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I think this new section has to be removed. Any thoughts? 93.183.236.88 ( talk) 19:56, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
I can see value in, and difficulties with, an additional column showing the engine power for the variant that achieved the top speed shewn. Greglocock ( talk) 03:43, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
This entry has no quotation and it conflicts with following Mercedes 300SL. Perhaps we should remove it, if no sources can confirm that at least 20 of them were capable of reaching claimed top speed? 93.183.236.88 ( talk) 04:57, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Somebody decided that to qualify a minimum of 20 cars should have been produced to the same spec as the one that set the speed shown. That is of course an arbitrary number, and in the case of some cars is impossible to reach, and in many more, impossible to verify. If one were to pick a number then the FIA has occasionally set required production numbers, and it is usually far greater than 20. But I think that is misleading, the requirement should be, not how many were made, or bought, but whether they were merely available as a homologated model from the OEM. If you could walk into the dealership and tick the box for the relvant options that is good enough, in my opinion. Greglocock ( talk) 04:50, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Is there a contemporaneous WP:RS that supports the car's inclusion here? I can't find one. The Motor's article (which the XK's entry cites) says only that it was the fastest car tested by the magazine. Porter (p.12) ties the "fastest production car in the world" claim to the "splendid publicity stunt" of the Jabbeke runs laid on for the press. In fact it's the Jabbeke stunt that is routinely (and erroneously, given the car's special preparation) cited in support of the claim; not the road test article. Writegeist ( talk) 17:02, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
I see the Jag has crept back in with a 133mph claim - the 1949 test was not a production model - should it be reverted? NealeFamily ( talk) 21:32, 12 August 2012 (UTC) It was unreferenced before. I felt it had to be included when I discovered that quote in The Guinness book. I think it sums up very succinctly the scientific nature of this entire list. Mighty Antar ( talk) 22:03, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Deindent- ok, attempt to build consensus, sourcing problems apart, who thinks that the XK120 was (a) a production car and (b) probably, on balance the fastest production car up until then? If not, what other contenders are there? Model T? Greglocock ( talk) 22:22, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Up until 1960 there was a reasonable percentage of fast cars built in the coachwork tradition, whereby the manufacturer assembled a chassis and powertrain, and then the customer or other party selected a builder for the bodywork and interior. As such, these cars hardly conform to the mass production ideal. So, do coachbuilt cars count as production cars? Greglocock ( talk) 04:53, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
I think it looks rather strange that the Koenigsegg broke the record of 391 km/h with a speed of 388 km/h. The McLaren may have reached a higher speed after the Koenigsegg broke the record, but the actual record that was broken, according to the article cited in the report of the Koenigsegg record, was 386.7 km/h.
Exactly where is it specified that all entries on this list need cites, and exactly when did it become the custom on wiki to remove uncited statements rather than add cn tags? I'm not quite sure what purpose removing the placeholder cars there had, (ie model A model T, merc ss) as they merely provide entries on the graph of speed vs time. others can quickly build on them. If I do not receive a satisfactory answer to both questions i shall reinstate them. Greglocock ( talk) 08:20, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
The placeholders are worthless; either the information is present or the entries are only misleading people not savvy enough to realise that in a list of speed records, several aren't records at all. Like placing a mouse on a list of the largest mammals because people here haven't figured out what those animals were just yet. Never fear; it's just "temporary" and "for comparison!" 97.71.73.46 ( talk) 06:10, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
There is no problem with IPs editing this article, but other editors should be aware that many of the IPs editing this article are all associated with one physical address, according to whois. If the editor(s) concerned doesn't like that sort of information being disclosed then he is welcome to create an account as he will then be untraceable in the external world, and identifiable on wiki. Greglocock ( talk) 02:38, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Up until now I have been adding early production cars to the list, but since they are not explicitly described as "world's fastest" in an RS they are being challenged. here's the data. If we build consensus that it can be included and then improved great. if not, not. Greglocock ( talk) 03:01, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Year | Make and model | Top Speed of production car | Number built | Comment |
---|---|---|---|---|
1901 | Mercedes 35 hp | 53.5 mph (86 km/h) [1] | 36 | |
1902 | Mercedes Simplex | 111.8 km/h (69 mph) | ? | |
1906 | Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost | 78.2 mph (126 km/h) [2] | 7874 | |
1919 | Hispano-Suiza H6B | 85 mph (137 km/h) | ||
1921 | Bentley 3 Litre Speed Model | 90 mph (145 km/h) | 513 | |
1924 | Hispano-Suiza H6C | 110 mph (177 km/h) | ||
1926 | Bentley Speed Six | 125 mph (201 km/h) [3] | 182 | |
1929 | Blower Bentley | 130 mph (209 km/h) [4] | 55 |
The 1929 Blower Bentley that achieved 137.96mph was the racing version and not the production one - it should be excluded.The website for the Bentley Speed Six does not specify which version's speed was being used. It also had a racing version. The top speed for road versions of the Bentley's were 3 litre - 80mph, Speed Six - 84mph, and 4.5 litre 92mph according to The Complete Catolgue of British Cars by David Culshaw and Peter Horrobin, 1974 edition. The Hispano-Suiza's cited also appear to be the racing version. NealeFamily ( talk) 20:09, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
I am new to wikipedia, how to post and write content. Given this I hope for understanding if I happen to make a misstake or two.
