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Okay, so in response to "Let's request mediation", the answer, from both sides, is apparently "Argue argue argue roar argue roar".
Yeah, that's great. Seriously though, why don't we request mediation? - Rwv37 00:31, May 11, 2004 (UTC)
Mediation might be useful if we were dealing with a rational individual; instead we are dealing with Wik, who is a crackpot, a content-perverter and radical POV-pushing vandal with precisely zero interest in permitting any facts that are at variance with his/her perception of reality into Wikipedia.-- Gene_poole 01:27, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
I found the paragraph beginning "In 1978, while the Prince was away, Sealand's then Prime Minister, Professor Alexander G Achenbach and several Dutch citizens forcibly took over Roughs Tower and held Prince Roy's son..." rather confusing. When was Achenbach prime minister? How did this fit in with the "royalty"? Why was Achenbach so motivated to assert control over Sealand? Why did the other countries involved in the dispute care? Zashaw 02:00, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
What is confusing about it? The facts are described fairly clearly. Achenbach's status as Prime Minister is historically well-known (he was appointed by Prince Roy), and the motivations of other countries (specifically Germany and the UK) should be self evident. Germany obviously sought the release of one of its nationals (Achenbach), who was being held against his will on Sealand, and the UK refused to become inviolved, forcing German diplomats to deal directly with Sealand's Prince. The takeover attempt was basically a failed re-run of what happened when Roy himself ejected a group of competing pirate radio broadcasters from Roughs Tower in the 1960s - before occupying it and renaming it Sealand. The episode basically boils down to a desire to control of a valuable physical resource by 2 competing groups. Nothing unusual there, other than the size of the resource being fought over, and its unclear legal status.-- Gene_poole 03:51, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Why does this piece of nonsense merit an article in a serious encyclopaedia? Adam 09:23, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Because what from your POV is "nonsense" may well be a subject of serious interest to others.-- Gene_poole 09:33, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Whether or not you agree with Sealand or any historical event, for that matter, does not mean its nonsense. Its actually quite interesting that such a thing could happen.
I removed mention of overseas government employees from "population", as they are not part of that entity's population.
I also added some scare quotes round disputed stuff in the taxobox. Martin 22:04, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
To start the conversation rolling: what factual errors do people believe this page has? My initial understanding of the above talk is that the primary concern is one of implication (eg, the taxobox implying countryship), and neutrality (how much priority to accord the minority belief that Sealand is a state), rather than any dispute over the facts of the matter. What have I missed? Martin 22:24, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for confirming that you are not disputing the factual accuracy of any explicit statements in the article, only implications and the question of how much space to accord to the "crackpot belief" regards Sealand being a state.
This sounds like a general disagreement over the appropriate use of the accuracy dispute header. You believe that it could be used whenever an article implies something that someone believes is not true, or gives disproportionate space to a minority opinion. My prior understanding is that such matters are neutrality disputes, and that accuracy disputes should be used for cases where we have reason to suspect that the direct factual statements of an article are inaccurate.
Perhaps you could discuss this issue with me and others at wikipedia talk:accuracy dispute, since it clearly affects more than this one article? Martin 23:50, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The article clearly articulates in the opening paragraphs that according to generally accepted definitions Sealand is NOT a state. How Gzornenplatz can possibly interpret this as a claim that Sealand is a state is completely beyond me. There are no "implications that Sealand is a state" in the article. The article does include indisputable statements of documented historic fact that show it to be an anomalous entity of some sort. -- Gene_poole 00:47, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I regret that I did not understand precisely the point you were making. I am glad that I explained what I thought your position was, so that this misunderstanding could be corrected.
I was stating my prior understanding of the appropriate use of "accuracy dispute" headers. It appeared your understanding differs. Hence my thought that a wider discussion might be helpful. I am glad that you have started that at wikipedia talk:accuracy dispute, and I have joined you there.
I see that Gene Poole has removed the biased section header "domestic law", in favour of a more neutral wording. I have made a few changes myself, though I am not attached to any of them. Given those edits, could you tell us what outstanding concerns you have with this article? Martin 16:16, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
As far as accuracy dispute goes, the most egregious POV in the article I see now is the heading 'Royal family' that implies support for a claim that is only held by a small minority. No other sovereign nation supports the claim of a Sealand Royalty. The Sealand "royalty" is entirely self proclaimed, so a heading like that is POV. The only reason I have not changed it is I cannot think of something less POV that does not state something like 'Self described royalty status'. In addition none of the references seem to be from those critical of Sealand's claim to sovereignty. -
Taxman 19:02, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
The legal opinions referenced in the 'Legal opinions regarding Sealand' section fall far short of a full citation. The second doesn't have anything but the attorney's name. What were they published in, if at all, and here can they be found now? If these details cannot be found, the section should be removed as unsubstantiated POV. - Taxman 19:02, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
I have come up with an idea I think can help the POV debate. As noted above some sections of the article are POV because they assert an objective agreement to the claims of Sealand's sovereignty even though these claims are disputed. Therefore to obtain NPOV I think a number of the sections that make or imply such claims should be made subsections of a new section titled 'Ostensible features of sovereignty'. The sections that should be moved include "Royal family", "Constitution and internal affairs", "Stamps", "Coins", and perhaps all of the infobox, but especially the flag, seal, and motto. The term ostensible covers the fact that the claims have been made, but not accepted by the majority. It also does not say they are false. Unless consensus objection to this proposal is made, I will make this move in a week. -
Taxman 20:04, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC) (Initial proposal withdrawn as it has been largely satisfied by other means) -
Taxman 13:17, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
I object. To delete the taxobox would be for Wikipedia to make a claim that we do not support the claims of nation-hood, which is itself a POV. Sealand exists. Although its natioinhood is laughable, we can't pretend that it doesn't. It's not a micronation which exists only in Cyberspace. Rick K 20:12, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Rick. The unrecognised anomalous nature of Sealand entity is not merely implied via such means as the proliferation of inverted commas, but is explicitly stated numerous times throughout the article. The 'Royal family', 'Constitution and internal affairs', 'Stamps', 'Coins' all specifically explicity state the nature, status and legitimacy of subjects that are factual (and in the case of physical artefacts, tangible and widely documented). in a clear, concise NPOV manner. Further qualification serves no purpose other than to push the article back into the POV realm from which it has recently been rescued. -- Gene_poole 20:40, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I find this to be an interesting article and I have been following the dispute for some time. I think the idea of Sealand is interesting, and its status leads to some useful discussion and questions, particularly since of the various "micronations" it has the most compelling claim to soverignty as well as being the only one that has any economic activity tied to its status as a micronation. I don't believe that it is useful or necessary for Wikipedia to take a stance on its nationhood.
