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I think, in case of the dinasty, Brunswick-Lüneburg is correct. Google hits: "Brunswick-Lunenburg": 290 (including many "... Brunswick, Lunenburg, ...") // "Brunswick-Lüneburg": 796
It depends if you want it in English, in German, or in a bastard mix of both. Apparently at Wikipedia we're going with the bastard version. -- Someone else 23:01, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
As does Google:
"duchess of brunswick and lüneburg" - 39 "duchess of brunswick and luneburg" - 4 "duchess of brunswick and lunenburg" - 1 "duchess of braunschweig and lüneburg" - 2
-- Wik 23:04, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)
If it seems to be correct, we should change the bastards, 82.82.117.83 23:03, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC) (again)
"bastards"....an appropriate term given the family we're discussing. Britain's King Georg V revoked all titles held by the German branches of his family. To this end and given the fact that Ireland became a republic in 1948, this lady has no right to style herself....."Princess of Ireland"....
I'm not going to fight over spelling, you and Wik work it out. The next person along will change it to the one they prefer, and so on and so on... It's a matter of style, not correctness, and we have no style guide for this. --
Someone else 23:08, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)~
As Heiress Apparent of Monaco, which she now is, does the Princess of Hanover automatically take the style of Hereditary Princess of Monaco as well as become Marquise des Baux?
She is no longer heiress apparent, as Prince Albert has legitimate issue. This is all a load of bollocks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.67.238.90 ( talk) 23:40, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
If Wiki's entry on Apparent versus Presumptive is correct, the Princess of Hanover is Heiress Apparent, not Presumptive, to the throne of Monaco. Her brother, Albert II, could certainly father an heir to the throne if he had the inclination.
The Princess of Hanover is now officially Heiress Presumptive and can only become Heiress if and when her brother dies childless
Note: an heir apparent is the person who will DEFINITELY inherit, since no child with a better claim could possibly be born. Prince Charles is therefore the heir apparent in the U.K. An heir presumptive is the person who will inherit IF AND ONLY IF a child with a better claim is NOT born. Queen Elizabeth was the heir presumptive in the U.K. up until the day she succeeded, because it was always theoretically possible that her father, King George VI, might produce a son, who would have bumped Elizabeth down in the line of succession. Caroline of Monaco is therefore the heiress presumptive, since any child born to her brother would precede her in the Monegasque line of succession. 68.72.94.110 ( talk) 01:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Is the style Marquise des Baux automatic or would it have to be officially conferred on her ? Also, does anyone know of the current incumbent of the Duchy de Valentinois ?
If I am not mistaken, the title of Marquis/Marquise des Baux is automatically and traditionally conferred on the heir/heiress to the throne of Monaco, though there may be some paperwork involved. But generally speaking, the heir to the throne seems to have automatically taken the Baux title. As for Valentinois, it was one of Prince Rainier's titles as Sovereign Prince of Monaco and not used by Prince Albert at all, so presumably it now is one of Albert II's titles until conferred otherwise. Louis II granted the Valentinois titles to his daughter and son-in-law upon their marriage, so presumably, based on that gift, the duchy of Valentinois belongs to the Sovereign Prince. Mowens35 10:55, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How can this be? The living have no heirs.
The second official definition of "heir" is "A person who succeeds or is in line to succeed to a hereditary rank, title, or office." Note that bit "is in line to succeed" ... Mowens35 15:49, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Since Caroline is a Catholic, she is not an heir to the British throne, even distantly. Indeed, under the 18th-century Acts of Settlement, her husband lost HIS place in the line of succession owing to his marriage to Caroline. (Though it's possible that his first wife was also Catholic, in which case Ernst was bounced out of the line of succession to the British throne well before he married Caroline.) I'm amazed that the article suggests that he is still an heir to the British monarchy. He is not. 68.72.94.110 ( talk) 01:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
How can she have a different "official name" elsewhere? In fact, her official name is "Caroline Prinzessin von Hannover" which translates from German as "Caroline, Princess of Hanover".
I agree that her name should be as she herself uses it, officially and under most circumstances. I think when utilizing titles, whether active or defunct, Wiki contributors should rely on standard publications re nobiliary enrollment, such as Burke's Peerage, Debrett's, and the Almanach de Gotha. Though many titles in the Almanach, for instance, are defunct and no longer legally recognized by various countries of origin, the titles are commonly used and often the only ones by which the titleholders are known. If we go the opposite direction, ie restricting ourselves only to active and legally recognized titles, then we will be forced to refer to entry subjects such as Caroline of Hanover as Caroline Wettin or Mrs Ernst August Wettin, which would serve no one seeking information about her/them any good. Mowens35 13:30, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the recent changes, Irish Republicans are indeed grateful.
not strictly true. Her ancestor Louise Hippolyte reigned briefly in 1731
thanks for pointing this out; I have made the change in the text. Mowens35 13:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
65 guests does not suggest "lavish"....is Hello really a reliable source ?
This is outdated information. Albert has publicly admitted to fathering two children out of wedlock - a daughter in California and a son in Africa - both of whom receive child support payments from him but neither of whom is eligible to ascend the Monegasque throne.
By what title is Chantal Hoculi, first wife of Ernt August of Hanover now known ? - Chantal, Princess of Hanover ?
She can accurately be referred to as either, though she is typically and usually known as Princess Chantal of Hanover. As a divorced wife, she would be referred to, strictly correctly, as HRH Chantal, Princess of Hanover. This is the form a divorcée usually takes, ie Diana, Princess of Wales. Mowens35 20:29, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And please note that whomever added "Mrs. Caroline Casiraghi" to the Princess's titles did so in error; please do not do it again. In addition to her Monegasque title, she was Mrs. Stefano Casiraghi from the moment she married him until until she remarried after his death; she was Casiraghi's widow. As long as she did not remarry, she remained Mrs. Stefano Casiraghi, per traditional marital convention, whatever one's status, royal or commoner; so in 1999, she ceased to be Mrs. Stefano Casiraghi and became Princess of Hanover. Typically, according to tradition, however outmoded in today's world, to call someone "Mrs. Caroline Casiraghi" is to imply that she is/was divorced, which is not the case. Mowens35 20:29, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Also please see paragraph 9 for the official style that Princess Caroline adopted upon her marriage to her present husband. Following this, the introductory title of the Wiki entry, ie the title first cited in the text, should be accurately "Her Royal Highness The Princess of Hanover and Hereditary Princess of Monaco." If anybody has further questions about this, I would be happy to call the Embassy of Monaco or the editors of the Almanach de Gotha for confirmation. Mowens35 21:05, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Her Royal Highness The Princess of Hanover and Hereditary Princess of Monaco" imlpies that she is also HRH Hereditary Princess of Monaco which is not the case.
