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I wonder is name "Balaton Principality" a best choice for this article? "Balaton" is just modern magyarized name of the area and in the time when this principality existed, there were no Hungarians in the area. Also, some sources that I saw about this mention the principality under names "Pannonia" or "Pannonian Principality", so perhaps we can change name of this article into "Pannonian Principality"? PANONIAN (talk) 18:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Theoretically no problem, but Pannonian principality is also the name of Savia in some texts and you should be sure that Balaton principality is not used in English texs (have you checked that somehow?)....But what interests me is your interesting last addition of territories - as far as I know, no Slovak source clains that those territories were in the principality, so you should add which author claims that. Personally I think you or someone is confusing this Pannonia with the other Croatian Pannonia. Juro 20:28, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
in euratlas.com , it is called 'country on the Save" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hxseek ( talk • contribs) 10:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Try the conversion of the bavarians and carantans of Salzburg early sources,
http://www.amazon.de/Conversio-Bagoariorum-Carantanorum-Erzbischofs-Theotmar/dp/3775254153/ref=sr_1_1/028-3021403-2442920?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189800444&sr=8-1--
Vargatamas
20:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I added Western Slavs which seems to be more acceptable with a reliable source. Later other theories/versions with other sources may be added. Squash Racket ( talk) 11:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Could somebody please explain this sentence to me? "The principality was one of the several Slavic states and groups connecting the areas inhabited by Slavs before they were divided into the northern and the southern Slavs by the conquests of the Franks, the arrival of the Magyars in Pannonia, and later by the expansion of the Romanians." I am confused. What did the Romanians do at the Principality of Balaton after the arrival of the Magyars in Pannonia? Maybe I do not know something, however I think the sentence is obscure. Fakirbakir ( talk) 08:35, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
bones as waste in a territory of Zalavár by Hungarian archeologist Szőke Béla Miklós http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bzVNy8HNSsk/TckjGQhVs2I/AAAAAAAAAT0/pfUgm8gd2Vo/s1600/blat+kosti.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omen1229 ( talk • contribs) 21:52, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
If my understanding is correct this polity was a "principality" ruled by a "dux/duke" (Pribina) and later by a "comes/count" (Kocel'). What is the reliable source based on which it is called "principality"? Borsoka ( talk) 08:56, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
If my understanding is correct, most of the territories of this "principality" (including its seat near Lake Balaton) were situated in the ancient province of UPPER Pannonia. What is the reliable source based on which it is called "of Lower Pannonia"? Borsoka ( talk) 08:56, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
This article needs additional sources and verification because it may contain POV statements (counties as Blatno County?? Ptuj County?? Dudlebian County??, actual territory). Is there any primary source about name of Blatnograd? I thought it was Moosburg/Mosapurc/Urbs Paludarum in contemporary sources. Fakirbakir ( talk) 18:52, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
I did read that there was Germanic continuity (Gepids) toward the 'age of Avars' in Transdanubia. See: [8] Is there any presumably Germanic cemetery in the 8-9th centuries in Transdanubia? Fakirbakir ( talk) 08:42, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
78.92.241.92 ( talk) 23:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC) Besides of 'Great'? Moravia instead slightly Moravia please allow me to ask the editor(s) of this nonhistoric article: When You wrote Pribina was expelled from Nitra by Mojmir and came after some adventures to Mosapurc, where he simply fled to and got an estate granted as frankish vassal, how could he "settle on his father's land"? Why would an estate be a "principality"? Became he the "Prince of the Franks", or of the Moravians who expelled him and had no influence in this territory? Or did much Slavs come along with him, or knew they to invade Mosapurc before awaiting the Salvador Pribina, since You mention e.g. Avars living there since good two and half hundreds of years (Solitodum Avarorum) as nothing essential? I support here also the right question about Romanians there. Etc. Pribina had to flee from Nitra (inside Carpathians) just under Moravia (core land outside Carpathians) and was allowed to settle as vassal shortly for a couple of years, and that was it all. It is as simple. All other is mere neo-slavic fiction without any evidence and citation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism_and_ancient_history : Nationalism has provided a significant framework for historical writing in Europe and in those former colonies influenced by Europe since the nineteenth century. According to the medievalist historian Patrick J. Geary: "[The] modern [study of] history was born in the nineteenth century, conceived and developed as an instrument of European nationalism. As a tool of nationalist ideology, the history of Europe's nations was a great success, but it has turned our understanding of the past into a toxic waste dump, filled with the poison of ethnic nationalism, and the poison has seeped deep into popular consciousness." - truehistory
The result of the move request was: no consensus. It's a pity that the nominator didn't construct the Google search per the instructions at WP:COMMONNAME, and that editors who critiqued it didn't link to an improved search. A further discussion with better evidence might produce a different result. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 13:46, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Principality of Lower Pannonia →
Balaton Principality – More frequent name, it has 73 Google Books hits
[9], "Principality of Lower Pannonia" has only 5 hits
[10]. --Relisted.
