This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
There are many articles purporting to be History which are just Bible stories. We don't even know who wrote most of the bible or its provenance. If I ask for better sources I am ignored. If I delete the bible stories, I get blocked without any stated reason. Don't know why I bother. Fourtildas 06:11, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
It is hard to tell if anything in this article is sourced, because of the almost complete lack of footnotes.-- Sefringle 03:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
... should often be classified as primary sources, IMHO. The classic case is the publication of results of experiments or fieldwork, especially when statistical or other forensic methodologies are involved. That is, the paper is not establishing facts, it is reporting evidence of some kind, all the more so when the research was motivated by some as yet unresolved issue. The basic problem here is the misuse of primary sources, already mentioned in WP policy. The paper being published in a reputable journal may meet the minimal requirements of a reliable source, but this does not automatically make the paper a secondary source suitable for citation in support of supposedly established facts. Put another way, the paper is original research, and its presence in the journal only makes it a primary source from a reliable source.
Failing to make this clear allows fringecreep, where an article on a controversy gets swamped by all sorts of tangential references, defended on the grounds that they are reliably sourced! rudra 22:53, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
When a court issues a written ruling, with a statement of facts, followed by the discussion, the discussion has an obvious status of a primary source but also has an appearance of being a secondary source. I see a synthesis, where the judge(s) analyze prior rulings and prior history and synthesize it into a new opinion. Yet, I do not see a 'peer review'. Also, I am not sure the judge is playing the role of a scholar or a researcher, but perhaps some role close to this. I see a gray area, and I am curious of other editors opinions as to whether the discussion that accompanies court rulings is considered by Wikipedia guidelines to be a primary source, or a secondary source. SaltyBoatr 04:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
During a spate of vandalism, we have lost the section on the use of primary sources. I'm not sure whether this was deliberate. I'll add it back shortly if no one argues for its removal. Rjm at sleepers 06:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
A large chunk of this section has twice been deleted and twice reverted. There may be a legitimate objection to the deleted text, but if so the deletion deserves a better explanation. At the moment, it looks to me that a constructive edit clarifying the objection would be a better way of proceeding. Rjm at sleepers 07:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps the 9/11 conspiracy could be used as an example of the veracity of a primary source. Yes, the live accounts at the time only mentioned a small plane instead of a commercial jetliner, or that there was a bomb going off in the buildings, but that's because nobody could believe it was even possible at the time. When the unbelievable happens, it should always be taken with a careful grain of salt. MMetro 20:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Director Re has added "in the scientific literature, a primary source is the first report of a scientific result by the researchers themselves, and a secondary source is a synthesis of information from primary sources, usually published in review journals." I am not familiar with the usage in scientific literature, but I would have expected the publication of a result to be a secondary source whereas the primary source would be the researchers notebooks. Rjm at sleepers 05:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the following: "When using primary source material, care must be taken to not include copies of primary source material. In certain circumstances, there is a place for this source material, but usually not as part of an article."
