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-- Mrg3105 09:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The parts below are taken from unedited body of the article.
"In many religions, gods or other supernatural agents are thought to sometimes provide prophecies to certain individuals, sometimes known as prophets, by dreams or visions. The Tanakh, the Old Testament of the Bible, contains prophecies from various Hebrew prophets who spoke judgement upon the Israelites, foretold of their impending trials, tribulations, and then promised divine blessings if the Hebrews repented from their evil ways. The Book of Revelation in the New Testament is accepted by many Christians as a prophecy that includes divine promises of a anointed messiah or Christ that would lead the people in war and personally issue judgement at the end times and Armageddon (see Eschatology, Bible prophecy and "End of the World")."
In any case Jesus had not achieved the vast majority of prophecies attributed to him. He is called 'son of God' by the decree of the Christian dogma. Almost no one in general society calls Jesus 'son of God' these days.-- Mrg3105 02:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a direct reference to Christianity, and how it defines prophecy. However this post-dates the Jewish definition and has to be reflected accordingly lest the reader be confused in thinking that this is shared by other faiths.-- Mrg3105 02:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
This seeks to describe ‘power of prophecy’ while the evidence has not been provided. Considering that Jewish understanding maintains that prophecy is no longer possible, it is pointless to suggest that science is incapable of attesting to it without examining the arguments to the contrary! In fact this is a new topic in the article.-- Mrg3105 02:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following recent addition:
The second sentence is POV, so it needs to be removed. The first sentence, although true, doesn't add anything to the description of prophecy, although with a good link (wiki or otherwise) I think it could go back in. - UtherSRG 13:11, 23 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. I knew there'd be a good link for it, but I know there's a ton of Christianity and Jesus articles.
I was wondering about the following,
Prophecy is a poor guide to the future. You don't understand the events until they are already you, or have already occured.
Would that be accurate to say about prophecy?
JesseG 03:32, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the History of Prophecy section seems a bit unlikely to me, perhaps examples would make it make more sense or names of schools of prophecy or something that would explain how they survived from 400 to 1800 without many knowing of it.
I think the page could use statistics of religions involving prophecies and how many people follow these religions. The point would be to show that many people (possibly the majority of the world) buy into some sort of prophecy.
I was wondering about starting an article on End Times prophecies and the Signs of the Times. Such an article might discuss what the prophets have projected as end times scenarios, and how fulfillments might or are being interpreted. Can somebody more familiar with this area in Wikipedia give me a clue? Tom 18:11, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Maybe take a look at Christian eschatology, Jewish eschatology, etc.? "Eschatology" is the "study of last things," sounds like what you're looking for. Wesley 17:14, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
User:Gtrmp has placed a banner urging a merge with the entry Prophet. The confusion between the two in some Christian cults is not an issue for the rest of us. It has no basis in the history of ideas.
Though I must not characterize it, the section Nature of reality in prophecy really does not represent any mainstream concept. How can this folk-culture be presented at Wikipedia in a genuinely neutral manner, which also discusses the cultural context from which these ideas have arisen? -- Wetman 03:14, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The zany additions from a couple of anonymous ISPs June 19 and 20, 2004, were made by a User who hasn't returned. Couldn't we just revert and move forward again more sensibly than by giving the prophecy-school curriculum as of 7500 B.C. etc etc? -- Wetman 14:16, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
even though prohpecies aren't understood until they happen, they have influence on the veiw taken on the events that occured. it creates insight into what we would otherwise never understand.
How does the section "Nature of reality in prophecy" belong in Wikipedia? This is a personal fantasy, contributed by Anonymous User:4.225.197.202 back in June 2004, which has stood in the article long enough. I have moved it here for your perusal, as part of the requested "Clean-up":
-- Wetman 08:49, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I meant to move it here but lost the contents of my clipboard. My bad. Please see history if you want to it. - Trick 23:10, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The following was so completely unread I had to move it here:
Historical evidence of prophecy claims dates back to the Tibetans and societies in the Himalayan regions, where monks spoke of future events.
The Egyptian prophets and divinators were highly revered in their society, as they helped the Pharaohs make decisions to deal with the daily activities of their people. Many Egyptian murals can still be found depicting these seers advising the Pharaohs.
The Chaldean prophets and astrologers were so renowned that if a Chaldean person was found to be traveling outside of Chaldea, they were automatically thought to be able to prophesize and read the stars.
The Greek Oracles were visited by people from all over the ancient world. The Oracles used a variety of techniques to induce the prophetic trance, that included sitting in hot springs caves, dancing, singing, and meditation. The Delphic seer in particular was known as the "eyes and ears of God".
The Roman historian Pompeius Trogus declared that the Celts excelled at prophecy when reading from the Akashic Records and the stars. On his way to Rome, St. Malachy (Maelmaedhog Ua Morgair) fell into a trance and uttered prophecies about every pope from 1143CE to the end of the Catholic Church.
Tibet: not understanding the cyclical nature of events an uncomprehending outsider might imagine "prophecy." Egypt: part of a priest's role was interpreting the will of the gods. There was an oracle at Ammon but priests were not prophesying. Chaldean: This is in Victorian Bible books. Delphi: ""eyes and ears of God" an invention. "God" is a giveaway. You can't begin at this level and reach any kind of adult text. -- Wetman 20:25, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The main page has a sentence that starts, "About 40% of the text of the Bible is the actual Word of God or prophecies". This is somewhat misleading, as it says something different than what most Christians mean when they use the phrase, "the Word of God". All the Reformed Confessions (along with most fundamentalists) are emphatic that the whole of the Bible is the Word of God, and that includes all the parts which are narrative history and comment on events, etc. I suspect that whoever wrote this sentence intended to mean that about 40% of the text is set out in the form of God speaking. If so, the wording should be altered to reflect that. DFH 17:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
The sentence, "That dream or vision based ability includes foreseeing healthful solutions to ailments, and several other abilities, all of which were 'lost' by Romans taking over the religious control of the early church." is an unsubstantiated POV statement, which has no place in an encyclopedia page. I am about to delete it. DFH 17:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
The sentence in the main page, "The Bible itself is a long series of prophecies, written by people inspired by God from their dreams and visions." is inaccurate both as a description of the Bible and as a theory about the "how" of Biblical prophecies. Only a relatively small fraction of Bible prophecies are set out as having come through dreams and/or visions. Obvious examples are parts of the Book of Daniel and the whole of the Book of Revelation. The major part of prophetic writings in the Bible are not so described in the Biblical text, and it is misleading to report that they are. There is no single method whereby Bible prophecies were given, but rather there is considerable variety in time and place as to how the prophecies were received. This whole section needs a rewrite by someone who really knows the subject. DFH 17:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
The external links section is becoming too large (I suspect many of these links are merely vanity advertising or hobby-horses). Moreover, none of them have even the briefest of descriptions to indicate why the particular link should be of interest or relevance to the main article. Those who posted the links should review them asap, otherwise someone is likely to start to prune most of them in the near future. DFH 13:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
-I'm deleting the following:
• Thiaoouba Prophecy - does not deal with prophecy
• Elijah List - does not deal with prophecy, but rather with an online community
• The Celestine Prophecy - new age work of fiction
• I Ching - belongs in the divination article, or maybe Chinese philosophy
• Akashic Records - does not deal with prophecy
• Cassandra - a misinterpretation of the Greek text which actually deals with Precognition
-- Mrg3105 06:42, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Seriously, wasn't this artical deleted before? Why has it reappeared? What is it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.61.220.143 ( talk) 00:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC).
I don't think it should be deleted, altho it has no citation, i've been monitoring this topic very closely, and no matter how many times it's deleted it just keeps coming back . . .
