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I knew there will be problems:) with the surname of Soviet Armenian scolar Ter-Ghevondian, despite the neutral source marks the words of cezar Konstantin and cites 2 sources at the same time (one from Soviet Armenian scolar Ter-Ghevondian and the first one is a direct citation from the cezar Konstantin, which is surely neutral in this case). Anyways i didnt add this source to the description, and even have nothing against the mediation you asked for! I added this quote just for info as its dedicated to the topic of article! Andranikpasha 21:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Atabek, about Doswett I asked earlier, and related to Minorsky: I never deleted this: ""Caucasica IV", Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 15, No. 3. (1953), p. 504: "The territory of present-day Soviet republic of Azarbayjan roughly corresponds to the ancient Caucasian Albania"</ref>, which roughly corresponded to the territory of Soviet Azerbaijan", and more surely will never add it to the article, as I cant see any relation with the article's topic. Why you added this here? Andranikpasha 22:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Caucasian Albania was an ancient state and a geographic entity known for many centuries before. It's not "just a name of territory at that time". Why is it surprising for Albanian prince to ask Armenian monk to write a lawbook for Albanians (not Armenians)? After all Armenian monk made an alphabet for Georgians for example. And Eupator, please, "rbedrossian.com" is definitely not a neutral source appropriate for citation in this discussion. Thanks. Atabek 05:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
The removal of CJF Dowsett and Minorsky quotes in this article has still not been justified. Provided the substantial amount of one-sided POV pushing, I think it's necessary to have tags until all sides are willing and interested in neutrality of this article. Please discuss the references per mediation case opened above. Until valid reasons are provided for pushing one-sided POV against important and expert sources, the tags shall remain. Atabek 14:56, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Eupator, Dowsett and Minorsky sources are removed from this article. Please, insert the tag back. You cannot remove the POV tag when there is a dispute on the page. Your explanation above does not suffice. Atabek 23:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Vartan, thank you for providing your original source, which is not CJF Dowsett's authoritative article but his review of Armenian author's work on manuscripts. Caucasian Albania was distinct from Armenia, and wasn't a region of Eastern Armenia. Moreover, no such state as Armenia existed 9th century onwards when Khachen principality existed, so to claim that one historic-geographical region was part of another is a plain invention. The works of Dowsett, Minorsky, Smbatyan, Movses Kalankatuaci, etc. already established a strong evidence that Albanians were a group and country distinct from Armenians. As I said earlier, these are not a basis for pushing 2 Dowsett and 1 Minorsky references out of the page. Khachen was originally Albanian principality. Atabek 06:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster, Armenia didnt exist as an independent state in that period but an Armenian principality- Khachen (with Armenian population and Armenian rulers) save its independence. Do you know about Principality of Arzrunids or Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia (a state formed during the same centuries with an Armenian population and culture)? PS- Are you sure Armenians in the Khachen spoke Arranian language? First time Im hearing aboutn such a "version" (if to not mark V. Shnirelman's critics on Azerbaijani nationalism and "Albanian" myth). Andranikpasha 10:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Andranik, you have confusion in your paragraph above. Dowsett and Minorksy say that Khachen was in Albania or was ruled by Albanian princes. You're saying Armenia didn't exist, but Khachen was Armenian principality. And before mentioning little known Shnirelman again vs. research heavy-weights like Dowsett and Minorsky, please, mind WP:WEIGHT. Thanks. Atabek 18:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Eupator, how was the principality Armenian if it was in Albania and ruled by Albanian princes, and neither Albania or Armenia existed as states? Atabek 02:16, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Because the Albanian princes ruling it were Armenian. They just used the "Albanian" title as a matter of fashion. Just like Italian kings bore the title of "King of Armenia." Plus, the population was Armenian.-- TigranTheGreat 20:17, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
THanks. Atabek ( talk) 09:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC) We've been there, there is nothing remaining to debate about. Dowsett considers Khachen to be in Armenia. No addition quoted out of context will be made, Wikipedia shall not suffer because the region is now disputed. Also it is not up to you to determine what should and should not be in the article, you do not own it. -- TigranTheGreat ( talk) 10:09, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
It's not out of context, Khachen was an Albanian principality, which is reflected in Dowsett, Minorsky and even Moses Kalankatuaci. There is already an article Caucasian Albania, and no such thing as "Armenian Albania" every exists in any historical record or article reference. Atabek ( talk) 00:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
