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Catalonia had existed and never had been and principality
Catalonia was a Principality based on the ancient Roman law Princeps namque in which the Prince was the Count of Barcelona. For example when the Hispanic Monarchy overthrew the privileges (Parliament, constitution of Catalonia etc ...) in the document it says "Principality of Catalonia" or in the British document of 1714 "The deplorable history of the Catalans" when they left Catalonia in the war of succession mentions Principality of Catalonia. In the 1600 maps he mentions Principality of Catalonia. During the Franco dictatorship in Spain a false reality was created that Spain has existed for 20 centuries. it's false. until 1714 there is no such union and the central state of Spain is created, Spanish nation. beyond all that in the documents of Barbastre de Ramiro Rey de Aragón mentions the Count of Barcelona as Prince of the Kingdom of Aragon while the Count will respect Ramiro as king ttps://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=es&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u= https://ca.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap%25C3%25ADtols_matrimonials_de_Barbastre_(1137)&xid=17259,15700019,15700186,15700190,15700256,15700259,15700262,15700265,15700271&usg=ALkJrhiuU-WRdWFw6TKs6yzj9c3bFyrwzQ Sylas ( talk) 05:30, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=es&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://ca.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap%25C3%25ADtols_matrimonials_de_Barbastre_(1137)&xid=17259,15700019,15700186,15700190,15700256,15700259,15700262,15700265,15700271&usg=ALkJrhiuU-WRdWFw6TKs6yzj9c3bFyrwzQ Sylas ( talk) 05:32, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Good traduction - https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ca&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://ca.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap%25C3%25ADtols_matrimonials_de_Barbastre_(1137)&xid=17259,15700019,15700186,15700190,15700256,15700259,15700262,15700265,15700271&usg=ALkJrhj9bgRDkTgXuEsW2bMHEgUYUwg2ng Sylas ( talk) 05:34, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Catalan Nacionalism is not the only ideology which considers Catalonia as a Nation. If we have a view on the political parties of Catalonia, we will notice that only 2 of the majority parties (Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya and Convergència i Unió) are nacionalists and the other 3 parties (Partit dels Socialistes de Catalunya, Iniciativa per Catalunya Verds - Esquerra Unida i Alternativa and Partido Popular) are not nacionalists but they regard Catalonia as a nation with the exception of Partido Popular. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.37.151.198 ( talk • contribs) 25 July 2006.
The Parliament of Catalonia has defined Catalonia as a Nation and itself as the seat of its soveraignity. Only a minority of the political forces of Catalonia don't agree. It'd make more sense to say that the Spanish political parties of Catalonia don't recognize it as a nation.-- 192.115.144.17 ( talk) 12:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused here. We have no article County of Barcelona (that's just a redirect to List of Counts of Barcelona). This article barely mentions the title of Count of Barcelona. But that is the title I've always been familiar with for the medieval rulers of this region (and it is a title still retained by the Spanish Crown). I've never heard of a "Prince of Catalonia". This article is a bit undercited, so it's hard to follow up; at a quick read the linked Spanish language article (originally from La Vanguardia) seems a bit ambivalent about whether the designation is appropriate. - Jmabel | Talk 18:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
There are several types of principalities. We describe Catalonia as a Principality because it is a land whose sovereign hasn't got an specific title or he is a sovereign and governs using another title. The Principality of Catalonia was governed by the kings of Crown of Aragon whose kings had the title of Count of Barcelona. Nowadays, the King of Spain has this title. So, there is not any contradiction, althought this king has not any power over the Spanish's Politic,he is the head of state so he governs Catalonia but he doesn't do it with the title of Count of Barcelona, he does it using the title of king of Spain. (Sorry for my English, I hope you will understand) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 5 August 2006 ( talk • contribs) 83.44.115.42.
