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"In Irish history, Protestants, as seems ironic to some, actually led the way for Irish nationalism."
After 1790 the leadership was 90% Anglican / Presbyterian. Nothing "ironic" about that unless you went to a church school and were told something else. Across Europe in the 1790s all the Catholic states were absolutist monarchies, and the Pope liked it that way. 86.42.203.68 ( talk) 12:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
What a good page. There would have been no 1798, no IPP / Home Rule and no rifles for the 1916 Rising without this lot. Red Hurley ( talk) 16:11, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
This title seems a bit ambiguous to me? Protestant Irish nationalism? Stu ’Bout ye! 09:19, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Since Northern Ireland has never been part of the Republic would the term "United Ireland" or simply "unification" not be more appropriate? Furious Andrew ( talk
I have just moved this page from Protestant Irish nationalism to the current title Protestant Irish nationalists, because while it offers a modestly well-referenced account of individual protestants who were Irish nationalists, it has not a single reference to support the existence of such of a specifically protestant type of Irish nationalism.
If the distinction seems minor, consider an article on " Jewish Irish nationalism", listing Robert Briscoe and his son Ben as its leading lights. Despite their notable roles, "Jewish Irish nationalism" is a non-phenomenon, and the Briscoes should instead be in a list of Jewish Irish nationalists ... because although they were both Jewish, I am not aware of any evidence that their nationalism was of a particularly Jewish type.
Similarly, this article does not distinguish between the existence of protestants who were nationalists, and the more theoretical question of to what degree (if any) their nationalism was a specifically form. The concept of a specifically "Protestant Irish nationalism" not a novel one, and there are Google Scholar suggest about references on the topic ... but this article remain focused on the ists, and does not even try to address the nature of the alleged ism.
"Protestant Irish nationalism" could be a very important article if someone would write it, but an article of that title needs to define an ideology or a movement rather than just listing individuals. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 17:03, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Out of curiousity why exactly is the following required in the lede:
Across the island of Ireland, the largest Protestant denomination is the Church of Ireland (having roughly 365,000 members,[1] making up around 3% of the Republic of Ireland and 15% of Northern Ireland), followed by the Presbyterian Church of Ireland (having a membership of around 300,000,[2] accounting for 0.6% of people in the Republic and 20% of Northern Ireland). As of 2008[update], 4% of Protestants in Northern Ireland supported reunification with the Republic of Ireland.[3]
Whilst the last line is relevant to the article, surely everything that precedes it would be better placed in Protestantism in Ireland? Needs soucing too. Mabuska (talk) 14:09, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Sean Cronin in his Irish Nationalism: A History of it's Roots and Ideology, on page 2 says that "Nationalism is a nineteenth-century term" citing The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (Oxford: 1965) which says "gives the currency of the word as 1844 while the usage is associated with Ireland." In the eighteenth-century Ireland, we are talking about Protestant Irish "republicans" not "nationalists." The paragraph I placed a citation tag on is not supported by the article. It needs to be covered in the article, or removed.-- Domer48 'fenian' 20:31, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
The current opening is:
Protestant Irish nationalists are Protestants in Northern Ireland who support a united Ireland (previously a supporter in Ireland of a more or less fully independent Irish nation, varying from a form of home rule to complete independence).
We all know that Protestant Irish nationalist don't just come from Northern Ireland and the article (rightly) deals with Protestant nationalists from all parts of Ireland.
I suggest the following:
Protestant Irish nationalists are Protestants in Ireland who support the severing of political ties between the island of Ireland and the island of Great Britain. Historically, the severing of these ties ranged from supporting the legislative independence of the Parliament of Ireland, prior to the union of the Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland (forming the United Kingdom), to a form of home rule within the United Kingdom, to complete independence, and (since the partition of Ireland) the re-unification of Ireland. Protestant Irish nationalists are notable because nationalism in Ireland has come to be chiefly associated with Roman Catholics, particularly since the secession of most of Ireland from the United Kingdom in 1922. However, historically this is not an entirely accurate picture.