I would like to raise questions regarding the 20 car production limit set on the list of the worlds fastest production cars and associated lists. I consider myself well informed to what makes a car a production car or not. There is no general consensus or international reuglation that there must be a series of 20 cars of the same specification to become a production car, and this method of categorizing truly miss out on some vital point of what makes a car a production car or not. For example the two most known institutions for production car speed records - The Guinness Book of Records and the FIA does not share the minimum 20 car limit view.
I assume the notion of: "minimum 20 cars production run in order to be considered a production car model", comes from previous FIA regulations for certain racing car classes. However this has nothing to do with what a production car really is, and this FIA regulation is actually no longer in effect, as far as I am aware. Actually, I believe FIA changed this type of regulation from 20 cars in total to 350 cars yearly production runs in order to be eligble for this type of racing. Therefore if the 20 car limit in the fastest production car list came from FIA regulations, then I guess the limit should now be changed to a minimum production series of 350 cars per year, following this logic. Thereby excluding most of the cars on the list.
However, following the FIA´s varying racing regulations, is not what I believe to be correct for the selection of cars for this list as it misses many important factors. Instead the critera should focus on what actually make a car a production car. There are many more nuanced and relevant factors than a certain production number. I would like to bring up a few suggestion to what the criterias could or should be from my perspective. There are quite many aspects to consider and actually I do no believe all has to be fullfilled in order for a car to be considered a production car, as long as most of them are accounted for.
What I would propose is a tick off list. A certain amount of tick offs has to be in place in order for a car to be considered a production car. Below you will find a suggestion to such a list:
Cars newer than 1980: 1. Was/is the car model produced by a registered company? 2. Has the car model been produced in multiple entitites? 3. Can/could the car model be registered for road use in more than one country? 4. Was the car model officially sold to customers in more than one country? 5. Did/do the car model come with a user manual? 6. Did/do the car model have EPA or CARB approval? 7. Did/do the car model comply with NHTSA regulation at the time of production/sale? 8. Did/Do the car model come with a EU COC(Conformity of Production) document? 9. Was the car model ever crash tested by an independent test facility? 10.Did the car model pass emission testing in any country?
My suggestion is that at least 7 of the 10 points above has to be ticked with a yes, in order for a car to be considered a production car model.
Cars older than 1980: 1. Was/is the car model produced by a registered company? 2. Has the car model been produced in multiple entitites? 3. Can/could the car model be registered for road use in more than one country? 4. Was the car model officially sold to customers in more than one country? 5. Did/do the car model come with a user manual? 6. Was the car model ever crash tested? 7. Did the car model pass any emission testing in any country?
My suggestion is that at least 4 of the 7 points above has to be ticked with a yes, in order for a car to be considered a production car model.
Given the above I would propose that the critera for what is a production car model is changed.
posted by: Speed Racer — Preceding unsigned comment added by Speed Racer ( talk • contribs) 10:05, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Hi IP-93.xxx, I agree the criteras I suggest can be discussed and optimized. However I do not understand why only one car between 1969-2005 would qualify according to yourself. I think there is a missunderstanding here. As I wrote only 7 of the 10 criterias would have to be meet on the cars after 1980 and before 1980 there is simplified shorter list. For example, If we take the cars produced after 1980, that is presently on the fastest production car list, as it is now, all these cars would still qualify(as they all tick at least 7 "boxes"): Ferrari 288 GTO, Porsche 959, Ferrari F40, Bugatti EB 110 GT, Jaguar XJ220, Mclaren F1, Bugatti Veyron, Bugatti Veyron Super Sport and perhaps The Ultimate Aero, which is the only car I am unsure about in regards to some of the points. When it comes to older cars than 1980 I am sure most of the cars on the list presently would be able to tick 4 of the 7 points below:
Cars older than 1980: 1. Was/is the car model produced by a registered company? 2. Has the car model been produced in multiple entitites? 3. Can/could the car model be registered for road use in more than one country? 4. Was the car model officially sold to customers in more than one country? 5. Did/do the car model come with a user manual? 6. Was the car model ever crash tested? 7. Did the car model pass any emission testing in any country?
As written above only 4 points needed to pass.
Please advise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Speed Racer ( talk • contribs) 14:10, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm reviving this subject again. I was thinking more about it and was talking with some people (call it my personal research) as to the opinions of which models are most commonly considered to be the fastest production cars. And the result doesn't match this list well. For most people, it's Veyron SSRE that is the fastest car currently, not Veyron SS. And, apparently, Ultimate Aero TT was the one before. With our definition of the production car, we make a nice list, that is of no interest to anyone on this planet except, maybe, for those who made an agreement on the current definition that we use. But than again, at the time the agreement was reached for the 20 cars limit, there was no Veyron or Aero yet. Even Koenigsegg had not made it's record run. And this derived definition matched well the previous history of the cars that are generally accepted to be the fastest production models. But since it now fails to represent what majority thinks, perhaps it's really time to change the definition? In other words, Speed Racer is probably right - we have a valid, but pretty synthetic list that does not represent general opinion.
