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I thought it would be a good idea to start this page User:Yoshiah_ap
There is so much history sorrounding this that could go on for pages and pages, why is there not even one sentence ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.207.234 ( talk) 16:41, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
I am going to give the benefit of the doubt on this one and challenge you to substantiate the claim rather than list this page on wikipedia:VFD. GrazingshipIV 05:18, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)
If you are reffering to the remark that organizations such as Jews for Jesus started the Hebrew Christianity movement, I changed to mention that they are involved in it instead. User:Yoshiah_ap-- Yoshiah ap 06:56, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Just what is wrong with this page? It is completely factual: most traditional Jewish communities will resist campaigns by Jews for J. It might be more than slightly POV to mention their budget, but:
JFW |
T@lk 22:37, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Since GrazingshipIV is no longer active in this page, and has not listed what his objection is, I will remove the "disputed" status of it. -- Yoshiah ap 01:21, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Why remove the Netzarim site? Have a look at these [1] [2] [3] pages The point about [netzarim.co.il the netzarim site] is that they are orthodox Jews they are torah observant no torah-observant orthodox rabbi has called them apostate and they are totally anti-missionary in a big way. I will not say anything bad about them because I do not want to be accused of leshon ha-ra do you? The site is as relevant to anti-missionary work as any anti-missionary Chabadnik site and for obvious reasons MUCH more so. I know you have had a difficult time defending Karaites as Jews Yoshiah, so one would think you would be very careful to hide them away and forget about them. All the best Zestauferov 17:51, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
P.S. they do not preach him as the messiah they preach him as the diametrically opposed 666 anti-chrst. How did you miss that? Zestauferov 17:57, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Why not appropriate? I forced myself to have another read. They are not denouncing anti-missionary work per se, they just believe that they have a better style of anti-missionary approach. Also they are legitimate orthodox Jews until the Sanhedrein is reformed to make a ruling about them.
Zestauferov 10:08, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Ok, the article is literally anti-missionary in name only because it is about Jewish attemtpts to counter christian missions targeting Jews. If the article was broader then of course literally the netzarim are missionary in that it seems they want to make the whole world Jewish. But in the sense that the article is currently presented, the netzarim cannot be called missionary becasue first and formost they do not target heterodox Judaism, and they like all the groups being discussed are very active in Jewish retrieval. They do not care whether the Jew being retrieved becomes orthodox under another beth din or whether they decide to join the netzarim beth din because their main point is arresting the attempts of christian missionary work targeted at Jews and to encourage Jews back into the folds of orthodox rabbinical tradition. I am just wondering if there is some other reason for wanting to exclude them. Since you are not accusing them of being non-orthodox Jews how can we say their attempts at bringing Jews away from christianity and back into the fold of Judaism are not anti-missionary? Thankyou for taking tome to debate this with me. Zestauferov 05:42, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well I suppose the best solution would be to write to them and ask them. But be warned that they are not really a very friendly bunch from what I have heard. More like Beth Shammai than Beth Hillel. Zestauferov 08:19, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The Counter-Missionary groups call themselves that, not Anti-Missionary; it is the groups they oppose which typically call them "Anti-Missionary". The reason is that the Counter-Missionaries view themselves as countering missionary activities and materials, not "anti" the missionaries themselves. Jayjg 21:14, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Since I added the {stub} tag, here are some questions it might be good for the article to address.
These are just some ideas. I'm sure there are other interesting things to know about them as well. Wesley 16:02, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Is Counter-Missionary literature generally polemic, apologetic, or both? — Charles P. (Mirv) 22:11, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the illuminating answers. What about controversialist literature written against classical paganism (e.g. Against Apion) and Islam (e.g. Simon Duran's Keshet u-Magen)? Is this also called "Counter-Missionary"? — Charles P. (Mirv) 16:30, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
"Kiruv rechokim" means "to make those who are distant close", and not "Jewish Outreach". Desdendelle ( talk) 15:50, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Counter-missionary's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "RELTOL":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 23:43, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
References to Messiah Truth, a major counter missionary resource, were removed from this article. The reason given was that Sophiee1 is affiliated with the site. The reference should be in the article as Messiah Truth is one of the most active counter missionary resources on the internet. It is more actively monitored than "Outreach Judaism" and run by Rabbis and Yeshiva (Jewish school) instructors. Since I am affiliated with the site as a non-paid moderator, will someone else please edit the article to insert both the website and forum links?
http://www.messiahtruth.yuku.com
Kosher Judaism, on the other hand, is a less known resource and I have no problems with it being eliminated from the article as a resource. I am the administrator at Kosher Judaism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sophiee1 ( talk • contribs) 17:40, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
This article needs a lot of work. Counter-missionary organizations are certainly notable and deserve coverage in Wikipedia, but the coverage needs to follow Wikipedia principles.