That is wrong - her only TITLE is as a princess of Monaco. She does not hold any title "Princess of Hanover" or HRH, that is just what she STYLES herself, she is a princess but only a Monagesque princess, there are no Hanoverian princes(ses) anymore. Her legal name is Caroline, Princess of Hanover which acts in just the same way as Mr. John Smith. This should be mentioned - what she is de facto, all this Royal Highness rubbish is superfluous because she ISN'T a royal highness.
No republic can take away the title of Prince of Princess. There will always be Hanoverian Princes(ses)!
Princess Caroline should be titled Her Royal Highness as she was born in the current ruling house of Monaco. She, therefore, is royalty and her birth right is that title. And, as she is married to a Prince of Hanover, she is a Princess of Hanover. Republics can take titles away but that does not mean much. A ruling house of any country and its members are royalty, and they are in the right to be styled any titles they choose, whether another monarchy or anyone else feels that house counts as Royalty or not. RosePlantagenet 20:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
not to imply that she was divorced but widowed. It is my understanding that she would have been styled Mrs. Caroline Casiraghi from October 3, 1990 until January 23,1999.
(If Diana had been widowed, she would still have been known as Diana, Princess of Wales but would have kept her HRH style.)
A dowager is a widow who holds a title or property derived from her deceased husband.The Princess of Wales is a courtesy title given to the wife of a Prince of Wales. If Diana had been widowed she would have been known as The Dowager Princess of Wales.
I wish people would stop referring to the Grimaldis as "Royal" - they are not. With the exception of Princesse Caroline, HRH by marriage, the are a princely house whose members bear the style "Serene Highness". Offical correspondence always refers to them as Famille Princier - not Famille Royale.
Uh ! when you go to the official web site Official web site, what do you see: Royal Family ! 194.183.196.141 08:46, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
but the French version of this site refers to "Famille Princier" - I imagine it is poor translation which resluts in "Royal Family"
No, it means THEY translated it BADLY. 24.14.120.92 04:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
The Grimaldis have been ruling for 700 years and are the ruling house of Monaco, they are royalty. Most places in the world view them as royals. If you are descended from a ruling house of any country now or sometime in the past, whether that house still exists as the ruling house or not, through one parent or both, you are royalty. RosePlantagenet
"(Caroline Louise Marguerite Wettin, formerly Grimaldi)"
AFAIK her official name is "Caroline Prinzessin von Hannover" (in English "Caroline Princess of Hanover"). The Hanover family does not use the Wettin name, it is only dynastical but has no official status in Germany as surname.
The Wettin name is wrong as it is the name of the former royals of Saxony. Not Hannover. They have the name Welf. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 20:02, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Just for the record, 130.88.188.205 insists that Caroline is legally titled Caroline, Princess of Hanover, but *not* styled HRH. Let it be known that Caroline's use of the title of Princess of Hanover comes along with the style of HRH, unless the head of the house (her husband), comes up with something to the contrary. Caroline is styled as HRH The Princess of Hanover in Monaco (the last I heard, before she became Hereditary Princess). Elsewhere, she is styled HRH by courtesy, whether using a Hanoverian or Monegasque title. Caroline no longer uses HSH and the article should reflect that. This is simply my stance on the needless and incorrect edits to the contrary.
I simply ask that those opposed to the style present their argument here. Charles 06:53, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Monaco allows her to be styled HRH, but then, so could anyone since it is a courtesy style. You're right the style is what she is called (HRH The Princess of Hanover) but there IS NO TITLE of Princess of Hanover - if there was, that would mean the Princely House of Hanover legally exists, but it doesn't (there is a family with that surname but they do not hold Royal status. Monaco claims the ducal and marquesal titles to be their own, which is why they use them (as the monarchs of England did with the claim of being King/Queen of France, it was only a nominal claim and they were not de facto kings of France). Princess of Hanover is not a Royal title, it is a surname - if you're arguing that it IS a royal title it is like saying anybody could change their surname to Prince/ess of X and said to BE a prince/ss when in fact they are not. She is accorded the style Princess of Hanover in Monaco by courtesy just like anywhere else - as far as I am aware Monaco has not enacted legislation to make her the Princess of Hanover and they would not have any right to do so, and if they did it would only be a nominal claim. How can the sovereign of Monaco have legal authority over a title of a territory he neither makes a nominal claim to nor enacts any legislation for? User:130.88.188.14
The same is true of Diana, Princess of Wales. Whilst the title may LOOK as though she was The Princess of Wales, she was in fact, not, since that title goes only to the wife of the Prince of Wales, which she was no longer. Her "Princess of Wales" was a just a name - she was no longer in the order of precedence, entitled to use the Royal Standard etc because she was no longer a princess. She could have styled herself as The Princess of Wales, but if she had that is not what she was. The same is true of Sarah, Duchess of York - she is no longer a duchess, so is not addressed as "your Grace" (and obviously not HRH) because she is not married to a duke nor holds the title in her own right. She is sometimes known as The Duchess of York, but officially she is not - her legal name is Sarah, Duchess of York. Caroline, Princess of Hanover is Caroline's true legal (not royal) title. Monaco does not claim to MAKE her a Princess of Hanover, just styles her as such. Plus, if she WERE a Princess of Hanover, then she would derive that title (should it exist) by marriage, in which case her husband would be The Prince of Hanover, which he is not - it is his surname. If she doesn't derive it from her husband (as you suggest), then that implies she holds the rank of Princess of Hanover herself. If Monaco had created her so, she would therefore be known officially as HRH The Princess of Hanover everywhere AS a royal princess - she cannot be titled so in one country and not in all the rest. If she were a Princess of Hanover de facto it would be known everywhere. You're right she is officially styled HRH The Princess of Hanover nearly everywhere (Monaco included) but that is not her official nor legal title anywhere. As with any courtesy title, she does not enjoy the rank of a royal princess because she isn't one, and Monaco has not made and could not make her so. She has no royal title, only her princely one. I don't understand how you can argue that she holds any rank of being a Princess of Hanover when it is quite clear ALL Hanover titles were and remain abolished, or where you get the idea from that Monaco has resurrected a dead title. She is a princess of Monaco only. User:130.88.188.14