In the section entitled Scientific prediction it says:
... the implication being that non-scientific prophecies necessarily always come true. I'm afraid I don't believe this. What about all the date-specific "end of the world" prophecies that have failed to materialize? - 84.65.12.158 19:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
You cannot have an article about prophecy without also mentioning Sollog. He has made many prophecies that have come true and the evidence for this is stored on Google. He has issued time stamped prophecies on Google such as this one :
http://sollogs.com/911warning.html
That was about 911. The date shows it was made 3 years to the day before 911. The date stamp is genuine. So shouldn't this be included in this article?
There are more examples of his prophecies on his website.
There is also an article about him on Wikipedia. If he is notable enough to be included on Wikipedia then why no mention of him in this article?
Arnold1 06:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, Grover from Sesame Street made some astounding prophecies with 100% accuracy. There is an article about him on Wikipedia, so obviously he belongs here, too. His website includes a great deal of very valuable information. Note that Grover's prophecies are not just time-stamped, but are witnessed, notarized, placed in sealed envelopes, and enclosed in vacuum chambers in impenetrable granite fortresses, which are then placed in geosynchronous orbit, all prior to the foretold events occurring, which they invariably do. For example, Grover foretold the exact score of every baseball game in 2005, as well as the invention of Eggs Benedict, centuries before either of those things happen. Seriously, you can look it up.
I have added this evidence of prophecy to the article. Do not delete this, skeptics. It is evidence of prophecy that is missing from the article. Arnold1 ( talk) 16:23, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Is it just my lack of knoweldge on the subject or should it not read "Oliviaaaas sick nasttyyy" right under the "for other uses" part at the top of the page? I will remove it so tell me if I have done something wrong. 65.93.199.170
This article had passed the spam event horizon. Please review the links and reinsert only those which provide additional authoritative information over and above what a great article would contain. For example, Discover what God's Prophets and Prophetic People are Saying Daily is probably the worst excuse for a link justification imaginable. Guy ( Help!) 10:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone agree that the section headed Folk prophecy does not meet WP:N and should therefore be removed? DFH 19:35, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
"Foreknowledge" redirects to "prophesy", but the concepts are distinct. One could say that prophesy is revealed foreknowledge, but foreknowledge itself is an important and specific religious concept that should be discussed in its own article. After all it's possible to hold the worldview that prophesies do not exist but that foreknowledge does. Dianelos
"Therefore, some sceptics consider prophecy to be false" should be revised. Prophecy itself cannot be false because it is by definition the foretelling of future events. Specific prophecies can be false however, and they could all be false if none of them ever came to fruition. The problem is, even skeptics will agree that some future events have been foretold (the odds that every prophet ever to prophecy was wrong is very low). That would make these particular prophecies "not false". The disagreement comes over how the prophet receives the word that he or she speaks. A believer would say the word is from a supernatural source whereas a skeptic would say the word was from somewhere else.
"but many people believe that certain prophecies have been fulfilled". It is quite obvious that certain prophecies have been fulfilled. It is true that many people believe certain prophecies have been fulfilled, but that's only because certain prophecies have in reality been fulfilled. It should say, "Some prophecies have been fulfilled, and many people believe the prophecies to be from supernatural sources." The phrase "many people believe" is intentionally weak and should only go in places where many people also do not believe.
In other words, the truth value of prophecies is not what is under dispute but the information source is where the disagreement lies.
I would also add that 'scientific prediction' does not belong under prophecy. The two are barely related. The scientific method as well as modern logic are both described in detail in their respective articles.
-- 64.173.170.122 06:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll work off-line, and then mark up and past the lot in for review. My usual approach is to define, provide evidence, site sources where available, and link to other articles in Wikipedia. As part of the rewrite I will try to address the issues I raised in my earlier and more detailed analysis of the article, but will also take into account the comments made since then by others. -- Mrg3105 04:36, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm curious how the article on prophecy became a part of WikiProject Charismatic Christianity? Given there were at least 55 named prophets in Israel, and only one claimed by Christianity, is that not a bit of a hijacking?-- Mrg3105 11:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Wow. I'd spruce up this article but it's so bad that I'd want to scratch the entire thing and start all over again. It's silly, stupid, inaccurate, apparently written by illiterate homeschool children who should spend their time on conservapedia. It's complete and utter trash from the start to the end.
"Prophecy is the act of a person stating a truth, often regarding future events, which they have no natural means of knowing."
That's the first statement and is pretty well a microcosm of the whole thing. First off prophecy is a noun as well as a verb, there is no necessity on truth value. I could say that on January 29th, 2014 a great darkness will cover the land. And certainly that's a prophecy, but of no real regard or truth value. It's all that bad.
My suggestion is to get a reasonable definition of prophecy and replace the entire article with it. Tat 21:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The section is currently completely unsourced. The source stated as unattributed fact many claims that are subject to disputed. For example, it stated as fact that all claims of prophecy are inconsistent with empirical science. Some people believe this but some do not. Best, -- Shirahadasha 14:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Is this going to be permitted?-- Mrg3105 ( talk) 05:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Now consider the CURRENT section on Judaism:
The Jewish Tanakh (Old Testament of the Christian Bible) is there a need to insert this here?, contains prophecies from various Hebrew prophets who communicated messages from HaShem (Hebrew: 'the Name, a term for YHWH not a Jewish term, but a Christian) to the nation of Israel and population of Judea and elsewhere.
What about all the prophets BEFORE Malachi, like Moses! Malachi's full name was Ezra Ha'Sofer (the scribe), and he was the last prophet of Israel if one accepts the opinion that Nechemyah died in Babylon before 9th Tevet 3448 (313 BCE). Babylonian Talmud, vol. San.11a, Yom.9a/Yuch.1.14/Kuz.3.39,65,67/Yuch.1/Mag.Av.O.C.580.6
[edit] Book of Enoch prophecy
Around the time of the Maccabees, ~150 BC, a Jewish prophet left a 108 chapter book of prophecies. It is the largest source of prophecies relating to the End of an Age (End of Time) This is a Christian favourite . BECAUSE It is quoted or referred to in the New Testament.
Consider the proportionality of this article in terms of POV. 55 recorded Jewish prophets vs one claim by Christianity and one by Islam. One woudl think that there would a least be proportionate treatment in the article content?
Consider the introduction:
In Western religion, prophecy (from Greek, "before-speech") is the divine gift of speaking the truth, especially about the future. One who speaks prophecy is called a prophet. The meaning and understanding of prophecy varies by culture and history.
These are entirely Christian views of prophecy. Hebrew prophets lived at a time when there were no Greeks to record anything, and for a significant time when Greeks had no writing. Certainly before a "Western" conception of prophecy. Certainly it does not reflect the Jewish view that prophecy is NOT about either JUST speaking the truth, OR about the future.
Prophecy often consisted of a warning that God's wrath would destroy the people if they disobeyed God or did not repent'. Repenting is something a Christian might do Prophecies sometimes included promises of blessing for obeying God or repenting. Warning prophecies feature in Jewish scripture (Elijah,Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.) Actually they feature in the Torah also and in the Christian New Testament (John the Baptist, Jesus, etc.)'Yet more Christian references Prophecies sometimes foretell the coming of a divine figure, such as Jesus AND AGAIN, or appear in apocalyptic literatureAND AGAIN, such as Daniel or Revelation AND AGAIN, because MISINTERPRETATION of Daniel is a significant part of Christian apocalyptic literature in the 20th century.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DEFINITION AND PROCESS OF PROPHECY THAT I ADDED? Does one have to be an administrator and lock down the articles because of religious marketing that goes on?
Lastly the only source provided is
and in See also is there any mention of Judaism? (Christian subjects in bold)
Why yes, he is listed in an disambiguation page along with two bands and an Iraq war protester as
# Malachi, the supposed name of the author of the Book of Malachi in the Jewish Bible. Which actually denies his being a prophet and misplaces him from the
Tanakh to
Books of Moses.
I think this is just a very clear case of
Antisemitism in Wikipedia
And if you go to the
Prophet article you will see the same effort. Sections on Christianity are exaggerated, and those on Judaism abbreviated and had to be redirected to Tanakh, and even there a section on Christian literature was inserted. And mind you, the article on Prophet STILL does not talk about the individuals, so much as the beliefs held about them by their followers!