The issue does not seem to be one of sources, so much as interpretation of those sources. Some considerable time prior to the Hasan Jalalyan dynasty the area was part of what geographers at the time (50 AD) called Albania. During the more recent periods it was part of what geographers then called Armenia. As early as 387 AD in the Byzantium-Persia Treaty, Albania (old sense) was considered a subset of Armenia. By the 6th Century the name Albania was no longer used having been replaced by Arran. In the 8th Century Arran (to the east) was separated from Khachen (to the west), . Despite the "in-depth" research into scholarly tomes indulged in by the parties above, the article has not been expanded with regard to the origins of the Khachen state, nor with regard to its eventual demise. Would that activity not be more fruitful? -- Bejnar ( talk) 20:04, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
The page is full of POV and intended omission of two important expert references on the subject, CJF Dowsett and Vladimir Minorsky. Until the proper explanations and more balanced version are concluded, the POV tag shall remain on the page. There is more than sufficient historical references which claim this region as Albanian rather than Armenian principality. Atabek ( talk) 00:15, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Marshall, there is no need for a counter productive and inflammatory language. Eupator, the sources are not on the article page, while the quotes brought from CJF Dowsett are on this talk page above, and they have so far not been proven wrong nor incorporated in the article. CJF Dowsett is an expert on Armenian and Albanian history, while neither of references brought on the page are even close to being specific on history of Caucasian Albania as much Dowsett (translator of Moses of Kalankatuyk into English) was. Atabek ( talk) 01:19, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
… the great prince of the lands of Khachen and Artsakh, Hasan called Jalal, an God-fearing, pious man, of Armenian nationality.
Kirakos Gandzaketsi, “History of Armenia”, c. 44
…brave and distinguished men who had caused all the Arabian troops to quake with fear. These men were from Khachen of a prominent family, Christians, orthodox, and of Armenian nationality.
Kirakos Gandzaketsi, “History of Armenia”, c. 12
Dear User:Paolo Interdonato, I don't think that the reconstructed flag is adequately verified. There is practically no information online about the "American Research Association for Caucasian & Caspian Studies" that is said to have made the flag. Overall, I am very suspicious about these reconstructions of historical flags and their encyclopedic value. I won't delete it, but if you could help find some other information about it, I would appreciate it. Best, Revolution Saga ( talk) 20:43, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
I knew there will be problems:) with the surname of Soviet Armenian scolar Ter-Ghevondian, despite the neutral source marks the words of cezar Konstantin and cites 2 sources at the same time (one from Soviet Armenian scolar Ter-Ghevondian and the first one is a direct citation from the cezar Konstantin, which is surely neutral in this case). Anyways i didnt add this source to the description, and even have nothing against the mediation you asked for! I added this quote just for info as its dedicated to the topic of article! Andranikpasha 21:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Atabek, about Doswett I asked earlier, and related to Minorsky: I never deleted this: ""Caucasica IV", Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 15, No. 3. (1953), p. 504: "The territory of present-day Soviet republic of Azarbayjan roughly corresponds to the ancient Caucasian Albania"</ref>, which roughly corresponded to the territory of Soviet Azerbaijan", and more surely will never add it to the article, as I cant see any relation with the article's topic. Why you added this here? Andranikpasha 22:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Caucasian Albania was an ancient state and a geographic entity known for many centuries before. It's not "just a name of territory at that time". Why is it surprising for Albanian prince to ask Armenian monk to write a lawbook for Albanians (not Armenians)? After all Armenian monk made an alphabet for Georgians for example. And Eupator, please, "rbedrossian.com" is definitely not a neutral source appropriate for citation in this discussion. Thanks. Atabek 05:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
The removal of CJF Dowsett and Minorsky quotes in this article has still not been justified. Provided the substantial amount of one-sided POV pushing, I think it's necessary to have tags until all sides are willing and interested in neutrality of this article. Please discuss the references per mediation case opened above. Until valid reasons are provided for pushing one-sided POV against important and expert sources, the tags shall remain. Atabek 14:56, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Eupator, Dowsett and Minorsky sources are removed from this article. Please, insert the tag back. You cannot remove the POV tag when there is a dispute on the page. Your explanation above does not suffice. Atabek 23:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Vartan, thank you for providing your original source, which is not CJF Dowsett's authoritative article but his review of Armenian author's work on manuscripts. Caucasian Albania was distinct from Armenia, and wasn't a region of Eastern Armenia. Moreover, no such state as Armenia existed 9th century onwards when Khachen principality existed, so to claim that