Caroline is accorded the title of Princess of Hanover just as her grandmother was accorded the title Duchess of Valentois or how her brother was accorded the title of Marquess of Baux. The original titles fell into French jurisdiction, but their use was adopted by the Monegasque court as Monagasque titles. I would make a stretch to say that it is analogous to the British Sovereign creating someone Earl Mountbatten of Burma, when really, Burma isn't the country according the title. Caroline is a Princess. She is also "of Hanover". She is the only princess in Monaco who is "of Hanover", whether as a surname or not. So she is The Princess of Hanover. Now, the Sovereign Prince of Monaco can accord or recognize whatever style he wants to Caroline. The style accorded to her is HRH. That is not disputed. It happens that Caroline's style is treated as a title. The title exists under Monegasque law, so let it be. The form I edited it to last seemed perfectly fair and fine considering your beliefs. Now, to be honest, it looks simply ridiculous. Caroline is referred to as HRH The Princess of Hanover by UNESCO and the Monegasque Government among others. CNN also refers to members of the Ernst's family as Princes and Princess of Hanover. Also, Caroline isn't the divorcee of Charles or Andrew... British form has nothing to do with this. Monaco extended this courtesy upon its own princess... Their princesses are matters that they handle. Ernst, as the head of a former royal house, can use the title on his own. In fact, he, the one who would otherwise have jurisdiction over the title, hasn't objected. The titles is used socially. The title exists socially. Therefore the title exists, but isn't backed up by the German government. Charles 03:55, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Caroline is a princess. Yes, she is "of Hanover" (surname). But that does not make her titled "Princess of Hanover" because she is not a Hanoverian Princess, she is a Monegasque princess. (Just because Prince Charles is Duke of Cornwall and Earl of chester does not make him "Duke of Chester" - the titles are considered whole). You're right, the Prince of Monaco can indeed recognize whatever style he wants, he styles her Princess of Hanover, and yes she is styled an HRH. But Caroline's style is NOT treated as a de jure title. She has not been created a Princess of Hanover by anyone, that would take legal letters patent etc, only STYLED and KNOWN as Princess of Hanover. A title does not exist "socially" (otherwise anybody could title themselves Duke of whatever) - it has to exist legally i.e. in the form of letters patent etc. Ernst has no jurisdiction over anything since he has no sovereign power as he is a pretender - you'll find the German government is responsible for that. If you can provide evidence that she legally holds the rank of a Royal (not Serene) Princess of Hanover (as the title is a whole), then your argument will be supported, since holding the rank, precedence etc is actually what holding a title is all about, not just being styled. Monaco cannot/has not create/d Hanover titles, although it can recognise individuals who bear their style. Finally, you cannot say that she formally holds a title in one country (Monaco) and only has it by courtesy elsewhere - if she has a title, she has a title - if she doesn't, she doesn't. And she doesn't!
Subsequent to her marriage to Ernst-August, Caroline adopted the "style" HRH as her husband had done.This style has been recognised by courtesy in Monaco by her late father and now her brother the reiging prince.Princess of Hanover is her surname only - nobody created or indeed could create her a princess of Hanover. She is a princess of Monaco and nothing else. Please also note that her grandmother was Duchesse de Valentinois in her own right - the title was implicitly re-created for her.
Caroline, princess of Hannover?. First of everything, Hannover is not a principality, it is a city of the Federal Republic of Germany, reason why that nobiliar title does not have any validity. Second, it is well-known internationally being the princess of Monaco, that if it is a principality, in which she is the first Lady from 1982 in which princess Grace Kelly dies. Finally, if the article deals with Caroline, it has to make mention to its own title, that she is the one of princess of Monaco, and not to the one of his third husband, that he is the one of Hannover. Therefore I believe that the article would have to be transferred to Caroline of Monaco.
Just a point:
Monaco doesn't accord her the title of Princess of Hanover; it accords her the style. She is not legally a Princess of Hanover (it's a surname not a royal title) as far as letters patent and legislation goes since legally she doesn't hold a rank of a princess of Hanover since the royal status of that house has been abolished. Monaco styles her officially but styles her by courtesy; similar to the late Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester who was not Princess Alice legally but The Princess Henry. Her official style is The Princess of Hanover everywhere, but she holds no title by that name - there is no evidence it is a legal title (but it is a legal style). By the way, how is "The" before Princess of Hanover informative? above: "And "The" in her title is informative, indicating that she is the consort of the head of the Hanover family rather than a member of it by birth" Just a question!
The article says: She was educated at the Sciences Po in Paris, and Princeton University in the USA.
Her official bio on the Monaco site says nothing about Princeton. She was educated at the Sorbonne in Paris, earning a diploma in Philosophy and minors in Psychology and Biology.