This entire section was removed:
Definition of Prophecy is a
instrument of
social change, predominantly in the
ancient societies through
communication delivered usually by an
individual prophet,
male or
female, usually
orally to a large
group. Its
purpose is that of
changing the group’s current
intentions,
behaviours,
cultural or
social
practice or
structure to
conform to
standards
demanded by a
Divine power accepted as the
source of
Universal creation of all
knowledge,
energy and
matter.
As a result of the prophetic message, the
consequences of the change not taking place may be included in the message in the form of
positive or
negative
effects on the society as a whole, groups within the society, specific
communities, or individuals and their immediate
relatives,
friends or
employees.
Prophecy is either
self-evident due to the change in the individuals
physiology or behaviour, or
claimed as a
gifted ability from a
Divine
source which is usually followed by a display in the change in the individuals
physiology or behaviour.
So typical is the change described above, that it is the most often witnessed display by individuals seeking to imitate prophetic phenomena, sometimes as displays of quasi-
psychotic episodes and often through extreme
kinesiological or
verbal
displays.
A prophet can be
true or
false, and may be tested as such by the group to
verify his or her
authenticity. The prophet does not
seek prophecy, the ability being an
unexpected and sometimes disturbing
mental
phenomena, and the group rarely desires its communication due to its unwanted
content. Prophecy may be acquired spontaneously, or over a short time, at any age usually after early teenage-hood, in any lifestyle environment, to individuals in any profession or position within the society. The only prerequisite for being chosen as a prophetic messenger is the individual’s ability to satisfy the selection criteria of the Divine that is gifting the ability. Usually this is enshrined in absolute adherence to the highest standards of faith in the said Divine power.
At the core of the
viability of the prophecy is the element of
uncertainty usually found in the content. The content of the prophetic message may contain information of one or more types that are understood through
explicit
literal
interpretation,
suggestive analysis based on a
degree of
literary interpretation,
allusive through use of
mental imagery,
similes,
metaphors and
allegories, or
implicit requiring extensive and
complex
data analysis. For this reason, prophetic messages are difficult to authenticate immediately at the time of their delivery. This denies the receiver the ability to attempt to
micro-manage
events while seeking to avoid the effects of the prophecy.
The life of the prophet may be an eventful one because the group, or its
elite, may seek to
persecute,
exile,
incarcerate or
execute the
messenger in the attempt to eliminate the source of the
message that may be countering their own intended
actions,
decisions, or
policies.
The
uniqueness of the prophetic
experience is the
ability of the messenger to foretell the consequences for the group should the message’s content not be heeded.
At the
core of the prophetic
concept is therefore the
society’s
acceptance of the higher
Divine and
Supreme power that is able to enact
supernatural
events beyond the
control of the society in which prophecy is taking place, and which can not be
predicted by
reason,
calculation of
probability or
historical analysis. Therefore, prophecy cannot be compared to
methodologies used as part of
scientific reasoning, calculation of probability or historic analysis in
disciplines such as
engineering,
social psychology,
public health,
meteorology,
Earth sciences,
governance or
economics.
It is reasonable to suggest that prophecy may not take place in a society which does not accept the Divine source of the prophetic content as the supreme Universal authority over nature’s understood and accepted laws, and understood and expected behaviour of society’s own and other societies behaviours.
It is therefore
simplistic to say that prophecy is the ability to foretell the
future.
Scepticism of prophecy is therefore founded on the basis of:
a)
objective
criteria
specific to the
system of faith within which it occurs
b) the
evidence that
substantiates the content of the prophecy
c) the society’s evidential willingness to accept a
higher authority over that of its chosen human individual or elite group exercising governance over it
d) the willingness to
deny prophecy through acceptance of
statistically
improbable
occurrences as inconsequential
e) the subjective
comparative methods by which it is being authenticated by various modern
methodologies used as part of
scientific reasoning, calculation of probability or historic analysis
Prophecy should not be confused with
divination,
premonition, or
fortune telling
defined elsewhere in
Wikipedia.
Why was it removed? Why, of course because there is no mention of any specific religion since it talks about the CONCEPT of prophecy as an introduction to the subject of the article in a
non-POV and
neutral way! It failed the
marketing of Christianity test.
--
Mrg3105 (
talk) 23:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you and action should be taken. If your edits get reverted, bring it up with an independent administrator.
What is the subject of the article? Prophecy is neither defined nor explained in the article as it stand now with all my content removed. It largely deals with Record of prophecy in recounting alleged historical figures. No mention of the Hebrew Bible and Tanakh prophecies is made at all although they span the longest period of prophetic culture.-- Mrg3105 ( talk) 05:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
There is no prophecy in Islam. Reiteration of Old Testament prophecy cannot legitimately be claimed as Islamic prophecy and unless sources can be provided in a timely fashion for the claims of original prophecy, all mention of prophecy on behalf of Islam should be removed from this article. DRosenbach ( Talk | Contribs) 22:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I slightly modified the section on Christianity. In my experience, I would say that the Mormon church is a separate entity from the main stream Christian church so I have created a new subsection for it.
I have also altered the link for the five fold gifting relating to Apostles. In this instance, this does not relate to the twelve apostle. I was surprised to find that there was not actual section on Apostles. Paulrach ( talk) 21:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
1) Judaism's claim is to have invented prophecy -- is this contested? If not, how can it be defined ouside the parameters of Judaism? If, for instance, Judaism defines prophecy as exclusively A and, by definition, not B, how can it be that others come along afterwards to alter the definition yet maintain the link to the essence of original prophecy?
2) Reiteration of previous prophecy is hardly a claim to divine revelation. In fact, recapitulation serves to do nothing but support one's claim that he read the original sources and is aware of the original prophecy. The New Testament makes no claim whatsoever that God spoke to Jesus. Where is the evidence that prophecy occurred? DRosenbach ( Talk | Contribs) 12:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Consider a definition from here [4]. There is no "Mystical Theology" in Jewish sources.
In connection with your recent edit to the prophecy article. I'm not sure were to post, here or on the article.
The wikipedia definition of prophecy is: prophecy is the divine gift of speaking the truth, especially about the future. So by that definition, any fortune telling could be included! However, in terms of a broad based article on prophecy, not including modern day examples of Christian prophecy will give a biased and insignificant article. The people who gave the prophecies to Reagan and Bush believed they were hearing from God in much the same way as did the prophets of the Old Testament/Tanakh. The examples that were quoted were legitimate and referenced examples of prophecy in the modern church. Whether or not you define them as legitimate is irrelevant, they happened.
Should we remove references to Nostradamus? He was not religious, and could be described as a fortune teller. Personally, I think not. We are looking to create a balanced article here.
In driving the quality of this article forward, do we need to have sub-articles? Eg Christian Prophecy, Judaic Prophecy, Pagan prophecy etc? In the modern Christian church there are two main strands in connection with prophecy: (1) those that are waiting for the end times and using OT prophecies.(2) those that use and encourage prophecy in the church today. As I can only legitimately comment with confidence on Christian tradition, I am not sure what other belief system require.
The two references that you removed had been on the article for quite a while, all I did was find the references and tidy up the language. Personally I had never heard of the two 'prophets' in question, so don't have an agenda here. I just think that there inclusion is legitimate in presenting a balanced view point. Paulrach ( talk) 12:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
credibility to the article as a whole.
