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Please look at MOS:OPENPARABIO. The lead sentence should contain these components:
Most relevantly for the recent edits, are items 4 and 5. It is inappropriate for the lead sentence to only state "Prem Pal Singh Rawat (born 10 December 1957) is an Indian American also known formerly as Maharaji." This neither states what position or activity he is known for, not why he is noteworthy. If you wish to edit the lead sentence, kindly make sure that you change it to a sentence that follows the guidelines at MOS:OPENPARABIO. LK ( talk) 13:23, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 05:22, 17 April 2021 (UTC)Prem Pal Singh Rawat (born 10 December 1957, formerly known by honorifics such as Maharaji) is an Indian American who, after leading a new religious movement, the Divine Light Mission (DLM), when he was a teenager, evolved into an inspirational speaker transmitting his message of peace through organizations such as The Prem Rawat Foundation (TPRF). ...
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Lawrencekhoo ( talk • contribs)Prem Pal Singh Rawat (born 10 December 1957, formerly known as Maharaji) is an Indian American who heads the Prem Rawat Foundation. He is a former spiritual leader who lead the Divine Light Mission (DLM) (a new religious movement) ....
Prem Pal Singh Rawat (born 10 December 1957, formerly known by honorifics such as Maharaji) is an Indian American who, after being perceived as the leader of a new religious movement when he was a teenager, has imposed itself over time as an inspirational speaker transmitting a message of personal peace.
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:20, 17 April 2021 (UTC)Prem Pal Singh Rawat (born 10 December 1957), known as Maharaji when he was leading a new religious movement in the 1970s, is an Indian American who is transmitting a message of peace through organizations such as The Prem Rawat Foundation (TPRF). ...
@ Francis Schonken: I'm sorry to remind you that a consensus was reached on this new intro before your intervention and I invite you to refer to it. /info/en/?search=Talk:Prem_Rawat#Is_there_anything_to_be_done_on_this_page_to_make_it_acceptable?
So let's start from there because otherwise we don't move forward. Your interpretation of Wikipedia's rules is variable geometry, it seems to me. Once again, I am surprised by your untimely interventions, which once again lead us into an editorial war in which I refuse to participate. You know very well that by reintroducing all these Hindu terms which are no longer valid in India (and again this is to be verified for some), you are also reintroducing a cognitive bias emphasizing the origins of the person, which can be detrimental to him. I'm going to turn to a Wikipedia administrator for an opinion, because all this does not strike me as being fair.
Last point: by questioning the validity of this article in the context of a biography on Prem Rawat (classified under the Music section), I am not questioning the newspaper itself. Don't mix things up.
I will be relieved and very happy to see you resume the dialogue in an open and constructive manner as we had started to do. I did not hesitate to congratulate you when you solved the question of TimelessToday better than I had proposed. -- Faunus ( talk) 11:00, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Any objections to describing as "founder of The Prem Rawat Foundation"? LK ( talk) 17:02, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Here is another proposal for the intro:
@ Francis Schonken: I come back to you to inform that I have done extensive background analysis work that led to the current problematic situation regarding PR's biography. I have also gathered many secondary sources of good quality which make it possible to realize how much better he is today perceived and invited to express himself on many media, as well as with various institutions which have understood the interest in his human-based approach and his eminently positive resources, when it becomes aware of his potential.
I have therefore created two sections to present the fruit of my work on my own talk page which I invite you to consult. Please do not vandalize it. User_talk:Faunus
Once you have learned about these new elements, I hope we can resume the dialogue in a more constructive way.