If it demonstrates anything at all, Sealand shows us that nationhood is more of a continuum than a yes/no question. There are other examples of smaller nations whose significance on the international scene is low and whose dependence on closely related nations is high, though these places have a longer tradition of nationhood and a larger permanent population.
Given the inclusive nature of Wikipedia generally, and style and usage on other controversial articles, I think that it is appropriate to leave the taxobox as is and avoid adding "weasel words" to the various headings. I think it enough to point out, once, that the "price" and "princess" and "currency" and "stamps" and flag and other trappings are based on a doubtful claim of authority. This is a matter of style and usage, not POV, since as a matter of style we do not repeatedly use "purported" or "ostensible" or other weasel words throughout other articles explaining controversial (or even doubtful) topics.
uc 20:44, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Taxman, you said you would delete the taxobox unless you got objections. You've now gotten objections and are arguing that you still should be allowed to delete the taxobox. You should stand by your first proposal. Rick K 22:46, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
You have to grant that there are two levels of information in the article, those posited by Sealand supporters (royalty etc.), and then the verifiable facts (legal cases, etc). Not accepting this is keeping a strong POV in the article, even if the text says differently. The Sealand issue does not need more than its facts to be an interesting case, and anything but NPOV ruins its believability. - Taxman 02:22, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
I have changed the two section headings to which you object. The second of the two I feel to be less than ideal, but I can think of no other way of describing a section about Sealand's constitution and internal affairs without actually using those words. If you have an alternative please change it. -- Gene_poole 01:18, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have discovered today with the greatest interest this article and this talk page. I felt a bit disappointed to find in the article so few details underpinning the most surprising assertion according which Sealand would be a state as defined under Montevideo Convention, since it fulfils the condition of a "permanent population". I see further above in the article that the population number is 1, who seems to be Mr Michael Bates, according to the article Paddy Roy Bates.
Does this mean that Mr Michael Bates never leaves the controversial territory ? Or how should this criterion of "permanent population" be understood ?
French Tourist 21:34, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It is my understanding that the Roughs Tower facility has been continually occupied since the Bates' initial occupation by members of the family themselves, and by various business partners and associates, in varying numbers that have never exceeded a handful. Were it not so there is no doubt the UK would have re-taken and destroyed it long ago, as they did with all the other Sea Forts subsequent to Sealand's creation.-- Gene_poole 23:14, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
J.J., given that this is a disputed article, you should be more careful on what you add to the intro. Using words like "odd fantasy" and "highly eccentric", are POV at best and quarrelsome at worst. It is especially POV to use the "some say" weasel word. A statement like that would need an attribution to not be POV. With those changes, it may be a good addition to the intro. - Taxman 12:59, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)
The initial description of this topic is factually incorrect. In the second paragraph it is incorrectly stated that: "Sealand consists of a World War II-era fortress constructed by the United Kingdom in the North Sea ..." This is incorrect. It was not constructed in the North Sea. The factual history of this entity shows that it is the former HMS Roughs, a Royal Navy vessel constructed and launched from Southern England and floated into position fully staffed with troops. When the barge was position over Rough Sands sandbar the vessel's hold was flooded so that it settled on to the sandbar itself. The two legs and the remaining structure that is visable above the water line is in fact the superstructure built into the hold of the vessel. Various vandals demolished parts of the superstructure before the Bates family squatted on the former HMS Roughs. Because all Royal Navy forts such as HMS Roughs were vessels built in England and floated into position, they are sunken Royal Navy vessels. They were not forts constructed in the North Sea. UK Ordinance Survey maps refer to the site as Rough Tower. - 10:52, Sep 21, 2004 64.63.217.118
Overlooked in all of the discussion on this topic is the very name of this alleged "nation". It has been called a "principality". A principality is not self-created, it is created by a principal sovereign power having both jurisdiction and authority to convey a sub-authority or a lesser authority on its principality. In the case of Monaco the power resides jointly with France and Spain, although it is my understanding that if the Prince's line fails that the Principality of Monaco will revert back to France. In the case in question there is a self-admission by Roy Bates of how he came up with the name and when and where he did so. It was in a pub over a beer. What sparked his remarks is found in UK events of the day. At that time Her Majesty the Queen was about to convey upon her son the title of Prince of Wales in order that he may represent the Principality of Wales. Wales is a principality and Scotland is a co-joined nation with England sharing the same monarchy. The entity in question concerning Roy Bates is a former Royal Navy barge with a superstructure. Ample pictures abound of this vessel being towed to her position over Rough Sands and her hold being flooded so that she sank on to the sandbar with a complete crew of many men. There is also ample evidence to show that the UK Ministry of Defence has always maintained the buoys around Rough Tower (the official H.M. Ordinance Survey map name for the structure today.) Roy Bates has made many claims about starting radio and TV stations, casinos, hotels, etc on or around Rough Tower and not one of them has come to pass (with the exception of his original Radio Essex/BBMS on another former sunken Royal Navy barge-fort which a British court forced him to close down in 1966.) The UK government has prevented every move at flouting UK law. The same goes for Havenco Ltd which began as a British registered company (the evidence may be obtained on line Monday-Friday UK business hours from DTI Companies House.) The mail to Rough Tower is by pick-up at a UK Post Office. There are no unauthorized UK electronic links that exist between Rough Tower and any mainland. But before the entire saga was spelled out on this site, the very name issue should have been addressed and the actual confession of Roy Bates should have been taken into account. MPLX/MH 01:28, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I took a look at Wiktionary for its definition of Principality:
Etymology From Latin principalitas, from adjective principalis, principal, + noun of state suffix -itas. principalis is from prin-, prim-, from primus, first, + cip-, from caput, head, + adjective suffix -alis.
Noun principality, plural principalities A region or sovereign nation headed by a prince or princess.
and then I took a look at the definition of Prince:
Etymology From French prince, from Latin princeps, literally "first head", from primus, first, + ceps, head, related to capitus, head
Noun prince, plural princes male ruler or head of a principality son of a prince, king, queen, emperor, or empress, or some other rank like a grand duke
It would seem that this is nothing but an old play upon the Steve Martin skit of "You can be a millionaire and never pay taxes". You say, "Steve, how can I be a millionaire and never pay taxes?" Steve replies, "First get a million dollars. Second ..."
The key is to deal with first things first. In this case the question is: "Where is the king, queen, emperor, or empress, or some other rank like a grand duke who is alleged to have given "Prince Roy" the ability to rule a principality? The answer is that none exists because his authority came from drinking something alcoholic at a pub - according to his own admission told many times to many people and publications.
