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May I just mention, for the benefit of conspiracy theorists out there, that PNAC occupies 3 offices on the 5th floor of the 1150 17th Street building. Keep that in mind next times someone writes that they're responsible for 9/11, the war in Iraq, etc.
There is no mention of the PNAC's involvement in 9/11 in the main article. It should at least include the fact that most of the members of the PNAC mentioned they needed a 'pearl harbor type event' to fulfill their plan, and many Americans suspect them of being responsible for 9/11. If you have other evidence that is not encyclopedic about their involvement in 9/11, I have a wiki for that, check my page. Conwiki 02:41, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I changed the wording since I think its supporters would agree (and in fact be flattered) by the term right-wing think tank.
I have serious problems with this -
Firstly, the ZMag article that is linked to doesn't actually say this. It says they'd found a document two years ago (the article was written on December 12, 2002) saying :
Obviously, if this document was written two years before 2002, they can't have described 9/11 as this event. Secondly, ZMag is hardly the most reliable source of NPOV information on American foreign policy. I note that there is no reference to where this document they claim to have might be accessed, although I have e-mailed them requesting further information.
I'm not confident enough around here yet to edit it myself, but if someone could let me know if I should that'd be cool. I must admit to not being entirely neutral on this subject myself, but I believe I have uncovered a factual inaccuracy here. Thanks - Noung 23:14 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I agree. I'd say simply deleting the references to PNAC would be better than leaving them as is... or at least some comment about there being much debate and partisan disagreement about the matter. Under those terms, I think mentioning the PNAC would be appropriate and informative. As written, it's at best partisan rhetoric... at worst it is simply inacurrate and has no place in an Encyclopedia. DO - June 11, 2003
If there is a plan for the war in Iraq, a better reference is needed. The NPAC Rebuilding document doesn't have a war plan. Is having two bases in the area a war plan? -- SEWilco 08:44, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I think the relationship between PNAC and other organizations needs to be a little more specific than being in the same building. SEWilco 15:37, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Also in the same building:
Jones lists JEB as a PNAC founder, that's signif if true. Kwantus
No, the "Pearl Harbour" statement from PNAC's report doesn't "prove" complicity. But ask yourself this - why was that statement in the report? Was the author just letting his mind wander? Daydreaming? Everything gets written for a reason, so what was the author trying to communicate with that statement? Personally, I think that statement is extremely suspect. ManWithoutAName.
Rebuilding [sic America's Defences [sic] is a derivative of an earlier Wolfowitz US-uber-alles document, Defense Planning Guidance, leaked to the New York Times in March 1992, causing a minor ruckus. [1] [2]
PNAC probably named itself from Luce's 1941 essay "The American Century" advocating US participation in WWII. There are similar the-world-needs-American-values-imposed-on-it tones. Even without that, there's some agreement that Luce invented the term. [3]
Previous user said that George W. Bush is a member. Haven't been able to find anything explicitly stating this.. Anybody? Rhymeless 20:20, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
There are changes going on that would delete the mentioning of the strong links of the Bush government to the PNAC, would call into question the obvious support of the PNAC for the war in Iraq, and would downplay the criticism of the PNAC by singling out "leftist" and "isolationist" critics. Please suggest a solution to these problems. Get-back-world-respect 02:40, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
This page was asked to be protected because of VeryVerily's ignorance of the three revert rule and his refusal to back his actions with valuable argumentation, not even in edit summaries. Get-back-world-respect 00:33, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I explained my edits when I made them, back before you reverted them for the twentieth time. V V 00:45, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
By "restart[ing] revert wars", you mean reinstating my edits that you had erased so many times it led to protection? Really, protection is not an endorsement of a particular version, so the fact that your version was protected does not mean it "wins" and that I will not repair your damage when protection is off. (And again you portray yourself as having nothing to do with the revert war.) If you have specific grievances with the text, you should focus on them instead of going revert-crazy. I already tried to adapt to your concerns by making alterations, but it did not stop your flurry of reverts, so I hope you'll understand that I have little incentive to try anymore. V V 01:07, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
For unknown reasons, two dubious users repeatedly removed the following paragraph:
Please discuss this here. Get-back-world-respect 03:04, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Let's compare, shall we...
"Critics of the PNAC dispute the premise that American world leadership is desirable for the world or even for America. Supporters of the PNAC argue that the project's advocated policies are not fundamentally different than what have been long been proposed by other conservative foreign policy analyists, and that the PNAC is the target of unfair conspiracy theories.
The PNAC's harshest critics argue that it represents a broad, borderline imperial agenda of global US military expansionism and dominance. Supporters reply that the PNAC's goals are not fundamentally different than what have been long been proposed by other conservative foreign policy analysts, and that the PNAC is the target of unfair conspiracy theories.
Much of the basis for its critics' arguments is derived from the text of Rebuilding America's Defenses. PNAC critics suggest that portions of the document call into question the true motives behind the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Supporters argue that there are no direct policy recommendations about Iraq in the document.
Another issue pointed to in support of the critics' position stems back to March of 1992 when an internal Pentagon report entitled Defense Policy Guidance (DPG) was leaked to The New York Times. The authors of that document -- Pentagon national security consultants at the time -- both went on to be members of the PNAC and key figures in the present Bush Administration: Paul Wolfowitz and I. Lewis Libby. When the document was leaked, there was a massive outcry, and it was soon denounced by Democratic Senator Joseph Biden as a blueprint for "literally a Pax Americana". (see Barton Gellman, “Keeping the U.S. First; Pentagon Would Preclude a Rival Superpower,” The Washington Post, 11 March 1992, p. 1.)"
"Many, particularly those on the left and isolationists, dispute the premise that American world leadership is desirable for the world or even for America. The PNAC's harshest critics argue that it represents a broad, borderline imperial agenda of global US military expansionism and dominance. Supporters reply that the PNAC's goals are not fundamentally different than what have been long been proposed by other conservative foreign policy analysts, and that the PNAC is the target of unfair conspiracy theories.
Much of the basis for its critics' arguments is derived from the text of Rebuilding America's Defenses. PNAC critics suggest that portions of the document call into question the true motives behind the 2003 invasion of Iraq; however, contrary to many reports, the document contained no policy recommendations about Iraq."
Well, first thing to notice is that version 2 is much shorter - version one is four paragraphs, version two is two. What information is ommited in the second paragraph? Is it factual, relevant, interesting, and important? well the first paragraph of v.2 is a combination of the first two in v.1 no ommisions, fine. the information in the fourth paragraph of v.1, however, is missing from v.2. this is an ommision. Is it factual, relevant, interesting, & important? It's factual. It's certainly relevant because it directly involves the PNAC. A leaked pentagon report? Sounds pretty interesting to me. Anyone dispute this? Important... A leaked pentagon report, pretty important, something controversial written by PNAC. hmm.. let's add two more qualifications here, because it looks like our test was too easy. Significant? yes. indicative? yes. Well then. This ommision is P.O.V. But that's not the end of it! By ommiting it, it appears that criticism is based on only one document, which is definitely dimunitive of the criticism, but, this, ofcourse, is untrue.
