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Celebrity endorsements and advertising is one of the main things Proactiv is known for. However there is a delicate balance to maintain to cover all the major celebrity spokespeople, without creating an indiscriminate list.
Proactiv recently sent me a list of omitted celebrity spokespeople and I found two where their endorsement of Proactiv was covered in People magazine. That's Julianne Hough ( source) and Olivia Munn ( source). In both cases the source articles are more than 250 words (my measure for a "blurb").
Was hoping an independent editor might be able to offer a quick opinion on whether they should be added. CorporateM ( Talk) 22:54, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. |
One of the things Proactiv is known for is its advertising and celebrity spokesmodels, currently described in the "Marketing" section. I suggest adding a couple that are missing that were covered by People Magazine to the end of the second-last paragraph of the "Marketing" section as follows:
I noticed the article's been re-structured from its GA-version. It looks fine with exception to "Sales and marketing" being a bit awkward as a section-title. The main thing this product is notable for is its advertising/marketing (it's actually sold by an advertising company, as oppose to a manufacturer), but not its sales. Sales is distinguishable from marketing in that sales is done in-person, whereas marketing and advertising are done through media. The Sales section could be better as a sub-section under Products, since its actually about how much of the product has been sold (revenue, units sold, etc.), as oppose to the act or field of sales (salespeople).
The Lead also appears to be really long now for this short of an article. 1-2 paragraphs seems more appropriate. Thoughts? David King, Ethical Wiki ( Talk) 15:43, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
I haven't had much time to work on this article, but for future reference it ought to say something about the cancellation problems the company appears to be known for. Consumers sign up for a subscription – sometimes inadvertently, thinking they are sending off for a sample only – then can't get through to the company to cancel when they find they're being charged monthly. See Jezebel article, for example. SarahSV (talk) 18:01, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
We don't say who manufactures this product and where. I've had a quick look for sources, but so far haven't found anything. SarahSV (talk) 21:35, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
The article doesn't say what Proactiv+ is. Is it just a variety of the three-step Proactiv, or is it a replacement? Is the original three-step Proactiv still available? The version of the article that was promoted to GA said: "There is also a Proactiv+ version that does not contain parabens and is intended to also act as a moisturizer," but it's not clear what that means. If it's a replacement, it affects what we say about the ingredients. SarahSV (talk) 00:59, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
I've created {{ Proactiv sidebar}} with the ingredients list of the main three-step kit in the United States and United Kingdom. It assumes that Proactiv+ hasn't replaced the original kit in the US. SarahSV (talk) 19:28, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
It isn't "unambiguous advertising or promotion" and was deleted out of process. Seraphimblade, I'd appreciate it if you would restore it while it's discussed, and gain consensus to delete it if you want to do that. With respect, you seem to be acting here both as admin and editor. DGG, please say whether anyone contacted you off-wiki about this article. I believe the company has tried to have it changed, so it's important to know whether they or anyone acting for them contacted you, and if so what they wanted.
There are two separable issues:
For all these reasons, I would like the article to make clear – this is what this product contains in country X; this is what it is called there; this is what it costs there. Doing some of that in a sidebar is the neatest way to do it, and having collapsed sections in sidebars is common. SarahSV (talk) 00:35, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
You have, I think, an unusual definition of that, given that removing marketing material is an administrative action (and, regardless, a template is not an article), but I suppose it's moot at this point. No, I'm not familiar with the specific product aside from general familiarity with the type, and that is most certainly not a requirement to edit or discuss the article. I am familiar with the general principles of WP:NOT, especially as regards price guides and indiscriminate information. I would tend to reiterate that if those practices are to be changed, it really requires community involvement, as that would have very wide-ranging effects in how we write articles about products and is a significant departure from current practice.