The bottom line is this: to become a prince you first have to get your title from some royal family line. But there is no royal family line. The Bates family have never shown that they are the heirs to some distant and forgotten throne. If we trace the royal powers back as far as the "Christian world" is concerned, then most of those powers flowed from the Catholic Church or something similar. In other words there is always a line. In this case the line starts and ends in a waiting line to be served at a pub! Those are the facts and they have never been disputed because that is exactly what Roy Bates has said.
The issues concerning local court jurisdictions involving firearms are related to firearms, they are not related to the issue of any royal genealogy.
Finally there is the issue of the Royal Navy barge itself. Because it was a naval vessel and it sank - even if it was intentional - the question is whether a civilian can take possession of a military wreck, when the military still claim it. Proof of the fact that the Ministry of Defence still claim liability for it is in the actual buoys surrounding Rough Tower with "Rough Tower" painted on them! Those buoys even show up in photos taken by fans from Rough Tower!
This is just silly beyond belief.
But because this first issue fails, then the entire saga also fails as nothing but a joke and Wikipedia is involved in a non-issue, which is how the UK and USA view "Sealand". MPLX/MH 23:33, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Under the heading above directed to Wiki contributors I have posted some additional and new information to this page because it documents the court case that worried Ryan Lackey. I also made the comment that Roy Bates has always known about this case. Should anyone wonder how I know this to be a fact, I personally spoke to Roy, Joan and Michael Bates about all of this many times by phone years ago - some of which I recorded. Roy was none too pleased with the USA case and he was very unhappy with his son Michael who had concluded the deal with Allan H. Weiner. The matter originally came before Judge Chachkin because Allan Weiner was seeking a license for a shortwave station in Maine (which he eventually was granted), but because the FCC had previously revoked his earlier licenses due to his land-based "pirate radio" broadcasts which were followed twice by his attempts to broadcast from the sea (the second time claiming the "authority of Sealand"), all of this came before the court for a proper resolution and it was resolved. There is no such country as "Sealand". There is a sunken Royal Navy barge upon which someone painted the word "Sealand", but that is all. MPLX/MH 00:16, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The following are not opinions, they are not POV, they are well documented and recorded facts:
1. Rough Tower is the name that exists on the official UK Ordinance Survey maps;
2. Rough Tower is the name painted on UK Ministry of Defence buoys marking Rough Tower;
3. Rough Tower is actually two towers joined by a platform above the surface and below the surface the two towers form the superstructure of HMS Roughs, a WWII Royal Navy barge sunk on Rough Sands.
4. Rough Tower is not an island but the superstructure of a former Royal Navy boat.
5. Rough Sands is a part of the UK as established by the fact that the USA and UN all agree that Rough Sands is a part of the UK and there are no international disputes to the contrary.
6. A USA federal court case settled the issue about Rough Tower in 1990-1991 and found that "Sealand" does not exist.
7. Roy Bates has stated that he was in a pub having a drink with his wife Joan when he dreamed up the idea of making her a princess.
8. The occasion that gave rise to the "Sealand" myth was the naming of Prince Charles as the Prince of the Principality of Wales by his mother, the sovereign.
9. No sovereign has ever confered any title of prince on Roy Bates.
10. A principality can only be created by a principal state.
11. The UK being the principal state having jurisdiction has never created a principality on Rough Sands.
12. Military wrecks are not subject to the same laws as ordinary vessels for salvage purposes and HMS Roughs is a military wreck.
If someone would kindly address those basic issues we might be able to clean up this absurd page and get rid of both a hoax and an inducement to financial fraud. MPLX/MH 19:46, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There is already a Principality of Sealand page which for some illogical reason is redirected to this page which looks as if it is/was a disambiguation page. I suggest that the contents of this page are moved to Principality of Sealand page and that this Sealand page is redirected to Sealand (disambiguation) because there is already a Sealand in Wales that is recognized as a part of the United Kingdom and it is also the location of both a famous RAF Sealand and a USAF base. Then there is the are the areas of Holland known and recognized in the English language as Sealand and the hotel in Hong Kong, China known as Sealand, and of course the world famous shipping company known as Sealand. It is therefore logical that the redirect from the existing "Principality of Sealand" should be removed and that a redirect placed on this Sealand page to Sealand (disambiguation). At least that would be a logical and sensible start to clearing up this mess and it can be done with little effort. MPLX/MH 18:36, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Why is the annon. user 129.44.241.52 simply reverting text? How does that help? 129.44.241.52 is logging on from the general area of Buffao, NY.
I was asked by Jao the following question:
Are you denying that the "Principality of Sealand" is an example of entities that resemble independent states, but for the most part exist only on paper, on the Internet, or in the minds of their creators (which is our present definition of micronation, taken from that article)? True, we don't see into Roy Bates's mind, but I don't think we have to doubt that therein, if nowhere else, the entity does exist. Perhaps you are confusing micronations with microstates? -- Jao 08:51, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
Well the article plainly stated that it was a microstate, but called it a micronation, which is downright confusing, if the entire subject was not confusing to begin with. So I have added that definition to state that it is considered by its creators to be a microstate and not a micronation. How else can this daft article begin by saying that it is a sovereign nation and end up by contradicting itself and stating that it is not? The contradiction appears in the first lines after the words Principality of Sealand. It begs a simple, two-three line explanation of what it is - which does not contradict itself or commonsense. Of course the only problem is with the definition of microstate is that no nation has ever agreed that the Principality of Sealand exists (as Jao correctly stated), anywhere but in the mind of Roy Bates and those of his fan club. MPLX/MH 21:31, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I for one respect Sealand and think of it as a totaly independent principality. David
And do you ahve any other such state topics? David
The above editor is attempting to delete the following sentence, on the grounds that it is POV:
Although it remains unrecognized, various factors give Sealand one of the strongest claims to statehood among micronations.
I contend that the statement is both factual and NPOV, for the following reasons:
1. Sealand is unrecognised. The first part of the sentence is therefore factually correct.
2. Sealand does have one of the strongest claims to legitimacy as a sovereign state amongst micronations. No other known micronation has anything even approaching the level of Sealand's claims to legitimacy. The second part of the sentence is therefore also factually correct.-- Gene_poole 06:06, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I don't dispute the first part, but it is redundant with the previous mention that it is a "micronation" (which implies non-recognition) and the following sentence which begins "Were it ever recognized". The second part is clearly POV, simply because one may well believe that it has no claims to legitimacy (and thus no more than any other micronation). Gzornenplatz 06:47, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)
This is not a discussion about Sealand's "legitimacy" or "official status"; it is a discussion about whether the claims to legitimacy Sealand makes have more of a basis in reality, based on legal and historic precedents, than those of other micronations. The objective answer to this is indisputably affirmative. -- Gene_poole 08:34, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I wrote that sentence and was considering taking it out myself. It is POV to state that X has the strongest claim to anything. It is an interpretation of the facts and someone else may interpret it differently or even flat out disagree. Therefore it is a POV. - Taxman 12:12, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)
Suggested rewrite:
Although it remains unrecognized, many consider Sealand to have one of the strongest claims to statehood among micronations, due to various factors and events.