These are very interesting claims. Do you have any sources for them? "Prophecy" is a contemporary subject and phenomenon, and in general religious subjects, the realities of contemporary scholarship and Wikipedia's approach are such that, generally speaking, what the Hebrew Bible (and Judaism) has to say is a significant opinion, but nonetheless one opinion among many (and there are often multiple opinions about what they have to say). It's important to recognize when our logic is representing a potential tautology. If we narrow the definition of "prophecy" to reflect only the characteristic practices of the Biblical prophets, then of course only the Biblical prophets qualify for that term. In an article on Judaism it would be entirely appropriate to use such a definition exclusively. But in a general religion article other opinions have to be taken into account in determining the appropriate scope of the term. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 17:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Have updated the section on the New Testament as it was quite unreadable. Have spilt it into logical sections that relate more fully to the appropriate sections of the NT.
Still to do in this section:
Paulrach ( talk) 14:59, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Bahá'í Faith is not related to Islam or a subset of Islam. Someone with little understanding of world religions as added this to the wrong section. But as this is article has now been blocked no one can correct this! Paulrach ( talk) 05:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
"is said to have translated golden plates through divine revelation by the spirit" - how is divine revelation by the spirit different from the divine revelation?-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 07:06, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I read Paulrach's comments on the Christianity project page and then reviewed the recent history. mrg3105, it appears a little heavy handed to semiprotect this page. What was your reasoning for it? We generally do not evade cooperative efforts by using semiprotect or protects on pages. I would hope you would review your logic here and then revert yourself.
I appreciate your efforts to request references, but it should have gone farther. This article has few references given the topic and it makes some pretty sweeping claims. For example, on the Joseph Smith section it states, "there is no record of his experience of prophecy". Who wrote that and from what position of expertise? The whole article makes broad states without few reputable references; quote or use experts in the field when making sweeping statements or delete them. -- Storm Rider (talk) 07:57, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
The protect was only there to prevent all and sundry IPs from editing (as it explains in the template page), and not registered users. I'm sorry if the one particular user through inexperience was not aware of this. I would appreciate if the pp-protect was replaced.
I had previously extensively explained at length why this seemingly generic article name only relates to the experience of prophecy in the talk page.
Essentially one has to read the (in this case) the Bible to appreciate my arguments, but the particular User:Paulrach may not have realised that the Bible, at least the Hebrew version from the Jewish perspective, is all prophecy, as is much of Tanakh! The New Testament is also claimed to be prophetic, as is the Quaran, and other scriptures. In other words, the contents of these scriptures are a record of prophecy that include the identification of the Source (God in the Judeo-Christian scriptures), the experience of being a prophet or prophetess (a list of 55 in the Jewish case), and the record itself (the various oral and written records).
Therefore prophecy is not just about the content of prophecy, i.e. the text, and specifically "foretelling future".
If the widest scope of definition of prophecy is applied to the article as suggested, the entire contents of the Hebrew Tanakh which is attributed to the prophets recognised as such in Judaism can conceivable be reproduced in the prophecy article!
For this reason, I suggested that there are in fact many articles in Wikipedia that exist which link to the prophecy article, but are about the record of, claims of or beliefs in prophecy, and not the prophecy itself, which is a human experience of the phenomena of interaction with the Source.
Even the experience of prophecy itself needs to be trimmed to manageable proportions for the purpose of a reference work article since the biographies of all prophets can not clearly be included in the one article, and can only be linked to the articles dealing with their lives.
What other editors will have a problem with, is that most non-Jewish records of prophecy are largely lacking the description of prophecy as a process. There are many religious systems where this is the core principle of belief. This is extensively discussed by Rambam (I'm sure you are aware).
My attempt to restrict the article content to the experience of prophecy is, as I see it based on past experience with editing this article, is in the need to keep the article content manageable, and adhering to Wikipedia standards. I am quite willing to add any content or include links to any pages that relate to anything other users may seem fit to be linked to prophecy, including claims or, record of, belief in, etc., and I had created an article from a large and entirely unreferenced section of the prophecy article which was added spuriously, and is now listed for speedy deletion. No comment had been added to the article talk page since 4.4.2008. Previous entries added to the article which I watched over a period of 6 months included links to occult, divination, obscure individuals, statements of personal beliefs, and other content I can only call a miscellanea, usually unreferenced, or linked to highly biases online sites.
If you find this argument unjustified, be prepared to conduct substantial re-edits, nay, wholesale rewriting of the article every six months, as I am doing now.-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 22:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, statements that express belief, like this "From this many Christians believe..." do not belong here, but in the article on Christians or Christianity because it is impossible to derive anything about prophecy from what people believe it is.-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 22:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I would like to understand how the following explains anything about prophecy:
In the Christian New Testament prophecy is often referred as one of the fivefold ministries or spiritual gifts that accompany the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. From this many Christians believe that prophecy is the supernatural ability to receive and convey a message from God or the divine. The purpose of the message may be to edify, exhort and comfort the body of Christ or an individual believer. In this context, not all prophecies contain predictions about the future. The Apostle Paul also teaches in Corinthians that prophecy is for the benefit of the whole Church and not just the individual exercising the gift. [2]
""The Apostle Paul also teaches in Corinthians that prophecy is for the benefit of the whole Church and not just the individual exercising the gift." - I am somewhat confused. We seem to agree on the definition that all prophecy emanates from a Divine Source. How can "the individual exercising the gift"? In any case, Corinthians 14:22 is taken completely out of context based on the Isa 28:11 to which it refers to unwillingness to learn the Torah by Isaiah's contemporaries to the point at which it became as a foreign tongue
9. Whom shall he teach knowledge and to whom shall he explain the message? To those weaned from milk, removed from breasts? 10. For a precept for a precept, a precept for a precept, a line for a line, a line for a line, a little there, a little there. 11. For with distorted speech and in another language, does he speak to this people. 12. For he said to them, "This is the rest; give rest to the weary, and this is the tranquility," but they would not listen. 13. And the word of the Lord shall be for them a precept for a precept, a precept for a precept, a line for a line, a line for a line, a little there, a little there, in order that they go and stumble backwards and be broken, and be trapped and caught.
Hence the 1 Corinthians 14:21 says
In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.
and in Corinthians 14:22
Therefore other languages are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to the unbelieving; but prophesying is for a sign, not to the unbelieving, but to those who believe.(World English Bible translation)
( Note: prophesying in this case refers tot he prophecy of Moses, i.e. the "knowledge" from Isa. 28:9 and "the word of the Lord" from Isa. 28:13)
So the reference is not to prophecy at all because the translation is taken out of context. It really means - it is pointless teaching those who do not want to be taught, because to them the language in which the teaching is being delivered will seem like a foreign language. The popular English expression to this is "Its all Greek to me", derived from Shakespeare.
The line was first spoken by Casca, one of the conspirators against Caesar in the first act of 'Julius Caesar.' He was speaking of the comments made by Cicero after Caesar three times refused the crown of emperor. Cicero actually did speak in Greek, using that language as a device to make sure that casual passers-by did not understand his remarks. Today the expression 'It's all Greek to me' simply means that what has been said is beyond the speaker's understanding." From "Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins" by William and Mary Morris (HarperCollins, New York, 1977, 1988). http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/4/messages/1274.html
-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 00:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I also tend to see no basis for limiting the scope of this article to "the experience of prophecy" or removing material based on such a limit. There has been no consensus for such a limit, and it seems inconsistent with dictionary definitions etc. Because the naming conventions guideline says to use the ordinary English meaning of article titles, and specifically suggests using dictionaries in case of disagreement, the dictionary meaning of "prophecy" would seem to be the default basis for the article's scope in the absence of consensus otherwise. It seems to me that Christian beliefs about the nature and meaning of prophecy, experientially based or not, are relevant to this article and I see no basis for deleting them except for claims that particular content is original research and not verifiable (or is a tiny minority view that doesn't fairly or neutrally represent mainstream Christianity). Disagreement with the Christian view or a claim that it is wrong or makes no sense is simply not a basis for removing content. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 16:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
What is the use of saying that ‘Many hands make light work’ when the same copy-book tells you that ‘Too many cooks spoil the broth’? (1923 Observer 11 Feb. 9)
.
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![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Here are some tasks you can do:
-- Mrg3105 09:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The parts below are taken from unedited body of the article.
