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Avs5221 (
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Notability
Is this 10 year old girl notable? She isn't the daughter of a king, she isn't an heiress, and I don't think she's warranted any coverage aside from, perhaps, her birth notice and baptism. Also, the title is wrong.
Seven Letters17:26, 25 January 2014 (UTC)reply
Well, there are other articles on royal children who aren't very notable, take
Prince Boris of Bulgaria and
Prince Umberto of Savoy-Aosta as examples. I know the title is incorrect, when I was creating the article I had the correct title, but when it was submitted, this was the title we got. Actually, her father the head of the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies so technically, she is an heiress. There have also been other photos and reports about her online (a quick Google search on her will give you results). ::
PrincessAlice13 (
talk)
15:55, 26 January 2014 (UTC)reply
ADDED: There was an error in my comment above: yes, she isn't an heiress, as female primogeniture hasn't been/wasn't adopted in the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies. But I don't think the fact that she isn't an heiress matters, there are lots of articles on royals and aristocrats who aren't heirs or heiress... (Sorry if my last comments sounded negative, but your comment made me a little annoyed as [even though it's a short one] a lot of research had gone into this article.)
PrincessAlice13 (
talk)
22:47, 27 January 2014 (UTC)reply
A lot of research or not, notability has to be established. One, for instance, could put a lot of research into my life but I do not think I am a particularly notable person. The fact that other articles do not exist does not mean we have to maintain similar non-notable articles. If I knew which ones those all were I would question that too.
Seven Letters21:25, 28 January 2014 (UTC)reply
I have come across a few articles about figures that could be considered unnotable, so why is this article in particular being raised? It could be argued that Princess Maria Carolina's father is unnotable, yet he has an article, and so do lots of other members of the non-reigning houses.
PrincessAlice13 (
talk)
22:32, 28 January 2014 (UTC)reply
...because I have just happened upon it. I am not picking it out in particular, I have also made note of others. Her father is a dynastic claimant.
Seven Letters03:35, 29 January 2014 (UTC)reply
This page reads like a minor social column. It seems long overdue to be converted into a redirect to her father, who probably does have sufficient notability to justify an article.
Hunc (
talk)
06:52, 18 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Well, I have to say I am quite dissapointed by these remarks. Other royal children who are of the same notibility as Princess Maria Carolina have their own pages. I would be less bothered if the page was just merged rather than having to read critique on something I spent time creating and was proud of. I won't be reading this talk page anymore. --
PrincessAlice13 (
talk)
13:54, 29 August 2017 (UTC)reply
I'm looking into merging the article. I put up a speedy deletion request too, but it seems to have disappeared, so I'll make another one.
PrincessAlice13 (
talk)
Her Royal Highness is now 19 years of age and this article should stand. I have restored this article twice already. When she was ten (when this article was first created) sure she was not that notable back then. Since then, things have changed. She has come of age and become an adult and she is an heir apparent in a royal house. She has also taken on royal duties and tasks associated with her position as a duchess. She has also become notable thanks to her social media presence. Since restoring this article I have added to it in order to better reflect what she has been doing. I tend to follow and be knowledgable about Italian royalty myself given my own Italian cultural background and I am very happy to contribute. I ask that this page be allowed to stand because I have added to it and I intend to add more to it. --
IndustryPlantCooper (
talk)
19:11, 16 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Hard to gain consensus when the opportunity to even have a discussion is denied. I made my case above and I think the discussion should be reopened. There are pages for her on other wikis in different languages. Why is it not notable on English Wikipedia but notable on the French and even Scottish one? --
IndustryPlantCooper (
talk)
22:19, 16 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Changing the page back gets rid of the talk page and I can’t access it. Then how did you post your last message? You could start a
WP:RfC for people to give their views, and link to this page. --
John B123 (
talk)
06:12, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I posted the last message because I reverted the page. I can see that somehow this page is still here after struggling to find it. I would be very happy to re-open the discussion on this topic. --
IndustryPlantCooper (
talk)
14:35, 22 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Proposal to re-establish this page
My position is that this page should be re-estabished. For one, HRH has come of age since the page was first created and later merged. Secondly, she is fulfilling various royal duties. I pointed all this out when I attempted to re-establish the page. I added new content and it was all sourced. In addition, HRH is an heir apparent to a throne. Yes, the throne is defunct. Yes, the headship is disputed, but pages like this exist for other heirs apparent and I think it should be the same deal in this case. --
IndustryPlantCooper (
talk)
14:38, 22 September 2022 (UTC)reply
IndustryPlantCooper, All you need to do is establish
notability. If you can do that, the page can be re-created, if not, it cannot. It is very straightforward, and the onus to prove notability is on the person who wants the article to be created. Everyone is non-notable until proven notable. This is not a matter for debate until evidence of notability is provided Then the debate is on whether the evidence is sufficient. If you do not understand how notability works on Wikipedia, look it up, it is essential knowledge if you want to create articles, and it is your responsibility to learn it, though you are free to ask for help at the appropriate venues, such as the
WP:Teahouse There is no value in arguing the point if you do not even know what the point is, and it is a waste of everyone's time. Cheers, · · ·
Peter Southwood(talk):
16:31, 22 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I suggest that you list your independent reliable sources, and annotate each one with the reasons why it establishes notability, in terms of the relevant guidance or policy for establishing notability. Cheers,· · ·
Peter Southwood(talk):
17:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Agreed with the above. We need to see what
reliable and
independent reference material is available in sufficient quantity and depth to establish notability. If such reference material is not available, this should remain a redirect; if you believe it is, it needs to be shown what material it is proposed meets the notability standard.