The result of the debate was no consensus. — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 18:06, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Caroline, Princess of Hanover → Princess Caroline of Monaco – Although "Princess of Hanover" (as wife of the head of a German dynasty dethroned in 1866) is the style that she and the court of Monaco use, Caroline is internationally famous because she is a Monegasque princess and Grace Kelly's daughter, and the most widely-known name for her is Princess Caroline of Monaco. Lethiere 23:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I SUPPORT this move because:
It seems to me that there's a fairly strong argument for calling a Monegasque princess by the title that the Monegasque government itself uses for her. Which would be, apparently, Princess of Hanover, and not Princess Caroline of Monaco. But I don't feel terribly strongly either way. john k 05:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that "Prince of Bourbon-Parma" is the more common usage, and is the better way for wikipedia articles to refer to such dynasts. john k 05:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The current policy is as per this MoS reference:
Perhaps Nunh-huh is referring to this section on disputes over styles:
The substantial reason for the change in date formats in this article is that Monaco uses the "littleendian" international date format of Day Month Year. In addition, the date formats were inconsistent and I rationalised them, as per my edit summary. -- Jumbo 00:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
When/if Caroline becomes Princess of Monaco, after she dies, will her son Andrea, when/if he succeeds as Prince of Monaco, use HRH or HSH? Morhange 16:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Is she not technically Princess Ernst August as she was not(and could not have been) born a princess of "Hanover " ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.45.251 ( talk • contribs)
Yes, she is the Princess of Hanover but she is not Princess Caroline of Hanover - She is officially styled S.A.R. la Princessse Ernst August de Hanovre. Royalpirate 09:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Wrong. Her sons do not have any titles or styles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.43.101 ( talk) 19:22, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Recent copyedits have improved the grammar and flow of the article but, in a few cases, somewhat diminished accuracy. I'm making minimal edits to restore accuracy as follows:
If Caroline becomes Princess of Monaco, would her children receive the Grimaldi surname and the style/title HSH Princess X of Monaco? For example would Andrea become HSH Prince Andrea Casiraghi Grimaldi of Monaco, of course he, as eldest son, would also be The Hereditary Prince of Monaco and Marquis of Baux. Prsgodd e ss187 22:22, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
As Hereditary Princess of Monaco, is Caroline also titled (even if not styled) as marquise des Baux? I am under the impression that this title belongs to the heir, but am unsure if it extends to heirs presumptive. Charles 05:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Nobility was abolished in Germany in 1919. Hannover is not a Kingdom. You cannot be Princess of Hannover in the real life. In the world of Disney you can be Princess, yes, but not in Germany because is a republic and the monarchie and nobility was abolished in 1919. --Hinzel 04:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hinzel ( talk • contribs)
Last phrase of the article: "Historically, styles associated with kingdoms, such as Ernst August's, have been deemed of higher rank and status than those associated with principalities." Stupid question: How can a kingdom that has been inexistent for almost a century have "higher rank and status" than an existent and very real principality? I know that nobility titles are legal in Germany, but there is no actual kingdom in Germany. Those German "nobility" titles are actually only some of "courtesy" while those in Monaco are very real (at least, real in Monaco). Fredyrod ( talk) 20:40, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
If she divorces Ernst as speculated, will she lose the HRH title and will she still be known as princess of hanover? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.222.184 ( talk) 13:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I am quite sure she will not. Catholic princesses should not divorce (TWICE)
Catholic princesses should not do plenty of the things she has done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.43.101 ( talk) 19:24, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
As she is HRH by marrige and HSH by birth, isn't she styled "Her Royal and Serene Highness" rather than "Her Royal Highness"?-- Scn82 ( talk) 11:11, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Anyone know exactly what the grounds for annulment of her first marriage were? And why they didn't occur to anyone before the event? Paul Magnussen ( talk) 00:27, 3 July 2011 (UTC) Apparently, the marriage was not consummated. (whover was responsible for her 1st pregnancy(miscarriage)., it seems Mr. Junot was not. Quel surprise. This poor woman has had great difficulty keeping track of her pregnancies and who caused them.
For anyone who is interested, her estranged husband is NOT *the* heir male of George III of the United Kingdom; only of George III of Hanover, who happened to be the same person.
One of the reasons the British monarchy continued to survive when almost every other monarch was swept from the face of Europe in the early to mid-20th century, is that it has always been a purely statutory institution. British constitutional law, like English and Scottish constitutional law before it, has never agnatic succession rules.
Scotland, however, historically recognised matrilineal succession. Prior to the Stewart/Stuart succession, the monarch was always male but his eligiblity for the throne was determined by his mother's royal position, not by his paternal connexions. Thus, a king was succeeded first by his brothers (the other sons of his mother, as ranking princess royal), then his nephews (his sisters sons), then his cousins (his mother's sisters grandsons), then finally by his own sons or grandsons - assuming he married the princess royal who was in the right position in the ranking for that to happen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.62.103 ( talk) 05:26, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
in pretenses from 1999 to now wouldn't she have been Know in pretenses as the Queen Of Hannover Because she marry her husband who is in pretenses King of Hannover? — Preceding unsigned comment added by KingOscarXIX ( talk • contribs) 16:54, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
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Because there are none, merely a pretender and she isn’t (even if she is a backer), but her husband.
That her husband is a pretender could be noted, but is not the front topic. She can't be named/titled "Princess of Hanover"/"the pretender" in the article, because it is not an official status of Germany and a thing Wikipedia should deal with that way. The article should be rewritten, it is not correct.
And his relatives renounced the title becoming dukes of Duchy of Brunswick, and denounced by the British royal family by the WWI. She is Caroline Welf and could possibly be Princess of Monaco if Albert II, Prince of Monaco recognize her as such.
I made a longer point of this topic at the talk of Otto Habsburg, that should be acknowledged by Wikipedia as a German CDU politician, not as a pretender, read it.
This is a politically too sensitive topic to be ignored. Wikipedia should not take political stands in favor of any, just be an observer.
Wikipedia needs a much stronger policy here!
-- Zzalpha ( talk) 15:43, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
"Caroline was romantically linked to many famous men, including Mark Shand, the younger brother of Camilla, Queen Consort of the United Kingdom; Guillermo Vilas; Sebastian Taylor, who had previously dated Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia; Jonathan Guinness, the son of Jonathan Guinness, 3rd Baron Moyne" That part is wrong and the link is talking about Caroline Kennedy, JFK's daughter not Princess Caroline. It should be deleted. Unfriendnow ( talk) 20:53, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of this move discussion was Moved to Princess Caroline of Monaco. It seems as though most everyone involved in the discussion would be amendable to this title. As already established it is a WP:COMMONNAME [1]. WP:NCROY also states "Do not use hypothetical, dissolved or defunct titles, including pretenders (real or hypothetical), unless this is what the majority of reliable sources use.", which (even some title relating to Hanover were clearly more common) would most likely prefer a title she holds in her own right by birth.
I would also cite the example set by Princess Birgitta of Sweden, who married a similar prince of a defunct German royal house. Her article is titled based on her undisputedly legitimate title at birth, so why should Princess Caroline be any different. ( non-admin closure)-- Estar8806 ( talk) 01:19, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
Caroline, Princess of Hanover → Princess Caroline of Hanover – Per WP:TITLECON. Looking at the articles of her husband Prince Ernst August of Hanover (born 1954), her father-in-law Prince Ernest Augustus of Hanover (born 1914), and her stepson Prince Ernst August of Hanover (born 1983), it seems that none of these pages treat the title of "Prince of Hanover" as a substantive title, which means that the feminine equivalent should not be treated as such either. It also makes sense since I don't think they are officially recognized within Hanover. That being said, I'm also open to having the page moved to Princess Caroline of Monaco as it is a clear WP:COMMONNAME per this Google Ngram and is consistent with how the wives of other Hanoverian princes and heads of the House of Hanover are referred to on Wikipedia, namely Princess Thyra of Denmark, Princess Victoria Louise of Prussia, Countess Monika zu Solms-Laubach, etc. Keivan.f Talk 00:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Peter Le Marchant Trust was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 29 November 2023 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Princess Caroline of Monaco. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
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I think, in case of the dinasty, Brunswick-Lüneburg is correct. Google hits: "Brunswick-Lunenburg": 290 (including many "... Brunswick, Lunenburg, ...") // "Brunswick-Lüneburg": 796
It depends if you want it in English, in German, or in a bastard mix of both. Apparently at Wikipedia we're going with the bastard version. -- Someone else 23:01, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)
As does Google:
"duchess of brunswick and lüneburg" - 39 "duchess of brunswick and luneburg" - 4 "duchess of brunswick and lunenburg" - 1 "duchess of braunschweig and lüneburg" - 2
-- Wik 23:04, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)
If it seems to be correct, we should change the bastards, 82.82.117.83 23:03, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC) (again)
"bastards"....an appropriate term given the family we're discussing. Britain's King Georg V revoked all titles held by the German branches of his family. To this end and given the fact that Ireland became a republic in 1948, this lady has no right to style herself....."Princess of Ireland"....