"In many religions, gods or other supernatural agents are thought to sometimes provide prophecies to certain individuals, sometimes known as prophets, by dreams or visions. The Tanakh, the Old Testament of the Bible, contains prophecies from various Hebrew prophets who spoke judgement upon the Israelites, foretold of their impending trials, tribulations, and then promised divine blessings if the Hebrews repented from their evil ways. The Book of Revelation in the New Testament is accepted by many Christians as a prophecy that includes divine promises of a anointed messiah or Christ that would lead the people in war and personally issue judgement at the end times and Armageddon (see Eschatology, Bible prophecy and "End of the World")."
In any case Jesus had not achieved the vast majority of prophecies attributed to him. He is called 'son of God' by the decree of the Christian dogma. Almost no one in general society calls Jesus 'son of God' these days.-- Mrg3105 02:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a direct reference to Christianity, and how it defines prophecy. However this post-dates the Jewish definition and has to be reflected accordingly lest the reader be confused in thinking that this is shared by other faiths.-- Mrg3105 02:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
This seeks to describe ‘power of prophecy’ while the evidence has not been provided. Considering that Jewish understanding maintains that prophecy is no longer possible, it is pointless to suggest that science is incapable of attesting to it without examining the arguments to the contrary! In fact this is a new topic in the article.-- Mrg3105 02:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following recent addition:
The second sentence is POV, so it needs to be removed. The first sentence, although true, doesn't add anything to the description of prophecy, although with a good link (wiki or otherwise) I think it could go back in. - UtherSRG 13:11, 23 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Thanks. I knew there'd be a good link for it, but I know there's a ton of Christianity and Jesus articles.
I was wondering about the following,
Prophecy is a poor guide to the future. You don't understand the events until they are already you, or have already occured.
Would that be accurate to say about prophecy?
JesseG 03:32, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The first paragraph of the History of Prophecy section seems a bit unlikely to me, perhaps examples would make it make more sense or names of schools of prophecy or something that would explain how they survived from 400 to 1800 without many knowing of it.
I think the page could use statistics of religions involving prophecies and how many people follow these religions. The point would be to show that many people (possibly the majority of the world) buy into some sort of prophecy.
I was wondering about starting an article on End Times prophecies and the Signs of the Times. Such an article might discuss what the prophets have projected as end times scenarios, and how fulfillments might or are being interpreted. Can somebody more familiar with this area in Wikipedia give me a clue? Tom 18:11, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Maybe take a look at Christian eschatology, Jewish eschatology, etc.? "Eschatology" is the "study of last things," sounds like what you're looking for. Wesley 17:14, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
User:Gtrmp has placed a banner urging a merge with the entry Prophet. The confusion between the two in some Christian cults is not an issue for the rest of us. It has no basis in the history of ideas.
Though I must not characterize it, the section Nature of reality in prophecy really does not represent any mainstream concept. How can this folk-culture be presented at Wikipedia in a genuinely neutral manner, which also discusses the cultural context from which these ideas have arisen? -- Wetman 03:14, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The zany additions from a couple of anonymous ISPs June 19 and 20, 2004, were made by a User who hasn't returned. Couldn't we just revert and move forward again more sensibly than by giving the prophecy-school curriculum as of 7500 B.C. etc etc? -- Wetman 14:16, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
even though prohpecies aren't understood until they happen, they have influence on the veiw taken on the events that occured. it creates insight into what we would otherwise never understand.
How does the section "Nature of reality in prophecy" belong in Wikipedia? This is a personal fantasy, contributed by Anonymous User:4.225.197.202 back in June 2004, which has stood in the article long enough. I have moved it here for your perusal, as part of the requested "Clean-up":
-- Wetman 08:49, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I meant to move it here but lost the contents of my clipboard. My bad. Please see history if you want to it. - Trick 23:10, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The following was so completely unread I had to move it here:
Historical evidence of prophecy claims dates back to the Tibetans and societies in the Himalayan regions, where monks spoke of future events.
The Egyptian prophets and divinators were highly revered in their society, as they helped the Pharaohs make decisions to deal with the daily activities of their people. Many Egyptian murals can still be found depicting these seers advising the Pharaohs.
The Chaldean prophets and astrologers were so renowned that if a Chaldean person was found to be traveling outside of Chaldea, they were automatically thought to be able to prophesize and read the stars.
The Greek Oracles were visited by people from all over the ancient world. The Oracles used a variety of techniques to induce the prophetic trance, that included sitting in hot springs caves, dancing, singing, and meditation. The Delphic seer in particular was known as the "eyes and ears of God".
The Roman historian Pompeius Trogus declared that the Celts excelled at prophecy when reading from the Akashic Records and the stars. On his way to Rome, St. Malachy (Maelmaedhog Ua Morgair) fell into a trance and uttered prophecies about every pope from 1143CE to the end of the Catholic Church.
Tibet: not understanding the cyclical nature of events an uncomprehending outsider might imagine "prophecy." Egypt: part of a priest's role was interpreting the will of the gods. There was an oracle at Ammon but priests were not prophesying. Chaldean: This is in Victorian Bible books. Delphi: ""eyes and ears of God" an invention. "God" is a giveaway. You can't begin at this level and reach any kind of adult text. -- Wetman 20:25, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The main page has a sentence that starts, "About 40% of the text of the Bible is the actual Word of God or prophecies". This is somewhat misleading, as it says something different than what most Christians mean when they use the phrase, "the Word of God". All the Reformed Confessions (along with most fundamentalists) are emphatic that the whole of the Bible is the Word of God, and that includes all the parts which are narrative history and comment on events, etc. I suspect that whoever wrote this sentence intended to mean that about 40% of the text is set out in the form of God speaking. If so, the wording should be altered to reflect that. DFH 17:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
The sentence, "That dream or vision based ability includes foreseeing healthful solutions to ailments, and several other abilities, all of which were 'lost' by Romans taking over the religious control of the early church." is an unsubstantiated POV statement, which has no place in an encyclopedia page. I am about to delete it. DFH 17:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
The sentence in the main page, "The Bible itself is a long series of prophecies, written by people inspired by God from their dreams and visions." is inaccurate both as a description of the Bible and as a theory about the "how" of Biblical prophecies. Only a relatively small fraction of Bible prophecies are set out as having come through dreams and/or visions. Obvious examples are parts of the Book of Daniel and the whole of the Book of Revelation. The major part of prophetic writings in the Bible are not so described in the Biblical text, and it is misleading to report that they are. There is no single method whereby Bible prophecies were given, but rather there is considerable variety in time and place as to how the prophecies were received. This whole section needs a rewrite by someone who really knows the subject. DFH 17:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
The external links section is becoming too large (I suspect many of these links are merely vanity advertising or hobby-horses). Moreover, none of them have even the briefest of descriptions to indicate why the particular link should be of interest or relevance to the main article. Those who posted the links should review them asap, otherwise someone is likely to start to prune most of them in the near future. DFH 13:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
-I'm deleting the following:
• Thiaoouba Prophecy - does not deal with prophecy
• Elijah List - does not deal with prophecy, but rather with an online community
• The Celestine Prophecy - new age work of fiction
• I Ching - belongs in the divination article, or maybe Chinese philosophy
• Akashic Records - does not deal with prophecy
• Cassandra - a misinterpretation of the Greek text which actually deals with Precognition
-- Mrg3105 06:42, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Seriously, wasn't this artical deleted before? Why has it reappeared? What is it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.61.220.143 ( talk) 00:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC).
I don't think it should be deleted, altho it has no citation, i've been monitoring this topic very closely, and no matter how many times it's deleted it just keeps coming back . . .