- KeithTyler 18:36, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)
The problem with this article is that it begins by assuming something. It assumes that an island land exists that can be declared independent. The fact of the matter is that what is being discussed is a sunken barge whose twin towers poking above the shallow waters are in fact the superstructure of the sunken barge. Second: This barge was a military vessel. Third: This military vessel known either as HMS Rough's or HM Fort Roughs was built in England and towed to the Rough Sands where the hold was flooded so that it sank gently on the bottom with the Royal Navy crew and other staff on board. Pictures of the building and sinking exist. Fourth: In a pub Roy Bates joked about making the sunken barge into a principality to mimic the Principality of Wales with Prince Charles as the Prince of Wales being imitated by Roy Bates. The Queen made her son Prince of Wales of a real land. A sunken barge is not a land of any type. Fifth: By sleight of hand the uninitiated have been hoodwinked into accepting that the word "derelict" means "abandoned". It does not. The Ministry of Defence have never abandoned claim after their predecessor the Ministry of War placed the barge at that location and to this very day the UK taxpayers pay for the identification buoys surrounding "Rough Tower" with those words painted upon them. You can argue all you want to about territory but first you have to find some territory and there is none. Not only that but this matter was decided in a US court of law with UK participation in 1990-1991 and those findings have never been challenged by anyone, let alone the Bates family. This is a joke and a sham dispute about something that does not exist. Find the land then we can find the dispute. MPLX/MH 21:57, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I found an entry for the Flat Earth Society and one for Flat Earth! Clearly there needs to be disamgiguation pages for myth, fraud and hoax with "Sealand" linked to them and all of these topics need to be written from a sane POV (how can you be NPOV about insanity?) The topics need to show that myths can also mean fantasy, something that does not really exist. There needs to be a link to the word fraud and another to the word hoax and another to the words criminal acts. MPLX/MH 00:03, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thank you Gene for the link. I have not only taken a look at the link but made a note of its contents because I believe that you have answered the entire remaining issue. The question has been raised: "What is the legal definition of defamation?"
The answer is very interesting in the context of "Sealand" because it also addresses the problems encountered with the false ship registration claims and Ryan Lackey's problems which caused him to quit Havenco (and both the ship issue the Havenco legal issues are related - see Ryan Lackey's own web site.)
The elements that must be proved to establish defamation are: (1) A publication to one other than the person defamed; (2) of a false statement of fact; (3) which is understood as being of and concerning the plaintiff; and (4) which is understood in such a way as to tend to harm the reputation of plaintiff.
(1) "Sealand" is not a person but the name of activities taking place on a boat which had a voyage and which was sunk. (2) Claiming that a sunken Royal Navy boat can be taken over by private individuals and declared a sovereign country is in itself a false statement of fact. It denies reality and it is false on its face. (3) The would-be "plaintiff" is a sunken boat, which means that this would be an In Rem ("the thing") case. Since the ownership of the boat would be at issue there would be competing claims as to who represented the "plaintiff": The UK government who built and paid for it and have marked it by their taxpayer buoys, or the Bates family who are mere squatters on someone else's property. (4) Since the "plaintiff" would be disputed the only people to have harmed the real owner (UK) would be the "defendant", namely the Roy, Joan and Michael Bates and hangers on.
Gene, I believe you have just resolved this entire article as being a fantasy of nonsense spawning criminal acts. MPLX/MH 16:04, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This article page was created specifically for an article about the "Principality of Sealand". However, at this time there is no entry on the Principality of Sealand page other than a redirect to a page named Sealand. That page contains partial disambiguation and the article about the "Principality of Sealand". However there now exists a more complete Sealand (disambiguation) page. In order to straighten this mess out the article presently on the Sealand page should be removed here and the redirect link on the Principality of Sealand page should be removed and a redirect inserted on Sealand page to the Sealand (disambiguation) page. MPLX/MH 15:41, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Turning the clock back to where a claim was first made about the status of Rough Tower it becomes obvious that the initial claim was based upon a basic untruth. According to the Wired magazine for July, 2000, Michael Bates claimed that his father's lawyer had found a loophole in international law called "dereliction of sovereignty" and that the Bates family "took over the sovereignty that the British government had derelicted." However, Rough Tower was not an island and it was never sovereign territory. Rough Tower was what remained of the former HMS Roughs which had been sunk on Rough Sands. The word dereliction has been used as a substitute for the word abandonment, but the two words have different meanings. The UK had never abandoned claims to ownership of Rough Tower, because its taxpayers paid for the buoys to be placed around it with the words "Rough Tower" painted on them. Rough Tower itself may have been left idle and may not have been in the best shape, but not caring for something is not the same as throwing something away. More than this a ship or vessel is registered with a sovereign country, it cannot register itself with itself. It was this basic point that the US Administrative Court heard and ruled upon in 1990 and reaffirmed on appeal in 1991. By sticking to the facts in evidence and using only the claims made by the Bates family, it becomes obvious that the story of turning a sunken ship into a sovereign nation is without foundation in fact, in reality or in law. I intend to add more NPOV factual documentation from reliable sources to establish this matter beyond question of doubt. MPLX/MH 18:24, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In view of the current discussion and the invitation at the top of this page to edit it further, I have now done so and created new content. MPLX/MH 02:59, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This article is documenting on ongoing investigation. As of November 9, 2004 I have managed to discover how and why "Sealand" exists. It does not exist as a country but as a former Royal Navy vessel that squatters first occupied back in 1967. According to Crown Estate this boat is sitting on their land at Rough Sands. The person contributing to this article is now awaiting information as to why the squatters have not been evicted to date. As soon as this information is received it will be added to the article. The problem began back in 1968 when Justice Chapman made the mistake of assuming that Rough Tower is not a ship, because according to a transcript that is what he said. Had he known that it was a ship a different branch of law would have been applied and this saga would not have continued to the present day. The British Government claim that Rough Tower is chattel occupying Crown land. Had Justice Chapman known that it was a boat then Admiralty law would have been applied. MPLX/MH 01:13, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Okay, so in response to "Let's request mediation", the answer, from both sides, is apparently "Argue argue argue roar argue roar".