So let's assume that current definition is outdated. We have to come up with the new one, that would match all the models of past and present, that were generally accepted to be the fastest ones. I'm pretty sure, that was the way of thinking of those, who came up with the 20 cars definition many years ago, as it matched it very well back then. So I made some thoughts in this direction.
Apparently, we can't use a production number as a deciding criterion. We'd have to go very low to include CCR and UATT. And going this low would enable some obscure models to spoil the table (like 917 or Dauer 962 or RUF CTR etc.). So instead of the number we have to apply some other rules to exclude them. These rules must be simple, unambiguous and easily applicable to any car. First let's think of what we have to exclude?
1. Prototypes. These are always made in exactly 1 sample to the same specification. Yes, some models had multiple prototypes, but they were all different. I can't recall any prototype to be made in two, identical copies. So the production of at least 2 of the cars to exactly same specification would probably exclude all prototypes.
2. Racer conversions. Like Porsche 917, Dauer and many others. We could state that the car should be developed from the ground for the road use and not as a modification of the model initially developed for racing. That may be a bit ambiguous as, for example, Ferrari 288 and Porsche 959 both evolved from the originally racing model developments. But if we say that there should be no racing version that predates the road model, it may solve all the ambiguity. Neither 288 nor 959 were predated by the racing versions. While 917, Dauer and even XJR-15 were. So these all are effectively excluded with no impact on all currently present entries. As none of them was predated by the racing version.
3. Modified cars. Apparently, with 2 cars requirement, lots of these can jump in. But we already have a rule to exclude them. Basically, the model should be developed and made from the scratch by the manufacturer. No RUF's can go here as all of them are made by tweaking the chassis bought from Porsche or taken directly from the customer. So these stay out safely.
And that's probably it. So here's the definition based on these thoughts of mine.
The production car is the model that was built in numbers not less than 2 to the same specification, was originally developed and built by the original manufacturer and was not based on the racing model nor predated by the racing version of it.
What do you think? Have I missed some loopholes for the "wrong" cars to sneak in? Is it generally acceptable? Can we improve it?
IP-93.183.236.121 (
talk)
09:33, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
I think the only mentioning of the production run of this model on public was 24, and it was before they actually started to build them. So it was a plan to build that much. This was mentioned in many sources back at the day it broke the record. For example http://web.archive.org/web/20080207072646/http://news.windingroad.com/auto-news/ssc-ultimate-aero-tt-supercar-up-for-bids-on-ebay/ . The question is, can we trust it? On one hand, it's only a plan. On the other, we do trust all other manufacturers, since most of the production numbers we have nowhere else to take from, except for them. So it seems to me, that unless we have some strong facts that can put manufacturers claim in question, we should accept it. What do you think? IP-93.183.236.121 ( talk) 06:28, 23 October 2012 (UTC) Another mentioning of plans to build 25 of them: http://www.supercars.net/cars/3621.html IP-93.183.236.121 ( talk) 06:36, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
One more thought to the pot. It is not clear whether they were planing to build 25 Ultimate Aero's or Ultimate Aero TT's. Furthermore, there no such distinction on the SSC website. They simply call them all Ultimate Aero. But it is known that prior to TT it had less powerful engine and apparently, was not capable of the TT record top speed. So if there was actually a 25 cars production run, how many of them were TT's? IP-93.183.236.121 ( talk) 08:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
Ok guys. I think we have it. Here's the link: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/08/driving-the-ssc-ultimate-aero-worlds-second-fastest-car/1#.UId7fsXMh8E According to it, Jerod confesses that he had actually built 15 cars in total before Tuatara. And that includes all Aeros, not TT's and even not Ultimates. That's the reference we were looking for. I have removed it from the list. IP-93.183.236.121 ( talk) 05:37, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
For editors who keep changing the Bugatti's top speed. Please read the introductory paragraphs which outline the parameters for inclusion in the list. While they are not perfect and have been debated at length in these talk pages they are the best a collection of editors have been able to come up with in order to try to keep the list reasonably meaningful. By all means feel free to reopen the debate, but have a read of the comments of those who have gone before you first. NealeFamily ( talk) 10:06, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Even though most Veyron SS' were sold with a (removable) rev limiter, there are 5 to prove the other 25 can hit that speed. The so called "World Record Edition" is nothing more than a paint job. Originally Bugatti sold all 30 with the speed limiter. That was deactivated on all five WRE cars, but you can (that is, if you own one) ask Bugatti do deactivate it on others. There are no mechanical differences between those 30 models, just a little piece of software. The verified record should stand.
I'm fairly sure I remember Autocar magazine maxing a Muira at 172 mph. Am I hallucinating again? Mr Larrington ( talk) 13:29, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Just a note for reference.
There a number of cars made during the 1950's that could have higher top speeds than those on the list. These include the Ferrari America series, Maserati 5000, and Pegaso Z-102. The reasons they are not included are either less than 20 produced of the particular model/version, no independent road tests, or road tests of racing/modified versions only. NealeFamily ( talk) 19:32, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I have recently stumbled upon this article about Maserati 5000 GT:
http://www.maserati-indy.co.uk/alfieri70.htm
It mentions following:
Whilst being given a test drive on the 'Autostrada del Sole' by Maserati test driver, Guerino Bertocchi, Hans Tanner, the noted motoring author, timed one kilometre at 168 mph and another at 172.4 mph
I'm not sure if this source is enough to accept at least the lowest figure (168 mph) as objective. I think it is (we have not much better references for some other old cars after all), but still I want some opinions on talk before adding it to the table.