I would really appreciate you to show your good will and remove the gratuitous and unwarranted additions that you reintroduced in the first paragraph of the introduction. I remind you that just because Wikipedia is a space open to everyone, it doesn't mean that we can do anything about it.-- Faunus ( talk) 16:46, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Considering that you used the reinsertion of Hindu terms in the intro of the bio in retaliation for disagreement on another subject, I withdraw them to return to the version which had obtained a consensus on April 6 before your intervention. -- Faunus ( talk) 01:07, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
I have transferred “observations, analyzes and new sources available” to my user page User:Faunus and added a section #PR's message: remarkable consistency over time.-- Faunus ( talk) 17:34, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
I agree that half articles are in foreign language, but only half I will underline. For some of them, I provided the link to the translation. Remember that PR is working on a global level and, therefore, he is the subject of articles in different languages. At least, I still limit myself to articles in the Roman alphabet! I choose them among many in relation to the information they contain and their editorial quality. I don’t read Italian and Spanish either, but I used Google translation. I must confess I do the same sometimes when I work in English, because of my shortcomings. My English must be a bit baroque sometimes… Wikipedia advocates, to some extent, the use of foreign sources to better represent the diversity of cultures. Read this if you are interesting Wikipedia:Reliable sources and undue weight at section 2. -- Faunus ( talk) 19:31, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
In sum, regarding the lead sentence, whether there was some kind of consensus for it some time ago is quite immaterial: there is no consensus for its current version now. So, we can go back to the prior consensus, or try to find a new one at #Lead sentence or paragraph above. Failing to find a new consensus, will likely mean that this goes back to a previous (relatively broader) consensus. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 09:35, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
To @franchis schonken
Sorry if I am not following guicdelines correctly. I am very new at this! And this is my first contribution to Talk!
I just want to thank Francis Schonken for their guidance in formatting references correctly. It is not so easy.
I hope the latest insert concerning the MOU was referenced correctly. If not, please advise.
Keep well! Richard Reive Richard.reive Richard.reive ( talk) 17:03, 9 May 2021 (UTC) Richard.reive ( talk) 17:05, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
For those interested, I undertook an analysis of the Wikiquote page devoted to PR and the lessons that can be drawn from it. I have compared some of his earliest statements to others from these last ten years. Below is the introduction to this study, continued on my user page:
-- Faunus ( talk) 00:13, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
I propose to group the organizations into 2 sections: the old organizations (DLM and EV) the current organizations (TPRF, WOPG and TimelessToday). Are there any objections?-- Faunus ( talk) 17:29, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Just this message to inform readers of this page that I have started a new article on my user page, which addresses the issue of the quality of the sources which will include several chapters. The first one gathers general informations about the bibliographic page dedicated to Prem Rawat.-- Faunus ( talk) 22:43, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
Below the beginning of Part 2 on my user page, about Mike Finch's testimony:
The link to the full article Dr Finch’s strange book – Faunus ( talk) 09:59, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
For those interested, I published a third part at the chapter “The quality of the sources” which highlights some mistakes commonly made by sociologists in the 1970s, thus introducing a cognitive bias that we still have trouble getting rid of today. This should lead the Wikipedian community to take a step back from the hasty conclusions of this distant period. In any case, it is the hope that I have for the more or less near future.
The link to the full article From the trap of systemic analysis. Thanks for reading me and think about. – Faunus ( talk) 01:06, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
I have just added a new section to my analysis of Prem Rawat‘s page, which will highlight the relevance of his message. From there, anything that has been said and written a little lightly loses its interest in order to rewrite an honest, factual, up-to-date and non-defamatory biography. Below is the start of this article.
The link to the full article on my user page User:Faunus#An underestimated work because it is not academic – Faunus ( talk) 00:56, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
I inform the community of users who follow this page, that I had a second part to this section, based on a talk that PR does in November 8, 2019, during the celebration of his father's birthday. Just to give you a glimpse of it, below the beginning. But read it until the very end on my user page, you will be surprised.
The link to the full article on my user page User:Faunus#A message that is sometimes esoteric, but never mysterious.