I believe it is about Wikipedia articles and Wikipedia's no original research policy and IMO is not relevant or indeed true for using primary sources in historical studies. It probably should go in the relevant Wikipedia guideline. My apologies if I have misunderstood. Rjm at sleepers 08:00, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't feel comfortable with the most recent revision. How about the following:
In historiography and other areas of scholarship, a primary source (also called original source) is a document, recording or other source of information that was created at the time being studied, by an authoritative source, usually one with direct personal knowledge of the events being described. It serves as an original source of information about the topic. Primary sources are distinguished from secondary sources, which often cite, comment on, or build upon primary sources. [1]
Rjm at sleepers 08:23, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I have changed the order of the intro, so that the definition precedes the statement about characteristics of a primary source. This is to avoid the inference that the first mention of a particular "fact" is by definition a primary source. Rjm at sleepers 09:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
There are a couple of citations to some library websites, which I'm deleting because they are not reliable sources. Also, the idea that library science has some special definition of primary source that differs from that of historiography is unverifiable, probably original research, and simply wrong. Library science uses the same definitions. Also, I resored a citation to a reliable source (a published book). COGDEN 17:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
FYI, I've brought up the issue of whether library help pages are reliable sources on the Reliable Source noticeboard, so that we can have some outside comment. It's obvious where I stand, but if there appears to be a Wikipedia-wide consensus that Wikipedia should accept such websites as reliable sources, then I'll accept that. Ultimately, it doesn't matter as far as the content is concerned, since the definitions are the same, but it's the principle of the thing—I think that when peer-reviewed journals are available, we have no business citing some library nerd's website (which is all these are, for all we know). COGDEN 22:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I have modified the comment "the primary nature of a source may also derive from the fact that no copy of an original source material exists, and it is the oldest extant source for the information cited". I have not checked the reference, but I assume it does accurately reflect the sentiments expressed. Nonetheless, there are many historians who would not accept this idea. For example in The Archimedes Codex (page 32), Netz points out that the earliest source for Archimedes age at death was in the 12th century AD. He describes the source as "a gossipy, fanciful poem". Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 07:58, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I've never heard a primary source be called an original recording - this may be ignorance on my part. Most internet usage of the term original recording seems to be about audio. Anyway, I'll put a fact tag on it. Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 08:24, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
This article needs a rewrite along the lines of the recent changes to Secondary source. It needs more coverage of non-event-oriented history, and more on the strengths and weaknesses of primary sources. Also, the rather patronizing comment that one needs an advanced degree to use primary sources should go. It's true that interpretation of some primary sources calls for advanced training; it's also true that grade-school children read primary sources all the time without knowing it. Wikipedia can do better. I might do this in a week or two, but I wouldn't object to someone else taking up the task. Katherine Tredwell 01:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not entirely unacquainted with the existence of graduate programs in history. Sure, some texts are difficult, but the article goes too far. "In general, primary sources are difficult to use and advanced college or postgraduate training is normally required..." is simply untrue. A university freshman or bright high-school student can be given a research project and taught to ask questions about a source and its context. In the US at least, we don't do it, so nobody knows how to do it even with the simplest sources. Katherine Tredwell 18:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not claiming that anyone can do any level of historical research on anything without any training, just that the current article overstates the case. Wikipedia frowns on original research in articles on any subject because it's an encyclopedia. Most generalist encyclopedias these days contain little or no original research. I won't discuss the matter further right now; I have better ways to spend my time. Whenever the article is revised we can take it up again. Katherine Tredwell 19:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I work with students in grades 4-12 on a program that is mostly devoted to students at those grades taking on research projects and supporting their thesis with primary and secondary sources. To say you need graduate training is completely inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.129.21.99 ( talk) 20:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello. primary source is by definition more authoritative than secondary source. I think there is a bit of confusion here. Yes, the seconary source could mean academic reseach. It could also refer to reference to contemporary social commentaries or journalism. Yes, one single primarly source is not authoritative. This miss that point. To establish a historical fact, primarly source have to be corraborated. You don't built historical fact from hearsay (i.e secondary source).
Vapour
This article's lede, while well-sourced, commits original research. It presents definitions of primary sources as authoritative and unified, which couldn't be further from the truth. It pushes a particular (synthesized) POV of primary sources, instead of objectively describing the many varied and often contradicting definitions of primary sources. Vassyana ( talk) 18:11, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed the second paragraph, a blockquote by a Danish writer named Olden-Jørgensen. I gather that the translator (BH) was trying to correct what he saw as an inadequate distinction between primary and secondary sources, but this passage failed to make the point. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 18:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Comment by Birger Hjørland (Marts 30, 2005)
The way in which primary source, secondary source and tertiary source has been defined in Wikipedia is not in accordance with the way in which is has been defined by UNISIST in 1971 and taken over, by among others, the present writer. (See Fjordback Søndergaard; Andersen & Hjørland, 2003).
Also, the normal language in Library and information science is to speak of bibliografies and the like as secondary sources (or secundary literature).
There are variations in the use of these concepts between the humanities and the sciences, however, if a general terminology should be established, we recommend the UNISIST terminology.