I'm not going to fight over spelling, you and Wik work it out. The next person along will change it to the one they prefer, and so on and so on... It's a matter of style, not correctness, and we have no style guide for this. --
Someone else 23:08, 12 Nov 2003 (UTC)~
As Heiress Apparent of Monaco, which she now is, does the Princess of Hanover automatically take the style of Hereditary Princess of Monaco as well as become Marquise des Baux?
She is no longer heiress apparent, as Prince Albert has legitimate issue. This is all a load of bollocks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.67.238.90 ( talk) 23:40, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
If Wiki's entry on Apparent versus Presumptive is correct, the Princess of Hanover is Heiress Apparent, not Presumptive, to the throne of Monaco. Her brother, Albert II, could certainly father an heir to the throne if he had the inclination.
The Princess of Hanover is now officially Heiress Presumptive and can only become Heiress if and when her brother dies childless
Note: an heir apparent is the person who will DEFINITELY inherit, since no child with a better claim could possibly be born. Prince Charles is therefore the heir apparent in the U.K. An heir presumptive is the person who will inherit IF AND ONLY IF a child with a better claim is NOT born. Queen Elizabeth was the heir presumptive in the U.K. up until the day she succeeded, because it was always theoretically possible that her father, King George VI, might produce a son, who would have bumped Elizabeth down in the line of succession. Caroline of Monaco is therefore the heiress presumptive, since any child born to her brother would precede her in the Monegasque line of succession. 68.72.94.110 ( talk) 01:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Is the style Marquise des Baux automatic or would it have to be officially conferred on her ? Also, does anyone know of the current incumbent of the Duchy de Valentinois ?
If I am not mistaken, the title of Marquis/Marquise des Baux is automatically and traditionally conferred on the heir/heiress to the throne of Monaco, though there may be some paperwork involved. But generally speaking, the heir to the throne seems to have automatically taken the Baux title. As for Valentinois, it was one of Prince Rainier's titles as Sovereign Prince of Monaco and not used by Prince Albert at all, so presumably it now is one of Albert II's titles until conferred otherwise. Louis II granted the Valentinois titles to his daughter and son-in-law upon their marriage, so presumably, based on that gift, the duchy of Valentinois belongs to the Sovereign Prince. Mowens35 10:55, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
How can this be? The living have no heirs.
The second official definition of "heir" is "A person who succeeds or is in line to succeed to a hereditary rank, title, or office." Note that bit "is in line to succeed" ... Mowens35 15:49, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Since Caroline is a Catholic, she is not an heir to the British throne, even distantly. Indeed, under the 18th-century Acts of Settlement, her husband lost HIS place in the line of succession owing to his marriage to Caroline. (Though it's possible that his first wife was also Catholic, in which case Ernst was bounced out of the line of succession to the British throne well before he married Caroline.) I'm amazed that the article suggests that he is still an heir to the British monarchy. He is not. 68.72.94.110 ( talk) 01:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
How can she have a different "official name" elsewhere? In fact, her official name is "Caroline Prinzessin von Hannover" which translates from German as "Caroline, Princess of Hanover".
I agree that her name should be as she herself uses it, officially and under most circumstances. I think when utilizing titles, whether active or defunct, Wiki contributors should rely on standard publications re nobiliary enrollment, such as Burke's Peerage, Debrett's, and the Almanach de Gotha. Though many titles in the Almanach, for instance, are defunct and no longer legally recognized by various countries of origin, the titles are commonly used and often the only ones by which the titleholders are known. If we go the opposite direction, ie restricting ourselves only to active and legally recognized titles, then we will be forced to refer to entry subjects such as Caroline of Hanover as Caroline Wettin or Mrs Ernst August Wettin, which would serve no one seeking information about her/them any good. Mowens35 13:30, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the recent changes, Irish Republicans are indeed grateful.
not strictly true. Her ancestor Louise Hippolyte reigned briefly in 1731
thanks for pointing this out; I have made the change in the text. Mowens35 13:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
65 guests does not suggest "lavish"....is Hello really a reliable source ?
This is outdated information. Albert has publicly admitted to fathering two children out of wedlock - a daughter in California and a son in Africa - both of whom receive child support payments from him but neither of whom is eligible to ascend the Monegasque throne.
By what title is Chantal Hoculi, first wife of Ernt August of Hanover now known ? - Chantal, Princess of Hanover ?
She can accurately be referred to as either, though she is typically and usually known as Princess Chantal of Hanover. As a divorced wife, she would be referred to, strictly correctly, as HRH Chantal, Princess of Hanover. This is the form a divorcée usually takes, ie Diana, Princess of Wales. Mowens35 20:29, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
And please note that whomever added "Mrs. Caroline Casiraghi" to the Princess's titles did so in error; please do not do it again. In addition to her Monegasque title, she was Mrs. Stefano Casiraghi from the moment she married him until until she remarried after his death; she was Casiraghi's widow. As long as she did not remarry, she remained Mrs. Stefano Casiraghi, per traditional marital convention, whatever one's status, royal or commoner; so in 1999, she ceased to be Mrs. Stefano Casiraghi and became Princess of Hanover. Typically, according to tradition, however outmoded in today's world, to call someone "Mrs. Caroline Casiraghi" is to imply that she is/was divorced, which is not the case. Mowens35 20:29, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Also please see paragraph 9 for the official style that Princess Caroline adopted upon her marriage to her present husband. Following this, the introductory title of the Wiki entry, ie the title first cited in the text, should be accurately "Her Royal Highness The Princess of Hanover and Hereditary Princess of Monaco." If anybody has further questions about this, I would be happy to call the Embassy of Monaco or the editors of the Almanach de Gotha for confirmation. Mowens35 21:05, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"Her Royal Highness The Princess of Hanover and Hereditary Princess of Monaco" imlpies that she is also HRH Hereditary Princess of Monaco which is not the case.