This has barely even semblance of being neutral. "Limited political" autonomy? According to whom? A map that illustrates the region as being separate from the rest of the Spanish state? Eboracum 05:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
"There seems to be an older reference, in a more informal context, in Ramon Muntaner's chronicles". I am the author of this sentence originally written in ca.wiki and then translated into several wikis. Any reference can be found in the chronicles of Muntaner and it was probably a misunderstood of mine from the source I used. I removed it in ca.wiki and I substituted it for more reliable quotations. What needs really a citation is to place the origin of the name in the union of the county of Barcelona with the kingdom of Aragon. Medieval Latin princeps does not means prince consort, but dominator. -- Vriullop 17:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
-- Maurice27 22:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Despite we seem to disagree in all I completely agree with the third,fifth sixth and seventh points. About the others I'm tired of discussing today with you so let's see what say the usual editors of this article. The only point where I clearly disagree is: is an historic territory situated in the north-east of Spain which corresponds to the present-day Autonomous Community of Catalonia., can you explain why you changed it? -- GillesV 22:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to bed. GNight. Cheers, -- Maurice27 22:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Have added an 's' to Middle Age (Middle Ages), as middle age is the period of life beyond young adulthood but before the onset of old age, and the historical period is always plural. --YuriBCN 13:12, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
So in light of all that is said in the article... is there anybody today that bares the title Prince of Catalonia? maybe the King or the Prince of Asturias..? -- Oren neu dag ( talk) 14:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
In the introduction, the article refers to the Principality of Catalonia as a historic territory. I could not find a definition for 'historic territory'. Politis ( talk) 00:16, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi there, since you provided verifiability I'm not going to dwell on this now. An idea of Spain, a rough Hispania, existed as a geographic and historic reality heir to "ancient glories" like the Roman Hispania and the Visigothic Kingdom. However, that would include Portugal too, sorry there is not any predestined union of the kingdoms of Aragon-Castile and a conquered Navarre as Spain, it just happened like that for contemporary circumstances. Charles V and his Habsburg successors in Spain were Kings of the Spains, not Spain, acknowledging the different realms and identities. Iñaki LL ( talk) 09:08, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
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The whole entry is biased and it purpose is to establish historical fact in a way that serves today's policies. The part where it explains why a principality is not worthy of an encyclopedia, although the effort put to make it look good is commendable. Someone should look into this.-- 193.239.221.248 ( talk) 12:23, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
This is a recurrent problem: Catalan nationalists decided in the 19th century that the four bars would become the symbol of their nation, probably taking as excuse the legend of Guifré el Pilós, that has been proven unrelated to historical facts. Therefore that coat of arms can't be the symbol of Catalonia before roughly 1800. However many people don't know this and in the case of foreigners they sometimes even get to believe that Aragon and Catalonia are kind of the same thing. I'll copy here a passage from ca:Bandera de Catalunya (a page I have never edited):
Desclot i Muntaner (finals del s. XIII i principis del s. XIV) s'hi referien com a «senyal dels reis d'Aragó». Amb l'arribada de la Renaixença al s. XIX, el moviment catalanista la prengué com a bandera nacional de Catalunya.
-- Jotamar ( talk) 18:40, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
I use this source because the Catalan WP is hardly a suspect of anti-Catalan editing. -- Jotamar ( talk) 18:49, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
This question has come up in the past, and I know it will come up again in the future. The symbol of the King of Aragon, the four bars, was adopted by Catalan nationalists in the 19th century as symbol of their nation, probably after the legend of Guifré el Pilós. However, there is no proof of a Catalan origin for the symbol, or at least not for all historians. But this is not the point here, the point is whether there is any proof of the symbol being adopted after the title of king of Aragon was subsumed into the kingdom of Spain, in the 16th century, by the Catalan Courts or perhaps by the short-lived Catalan Republic. I've never heard of such proof, nor have I read it in this page. The fact that in 1528 a number of Catalans thought that the four bars were originally theirs is no more relevant than the fact that many Catalans of today, including probably most politicians, think the same. -- Jotamar ( talk) 23:05, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
Third opinion requested. -- Jotamar ( talk) 13:58, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