--RA ( talk) 08:32, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Any better:
Irish nationalism has be chiefly associated with Roman Catholics. However, historically this is not an entirely accurate picture. Protestants nationalists (or patriots, particularly before the mid-19th century) were also influential supporters of the political independence the island of Ireland from the island of Great Britain and leaders of national movements. Historically, this independence ranged from supporting the legislative independence of the Parliament of Ireland, prior to the union of the Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland (forming the United Kingdom), to a form of home rule within the United Kingdom, to complete independence, and (since the partition of Ireland) the re-unification of Ireland.
This would also remove the bold face, per WP:BOLDTITLE, assuming that the title is a descriptive one (which I think it more appropriate in this case). -- RA ( talk) 17:39, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
I added a section relevance tag to this section, which contains only the following text:
As well as the more or less republican Protestants, a considerable number of former southern Protestant unionists accepted the new reality and worked with the new Free State from its difficult start in 1922-23. These included judges such as Lord Glenavy, whose suggestions for a new law courts system was enacted as the Courts Act 1924, and twenty accepted nominations to the new Senate, such as Lord Mayo.
I originally removed it, however Hohenloh reverted that stating that it doesn't need to be deleted, but per WP:TOPIC, it merits deletion:
Two simple points that need clarifying otherwise the section is viable for deletion. Mabuska (talk) 09:55, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Does Roy Johnston qualify? Seems to be, but I'm not expert enough to say. Red Hurley ( talk) 10:29, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Maybe the seeming "contradiction" here has to be understood in terms of class rather than religion. Of course, in 18th and 19th c. Ireland, the class and religious divisions were closely related. On the whole, the upper classes had choices. They had access to education, opportunities to travel, and contacts with what was happening in other places. So, whatever new ideas were being discussed, they had leadership opportunities denied to the lower classes. Even in conservative families, the "younger sons" could be rebellious in ways that were almost risk-free. When members of the lower class wanted to rise in the world, they had to be more circumspect. It would be risky for them to try to change things. TomonaD ( talk) 23:57, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Stephens, a Dubliner, was reared at the Protestant Meath Protestant Industrial School - sent there for begging as a child. Like Sean O'Casey, nowadays we tend to forget the then Dublin protestant working class. 78.16.58.201 ( talk) 07:40, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
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"In Irish history, Protestants, as seems ironic to some, actually led the way for Irish nationalism."
After 1790 the leadership was 90% Anglican / Presbyterian. Nothing "ironic" about that unless you went to a church school and were told something else. Across Europe in the 1790s all the Catholic states were absolutist monarchies, and the Pope liked it that way. 86.42.203.68 ( talk) 12:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
What a good page. There would have been no 1798, no IPP / Home Rule and no rifles for the 1916 Rising without this lot. Red Hurley ( talk) 16:11, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
This title seems a bit ambiguous to me? Protestant Irish nationalism? Stu ’Bout ye! 09:19, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Since Northern Ireland has never been part of the Republic would the term "United Ireland" or simply "unification" not be more appropriate? Furious Andrew ( talk
I have just moved this page from Protestant Irish nationalism to the current title Protestant Irish nationalists, because while it offers a modestly well-referenced account of individual protestants who were Irish nationalists, it has not a single reference to support the existence of such of a specifically protestant type of Irish nationalism.
If the distinction seems minor, consider an article on " Jewish Irish nationalism", listing Robert Briscoe and his son Ben as its leading lights. Despite their notable roles, "Jewish Irish nationalism" is a non-phenomenon, and the Briscoes should instead be in a list of Jewish Irish nationalists ... because although they were both Jewish, I am not aware of any evidence that their nationalism was of a particularly Jewish type.
Similarly, this article does not distinguish between the existence of protestants who were nationalists, and the more theoretical question of to what degree (if any) their nationalism was a specifically form. The concept of a specifically "Protestant Irish nationalism" not a novel one, and there are Google Scholar suggest about references on the topic ... but this article remain focused on the ists, and does not even try to address the nature of the alleged ism.