In the section entitled Scientific prediction it says:
... the implication being that non-scientific prophecies necessarily always come true. I'm afraid I don't believe this. What about all the date-specific "end of the world" prophecies that have failed to materialize? - 84.65.12.158 19:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
You cannot have an article about prophecy without also mentioning Sollog. He has made many prophecies that have come true and the evidence for this is stored on Google. He has issued time stamped prophecies on Google such as this one :
http://sollogs.com/911warning.html
That was about 911. The date shows it was made 3 years to the day before 911. The date stamp is genuine. So shouldn't this be included in this article?
There are more examples of his prophecies on his website.
There is also an article about him on Wikipedia. If he is notable enough to be included on Wikipedia then why no mention of him in this article?
Arnold1 06:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, Grover from Sesame Street made some astounding prophecies with 100% accuracy. There is an article about him on Wikipedia, so obviously he belongs here, too. His website includes a great deal of very valuable information. Note that Grover's prophecies are not just time-stamped, but are witnessed, notarized, placed in sealed envelopes, and enclosed in vacuum chambers in impenetrable granite fortresses, which are then placed in geosynchronous orbit, all prior to the foretold events occurring, which they invariably do. For example, Grover foretold the exact score of every baseball game in 2005, as well as the invention of Eggs Benedict, centuries before either of those things happen. Seriously, you can look it up.
I have added this evidence of prophecy to the article. Do not delete this, skeptics. It is evidence of prophecy that is missing from the article. Arnold1 ( talk) 16:23, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Is it just my lack of knoweldge on the subject or should it not read "Oliviaaaas sick nasttyyy" right under the "for other uses" part at the top of the page? I will remove it so tell me if I have done something wrong. 65.93.199.170
This article had passed the spam event horizon. Please review the links and reinsert only those which provide additional authoritative information over and above what a great article would contain. For example, Discover what God's Prophets and Prophetic People are Saying Daily is probably the worst excuse for a link justification imaginable. Guy ( Help!) 10:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone agree that the section headed Folk prophecy does not meet WP:N and should therefore be removed? DFH 19:35, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
"Foreknowledge" redirects to "prophesy", but the concepts are distinct. One could say that prophesy is revealed foreknowledge, but foreknowledge itself is an important and specific religious concept that should be discussed in its own article. After all it's possible to hold the worldview that prophesies do not exist but that foreknowledge does. Dianelos
"Therefore, some sceptics consider prophecy to be false" should be revised. Prophecy itself cannot be false because it is by definition the foretelling of future events. Specific prophecies can be false however, and they could all be false if none of them ever came to fruition. The problem is, even skeptics will agree that some future events have been foretold (the odds that every prophet ever to prophecy was wrong is very low). That would make these particular prophecies "not false". The disagreement comes over how the prophet receives the word that he or she speaks. A believer would say the word is from a supernatural source whereas a skeptic would say the word was from somewhere else.
"but many people believe that certain prophecies have been fulfilled". It is quite obvious that certain prophecies have been fulfilled. It is true that many people believe certain prophecies have been fulfilled, but that's only because certain prophecies have in reality been fulfilled. It should say, "Some prophecies have been fulfilled, and many people believe the prophecies to be from supernatural sources." The phrase "many people believe" is intentionally weak and should only go in places where many people also do not believe.
In other words, the truth value of prophecies is not what is under dispute but the information source is where the disagreement lies.
I would also add that 'scientific prediction' does not belong under prophecy. The two are barely related. The scientific method as well as modern logic are both described in detail in their respective articles.
-- 64.173.170.122 06:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll work off-line, and then mark up and past the lot in for review. My usual approach is to define, provide evidence, site sources where available, and link to other articles in Wikipedia. As part of the rewrite I will try to address the issues I raised in my earlier and more detailed analysis of the article, but will also take into account the comments made since then by others. -- Mrg3105 04:36, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm curious how the article on prophecy became a part of WikiProject Charismatic Christianity? Given there were at least 55 named prophets in Israel, and only one claimed by Christianity, is that not a bit of a hijacking?-- Mrg3105 11:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Wow. I'd spruce up this article but it's so bad that I'd want to scratch the entire thing and start all over again. It's silly, stupid, inaccurate, apparently written by illiterate homeschool children who should spend their time on conservapedia. It's complete and utter trash from the start to the end.
"Prophecy is the act of a person stating a truth, often regarding future events, which they have no natural means of knowing."
That's the first statement and is pretty well a microcosm of the whole thing. First off prophecy is a noun as well as a verb, there is no necessity on truth value. I could say that on January 29th, 2014 a great darkness will cover the land. And certainly that's a prophecy, but of no real regard or truth value. It's all that bad.
My suggestion is to get a reasonable definition of prophecy and replace the entire article with it. Tat 21:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The section is currently completely unsourced. The source stated as unattributed fact many claims that are subject to disputed. For example, it stated as fact that all claims of prophecy are inconsistent with empirical science. Some people believe this but some do not. Best, -- Shirahadasha 14:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Is this going to be permitted?-- Mrg3105 ( talk) 05:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Now consider the CURRENT section on Judaism:
The Jewish Tanakh (Old Testament of the Christian Bible) is there a need to insert this here?, contains prophecies from various Hebrew prophets who communicated messages from HaShem (Hebrew: 'the Name, a term for YHWH not a Jewish term, but a Christian) to the nation of Israel and population of Judea and elsewhere.
What about all the prophets BEFORE Malachi, like Moses! Malachi's full name was Ezra Ha'Sofer (the scribe), and he was the last prophet of Israel if one accepts the opinion that Nechemyah died in Babylon before 9th Tevet 3448 (313 BCE). Babylonian Talmud, vol. San.11a, Yom.9a/Yuch.1.14/Kuz.3.39,65,67/Yuch.1/Mag.Av.O.C.580.6
[edit] Book of Enoch prophecy
Around the time of the Maccabees, ~150 BC, a Jewish prophet left a 108 chapter book of prophecies. It is the largest source of prophecies relating to the End of an Age (End of Time) This is a Christian favourite . BECAUSE It is quoted or referred to in the New Testament.
Consider the proportionality of this article in terms of POV. 55 recorded Jewish prophets vs one claim by Christianity and one by Islam. One woudl think that there would a least be proportionate treatment in the article content?
Consider the introduction:
In Western religion, prophecy (from Greek, "before-speech") is the divine gift of speaking the truth, especially about the future. One who speaks prophecy is called a prophet. The meaning and understanding of prophecy varies by culture and history.
These are entirely Christian views of prophecy. Hebrew prophets lived at a time when there were no Greeks to record anything, and for a significant time when Greeks had no writing. Certainly before a "Western" conception of prophecy. Certainly it does not reflect the Jewish view that prophecy is NOT about either JUST speaking the truth, OR about the future.
Prophecy often consisted of a warning that God's wrath would destroy the people if they disobeyed God or did not repent'. Repenting is something a Christian might do Prophecies sometimes included promises of blessing for obeying God or repenting. Warning prophecies feature in Jewish scripture (Elijah,Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.) Actually they feature in the Torah also and in the Christian New Testament (John the Baptist, Jesus, etc.)'Yet more Christian references Prophecies sometimes foretell the coming of a divine figure, such as Jesus AND AGAIN, or appear in apocalyptic literatureAND AGAIN, such as Daniel or Revelation AND AGAIN, because MISINTERPRETATION of Daniel is a significant part of Christian apocalyptic literature in the 20th century.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE DEFINITION AND PROCESS OF PROPHECY THAT I ADDED? Does one have to be an administrator and lock down the articles because of religious marketing that goes on?
Lastly the only source provided is
and in See also is there any mention of Judaism? (Christian subjects in bold)
Why yes, he is listed in an disambiguation page along with two bands and an Iraq war protester as
# Malachi, the supposed name of the author of the Book of Malachi in the Jewish Bible. Which actually denies his being a prophet and misplaces him from the
Tanakh to
Books of Moses.
I think this is just a very clear case of
Antisemitism in Wikipedia
And if you go to the
Prophet article you will see the same effort. Sections on Christianity are exaggerated, and those on Judaism abbreviated and had to be redirected to Tanakh, and even there a section on Christian literature was inserted. And mind you, the article on Prophet STILL does not talk about the individuals, so much as the beliefs held about them by their followers!