I'm not sure what video games have to do with anything, but out of curiosity, I checked a few video game articles I picked more or less at random (well, from whatever my Steam front page stopped on): ( Fallout 4, Grand Theft Auto 5, and Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain. All of these are recent games currently on sale; none of them contain per-item prices or other exhaustive detail like comprehensive lists of items, locations, characters, etc. (which would be a game's "ingredients"). They do, of course, include total revenue and sales figures, and those are pretty standard for articles on products. I also took a look at some prepackaged foods ( Wheat Thins, Chips Ahoy, Jello), and these either did not contain ingredient lists or just contained short mentions of the main ingredients within the article prose. I still do not see either detailed pricing or exhaustive ingredient lists as appropriate in tone to an encyclopedia article. I would suggest listing the primary ingredients, especially if they are heavily discussed in sources, and having footnotes or reference links pointing to the more exhaustive material. That's pretty standard practice. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:42, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Doc James, this issue goes beyond this article for me. One of Wikipedia's gender-gap issues is that we barely cover the cosmetics industry. One of my projects for next year was going to be creating a template (with collapsible sections) that would include the ingredients of some well-known cosmetics. Crème de la Mer, for example, is a very expensive facial moisturizer – $1,080 for 8.4 oz (238 grams) in the United States – but the main ingredients are very ordinary (seaweed extract, mineral oil, petrolatum, glycerin). Wikipedia doesn't have an article on it; it's currently a redirect to the brand, with no information about ingredients. Women have to go to other websites for this information. SarahSV (talk) 02:28, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Can you can see how the gender-gap issue is playing itself out here? As a woman, I'm frustrated that Wikipedia doesn't cover cosmetics as it does other issues. I'd like to be able to look up cosmetic items on WP before I buy them, just as readers look up video games, operating systems, phones, computers, etc.
But when I try to offer what a lot of women might see as useful coverage (please tell me what I'd be putting on my face if I were to buy this), I'm reverted; a template I spent quite a lot of time on is speedy deleted; and I have to go through these arguments about UNDUE, MOS, collapsed, screen readers, etc. And now I may have to initiate an RfC, to which most respondents will be men who for the most part don't know or care anything about the main issue.
Why would I bother to do that to myself? The answer is that I won't bother, so the thing won't get done, and once again I'm left with the feeling that this is a men's website. SarahSV (talk) 21:51, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't. I've been opposing the use of Wikipedia as a "consumer guide" for many years, including on computers and video games (not to mention a "fan guide" on fiction), where it was often at issue at the time. That was well before the gender gap issue was raised or even known about at all.
If someone wanted to include full-system specs, let alone pricing, on an article on a computer or phone, I'd oppose that every bit as strongly, and indeed have. It's nothing to do with gender, it's to do with the purpose of Wikipedia. And yes, UNDUE and MOS do relate to that. I'd never come only to Wikipedia to determine a purchase of a computer or phone. I might start here, but then I'd visit professional and consumer reviews, too, not to mention sites that do include the specs in full detail.
I'm not putting you on with the offer to do an RfC. If we're really at an impasse, asking for wider input is the next step. It does not and should not matter who that input is from; it will be from Wikipedians. If your proposal gains consensus, that is what we'll do. It's better to have responses from those who don't have a fully-formed opinion coming in, as that helps to ensure neutrality. So I would hope to get input from a lot of people who don't know or care about this specific subject.
As to the discussion about accessibility for the disabled, I think it's a crucial one and one we should absolutely consider when writing articles. Now that is an area where I do have something of a personal stake, as I know more than one blind person who accesses the Internet via screen reader. But I don't consider that something to "go through". I want our site to be accessible to anyone who might like to use it, even if they are disabled. Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:26, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, realized I forgot to respond on the trademark point. That's very easily handled, without the awkward and unencyclopedic tone: "X is a Y, made by Z...". Then that can be cleared up right from the lead sentence. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:53, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
![]() | Proactiv has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
![]() | The
Wikimedia Foundation's
Terms of Use require that editors disclose their "employer, client, and affiliation" with respect to any paid contribution; see
WP:PAID. For advice about reviewing paid contributions, see
WP:COIRESPONSE.
|
Celebrity endorsements and advertising is one of the main things Proactiv is known for. However there is a delicate balance to maintain to cover all the major celebrity spokespeople, without creating an indiscriminate list.