Yeah, that's great. Seriously though, why don't we request mediation? - Rwv37 00:31, May 11, 2004 (UTC)
Mediation might be useful if we were dealing with a rational individual; instead we are dealing with Wik, who is a crackpot, a content-perverter and radical POV-pushing vandal with precisely zero interest in permitting any facts that are at variance with his/her perception of reality into Wikipedia.-- Gene_poole 01:27, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
I found the paragraph beginning "In 1978, while the Prince was away, Sealand's then Prime Minister, Professor Alexander G Achenbach and several Dutch citizens forcibly took over Roughs Tower and held Prince Roy's son..." rather confusing. When was Achenbach prime minister? How did this fit in with the "royalty"? Why was Achenbach so motivated to assert control over Sealand? Why did the other countries involved in the dispute care? Zashaw 02:00, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
What is confusing about it? The facts are described fairly clearly. Achenbach's status as Prime Minister is historically well-known (he was appointed by Prince Roy), and the motivations of other countries (specifically Germany and the UK) should be self evident. Germany obviously sought the release of one of its nationals (Achenbach), who was being held against his will on Sealand, and the UK refused to become inviolved, forcing German diplomats to deal directly with Sealand's Prince. The takeover attempt was basically a failed re-run of what happened when Roy himself ejected a group of competing pirate radio broadcasters from Roughs Tower in the 1960s - before occupying it and renaming it Sealand. The episode basically boils down to a desire to control of a valuable physical resource by 2 competing groups. Nothing unusual there, other than the size of the resource being fought over, and its unclear legal status.-- Gene_poole 03:51, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Why does this piece of nonsense merit an article in a serious encyclopaedia? Adam 09:23, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Because what from your POV is "nonsense" may well be a subject of serious interest to others.-- Gene_poole 09:33, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Whether or not you agree with Sealand or any historical event, for that matter, does not mean its nonsense. Its actually quite interesting that such a thing could happen.
I removed mention of overseas government employees from "population", as they are not part of that entity's population.
I also added some scare quotes round disputed stuff in the taxobox. Martin 22:04, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
To start the conversation rolling: what factual errors do people believe this page has? My initial understanding of the above talk is that the primary concern is one of implication (eg, the taxobox implying countryship), and neutrality (how much priority to accord the minority belief that Sealand is a state), rather than any dispute over the facts of the matter. What have I missed? Martin 22:24, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for confirming that you are not disputing the factual accuracy of any explicit statements in the article, only implications and the question of how much space to accord to the "crackpot belief" regards Sealand being a state.
This sounds like a general disagreement over the appropriate use of the accuracy dispute header. You believe that it could be used whenever an article implies something that someone believes is not true, or gives disproportionate space to a minority opinion. My prior understanding is that such matters are neutrality disputes, and that accuracy disputes should be used for cases where we have reason to suspect that the direct factual statements of an article are inaccurate.
Perhaps you could discuss this issue with me and others at wikipedia talk:accuracy dispute, since it clearly affects more than this one article? Martin 23:50, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The article clearly articulates in the opening paragraphs that according to generally accepted definitions Sealand is NOT a state. How Gzornenplatz can possibly interpret this as a claim that Sealand is a state is completely beyond me. There are no "implications that Sealand is a state" in the article. The article does include indisputable statements of documented historic fact that show it to be an anomalous entity of some sort. -- Gene_poole 00:47, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I regret that I did not understand precisely the point you were making. I am glad that I explained what I thought your position was, so that this misunderstanding could be corrected.
I was stating my prior understanding of the appropriate use of "accuracy dispute" headers. It appeared your understanding differs. Hence my thought that a wider discussion might be helpful. I am glad that you have started that at wikipedia talk:accuracy dispute, and I have joined you there.
I see that Gene Poole has removed the biased section header "domestic law", in favour of a more neutral wording. I have made a few changes myself, though I am not attached to any of them. Given those edits, could you tell us what outstanding concerns you have with this article? Martin 16:16, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)
As far as accuracy dispute goes, the most egregious POV in the article I see now is the heading 'Royal family' that implies support for a claim that is only held by a small minority. No other sovereign nation supports the claim of a Sealand Royalty. The Sealand "royalty" is entirely self proclaimed, so a heading like that is POV. The only reason I have not changed it is I cannot think of something less POV that does not state something like 'Self described royalty status'. In addition none of the references seem to be from those critical of Sealand's claim to sovereignty. -
Taxman 19:02, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
The legal opinions referenced in the 'Legal opinions regarding Sealand' section fall far short of a full citation. The second doesn't have anything but the attorney's name. What were they published in, if at all, and here can they be found now? If these details cannot be found, the section should be removed as unsubstantiated POV. - Taxman 19:02, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
I have come up with an idea I think can help the POV debate. As noted above some sections of the article are POV because they assert an objective agreement to the claims of Sealand's sovereignty even though these claims are disputed. Therefore to obtain NPOV I think a number of the sections that make or imply such claims should be made subsections of a new section titled 'Ostensible features of sovereignty'. The sections that should be moved include "Royal family", "Constitution and internal affairs", "Stamps", "Coins", and perhaps all of the infobox, but especially the flag, seal, and motto. The term ostensible covers the fact that the claims have been made, but not accepted by the majority. It also does not say they are false. Unless consensus objection to this proposal is made, I will make this move in a week. -
Taxman 20:04, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC) (Initial proposal withdrawn as it has been largely satisfied by other means) -
Taxman 13:17, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
I object. To delete the taxobox would be for Wikipedia to make a claim that we do not support the claims of nation-hood, which is itself a POV. Sealand exists. Although its natioinhood is laughable, we can't pretend that it doesn't. It's not a micronation which exists only in Cyberspace. Rick K 20:12, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Rick. The unrecognised anomalous nature of Sealand entity is not merely implied via such means as the proliferation of inverted commas, but is explicitly stated numerous times throughout the article. The 'Royal family', 'Constitution and internal affairs', 'Stamps', 'Coins' all specifically explicity state the nature, status and legitimacy of subjects that are factual (and in the case of physical artefacts, tangible and widely documented). in a clear, concise NPOV manner. Further qualification serves no purpose other than to push the article back into the POV realm from which it has recently been rescued. -- Gene_poole 20:40, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I find this to be an interesting article and I have been following the dispute for some time. I think the idea of Sealand is interesting, and its status leads to some useful discussion and questions, particularly since of the various "micronations" it has the most compelling claim to soverignty as well as being the only one that has any economic activity tied to its status as a micronation. I don't believe that it is useful or necessary for Wikipedia to take a stance on its nationhood.