This entire section was removed:
Definition of Prophecy is a
instrument of
social change, predominantly in the
ancient societies through
communication delivered usually by an
individual prophet,
male or
female, usually
orally to a large
group. Its
purpose is that of
changing the group’s current
intentions,
behaviours,
cultural or
social
practice or
structure to
conform to
standards
demanded by a
Divine power accepted as the
source of
Universal creation of all
knowledge,
energy and
matter.
As a result of the prophetic message, the
consequences of the change not taking place may be included in the message in the form of
positive or
negative
effects on the society as a whole, groups within the society, specific
communities, or individuals and their immediate
relatives,
friends or
employees.
Prophecy is either
self-evident due to the change in the individuals
physiology or behaviour, or
claimed as a
gifted ability from a
Divine
source which is usually followed by a display in the change in the individuals
physiology or behaviour.
So typical is the change described above, that it is the most often witnessed display by individuals seeking to imitate prophetic phenomena, sometimes as displays of quasi-
psychotic episodes and often through extreme
kinesiological or
verbal
displays.
A prophet can be
true or
false, and may be tested as such by the group to
verify his or her
authenticity. The prophet does not
seek prophecy, the ability being an
unexpected and sometimes disturbing
mental
phenomena, and the group rarely desires its communication due to its unwanted
content. Prophecy may be acquired spontaneously, or over a short time, at any age usually after early teenage-hood, in any lifestyle environment, to individuals in any profession or position within the society. The only prerequisite for being chosen as a prophetic messenger is the individual’s ability to satisfy the selection criteria of the Divine that is gifting the ability. Usually this is enshrined in absolute adherence to the highest standards of faith in the said Divine power.
At the core of the
viability of the prophecy is the element of
uncertainty usually found in the content. The content of the prophetic message may contain information of one or more types that are understood through
explicit
literal
interpretation,
suggestive analysis based on a
degree of
literary interpretation,
allusive through use of
mental imagery,
similes,
metaphors and
allegories, or
implicit requiring extensive and
complex
data analysis. For this reason, prophetic messages are difficult to authenticate immediately at the time of their delivery. This denies the receiver the ability to attempt to
micro-manage
events while seeking to avoid the effects of the prophecy.
The life of the prophet may be an eventful one because the group, or its
elite, may seek to
persecute,
exile,
incarcerate or
execute the
messenger in the attempt to eliminate the source of the
message that may be countering their own intended
actions,
decisions, or
policies.
The
uniqueness of the prophetic
experience is the
ability of the messenger to foretell the consequences for the group should the message’s content not be heeded.
At the
core of the prophetic
concept is therefore the
society’s
acceptance of the higher
Divine and
Supreme power that is able to enact
supernatural
events beyond the
control of the society in which prophecy is taking place, and which can not be
predicted by
reason,
calculation of
probability or
historical analysis. Therefore, prophecy cannot be compared to
methodologies used as part of
scientific reasoning, calculation of probability or historic analysis in
disciplines such as
engineering,
social psychology,
public health,
meteorology,
Earth sciences,
governance or
economics.
It is reasonable to suggest that prophecy may not take place in a society which does not accept the Divine source of the prophetic content as the supreme Universal authority over nature’s understood and accepted laws, and understood and expected behaviour of society’s own and other societies behaviours.
It is therefore
simplistic to say that prophecy is the ability to foretell the
future.
Scepticism of prophecy is therefore founded on the basis of:
a)
objective
criteria
specific to the
system of faith within which it occurs
b) the
evidence that
substantiates the content of the prophecy
c) the society’s evidential willingness to accept a
higher authority over that of its chosen human individual or elite group exercising governance over it
d) the willingness to
deny prophecy through acceptance of
statistically
improbable
occurrences as inconsequential
e) the subjective
comparative methods by which it is being authenticated by various modern
methodologies used as part of
scientific reasoning, calculation of probability or historic analysis
Prophecy should not be confused with
divination,
premonition, or
fortune telling
defined elsewhere in
Wikipedia.
Why was it removed? Why, of course because there is no mention of any specific religion since it talks about the CONCEPT of prophecy as an introduction to the subject of the article in a
non-POV and
neutral way! It failed the
marketing of Christianity test.
--
Mrg3105 (
talk) 23:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you and action should be taken. If your edits get reverted, bring it up with an independent administrator.
What is the subject of the article? Prophecy is neither defined nor explained in the article as it stand now with all my content removed. It largely deals with Record of prophecy in recounting alleged historical figures. No mention of the Hebrew Bible and Tanakh prophecies is made at all although they span the longest period of prophetic culture.-- Mrg3105 ( talk) 05:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
There is no prophecy in Islam. Reiteration of Old Testament prophecy cannot legitimately be claimed as Islamic prophecy and unless sources can be provided in a timely fashion for the claims of original prophecy, all mention of prophecy on behalf of Islam should be removed from this article. DRosenbach ( Talk | Contribs) 22:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I slightly modified the section on Christianity. In my experience, I would say that the Mormon church is a separate entity from the main stream Christian church so I have created a new subsection for it.
I have also altered the link for the five fold gifting relating to Apostles. In this instance, this does not relate to the twelve apostle. I was surprised to find that there was not actual section on Apostles. Paulrach ( talk) 21:02, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
1) Judaism's claim is to have invented prophecy -- is this contested? If not, how can it be defined ouside the parameters of Judaism? If, for instance, Judaism defines prophecy as exclusively A and, by definition, not B, how can it be that others come along afterwards to alter the definition yet maintain the link to the essence of original prophecy?
2) Reiteration of previous prophecy is hardly a claim to divine revelation. In fact, recapitulation serves to do nothing but support one's claim that he read the original sources and is aware of the original prophecy. The New Testament makes no claim whatsoever that God spoke to Jesus. Where is the evidence that prophecy occurred? DRosenbach ( Talk | Contribs) 12:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Consider a definition from here [4]. There is no "Mystical Theology" in Jewish sources.
In connection with your recent edit to the prophecy article. I'm not sure were to post, here or on the article.
The wikipedia definition of prophecy is: prophecy is the divine gift of speaking the truth, especially about the future. So by that definition, any fortune telling could be included! However, in terms of a broad based article on prophecy, not including modern day examples of Christian prophecy will give a biased and insignificant article. The people who gave the prophecies to Reagan and Bush believed they were hearing from God in much the same way as did the prophets of the Old Testament/Tanakh. The examples that were quoted were legitimate and referenced examples of prophecy in the modern church. Whether or not you define them as legitimate is irrelevant, they happened.
Should we remove references to Nostradamus? He was not religious, and could be described as a fortune teller. Personally, I think not. We are looking to create a balanced article here.
In driving the quality of this article forward, do we need to have sub-articles? Eg Christian Prophecy, Judaic Prophecy, Pagan prophecy etc? In the modern Christian church there are two main strands in connection with prophecy: (1) those that are waiting for the end times and using OT prophecies.(2) those that use and encourage prophecy in the church today. As I can only legitimately comment with confidence on Christian tradition, I am not sure what other belief system require.
The two references that you removed had been on the article for quite a while, all I did was find the references and tidy up the language. Personally I had never heard of the two 'prophets' in question, so don't have an agenda here. I just think that there inclusion is legitimate in presenting a balanced view point. Paulrach ( talk) 12:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
credibility to the article as a whole.
These are very interesting claims. Do you have any sources for them? "Prophecy" is a contemporary subject and phenomenon, and in general religious subjects, the realities of contemporary scholarship and Wikipedia's approach are such that, generally speaking, what the Hebrew Bible (and Judaism) has to say is a significant opinion, but nonetheless one opinion among many (and there are often multiple opinions about what they have to say). It's important to recognize when our logic is representing a potential tautology. If we narrow the definition of "prophecy" to reflect only the characteristic practices of the Biblical prophets, then of course only the Biblical prophets qualify for that term. In an article on Judaism it would be entirely appropriate to use such a definition exclusively. But in a general religion article other opinions have to be taken into account in determining the appropriate scope of the term. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 17:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Have updated the section on the New Testament as it was quite unreadable. Have spilt it into logical sections that relate more fully to the appropriate sections of the NT.