one historic-geographical region was part of another is a plain invention. The works of Dowsett, Minorsky, Smbatyan, Movses Kalankatuaci, etc. already established a strong evidence that Albanians were a group and country distinct from Armenians. As I said earlier, these are not a basis for pushing 2 Dowsett and 1 Minorsky references out of the page. Khachen was originally Albanian principality. Atabek 06:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster, Armenia didnt exist as an independent state in that period but an Armenian principality- Khachen (with Armenian population and Armenian rulers) save its independence. Do you know about Principality of Arzrunids or Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia (a state formed during the same centuries with an Armenian population and culture)? PS- Are you sure Armenians in the Khachen spoke Arranian language? First time Im hearing aboutn such a "version" (if to not mark V. Shnirelman's critics on Azerbaijani nationalism and "Albanian" myth). Andranikpasha 10:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Andranik, you have confusion in your paragraph above. Dowsett and Minorksy say that Khachen was in Albania or was ruled by Albanian princes. You're saying Armenia didn't exist, but Khachen was Armenian principality. And before mentioning little known Shnirelman again vs. research heavy-weights like Dowsett and Minorsky, please, mind WP:WEIGHT. Thanks. Atabek 18:11, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Eupator, how was the principality Armenian if it was in Albania and ruled by Albanian princes, and neither Albania or Armenia existed as states? Atabek 02:16, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Because the Albanian princes ruling it were Armenian. They just used the "Albanian" title as a matter of fashion. Just like Italian kings bore the title of "King of Armenia." Plus, the population was Armenian.-- TigranTheGreat 20:17, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
THanks. Atabek ( talk) 09:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC) We've been there, there is nothing remaining to debate about. Dowsett considers Khachen to be in Armenia. No addition quoted out of context will be made, Wikipedia shall not suffer because the region is now disputed. Also it is not up to you to determine what should and should not be in the article, you do not own it. -- TigranTheGreat ( talk) 10:09, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
It's not out of context, Khachen was an Albanian principality, which is reflected in Dowsett, Minorsky and even Moses Kalankatuaci. There is already an article Caucasian Albania, and no such thing as "Armenian Albania" every exists in any historical record or article reference. Atabek ( talk) 00:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
The issue does not seem to be one of sources, so much as interpretation of those sources. Some considerable time prior to the Hasan Jalalyan dynasty the area was part of what geographers at the time (50 AD) called Albania. During the more recent periods it was part of what geographers then called Armenia. As early as 387 AD in the Byzantium-Persia Treaty, Albania (old sense) was considered a subset of Armenia. By the 6th Century the name Albania was no longer used having been replaced by Arran. In the 8th Century Arran (to the east) was separated from Khachen (to the west), . Despite the "in-depth" research into scholarly tomes indulged in by the parties above, the article has not been expanded with regard to the origins of the Khachen state, nor with regard to its eventual demise. Would that activity not be more fruitful? -- Bejnar ( talk) 20:04, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
The page is full of POV and intended omission of two important expert references on the subject, CJF Dowsett and Vladimir Minorsky. Until the proper explanations and more balanced version are concluded, the POV tag shall remain on the page. There is more than sufficient historical references which claim this region as Albanian rather than Armenian principality. Atabek ( talk) 00:15, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Marshall, there is no need for a counter productive and inflammatory language. Eupator, the sources are not on the article page, while the quotes brought from CJF Dowsett are on this talk page above, and they have so far not been proven wrong nor incorporated in the article. CJF Dowsett is an expert on Armenian and Albanian history, while neither of references brought on the page are even close to being specific on history of Caucasian Albania as much Dowsett (translator of Moses of Kalankatuyk into English) was. Atabek ( talk) 01:19, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
… the great prince of the lands of Khachen and Artsakh, Hasan called Jalal, an God-fearing, pious man, of Armenian nationality.
Kirakos Gandzaketsi, “History of Armenia”, c. 44
…brave and distinguished men who had caused all the Arabian troops to quake with fear. These men were from Khachen of a prominent family, Christians, orthodox, and of Armenian nationality.
Kirakos Gandzaketsi, “History of Armenia”, c. 12
Dear User:Paolo Interdonato, I don't think that the reconstructed flag is adequately verified. There is practically no information online about the "American Research Association for Caucasian & Caspian Studies" that is said to have made the flag. Overall, I am very suspicious about these reconstructions of historical flags and their encyclopedic value. I won't delete it, but if you could help find some other information about it, I would appreciate it. Best, Revolution Saga ( talk) 20:43, 11 October 2023 (UTC)