Fjordback Søndergaard, T.; Andersen, J. & Hjørland, B. (2003). Documents and the communication of scientific and scholarly information. Revising and updating the UNISIST model. Journal of Documentation, 59(3), 278-320. Available at: http://www.db.dk/bh/UNISIST.pdf <<Link is broken - is this it? http://www.db.dk/bh/core%20concepts%20in%20lis/articles%20a-z/unisist_model_of_information_dis.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.52.25.64 ( talk) 17:57, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Would anyone object if I set up some auto-archiving? There are some very old threads here. Yaris678 ( talk) 01:06, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
How do people feel about:
"Although virtually every type of document that has been used by historians as a primary source has been forged at one time or another, primary sources in a reputable record office are likely to be authentic".
Rjm at sleepers 07:34, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
@ Rjm at Sleepers: The source you're using (Everyone has Roots) for the mention of Edward Dering's forgery, do you own it or have easy access to it? I can find no mention of him forging "monumental brasses" anywhere, but plenty of evidence that he forged the so-called Dering roll to enhance his own ancestry. -- Labeet ( talk) 10:14, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
@ Rjm at Sleepers: According to Wagner's book (as confirmed by History Centre Surrey in an e-mail) it does say that he forged brasses at Pluckley Church. But I think that a reference to his main forgery, namely that of the Dering Roll would be more appropriate, since the roll has recently been acquired by the British Library for a substantial sum and since that is what Dering is most "famous" for. Source: British Library: http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelprestype/manuscripts/recentacquisitions/recentacquisitions.html The story can be found on several other websites, but they all seem to have copied the information from the BL press release -- Labeet ( talk) 10:37, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I can't help but feel that the primary motivation of the section on Forgeries is to express an anti-church agenda rather than explain to wikipedia readers the significance of forgeries as it relates to primary sources. I'm not in a position to debate the accuracies of the forgeries themselves, nor am I inclined to. The second paragraph which contains the examples of forgeries currently cites
* "Donation of Constantine" * Anglo Saxon Charters * 11th/12th century monasteries * monumental brasses in a local church * Hitler Diaries * unspecified documents placed in UK National Archives
The last "example" is no example at all since it gives no specifics and is not verifiable. That leaves 4 of the 5 examples relating back to the church. Considering the wikipedia discussion under the general term, "forgery" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgery, you will see a broad set of examples which does not appear to take aim at any single entity. If you want the section on "Primary Source"/"forgery" to be helpful to the wikipedia reader, a broader historical cross-section of examples and fewer that take aim at a single source would go a long way to removing bias and improving the quality of this wikipedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.218.117.101 ( talk) 13:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Today, huge segments of the population are being trained that all the past respected inputs from reality (news, science, textbooks, academia, etc) are lying to them. (Think Rush Limbaugh etc, that's his main teaching.) So? How does one find truth? It's a question of huge and growing new importance.
: Dictionary.com: primary source
This article's emphasis says primary sources are almost exclusively about history. Somehow I'd always thought of primary sources in terms of current events: say; the news maker himself, as opposed to the reporter or commentator. But more than just current events, in all epistemological endeavors: Where is the truth?
What is the term I'm looking for?
As an aside, by this article's definitions, I'm concerned that Rush Limbaugh's world view and depiction of current events will be given nearly as much weight by future historians as say, the president of France, or the CEO's (or other movers and shakers) who's actions made the history. Shouldn't this be more plainly discussed?
Doug Bashford-- 69.110.91.25 ( talk) 19:15, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
[[:Image:Nihon_odai_ichiran_waseda.jpg|thumb|right|80px|This illustrative page from the Waseda University's copy of the 17th century Nihon Ōdai Ichiran shows part of a widely-used Edo period reference book about Imperial Japanese history.]] [[:Image:Nihon Odai Ichiran sample page.jpg|thumb|right|80px|This sample page from the 19th century Nihon Ōdai Ichiran illustrates the book's section layout, merged composition of Japanese kanji and French type-face text, and rare pre- Hepburn transliterations in the context of the original published paragraphs.]] The following text was added to the article. Then I solicited feedback from contributors to this talk page. There was some uncertainty about whether this was helpful; and so I moved the text here pending consensus about how best to proceed.
If there is a way that these paragraphs can be modified so that they enhance the quality of the article, I would be pleased to see this text restored.
