For instance, the sentence: "Heterosexuality is the most common sexual orientation." I would grant the accuracy of this statement if Wikipedia were about only the United States, but its not. To include this sentence, Wikipedians would have to show evidence that the homo/hetero dichotomy or whatever conception of sexuality we are discussing in the article, is the ruling conception of sexuality in all countries. Then one would have to show that statistically, heterosexuality was the majority. Neither of these have been done.
Likewise with the next sentence: "Heterosexuality is the social norm in nearly all societies, but less and less so in the modern urbanity of the post-industrial age." One would have to show that this conception of heterosexuality exists in "nearly all societies", that it is the predominate conception of sexuality, and that it is the social norm. This has not been done. Also, "nearly all societies" is a weasel term. Numerous counterexamples of societies or countries in which heterosexuality is not the "social norm" thus may be ignored; either because despite counterexamples "nearly all" still do, and any counterexample may be dismissed as not being from a "society" (but rather from some other kind of group).
Lets get off our high horse, and get our hands dirty w some facts. In which societies is heterosexuality not the norm? Sam [ Spade] 18:10, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I challenge you to provide any remotely convincing evidence that heterosexuality is not the norm in those places. A large amount of gay people does not a norm make. Sam [ Spade] 18:23, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Sorry, but you're going to have to define a few things a lot more carefully if you want to say something like this. What is a "social norm"? What is a "society"? How do we know who's heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, etc? By whom is it seen as the social norm? How do you know? That should do for a start. Exploding Boy 01:00, Jul 4, 2004 (UTC)
MOVED FROM Talk:Heterosexuality.
>> From a historical perspective, the practice of heterosexuality is rare in human society. Most ancient and pre-modern societies practiced a quasi-universal bisexuality, in which same-sex love manifested as one of several constructs (see History of homosexuality). With the rise of Christianity in the west, that erotic polymorphism was problematized, and men who were caught engaging in sexual relationships with other males were labeled as sodomites and subjected to a range of punishments. However they were still not seen as being "different" from those who chose not to engage in such practices.
It was only in the early 1900's that heterosexuality began to appear as an identity, the polar opposite of the recently invented "homosexuality." <<
Thank you for making this attempt...
The content of the first two sentences is highly disputed on a factual basis. I don't think it was only Christianity that "problematized" "erotic polymorphism" (if that is supposed to mean "stigmatized non-heterosexuality, etc."), so that needs more context, at the very least. The issue of e.g. homosexual identity in history is rather complex. Which cultures considered e.g. homosexuality a neutral behavior which anyone might choose to engage in? Which cultures assigned an identity to "homosexuals" in the same way we assign the identity "thief"? Etc. The last sentence also seems problematic, since it seems to imply that e.g. biological homosexual sexual orientation did not really exist before the 1900s. As a factual matter, that's unlikely to be the case, if you believe that there is such a thing. (Which I do.)
It would be nice to have a quick summary of History of sexuality (note there's no hetero- or homo- there) in this article, but it has to be fair and neutral and accurate and not over-simplify.
I'm not actually sure that that article is complete enough unto itself to construct a good summary. I've added a link to that article as a temporary band-aid, though. If anyone wants to attempt another summary of the history article, feel free; or, we might discuss some proposed text here on the talk page. If anyone wants to put the above text back in the main article (with a note that it's disputed), please also feel free; I don't mean to be too heavy-handed.
I suppose if I want to be more constructive than critical, I should put some time into improving History of sexuality to the point where it's easier to get a good summary. That might take a while, though. -- Beland 08:58, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Homosexual and heterosexual refer to types of intercourse, not types of people. The problem you all are having is that the irregular concept of "gay culture" has skewed our conceptions of people and cultures into "heterosexual" and "homosexual" (perhaps even "parasexual").
The truth is that all societies and people are a continuum, not a dichotomy. The abrahamic religions recognized this, and disapproving of sex which did not lead to reproduction (be fruitful and multiply) placed severe restrictions on these sexual acts. If we are to ascribe to a dichotomy of "gay culture" and "heteronormative culture" then we (the west) are currently a gay culture. Maybe that is the reason for the low birthrates?
In summary, heterosexual is a sex act between a man and a woman (biological man and woman, of course). Sex acts of all sorts have been regulated and stigmatized or encouraged in all cultures to one degree or another. The statement "the practice of heterosexuality is rare in human society" is ludicrous, and utterly without merit in the article. Do you mean that because men and women do not have sex with one another for most of their day, most of the time, etc... that it is rare for a man and a woman to have sex? WTF? Sam [ Spade] 17:05, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"From a historical perspective, the practice of heterosexuality is rare in human society"
So as I was re-writing the intro to cover the complexities covered on the talk page here, I realized that the topic I was introducing was really the history of sexuality, not the statistical prevalence of heterosexuality. I feel that most of this section should be merged into History of sexuality.
The remainder of the article is a very poor treatment of the statistical prevalence of heterosexuality, since it's either vague, or Kinsey. There's a much better treatment on Prevalence of homosexuality. Given how much overlap there is between the two articles, I think they should be merged into Demographics of sexual orientation. I mean, with some of these studies, when they show that 5% of people are homosexual, then they also show that 94% are heterosexual and 1% are bisexual, or whatever the numbers happen to be. (Not that there even is an article on "Prevalence of bisexuality"!) Some of them use spectral measurements of attraction and/or behavior, so they most certainly would have to be mentioned in all two or three or however many articles.
