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I think public school should be prominent in the intro, as the redirect comes here. However, my edit was removed by Rangoon11, saying "only a small proportion of independent schools in the UK are regarded as public schools." Why redirect such an important topic, and yet say it isn't important enough to get headline prominence? Either we should restore the "public school" page, or be more inclusive of public schools in this article. Hyper3 ( talk) 00:13, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
The article currently says: "Around 10% of independent schools in the UK, which are in general older, more expensive, more exclusive and members of the Headmasters' and Headmindastresses' Conference,[1] are known in England and Wales (but not in Scotland or Northern Ireland) as "'public schools"."
What is the source for the claim that only %10 of independent secondary schools are members of the headmasters conference? -- PBS ( talk) 16:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Independent Schools Council says it "represent over 1,200 independent schools. These schools are ranked among the best in the world and educate more than 500,000 children". That number includes children under 12 who are not at secondary schools and those between 11 and 13 at prep-schools.
The HMC top ten facts page says "201,998 pupils are taught in HMC Schools in the UK and Ireland" and "One in five of all those attending the UK's top ten universities come from HMC's 252 schools. "
So the Independent Schools Council schools 1,221 [1] of which 252 belong to the HMC [2]. Some of the numbers of both are for foreign (Non UK) schools) but even using the gross figures which are skewed against the HMC (because it includes schools not in the secondary school system) the numbers word out as 201,998/500,000 and 252/1,221 (40% by pupils and 20% by schools) is nowhere near the 10% stated in the article. -- PBS ( talk) 16:44, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
It was agreed in 2005 after a requested move debate to move the article on Public schools to this page (see above #Page move). On 10 January 2012 Rangoon11 altered the redirect that pointed to this article into a page with this series of edits. The lead statement of that change was "The term public school is commonly used in the United Kingdom to refer to a select group of about 10% of the independent schools", yet no reliable source has been presented to back up that statement, or that distinguishes "Public School" from Independent School. When we debated this in 2005 it was clear that school such as Eton College describe themselves as independent schools [5] and not public schools (can you find one independent school that describes itself a "Public School"?). The most common use of "Public School" in reliable sources was in broadsheet newspapers and when they use the term, if they define it, they link it to membership of the HMC. I suggest that the article Public School is a content/POV fork and I propose to reintegrate the text of the two articles and make the article Public School (United Kingdom) back into a redirect, unless it can be show that the modern usage of the term "Public School" has a clear definition and is more than an synonym for independent school that belongs to the HMC. -- PBS ( talk) 11:13, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Not sure where you are coming from on some of this, however I have adjusted the lead again with a view to accommodating your input. I have taken out the citations you added to the lead since a lead should normally summarise content from the body of the article and does not need to repeat these citations except for any particularly controversial content. PeterEastern ( talk) 20:30, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Thank you Peter for teasing out the 10% issue. The reason I raised it with the current article Public school (United Kingdom) was because that statistic was used to recreate the article Public school (United Kingdom) when there had been a long debate back in 2005 to move the page from Public school to Independent School. It that debate several issues were raised:
I also do not think you can use definitions that pre-date World War II as a way to define what is meant by a "public school" today. I think we can ignore a 1810 definition, and what makes the 1938 "non-local endowed boarding schools for the upper classes" (So out goes Westminster!) and better than the Flemming report of 1944, which had to consider the legal position for possible future legislation, and basically said that a public school is a member of the HMC? [6]. The Flemming type definition was also used by the The Donnison Report (1970):
The main function of the Commission will be to advise on the best way of integrating the public schools with the State system of education. For the immediate purpose of the Commission public schools are defined as those independent schools now in membership of the Headmasters' Conference, Governing Bodies' Association or Governing Bodies of Girls' Schools Association.
Both these definitions seem to be similar to the popular 21st century definition that equates public schools to those who are members of the HMC.
AFAICT the the only way one could glean what the term "The term public school is sometimes used to refer to a group of older, more expensive and exclusive fee-paying privat schools" means would be to list the schools found guilty of involvement in the independent school fee fixing scandal because clearly those schools considered themselves a self selecting cartel who are in competition with each other, but as I know of know reliable sources that draws that conclusion, it can not be used as a way to determine what is an English public school.
The original reason for recreating the article (the 10%) has been shown to have no foundation in sources, unless someone can show that there is a well known definition that makes a distinction between public school and independent school that belongs to the HMC, the POV fork should reintegrated into this article (see WP:REDUNDANTFORK). If there is a need in the future to create such an article as part of a summary style then it should be given a neutral descriptive name such as Independent secondary school (United Kingdom) if Scotland and Northern Ireland are to be included, or Independent secondary school (England and Wales) if not (although I notice that Monmouth School was not part of the fee fixing fixing!) -- Also as the article is only 31k in size I see no need for a summary style article at present.