It may be that this effort -- despite my good intentions -- simply doesn't work in the context of this article? -- Tenmei ( talk) 21:49, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I think you should clean up the opening paragraph of your comment, -- clarify and define what you are talking about. When you write: "The following text was added to the article." ...I'm guessing you mean; add to THIS article?
If so, while I think the points and questions you raise are critical, no I don't think those quotes belong here. They are too long, complex, and require too much inside expertise to be used as examples or illustrations. Examples should illuminate, not raise further questions. But again, those and similar questions need to be discussed.
Here is one question you may have in mind: Should the term Primary Source be defined strictly according to technical definitions such as proximity to the events in question, or should the term also imply that it's a good or reliable source -- as far as we know? For example, the king's personal friend who is also his official propaganda arm, town crier, and biographer? And what of the king's dire enemy? A thousand years later, those may have the maximum proximity to the events in question. Or as you ask, What is the source of the source? Should those things be considered before we call something a Primary Source? In my mind, the king or an unbiased observer is a primary source, and a vested interest is not. Since the town crier is being told what to write, he's a secondary source. You seem to be asking; Should a thousand years have the power to turn a secondary source into a primary source?
To over-simplify, I guess a question I'm asking here and below is, should the historian's job be as seeker and teacher of truth, or as a stenographer?
Doug Bashford-- 69.110.91.25 ( talk) 22:36, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
I think it would be good to have this article directly address the differences between a "primary source" and a "first-person" source (an issue of the grammatical person), as well as a first-party source (an issue of involvement).
For example, imagine a person who witnesses a motor vehicle accident and writes a description in his (or her) diary, like these:
These statements would both be considered primary sources, but they are are not both first-person, first-party sources. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 17:54, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
The following has been removed
This was accompanied by the edit summary "ancient documents relating second-hand stories are still primary sources according to historians". I was intending to revert this removal, but the removed text was grammatically poor so I will raise it on the discussion page. As I pointed out above, there are many historians who would not accept the idea that a second hand story can be a primary source. To repeat my example in The Archimedes Codex (page 32), Netz points out that the earliest source for Archimedes age at death was in the 12th century AD. He describes the source as "a gossipy, fanciful poem". For many (most?) historians, qualification as a primary source requires direct personal knowledge written down at the time. I propose the following.
Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 07:44, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
Ntox has recently changed the first line of the intro. I have to say, I don't particularly like what he wrote, but it was probably no worse than what was there before and there were refs to support it. I have changed the singular to the plural which seems to me to be better English. I have also added a clarification from one of the sources to the effect that a primary source is not written with the benefit of hindsight. The problem with the current first line of the intro is it fails to get across the need for direct personal knowledge, written down at the time. An autobiography written by a politician after he or she leaves office may be the original source of a slur about another politician, but it is not a primary source. Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 07:31, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
For the moment, I have reverted a deletion by Staszec Lem. The referenced source clearly says that accounts written after the fact with the benefit of hindsight are secondary (and therefore not primary). On the other hand, it is a rather clumsy sentence, so we should be able to improve it. Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 06:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
I am about to remove the diagram that was added recently. It looks like a Venn diagram and therefore implies that primary sources are a subset of secondary sources which is not true. Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 10:52, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
I have removed JSTOR as a repository for primary sources. There may be a few transcripts and documents that are regarded as primary in some fields, but it is almost exclusively journals and books and therefore secondary. Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 08:40, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article says - "Investigative journalism is a form of journalism in which reporters deeply investigate a single topic of interest, such as serious crimes, political corruption, or corporate wrongdoing. An investigative journalist may spend months or years researching and preparing a report."