SeraphimbladeTalk to me01:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Also as a side note,
IndustryPlantCooper, the RfC heading/question itself needs to be a neutral statement of what comment is being requested on, such as "Should this page be converted from a redirect into an article?". If you believe the answer is "yes", leave that as your comment on the RfC, but not as the RfC header. Currently, the RfC statement itself is a statement of your own position, which is not appropriate.
SeraphimbladeTalk to me01:04, 23 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I'll see what I can dig up in regard to other sources, like it has been suggested. Is it okay if I take sources which are in other languages, such as French or Italian? --
IndustryPlantCooper (
talk)
16:53, 23 September 2022 (UTC)reply
This redirect was reviewed by member(s) of WikiProject Articles for creation. The project works to allow users to contribute quality articles and media files to the encyclopedia and track their progress as they are developed. To participate, please visit the
project page for more information.Articles for creationWikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creationTemplate:WikiProject Articles for creationAfC articles
This redirect was accepted on 27 December 2012 by reviewer
Avs5221 (
talk·contribs).
This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This redirect is within the scope of WikiProject Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
women on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WomenWikipedia:WikiProject WomenTemplate:WikiProject WomenWikiProject Women articles
Notability
Is this 10 year old girl notable? She isn't the daughter of a king, she isn't an heiress, and I don't think she's warranted any coverage aside from, perhaps, her birth notice and baptism. Also, the title is wrong.
Seven Letters17:26, 25 January 2014 (UTC)reply
Well, there are other articles on royal children who aren't very notable, take
Prince Boris of Bulgaria and
Prince Umberto of Savoy-Aosta as examples. I know the title is incorrect, when I was creating the article I had the correct title, but when it was submitted, this was the title we got. Actually, her father the head of the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies so technically, she is an heiress. There have also been other photos and reports about her online (a quick Google search on her will give you results). ::
PrincessAlice13 (
talk)
15:55, 26 January 2014 (UTC)reply
ADDED: There was an error in my comment above: yes, she isn't an heiress, as female primogeniture hasn't been/wasn't adopted in the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies. But I don't think the fact that she isn't an heiress matters, there are lots of articles on royals and aristocrats who aren't heirs or heiress... (Sorry if my last comments sounded negative, but your comment made me a little annoyed as [even though it's a short one] a lot of research had gone into this article.)
PrincessAlice13 (
talk)
22:47, 27 January 2014 (UTC)reply
A lot of research or not, notability has to be established. One, for instance, could put a lot of research into my life but I do not think I am a particularly notable person. The fact that other articles do not exist does not mean we have to maintain similar non-notable articles. If I knew which ones those all were I would question that too.
Seven Letters21:25, 28 January 2014 (UTC)reply
I have come across a few articles about figures that could be considered unnotable, so why is this article in particular being raised? It could be argued that Princess Maria Carolina's father is unnotable, yet he has an article, and so do lots of other members of the non-reigning houses.
PrincessAlice13 (
talk)
22:32, 28 January 2014 (UTC)reply
...because I have just happened upon it. I am not picking it out in particular, I have also made note of others. Her father is a dynastic claimant.