-- Beland 05:04, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
For instance, the sentence: "Heterosexuality is the most common sexual orientation." I would grant the accuracy of this statement if Wikipedia were about only the United States, but its not. To include this sentence, Wikipedians would have to show evidence that the homo/hetero dichotomy or whatever conception of sexuality we are discussing in the article, is the ruling conception of sexuality in all countries. Then one would have to show that statistically, heterosexuality was the majority. Neither of these have been done.
Likewise with the next sentence: "Heterosexuality is the social norm in nearly all societies, but less and less so in the modern urbanity of the post-industrial age." One would have to show that this conception of heterosexuality exists in "nearly all societies", that it is the predominate conception of sexuality, and that it is the social norm. This has not been done. Also, "nearly all societies" is a weasel term. Numerous counterexamples of societies or countries in which heterosexuality is not the "social norm" thus may be ignored; either because despite counterexamples "nearly all" still do, and any counterexample may be dismissed as not being from a "society" (but rather from some other kind of group).
Lets get off our high horse, and get our hands dirty w some facts. In which societies is heterosexuality not the norm? Sam [ Spade] 18:10, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I challenge you to provide any remotely convincing evidence that heterosexuality is not the norm in those places. A large amount of gay people does not a norm make. Sam [ Spade] 18:23, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Sorry, but you're going to have to define a few things a lot more carefully if you want to say something like this. What is a "social norm"? What is a "society"? How do we know who's heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, etc? By whom is it seen as the social norm? How do you know? That should do for a start. Exploding Boy 01:00, Jul 4, 2004 (UTC)
MOVED FROM Talk:Heterosexuality.
>> From a historical perspective, the practice of heterosexuality is rare in human society. Most ancient and pre-modern societies practiced a quasi-universal bisexuality, in which same-sex love manifested as one of several constructs (see History of homosexuality). With the rise of Christianity in the west, that erotic polymorphism was problematized, and men who were caught engaging in sexual relationships with other males were labeled as sodomites and subjected to a range of punishments. However they were still not seen as being "different" from those who chose not to engage in such practices.
It was only in the early 1900's that heterosexuality began to appear as an identity, the polar opposite of the recently invented "homosexuality." <<
Thank you for making this attempt...
The content of the first two sentences is highly disputed on a factual basis. I don't think it was only Christianity that "problematized" "erotic polymorphism" (if that is supposed to mean "stigmatized non-heterosexuality, etc."), so that needs more context, at the very least. The issue of e.g. homosexual identity in history is rather complex. Which cultures considered e.g. homosexuality a neutral behavior which anyone might choose to engage in? Which cultures assigned an identity to "homosexuals" in the same way we assign the identity "thief"? Etc. The last sentence also seems problematic, since it seems to imply that e.g. biological homosexual sexual orientation did not really exist before the 1900s. As a factual matter, that's unlikely to be the case, if you believe that there is such a thing. (Which I do.)
It would be nice to have a quick summary of History of sexuality (note there's no hetero- or homo- there) in this article, but it has to be fair and neutral and accurate and not over-simplify.
I'm not actually sure that that article is complete enough unto itself to construct a good summary. I've added a link to that article as a temporary band-aid, though. If anyone wants to attempt another summary of the history article, feel free; or, we might discuss some proposed text here on the talk page. If anyone wants to put the above text back in the main article (with a note that it's disputed), please also feel free; I don't mean to be too heavy-handed.
I suppose if I want to be more constructive than critical, I should put some time into improving History of sexuality to the point where it's easier to get a good summary. That might take a while, though. -- Beland 08:58, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Homosexual and heterosexual refer to types of intercourse, not types of people. The problem you all are having is that the irregular concept of "gay culture" has skewed our conceptions of people and cultures into "heterosexual" and "homosexual" (perhaps even "parasexual").
The truth is that all societies and people are a continuum, not a dichotomy. The abrahamic religions recognized this, and disapproving of sex which did not lead to reproduction (be fruitful and multiply) placed severe restrictions on these sexual acts. If we are to ascribe to a dichotomy of "gay culture" and "heteronormative culture" then we (the west) are currently a gay culture. Maybe that is the reason for the low birthrates?
In summary, heterosexual is a sex act between a man and a woman (biological man and woman, of course). Sex acts of all sorts have been regulated and stigmatized or encouraged in all cultures to one degree or another. The statement "the practice of heterosexuality is rare in human society" is ludicrous, and utterly without merit in the article. Do you mean that because men and women do not have sex with one another for most of their day, most of the time, etc... that it is rare for a man and a woman to have sex? WTF? Sam [ Spade] 17:05, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
"From a historical perspective, the practice of heterosexuality is rare in human society"
So as I was re-writing the intro to cover the complexities covered on the talk page here, I realized that the topic I was introducing was really the history of sexuality, not the statistical prevalence of heterosexuality. I feel that most of this section should be merged into History of sexuality.
The remainder of the article is a very poor treatment of the statistical prevalence of heterosexuality, since it's either vague, or Kinsey. There's a much better treatment on Prevalence of homosexuality. Given how much overlap there is between the two articles, I think they should be merged into Demographics of sexual orientation. I mean, with some of these studies, when they show that 5% of people are homosexual, then they also show that 94% are heterosexual and 1% are bisexual, or whatever the numbers happen to be. (Not that there even is an article on "Prevalence of bisexuality"!) Some of them use spectral measurements of attraction and/or behavior, so they most certainly would have to be mentioned in all two or three or however many articles.
-- Beland 05:04, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)