There may be specific cases where an investigative journalist is an eyewitness or a participant, but the essence of investigative journalism is that the journalist talks to those who participated and reaches a conclusion based on many sources. It is a virtually textbook example of a secondary source. The current citation for the claim that it is a primary source says "Primary sources provide first-hand testimony or direct evidence concerning a topic under investigation. They are created by witnesses or recorders who experienced the events or conditions being documented." Despite the use of the word investigation, this does not come close to saying that investigative journalism fits the definition of a primary source. In the absence of a specific citation, I propose to delete the claim. Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 05:40, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
There are many articles purporting to be History which are just Bible stories. We don't even know who wrote most of the bible or its provenance. If I ask for better sources I am ignored. If I delete the bible stories, I get blocked without any stated reason. Don't know why I bother. Fourtildas 06:11, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
It is hard to tell if anything in this article is sourced, because of the almost complete lack of footnotes.-- Sefringle 03:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
... should often be classified as primary sources, IMHO. The classic case is the publication of results of experiments or fieldwork, especially when statistical or other forensic methodologies are involved. That is, the paper is not establishing facts, it is reporting evidence of some kind, all the more so when the research was motivated by some as yet unresolved issue. The basic problem here is the misuse of primary sources, already mentioned in WP policy. The paper being published in a reputable journal may meet the minimal requirements of a reliable source, but this does not automatically make the paper a secondary source suitable for citation in support of supposedly established facts. Put another way, the paper is original research, and its presence in the journal only makes it a primary source from a reliable source.
Failing to make this clear allows fringecreep, where an article on a controversy gets swamped by all sorts of tangential references, defended on the grounds that they are reliably sourced! rudra 22:53, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
When a court issues a written ruling, with a statement of facts, followed by the discussion, the discussion has an obvious status of a primary source but also has an appearance of being a secondary source. I see a synthesis, where the judge(s) analyze prior rulings and prior history and synthesize it into a new opinion. Yet, I do not see a 'peer review'. Also, I am not sure the judge is playing the role of a scholar or a researcher, but perhaps some role close to this. I see a gray area, and I am curious of other editors opinions as to whether the discussion that accompanies court rulings is considered by Wikipedia guidelines to be a primary source, or a secondary source. SaltyBoatr 04:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
During a spate of vandalism, we have lost the section on the use of primary sources. I'm not sure whether this was deliberate. I'll add it back shortly if no one argues for its removal. Rjm at sleepers 06:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
A large chunk of this section has twice been deleted and twice reverted. There may be a legitimate objection to the deleted text, but if so the deletion deserves a better explanation. At the moment, it looks to me that a constructive edit clarifying the objection would be a better way of proceeding. Rjm at sleepers 07:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps the 9/11 conspiracy could be used as an example of the veracity of a primary source. Yes, the live accounts at the time only mentioned a small plane instead of a commercial jetliner, or that there was a bomb going off in the buildings, but that's because nobody could believe it was even possible at the time. When the unbelievable happens, it should always be taken with a careful grain of salt. MMetro 20:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Director Re has added "in the scientific literature, a primary source is the first report of a scientific result by the researchers themselves, and a secondary source is a synthesis of information from primary sources, usually published in review journals." I am not familiar with the usage in scientific literature, but I would have expected the publication of a result to be a secondary source whereas the primary source would be the researchers notebooks. Rjm at sleepers 05:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the following: "When using primary source material, care must be taken to not include copies of primary source material. In certain circumstances, there is a place for this source material, but usually not as part of an article."
I believe it is about Wikipedia articles and Wikipedia's no original research policy and IMO is not relevant or indeed true for using primary sources in historical studies. It probably should go in the relevant Wikipedia guideline. My apologies if I have misunderstood. Rjm at sleepers 08:00, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't feel comfortable with the most recent revision. How about the following:
In historiography and other areas of scholarship, a primary source (also called original source) is a document, recording or other source of information that was created at the time being studied, by an authoritative source, usually one with direct personal knowledge of the events being described. It serves as an original source of information about the topic. Primary sources are distinguished from secondary sources, which often cite, comment on, or build upon primary sources. [1]
Rjm at sleepers 08:23, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I have changed the order of the intro, so that the definition precedes the statement about characteristics of a primary source. This is to avoid the inference that the first mention of a particular "fact" is by definition a primary source. Rjm at sleepers 09:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
