, which may or may not be better. Then there's a chance that a future WP naming convention for Mongolian will define "Х" as "kh" (current practise varies randomly between "h" and "kh"), but that shouldn't be a difficult change if/once it happens.
Graphically, I'd prefer softer colors (maybe except for the lakes), as recommended by Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Maps. The strong colors can make the text hard to read. Would it be hard to remove the sum boundaries and settlement locations in the surrounding aymags? They make the whole thing look a bit nervous. The boundaries between surrounding aymags (and national boundaries, where relevant) should stay, though. Maybe it would even be useful to label the neighbour aymags, as Yaan has done in his attempt. I think it is ok to leave the country map insert away. After all, we already have maps that show where each aymag is located, and those are included in the respective articles as well. -- Latebird 16:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
SVG is a vector format. If we go this way, then you don't want to create PNGs first. Any intermediate formats should be vector based as well (eg. DXF). -- Latebird 17:52, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
You don't want to convert from one vector format (MapInfo/MicroStation) to another vector format (SVG) by going through an intermediate raster format (PNG). That would destroy all the advantages of using a "full blown mapping system" in the first place, as far as the quality of the result is concerned. -- Latebird 19:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Any decent mapping software can export a variety of vector formats. Now we just need to find one where we then have a (fully vector based) path to SVG. There are probably short and expensive paths, and longer ones with free tools. Maybe we should ask the mapping portal or the folks on Commons if anyone has used this specific combination before. -- Latebird 20:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
The new colors look nice. If we create SVG maps, then the resolution is dynamic at constant (small) file size. It seems that Rarelibra has found a way to create SVG maps from MapInfo. Maybe you can cooperate for him to process your data this way? About that Govi-Altay map: The territory around the capital has a very strange shape. Is that actually what the city administrates, or in which aymag is the capital located geographically? -- Latebird 17:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
About sum division. Aymag is divided into aymag center and sums. Sum and sum center obligatory have the same name. Very frequently sum center is single settlement in it and rest of population is nomadic only registrated in sum center. Besides sum center in sum are possible bag settlements, but a lot of them are seasonally populated (if exist). There are settlements wich are not bags. Usually only sum center has post-office, school, hospital, set of shops, temple. Sum is not only administrative division, but the way to manage pastures - main economy resource. Bags are sum pastures subdivisions. Sum population is officially rural. Urban population in Mongolia is: Ulaanbaatar municipality population and all aymag centers. So, to my opinion, if aymag center is on the territory of sum with its own sum center, this aymag center have to be excluded from surrounding sum. Uvs, Govi-Altay, Orhon, Dundgovi, Dornogovi and Govi-Sumber aymag centers are sum centers too. What with them? Does surronding sum have own administration located in the city, or it has no own administration, but it is rural part of city administrated territory? Bogomolov.PL 08:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I've never heard of a sum center having a different name than the sum.
That map of Arhangay looks very strange. In the Tsetserleg sum, they have two seperate settlements called Hujirt. In the Hairhan sum, there is a place named Hairhan, but the red dot is placed elsewhere. The Tsahir sum has no red dot at all, but a small dot at the border to Tariat is given two names (one of them Tsahir). The name Jargalant appears at least three times, two of them purportedly a sum center, but not in the Jargalant sum... I don't think I would trust this particular map as a reliable source, even if some local webmaster may have thought it was the best he could find.
Bogomolov, have you received a copy of the map that de:Benutzer:Hangarid has? It seems to include the most current version of the official names, which we could use to decide about which names are one or two words. -- Latebird 10:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
re. double and triple names, I think this might be a common problem when dealing with Mongolian maps. I think Hövsgöl has 3-4 mountains called Ih Uuls, for example. Unless someone can come up with a definite source, I'd just ignore the sum center's names, since they are pretty irrelevant anyway. I think Hövsgöl's center Mörön is a sum, too, albeit a rather small one. Or maybe it was one some years ago. Yaan 217.188.99.115 11:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
With Tsagaan-Uul and Tsagaannuur it is my sin - I just fixed this error (Tsagaan - "White" with double "a" always). Thank you, Yaan 85.179.30.25!
Latebird - I'm finising maps correction (pastel colors, removing neighbouring aymags sum boundaries and centers). I'm looking for the ways to converte to SVG. May be Rarelibra will be successful, I sent him MapInfo tabs with sum bounaries and lakes - this makes possible to create outline map for all Mongolia.