-- PBS ( talk) 17:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone know/can find any stats for:
Thanks Chendy ( talk) 09:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Breakdown per university is published each year in the papers, breakdown by age I have never seen - it would be an extremely useful figure as the '7% privately educated' is averaged over the whole population, and given the greater attendance in higher years (especially 16-18) the actual number of people educated in the private system for some of their childhood will be markedly greater than this figure. It might take some digging through gov.uk or the HMC.
Ed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.231.105 ( talk) 13:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Reference 1 (Hensher) does not provide a primary souce for the "7% ... 18%" figure but just states the figures. 87.114.228.201 ( talk) 11:27, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
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The Wikipedia infobox template for UK schools asks for a description of "What type of school is it, and how is it funded?" [1] Most of the UK independent schools just have Independent but don't explain that they're fee-paying. Should not 'fee-paying' be included to explain how these schools are funded? Garageland66 ( talk) 13:56, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
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The citation in this section was missing, but in any case it is highly dubious that 'most' private schools have CS. Most members of the ISC do (c. 1000 out of 1269) but that represents less than half the total. Since it is generally the smaller, less proposperous and less famous schools - which are mostly businesses - that are not members of the ISC, there is good reason to think the proportion of private schools that have CS isn't much above 40%. We need a reliable source that gives more info on this. 90.255.199.75 ( talk) 20:28, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
I stumbled across this page by accident and I disagree with the definition that (UK) public schools are synonymous with independent schools. Public schools specifically refer to independent secondary schools e.g. Eton, Harrow, St Paul's etc. Independent primary schools in the UK are referred to as Prep(aratory) schools and this distinction should be made clear in this article. Vivenot 11:24, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Second paragraph "The term Public school has traditionally been used in England and Wales for the elite of such independent schools that provide 13 to 18 education. " -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:50, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
That was my edit in response to 'Vivenot'!-- Westminsterboy 13:55, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
My objection is more to the redirect from Public school (England) to Independent school (UK). They are not the same thing and there should be two separate articles. Vivenot 14:01, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I've just looked at the move discussion above. I didn't see it earlier as I have to do some work as well as Wiki-ing (?!). It sounds like you had a lot of fun discussing the move. Although I appreciate the vote is now closed, the resulting move/redirect has created a slightly incorrect wiki article. Public school (England) should be a separate article linked as a subset of Independent school (UK). I hope this clarifies, but I can understand if people do not want to open this can of worms again! Vivenot 14:16, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
In theory I think you're correct; doing the split in a "clean" manner is problematic, though. Trouble is "public school" is a historical and popular term that's no longer really used "officially", so it tends to be as clear as mud what it "correctly" refers to. When people start referring to titular (and previously actual) grammar schools as "public schools", it's clear there's not a coherent definition. Ideally I'd think the Public school (England) (or whatever else) article should be focussed on the historical sense, rather than trying to split out a "subset" of present schools to treat of separately. Alai 04:47, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Heres a point... never mind the 'public school's act' since thats like saying that countries presently in the EU are not in it because they were not listed 20 years ago! I agree that not all HMC schools share a public 'ethos' but it is silly to abandon the definition completely. At the end of the day the more 'prominent' schools now have fees in the range of £5000-£8000 per term... if this is not an acceptable modern definition then what is?.... people seem to forget that many of todays prominent Public Schools (ie the most popular and well known) are in fact ex-charity schools that used foundationers, it is absurd to say that these schools are not 'public' since for the past 100/200 years they have had a definitive Public School image regardless of if they are listed in the act or not! MoleValley, 20:17, 7 September 2006
It always makes me smile when I read an article in some trashy tabloid where the poorly informed writer refers to some unknown and irrelevant independent day school for girls aged 11-18 as a 'public school'. It isn't. There are only about 50 real public schools in Britain and only about half of those are top ones. If you have been to one of those top schools then you will know what the definition of a public school is - an independent school which does, or has historically, catered for boys aged 13 to 18 in a predominant boarding environment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.158.44 ( talk) 19:10, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Sorry but Public School really is very well defined. An act was passed in 1868 and I don't really see how there is room for discourse here. The nine schools listed there are public schools, the rest are not. They are called public schools because the act removed them from influence by Crown or Clergy. The above analogy is not valid. It's more like saying we can flout the definition of this cathedral because King's College Chapel is really rather large. Image is irrelevant, law isn't. Styxis ( talk) 11:25, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
The Public Schools Act 1868 provides for the governance of "certain Public Schools in England." It does not define the term "public school" as claimed in the article, or limit the term to the schools listed in the act. Weburbia ( talk) 17:46, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
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Why are England and Wales combined when Education has been devolved for 20 years? - 2A00:23C0:C211:3900:C819:3442:756C:729C ( talk) 18:03, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
I think public school should be prominent in the intro, as the redirect comes here. However, my edit was removed by Rangoon11, saying "only a small proportion of independent schools in the UK are regarded as public schools." Why redirect such an important topic, and yet say it isn't important enough to get headline prominence? Either we should restore the "public school" page, or be more inclusive of public schools in this article. Hyper3 ( talk) 00:13, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
The article currently says: "Around 10% of independent schools in the UK, which are in general older, more expensive, more exclusive and members of the Headmasters' and Headmindastresses' Conference,[1] are known in England and Wales (but not in Scotland or Northern Ireland) as "'public schools"."