Now, let's look at the differences in the shared content. v.2 adds "particularly those on the left and isolationists," "particularly" - an interesting choice of words. particularly does not mean some of them are. it is stronger than the word especially. literally, it means that the critics are those and only those who are in the given category. bad word choice. not neccessarily intentional. we'll let that slide. but why are we making such generalizations? Can they be backed up? I'm a critic of the PNAC and an internationalist. Many conservatives, republicans, and conservative republicans, including those in congress, are critics of the PNAC. They certainly aren't leftists. This is fairly unusual. usual the two parties are split quite discretely in their views. Criticism is much more bipartisian on this issue than most issues. It is more significant that this criticism is as bipartisan as it is than it being purportedly stronger on one side of the aisle. This part of the sentence is misleading in a clear direction. P.O.V.
Now, let's look at the last significant difference:
v.1 is clearly N.P.O.V. it's factual, interesting, important, significant, & indicative. Furthermore, it's straightforward, and adds balance.
v.2 is false; not factual: there are no reports that the document contains policy recommendations about iraq. P.O.V.
In conclusion, after examining all of the differences between the two versions, we have encountered,
So, which is more NPOV? Kevin Baas | talk 23:38, 2004 Aug 4 (UTC)
All one has to do is read the damn document to see that there are no policy recomendations with regaurd to Iraq. This is a pretty black and white issue. TDC 00:12, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)
I agree that "the document contained (sic) no policy recommendations about Iraq". This is not disputed. What is disputed is whether "many", if indeed any report claims that there are "policy recommendations about Iraq" in the document, as alleged by the clause "contrary to many reports", which misleads the reader into thinking that the critics' criticism is that the document contains policy recommendations about iraq, which is a blatent politically motivated distortion that is simply not true. Kevin Baas | talk 00:56, 2004 Aug 5 (UTC)
I listed this page on RfC, for the poll. Kevin Baas | talk 19:53, 2004 Aug 7 (UTC)
Sorry, but a poll does not trump accurate entries. TDC 20:49, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)
When we put together everyone's views on what is more "accurate", rather than just having you dictate to everyone what is the most "accurate", we come up with something which is statistically more likely to be "accurate", as we have greater information channel redundancy. Kevin Baas | talk 17:12, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)
I am unprotecting this page, as well as a few others that this or a similar group of users are edit warring over. Please do not make me or any other admin reprotect these pages. I suggest one last time that, if you are having repeated conflicts, you should go to the mediation committee. Barring this, if there are further problems with this page, or other pages, I will carefully review the history of the pages, I will identify where these problems are stemming from, and I will bring users to the arbitration committee. This is unlikely to be found satisfying by anyone, so I strongly reccomend that someone take the first step and request mediation. Snowspinner 16:06, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)
The term "right wing" is POV, and should not be included. After all if Moveon.org is a "progressive" organization, then a similar euphamism should be appied to PNAC. "Hegemony" is also a POV term used by PNAC's critics, it does not belong in the opening paragraph. TDC 00:19, Aug 15, 2004 (UTC)
Whoever disputes the intro, please objectively compare and contrast the articles on conservativism & neoconservatism, hegemony & PNAC, and interventionism & PNAC. Kevin Baas | talk 21:20, 2004 Aug 15 (UTC)
Then why, exatly, did you bring it up? Fair warning, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If we allow through concensus the PNAC to be labeled an ultra-right-wing organization, dont be suprised when the ideological classification of many other groups/organizations/people change accordingly as well. This is, needles to say, not a threat, but rather a signal that the collective wisdom has deemed it appropriate to place such labels on organizations when there is stark disagrement. TDC 17:56, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)
I would say that " right-wing" is no more or less pov than " left-wing", and that they are both commonly used and socially accepted nomenclature with unambigiuos, objective, non-pejorative meanings. Kevin Baas | talk 20:57, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)
I'm not sure about our beliefs either, but I believe our assessments of the positions of various groups and politicians could be reconciled if we went to three or so scales without emotion laden terms like left and right. On a single scale, the terms left and right are so overloaded as to become meaningless. Despite their meaninglessness, they are emotionally laden terms, and even though an argument can be made that in terms of internationalism (the relevant scale here), they are to the left, you don't want them associated with the left at all. You must have some fondness or affection for the term. Similarly, I find the right refreshingly tolerant, honest and principled, and don't want it tarred with the PNAC either. -- Silverback 02:38, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(This page has been listed on RfC)
Regarding this diff: [4]. (Also see the above poll, and discuss with your vote.) Kevin Baas | talk 17:41, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)
== VV, why did you revert? He had a valid point. == Kevin Baas | talk 20:13, 2004 Sep 25 (UTC)
The way it's written at the moment implies that most of the opposition to the concept of US world domination comes from the US left, which seems a bit ridiculous to me. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say something like "everyone in the world except the US right thinks this is a bad idea"?
listen, guys, this encyclopaedia article is not the place to win or even fight the debates about these issues. our job is simply to state the fact that there is a debate and summarise the important positions. verily, it may seem obvious *to you* that the transformation referred to in that PNAC document strictly relates to information technology; i and many others draw a different conclusion, however, and the fact that we disagree on the interpretation means it's improper to take a certain editorial tone. you don't see me deleting your interpretations, do you? hence i'm reverting back to the neutral version and if we can't come to some sort of compromise my next step will be to ask for mediation. <ck>
well...VV...surely the fact that I clearly do have another interpretation proves that it is in fact *possible* to draw a different meaning from the text than the one that you did. i really think my version is much more NPOV because it presents both sides: if you'd rather rephrase the "pro" side of the debate please do so, but I really think it's bad form to present the issue as resolved in favour of one side when that is clearly not the case.<ck>
verily: you'll probably understand my position, because it's quite similar to yours on another issue. where you argue that the pearl harbor line is taken out of the context of a broader debate, i believe that the "information technologies" interpretation is taken out of the context of a discussion on, well, the section title speaks for itself ("creating tomorrow's dominant force").
now, i don't believe arguing to this level of detail is productive or necessary for an encyclopaedia entry; but the very fact you and I are discussing this is surely proof that your POV on this issue is not the only one, and therefore I believe it's inappropriate to present just one interpretation of the discussion. reverted to the NPOV version.
verily, i don't really understand your point. are you saying that in fact i *don't* have the interpretation i claim to have? the version you keep trying to push is blatantly POV.<ck>
Alright, VV, let's put 2 and 2 (and 2) together here: 2 - You have conceded that the particular interpretation in question is not true, 2 - You shoud be well aware by now, as it has been repeated to you numerous times in numerous ways by numerous people, that a significant number of people are, in fact, interpreting the language in question that way, 2 - you want the language in question to remain as is. 2+2+2=6 - You want people to be falsely informed. Can you understand how this conclusion follows simply and directly from the facts, and how it is a completely reasonable conclusion to come to? Do you understand why we consider this disruptive; why we consider this to be antagonistic to the goals of wikipedia, which is the exact opposite: to truthfully inform people. This is the raison d'etre for the ongoing discussion, besides the fact that you are trying to use an appeal to prejudice to persuade people to your POV, against the fierce objections of numerous contributors, not to mention established wikipedia policy. Kevin Baas | talk 19:32, 2004 Sep 27 (UTC)
VV, I'm sure this is not intentional, but your version also comes across as a bit of a "strawman" to me - yours says:
" Conspiracy theorists argue this is suspiciously prescient of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, with some going so far as to suggest complicity of the PNAC in the attacks. Many also incorrectly claim that this "new Pearl Harbor" is stated to be needed to justify war on Iraq..."