walk
victor falk
talk 21:08, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Fakirbakir (
talk)
09:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Gbooks hits has "Balaton principality" (7) versus "Principality of Lower Pannonia" (4). In Slovak, "Blatenské kniežatstvo" (14) is used.-- Zoupan 02:47, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
Can I just point out please that whoever typed Lower Pannonia across the infobox image needs geography classes. That (between the Raba and Drava) is Upper Pannonia. If anyone knows how, please correct it. 92.40.248.110 ( talk) 09:34, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
In fact the whole article has been misnamed thanks to an unmonitored and uncorrected move https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Balaton_Principality&oldid=447618398 by a disruptive editor who has since quit wikipedia User:PANONIAN. It should be restored to its original name Balaton Principality which wa←s UPPER Pannonia *never* Lower Pannonia. 94.197.121.137 ( talk) 10:14, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
He must have confused Pribina, Ban of Croatia with Pribina. 94.197.121.137 ( talk) 10:16, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
This article was originally about the Balaton Principality but seems to have turned into a content fork on Pannonian Croatia. I suggest butchering the article merging part with March of Pannonia, part with a new article on Pannonian Croatia, part with a new article on Lower Pannonia and the remainder into a new article dedicated to the Balaton Principality. And finally deleting this page name. But that is way too much work for me. 188.29.164.60 ( talk) 12:07, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
![]() | The contents of the Principality of Lower Pannonia page were merged into Pannonian Slavs#Principality on 31 December 2020. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history. |
![]() | This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||
|
I wonder is name "Balaton Principality" a best choice for this article? "Balaton" is just modern magyarized name of the area and in the time when this principality existed, there were no Hungarians in the area. Also, some sources that I saw about this mention the principality under names "Pannonia" or "Pannonian Principality", so perhaps we can change name of this article into "Pannonian Principality"? PANONIAN (talk) 18:34, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Theoretically no problem, but Pannonian principality is also the name of Savia in some texts and you should be sure that Balaton principality is not used in English texs (have you checked that somehow?)....But what interests me is your interesting last addition of territories - as far as I know, no Slovak source clains that those territories were in the principality, so you should add which author claims that. Personally I think you or someone is confusing this Pannonia with the other Croatian Pannonia. Juro 20:28, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
in euratlas.com , it is called 'country on the Save" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hxseek ( talk • contribs) 10:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Try the conversion of the bavarians and carantans of Salzburg early sources,
http://www.amazon.de/Conversio-Bagoariorum-Carantanorum-Erzbischofs-Theotmar/dp/3775254153/ref=sr_1_1/028-3021403-2442920?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189800444&sr=8-1--
Vargatamas
20:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I added Western Slavs which seems to be more acceptable with a reliable source. Later other theories/versions with other sources may be added. Squash Racket ( talk) 11:07, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Could somebody please explain this sentence to me? "The principality was one of the several Slavic states and groups connecting the areas inhabited by Slavs before they were divided into the northern and the southern Slavs by the conquests of the Franks, the arrival of the Magyars in Pannonia, and later by the expansion of the Romanians." I am confused. What did the Romanians do at the Principality of Balaton after the arrival of the Magyars in Pannonia? Maybe I do not know something, however I think the sentence is obscure. Fakirbakir ( talk) 08:35, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
bones as waste in a territory of Zalavár by Hungarian archeologist Szőke Béla Miklós http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bzVNy8HNSsk/TckjGQhVs2I/AAAAAAAAAT0/pfUgm8gd2Vo/s1600/blat+kosti.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omen1229 ( talk • contribs) 21:52, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
If my understanding is correct this polity was a "principality" ruled by a "dux/duke" (Pribina) and later by a "comes/count" (Kocel'). What is the reliable source based on which it is called "principality"? Borsoka ( talk) 08:56, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