There are a couple of citations to some library websites, which I'm deleting because they are not reliable sources. Also, the idea that library science has some special definition of primary source that differs from that of historiography is unverifiable, probably original research, and simply wrong. Library science uses the same definitions. Also, I resored a citation to a reliable source (a published book). COGDEN 17:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
FYI, I've brought up the issue of whether library help pages are reliable sources on the Reliable Source noticeboard, so that we can have some outside comment. It's obvious where I stand, but if there appears to be a Wikipedia-wide consensus that Wikipedia should accept such websites as reliable sources, then I'll accept that. Ultimately, it doesn't matter as far as the content is concerned, since the definitions are the same, but it's the principle of the thing—I think that when peer-reviewed journals are available, we have no business citing some library nerd's website (which is all these are, for all we know). COGDEN 22:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I have modified the comment "the primary nature of a source may also derive from the fact that no copy of an original source material exists, and it is the oldest extant source for the information cited". I have not checked the reference, but I assume it does accurately reflect the sentiments expressed. Nonetheless, there are many historians who would not accept this idea. For example in The Archimedes Codex (page 32), Netz points out that the earliest source for Archimedes age at death was in the 12th century AD. He describes the source as "a gossipy, fanciful poem". Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 07:58, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I've never heard a primary source be called an original recording - this may be ignorance on my part. Most internet usage of the term original recording seems to be about audio. Anyway, I'll put a fact tag on it. Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 08:24, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
This article needs a rewrite along the lines of the recent changes to Secondary source. It needs more coverage of non-event-oriented history, and more on the strengths and weaknesses of primary sources. Also, the rather patronizing comment that one needs an advanced degree to use primary sources should go. It's true that interpretation of some primary sources calls for advanced training; it's also true that grade-school children read primary sources all the time without knowing it. Wikipedia can do better. I might do this in a week or two, but I wouldn't object to someone else taking up the task. Katherine Tredwell 01:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not entirely unacquainted with the existence of graduate programs in history. Sure, some texts are difficult, but the article goes too far. "In general, primary sources are difficult to use and advanced college or postgraduate training is normally required..." is simply untrue. A university freshman or bright high-school student can be given a research project and taught to ask questions about a source and its context. In the US at least, we don't do it, so nobody knows how to do it even with the simplest sources. Katherine Tredwell 18:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not claiming that anyone can do any level of historical research on anything without any training, just that the current article overstates the case. Wikipedia frowns on original research in articles on any subject because it's an encyclopedia. Most generalist encyclopedias these days contain little or no original research. I won't discuss the matter further right now; I have better ways to spend my time. Whenever the article is revised we can take it up again. Katherine Tredwell 19:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I work with students in grades 4-12 on a program that is mostly devoted to students at those grades taking on research projects and supporting their thesis with primary and secondary sources. To say you need graduate training is completely inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.129.21.99 ( talk) 20:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Hello. primary source is by definition more authoritative than secondary source. I think there is a bit of confusion here. Yes, the seconary source could mean academic reseach. It could also refer to reference to contemporary social commentaries or journalism. Yes, one single primarly source is not authoritative. This miss that point. To establish a historical fact, primarly source have to be corraborated. You don't built historical fact from hearsay (i.e secondary source).
Vapour
This article's lede, while well-sourced, commits original research. It presents definitions of primary sources as authoritative and unified, which couldn't be further from the truth. It pushes a particular (synthesized) POV of primary sources, instead of objectively describing the many varied and often contradicting definitions of primary sources. Vassyana ( talk) 18:11, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
I removed the second paragraph, a blockquote by a Danish writer named Olden-Jørgensen. I gather that the translator (BH) was trying to correct what he saw as an inadequate distinction between primary and secondary sources, but this passage failed to make the point. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 18:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
Comment by Birger Hjørland (Marts 30, 2005)
The way in which primary source, secondary source and tertiary source has been defined in Wikipedia is not in accordance with the way in which is has been defined by UNISIST in 1971 and taken over, by among others, the present writer. (See Fjordback Søndergaard; Andersen & Hjørland, 2003).
Also, the normal language in Library and information science is to speak of bibliografies and the like as secondary sources (or secundary literature).
There are variations in the use of these concepts between the humanities and the sciences, however, if a general terminology should be established, we recommend the UNISIST terminology.