Your version basically says there are two types of people who criticise the Pearl Harbor thing - conspiracy theorists who think the PNAC did it, and people who haven't read the report. In fact the most heavyweight criticism I've encountered (in the mainstream UK media and other places) - and which I tried to distil in my version - is that the PNAC members who now run the USA cynically exploited the events to accelerate their programme of US world "leadership". This statement is seen by such critics to be a declaration of their intent. So if you're going to make another change I ask you to bear this in mind.<ck>
Hi Verily. I think I explained my understanding that the "transformation" referred to is a broader one than the information technologies you understand it to refer to. I have to respectfully point out that I'm not alone in this interpretation, which has been proposed in mainstream media sources (for example the UK press). If I dig out a source or two, will you let this interpretation stand?
I agree that some conspiracy theorists believe Mohammed Attah et al were working for the PNAC, which is why I kept that information in my version.
Verily, I understand you disagree with my interpretation - maybe even think it's silly. That's your prerogative, but please will you stop deleting POVs simply because they're not the same as yours, particularly when they're being presented neutrally? CK 23:21, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
VV, just re-read what you wrote and I think I now understand your objection. Obviously my version isn't expressing clearly what I mean to say and maybe we can work together to make it more explicit.
"...intent to use the "new Pearl Harbor" as an excuse to begin aggressive foreign policy..."
is not what I'm trying to say. The criticism is:
1). PNAC report says: we want to achieve US world leadership 2). and (arguably): achieving this will take a new Pearl Harbor 3). then 9/11 comes along - the "new pearl harbor" 4). PNAC - now in power - seize the chance to accelerate their plans to achieve US world leadership
Does that make sense? CK 23:27, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
On the grounds that Verily is just reverting without even discussing the points any more I think we should request mediation. What does everyone else think? CK 00:01, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
have requested mediation. VV, let's let a disinterested party decide what's useful, i think you and i have gotten too entrenched in our positions here. CK 01:59, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
verily, it seems to me that you started the reverts at 04:44 on the 25th of september. CK 12:32, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Verily, that link is to a change between two of your own versions. Anyway, if by incorporating my text you mean you included an unrelated line at the bottom while systematically deleting and belittling any ideas that might threaten your own position, then you've incorporated my text.
For an example of a good faith edit, however, maybe you should check out my edit of 01.56 on Sept 25 - a version that presents your POV, in your own words, as one half of a debate. CK 02:14, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
A fringe claim made by The Guardian (daily circ. 400,000) among many others. CK 02:32, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Your version doesn't incorporate "my" ideas at all - rather it sets up a strawman for your highly biased POV to attack. CK 02:33, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
":(2) is indefensible from the primary source. (4) is a POV and is unconnected to the subject of RAD. Furthermore, there's nothing damning in any case. If someone were to argue that 9/11 were being cynically exploited, they can work directly from the facts, rather than try to build a much weaker (to put it mildly) case around the text of RAD, which is not relevant. V V 00:55, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)"
(2) is only indefensible from the primary source in your opinion, which is worth no more than anyone elses, whatever you think. (4) is not unconnected to the controversy over the statement, it's the cause of the controversy. and FYI, just because you think it's a weak argument does not mean it *is* a weak argument. i'm really getting sick of this. CK 12:52, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
VV: my version contains both sides of the debate, yours contains only your own and your strawman. I have belatedly realised you have no respect for truth and POV. reverted and will continue to do so until someone puts a stop to your selfish antics. CK 01:45, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
well, i hope you find subverting an encyclopaedia a rewarding way to spend your next year and a half. CK 02:04, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
WOW, clearly GBWR VV and TDC, you are all intelligent people, do something constructive
I'm completely uninvolved in this matter, but I can tell an edit war when I look at one. Article's temporarily protected. Bryan 02:39, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Thank you! Now, let's see if we can't sort this out. The edit war is between two versions.
Version 1:
A section of the document that has proved particularly controversial can be found in Section V, "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force" (page 53):
"Further, the process of transformation...is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor."
Critics of the PNAC have suggested that the September 11, 2001 attacks were just such an event, which were then cynically exploited by the Bush administration to enable it to aggressively pursue the PNAC's agenda. (Some conspiracy theorists see this passage as evidence of complicity in the attacks.)
Supporters of the PNAC say the quote is taken out of the context of a discussion specifically about military use of information technologies, and the report is simply guessing that full transformation to new technologies is likely to be a slow process unless some "catalyzing" event causes the military to upgrade more quickly.
The quote is a source of much spirited - and frequently extremely partisan and ill-informed - debate, and readers may find it more enlightening to examine the document directly than to rely on third party interpretations.
Version 2:
A line frequently quoted out of context from Rebuilding America's Defenses famously refers to the possibility of a "catastrophic and catalyzing event — like a new Pearl Harbor" (page 51). Conspiracy theorists argue this is suspiciously prescient of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, with some going so far as to suggest complicity of the PNAC in the attacks. Many also incorrectly claim that this "new Pearl Harbor" is stated to be needed to justify war on Iraq. In fact, however, the quote is part of a discussion about military use of information technologies, where the report is simply guessing that full transformation to new technologies is likely to be a slow process unless some "catalyzing" event causes the military to upgrade more quickly. Despite the easy availability of the whole document, the quote provokes spirited - and often partisan and ill-informed - debate.
I would love to see some outside opinions on which of these versions is more suitable. CK 02:43, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Sectioning out. [[User:Poccil| Peter O. ( Talk)]] 19:01, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
End of sectioning. [[User:Poccil| Peter O. ( Talk)]] 19:01, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
Verily is - presumably deliberately - misrepresenting one side of the issue. The so-called "fringe" criticism (which has appeared in several mainstream media sources) does not claim that RAD specifically calls for invasion of Iraq (although even this is arguable, considering passages like "...while the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein..."). Rather, it says that RAD is a blueprint for achieving American world "leadership" as laid out by PNAC - the senior members of whom are now running America - and in it, they lament that the process of "transformation" will be long and difficult unless some Pearl Harbor-like event should occur. (The precise nature of said "transformation" is apparently a matter of some debate.)
It's my opinion that version 1 is an attempt at balance and summary - version 2 presents one side of the argument and a strawman version of the other, falsely representing the argument as closed in favour of the author's preferred side. This is at best extremely biased, and at worst deliberately misleading, and given Veryverily's stated willingness to conduct an edit war for a "year and a half" in defence of version 2 I believe arbitration is the only solution here. CK 10:11, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This ongoing discussion clearly illustrates the matter has not been resolved, and the article should reflect that.