34 of them were produced, 22 with the same coach and engine, so it is easily a production car.
If accepted, it will beat DB4 and Iso Grifo since the production version was available in 1960.
What do you think?
IP-93.183.236.121 (
talk)
08:15, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
According to Aston Martin website (
http://www.astonmartin.com/heritage/past-models/db4gt), thee were only 19 DB4 Zagato's produced. Also, according to other sources, most of them were racers (not street legal).
Removing?
IP-93.183.236.121 (
talk)
16:50, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Need to check out the E-type which was replaced by this as well. NealeFamily ( talk) 23:17, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
I think it's going too far. There were some quite interesting and useful discussions here that are now archived and, virtually absent for most visitors. We've had a nice table of pre-WWII cars for example. Also discussions about production car definition are all gone now. Now people wondering why is it 20 cars can't easily find out all the history of this requirement. Perhaps someone could stop that bot from annihilating this talk? And maybe resurrecting some of the most important sections from the archive would be a good idea too? IP-93.183.236.121 ( talk) 06:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
The Hennessey Venom GT is NOT the fastest production car. The Veyron SS can hit 431 km/h on a 2-way average (required for certification). The Venom GT hit 427.6 km/h on a one-way run. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.196.93.147 ( talk) 11:41, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
There are no more than 10 (possibly less) Venom GTs built. The run was not verified by any independent organization. It was a single run, as opposed to the mandatory two-way run. The car did its run without catalytic converters and therefore it was not road legal. The Venom GT in ineligible for this list. Please stop trying to add it to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.196.93.147 ( talk) 15:32, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Can you please clarify something for me as I am a little confused about the validity of the Venom being a true production car? Hennessey is a car tuning company as evident on their website http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/ and it is no secret that the Venom is hardly a car they have built from scratch rather they have bastardised (pardon my french) a Lotus Exige chassis and heavily modified it by various means (lengthened wheel base, 7 litre engine, etc.) for their purposes of creating the Venom. Every other car on the list as far as I can tell is manufactured from scratch (perhaps utilising some parts from within the companies own car stock parts) by "Car Manufacturers" not "Car Tuners." By including the Venom are we opening a can of worms by now having to go back through history and consider other automobiles produced by Car Tuners (RUF Yellowbird as an example) if they meet the minimum of 20 cars produced? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.149.90.110 ( talk) 11:03, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
RUF has been certified in Germany as a Car manufacturer. Does Hennessey have the same distinction? The differences between tuner and manufacturer have become blurred in these cases particularly given that lotus sells their chassis to others. It does say in the first paragraph of this page that a production car is neither a concept or modified car. Perhaps some guidelines about the latter need to be made clear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.149.90.110 ( talk) 22:42, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Can you guys or girls cut your edit war!!! Yes I am shouting - The Hennessey is likely to qualify if the produce 20 of the same model. To date they have only stated that they intend to. When they do then they may qualify.
As to the significance of whether or not a tuners vehicles qualify. Provided they verifiably (reliable source required) produce 20 road worthy versions with the same basic specifications, and they have an independent road test then they may well qualify. I think the definition for the list is reasonably clear, but happy to continue the discussion. NealeFamily ( talk) 01:03, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
OK I generally don't allow myself to get drawn into these edit wars, but can someone please tell me why 1) the Hennessey Venom has been reintroduced to the list and 2) why the Bugatti Veyron SS still has its top speed listed as 258 mph when Guinness themselves have retracted their previous stance of that model being modified having it reclaim the #1 position with 268 mph? Can we not make some progression here? I would like to see something near the original list posted a few years ago. Lets just have the history of fastest cars with a couple of extra columns showing number of cars in the production run and also the manufacturers claimed top speed along any verified numbers from independent resources such as automobile magazines, Guinness, etc. Give everyone the info and let them make up their own minds as to which makes and models belong, similar to the fastest cars by acceleration page, and be done with this SAGA!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.7.177.64 ( talk) 10:37, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
beacuase (1) an editor thinks the hennessy satisfies the criterion for this list (20 production cars sold (it obviously doesn't)) or doesn't care, (2) the version of the german car that meets the criterion of this list hit 258. Guinness use another criterion which they are unwilling to reveal to us. Your proposal would lead to this being a list of 'fast cars we like', which would get speedily deleted. Greglocock ( talk) 02:49, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
I would dispute your last comment of the list being fast cars that we like. Most manufacturers haven't claimed to make the fastest production car and those that have would at least have some sort of credibility and/or an independent assessment as I mentioned. The fastest cars by acceleration list doesn't appear to be a "list of cars they like" in fact it is exactly what it is meant to be, a list of cars by acceleration (maunfacturer claimed or otherwise). I admire the editor's ambition in make this list accurate, but what good is it if there are glaringly obvious omissions that most, including Guinness consider historical holders of the title in question. By having those cars omitted essentially makes this list pointless. If a consensus is reached then from my perspective this list will be the authority people turn to if their interests lie with this topic and we can dispense with the rest of the bogus rubbish floating around on the net.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