That is wrong - her only TITLE is as a princess of Monaco. She does not hold any title "Princess of Hanover" or HRH, that is just what she STYLES herself, she is a princess but only a Monagesque princess, there are no Hanoverian princes(ses) anymore. Her legal name is Caroline, Princess of Hanover which acts in just the same way as Mr. John Smith. This should be mentioned - what she is de facto, all this Royal Highness rubbish is superfluous because she ISN'T a royal highness.
No republic can take away the title of Prince of Princess. There will always be Hanoverian Princes(ses)!
Princess Caroline should be titled Her Royal Highness as she was born in the current ruling house of Monaco. She, therefore, is royalty and her birth right is that title. And, as she is married to a Prince of Hanover, she is a Princess of Hanover. Republics can take titles away but that does not mean much. A ruling house of any country and its members are royalty, and they are in the right to be styled any titles they choose, whether another monarchy or anyone else feels that house counts as Royalty or not. RosePlantagenet 20:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
not to imply that she was divorced but widowed. It is my understanding that she would have been styled Mrs. Caroline Casiraghi from October 3, 1990 until January 23,1999.
(If Diana had been widowed, she would still have been known as Diana, Princess of Wales but would have kept her HRH style.)
A dowager is a widow who holds a title or property derived from her deceased husband.The Princess of Wales is a courtesy title given to the wife of a Prince of Wales. If Diana had been widowed she would have been known as The Dowager Princess of Wales.
I wish people would stop referring to the Grimaldis as "Royal" - they are not. With the exception of Princesse Caroline, HRH by marriage, the are a princely house whose members bear the style "Serene Highness". Offical correspondence always refers to them as Famille Princier - not Famille Royale.
Uh ! when you go to the official web site Official web site, what do you see: Royal Family ! 194.183.196.141 08:46, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
but the French version of this site refers to "Famille Princier" - I imagine it is poor translation which resluts in "Royal Family"
No, it means THEY translated it BADLY. 24.14.120.92 04:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
The Grimaldis have been ruling for 700 years and are the ruling house of Monaco, they are royalty. Most places in the world view them as royals. If you are descended from a ruling house of any country now or sometime in the past, whether that house still exists as the ruling house or not, through one parent or both, you are royalty. RosePlantagenet
"(Caroline Louise Marguerite Wettin, formerly Grimaldi)"
AFAIK her official name is "Caroline Prinzessin von Hannover" (in English "Caroline Princess of Hanover"). The Hanover family does not use the Wettin name, it is only dynastical but has no official status in Germany as surname.
The Wettin name is wrong as it is the name of the former royals of Saxony. Not Hannover. They have the name Welf. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 20:02, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Just for the record, 130.88.188.205 insists that Caroline is legally titled Caroline, Princess of Hanover, but *not* styled HRH. Let it be known that Caroline's use of the title of Princess of Hanover comes along with the style of HRH, unless the head of the house (her husband), comes up with something to the contrary. Caroline is styled as HRH The Princess of Hanover in Monaco (the last I heard, before she became Hereditary Princess). Elsewhere, she is styled HRH by courtesy, whether using a Hanoverian or Monegasque title. Caroline no longer uses HSH and the article should reflect that. This is simply my stance on the needless and incorrect edits to the contrary.
I simply ask that those opposed to the style present their argument here. Charles 06:53, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Monaco allows her to be styled HRH, but then, so could anyone since it is a courtesy style. You're right the style is what she is called (HRH The Princess of Hanover) but there IS NO TITLE of Princess of Hanover - if there was, that would mean the Princely House of Hanover legally exists, but it doesn't (there is a family with that surname but they do not hold Royal status. Monaco claims the ducal and marquesal titles to be their own, which is why they use them (as the monarchs of England did with the claim of being King/Queen of France, it was only a nominal claim and they were not de facto kings of France). Princess of Hanover is not a Royal title, it is a surname - if you're arguing that it IS a royal title it is like saying anybody could change their surname to Prince/ess of X and said to BE a prince/ss when in fact they are not. She is accorded the style Princess of Hanover in Monaco by courtesy just like anywhere else - as far as I am aware Monaco has not enacted legislation to make her the Princess of Hanover and they would not have any right to do so, and if they did it would only be a nominal claim. How can the sovereign of Monaco have legal authority over a title of a territory he neither makes a nominal claim to nor enacts any legislation for? User:130.88.188.14
The same is true of Diana, Princess of Wales. Whilst the title may LOOK as though she was The Princess of Wales, she was in fact, not, since that title goes only to the wife of the Prince of Wales, which she was no longer. Her "Princess of Wales" was a just a name - she was no longer in the order of precedence, entitled to use the Royal Standard etc because she was no longer a princess. She could have styled herself as The Princess of Wales, but if she had that is not what she was. The same is true of Sarah, Duchess of York - she is no longer a duchess, so is not addressed as "your Grace" (and obviously not HRH) because she is not married to a duke nor holds the title in her own right. She is sometimes known as The Duchess of York, but officially she is not - her legal name is Sarah, Duchess of York. Caroline, Princess of Hanover is Caroline's true legal (not royal) title. Monaco does not claim to MAKE her a Princess of Hanover, just styles her as such. Plus, if she WERE a Princess of Hanover, then she would derive that title (should it exist) by marriage, in which case her husband would be The Prince of Hanover, which he is not - it is his surname. If she doesn't derive it from her husband (as you suggest), then that implies she holds the rank of Princess of Hanover herself. If Monaco had created her so, she would therefore be known officially as HRH The Princess of Hanover everywhere AS a royal princess - she cannot be titled so in one country and not in all the rest. If she were a Princess of Hanover de facto it would be known everywhere. You're right she is officially styled HRH The Princess of Hanover nearly everywhere (Monaco included) but that is not her official nor legal title anywhere. As with any courtesy title, she does not enjoy the rank of a royal princess because she isn't one, and Monaco has not made and could not make her so. She has no royal title, only her princely one. I don't understand how you can argue that she holds any rank of being a Princess of Hanover when it is quite clear ALL Hanover titles were and remain abolished, or where you get the idea from that Monaco has resurrected a dead title. She is a princess of Monaco only. User:130.88.188.14