3O Response: To both Jotamar and Jacobí, you have only discussed here what your own opinions are regarding the icon. The opinion of editors is irrelevant to Wikipedia articles. Both of you would need to find reliable and independent sources which support your position. If there is a clear consensus among reliable sources about the matter, that should be reflected in the article even if you personally disagree. If reliable sources are themselves in substantial dispute over the matter, the article should note and describe the dispute without taking a side. If reliable sources discuss the matter little or not at all, the article shouldn't discuss it either. Go find sources and go from what they think, not from what you think. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:15, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
all the agenda-driven editors always go straight to them" ( Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes). Spot on. Editors should strive to remove issues from the infobox and deal with them the body of the article with the required nuances. If the result is the infobox turning into something inane, then the infobox should be removed altogether. In any case, most articles, in general, could do just fine without infoboxes.--Asqueladd ( talk) 14:02, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Is anyone watching these dramatic changes being made without any explanation by 139.47.125.231 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)? Are they legitimate? —DIYeditor ( talk) 14:40, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 1 June 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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Catalonia had existed and never had been and principality
Catalonia was a Principality based on the ancient Roman law Princeps namque in which the Prince was the Count of Barcelona. For example when the Hispanic Monarchy overthrew the privileges (Parliament, constitution of Catalonia etc ...) in the document it says "Principality of Catalonia" or in the British document of 1714 "The deplorable history of the Catalans" when they left Catalonia in the war of succession mentions Principality of Catalonia. In the 1600 maps he mentions Principality of Catalonia. During the Franco dictatorship in Spain a false reality was created that Spain has existed for 20 centuries. it's false. until 1714 there is no such union and the central state of Spain is created, Spanish nation. beyond all that in the documents of Barbastre de Ramiro Rey de Aragón mentions the Count of Barcelona as Prince of the Kingdom of Aragon while the Count will respect Ramiro as king ttps://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=es&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u= https://ca.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap%25C3%25ADtols_matrimonials_de_Barbastre_(1137)&xid=17259,15700019,15700186,15700190,15700256,15700259,15700262,15700265,15700271&usg=ALkJrhiuU-WRdWFw6TKs6yzj9c3bFyrwzQ Sylas ( talk) 05:30, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=es&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://ca.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap%25C3%25ADtols_matrimonials_de_Barbastre_(1137)&xid=17259,15700019,15700186,15700190,15700256,15700259,15700262,15700265,15700271&usg=ALkJrhiuU-WRdWFw6TKs6yzj9c3bFyrwzQ Sylas ( talk) 05:32, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Good traduction - https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ca&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://ca.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cap%25C3%25ADtols_matrimonials_de_Barbastre_(1137)&xid=17259,15700019,15700186,15700190,15700256,15700259,15700262,15700265,15700271&usg=ALkJrhj9bgRDkTgXuEsW2bMHEgUYUwg2ng Sylas ( talk) 05:34, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
Catalan Nacionalism is not the only ideology which considers Catalonia as a Nation. If we have a view on the political parties of Catalonia, we will notice that only 2 of the majority parties (Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya and Convergència i Unió) are nacionalists and the other 3 parties (Partit dels Socialistes de Catalunya, Iniciativa per Catalunya Verds - Esquerra Unida i Alternativa and Partido Popular) are not nacionalists but they regard Catalonia as a nation with the exception of Partido Popular. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.37.151.198 ( talk • contribs) 25 July 2006.
The Parliament of Catalonia has defined Catalonia as a Nation and itself as the seat of its soveraignity. Only a minority of the political forces of Catalonia don't agree. It'd make more sense to say that the Spanish political parties of Catalonia don't recognize it as a nation.-- 192.115.144.17 ( talk) 12:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused here. We have no article County of Barcelona (that's just a redirect to List of Counts of Barcelona). This article barely mentions the title of Count of Barcelona. But that is the title I've always been familiar with for the medieval rulers of this region (and it is a title still retained by the Spanish Crown). I've never heard of a "Prince of Catalonia". This article is a bit undercited, so it's hard to follow up; at a quick read the linked Spanish language article (originally from La Vanguardia) seems a bit ambivalent about whether the designation is appropriate. - Jmabel | Talk 18:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
There are several types of principalities. We describe Catalonia as a Principality because it is a land whose sovereign hasn't got an specific title or he is a sovereign and governs using another title. The Principality of Catalonia was governed by the kings of Crown of Aragon whose kings had the title of Count of Barcelona. Nowadays, the King of Spain has this title. So, there is not any contradiction, althought this king has not any power over the Spanish's Politic,he is the head of state so he governs Catalonia but he doesn't do it with the title of Count of Barcelona, he does it using the title of king of Spain. (Sorry for my English, I hope you will understand) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 5 August 2006 ( talk • contribs) 83.44.115.42.