Fjordback Søndergaard, T.; Andersen, J. & Hjørland, B. (2003). Documents and the communication of scientific and scholarly information. Revising and updating the UNISIST model. Journal of Documentation, 59(3), 278-320. Available at: http://www.db.dk/bh/UNISIST.pdf <<Link is broken - is this it? http://www.db.dk/bh/core%20concepts%20in%20lis/articles%20a-z/unisist_model_of_information_dis.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.52.25.64 ( talk) 17:57, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Would anyone object if I set up some auto-archiving? There are some very old threads here. Yaris678 ( talk) 01:06, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
How do people feel about:
"Although virtually every type of document that has been used by historians as a primary source has been forged at one time or another, primary sources in a reputable record office are likely to be authentic".
Rjm at sleepers 07:34, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
@ Rjm at Sleepers: The source you're using (Everyone has Roots) for the mention of Edward Dering's forgery, do you own it or have easy access to it? I can find no mention of him forging "monumental brasses" anywhere, but plenty of evidence that he forged the so-called Dering roll to enhance his own ancestry. -- Labeet ( talk) 10:14, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
@ Rjm at Sleepers: According to Wagner's book (as confirmed by History Centre Surrey in an e-mail) it does say that he forged brasses at Pluckley Church. But I think that a reference to his main forgery, namely that of the Dering Roll would be more appropriate, since the roll has recently been acquired by the British Library for a substantial sum and since that is what Dering is most "famous" for. Source: British Library: http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelprestype/manuscripts/recentacquisitions/recentacquisitions.html The story can be found on several other websites, but they all seem to have copied the information from the BL press release -- Labeet ( talk) 10:37, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I can't help but feel that the primary motivation of the section on Forgeries is to express an anti-church agenda rather than explain to wikipedia readers the significance of forgeries as it relates to primary sources. I'm not in a position to debate the accuracies of the forgeries themselves, nor am I inclined to. The second paragraph which contains the examples of forgeries currently cites
* "Donation of Constantine" * Anglo Saxon Charters * 11th/12th century monasteries * monumental brasses in a local church * Hitler Diaries * unspecified documents placed in UK National Archives
The last "example" is no example at all since it gives no specifics and is not verifiable. That leaves 4 of the 5 examples relating back to the church. Considering the wikipedia discussion under the general term, "forgery" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgery, you will see a broad set of examples which does not appear to take aim at any single entity. If you want the section on "Primary Source"/"forgery" to be helpful to the wikipedia reader, a broader historical cross-section of examples and fewer that take aim at a single source would go a long way to removing bias and improving the quality of this wikipedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.218.117.101 ( talk) 13:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
Today, huge segments of the population are being trained that all the past respected inputs from reality (news, science, textbooks, academia, etc) are lying to them. (Think Rush Limbaugh etc, that's his main teaching.) So? How does one find truth? It's a question of huge and growing new importance.
: Dictionary.com: primary source
This article's emphasis says primary sources are almost exclusively about history. Somehow I'd always thought of primary sources in terms of current events: say; the news maker himself, as opposed to the reporter or commentator. But more than just current events, in all epistemological endeavors: Where is the truth?
What is the term I'm looking for?
As an aside, by this article's definitions, I'm concerned that Rush Limbaugh's world view and depiction of current events will be given nearly as much weight by future historians as say, the president of France, or the CEO's (or other movers and shakers) who's actions made the history. Shouldn't this be more plainly discussed?
Doug Bashford-- 69.110.91.25 ( talk) 19:15, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
[[:Image:Nihon_odai_ichiran_waseda.jpg|thumb|right|80px|This illustrative page from the Waseda University's copy of the 17th century Nihon Ōdai Ichiran shows part of a widely-used Edo period reference book about Imperial Japanese history.]] [[:Image:Nihon Odai Ichiran sample page.jpg|thumb|right|80px|This sample page from the 19th century Nihon Ōdai Ichiran illustrates the book's section layout, merged composition of Japanese kanji and French type-face text, and rare pre- Hepburn transliterations in the context of the original published paragraphs.]] The following text was added to the article. Then I solicited feedback from contributors to this talk page. There was some uncertainty about whether this was helpful; and so I moved the text here pending consensus about how best to proceed.
If there is a way that these paragraphs can be modified so that they enhance the quality of the article, I would be pleased to see this text restored.