"Protestant Irish nationalism" could be a very important article if someone would write it, but an article of that title needs to define an ideology or a movement rather than just listing individuals. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 17:03, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
Out of curiousity why exactly is the following required in the lede:
Across the island of Ireland, the largest Protestant denomination is the Church of Ireland (having roughly 365,000 members,[1] making up around 3% of the Republic of Ireland and 15% of Northern Ireland), followed by the Presbyterian Church of Ireland (having a membership of around 300,000,[2] accounting for 0.6% of people in the Republic and 20% of Northern Ireland). As of 2008[update], 4% of Protestants in Northern Ireland supported reunification with the Republic of Ireland.[3]
Whilst the last line is relevant to the article, surely everything that precedes it would be better placed in Protestantism in Ireland? Needs soucing too. Mabuska (talk) 14:09, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Sean Cronin in his Irish Nationalism: A History of it's Roots and Ideology, on page 2 says that "Nationalism is a nineteenth-century term" citing The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (Oxford: 1965) which says "gives the currency of the word as 1844 while the usage is associated with Ireland." In the eighteenth-century Ireland, we are talking about Protestant Irish "republicans" not "nationalists." The paragraph I placed a citation tag on is not supported by the article. It needs to be covered in the article, or removed.-- Domer48 'fenian' 20:31, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
The current opening is:
Protestant Irish nationalists are Protestants in Northern Ireland who support a united Ireland (previously a supporter in Ireland of a more or less fully independent Irish nation, varying from a form of home rule to complete independence).
We all know that Protestant Irish nationalist don't just come from Northern Ireland and the article (rightly) deals with Protestant nationalists from all parts of Ireland.
I suggest the following:
Protestant Irish nationalists are Protestants in Ireland who support the severing of political ties between the island of Ireland and the island of Great Britain. Historically, the severing of these ties ranged from supporting the legislative independence of the Parliament of Ireland, prior to the union of the Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland (forming the United Kingdom), to a form of home rule within the United Kingdom, to complete independence, and (since the partition of Ireland) the re-unification of Ireland. Protestant Irish nationalists are notable because nationalism in Ireland has come to be chiefly associated with Roman Catholics, particularly since the secession of most of Ireland from the United Kingdom in 1922. However, historically this is not an entirely accurate picture.
--RA ( talk) 08:32, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Any better:
Irish nationalism has be chiefly associated with Roman Catholics. However, historically this is not an entirely accurate picture. Protestants nationalists (or patriots, particularly before the mid-19th century) were also influential supporters of the political independence the island of Ireland from the island of Great Britain and leaders of national movements. Historically, this independence ranged from supporting the legislative independence of the Parliament of Ireland, prior to the union of the Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland (forming the United Kingdom), to a form of home rule within the United Kingdom, to complete independence, and (since the partition of Ireland) the re-unification of Ireland.
This would also remove the bold face, per WP:BOLDTITLE, assuming that the title is a descriptive one (which I think it more appropriate in this case). -- RA ( talk) 17:39, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
I added a section relevance tag to this section, which contains only the following text:
As well as the more or less republican Protestants, a considerable number of former southern Protestant unionists accepted the new reality and worked with the new Free State from its difficult start in 1922-23. These included judges such as Lord Glenavy, whose suggestions for a new law courts system was enacted as the Courts Act 1924, and twenty accepted nominations to the new Senate, such as Lord Mayo.
I originally removed it, however Hohenloh reverted that stating that it doesn't need to be deleted, but per WP:TOPIC, it merits deletion:
Two simple points that need clarifying otherwise the section is viable for deletion. Mabuska (talk) 09:55, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Does Roy Johnston qualify? Seems to be, but I'm not expert enough to say. Red Hurley ( talk) 10:29, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Maybe the seeming "contradiction" here has to be understood in terms of class rather than religion. Of course, in 18th and 19th c. Ireland, the class and religious divisions were closely related. On the whole, the upper classes had choices. They had access to education, opportunities to travel, and contacts with what was happening in other places. So, whatever new ideas were being discussed, they had leadership opportunities denied to the lower classes. Even in conservative families, the "younger sons" could be rebellious in ways that were almost risk-free. When members of the lower class wanted to rise in the world, they had to be more circumspect. It would be risky for them to try to change things. TomonaD ( talk) 23:57, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Stephens, a Dubliner, was reared at the Protestant Meath Protestant Industrial School - sent there for begging as a child. Like Sean O'Casey, nowadays we tend to forget the then Dublin protestant working class. 78.16.58.201 ( talk) 07:40, 20 October 2020 (UTC)