Yaan- Mörön can not be any sum: sums are always rural units, but aymag centers are always urban (this is Statistic Office position). Sum is usually former socialist agriculture enterprise headquarters and still is grazeland management unit. And does aymag center fulfil this characteristic attributes? I'd mentioned in discussion that , to my opinion, aymags need to be excluded from surrounding sums. But it doesn not mean aymags will become sum this way. Hatgal - good question. In Авто замын атлас 2005 it is shown by the sum sign, but on adminisrative map it is noted like "other settlement". Usually this sign is used for former sum centers (just lost sum status). Anyway if Hatgal is sum - i have no borders for it. It is very possible this town has post office, grocery stores, gas station etc. I was in 2005 and 2006 in Bayantooroy willage in North Gobi oazis - all infrastructure was present, even house with banner (usually - "сумын дарга" office). But on administrative map - nothing. In Mongolian Wiki this willage name is in brackets, first is the name Цогт (80 km from Gobi desert to the Mongol-Altay tops), like it is on administrative map. Bogomolov.PL 09:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Latebird - I didn't received any maps, but if you know how (verification is good idea) - tell me.
Yaan - a lot of sum centers are noted on maps in wrong places. Sum center can move - it happens (even aymag centers moved). But very possible are map mistakes/distorsions. Guchin-Us sum center (Övörhangay aymag) shift is 15 km. Bogomolov.PL 09:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Bogomolov, I've asked Hangarid to contact you about his map. I hope there won't be too many changes necessary because of it...
Unless I've miscounted, I think for the moment it's save to assume that Mörön and Hatgal are independent tosgons and not part of a sum. Maybe we can have a notice on the talk page of the article (and/or the map image) as a disclaimer until we're really 200% certain. We may also have to double check all other aymags for extra tosgons besides the aymag centers.
Btw: The numer of sum in the table in each article may or may not be correct in some cases. I've used the best information I had available to create them, and sometimes there were conflicts between different sources. -- Latebird 19:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... most sources seem to think that an aymag center is never a sum (or part of a sum). Where can we get an official word on this? -- Latebird 20:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, a lot of the publicly available information is not up to date. This may include plates on buildings and "official" web sites. Addresses probably don't say much about the administrative status of a place either. The problem is that most Mongolians couldn't care less about such administrative trivia, so you'll get many incorrect answers if you ask people... But this is the first time I hear that the Aymag center isn't supposed to be an extra entity, so I'm inclined to go with "conventional wisdom" and list it as a tosgon. If we should happen to get formal confirmation later that Mörön is an exception, we can still change it. -- Latebird 09:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Sum office presence in aymag centre does not mean this city is obligatory sum part. Can be two possible situations: 1. Like Praha (Prague) is the capital, but not the part of Středočeský kraj. 2. City administration is common for both city and surrounding sum. What I don't know: are city administrations separate from aymag administrations? About tosgon. In 1981 was 25 "urban type settlements" (back translation from Russian) and 20 cities in Mongolia. "Urban village" may be better definition, because official statistics add tosgon population to urban one. In Stat.Yearbook 2001 is footnote: "Data from Population and Housing census, 2000. Some settlements, which were clasified as villages in the census are not clasified as them according to the 2000 Resident Population Data". Is it possible tosgon definition is only for statistic use? Bogomolov.PL 13:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
When I get home next week, I'll do some in-depth research in the two relevant books I have. Unfortunately, they only cover Hövsgöl, so they cannot give anything but hints about the situation in other aimags. Yaan 14:02, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
According to M.Nyamaa's (the inlet also mentions the aimag's sasag darga as "redacteur") Hövsgöl aimgiin lavlah tol, UB 2001, p.97f, Mörön became the sum center of a sum called Büren in 1931, in 1933 it (additionally) became the center of Hövsgöl aimag, in 1956 its status changed from Büren sum's 8th bag to an independent unit called Mörön horoo, in 1961 it became Mörön hot. In 1994 it became Mörön sum. The area is about 102 sqkm.
I also had a look into a brochure called "Mörön hot", edited probably 2001 in Mörön. From what I understood, they basically say the same (incl. that Mörön has been a sum since 1994), and they have pictures of each the aimag's and sum's hural and administrative heads (four persons in total). It's not really a surprise since the ultimate sources are probably the same.
As for Hatgal, according to the first source on p.159 it has been independent ever since the aimag's capital was moved to Mörön in 1933 (ene üyees hatgal biye daasan hev shinjid orj högjih bolson yum). in 1975, the status was changed from Hatgal horoo to either hot or 'oron nutgiin har'yaalaltai hot' (not sure if the second might be an official designation). In 1994 its status was changed to tosgon. On p.7, the book, not really helpfully, states that Hövsgöl has 23 sum, one tosgon and 121 bag. Yaan 14:12, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
The english language Wikipedia has yet to decide about a standard transliteration system for Mongolian. I've tried to start a discussion about it some time ago, but didn't have the energy to actually get anything decided then. It is probably a good idea to get this discussion started again, but not here. To create an accepted standard for Wikipedia, it must be discussed on Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Cyrillic).