If it demonstrates anything at all, Sealand shows us that nationhood is more of a continuum than a yes/no question. There are other examples of smaller nations whose significance on the international scene is low and whose dependence on closely related nations is high, though these places have a longer tradition of nationhood and a larger permanent population.
Given the inclusive nature of Wikipedia generally, and style and usage on other controversial articles, I think that it is appropriate to leave the taxobox as is and avoid adding "weasel words" to the various headings. I think it enough to point out, once, that the "price" and "princess" and "currency" and "stamps" and flag and other trappings are based on a doubtful claim of authority. This is a matter of style and usage, not POV, since as a matter of style we do not repeatedly use "purported" or "ostensible" or other weasel words throughout other articles explaining controversial (or even doubtful) topics.
uc 20:44, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Taxman, you said you would delete the taxobox unless you got objections. You've now gotten objections and are arguing that you still should be allowed to delete the taxobox. You should stand by your first proposal. Rick K 22:46, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
You have to grant that there are two levels of information in the article, those posited by Sealand supporters (royalty etc.), and then the verifiable facts (legal cases, etc). Not accepting this is keeping a strong POV in the article, even if the text says differently. The Sealand issue does not need more than its facts to be an interesting case, and anything but NPOV ruins its believability. - Taxman 02:22, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)
I have changed the two section headings to which you object. The second of the two I feel to be less than ideal, but I can think of no other way of describing a section about Sealand's constitution and internal affairs without actually using those words. If you have an alternative please change it. -- Gene_poole 01:18, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have discovered today with the greatest interest this article and this talk page. I felt a bit disappointed to find in the article so few details underpinning the most surprising assertion according which Sealand would be a state as defined under Montevideo Convention, since it fulfils the condition of a "permanent population". I see further above in the article that the population number is 1, who seems to be Mr Michael Bates, according to the article Paddy Roy Bates.
Does this mean that Mr Michael Bates never leaves the controversial territory ? Or how should this criterion of "permanent population" be understood ?
French Tourist 21:34, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It is my understanding that the Roughs Tower facility has been continually occupied since the Bates' initial occupation by members of the family themselves, and by various business partners and associates, in varying numbers that have never exceeded a handful. Were it not so there is no doubt the UK would have re-taken and destroyed it long ago, as they did with all the other Sea Forts subsequent to Sealand's creation.-- Gene_poole 23:14, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
J.J., given that this is a disputed article, you should be more careful on what you add to the intro. Using words like "odd fantasy" and "highly eccentric", are POV at best and quarrelsome at worst. It is especially POV to use the "some say" weasel word. A statement like that would need an attribution to not be POV. With those changes, it may be a good addition to the intro. - Taxman 12:59, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)
The initial description of this topic is factually incorrect. In the second paragraph it is incorrectly stated that: "Sealand consists of a World War II-era fortress constructed by the United Kingdom in the North Sea ..." This is incorrect. It was not constructed in the North Sea. The factual history of this entity shows that it is the former HMS Roughs, a Royal Navy vessel constructed and launched from Southern England and floated into position fully staffed with troops. When the barge was position over Rough Sands sandbar the vessel's hold was flooded so that it settled on to the sandbar itself. The two legs and the remaining structure that is visable above the water line is in fact the superstructure built into the hold of the vessel. Various vandals demolished parts of the superstructure before the Bates family squatted on the former HMS Roughs. Because all Royal Navy forts such as HMS Roughs were vessels built in England and floated into position, they are sunken Royal Navy vessels. They were not forts constructed in the North Sea. UK Ordinance Survey maps refer to the site as Rough Tower. - 10:52, Sep 21, 2004 64.63.217.118
Overlooked in all of the discussion on this topic is the very name of this alleged "nation". It has been called a "principality". A principality is not self-created, it is created by a principal sovereign power having both jurisdiction and authority to convey a sub-authority or a lesser authority on its principality. In the case of Monaco the power resides jointly with France and Spain, although it is my understanding that if the Prince's line fails that the Principality of Monaco will revert back to France. In the case in question there is a self-admission by Roy Bates of how he came up with the name and when and where he did so. It was in a pub over a beer. What sparked his remarks is found in UK events of the day. At that time Her Majesty the Queen was about to convey upon her son the title of Prince of Wales in order that he may represent the Principality of Wales. Wales is a principality and Scotland is a co-joined nation with England sharing the same monarchy. The entity in question concerning Roy Bates is a former Royal Navy barge with a superstructure. Ample pictures abound of this vessel being towed to her position over Rough Sands and her hold being flooded so that she sank on to the sandbar with a complete crew of many men. There is also ample evidence to show that the UK Ministry of Defence has always maintained the buoys around Rough Tower (the official H.M. Ordinance Survey map name for the structure today.) Roy Bates has made many claims about starting radio and TV stations, casinos, hotels, etc on or around Rough Tower and not one of them has come to pass (with the exception of his original Radio Essex/BBMS on another former sunken Royal Navy barge-fort which a British court forced him to close down in 1966.) The UK government has prevented every move at flouting UK law. The same goes for Havenco Ltd which began as a British registered company (the evidence may be obtained on line Monday-Friday UK business hours from DTI Companies House.) The mail to Rough Tower is by pick-up at a UK Post Office. There are no unauthorized UK electronic links that exist between Rough Tower and any mainland. But before the entire saga was spelled out on this site, the very name issue should have been addressed and the actual confession of Roy Bates should have been taken into account. MPLX/MH 01:28, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I took a look at Wiktionary for its definition of Principality:
Etymology From Latin principalitas, from adjective principalis, principal, + noun of state suffix -itas. principalis is from prin-, prim-, from primus, first, + cip-, from caput, head, + adjective suffix -alis.
Noun principality, plural principalities A region or sovereign nation headed by a prince or princess.
and then I took a look at the definition of Prince:
Etymology From French prince, from Latin princeps, literally "first head", from primus, first, + ceps, head, related to capitus, head
Noun prince, plural princes male ruler or head of a principality son of a prince, king, queen, emperor, or empress, or some other rank like a grand duke
It would seem that this is nothing but an old play upon the Steve Martin skit of "You can be a millionaire and never pay taxes". You say, "Steve, how can I be a millionaire and never pay taxes?" Steve replies, "First get a million dollars. Second ..."
The key is to deal with first things first. In this case the question is: "Where is the king, queen, emperor, or empress, or some other rank like a grand duke who is alleged to have given "Prince Roy" the ability to rule a principality? The answer is that none exists because his authority came from drinking something alcoholic at a pub - according to his own admission told many times to many people and publications.