What is the source for the claim that only %10 of independent secondary schools are members of the headmasters conference? -- PBS ( talk) 16:02, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
Independent Schools Council says it "represent over 1,200 independent schools. These schools are ranked among the best in the world and educate more than 500,000 children". That number includes children under 12 who are not at secondary schools and those between 11 and 13 at prep-schools.
The HMC top ten facts page says "201,998 pupils are taught in HMC Schools in the UK and Ireland" and "One in five of all those attending the UK's top ten universities come from HMC's 252 schools. "
So the Independent Schools Council schools 1,221 [1] of which 252 belong to the HMC [2]. Some of the numbers of both are for foreign (Non UK) schools) but even using the gross figures which are skewed against the HMC (because it includes schools not in the secondary school system) the numbers word out as 201,998/500,000 and 252/1,221 (40% by pupils and 20% by schools) is nowhere near the 10% stated in the article. -- PBS ( talk) 16:44, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
It was agreed in 2005 after a requested move debate to move the article on Public schools to this page (see above #Page move). On 10 January 2012 Rangoon11 altered the redirect that pointed to this article into a page with this series of edits. The lead statement of that change was "The term public school is commonly used in the United Kingdom to refer to a select group of about 10% of the independent schools", yet no reliable source has been presented to back up that statement, or that distinguishes "Public School" from Independent School. When we debated this in 2005 it was clear that school such as Eton College describe themselves as independent schools [5] and not public schools (can you find one independent school that describes itself a "Public School"?). The most common use of "Public School" in reliable sources was in broadsheet newspapers and when they use the term, if they define it, they link it to membership of the HMC. I suggest that the article Public School is a content/POV fork and I propose to reintegrate the text of the two articles and make the article Public School (United Kingdom) back into a redirect, unless it can be show that the modern usage of the term "Public School" has a clear definition and is more than an synonym for independent school that belongs to the HMC. -- PBS ( talk) 11:13, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Not sure where you are coming from on some of this, however I have adjusted the lead again with a view to accommodating your input. I have taken out the citations you added to the lead since a lead should normally summarise content from the body of the article and does not need to repeat these citations except for any particularly controversial content. PeterEastern ( talk) 20:30, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Thank you Peter for teasing out the 10% issue. The reason I raised it with the current article Public school (United Kingdom) was because that statistic was used to recreate the article Public school (United Kingdom) when there had been a long debate back in 2005 to move the page from Public school to Independent School. It that debate several issues were raised:
I also do not think you can use definitions that pre-date World War II as a way to define what is meant by a "public school" today. I think we can ignore a 1810 definition, and what makes the 1938 "non-local endowed boarding schools for the upper classes" (So out goes Westminster!) and better than the Flemming report of 1944, which had to consider the legal position for possible future legislation, and basically said that a public school is a member of the HMC? [6]. The Flemming type definition was also used by the The Donnison Report (1970):
The main function of the Commission will be to advise on the best way of integrating the public schools with the State system of education. For the immediate purpose of the Commission public schools are defined as those independent schools now in membership of the Headmasters' Conference, Governing Bodies' Association or Governing Bodies of Girls' Schools Association.
Both these definitions seem to be similar to the popular 21st century definition that equates public schools to those who are members of the HMC.
AFAICT the the only way one could glean what the term "The term public school is sometimes used to refer to a group of older, more expensive and exclusive fee-paying privat schools" means would be to list the schools found guilty of involvement in the independent school fee fixing scandal because clearly those schools considered themselves a self selecting cartel who are in competition with each other, but as I know of know reliable sources that draws that conclusion, it can not be used as a way to determine what is an English public school.
The original reason for recreating the article (the 10%) has been shown to have no foundation in sources, unless someone can show that there is a well known definition that makes a distinction between public school and independent school that belongs to the HMC, the POV fork should reintegrated into this article (see WP:REDUNDANTFORK). If there is a need in the future to create such an article as part of a summary style then it should be given a neutral descriptive name such as Independent secondary school (United Kingdom) if Scotland and Northern Ireland are to be included, or Independent secondary school (England and Wales) if not (although I notice that Monmouth School was not part of the fee fixing fixing!) -- Also as the article is only 31k in size I see no need for a summary style article at present.