If my understanding is correct, most of the territories of this "principality" (including its seat near Lake Balaton) were situated in the ancient province of UPPER Pannonia. What is the reliable source based on which it is called "of Lower Pannonia"? Borsoka ( talk) 08:56, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
This article needs additional sources and verification because it may contain POV statements (counties as Blatno County?? Ptuj County?? Dudlebian County??, actual territory). Is there any primary source about name of Blatnograd? I thought it was Moosburg/Mosapurc/Urbs Paludarum in contemporary sources. Fakirbakir ( talk) 18:52, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
I did read that there was Germanic continuity (Gepids) toward the 'age of Avars' in Transdanubia. See: [8] Is there any presumably Germanic cemetery in the 8-9th centuries in Transdanubia? Fakirbakir ( talk) 08:42, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
78.92.241.92 ( talk) 23:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC) Besides of 'Great'? Moravia instead slightly Moravia please allow me to ask the editor(s) of this nonhistoric article: When You wrote Pribina was expelled from Nitra by Mojmir and came after some adventures to Mosapurc, where he simply fled to and got an estate granted as frankish vassal, how could he "settle on his father's land"? Why would an estate be a "principality"? Became he the "Prince of the Franks", or of the Moravians who expelled him and had no influence in this territory? Or did much Slavs come along with him, or knew they to invade Mosapurc before awaiting the Salvador Pribina, since You mention e.g. Avars living there since good two and half hundreds of years (Solitodum Avarorum) as nothing essential? I support here also the right question about Romanians there. Etc. Pribina had to flee from Nitra (inside Carpathians) just under Moravia (core land outside Carpathians) and was allowed to settle as vassal shortly for a couple of years, and that was it all. It is as simple. All other is mere neo-slavic fiction without any evidence and citation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism_and_ancient_history : Nationalism has provided a significant framework for historical writing in Europe and in those former colonies influenced by Europe since the nineteenth century. According to the medievalist historian Patrick J. Geary: "[The] modern [study of] history was born in the nineteenth century, conceived and developed as an instrument of European nationalism. As a tool of nationalist ideology, the history of Europe's nations was a great success, but it has turned our understanding of the past into a toxic waste dump, filled with the poison of ethnic nationalism, and the poison has seeped deep into popular consciousness." - truehistory
The result of the move request was: no consensus. It's a pity that the nominator didn't construct the Google search per the instructions at WP:COMMONNAME, and that editors who critiqued it didn't link to an improved search. A further discussion with better evidence might produce a different result. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 13:46, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Principality of Lower Pannonia →
Balaton Principality – More frequent name, it has 73 Google Books hits
[9], "Principality of Lower Pannonia" has only 5 hits
[10]. --Relisted.
walk
victor falk
talk 21:08, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Fakirbakir (
talk)
09:12, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Gbooks hits has "Balaton principality" (7) versus "Principality of Lower Pannonia" (4). In Slovak, "Blatenské kniežatstvo" (14) is used.-- Zoupan 02:47, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
Can I just point out please that whoever typed Lower Pannonia across the infobox image needs geography classes. That (between the Raba and Drava) is Upper Pannonia. If anyone knows how, please correct it. 92.40.248.110 ( talk) 09:34, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
In fact the whole article has been misnamed thanks to an unmonitored and uncorrected move https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Balaton_Principality&oldid=447618398 by a disruptive editor who has since quit wikipedia User:PANONIAN. It should be restored to its original name Balaton Principality which wa←s UPPER Pannonia *never* Lower Pannonia. 94.197.121.137 ( talk) 10:14, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
He must have confused Pribina, Ban of Croatia with Pribina. 94.197.121.137 ( talk) 10:16, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
This article was originally about the Balaton Principality but seems to have turned into a content fork on Pannonian Croatia. I suggest butchering the article merging part with March of Pannonia, part with a new article on Pannonian Croatia, part with a new article on Lower Pannonia and the remainder into a new article dedicated to the Balaton Principality. And finally deleting this page name. But that is way too much work for me. 188.29.164.60 ( talk) 12:07, 9 October 2017 (UTC)