The bottom line is this: to become a prince you first have to get your title from some royal family line. But there is no royal family line. The Bates family have never shown that they are the heirs to some distant and forgotten throne. If we trace the royal powers back as far as the "Christian world" is concerned, then most of those powers flowed from the Catholic Church or something similar. In other words there is always a line. In this case the line starts and ends in a waiting line to be served at a pub! Those are the facts and they have never been disputed because that is exactly what Roy Bates has said.
The issues concerning local court jurisdictions involving firearms are related to firearms, they are not related to the issue of any royal genealogy.
Finally there is the issue of the Royal Navy barge itself. Because it was a naval vessel and it sank - even if it was intentional - the question is whether a civilian can take possession of a military wreck, when the military still claim it. Proof of the fact that the Ministry of Defence still claim liability for it is in the actual buoys surrounding Rough Tower with "Rough Tower" painted on them! Those buoys even show up in photos taken by fans from Rough Tower!
This is just silly beyond belief.
But because this first issue fails, then the entire saga also fails as nothing but a joke and Wikipedia is involved in a non-issue, which is how the UK and USA view "Sealand". MPLX/MH 23:33, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Under the heading above directed to Wiki contributors I have posted some additional and new information to this page because it documents the court case that worried Ryan Lackey. I also made the comment that Roy Bates has always known about this case. Should anyone wonder how I know this to be a fact, I personally spoke to Roy, Joan and Michael Bates about all of this many times by phone years ago - some of which I recorded. Roy was none too pleased with the USA case and he was very unhappy with his son Michael who had concluded the deal with Allan H. Weiner. The matter originally came before Judge Chachkin because Allan Weiner was seeking a license for a shortwave station in Maine (which he eventually was granted), but because the FCC had previously revoked his earlier licenses due to his land-based "pirate radio" broadcasts which were followed twice by his attempts to broadcast from the sea (the second time claiming the "authority of Sealand"), all of this came before the court for a proper resolution and it was resolved. There is no such country as "Sealand". There is a sunken Royal Navy barge upon which someone painted the word "Sealand", but that is all. MPLX/MH 00:16, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The following are not opinions, they are not POV, they are well documented and recorded facts:
1. Rough Tower is the name that exists on the official UK Ordinance Survey maps;
2. Rough Tower is the name painted on UK Ministry of Defence buoys marking Rough Tower;
3. Rough Tower is actually two towers joined by a platform above the surface and below the surface the two towers form the superstructure of HMS Roughs, a WWII Royal Navy barge sunk on Rough Sands.
4. Rough Tower is not an island but the superstructure of a former Royal Navy boat.
5. Rough Sands is a part of the UK as established by the fact that the USA and UN all agree that Rough Sands is a part of the UK and there are no international disputes to the contrary.
6. A USA federal court case settled the issue about Rough Tower in 1990-1991 and found that "Sealand" does not exist.
7. Roy Bates has stated that he was in a pub having a drink with his wife Joan when he dreamed up the idea of making her a princess.
8. The occasion that gave rise to the "Sealand" myth was the naming of Prince Charles as the Prince of the Principality of Wales by his mother, the sovereign.
9. No sovereign has ever confered any title of prince on Roy Bates.
10. A principality can only be created by a principal state.
11. The UK being the principal state having jurisdiction has never created a principality on Rough Sands.
12. Military wrecks are not subject to the same laws as ordinary vessels for salvage purposes and HMS Roughs is a military wreck.
If someone would kindly address those basic issues we might be able to clean up this absurd page and get rid of both a hoax and an inducement to financial fraud. MPLX/MH 19:46, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There is already a Principality of Sealand page which for some illogical reason is redirected to this page which looks as if it is/was a disambiguation page. I suggest that the contents of this page are moved to Principality of Sealand page and that this Sealand page is redirected to Sealand (disambiguation) because there is already a Sealand in Wales that is recognized as a part of the United Kingdom and it is also the location of both a famous RAF Sealand and a USAF base. Then there is the are the areas of Holland known and recognized in the English language as Sealand and the hotel in Hong Kong, China known as Sealand, and of course the world famous shipping company known as Sealand. It is therefore logical that the redirect from the existing "Principality of Sealand" should be removed and that a redirect placed on this Sealand page to Sealand (disambiguation). At least that would be a logical and sensible start to clearing up this mess and it can be done with little effort. MPLX/MH 18:36, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Why is the annon. user 129.44.241.52 simply reverting text? How does that help? 129.44.241.52 is logging on from the general area of Buffao, NY.
I was asked by Jao the following question:
Are you denying that the "Principality of Sealand" is an example of entities that resemble independent states, but for the most part exist only on paper, on the Internet, or in the minds of their creators (which is our present definition of micronation, taken from that article)? True, we don't see into Roy Bates's mind, but I don't think we have to doubt that therein, if nowhere else, the entity does exist. Perhaps you are confusing micronations with microstates? -- Jao 08:51, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
Well the article plainly stated that it was a microstate, but called it a micronation, which is downright confusing, if the entire subject was not confusing to begin with. So I have added that definition to state that it is considered by its creators to be a microstate and not a micronation. How else can this daft article begin by saying that it is a sovereign nation and end up by contradicting itself and stating that it is not? The contradiction appears in the first lines after the words Principality of Sealand. It begs a simple, two-three line explanation of what it is - which does not contradict itself or commonsense. Of course the only problem is with the definition of microstate is that no nation has ever agreed that the Principality of Sealand exists (as Jao correctly stated), anywhere but in the mind of Roy Bates and those of his fan club. MPLX/MH 21:31, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I for one respect Sealand and think of it as a totaly independent principality. David
And do you ahve any other such state topics? David
The above editor is attempting to delete the following sentence, on the grounds that it is POV:
Although it remains unrecognized, various factors give Sealand one of the strongest claims to statehood among micronations.
I contend that the statement is both factual and NPOV, for the following reasons:
1. Sealand is unrecognised. The first part of the sentence is therefore factually correct.
2. Sealand does have one of the strongest claims to legitimacy as a sovereign state amongst micronations. No other known micronation has anything even approaching the level of Sealand's claims to legitimacy. The second part of the sentence is therefore also factually correct.-- Gene_poole 06:06, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I don't dispute the first part, but it is redundant with the previous mention that it is a "micronation" (which implies non-recognition) and the following sentence which begins "Were it ever recognized". The second part is clearly POV, simply because one may well believe that it has no claims to legitimacy (and thus no more than any other micronation). Gzornenplatz 06:47, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)
This is not a discussion about Sealand's "legitimacy" or "official status"; it is a discussion about whether the claims to legitimacy Sealand makes have more of a basis in reality, based on legal and historic precedents, than those of other micronations. The objective answer to this is indisputably affirmative. -- Gene_poole 08:34, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I wrote that sentence and was considering taking it out myself. It is POV to state that X has the strongest claim to anything. It is an interpretation of the facts and someone else may interpret it differently or even flat out disagree. Therefore it is a POV. - Taxman 12:12, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)
Suggested rewrite:
Although it remains unrecognized, many consider Sealand to have one of the strongest claims to statehood among micronations, due to various factors and events.