To address VV's specific points:
This encyclopaedia is not a place for you or I to push our own subjective interpretations of such on others. It seems that you've been here much longer than I - I shouldn't have to be lecturing you on the importance of NPOV to this project. CK 11:57, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Dispute resolution suggests conducting a survey at this point. Skimming over this extremely long talk: page and reviewing article history back to May it seems to me that VeryVerily is unlikely to back down if the consensus goes against him, but we should probably cross that T before diving straight into a request for arbitration. Who knows, it might even work. Bryan 00:21, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Re-indenting. [[User:Poccil| Peter O. ( Talk)]] 23:03, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
End of re-indenting. [[User:Poccil| Peter O. ( Talk)]] 23:03, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
After reading through both versions twice, it seems to me to be an open-and-shut case: version one conforms relatively well to the NPOV policy, presenting both of the opposing points of view. Version two appears to contain some heavy-handed editorializing, and the writer seems overly concerned that without the proper guidance, the reader may not arrive at the correct conclusion, i.e., that one point of view is vastly superior to the other. And, I'm amazed at the amount of hairsplitting going on on this talk page over the relatively minor differences between the two versions (the debate that runs way over to the right hand margin is a comic touch). -- Herschelkrustofsky 02:30, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Over on the Request for Arbitration VeryVerily has agreed to a survey, so I'm going to set one up. For the moment please do not vote; right now I'm just presenting the first draft for comment and modification (see Wikipedia:Survey guidelines).
Please comment and make suggestions; I went with a completely "bland" and detail-free question but if we can agree on a deeper issue to address that would be welcome. Bryan 01:37, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
<heavysarcasm>Here are some more examples of NPOV work, along the lines of CK's paragraphs above!:
And of course,
Isn't this fun? Let's get to work making this encyclopedia NPOV!</heavysarcasm> V V 08:30, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The following section was a proposed question for the survey that turned into a debate that more properly belongs here on the main talk. Bryan 02:15, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(2) is where the breakdown occurs. The document does not say such an event would enable an administration to accelerate anything; it merely states such acceleration would occur. Of course the wording is also subtly spun to imply something that isn't there. (3) is flat wrong. V V 00:48, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Voting is stupid. And you're wrong, there's a difference between saying "thunder causes rain" and "thunder can be used to cause rain", as the latter implies the intervention of an agent. You're wholly distorting words re (3); the section is about use of technology in the military. V V 05:10, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is another thread that developed in response to a proposed question on the survey Bryan 02:19, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Verily's tiresome strawman pokes its ugly head up once more. VV is attempting to characterise the critics as either conspiracy theorists or those who have not read the report, ignoring the real critics. VV, please note that version 1 does not use such intellectually dishonest tactics: you don't see a qualifier like "supporters of the PNAC mistakenly argue that the phrase A New Pearl Harbor does not appear in any PNAC documents" in there, do you? CK 21:38, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There's a link to the infamous PNAC letter to Clinton at the bottom of the article. However, there's nothing in the article about it.
As the letter is so well known and is cited regularly by critics of the Bush administration as evidence that they had already decided to invade Iraq and oust Saddam well before 2001, surely a small paragraph on the letter should be included in this article? It's certainly a more credible theory than the "new Pearl Harbor" mudslinging.
How about this?
Kyz 10:18, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Guys, this has been protected for nearly a month now. When's it gonna be unprotected? I've wanted to make a tiny edit for weeks... Evercat 23:57, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
So, shall I unprotect the page or what? The arbitration request has five arbitrators out of nine having cast votes on whether to accept it now, so there may soon be progress on that front. On the other hand, I dislike leaving a version protected that's so widely considered to be POV. Bryan 05:23, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Please unprotect the article. If VeryVerily makes another unilateral reversion, as he certainly will, please restore the consensus agreed upon in this survey and freeze the article until VeryVerily has been banned. Shorne 19:04, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
May all be a moot point anyway, looks like the arbitration case on this issue was just accepted by ArbCom. Bryan 23:45, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I question the quote from Bremner, a comedianne. Is he a universally regarded Will Rogers type? I'm not unalterably opposed to the use of his quote, but would like to know the justification, it might come in handy in justifying other things elsewhere.-- Silverback 20:30, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Without elaboration or qualification, this is misleading because there was a lot of agreement in the international community. For instance, most would agree that Saddam still was not in compliance and had not been forthcoming, most would agree that inspections would not be going on at all if not for the expensive US troop buildup on the border. Yes, some thought given more time, inspections might make some more progress, some were willing to accept that the unaccounted for WMD might actually have been destroyed. This part should be at least qualified as "some in the international community" or better yet, more detail given. The link to the other wikipedia is more supportive of "some" than it is of painting the whole international community with one broad brush.-- Silverback 21:14, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The context of the criticism is to iterate and address criticism of the PNAC. It is not to randomly discuss PNAC documents.
There is a paragraph which begins "Many critics also claim that the PNAC believed this "new Pearl Harbor" would justify war on Iraq, but there is no evidence in the report to back up this assertion; on the subject of Iraq, ...". It follows this logical train of thought. It continues to describe the use of Iraq in the document, in reference to the central premise of the paragraph that critics are incorrect to claim an association between the PNAC's "new Pearl Harbour" quote and the PNAC's justification for attacking Iraq.
If any of the material in that paragraph is irrelevant to that premise, delete it. If cut the first clause from the paragraph and paste it on to the end of the prior paragraph, it becomes an uncorroborated statement followed by a meaningless paragraph.
I would like all the PNAC critics points to be clearly captured.
One point is that there is a lot of PNAC representation and presumably influence within the Bush administration. I think this is probably well documented in the article already.
Do the critics think that certain PNAC positions are explicit but not well known and need to be exposed? Which positions, do we have them all yet?
Do the critics think that PNAC positions are different or more extreme than they have made explicit, and that a fair inference can be made from evidence that supports this? The evidence and lines of reasoning should be presented.
Do the critics that Bush decisions would be different without PNAC influence, i.e., that he is not getting enough different viewpoints?
Do the critics suggest that Bush did not know that the PNAC members already had rather fixed ideas before he appointed them, i.e., they kept their "extreme" views secret?
Do the critics not believe that secrecy is involved at all, they just think there is a Secretary of State vs PNAC battle within the whitehouse and they want to make sure it is exposed, so that Secretary Powells viewpoint will get a fair hearing?
Hope this assists in developing a well presented framework.-- Silverback 18:30, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I don't think this category belongs. This is simply an American thinktank which, among many other things, has promoted foreign policy views on Iraq; it is not a state apparatus. Very Verily 09:03, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I added the category initially. I can't imagine why this is controversial. It seems to me that someone perusing the category US-Iraqi relations is quite likely to find this article of interest. Identifying such articles is the function of categories, it is not intended to "pigeon-hole" an article. The category does not indicate that PNAC is exclusively concerned with Iraq. Other categories may also be relevant. If for some reason you think this article would not be of particular interest to someone interested in US-Iraqi relations, I'd be interested to know why. Adding category back for now. Wolfman 04:01, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
May I just mention, for the benefit of conspiracy theorists out there, that PNAC occupies 3 offices on the 5th floor of the 1150 17th Street building. Keep that in mind next times someone writes that they're responsible for 9/11, the war in Iraq, etc.