I think this new section has to be removed. Any thoughts? 93.183.236.88 ( talk) 19:56, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
I can see value in, and difficulties with, an additional column showing the engine power for the variant that achieved the top speed shewn. Greglocock ( talk) 03:43, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
This entry has no quotation and it conflicts with following Mercedes 300SL. Perhaps we should remove it, if no sources can confirm that at least 20 of them were capable of reaching claimed top speed? 93.183.236.88 ( talk) 04:57, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Somebody decided that to qualify a minimum of 20 cars should have been produced to the same spec as the one that set the speed shown. That is of course an arbitrary number, and in the case of some cars is impossible to reach, and in many more, impossible to verify. If one were to pick a number then the FIA has occasionally set required production numbers, and it is usually far greater than 20. But I think that is misleading, the requirement should be, not how many were made, or bought, but whether they were merely available as a homologated model from the OEM. If you could walk into the dealership and tick the box for the relvant options that is good enough, in my opinion. Greglocock ( talk) 04:50, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
Is there a contemporaneous WP:RS that supports the car's inclusion here? I can't find one. The Motor's article (which the XK's entry cites) says only that it was the fastest car tested by the magazine. Porter (p.12) ties the "fastest production car in the world" claim to the "splendid publicity stunt" of the Jabbeke runs laid on for the press. In fact it's the Jabbeke stunt that is routinely (and erroneously, given the car's special preparation) cited in support of the claim; not the road test article. Writegeist ( talk) 17:02, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
I see the Jag has crept back in with a 133mph claim - the 1949 test was not a production model - should it be reverted? NealeFamily ( talk) 21:32, 12 August 2012 (UTC) It was unreferenced before. I felt it had to be included when I discovered that quote in The Guinness book. I think it sums up very succinctly the scientific nature of this entire list. Mighty Antar ( talk) 22:03, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
Deindent- ok, attempt to build consensus, sourcing problems apart, who thinks that the XK120 was (a) a production car and (b) probably, on balance the fastest production car up until then? If not, what other contenders are there? Model T? Greglocock ( talk) 22:22, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
Up until 1960 there was a reasonable percentage of fast cars built in the coachwork tradition, whereby the manufacturer assembled a chassis and powertrain, and then the customer or other party selected a builder for the bodywork and interior. As such, these cars hardly conform to the mass production ideal. So, do coachbuilt cars count as production cars? Greglocock ( talk) 04:53, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
I think it looks rather strange that the Koenigsegg broke the record of 391 km/h with a speed of 388 km/h. The McLaren may have reached a higher speed after the Koenigsegg broke the record, but the actual record that was broken, according to the article cited in the report of the Koenigsegg record, was 386.7 km/h.
Exactly where is it specified that all entries on this list need cites, and exactly when did it become the custom on wiki to remove uncited statements rather than add cn tags? I'm not quite sure what purpose removing the placeholder cars there had, (ie model A model T, merc ss) as they merely provide entries on the graph of speed vs time. others can quickly build on them. If I do not receive a satisfactory answer to both questions i shall reinstate them. Greglocock ( talk) 08:20, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
The placeholders are worthless; either the information is present or the entries are only misleading people not savvy enough to realise that in a list of speed records, several aren't records at all. Like placing a mouse on a list of the largest mammals because people here haven't figured out what those animals were just yet. Never fear; it's just "temporary" and "for comparison!" 97.71.73.46 ( talk) 06:10, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
There is no problem with IPs editing this article, but other editors should be aware that many of the IPs editing this article are all associated with one physical address, according to whois. If the editor(s) concerned doesn't like that sort of information being disclosed then he is welcome to create an account as he will then be untraceable in the external world, and identifiable on wiki. Greglocock ( talk) 02:38, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Up until now I have been adding early production cars to the list, but since they are not explicitly described as "world's fastest" in an RS they are being challenged. here's the data. If we build consensus that it can be included and then improved great. if not, not. Greglocock ( talk) 03:01, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Year | Make and model | Top Speed of production car | Number built | Comment |
---|---|---|---|---|
1901 | Mercedes 35 hp | 53.5 mph (86 km/h) [1] | 36 | |
1902 | Mercedes Simplex | 111.8 km/h (69 mph) | ? | |
1906 | Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost | 78.2 mph (126 km/h) [2] | 7874 | |
1919 | Hispano-Suiza H6B | 85 mph (137 km/h) | ||
1921 | Bentley 3 Litre Speed Model | 90 mph (145 km/h) | 513 | |
1924 | Hispano-Suiza H6C | 110 mph (177 km/h) | ||
1926 | Bentley Speed Six | 125 mph (201 km/h) [3] | 182 | |
1929 | Blower Bentley | 130 mph (209 km/h) [4] | 55 |
The 1929 Blower Bentley that achieved 137.96mph was the racing version and not the production one - it should be excluded.The website for the Bentley Speed Six does not specify which version's speed was being used. It also had a racing version. The top speed for road versions of the Bentley's were 3 litre - 80mph, Speed Six - 84mph, and 4.5 litre 92mph according to The Complete Catolgue of British Cars by David Culshaw and Peter Horrobin, 1974 edition. The Hispano-Suiza's cited also appear to be the racing version. NealeFamily ( talk) 20:09, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
I am new to wikipedia, how to post and write content. Given this I hope for understanding if I happen to make a misstake or two.