- KeithTyler 18:36, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)
The problem with this article is that it begins by assuming something. It assumes that an island land exists that can be declared independent. The fact of the matter is that what is being discussed is a sunken barge whose twin towers poking above the shallow waters are in fact the superstructure of the sunken barge. Second: This barge was a military vessel. Third: This military vessel known either as HMS Rough's or HM Fort Roughs was built in England and towed to the Rough Sands where the hold was flooded so that it sank gently on the bottom with the Royal Navy crew and other staff on board. Pictures of the building and sinking exist. Fourth: In a pub Roy Bates joked about making the sunken barge into a principality to mimic the Principality of Wales with Prince Charles as the Prince of Wales being imitated by Roy Bates. The Queen made her son Prince of Wales of a real land. A sunken barge is not a land of any type. Fifth: By sleight of hand the uninitiated have been hoodwinked into accepting that the word "derelict" means "abandoned". It does not. The Ministry of Defence have never abandoned claim after their predecessor the Ministry of War placed the barge at that location and to this very day the UK taxpayers pay for the identification buoys surrounding "Rough Tower" with those words painted upon them. You can argue all you want to about territory but first you have to find some territory and there is none. Not only that but this matter was decided in a US court of law with UK participation in 1990-1991 and those findings have never been challenged by anyone, let alone the Bates family. This is a joke and a sham dispute about something that does not exist. Find the land then we can find the dispute. MPLX/MH 21:57, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I found an entry for the Flat Earth Society and one for Flat Earth! Clearly there needs to be disamgiguation pages for myth, fraud and hoax with "Sealand" linked to them and all of these topics need to be written from a sane POV (how can you be NPOV about insanity?) The topics need to show that myths can also mean fantasy, something that does not really exist. There needs to be a link to the word fraud and another to the word hoax and another to the words criminal acts. MPLX/MH 00:03, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thank you Gene for the link. I have not only taken a look at the link but made a note of its contents because I believe that you have answered the entire remaining issue. The question has been raised: "What is the legal definition of defamation?"
The answer is very interesting in the context of "Sealand" because it also addresses the problems encountered with the false ship registration claims and Ryan Lackey's problems which caused him to quit Havenco (and both the ship issue the Havenco legal issues are related - see Ryan Lackey's own web site.)
The elements that must be proved to establish defamation are: (1) A publication to one other than the person defamed; (2) of a false statement of fact; (3) which is understood as being of and concerning the plaintiff; and (4) which is understood in such a way as to tend to harm the reputation of plaintiff.
(1) "Sealand" is not a person but the name of activities taking place on a boat which had a voyage and which was sunk. (2) Claiming that a sunken Royal Navy boat can be taken over by private individuals and declared a sovereign country is in itself a false statement of fact. It denies reality and it is false on its face. (3) The would-be "plaintiff" is a sunken boat, which means that this would be an In Rem ("the thing") case. Since the ownership of the boat would be at issue there would be competing claims as to who represented the "plaintiff": The UK government who built and paid for it and have marked it by their taxpayer buoys, or the Bates family who are mere squatters on someone else's property. (4) Since the "plaintiff" would be disputed the only people to have harmed the real owner (UK) would be the "defendant", namely the Roy, Joan and Michael Bates and hangers on.
Gene, I believe you have just resolved this entire article as being a fantasy of nonsense spawning criminal acts. MPLX/MH 16:04, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This article page was created specifically for an article about the "Principality of Sealand". However, at this time there is no entry on the Principality of Sealand page other than a redirect to a page named Sealand. That page contains partial disambiguation and the article about the "Principality of Sealand". However there now exists a more complete Sealand (disambiguation) page. In order to straighten this mess out the article presently on the Sealand page should be removed here and the redirect link on the Principality of Sealand page should be removed and a redirect inserted on Sealand page to the Sealand (disambiguation) page. MPLX/MH 15:41, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Turning the clock back to where a claim was first made about the status of Rough Tower it becomes obvious that the initial claim was based upon a basic untruth. According to the Wired magazine for July, 2000, Michael Bates claimed that his father's lawyer had found a loophole in international law called "dereliction of sovereignty" and that the Bates family "took over the sovereignty that the British government had derelicted." However, Rough Tower was not an island and it was never sovereign territory. Rough Tower was what remained of the former HMS Roughs which had been sunk on Rough Sands. The word dereliction has been used as a substitute for the word abandonment, but the two words have different meanings. The UK had never abandoned claims to ownership of Rough Tower, because its taxpayers paid for the buoys to be placed around it with the words "Rough Tower" painted on them. Rough Tower itself may have been left idle and may not have been in the best shape, but not caring for something is not the same as throwing something away. More than this a ship or vessel is registered with a sovereign country, it cannot register itself with itself. It was this basic point that the US Administrative Court heard and ruled upon in 1990 and reaffirmed on appeal in 1991. By sticking to the facts in evidence and using only the claims made by the Bates family, it becomes obvious that the story of turning a sunken ship into a sovereign nation is without foundation in fact, in reality or in law. I intend to add more NPOV factual documentation from reliable sources to establish this matter beyond question of doubt. MPLX/MH 18:24, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In view of the current discussion and the invitation at the top of this page to edit it further, I have now done so and created new content. MPLX/MH 02:59, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This article is documenting on ongoing investigation. As of November 9, 2004 I have managed to discover how and why "Sealand" exists. It does not exist as a country but as a former Royal Navy vessel that squatters first occupied back in 1967. According to Crown Estate this boat is sitting on their land at Rough Sands. The person contributing to this article is now awaiting information as to why the squatters have not been evicted to date. As soon as this information is received it will be added to the article. The problem began back in 1968 when Justice Chapman made the mistake of assuming that Rough Tower is not a ship, because according to a transcript that is what he said. Had he known that it was a ship a different branch of law would have been applied and this saga would not have continued to the present day. The British Government claim that Rough Tower is chattel occupying Crown land. Had Justice Chapman known that it was a boat then Admiralty law would have been applied. MPLX/MH 01:13, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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