There is no mention of the PNAC's involvement in 9/11 in the main article. It should at least include the fact that most of the members of the PNAC mentioned they needed a 'pearl harbor type event' to fulfill their plan, and many Americans suspect them of being responsible for 9/11. If you have other evidence that is not encyclopedic about their involvement in 9/11, I have a wiki for that, check my page. Conwiki 02:41, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I changed the wording since I think its supporters would agree (and in fact be flattered) by the term right-wing think tank.
I have serious problems with this -
Firstly, the ZMag article that is linked to doesn't actually say this. It says they'd found a document two years ago (the article was written on December 12, 2002) saying :
Obviously, if this document was written two years before 2002, they can't have described 9/11 as this event. Secondly, ZMag is hardly the most reliable source of NPOV information on American foreign policy. I note that there is no reference to where this document they claim to have might be accessed, although I have e-mailed them requesting further information.
I'm not confident enough around here yet to edit it myself, but if someone could let me know if I should that'd be cool. I must admit to not being entirely neutral on this subject myself, but I believe I have uncovered a factual inaccuracy here. Thanks - Noung 23:14 4 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I agree. I'd say simply deleting the references to PNAC would be better than leaving them as is... or at least some comment about there being much debate and partisan disagreement about the matter. Under those terms, I think mentioning the PNAC would be appropriate and informative. As written, it's at best partisan rhetoric... at worst it is simply inacurrate and has no place in an Encyclopedia. DO - June 11, 2003
If there is a plan for the war in Iraq, a better reference is needed. The NPAC Rebuilding document doesn't have a war plan. Is having two bases in the area a war plan? -- SEWilco 08:44, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I think the relationship between PNAC and other organizations needs to be a little more specific than being in the same building. SEWilco 15:37, 24 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Also in the same building:
Jones lists JEB as a PNAC founder, that's signif if true. Kwantus
No, the "Pearl Harbour" statement from PNAC's report doesn't "prove" complicity. But ask yourself this - why was that statement in the report? Was the author just letting his mind wander? Daydreaming? Everything gets written for a reason, so what was the author trying to communicate with that statement? Personally, I think that statement is extremely suspect. ManWithoutAName.
Rebuilding [sic America's Defences [sic] is a derivative of an earlier Wolfowitz US-uber-alles document, Defense Planning Guidance, leaked to the New York Times in March 1992, causing a minor ruckus. [1] [2]
PNAC probably named itself from Luce's 1941 essay "The American Century" advocating US participation in WWII. There are similar the-world-needs-American-values-imposed-on-it tones. Even without that, there's some agreement that Luce invented the term. [3]
Previous user said that George W. Bush is a member. Haven't been able to find anything explicitly stating this.. Anybody? Rhymeless 20:20, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
There are changes going on that would delete the mentioning of the strong links of the Bush government to the PNAC, would call into question the obvious support of the PNAC for the war in Iraq, and would downplay the criticism of the PNAC by singling out "leftist" and "isolationist" critics. Please suggest a solution to these problems. Get-back-world-respect 02:40, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)
This page was asked to be protected because of VeryVerily's ignorance of the three revert rule and his refusal to back his actions with valuable argumentation, not even in edit summaries. Get-back-world-respect 00:33, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I explained my edits when I made them, back before you reverted them for the twentieth time. V V 00:45, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
By "restart[ing] revert wars", you mean reinstating my edits that you had erased so many times it led to protection? Really, protection is not an endorsement of a particular version, so the fact that your version was protected does not mean it "wins" and that I will not repair your damage when protection is off. (And again you portray yourself as having nothing to do with the revert war.) If you have specific grievances with the text, you should focus on them instead of going revert-crazy. I already tried to adapt to your concerns by making alterations, but it did not stop your flurry of reverts, so I hope you'll understand that I have little incentive to try anymore. V V 01:07, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
For unknown reasons, two dubious users repeatedly removed the following paragraph:
Please discuss this here. Get-back-world-respect 03:04, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Let's compare, shall we...
"Critics of the PNAC dispute the premise that American world leadership is desirable for the world or even for America. Supporters of the PNAC argue that the project's advocated policies are not fundamentally different than what have been long been proposed by other conservative foreign policy analyists, and that the PNAC is the target of unfair conspiracy theories.
The PNAC's harshest critics argue that it represents a broad, borderline imperial agenda of global US military expansionism and dominance. Supporters reply that the PNAC's goals are not fundamentally different than what have been long been proposed by other conservative foreign policy analysts, and that the PNAC is the target of unfair conspiracy theories.
Much of the basis for its critics' arguments is derived from the text of Rebuilding America's Defenses. PNAC critics suggest that portions of the document call into question the true motives behind the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Supporters argue that there are no direct policy recommendations about Iraq in the document.
Another issue pointed to in support of the critics' position stems back to March of 1992 when an internal Pentagon report entitled Defense Policy Guidance (DPG) was leaked to The New York Times. The authors of that document -- Pentagon national security consultants at the time -- both went on to be members of the PNAC and key figures in the present Bush Administration: Paul Wolfowitz and I. Lewis Libby. When the document was leaked, there was a massive outcry, and it was soon denounced by Democratic Senator Joseph Biden as a blueprint for "literally a Pax Americana". (see Barton Gellman, “Keeping the U.S. First; Pentagon Would Preclude a Rival Superpower,” The Washington Post, 11 March 1992, p. 1.)"
"Many, particularly those on the left and isolationists, dispute the premise that American world leadership is desirable for the world or even for America. The PNAC's harshest critics argue that it represents a broad, borderline imperial agenda of global US military expansionism and dominance. Supporters reply that the PNAC's goals are not fundamentally different than what have been long been proposed by other conservative foreign policy analysts, and that the PNAC is the target of unfair conspiracy theories.
Much of the basis for its critics' arguments is derived from the text of Rebuilding America's Defenses. PNAC critics suggest that portions of the document call into question the true motives behind the 2003 invasion of Iraq; however, contrary to many reports, the document contained no policy recommendations about Iraq."
Well, first thing to notice is that version 2 is much shorter - version one is four paragraphs, version two is two. What information is ommited in the second paragraph? Is it factual, relevant, interesting, and important? well the first paragraph of v.2 is a combination of the first two in v.1 no ommisions, fine. the information in the fourth paragraph of v.1, however, is missing from v.2. this is an ommision. Is it factual, relevant, interesting, & important? It's factual. It's certainly relevant because it directly involves the PNAC. A leaked pentagon report? Sounds pretty interesting to me. Anyone dispute this? Important... A leaked pentagon report, pretty important, something controversial written by PNAC. hmm.. let's add two more qualifications here, because it looks like our test was too easy. Significant? yes. indicative? yes. Well then. This ommision is P.O.V. But that's not the end of it! By ommiting it, it appears that criticism is based on only one document, which is definitely dimunitive of the criticism, but, this, ofcourse, is untrue.