Caroline is accorded the title of Princess of Hanover just as her grandmother was accorded the title Duchess of Valentois or how her brother was accorded the title of Marquess of Baux. The original titles fell into French jurisdiction, but their use was adopted by the Monegasque court as Monagasque titles. I would make a stretch to say that it is analogous to the British Sovereign creating someone Earl Mountbatten of Burma, when really, Burma isn't the country according the title. Caroline is a Princess. She is also "of Hanover". She is the only princess in Monaco who is "of Hanover", whether as a surname or not. So she is The Princess of Hanover. Now, the Sovereign Prince of Monaco can accord or recognize whatever style he wants to Caroline. The style accorded to her is HRH. That is not disputed. It happens that Caroline's style is treated as a title. The title exists under Monegasque law, so let it be. The form I edited it to last seemed perfectly fair and fine considering your beliefs. Now, to be honest, it looks simply ridiculous. Caroline is referred to as HRH The Princess of Hanover by UNESCO and the Monegasque Government among others. CNN also refers to members of the Ernst's family as Princes and Princess of Hanover. Also, Caroline isn't the divorcee of Charles or Andrew... British form has nothing to do with this. Monaco extended this courtesy upon its own princess... Their princesses are matters that they handle. Ernst, as the head of a former royal house, can use the title on his own. In fact, he, the one who would otherwise have jurisdiction over the title, hasn't objected. The titles is used socially. The title exists socially. Therefore the title exists, but isn't backed up by the German government. Charles 03:55, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Caroline is a princess. Yes, she is "of Hanover" (surname). But that does not make her titled "Princess of Hanover" because she is not a Hanoverian Princess, she is a Monegasque princess. (Just because Prince Charles is Duke of Cornwall and Earl of chester does not make him "Duke of Chester" - the titles are considered whole). You're right, the Prince of Monaco can indeed recognize whatever style he wants, he styles her Princess of Hanover, and yes she is styled an HRH. But Caroline's style is NOT treated as a de jure title. She has not been created a Princess of Hanover by anyone, that would take legal letters patent etc, only STYLED and KNOWN as Princess of Hanover. A title does not exist "socially" (otherwise anybody could title themselves Duke of whatever) - it has to exist legally i.e. in the form of letters patent etc. Ernst has no jurisdiction over anything since he has no sovereign power as he is a pretender - you'll find the German government is responsible for that. If you can provide evidence that she legally holds the rank of a Royal (not Serene) Princess of Hanover (as the title is a whole), then your argument will be supported, since holding the rank, precedence etc is actually what holding a title is all about, not just being styled. Monaco cannot/has not create/d Hanover titles, although it can recognise individuals who bear their style. Finally, you cannot say that she formally holds a title in one country (Monaco) and only has it by courtesy elsewhere - if she has a title, she has a title - if she doesn't, she doesn't. And she doesn't!
Subsequent to her marriage to Ernst-August, Caroline adopted the "style" HRH as her husband had done.This style has been recognised by courtesy in Monaco by her late father and now her brother the reiging prince.Princess of Hanover is her surname only - nobody created or indeed could create her a princess of Hanover. She is a princess of Monaco and nothing else. Please also note that her grandmother was Duchesse de Valentinois in her own right - the title was implicitly re-created for her.
Caroline, princess of Hannover?. First of everything, Hannover is not a principality, it is a city of the Federal Republic of Germany, reason why that nobiliar title does not have any validity. Second, it is well-known internationally being the princess of Monaco, that if it is a principality, in which she is the first Lady from 1982 in which princess Grace Kelly dies. Finally, if the article deals with Caroline, it has to make mention to its own title, that she is the one of princess of Monaco, and not to the one of his third husband, that he is the one of Hannover. Therefore I believe that the article would have to be transferred to Caroline of Monaco.
Just a point:
Monaco doesn't accord her the title of Princess of Hanover; it accords her the style. She is not legally a Princess of Hanover (it's a surname not a royal title) as far as letters patent and legislation goes since legally she doesn't hold a rank of a princess of Hanover since the royal status of that house has been abolished. Monaco styles her officially but styles her by courtesy; similar to the late Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester who was not Princess Alice legally but The Princess Henry. Her official style is The Princess of Hanover everywhere, but she holds no title by that name - there is no evidence it is a legal title (but it is a legal style). By the way, how is "The" before Princess of Hanover informative? above: "And "The" in her title is informative, indicating that she is the consort of the head of the Hanover family rather than a member of it by birth" Just a question!
The article says: She was educated at the Sciences Po in Paris, and Princeton University in the USA.
Her official bio on the Monaco site says nothing about Princeton. She was educated at the Sorbonne in Paris, earning a diploma in Philosophy and minors in Psychology and Biology.