Proactiv recently sent me a list of omitted celebrity spokespeople and I found two where their endorsement of Proactiv was covered in People magazine. That's Julianne Hough ( source) and Olivia Munn ( source). In both cases the source articles are more than 250 words (my measure for a "blurb").
Was hoping an independent editor might be able to offer a quick opinion on whether they should be added. CorporateM ( Talk) 22:54, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. |
One of the things Proactiv is known for is its advertising and celebrity spokesmodels, currently described in the "Marketing" section. I suggest adding a couple that are missing that were covered by People Magazine to the end of the second-last paragraph of the "Marketing" section as follows:
I noticed the article's been re-structured from its GA-version. It looks fine with exception to "Sales and marketing" being a bit awkward as a section-title. The main thing this product is notable for is its advertising/marketing (it's actually sold by an advertising company, as oppose to a manufacturer), but not its sales. Sales is distinguishable from marketing in that sales is done in-person, whereas marketing and advertising are done through media. The Sales section could be better as a sub-section under Products, since its actually about how much of the product has been sold (revenue, units sold, etc.), as oppose to the act or field of sales (salespeople).
The Lead also appears to be really long now for this short of an article. 1-2 paragraphs seems more appropriate. Thoughts? David King, Ethical Wiki ( Talk) 15:43, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
I haven't had much time to work on this article, but for future reference it ought to say something about the cancellation problems the company appears to be known for. Consumers sign up for a subscription – sometimes inadvertently, thinking they are sending off for a sample only – then can't get through to the company to cancel when they find they're being charged monthly. See Jezebel article, for example. SarahSV (talk) 18:01, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
We don't say who manufactures this product and where. I've had a quick look for sources, but so far haven't found anything. SarahSV (talk) 21:35, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
The article doesn't say what Proactiv+ is. Is it just a variety of the three-step Proactiv, or is it a replacement? Is the original three-step Proactiv still available? The version of the article that was promoted to GA said: "There is also a Proactiv+ version that does not contain parabens and is intended to also act as a moisturizer," but it's not clear what that means. If it's a replacement, it affects what we say about the ingredients. SarahSV (talk) 00:59, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
I've created {{ Proactiv sidebar}} with the ingredients list of the main three-step kit in the United States and United Kingdom. It assumes that Proactiv+ hasn't replaced the original kit in the US. SarahSV (talk) 19:28, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
It isn't "unambiguous advertising or promotion" and was deleted out of process. Seraphimblade, I'd appreciate it if you would restore it while it's discussed, and gain consensus to delete it if you want to do that. With respect, you seem to be acting here both as admin and editor. DGG, please say whether anyone contacted you off-wiki about this article. I believe the company has tried to have it changed, so it's important to know whether they or anyone acting for them contacted you, and if so what they wanted.
There are two separable issues:
For all these reasons, I would like the article to make clear – this is what this product contains in country X; this is what it is called there; this is what it costs there. Doing some of that in a sidebar is the neatest way to do it, and having collapsed sections in sidebars is common. SarahSV (talk) 00:35, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
You have, I think, an unusual definition of that, given that removing marketing material is an administrative action (and, regardless, a template is not an article), but I suppose it's moot at this point. No, I'm not familiar with the specific product aside from general familiarity with the type, and that is most certainly not a requirement to edit or discuss the article. I am familiar with the general principles of WP:NOT, especially as regards price guides and indiscriminate information. I would tend to reiterate that if those practices are to be changed, it really requires community involvement, as that would have very wide-ranging effects in how we write articles about products and is a significant departure from current practice.