I would like to raise questions regarding the 20 car production limit set on the list of the worlds fastest production cars and associated lists. I consider myself well informed to what makes a car a production car or not. There is no general consensus or international reuglation that there must be a series of 20 cars of the same specification to become a production car, and this method of categorizing truly miss out on some vital point of what makes a car a production car or not. For example the two most known institutions for production car speed records - The Guinness Book of Records and the FIA does not share the minimum 20 car limit view.
I assume the notion of: "minimum 20 cars production run in order to be considered a production car model", comes from previous FIA regulations for certain racing car classes. However this has nothing to do with what a production car really is, and this FIA regulation is actually no longer in effect, as far as I am aware. Actually, I believe FIA changed this type of regulation from 20 cars in total to 350 cars yearly production runs in order to be eligble for this type of racing. Therefore if the 20 car limit in the fastest production car list came from FIA regulations, then I guess the limit should now be changed to a minimum production series of 350 cars per year, following this logic. Thereby excluding most of the cars on the list.
However, following the FIA´s varying racing regulations, is not what I believe to be correct for the selection of cars for this list as it misses many important factors. Instead the critera should focus on what actually make a car a production car. There are many more nuanced and relevant factors than a certain production number. I would like to bring up a few suggestion to what the criterias could or should be from my perspective. There are quite many aspects to consider and actually I do no believe all has to be fullfilled in order for a car to be considered a production car, as long as most of them are accounted for.
What I would propose is a tick off list. A certain amount of tick offs has to be in place in order for a car to be considered a production car. Below you will find a suggestion to such a list:
Cars newer than 1980: 1. Was/is the car model produced by a registered company? 2. Has the car model been produced in multiple entitites? 3. Can/could the car model be registered for road use in more than one country? 4. Was the car model officially sold to customers in more than one country? 5. Did/do the car model come with a user manual? 6. Did/do the car model have EPA or CARB approval? 7. Did/do the car model comply with NHTSA regulation at the time of production/sale? 8. Did/Do the car model come with a EU COC(Conformity of Production) document? 9. Was the car model ever crash tested by an independent test facility? 10.Did the car model pass emission testing in any country?
My suggestion is that at least 7 of the 10 points above has to be ticked with a yes, in order for a car to be considered a production car model.
Cars older than 1980: 1. Was/is the car model produced by a registered company? 2. Has the car model been produced in multiple entitites? 3. Can/could the car model be registered for road use in more than one country? 4. Was the car model officially sold to customers in more than one country? 5. Did/do the car model come with a user manual? 6. Was the car model ever crash tested? 7. Did the car model pass any emission testing in any country?
My suggestion is that at least 4 of the 7 points above has to be ticked with a yes, in order for a car to be considered a production car model.
Given the above I would propose that the critera for what is a production car model is changed.
posted by: Speed Racer — Preceding unsigned comment added by Speed Racer ( talk • contribs) 10:05, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Hi IP-93.xxx, I agree the criteras I suggest can be discussed and optimized. However I do not understand why only one car between 1969-2005 would qualify according to yourself. I think there is a missunderstanding here. As I wrote only 7 of the 10 criterias would have to be meet on the cars after 1980 and before 1980 there is simplified shorter list. For example, If we take the cars produced after 1980, that is presently on the fastest production car list, as it is now, all these cars would still qualify(as they all tick at least 7 "boxes"): Ferrari 288 GTO, Porsche 959, Ferrari F40, Bugatti EB 110 GT, Jaguar XJ220, Mclaren F1, Bugatti Veyron, Bugatti Veyron Super Sport and perhaps The Ultimate Aero, which is the only car I am unsure about in regards to some of the points. When it comes to older cars than 1980 I am sure most of the cars on the list presently would be able to tick 4 of the 7 points below:
Cars older than 1980: 1. Was/is the car model produced by a registered company? 2. Has the car model been produced in multiple entitites? 3. Can/could the car model be registered for road use in more than one country? 4. Was the car model officially sold to customers in more than one country? 5. Did/do the car model come with a user manual? 6. Was the car model ever crash tested? 7. Did the car model pass any emission testing in any country?
As written above only 4 points needed to pass.
Please advise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Speed Racer ( talk • contribs) 14:10, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm reviving this subject again. I was thinking more about it and was talking with some people (call it my personal research) as to the opinions of which models are most commonly considered to be the fastest production cars. And the result doesn't match this list well. For most people, it's Veyron SSRE that is the fastest car currently, not Veyron SS. And, apparently, Ultimate Aero TT was the one before. With our definition of the production car, we make a nice list, that is of no interest to anyone on this planet except, maybe, for those who made an agreement on the current definition that we use. But than again, at the time the agreement was reached for the 20 cars limit, there was no Veyron or Aero yet. Even Koenigsegg had not made it's record run. And this derived definition matched well the previous history of the cars that are generally accepted to be the fastest production models. But since it now fails to represent what majority thinks, perhaps it's really time to change the definition? In other words, Speed Racer is probably right - we have a valid, but pretty synthetic list that does not represent general opinion.