What I proposed back then was very similar to what you call "Mongolian map transliteration system" (where exactly is that defined?). The only differences were in the "ь" (left away) and the "Х" (kh instead of h). I think this is close enough that we'll find a mutually agreeable solution. Are we ready to convince the rest of the community about it? -- Latebird 11:13, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
The requirements of Wikipedia ask for a phonetic transliteration system, that will help the average english speaker to pronounce the names as correctly as possible without help. Back-transliteration is only of concern in articles about linguistic topics, but not here. After all, we'll give the original mongolian spelling as well, either in a table or in the introduction of each article. But this discussion should really move to the naminc convention pages, so that other interested editors will see it as well. -- Latebird 17:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the established english (and german) name for Говь is "Gobi" (compare Gobi Desert). This is not a transliteration of the current mongolian spelling, but a historically grown english name (similar to eg. " Ulan Bator"). We only need an accurate transliteration where no such english name is common. We have done it this way in the german language WP as well, eg de:Dorno-Gobi-Aimag. I think in all other cases, omitting the ь is unproblematic.
The english term "transliteration" means both literal transliteration and what is usually known as transcription in other languages (eg. German). I was originally confused about this as well, as you'll find documented on the naming conventions talk page. So yes, in your terms, what we need here is a transcription system. Literal transliteration would probably confuse most readers (we write for "normal" people, not for linguists). We don't need to decide about this question now, as it is the established WP naming convention standard. We just need to chose the most suitable transcription system for Mongolian. -- Latebird 10:44, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
The absence of a transliteration convention forces us to define one! I'll update my old proposal at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Cyrillic) with the information from this discussion here, and see that we get a decision soon. Once the convention is defined, we don't need to worry about variations or changes anymore. -- Latebird 11:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I have submitted a formal proposal for the naming conventions. Let's hope that this will result in clearly defined rules soon, so that we won't have to take random choices anymore. Any further comments should be posted there now. -- Latebird 12:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I have also read up a bit on Hövsgöl aimag's history. According to the source mentioned above, the Sain Noyon Han and Zasagt Han aimags and their hoshuus were both renamed in 1923 (I suppose the same applied to the other two old aimags), Sain Noyon Han aimag was renamed into into Tsetserleg mandal uulyn aimag and Zasagt Han aimag into Hantaishir uulyn aimag. Additionally, border areas were (gradually?) incorporated into that structure from then on - like the Drahad area in Hövsgöl, but the same might be true for Hovd and Dariganga. Hövsgöl aimag was founded in 1931, it gave some areas to Zavhan and Bulgan aimags in 1938 (which implies that these aimags existed at least from that time on) and got some areas from Arhangai in 1942.
For the history of Arhangai, compare http://www.silk-road.com/excavation/arkhangai/documents/Arkhangaiaimag.pdf . Yaan 14:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately about other aimags (and only about three of them), I have nothing more than picture books. The ones about Hovd and Uvs don't contain any encyclopedic information. The one about Dornogov' says that the aimag was founded in 1931 from the Sain Noyon Khan aimag (or another one of the four old aimags, anyway under the original name), and that it has 14 sums. The included map showed 13 sums if you include the one that Sainshand is in. But then, the english version of the text also says the aimag is as big as Benelux + Sweden. The mongolian version was closer (Benelux + Switzerland), but I still don't think it's a useful source. The pics are nice, though. Yaan 14:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Something more useful, and fun: http://mongol.tufs.ac.jp/landmaps/ has some scans of old Mongolian maps. One map ( http://mongol.tufs.ac.jp/landmaps/16S.html or http://mongol.tufs.ac.jp/landmaps/16.html for a bigger picture) seems to depict aimag boundaries and names. Unfortunately, there is a scale, but no date given in the legend, and the author of the site doesn't seem to be entirely sure either. Plus it's written in classical mongolian. But if you like old mongolian maps, check the site out. Yaan 12:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The result of the move request was page moved. @ harej 17:22, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Aimags of Mongolia →
Provinces of Mongolia —
WP:Use English.