This has barely even semblance of being neutral. "Limited political" autonomy? According to whom? A map that illustrates the region as being separate from the rest of the Spanish state? Eboracum 05:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
"There seems to be an older reference, in a more informal context, in Ramon Muntaner's chronicles". I am the author of this sentence originally written in ca.wiki and then translated into several wikis. Any reference can be found in the chronicles of Muntaner and it was probably a misunderstood of mine from the source I used. I removed it in ca.wiki and I substituted it for more reliable quotations. What needs really a citation is to place the origin of the name in the union of the county of Barcelona with the kingdom of Aragon. Medieval Latin princeps does not means prince consort, but dominator. -- Vriullop 17:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
-- Maurice27 22:29, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Despite we seem to disagree in all I completely agree with the third,fifth sixth and seventh points. About the others I'm tired of discussing today with you so let's see what say the usual editors of this article. The only point where I clearly disagree is: is an historic territory situated in the north-east of Spain which corresponds to the present-day Autonomous Community of Catalonia., can you explain why you changed it? -- GillesV 22:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to bed. GNight. Cheers, -- Maurice27 22:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Have added an 's' to Middle Age (Middle Ages), as middle age is the period of life beyond young adulthood but before the onset of old age, and the historical period is always plural. --YuriBCN 13:12, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
So in light of all that is said in the article... is there anybody today that bares the title Prince of Catalonia? maybe the King or the Prince of Asturias..? -- Oren neu dag ( talk) 14:46, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
In the introduction, the article refers to the Principality of Catalonia as a historic territory. I could not find a definition for 'historic territory'. Politis ( talk) 00:16, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Hi there, since you provided verifiability I'm not going to dwell on this now. An idea of Spain, a rough Hispania, existed as a geographic and historic reality heir to "ancient glories" like the Roman Hispania and the Visigothic Kingdom. However, that would include Portugal too, sorry there is not any predestined union of the kingdoms of Aragon-Castile and a conquered Navarre as Spain, it just happened like that for contemporary circumstances. Charles V and his Habsburg successors in Spain were Kings of the Spains, not Spain, acknowledging the different realms and identities. Iñaki LL ( talk) 09:08, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
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I have just modified one external link on Principality of Catalonia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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The whole entry is biased and it purpose is to establish historical fact in a way that serves today's policies. The part where it explains why a principality is not worthy of an encyclopedia, although the effort put to make it look good is commendable. Someone should look into this.-- 193.239.221.248 ( talk) 12:23, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
This is a recurrent problem: Catalan nationalists decided in the 19th century that the four bars would become the symbol of their nation, probably taking as excuse the legend of Guifré el Pilós, that has been proven unrelated to historical facts. Therefore that coat of arms can't be the symbol of Catalonia before roughly 1800. However many people don't know this and in the case of foreigners they sometimes even get to believe that Aragon and Catalonia are kind of the same thing. I'll copy here a passage from ca:Bandera de Catalunya (a page I have never edited):
Desclot i Muntaner (finals del s. XIII i principis del s. XIV) s'hi referien com a «senyal dels reis d'Aragó». Amb l'arribada de la Renaixença al s. XIX, el moviment catalanista la prengué com a bandera nacional de Catalunya.
-- Jotamar ( talk) 18:40, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
I use this source because the Catalan WP is hardly a suspect of anti-Catalan editing. -- Jotamar ( talk) 18:49, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
This question has come up in the past, and I know it will come up again in the future. The symbol of the King of Aragon, the four bars, was adopted by Catalan nationalists in the 19th century as symbol of their nation, probably after the legend of Guifré el Pilós. However, there is no proof of a Catalan origin for the symbol, or at least not for all historians. But this is not the point here, the point is whether there is any proof of the symbol being adopted after the title of king of Aragon was subsumed into the kingdom of Spain, in the 16th century, by the Catalan Courts or perhaps by the short-lived Catalan Republic. I've never heard of such proof, nor have I read it in this page. The fact that in 1528 a number of Catalans thought that the four bars were originally theirs is no more relevant than the fact that many Catalans of today, including probably most politicians, think the same. -- Jotamar ( talk) 23:05, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
Third opinion requested. -- Jotamar ( talk) 13:58, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
3O Response: To both Jotamar and Jacobí, you have only discussed here what your own opinions are regarding the icon. The opinion of editors is irrelevant to Wikipedia articles. Both of you would need to find reliable and independent sources which support your position. If there is a clear consensus among reliable sources about the matter, that should be reflected in the article even if you personally disagree. If reliable sources are themselves in substantial dispute over the matter, the article should note and describe the dispute without taking a side. If reliable sources discuss the matter little or not at all, the article shouldn't discuss it either. Go find sources and go from what they think, not from what you think. Seraphimblade Talk to me 23:15, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
all the agenda-driven editors always go straight to them" ( Wikipedia:Disinfoboxes). Spot on. Editors should strive to remove issues from the infobox and deal with them the body of the article with the required nuances. If the result is the infobox turning into something inane, then the infobox should be removed altogether. In any case, most articles, in general, could do just fine without infoboxes.--Asqueladd ( talk) 14:02, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Is anyone watching these dramatic changes being made without any explanation by 139.47.125.231 ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)? Are they legitimate? —DIYeditor ( talk) 14:40, 1 June 2023 (UTC)