The result of the debate was no consensus. — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 18:06, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Caroline, Princess of Hanover → Princess Caroline of Monaco – Although "Princess of Hanover" (as wife of the head of a German dynasty dethroned in 1866) is the style that she and the court of Monaco use, Caroline is internationally famous because she is a Monegasque princess and Grace Kelly's daughter, and the most widely-known name for her is Princess Caroline of Monaco. Lethiere 23:31, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I SUPPORT this move because:
It seems to me that there's a fairly strong argument for calling a Monegasque princess by the title that the Monegasque government itself uses for her. Which would be, apparently, Princess of Hanover, and not Princess Caroline of Monaco. But I don't feel terribly strongly either way. john k 05:16, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree that "Prince of Bourbon-Parma" is the more common usage, and is the better way for wikipedia articles to refer to such dynasts. john k 05:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
The current policy is as per this MoS reference:
Perhaps Nunh-huh is referring to this section on disputes over styles:
The substantial reason for the change in date formats in this article is that Monaco uses the "littleendian" international date format of Day Month Year. In addition, the date formats were inconsistent and I rationalised them, as per my edit summary. -- Jumbo 00:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
When/if Caroline becomes Princess of Monaco, after she dies, will her son Andrea, when/if he succeeds as Prince of Monaco, use HRH or HSH? Morhange 16:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Is she not technically Princess Ernst August as she was not(and could not have been) born a princess of "Hanover " ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.45.251 ( talk • contribs)
Yes, she is the Princess of Hanover but she is not Princess Caroline of Hanover - She is officially styled S.A.R. la Princessse Ernst August de Hanovre. Royalpirate 09:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Wrong. Her sons do not have any titles or styles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.43.101 ( talk) 19:22, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
Recent copyedits have improved the grammar and flow of the article but, in a few cases, somewhat diminished accuracy. I'm making minimal edits to restore accuracy as follows:
If Caroline becomes Princess of Monaco, would her children receive the Grimaldi surname and the style/title HSH Princess X of Monaco? For example would Andrea become HSH Prince Andrea Casiraghi Grimaldi of Monaco, of course he, as eldest son, would also be The Hereditary Prince of Monaco and Marquis of Baux. Prsgodd e ss187 22:22, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
As Hereditary Princess of Monaco, is Caroline also titled (even if not styled) as marquise des Baux? I am under the impression that this title belongs to the heir, but am unsure if it extends to heirs presumptive. Charles 05:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Nobility was abolished in Germany in 1919. Hannover is not a Kingdom. You cannot be Princess of Hannover in the real life. In the world of Disney you can be Princess, yes, but not in Germany because is a republic and the monarchie and nobility was abolished in 1919. --Hinzel 04:49, 10 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hinzel ( talk • contribs)
Last phrase of the article: "Historically, styles associated with kingdoms, such as Ernst August's, have been deemed of higher rank and status than those associated with principalities." Stupid question: How can a kingdom that has been inexistent for almost a century have "higher rank and status" than an existent and very real principality? I know that nobility titles are legal in Germany, but there is no actual kingdom in Germany. Those German "nobility" titles are actually only some of "courtesy" while those in Monaco are very real (at least, real in Monaco). Fredyrod ( talk) 20:40, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
If she divorces Ernst as speculated, will she lose the HRH title and will she still be known as princess of hanover? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.222.184 ( talk) 13:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
I am quite sure she will not. Catholic princesses should not divorce (TWICE)
Catholic princesses should not do plenty of the things she has done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.43.101 ( talk) 19:24, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
As she is HRH by marrige and HSH by birth, isn't she styled "Her Royal and Serene Highness" rather than "Her Royal Highness"?-- Scn82 ( talk) 11:11, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Anyone know exactly what the grounds for annulment of her first marriage were? And why they didn't occur to anyone before the event? Paul Magnussen ( talk) 00:27, 3 July 2011 (UTC) Apparently, the marriage was not consummated. (whover was responsible for her 1st pregnancy(miscarriage)., it seems Mr. Junot was not. Quel surprise. This poor woman has had great difficulty keeping track of her pregnancies and who caused them.
For anyone who is interested, her estranged husband is NOT *the* heir male of George III of the United Kingdom; only of George III of Hanover, who happened to be the same person.
One of the reasons the British monarchy continued to survive when almost every other monarch was swept from the face of Europe in the early to mid-20th century, is that it has always been a purely statutory institution. British constitutional law, like English and Scottish constitutional law before it, has never agnatic succession rules.
Scotland, however, historically recognised matrilineal succession. Prior to the Stewart/Stuart succession, the monarch was always male but his eligiblity for the throne was determined by his mother's royal position, not by his paternal connexions. Thus, a king was succeeded first by his brothers (the other sons of his mother, as ranking princess royal), then his nephews (his sisters sons), then his cousins (his mother's sisters grandsons), then finally by his own sons or grandsons - assuming he married the princess royal who was in the right position in the ranking for that to happen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.62.103 ( talk) 05:26, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
in pretenses from 1999 to now wouldn't she have been Know in pretenses as the Queen Of Hannover Because she marry her husband who is in pretenses King of Hannover? — Preceding unsigned comment added by KingOscarXIX ( talk • contribs) 16:54, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
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Because there are none, merely a pretender and she isn’t (even if she is a backer), but her husband.
That her husband is a pretender could be noted, but is not the front topic. She can't be named/titled "Princess of Hanover"/"the pretender" in the article, because it is not an official status of Germany and a thing Wikipedia should deal with that way. The article should be rewritten, it is not correct.
And his relatives renounced the title becoming dukes of Duchy of Brunswick, and denounced by the British royal family by the WWI. She is Caroline Welf and could possibly be Princess of Monaco if Albert II, Prince of Monaco recognize her as such.
I made a longer point of this topic at the talk of Otto Habsburg, that should be acknowledged by Wikipedia as a German CDU politician, not as a pretender, read it.
This is a politically too sensitive topic to be ignored. Wikipedia should not take political stands in favor of any, just be an observer.
Wikipedia needs a much stronger policy here!
-- Zzalpha ( talk) 15:43, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
"Caroline was romantically linked to many famous men, including Mark Shand, the younger brother of Camilla, Queen Consort of the United Kingdom; Guillermo Vilas; Sebastian Taylor, who had previously dated Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia; Jonathan Guinness, the son of Jonathan Guinness, 3rd Baron Moyne" That part is wrong and the link is talking about Caroline Kennedy, JFK's daughter not Princess Caroline. It should be deleted. Unfriendnow ( talk) 20:53, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of this move discussion was Moved to Princess Caroline of Monaco. It seems as though most everyone involved in the discussion would be amendable to this title. As already established it is a WP:COMMONNAME [1]. WP:NCROY also states "Do not use hypothetical, dissolved or defunct titles, including pretenders (real or hypothetical), unless this is what the majority of reliable sources use.", which (even some title relating to Hanover were clearly more common) would most likely prefer a title she holds in her own right by birth.
I would also cite the example set by Princess Birgitta of Sweden, who married a similar prince of a defunct German royal house. Her article is titled based on her undisputedly legitimate title at birth, so why should Princess Caroline be any different. ( non-admin closure)-- Estar8806 ( talk) 01:19, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
Caroline, Princess of Hanover → Princess Caroline of Hanover – Per WP:TITLECON. Looking at the articles of her husband Prince Ernst August of Hanover (born 1954), her father-in-law Prince Ernest Augustus of Hanover (born 1914), and her stepson Prince Ernst August of Hanover (born 1983), it seems that none of these pages treat the title of "Prince of Hanover" as a substantive title, which means that the feminine equivalent should not be treated as such either. It also makes sense since I don't think they are officially recognized within Hanover. That being said, I'm also open to having the page moved to Princess Caroline of Monaco as it is a clear WP:COMMONNAME per this Google Ngram and is consistent with how the wives of other Hanoverian princes and heads of the House of Hanover are referred to on Wikipedia, namely Princess Thyra of Denmark, Princess Victoria Louise of Prussia, Countess Monika zu Solms-Laubach, etc. Keivan.f Talk 00:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)