-- PBS ( talk) 17:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Does anyone know/can find any stats for:
Thanks Chendy ( talk) 09:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Breakdown per university is published each year in the papers, breakdown by age I have never seen - it would be an extremely useful figure as the '7% privately educated' is averaged over the whole population, and given the greater attendance in higher years (especially 16-18) the actual number of people educated in the private system for some of their childhood will be markedly greater than this figure. It might take some digging through gov.uk or the HMC.
Ed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.231.105 ( talk) 13:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Reference 1 (Hensher) does not provide a primary souce for the "7% ... 18%" figure but just states the figures. 87.114.228.201 ( talk) 11:27, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
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The Wikipedia infobox template for UK schools asks for a description of "What type of school is it, and how is it funded?" [1] Most of the UK independent schools just have Independent but don't explain that they're fee-paying. Should not 'fee-paying' be included to explain how these schools are funded? Garageland66 ( talk) 13:56, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
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The citation in this section was missing, but in any case it is highly dubious that 'most' private schools have CS. Most members of the ISC do (c. 1000 out of 1269) but that represents less than half the total. Since it is generally the smaller, less proposperous and less famous schools - which are mostly businesses - that are not members of the ISC, there is good reason to think the proportion of private schools that have CS isn't much above 40%. We need a reliable source that gives more info on this. 90.255.199.75 ( talk) 20:28, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
I stumbled across this page by accident and I disagree with the definition that (UK) public schools are synonymous with independent schools. Public schools specifically refer to independent secondary schools e.g. Eton, Harrow, St Paul's etc. Independent primary schools in the UK are referred to as Prep(aratory) schools and this distinction should be made clear in this article. Vivenot 11:24, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Second paragraph "The term Public school has traditionally been used in England and Wales for the elite of such independent schools that provide 13 to 18 education. " -- Philip Baird Shearer 13:50, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
That was my edit in response to 'Vivenot'!-- Westminsterboy 13:55, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
My objection is more to the redirect from Public school (England) to Independent school (UK). They are not the same thing and there should be two separate articles. Vivenot 14:01, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I've just looked at the move discussion above. I didn't see it earlier as I have to do some work as well as Wiki-ing (?!). It sounds like you had a lot of fun discussing the move. Although I appreciate the vote is now closed, the resulting move/redirect has created a slightly incorrect wiki article. Public school (England) should be a separate article linked as a subset of Independent school (UK). I hope this clarifies, but I can understand if people do not want to open this can of worms again! Vivenot 14:16, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
In theory I think you're correct; doing the split in a "clean" manner is problematic, though. Trouble is "public school" is a historical and popular term that's no longer really used "officially", so it tends to be as clear as mud what it "correctly" refers to. When people start referring to titular (and previously actual) grammar schools as "public schools", it's clear there's not a coherent definition. Ideally I'd think the Public school (England) (or whatever else) article should be focussed on the historical sense, rather than trying to split out a "subset" of present schools to treat of separately. Alai 04:47, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Heres a point... never mind the 'public school's act' since thats like saying that countries presently in the EU are not in it because they were not listed 20 years ago! I agree that not all HMC schools share a public 'ethos' but it is silly to abandon the definition completely. At the end of the day the more 'prominent' schools now have fees in the range of £5000-£8000 per term... if this is not an acceptable modern definition then what is?.... people seem to forget that many of todays prominent Public Schools (ie the most popular and well known) are in fact ex-charity schools that used foundationers, it is absurd to say that these schools are not 'public' since for the past 100/200 years they have had a definitive Public School image regardless of if they are listed in the act or not! MoleValley, 20:17, 7 September 2006
It always makes me smile when I read an article in some trashy tabloid where the poorly informed writer refers to some unknown and irrelevant independent day school for girls aged 11-18 as a 'public school'. It isn't. There are only about 50 real public schools in Britain and only about half of those are top ones. If you have been to one of those top schools then you will know what the definition of a public school is - an independent school which does, or has historically, catered for boys aged 13 to 18 in a predominant boarding environment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.158.44 ( talk) 19:10, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Sorry but Public School really is very well defined. An act was passed in 1868 and I don't really see how there is room for discourse here. The nine schools listed there are public schools, the rest are not. They are called public schools because the act removed them from influence by Crown or Clergy. The above analogy is not valid. It's more like saying we can flout the definition of this cathedral because King's College Chapel is really rather large. Image is irrelevant, law isn't. Styxis ( talk) 11:25, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
The Public Schools Act 1868 provides for the governance of "certain Public Schools in England." It does not define the term "public school" as claimed in the article, or limit the term to the schools listed in the act. Weburbia ( talk) 17:46, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
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Why are England and Wales combined when Education has been devolved for 20 years? - 2A00:23C0:C211:3900:C819:3442:756C:729C ( talk) 18:03, 30 December 2018 (UTC)