I'm not sure what video games have to do with anything, but out of curiosity, I checked a few video game articles I picked more or less at random (well, from whatever my Steam front page stopped on): ( Fallout 4, Grand Theft Auto 5, and Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain. All of these are recent games currently on sale; none of them contain per-item prices or other exhaustive detail like comprehensive lists of items, locations, characters, etc. (which would be a game's "ingredients"). They do, of course, include total revenue and sales figures, and those are pretty standard for articles on products. I also took a look at some prepackaged foods ( Wheat Thins, Chips Ahoy, Jello), and these either did not contain ingredient lists or just contained short mentions of the main ingredients within the article prose. I still do not see either detailed pricing or exhaustive ingredient lists as appropriate in tone to an encyclopedia article. I would suggest listing the primary ingredients, especially if they are heavily discussed in sources, and having footnotes or reference links pointing to the more exhaustive material. That's pretty standard practice. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:42, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Doc James, this issue goes beyond this article for me. One of Wikipedia's gender-gap issues is that we barely cover the cosmetics industry. One of my projects for next year was going to be creating a template (with collapsible sections) that would include the ingredients of some well-known cosmetics. Crème de la Mer, for example, is a very expensive facial moisturizer – $1,080 for 8.4 oz (238 grams) in the United States – but the main ingredients are very ordinary (seaweed extract, mineral oil, petrolatum, glycerin). Wikipedia doesn't have an article on it; it's currently a redirect to the brand, with no information about ingredients. Women have to go to other websites for this information. SarahSV (talk) 02:28, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Can you can see how the gender-gap issue is playing itself out here? As a woman, I'm frustrated that Wikipedia doesn't cover cosmetics as it does other issues. I'd like to be able to look up cosmetic items on WP before I buy them, just as readers look up video games, operating systems, phones, computers, etc.
But when I try to offer what a lot of women might see as useful coverage (please tell me what I'd be putting on my face if I were to buy this), I'm reverted; a template I spent quite a lot of time on is speedy deleted; and I have to go through these arguments about UNDUE, MOS, collapsed, screen readers, etc. And now I may have to initiate an RfC, to which most respondents will be men who for the most part don't know or care anything about the main issue.
Why would I bother to do that to myself? The answer is that I won't bother, so the thing won't get done, and once again I'm left with the feeling that this is a men's website. SarahSV (talk) 21:51, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't. I've been opposing the use of Wikipedia as a "consumer guide" for many years, including on computers and video games (not to mention a "fan guide" on fiction), where it was often at issue at the time. That was well before the gender gap issue was raised or even known about at all.
If someone wanted to include full-system specs, let alone pricing, on an article on a computer or phone, I'd oppose that every bit as strongly, and indeed have. It's nothing to do with gender, it's to do with the purpose of Wikipedia. And yes, UNDUE and MOS do relate to that. I'd never come only to Wikipedia to determine a purchase of a computer or phone. I might start here, but then I'd visit professional and consumer reviews, too, not to mention sites that do include the specs in full detail.
I'm not putting you on with the offer to do an RfC. If we're really at an impasse, asking for wider input is the next step. It does not and should not matter who that input is from; it will be from Wikipedians. If your proposal gains consensus, that is what we'll do. It's better to have responses from those who don't have a fully-formed opinion coming in, as that helps to ensure neutrality. So I would hope to get input from a lot of people who don't know or care about this specific subject.
As to the discussion about accessibility for the disabled, I think it's a crucial one and one we should absolutely consider when writing articles. Now that is an area where I do have something of a personal stake, as I know more than one blind person who accesses the Internet via screen reader. But I don't consider that something to "go through". I want our site to be accessible to anyone who might like to use it, even if they are disabled. Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:26, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, realized I forgot to respond on the trademark point. That's very easily handled, without the awkward and unencyclopedic tone: "X is a Y, made by Z...". Then that can be cleared up right from the lead sentence. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:53, 23 December 2015 (UTC)