The primary problem is Neutral Point of View. The current article assumes that conversion of Jews to other religions is a bad thing and conversely that opposing conversion is a good thing. It assumes that people with Jewish family backgrounds (ethnic Jews) should be encouraged to practice Judaism. All that is pure opinion and a violation of NPOV. Of course, it is important to report that various Jewish organizations espouse these beliefs: that is an objective fact.
Parts of the article read like marketing materials of the groups being covered, e.g. "Outreach Judaism provides full-time, multi-level informational resources." Simply rephrasing primary sources in this way constitutes Original Research. The article suffers from being almost entirely sourced from counter-missionary organizations' Web sites -- surely there is some good third-party research on this phenomenon?
Let's try to get better sources for this article and make it reflect a Neutral Point of View. -- Macrakis ( talk) 02:44, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Brewcrewer requested an elaboration why I made a distinction between 'Judaism' and 'mainstream Judaism.' In short, the CounterMissionary [POV] is that their minority opinion is the only Orthodox, Conservative and (sometimes) Reform are valid expression of Judaism. By example, they do not acknowledge JuBu as authentic Judaism. CM have also made special effort to counter Messianic Judaism as not being 'mainstream'. My clarification was more accurate. -- DeknMike ( talk) 02:03, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
This article appears entirely, or almost entirely, sourced to websites of Jewish counter-missionary organisations and/or religious organisations targeting Jews for conversion -- i.e. WP:PRIMARY sources (and quite likely in many instances WP:SPS). This is an insufficient basis for a Wikipedia article. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 10:48, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
I hadn't noticed this page move: (cur | prev) 08:10, 16 May 2011 Hrafn (talk | contribs) m (16,978 bytes) (moved Jewish views on missionaries and counter-missionaries to Proselytization and counter-proselytization of Jews: More NPOV title, per talk) (undo)
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Should this article include intra-proselytization of Jews? As I understand it, Jews from the different main denominations often try to get Jews from other denominations to "repent" and join their denomination. E.g., an Orthodox Jew might try to convert a Reform Jew. Psiĥedelisto ( talk) 13:07, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
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I thought it would be a good idea to start this page User:Yoshiah_ap
There is so much history sorrounding this that could go on for pages and pages, why is there not even one sentence ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.145.207.234 ( talk) 16:41, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
I am going to give the benefit of the doubt on this one and challenge you to substantiate the claim rather than list this page on wikipedia:VFD. GrazingshipIV 05:18, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)
If you are reffering to the remark that organizations such as Jews for Jesus started the Hebrew Christianity movement, I changed to mention that they are involved in it instead. User:Yoshiah_ap-- Yoshiah ap 06:56, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Just what is wrong with this page? It is completely factual: most traditional Jewish communities will resist campaigns by Jews for J. It might be more than slightly POV to mention their budget, but:
JFW |
T@lk 22:37, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Since GrazingshipIV is no longer active in this page, and has not listed what his objection is, I will remove the "disputed" status of it. -- Yoshiah ap 01:21, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Why remove the Netzarim site? Have a look at these [1] [2] [3] pages The point about [netzarim.co.il the netzarim site] is that they are orthodox Jews they are torah observant no torah-observant orthodox rabbi has called them apostate and they are totally anti-missionary in a big way. I will not say anything bad about them because I do not want to be accused of leshon ha-ra do you? The site is as relevant to anti-missionary work as any anti-missionary Chabadnik site and for obvious reasons MUCH more so. I know you have had a difficult time defending Karaites as Jews Yoshiah, so one would think you would be very careful to hide them away and forget about them. All the best Zestauferov 17:51, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
P.S. they do not preach him as the messiah they preach him as the diametrically opposed 666 anti-chrst. How did you miss that? Zestauferov 17:57, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Why not appropriate? I forced myself to have another read. They are not denouncing anti-missionary work per se, they just believe that they have a better style of anti-missionary approach. Also they are legitimate orthodox Jews until the Sanhedrein is reformed to make a ruling about them.