Seven Letters03:35, 29 January 2014 (UTC)reply
This page reads like a minor social column. It seems long overdue to be converted into a redirect to her father, who probably does have sufficient notability to justify an article.
Hunc (
talk)
06:52, 18 July 2017 (UTC)reply
Well, I have to say I am quite dissapointed by these remarks. Other royal children who are of the same notibility as Princess Maria Carolina have their own pages. I would be less bothered if the page was just merged rather than having to read critique on something I spent time creating and was proud of. I won't be reading this talk page anymore. --
PrincessAlice13 (
talk)
13:54, 29 August 2017 (UTC)reply
I'm looking into merging the article. I put up a speedy deletion request too, but it seems to have disappeared, so I'll make another one.
PrincessAlice13 (
talk)
Her Royal Highness is now 19 years of age and this article should stand. I have restored this article twice already. When she was ten (when this article was first created) sure she was not that notable back then. Since then, things have changed. She has come of age and become an adult and she is an heir apparent in a royal house. She has also taken on royal duties and tasks associated with her position as a duchess. She has also become notable thanks to her social media presence. Since restoring this article I have added to it in order to better reflect what she has been doing. I tend to follow and be knowledgable about Italian royalty myself given my own Italian cultural background and I am very happy to contribute. I ask that this page be allowed to stand because I have added to it and I intend to add more to it. --
IndustryPlantCooper (
talk)
19:11, 16 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Hard to gain consensus when the opportunity to even have a discussion is denied. I made my case above and I think the discussion should be reopened. There are pages for her on other wikis in different languages. Why is it not notable on English Wikipedia but notable on the French and even Scottish one? --
IndustryPlantCooper (
talk)
22:19, 16 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Changing the page back gets rid of the talk page and I can’t access it. Then how did you post your last message? You could start a
WP:RfC for people to give their views, and link to this page. --
John B123 (
talk)
06:12, 17 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I posted the last message because I reverted the page. I can see that somehow this page is still here after struggling to find it. I would be very happy to re-open the discussion on this topic. --
IndustryPlantCooper (
talk)
14:35, 22 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Proposal to re-establish this page
My position is that this page should be re-estabished. For one, HRH has come of age since the page was first created and later merged. Secondly, she is fulfilling various royal duties. I pointed all this out when I attempted to re-establish the page. I added new content and it was all sourced. In addition, HRH is an heir apparent to a throne. Yes, the throne is defunct. Yes, the headship is disputed, but pages like this exist for other heirs apparent and I think it should be the same deal in this case. --
IndustryPlantCooper (
talk)
14:38, 22 September 2022 (UTC)reply
IndustryPlantCooper, All you need to do is establish
notability. If you can do that, the page can be re-created, if not, it cannot. It is very straightforward, and the onus to prove notability is on the person who wants the article to be created. Everyone is non-notable until proven notable. This is not a matter for debate until evidence of notability is provided Then the debate is on whether the evidence is sufficient. If you do not understand how notability works on Wikipedia, look it up, it is essential knowledge if you want to create articles, and it is your responsibility to learn it, though you are free to ask for help at the appropriate venues, such as the
WP:Teahouse There is no value in arguing the point if you do not even know what the point is, and it is a waste of everyone's time. Cheers, · · ·
Peter Southwood(talk):
16:31, 22 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I suggest that you list your independent reliable sources, and annotate each one with the reasons why it establishes notability, in terms of the relevant guidance or policy for establishing notability. Cheers,· · ·
Peter Southwood(talk):
17:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Agreed with the above. We need to see what
reliable and
independent reference material is available in sufficient quantity and depth to establish notability. If such reference material is not available, this should remain a redirect; if you believe it is, it needs to be shown what material it is proposed meets the notability standard.
SeraphimbladeTalk to me01:02, 23 September 2022 (UTC)reply
Also as a side note,
IndustryPlantCooper, the RfC heading/question itself needs to be a neutral statement of what comment is being requested on, such as "Should this page be converted from a redirect into an article?". If you believe the answer is "yes", leave that as your comment on the RfC, but not as the RfC header. Currently, the RfC statement itself is a statement of your own position, which is not appropriate.
SeraphimbladeTalk to me01:04, 23 September 2022 (UTC)reply
I'll see what I can dig up in regard to other sources, like it has been suggested. Is it okay if I take sources which are in other languages, such as French or Italian? --
IndustryPlantCooper (
talk)
16:53, 23 September 2022 (UTC)reply