Now, let's look at the differences in the shared content. v.2 adds "particularly those on the left and isolationists," "particularly" - an interesting choice of words. particularly does not mean some of them are. it is stronger than the word especially. literally, it means that the critics are those and only those who are in the given category. bad word choice. not neccessarily intentional. we'll let that slide. but why are we making such generalizations? Can they be backed up? I'm a critic of the PNAC and an internationalist. Many conservatives, republicans, and conservative republicans, including those in congress, are critics of the PNAC. They certainly aren't leftists. This is fairly unusual. usual the two parties are split quite discretely in their views. Criticism is much more bipartisian on this issue than most issues. It is more significant that this criticism is as bipartisan as it is than it being purportedly stronger on one side of the aisle. This part of the sentence is misleading in a clear direction. P.O.V.
Now, let's look at the last significant difference:
v.1 is clearly N.P.O.V. it's factual, interesting, important, significant, & indicative. Furthermore, it's straightforward, and adds balance.
v.2 is false; not factual: there are no reports that the document contains policy recommendations about iraq. P.O.V.
In conclusion, after examining all of the differences between the two versions, we have encountered,
So, which is more NPOV? Kevin Baas | talk 23:38, 2004 Aug 4 (UTC)
All one has to do is read the damn document to see that there are no policy recomendations with regaurd to Iraq. This is a pretty black and white issue. TDC 00:12, Aug 5, 2004 (UTC)
I agree that "the document contained (sic) no policy recommendations about Iraq". This is not disputed. What is disputed is whether "many", if indeed any report claims that there are "policy recommendations about Iraq" in the document, as alleged by the clause "contrary to many reports", which misleads the reader into thinking that the critics' criticism is that the document contains policy recommendations about iraq, which is a blatent politically motivated distortion that is simply not true. Kevin Baas | talk 00:56, 2004 Aug 5 (UTC)
I listed this page on RfC, for the poll. Kevin Baas | talk 19:53, 2004 Aug 7 (UTC)
Sorry, but a poll does not trump accurate entries. TDC 20:49, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)
When we put together everyone's views on what is more "accurate", rather than just having you dictate to everyone what is the most "accurate", we come up with something which is statistically more likely to be "accurate", as we have greater information channel redundancy. Kevin Baas | talk 17:12, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)
I am unprotecting this page, as well as a few others that this or a similar group of users are edit warring over. Please do not make me or any other admin reprotect these pages. I suggest one last time that, if you are having repeated conflicts, you should go to the mediation committee. Barring this, if there are further problems with this page, or other pages, I will carefully review the history of the pages, I will identify where these problems are stemming from, and I will bring users to the arbitration committee. This is unlikely to be found satisfying by anyone, so I strongly reccomend that someone take the first step and request mediation. Snowspinner 16:06, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)
The term "right wing" is POV, and should not be included. After all if Moveon.org is a "progressive" organization, then a similar euphamism should be appied to PNAC. "Hegemony" is also a POV term used by PNAC's critics, it does not belong in the opening paragraph. TDC 00:19, Aug 15, 2004 (UTC)
Whoever disputes the intro, please objectively compare and contrast the articles on conservativism & neoconservatism, hegemony & PNAC, and interventionism & PNAC. Kevin Baas | talk 21:20, 2004 Aug 15 (UTC)
Then why, exatly, did you bring it up? Fair warning, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If we allow through concensus the PNAC to be labeled an ultra-right-wing organization, dont be suprised when the ideological classification of many other groups/organizations/people change accordingly as well. This is, needles to say, not a threat, but rather a signal that the collective wisdom has deemed it appropriate to place such labels on organizations when there is stark disagrement. TDC 17:56, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)
I would say that " right-wing" is no more or less pov than " left-wing", and that they are both commonly used and socially accepted nomenclature with unambigiuos, objective, non-pejorative meanings. Kevin Baas | talk 20:57, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)
I'm not sure about our beliefs either, but I believe our assessments of the positions of various groups and politicians could be reconciled if we went to three or so scales without emotion laden terms like left and right. On a single scale, the terms left and right are so overloaded as to become meaningless. Despite their meaninglessness, they are emotionally laden terms, and even though an argument can be made that in terms of internationalism (the relevant scale here), they are to the left, you don't want them associated with the left at all. You must have some fondness or affection for the term. Similarly, I find the right refreshingly tolerant, honest and principled, and don't want it tarred with the PNAC either. -- Silverback 02:38, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(This page has been listed on RfC)
Regarding this diff: [4]. (Also see the above poll, and discuss with your vote.) Kevin Baas | talk 17:41, 2004 Sep 23 (UTC)
== VV, why did you revert? He had a valid point. == Kevin Baas | talk 20:13, 2004 Sep 25 (UTC)
The way it's written at the moment implies that most of the opposition to the concept of US world domination comes from the US left, which seems a bit ridiculous to me. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say something like "everyone in the world except the US right thinks this is a bad idea"?
listen, guys, this encyclopaedia article is not the place to win or even fight the debates about these issues. our job is simply to state the fact that there is a debate and summarise the important positions. verily, it may seem obvious *to you* that the transformation referred to in that PNAC document strictly relates to information technology; i and many others draw a different conclusion, however, and the fact that we disagree on the interpretation means it's improper to take a certain editorial tone. you don't see me deleting your interpretations, do you? hence i'm reverting back to the neutral version and if we can't come to some sort of compromise my next step will be to ask for mediation. <ck>
well...VV...surely the fact that I clearly do have another interpretation proves that it is in fact *possible* to draw a different meaning from the text than the one that you did. i really think my version is much more NPOV because it presents both sides: if you'd rather rephrase the "pro" side of the debate please do so, but I really think it's bad form to present the issue as resolved in favour of one side when that is clearly not the case.<ck>
verily: you'll probably understand my position, because it's quite similar to yours on another issue. where you argue that the pearl harbor line is taken out of the context of a broader debate, i believe that the "information technologies" interpretation is taken out of the context of a discussion on, well, the section title speaks for itself ("creating tomorrow's dominant force").
now, i don't believe arguing to this level of detail is productive or necessary for an encyclopaedia entry; but the very fact you and I are discussing this is surely proof that your POV on this issue is not the only one, and therefore I believe it's inappropriate to present just one interpretation of the discussion. reverted to the NPOV version.
verily, i don't really understand your point. are you saying that in fact i *don't* have the interpretation i claim to have? the version you keep trying to push is blatantly POV.<ck>
Alright, VV, let's put 2 and 2 (and 2) together here: 2 - You have conceded that the particular interpretation in question is not true, 2 - You shoud be well aware by now, as it has been repeated to you numerous times in numerous ways by numerous people, that a significant number of people are, in fact, interpreting the language in question that way, 2 - you want the language in question to remain as is. 2+2+2=6 - You want people to be falsely informed. Can you understand how this conclusion follows simply and directly from the facts, and how it is a completely reasonable conclusion to come to? Do you understand why we consider this disruptive; why we consider this to be antagonistic to the goals of wikipedia, which is the exact opposite: to truthfully inform people. This is the raison d'etre for the ongoing discussion, besides the fact that you are trying to use an appeal to prejudice to persuade people to your POV, against the fierce objections of numerous contributors, not to mention established wikipedia policy. Kevin Baas | talk 19:32, 2004 Sep 27 (UTC)
VV, I'm sure this is not intentional, but your version also comes across as a bit of a "strawman" to me - yours says:
" Conspiracy theorists argue this is suspiciously prescient of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, with some going so far as to suggest complicity of the PNAC in the attacks. Many also incorrectly claim that this "new Pearl Harbor" is stated to be needed to justify war on Iraq..."