Still to do in this section:
Paulrach ( talk) 14:59, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Bahá'í Faith is not related to Islam or a subset of Islam. Someone with little understanding of world religions as added this to the wrong section. But as this is article has now been blocked no one can correct this! Paulrach ( talk) 05:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
"is said to have translated golden plates through divine revelation by the spirit" - how is divine revelation by the spirit different from the divine revelation?-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 07:06, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I read Paulrach's comments on the Christianity project page and then reviewed the recent history. mrg3105, it appears a little heavy handed to semiprotect this page. What was your reasoning for it? We generally do not evade cooperative efforts by using semiprotect or protects on pages. I would hope you would review your logic here and then revert yourself.
I appreciate your efforts to request references, but it should have gone farther. This article has few references given the topic and it makes some pretty sweeping claims. For example, on the Joseph Smith section it states, "there is no record of his experience of prophecy". Who wrote that and from what position of expertise? The whole article makes broad states without few reputable references; quote or use experts in the field when making sweeping statements or delete them. -- Storm Rider (talk) 07:57, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
The protect was only there to prevent all and sundry IPs from editing (as it explains in the template page), and not registered users. I'm sorry if the one particular user through inexperience was not aware of this. I would appreciate if the pp-protect was replaced.
I had previously extensively explained at length why this seemingly generic article name only relates to the experience of prophecy in the talk page.
Essentially one has to read the (in this case) the Bible to appreciate my arguments, but the particular User:Paulrach may not have realised that the Bible, at least the Hebrew version from the Jewish perspective, is all prophecy, as is much of Tanakh! The New Testament is also claimed to be prophetic, as is the Quaran, and other scriptures. In other words, the contents of these scriptures are a record of prophecy that include the identification of the Source (God in the Judeo-Christian scriptures), the experience of being a prophet or prophetess (a list of 55 in the Jewish case), and the record itself (the various oral and written records).
Therefore prophecy is not just about the content of prophecy, i.e. the text, and specifically "foretelling future".
If the widest scope of definition of prophecy is applied to the article as suggested, the entire contents of the Hebrew Tanakh which is attributed to the prophets recognised as such in Judaism can conceivable be reproduced in the prophecy article!
For this reason, I suggested that there are in fact many articles in Wikipedia that exist which link to the prophecy article, but are about the record of, claims of or beliefs in prophecy, and not the prophecy itself, which is a human experience of the phenomena of interaction with the Source.
Even the experience of prophecy itself needs to be trimmed to manageable proportions for the purpose of a reference work article since the biographies of all prophets can not clearly be included in the one article, and can only be linked to the articles dealing with their lives.
What other editors will have a problem with, is that most non-Jewish records of prophecy are largely lacking the description of prophecy as a process. There are many religious systems where this is the core principle of belief. This is extensively discussed by Rambam (I'm sure you are aware).
My attempt to restrict the article content to the experience of prophecy is, as I see it based on past experience with editing this article, is in the need to keep the article content manageable, and adhering to Wikipedia standards. I am quite willing to add any content or include links to any pages that relate to anything other users may seem fit to be linked to prophecy, including claims or, record of, belief in, etc., and I had created an article from a large and entirely unreferenced section of the prophecy article which was added spuriously, and is now listed for speedy deletion. No comment had been added to the article talk page since 4.4.2008. Previous entries added to the article which I watched over a period of 6 months included links to occult, divination, obscure individuals, statements of personal beliefs, and other content I can only call a miscellanea, usually unreferenced, or linked to highly biases online sites.
If you find this argument unjustified, be prepared to conduct substantial re-edits, nay, wholesale rewriting of the article every six months, as I am doing now.-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 22:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok, statements that express belief, like this "From this many Christians believe..." do not belong here, but in the article on Christians or Christianity because it is impossible to derive anything about prophecy from what people believe it is.-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 22:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I would like to understand how the following explains anything about prophecy:
In the Christian New Testament prophecy is often referred as one of the fivefold ministries or spiritual gifts that accompany the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. From this many Christians believe that prophecy is the supernatural ability to receive and convey a message from God or the divine. The purpose of the message may be to edify, exhort and comfort the body of Christ or an individual believer. In this context, not all prophecies contain predictions about the future. The Apostle Paul also teaches in Corinthians that prophecy is for the benefit of the whole Church and not just the individual exercising the gift. [2]
""The Apostle Paul also teaches in Corinthians that prophecy is for the benefit of the whole Church and not just the individual exercising the gift." - I am somewhat confused. We seem to agree on the definition that all prophecy emanates from a Divine Source. How can "the individual exercising the gift"? In any case, Corinthians 14:22 is taken completely out of context based on the Isa 28:11 to which it refers to unwillingness to learn the Torah by Isaiah's contemporaries to the point at which it became as a foreign tongue
9. Whom shall he teach knowledge and to whom shall he explain the message? To those weaned from milk, removed from breasts? 10. For a precept for a precept, a precept for a precept, a line for a line, a line for a line, a little there, a little there. 11. For with distorted speech and in another language, does he speak to this people. 12. For he said to them, "This is the rest; give rest to the weary, and this is the tranquility," but they would not listen. 13. And the word of the Lord shall be for them a precept for a precept, a precept for a precept, a line for a line, a line for a line, a little there, a little there, in order that they go and stumble backwards and be broken, and be trapped and caught.
Hence the 1 Corinthians 14:21 says
In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.
and in Corinthians 14:22
Therefore other languages are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to the unbelieving; but prophesying is for a sign, not to the unbelieving, but to those who believe.(World English Bible translation)
( Note: prophesying in this case refers tot he prophecy of Moses, i.e. the "knowledge" from Isa. 28:9 and "the word of the Lord" from Isa. 28:13)
So the reference is not to prophecy at all because the translation is taken out of context. It really means - it is pointless teaching those who do not want to be taught, because to them the language in which the teaching is being delivered will seem like a foreign language. The popular English expression to this is "Its all Greek to me", derived from Shakespeare.
The line was first spoken by Casca, one of the conspirators against Caesar in the first act of 'Julius Caesar.' He was speaking of the comments made by Cicero after Caesar three times refused the crown of emperor. Cicero actually did speak in Greek, using that language as a device to make sure that casual passers-by did not understand his remarks. Today the expression 'It's all Greek to me' simply means that what has been said is beyond the speaker's understanding." From "Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins" by William and Mary Morris (HarperCollins, New York, 1977, 1988). http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/4/messages/1274.html
-- mrg3105 ( comms) ♠♥♦♣ 00:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I also tend to see no basis for limiting the scope of this article to "the experience of prophecy" or removing material based on such a limit. There has been no consensus for such a limit, and it seems inconsistent with dictionary definitions etc. Because the naming conventions guideline says to use the ordinary English meaning of article titles, and specifically suggests using dictionaries in case of disagreement, the dictionary meaning of "prophecy" would seem to be the default basis for the article's scope in the absence of consensus otherwise. It seems to me that Christian beliefs about the nature and meaning of prophecy, experientially based or not, are relevant to this article and I see no basis for deleting them except for claims that particular content is original research and not verifiable (or is a tiny minority view that doesn't fairly or neutrally represent mainstream Christianity). Disagreement with the Christian view or a claim that it is wrong or makes no sense is simply not a basis for removing content. Best, -- Shirahadasha ( talk) 16:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
What is the use of saying that ‘Many hands make light work’ when the same copy-book tells you that ‘Too many cooks spoil the broth’? (1923 Observer 11 Feb. 9)
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