So let's assume that current definition is outdated. We have to come up with the new one, that would match all the models of past and present, that were generally accepted to be the fastest ones. I'm pretty sure, that was the way of thinking of those, who came up with the 20 cars definition many years ago, as it matched it very well back then. So I made some thoughts in this direction.
Apparently, we can't use a production number as a deciding criterion. We'd have to go very low to include CCR and UATT. And going this low would enable some obscure models to spoil the table (like 917 or Dauer 962 or RUF CTR etc.). So instead of the number we have to apply some other rules to exclude them. These rules must be simple, unambiguous and easily applicable to any car. First let's think of what we have to exclude?
1. Prototypes. These are always made in exactly 1 sample to the same specification. Yes, some models had multiple prototypes, but they were all different. I can't recall any prototype to be made in two, identical copies. So the production of at least 2 of the cars to exactly same specification would probably exclude all prototypes.
2. Racer conversions. Like Porsche 917, Dauer and many others. We could state that the car should be developed from the ground for the road use and not as a modification of the model initially developed for racing. That may be a bit ambiguous as, for example, Ferrari 288 and Porsche 959 both evolved from the originally racing model developments. But if we say that there should be no racing version that predates the road model, it may solve all the ambiguity. Neither 288 nor 959 were predated by the racing versions. While 917, Dauer and even XJR-15 were. So these all are effectively excluded with no impact on all currently present entries. As none of them was predated by the racing version.
3. Modified cars. Apparently, with 2 cars requirement, lots of these can jump in. But we already have a rule to exclude them. Basically, the model should be developed and made from the scratch by the manufacturer. No RUF's can go here as all of them are made by tweaking the chassis bought from Porsche or taken directly from the customer. So these stay out safely.
And that's probably it. So here's the definition based on these thoughts of mine.
The production car is the model that was built in numbers not less than 2 to the same specification, was originally developed and built by the original manufacturer and was not based on the racing model nor predated by the racing version of it.
What do you think? Have I missed some loopholes for the "wrong" cars to sneak in? Is it generally acceptable? Can we improve it?
IP-93.183.236.121 (
talk)
09:33, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
I think the only mentioning of the production run of this model on public was 24, and it was before they actually started to build them. So it was a plan to build that much. This was mentioned in many sources back at the day it broke the record. For example http://web.archive.org/web/20080207072646/http://news.windingroad.com/auto-news/ssc-ultimate-aero-tt-supercar-up-for-bids-on-ebay/ . The question is, can we trust it? On one hand, it's only a plan. On the other, we do trust all other manufacturers, since most of the production numbers we have nowhere else to take from, except for them. So it seems to me, that unless we have some strong facts that can put manufacturers claim in question, we should accept it. What do you think? IP-93.183.236.121 ( talk) 06:28, 23 October 2012 (UTC) Another mentioning of plans to build 25 of them: http://www.supercars.net/cars/3621.html IP-93.183.236.121 ( talk) 06:36, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
One more thought to the pot. It is not clear whether they were planing to build 25 Ultimate Aero's or Ultimate Aero TT's. Furthermore, there no such distinction on the SSC website. They simply call them all Ultimate Aero. But it is known that prior to TT it had less powerful engine and apparently, was not capable of the TT record top speed. So if there was actually a 25 cars production run, how many of them were TT's? IP-93.183.236.121 ( talk) 08:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
Ok guys. I think we have it. Here's the link: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/08/driving-the-ssc-ultimate-aero-worlds-second-fastest-car/1#.UId7fsXMh8E According to it, Jerod confesses that he had actually built 15 cars in total before Tuatara. And that includes all Aeros, not TT's and even not Ultimates. That's the reference we were looking for. I have removed it from the list. IP-93.183.236.121 ( talk) 05:37, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
For editors who keep changing the Bugatti's top speed. Please read the introductory paragraphs which outline the parameters for inclusion in the list. While they are not perfect and have been debated at length in these talk pages they are the best a collection of editors have been able to come up with in order to try to keep the list reasonably meaningful. By all means feel free to reopen the debate, but have a read of the comments of those who have gone before you first. NealeFamily ( talk) 10:06, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
Even though most Veyron SS' were sold with a (removable) rev limiter, there are 5 to prove the other 25 can hit that speed. The so called "World Record Edition" is nothing more than a paint job. Originally Bugatti sold all 30 with the speed limiter. That was deactivated on all five WRE cars, but you can (that is, if you own one) ask Bugatti do deactivate it on others. There are no mechanical differences between those 30 models, just a little piece of software. The verified record should stand.
I'm fairly sure I remember Autocar magazine maxing a Muira at 172 mph. Am I hallucinating again? Mr Larrington ( talk) 13:29, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Just a note for reference.
There a number of cars made during the 1950's that could have higher top speeds than those on the list. These include the Ferrari America series, Maserati 5000, and Pegaso Z-102. The reasons they are not included are either less than 20 produced of the particular model/version, no independent road tests, or road tests of racing/modified versions only. NealeFamily ( talk) 19:32, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
I have recently stumbled upon this article about Maserati 5000 GT:
http://www.maserati-indy.co.uk/alfieri70.htm
It mentions following:
Whilst being given a test drive on the 'Autostrada del Sole' by Maserati test driver, Guerino Bertocchi, Hans Tanner, the noted motoring author, timed one kilometre at 168 mph and another at 172.4 mph
I'm not sure if this source is enough to accept at least the lowest figure (168 mph) as objective. I think it is (we have not much better references for some other old cars after all), but still I want some opinions on talk before adding it to the table.