Your version basically says there are two types of people who criticise the Pearl Harbor thing - conspiracy theorists who think the PNAC did it, and people who haven't read the report. In fact the most heavyweight criticism I've encountered (in the mainstream UK media and other places) - and which I tried to distil in my version - is that the PNAC members who now run the USA cynically exploited the events to accelerate their programme of US world "leadership". This statement is seen by such critics to be a declaration of their intent. So if you're going to make another change I ask you to bear this in mind.<ck>
Hi Verily. I think I explained my understanding that the "transformation" referred to is a broader one than the information technologies you understand it to refer to. I have to respectfully point out that I'm not alone in this interpretation, which has been proposed in mainstream media sources (for example the UK press). If I dig out a source or two, will you let this interpretation stand?
I agree that some conspiracy theorists believe Mohammed Attah et al were working for the PNAC, which is why I kept that information in my version.
Verily, I understand you disagree with my interpretation - maybe even think it's silly. That's your prerogative, but please will you stop deleting POVs simply because they're not the same as yours, particularly when they're being presented neutrally? CK 23:21, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
VV, just re-read what you wrote and I think I now understand your objection. Obviously my version isn't expressing clearly what I mean to say and maybe we can work together to make it more explicit.
"...intent to use the "new Pearl Harbor" as an excuse to begin aggressive foreign policy..."
is not what I'm trying to say. The criticism is:
1). PNAC report says: we want to achieve US world leadership 2). and (arguably): achieving this will take a new Pearl Harbor 3). then 9/11 comes along - the "new pearl harbor" 4). PNAC - now in power - seize the chance to accelerate their plans to achieve US world leadership
Does that make sense? CK 23:27, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
On the grounds that Verily is just reverting without even discussing the points any more I think we should request mediation. What does everyone else think? CK 00:01, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
have requested mediation. VV, let's let a disinterested party decide what's useful, i think you and i have gotten too entrenched in our positions here. CK 01:59, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
verily, it seems to me that you started the reverts at 04:44 on the 25th of september. CK 12:32, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Verily, that link is to a change between two of your own versions. Anyway, if by incorporating my text you mean you included an unrelated line at the bottom while systematically deleting and belittling any ideas that might threaten your own position, then you've incorporated my text.
For an example of a good faith edit, however, maybe you should check out my edit of 01.56 on Sept 25 - a version that presents your POV, in your own words, as one half of a debate. CK 02:14, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
A fringe claim made by The Guardian (daily circ. 400,000) among many others. CK 02:32, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Your version doesn't incorporate "my" ideas at all - rather it sets up a strawman for your highly biased POV to attack. CK 02:33, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
":(2) is indefensible from the primary source. (4) is a POV and is unconnected to the subject of RAD. Furthermore, there's nothing damning in any case. If someone were to argue that 9/11 were being cynically exploited, they can work directly from the facts, rather than try to build a much weaker (to put it mildly) case around the text of RAD, which is not relevant. V V 00:55, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)"
(2) is only indefensible from the primary source in your opinion, which is worth no more than anyone elses, whatever you think. (4) is not unconnected to the controversy over the statement, it's the cause of the controversy. and FYI, just because you think it's a weak argument does not mean it *is* a weak argument. i'm really getting sick of this. CK 12:52, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
VV: my version contains both sides of the debate, yours contains only your own and your strawman. I have belatedly realised you have no respect for truth and POV. reverted and will continue to do so until someone puts a stop to your selfish antics. CK 01:45, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
well, i hope you find subverting an encyclopaedia a rewarding way to spend your next year and a half. CK 02:04, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
WOW, clearly GBWR VV and TDC, you are all intelligent people, do something constructive
I'm completely uninvolved in this matter, but I can tell an edit war when I look at one. Article's temporarily protected. Bryan 02:39, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Thank you! Now, let's see if we can't sort this out. The edit war is between two versions.
Version 1:
A section of the document that has proved particularly controversial can be found in Section V, "Creating Tomorrow's Dominant Force" (page 53):
"Further, the process of transformation...is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor."
Critics of the PNAC have suggested that the September 11, 2001 attacks were just such an event, which were then cynically exploited by the Bush administration to enable it to aggressively pursue the PNAC's agenda. (Some conspiracy theorists see this passage as evidence of complicity in the attacks.)
Supporters of the PNAC say the quote is taken out of the context of a discussion specifically about military use of information technologies, and the report is simply guessing that full transformation to new technologies is likely to be a slow process unless some "catalyzing" event causes the military to upgrade more quickly.
The quote is a source of much spirited - and frequently extremely partisan and ill-informed - debate, and readers may find it more enlightening to examine the document directly than to rely on third party interpretations.
Version 2:
A line frequently quoted out of context from Rebuilding America's Defenses famously refers to the possibility of a "catastrophic and catalyzing event — like a new Pearl Harbor" (page 51). Conspiracy theorists argue this is suspiciously prescient of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, with some going so far as to suggest complicity of the PNAC in the attacks. Many also incorrectly claim that this "new Pearl Harbor" is stated to be needed to justify war on Iraq. In fact, however, the quote is part of a discussion about military use of information technologies, where the report is simply guessing that full transformation to new technologies is likely to be a slow process unless some "catalyzing" event causes the military to upgrade more quickly. Despite the easy availability of the whole document, the quote provokes spirited - and often partisan and ill-informed - debate.
I would love to see some outside opinions on which of these versions is more suitable. CK 02:43, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Sectioning out. [[User:Poccil| Peter O. ( Talk)]] 19:01, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
End of sectioning. [[User:Poccil| Peter O. ( Talk)]] 19:01, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)
Verily is - presumably deliberately - misrepresenting one side of the issue. The so-called "fringe" criticism (which has appeared in several mainstream media sources) does not claim that RAD specifically calls for invasion of Iraq (although even this is arguable, considering passages like "...while the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein..."). Rather, it says that RAD is a blueprint for achieving American world "leadership" as laid out by PNAC - the senior members of whom are now running America - and in it, they lament that the process of "transformation" will be long and difficult unless some Pearl Harbor-like event should occur. (The precise nature of said "transformation" is apparently a matter of some debate.)
It's my opinion that version 1 is an attempt at balance and summary - version 2 presents one side of the argument and a strawman version of the other, falsely representing the argument as closed in favour of the author's preferred side. This is at best extremely biased, and at worst deliberately misleading, and given Veryverily's stated willingness to conduct an edit war for a "year and a half" in defence of version 2 I believe arbitration is the only solution here. CK 10:11, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This ongoing discussion clearly illustrates the matter has not been resolved, and the article should reflect that.