Zestauferov 10:08, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Ok, the article is literally anti-missionary in name only because it is about Jewish attemtpts to counter christian missions targeting Jews. If the article was broader then of course literally the netzarim are missionary in that it seems they want to make the whole world Jewish. But in the sense that the article is currently presented, the netzarim cannot be called missionary becasue first and formost they do not target heterodox Judaism, and they like all the groups being discussed are very active in Jewish retrieval. They do not care whether the Jew being retrieved becomes orthodox under another beth din or whether they decide to join the netzarim beth din because their main point is arresting the attempts of christian missionary work targeted at Jews and to encourage Jews back into the folds of orthodox rabbinical tradition. I am just wondering if there is some other reason for wanting to exclude them. Since you are not accusing them of being non-orthodox Jews how can we say their attempts at bringing Jews away from christianity and back into the fold of Judaism are not anti-missionary? Thankyou for taking tome to debate this with me. Zestauferov 05:42, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well I suppose the best solution would be to write to them and ask them. But be warned that they are not really a very friendly bunch from what I have heard. More like Beth Shammai than Beth Hillel. Zestauferov 08:19, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The Counter-Missionary groups call themselves that, not Anti-Missionary; it is the groups they oppose which typically call them "Anti-Missionary". The reason is that the Counter-Missionaries view themselves as countering missionary activities and materials, not "anti" the missionaries themselves. Jayjg 21:14, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Since I added the {stub} tag, here are some questions it might be good for the article to address.
These are just some ideas. I'm sure there are other interesting things to know about them as well. Wesley 16:02, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Is Counter-Missionary literature generally polemic, apologetic, or both? — Charles P. (Mirv) 22:11, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the illuminating answers. What about controversialist literature written against classical paganism (e.g. Against Apion) and Islam (e.g. Simon Duran's Keshet u-Magen)? Is this also called "Counter-Missionary"? — Charles P. (Mirv) 16:30, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
"Kiruv rechokim" means "to make those who are distant close", and not "Jewish Outreach". Desdendelle ( talk) 15:50, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Counter-missionary's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "RELTOL":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 23:43, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
References to Messiah Truth, a major counter missionary resource, were removed from this article. The reason given was that Sophiee1 is affiliated with the site. The reference should be in the article as Messiah Truth is one of the most active counter missionary resources on the internet. It is more actively monitored than "Outreach Judaism" and run by Rabbis and Yeshiva (Jewish school) instructors. Since I am affiliated with the site as a non-paid moderator, will someone else please edit the article to insert both the website and forum links?
http://www.messiahtruth.yuku.com
Kosher Judaism, on the other hand, is a less known resource and I have no problems with it being eliminated from the article as a resource. I am the administrator at Kosher Judaism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sophiee1 ( talk • contribs) 17:40, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
This article needs a lot of work. Counter-missionary organizations are certainly notable and deserve coverage in Wikipedia, but the coverage needs to follow Wikipedia principles.
The primary problem is Neutral Point of View. The current article assumes that conversion of Jews to other religions is a bad thing and conversely that opposing conversion is a good thing. It assumes that people with Jewish family backgrounds (ethnic Jews) should be encouraged to practice Judaism. All that is pure opinion and a violation of NPOV. Of course, it is important to report that various Jewish organizations espouse these beliefs: that is an objective fact.
Parts of the article read like marketing materials of the groups being covered, e.g. "Outreach Judaism provides full-time, multi-level informational resources." Simply rephrasing primary sources in this way constitutes Original Research. The article suffers from being almost entirely sourced from counter-missionary organizations' Web sites -- surely there is some good third-party research on this phenomenon?
Let's try to get better sources for this article and make it reflect a Neutral Point of View. -- Macrakis ( talk) 02:44, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
Brewcrewer requested an elaboration why I made a distinction between 'Judaism' and 'mainstream Judaism.' In short, the CounterMissionary [POV] is that their minority opinion is the only Orthodox, Conservative and (sometimes) Reform are valid expression of Judaism. By example, they do not acknowledge JuBu as authentic Judaism. CM have also made special effort to counter Messianic Judaism as not being 'mainstream'. My clarification was more accurate. -- DeknMike ( talk) 02:03, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
This article appears entirely, or almost entirely, sourced to websites of Jewish counter-missionary organisations and/or religious organisations targeting Jews for conversion -- i.e. WP:PRIMARY sources (and quite likely in many instances WP:SPS). This is an insufficient basis for a Wikipedia article. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 10:48, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
I hadn't noticed this page move: (cur | prev) 08:10, 16 May 2011 Hrafn (talk | contribs) m (16,978 bytes) (moved Jewish views on missionaries and counter-missionaries to Proselytization and counter-proselytization of Jews: More NPOV title, per talk) (undo)
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Should this article include intra-proselytization of Jews? As I understand it, Jews from the different main denominations often try to get Jews from other denominations to "repent" and join their denomination. E.g., an Orthodox Jew might try to convert a Reform Jew. Psiĥedelisto ( talk) 13:07, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
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