Chanheigeorge (
talk) 06:25, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Those are the most official and important sources, barring official translations by the Mongolia government. Chanheigeorge ( talk) 04:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
I did some research in the page history. WP:UE and consistency was achieved by Tobias Conradi and Ran. It took them 4 days. And they left the article with a concise introduction. From March 2005 until May 2006 English language with its grammar and orthography was used. In May 2006 this calm and consistent period ended. They only missed to put translation references that they cited on the talk page into the article itself. See whole story:
Please see Category:Country subdivisions by continent to find out that English WP does generally use English native words for article titles, and uses the transliterated terms mostly only as anotation. That the term "aimag/aymag" is used in some specialized books does not mean it is to be used overall. TrueColour ( talk) 18:02, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Comment: per the search results above, it seems that aimag is used more commonly, though. Yaan ( talk) 11:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Weak oppose: I have to qualify my vote by saying that I don't know much about Mongolia. But the only Anglo-American author whose name I can remember as an authority on Mongolia - Owen Lattimore - seemed to have used "Aimak" (see http://books.google.com/books?q=lattimore+aimak&btnG=Search+Books for citations), so by keeping "Aimak" (or "Aimag", which, I suppose, is an alternative, more modern, transliteration), we will be in a good company. (Aimag and aimak both appear abundantly on Google Books, but the latter seems to be more common in older, or East European, sources). A propos of nothing, I think that the Mongolian word "aimag" has also been used in other languages (e.g. Russian, German) to refer to Mongolia's administrative units, so English is not unique in using it. Vmenkov ( talk) 13:27, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Comment: The essence of WP:NAME seems to be "Article names should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources." Since one user insists books are not good enough as sources, here is a more complete search. If we restrict ourself to aimag names with little variation in transscription, we get
i.e. using some variant of "aimag" seems consistently more common than using "province". Yaan ( talk) 10:47, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
It is also "Aymak" spelling, not so frequent, but is.
Bogomolov.PL ( talk) 11:26, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
User TrueColour keeps adding a statement to the article about what the "usual translation" of the term Aimag is in his opinion. He lists the World Factbook and Statoids as examples, purporting them to be "references". But that's not how references work. A valid reference would be a publication making the same statement as the article, specifically "Aimag is usually translated as Province". Taking two examples and claiming them to be references is Original Synthesis of those sources and not acceptable in Wikipedia. It seems as if TrueColor is trying to "create facts" to support his position in the rename request above. I don't think that is quite the correct way to go about it. -- Latebird ( talk) 17:47, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
ISO 3166-2 Codes for the representation of names of countries and their subdivisions – Part 2: Country subdivision code provides codes for the "names" of country subdivisions and the "names" of the country subdivisions itself. Please read the standard. But it does not matter what the purpose of it is. It is one source and each source using a specific name is an example for the usage of that name. Like in the section above where editors dived into google counting, sources are counted, and sources are examples. That "The ISO idea was not to teach the world the correct English names" is irrelevant. Every text using correct English IS teaching correct English, even without the specific idea of doing so.
@Latebird and the personal attack: ("I also don't quite understand why an editor insists on entirely ignoring the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Mongolian)"), please respect WP:NPA. Furthermore WP:MON in the form it is in since September 2008, supports the use of the term "province" more then the use of "aimag". Please calm down with your prose. TrueColour ( talk) 21:58, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
This edit asks for the sources, but what can I do? I have this official administrative divisions map in my hands, the name of this map was added in the reference. What extra information has to be added? Bogomolov.PL ( talk) 17:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
This is not directly related to the current naming dispute, but if we mention that aimag is sometimes translated into English as province, should we also mention that the common translation of province (as in Hebei province) into Mongolian is not aimag, but muj? Yaan ( talk) 17:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
The 2006 statistical yearbook on p.62 says that "Mongol Ulsyn nutag devser zasag zahirgaany huv'd 21 aimag, niislel [...] huvaagdana". So my impression is that this type of subdivision is called "niislel", not "hot". Of course in colloquial speech UB is both (even kind of synonymous with both!), I just think that since this article is about Mongolia's administrative structure, we should either use the most official term (plus translation) or no term at all. Yaan ( talk) 18:55, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Ayimag as tribe is a fundamental misreading of the term. See Christopher P. Atwood's article "The Administrative Origins of Mongolia's "Tribal" Vocabulary" Eurasia: Statun Et Legum 1(4):7-45:
"ayimag is, on its own, never used as a classifier word for tribal names in any Middle Mongolian text. Not a single Middle Mongolian text pairs ayimag alone with any names tribal or ethnic unit. Instead, extant Middle Mongolian texts use ayimags only in the abstract, to describe units or divisions within a single category: all the ayimags of soldiers, and so on. To refer to "such and such" ayimag~aimag - the Tatar aimag, the Khereid aimag and so on - is common usage in modern Mongolian, but has no foundation in Middle Mongolian. This David Sneath's revisionist position is indeed borne out by the philological data: the administrative meaning of aimag~ayimag is indeed prior to its "tribal" meaning, which must have come into use some time after 1368" (16-17).
I'm deleting the reference to tribe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:18E8:2:28B8:D04E:4D41:84DC:F12 ( talk) 20:52, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
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