To address VV's specific points:
This encyclopaedia is not a place for you or I to push our own subjective interpretations of such on others. It seems that you've been here much longer than I - I shouldn't have to be lecturing you on the importance of NPOV to this project. CK 11:57, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Dispute resolution suggests conducting a survey at this point. Skimming over this extremely long talk: page and reviewing article history back to May it seems to me that VeryVerily is unlikely to back down if the consensus goes against him, but we should probably cross that T before diving straight into a request for arbitration. Who knows, it might even work. Bryan 00:21, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Re-indenting. [[User:Poccil| Peter O. ( Talk)]] 23:03, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
End of re-indenting. [[User:Poccil| Peter O. ( Talk)]] 23:03, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
After reading through both versions twice, it seems to me to be an open-and-shut case: version one conforms relatively well to the NPOV policy, presenting both of the opposing points of view. Version two appears to contain some heavy-handed editorializing, and the writer seems overly concerned that without the proper guidance, the reader may not arrive at the correct conclusion, i.e., that one point of view is vastly superior to the other. And, I'm amazed at the amount of hairsplitting going on on this talk page over the relatively minor differences between the two versions (the debate that runs way over to the right hand margin is a comic touch). -- Herschelkrustofsky 02:30, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Over on the Request for Arbitration VeryVerily has agreed to a survey, so I'm going to set one up. For the moment please do not vote; right now I'm just presenting the first draft for comment and modification (see Wikipedia:Survey guidelines).
Please comment and make suggestions; I went with a completely "bland" and detail-free question but if we can agree on a deeper issue to address that would be welcome. Bryan 01:37, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
<heavysarcasm>Here are some more examples of NPOV work, along the lines of CK's paragraphs above!:
And of course,
Isn't this fun? Let's get to work making this encyclopedia NPOV!</heavysarcasm> V V 08:30, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The following section was a proposed question for the survey that turned into a debate that more properly belongs here on the main talk. Bryan 02:15, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
(2) is where the breakdown occurs. The document does not say such an event would enable an administration to accelerate anything; it merely states such acceleration would occur. Of course the wording is also subtly spun to imply something that isn't there. (3) is flat wrong. V V 00:48, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Voting is stupid. And you're wrong, there's a difference between saying "thunder causes rain" and "thunder can be used to cause rain", as the latter implies the intervention of an agent. You're wholly distorting words re (3); the section is about use of technology in the military. V V 05:10, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is another thread that developed in response to a proposed question on the survey Bryan 02:19, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Verily's tiresome strawman pokes its ugly head up once more. VV is attempting to characterise the critics as either conspiracy theorists or those who have not read the report, ignoring the real critics. VV, please note that version 1 does not use such intellectually dishonest tactics: you don't see a qualifier like "supporters of the PNAC mistakenly argue that the phrase A New Pearl Harbor does not appear in any PNAC documents" in there, do you? CK 21:38, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There's a link to the infamous PNAC letter to Clinton at the bottom of the article. However, there's nothing in the article about it.
As the letter is so well known and is cited regularly by critics of the Bush administration as evidence that they had already decided to invade Iraq and oust Saddam well before 2001, surely a small paragraph on the letter should be included in this article? It's certainly a more credible theory than the "new Pearl Harbor" mudslinging.
How about this?
Kyz 10:18, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Guys, this has been protected for nearly a month now. When's it gonna be unprotected? I've wanted to make a tiny edit for weeks... Evercat 23:57, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
So, shall I unprotect the page or what? The arbitration request has five arbitrators out of nine having cast votes on whether to accept it now, so there may soon be progress on that front. On the other hand, I dislike leaving a version protected that's so widely considered to be POV. Bryan 05:23, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Please unprotect the article. If VeryVerily makes another unilateral reversion, as he certainly will, please restore the consensus agreed upon in this survey and freeze the article until VeryVerily has been banned. Shorne 19:04, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
May all be a moot point anyway, looks like the arbitration case on this issue was just accepted by ArbCom. Bryan 23:45, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I question the quote from Bremner, a comedianne. Is he a universally regarded Will Rogers type? I'm not unalterably opposed to the use of his quote, but would like to know the justification, it might come in handy in justifying other things elsewhere.-- Silverback 20:30, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Without elaboration or qualification, this is misleading because there was a lot of agreement in the international community. For instance, most would agree that Saddam still was not in compliance and had not been forthcoming, most would agree that inspections would not be going on at all if not for the expensive US troop buildup on the border. Yes, some thought given more time, inspections might make some more progress, some were willing to accept that the unaccounted for WMD might actually have been destroyed. This part should be at least qualified as "some in the international community" or better yet, more detail given. The link to the other wikipedia is more supportive of "some" than it is of painting the whole international community with one broad brush.-- Silverback 21:14, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The context of the criticism is to iterate and address criticism of the PNAC. It is not to randomly discuss PNAC documents.
There is a paragraph which begins "Many critics also claim that the PNAC believed this "new Pearl Harbor" would justify war on Iraq, but there is no evidence in the report to back up this assertion; on the subject of Iraq, ...". It follows this logical train of thought. It continues to describe the use of Iraq in the document, in reference to the central premise of the paragraph that critics are incorrect to claim an association between the PNAC's "new Pearl Harbour" quote and the PNAC's justification for attacking Iraq.
If any of the material in that paragraph is irrelevant to that premise, delete it. If cut the first clause from the paragraph and paste it on to the end of the prior paragraph, it becomes an uncorroborated statement followed by a meaningless paragraph.
I would like all the PNAC critics points to be clearly captured.
One point is that there is a lot of PNAC representation and presumably influence within the Bush administration. I think this is probably well documented in the article already.
Do the critics think that certain PNAC positions are explicit but not well known and need to be exposed? Which positions, do we have them all yet?
Do the critics think that PNAC positions are different or more extreme than they have made explicit, and that a fair inference can be made from evidence that supports this? The evidence and lines of reasoning should be presented.
Do the critics that Bush decisions would be different without PNAC influence, i.e., that he is not getting enough different viewpoints?
Do the critics suggest that Bush did not know that the PNAC members already had rather fixed ideas before he appointed them, i.e., they kept their "extreme" views secret?
Do the critics not believe that secrecy is involved at all, they just think there is a Secretary of State vs PNAC battle within the whitehouse and they want to make sure it is exposed, so that Secretary Powells viewpoint will get a fair hearing?
Hope this assists in developing a well presented framework.-- Silverback 18:30, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I don't think this category belongs. This is simply an American thinktank which, among many other things, has promoted foreign policy views on Iraq; it is not a state apparatus. Very Verily 09:03, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I added the category initially. I can't imagine why this is controversial. It seems to me that someone perusing the category US-Iraqi relations is quite likely to find this article of interest. Identifying such articles is the function of categories, it is not intended to "pigeon-hole" an article. The category does not indicate that PNAC is exclusively concerned with Iraq. Other categories may also be relevant. If for some reason you think this article would not be of particular interest to someone interested in US-Iraqi relations, I'd be interested to know why. Adding category back for now. Wolfman 04:01, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)