It may be that this effort -- despite my good intentions -- simply doesn't work in the context of this article? -- Tenmei ( talk) 21:49, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
I think you should clean up the opening paragraph of your comment, -- clarify and define what you are talking about. When you write: "The following text was added to the article." ...I'm guessing you mean; add to THIS article?
If so, while I think the points and questions you raise are critical, no I don't think those quotes belong here. They are too long, complex, and require too much inside expertise to be used as examples or illustrations. Examples should illuminate, not raise further questions. But again, those and similar questions need to be discussed.
Here is one question you may have in mind: Should the term Primary Source be defined strictly according to technical definitions such as proximity to the events in question, or should the term also imply that it's a good or reliable source -- as far as we know? For example, the king's personal friend who is also his official propaganda arm, town crier, and biographer? And what of the king's dire enemy? A thousand years later, those may have the maximum proximity to the events in question. Or as you ask, What is the source of the source? Should those things be considered before we call something a Primary Source? In my mind, the king or an unbiased observer is a primary source, and a vested interest is not. Since the town crier is being told what to write, he's a secondary source. You seem to be asking; Should a thousand years have the power to turn a secondary source into a primary source?
To over-simplify, I guess a question I'm asking here and below is, should the historian's job be as seeker and teacher of truth, or as a stenographer?
Doug Bashford-- 69.110.91.25 ( talk) 22:36, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
I think it would be good to have this article directly address the differences between a "primary source" and a "first-person" source (an issue of the grammatical person), as well as a first-party source (an issue of involvement).
For example, imagine a person who witnesses a motor vehicle accident and writes a description in his (or her) diary, like these:
These statements would both be considered primary sources, but they are are not both first-person, first-party sources. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 17:54, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
The following has been removed
This was accompanied by the edit summary "ancient documents relating second-hand stories are still primary sources according to historians". I was intending to revert this removal, but the removed text was grammatically poor so I will raise it on the discussion page. As I pointed out above, there are many historians who would not accept the idea that a second hand story can be a primary source. To repeat my example in The Archimedes Codex (page 32), Netz points out that the earliest source for Archimedes age at death was in the 12th century AD. He describes the source as "a gossipy, fanciful poem". For many (most?) historians, qualification as a primary source requires direct personal knowledge written down at the time. I propose the following.
Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 07:44, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
Ntox has recently changed the first line of the intro. I have to say, I don't particularly like what he wrote, but it was probably no worse than what was there before and there were refs to support it. I have changed the singular to the plural which seems to me to be better English. I have also added a clarification from one of the sources to the effect that a primary source is not written with the benefit of hindsight. The problem with the current first line of the intro is it fails to get across the need for direct personal knowledge, written down at the time. An autobiography written by a politician after he or she leaves office may be the original source of a slur about another politician, but it is not a primary source. Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 07:31, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
For the moment, I have reverted a deletion by Staszec Lem. The referenced source clearly says that accounts written after the fact with the benefit of hindsight are secondary (and therefore not primary). On the other hand, it is a rather clumsy sentence, so we should be able to improve it. Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 06:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
I am about to remove the diagram that was added recently. It looks like a Venn diagram and therefore implies that primary sources are a subset of secondary sources which is not true. Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 10:52, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
I have removed JSTOR as a repository for primary sources. There may be a few transcripts and documents that are regarded as primary in some fields, but it is almost exclusively journals and books and therefore secondary. Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 08:40, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article says - "Investigative journalism is a form of journalism in which reporters deeply investigate a single topic of interest, such as serious crimes, political corruption, or corporate wrongdoing. An investigative journalist may spend months or years researching and preparing a report."
There may be specific cases where an investigative journalist is an eyewitness or a participant, but the essence of investigative journalism is that the journalist talks to those who participated and reaches a conclusion based on many sources. It is a virtually textbook example of a secondary source. The current citation for the claim that it is a primary source says "Primary sources provide first-hand testimony or direct evidence concerning a topic under investigation. They are created by witnesses or recorders who experienced the events or conditions being documented." Despite the use of the word investigation, this does not come close to saying that investigative journalism fits the definition of a primary source. In the absence of a specific citation, I propose to delete the claim. Rjm at sleepers ( talk) 05:40, 27 September 2014 (UTC)