34 of them were produced, 22 with the same coach and engine, so it is easily a production car.
If accepted, it will beat DB4 and Iso Grifo since the production version was available in 1960.
What do you think?
IP-93.183.236.121 (
talk)
08:15, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
According to Aston Martin website (
http://www.astonmartin.com/heritage/past-models/db4gt), thee were only 19 DB4 Zagato's produced. Also, according to other sources, most of them were racers (not street legal).
Removing?
IP-93.183.236.121 (
talk)
16:50, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Need to check out the E-type which was replaced by this as well. NealeFamily ( talk) 23:17, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
I think it's going too far. There were some quite interesting and useful discussions here that are now archived and, virtually absent for most visitors. We've had a nice table of pre-WWII cars for example. Also discussions about production car definition are all gone now. Now people wondering why is it 20 cars can't easily find out all the history of this requirement. Perhaps someone could stop that bot from annihilating this talk? And maybe resurrecting some of the most important sections from the archive would be a good idea too? IP-93.183.236.121 ( talk) 06:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
The Hennessey Venom GT is NOT the fastest production car. The Veyron SS can hit 431 km/h on a 2-way average (required for certification). The Venom GT hit 427.6 km/h on a one-way run. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.196.93.147 ( talk) 11:41, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
There are no more than 10 (possibly less) Venom GTs built. The run was not verified by any independent organization. It was a single run, as opposed to the mandatory two-way run. The car did its run without catalytic converters and therefore it was not road legal. The Venom GT in ineligible for this list. Please stop trying to add it to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.196.93.147 ( talk) 15:32, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Can you please clarify something for me as I am a little confused about the validity of the Venom being a true production car? Hennessey is a car tuning company as evident on their website http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/ and it is no secret that the Venom is hardly a car they have built from scratch rather they have bastardised (pardon my french) a Lotus Exige chassis and heavily modified it by various means (lengthened wheel base, 7 litre engine, etc.) for their purposes of creating the Venom. Every other car on the list as far as I can tell is manufactured from scratch (perhaps utilising some parts from within the companies own car stock parts) by "Car Manufacturers" not "Car Tuners." By including the Venom are we opening a can of worms by now having to go back through history and consider other automobiles produced by Car Tuners (RUF Yellowbird as an example) if they meet the minimum of 20 cars produced? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.149.90.110 ( talk) 11:03, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
RUF has been certified in Germany as a Car manufacturer. Does Hennessey have the same distinction? The differences between tuner and manufacturer have become blurred in these cases particularly given that lotus sells their chassis to others. It does say in the first paragraph of this page that a production car is neither a concept or modified car. Perhaps some guidelines about the latter need to be made clear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.149.90.110 ( talk) 22:42, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
Can you guys or girls cut your edit war!!! Yes I am shouting - The Hennessey is likely to qualify if the produce 20 of the same model. To date they have only stated that they intend to. When they do then they may qualify.
As to the significance of whether or not a tuners vehicles qualify. Provided they verifiably (reliable source required) produce 20 road worthy versions with the same basic specifications, and they have an independent road test then they may well qualify. I think the definition for the list is reasonably clear, but happy to continue the discussion. NealeFamily ( talk) 01:03, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
OK I generally don't allow myself to get drawn into these edit wars, but can someone please tell me why 1) the Hennessey Venom has been reintroduced to the list and 2) why the Bugatti Veyron SS still has its top speed listed as 258 mph when Guinness themselves have retracted their previous stance of that model being modified having it reclaim the #1 position with 268 mph? Can we not make some progression here? I would like to see something near the original list posted a few years ago. Lets just have the history of fastest cars with a couple of extra columns showing number of cars in the production run and also the manufacturers claimed top speed along any verified numbers from independent resources such as automobile magazines, Guinness, etc. Give everyone the info and let them make up their own minds as to which makes and models belong, similar to the fastest cars by acceleration page, and be done with this SAGA!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.7.177.64 ( talk) 10:37, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
beacuase (1) an editor thinks the hennessy satisfies the criterion for this list (20 production cars sold (it obviously doesn't)) or doesn't care, (2) the version of the german car that meets the criterion of this list hit 258. Guinness use another criterion which they are unwilling to reveal to us. Your proposal would lead to this being a list of 'fast cars we like', which would get speedily deleted. Greglocock ( talk) 02:49, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
I would dispute your last comment of the list being fast cars that we like. Most manufacturers haven't claimed to make the fastest production car and those that have would at least have some sort of credibility and/or an independent assessment as I mentioned. The fastest cars by acceleration list doesn't appear to be a "list of cars they like" in fact it is exactly what it is meant to be, a list of cars by acceleration (maunfacturer claimed or otherwise). I admire the editor's ambition in make this list accurate, but what good is it if there are glaringly obvious omissions that most, including Guinness consider historical holders of the title in question. By having those cars omitted essentially makes this list pointless. If a consensus is reached then from my perspective this list will be the authority people turn to if their interests lie with this topic and we can dispense with the rest of the bogus rubbish floating around on the net.