And to answer to AndyTheGrump, I know that Talk page is not a forum. Therefore, I limit myself to keeping the community informed here of what I publish on my own page and which brings together a certain amount of information that has never been analyzed. I hope, at the end of this work, which is nearing completion, to be able to come up with a strategy for rewriting this biography, respecting Wikipedia's criteria, but taking into account a few specifics that are not encountered elsewhere. But it all takes a lot of work. I get help with the final writing of my texts, to make them as clear as possible. Please feel free to come and discuss it on my own talk page. Thank you for your understanding. Faunus ( talk) 03:16, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
This article - presented as a biography of Prem Rawat - contains, in the lede, the infobox, and the body of the article, several statements referring to TimeLess Today, a limited liability company apparently founded by the Prem Rawat Foundation, which sells a mobile app to "present[...] Prem Rawat's message to people who are interested in peace." Nothing in this article tells us what this app does beyond that. Nothing in this article tells us why a mobile app is needed to receive messages about "peace". Nothing in this article gives us any indication as to whether Rewat himself has any meaningful direct connection with the limited liability company, or has had any input regarding what aspects of his 'message' are sold on the app. Nothing beyond content concerning raw statements about sales/downloads is sourced to any third-party source. Can anyone explain how this content referencing a commercial app can be seen as anything but promotional, and furthermore entirely off-topic for a biography? This article isn't about the Foundation, never mind a commercial spin-off selling some sort of app for some vaguely-Rewat-related purpose. Accordingly, unless independent sources can be found which tell us what this app does, and why it is of direct relevance to a biography, everything relating to this product needs to be removed. Wikipedia is not a provider of free advertising space. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 13:49, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
Please, don't do this unilaterally without having finished the discussion. This is not a good way to go. Your interpretation of the sources is incorrect. For an achievement which is personally owned, there is no need for proof other than ownership or affiliation. It is as if you could only quote someone's book if someone else had mentioned it. That does not make sense. What is the urge here? What is the risk or the non-neutral aspect here? Please revert to the previous version or I will. I don’t want to enter an editorial war, whatever the opinions or yours elsewhere. This is not my conception and Wikipedia rules about collaborative encyclopedia. Thank you for your corporation. -- Faunus ( talk) 17:45, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
I would have assumed that it was more or less self-evident that sources cited in a biography need to be actually discussing the subject of the biography in order to be relevant to the article in question. It appears, however, that a couple of contributors here think otherwise. [2] [3] Since it appears that neither contributor is willing to discuss the matter here, despite being requested to do so, I will give them one last chance to respond to a simple request to explain why they think that Wikipedia policy doesn't apply here, and that vague waffle about a 'foundation' which isn't the subject of this biography can somehow apply instead, before I raise the matter (and the tag-team edit-warring) elsewhere. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 20:41, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
I appreciate the interventions by Andy the Grump and Faunus concerning the recent insertion about Inside Peace.I hope that the addition of TPRF will resolve Andu the Grump's concern about relevancy. TPRF is one of Prem Rawat's signature initiatives and is featured in the article itself. I also appreciate the citation corrections by Faunus. It will take me some time to become familiar with the system. Richard.reive ( talk) 20:46, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
The 1971 Glastonbury Fayre at which he spoke (and on the poster for the film has star billing) was the second, not the first. The first was a rather low key affair. Wolstan Dixie ( talk) 20:27, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
A three-part question, relating to the inclusion of content concerning TimelessToday LLC, and an app this company provides, in the Prem Rawat biography:
(a) Should the article lede include content on the company and/or app?
(b) Should the infobox include the claim that Rawat is 'known for' the company and/or the app?
(c) Should the article body include content on the company and/or app?
AndyTheGrump ( talk) 17:27, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
In short, no to (a), no to (b), and probably no to (c), though I'm not entirely decided on the last question, and would be interested to see what others think. To summarise what seems not to be in dispute, the company has offered, for around three and a half years, an app which makes it possible for people to view media content (some free, some paid for) concerning Rawat. The limited third-party souces establish these very minimal facts, and it isn't unreasonable to conclude from looking at the company's own website that the media made accessible via the app does indeed concern Rawat himself, and that it promotes his ideas.
Beyond the basic facts though, the article singularly fails to tell the reader anything of real consequence about the app, despite appearing to claim that it has become a significant part of Rewat's life in the last few years. As it stood, [9] it told the reader, in the lede, that "TimelessToday, LLC, a California-based company for presenting Rawat's message, launched an app in December 2017. As of October 2020 the app has been installed over 100,000 times." And that was more or less all the article had to say on the matter. Content in the article body reaffirmed that the app has been available, and that it has been uploaded. The article fails to cite independent sources offering any sort of analysis, review, or commentary of the app itself, or of the media it makes accessible. In short, the lede tells the reader the app exists, but fails to provide any real indication of why it is of any significance in a biography of Rewat. Article ledes are supposed to summarise material in the body, in due proportion. They aren't intended as a means to impute significance to things not expanded upon later. Inclusion of this material in the lede is undue.
Likewise, the infobox told the reader that Rawat is 'known for' TimelessToday. A bald assertion, entirely unsupported by citation to any third-party evidence to back it up. Infoboxes should contain clearly-verifiable facts, not mere assertions. Inclusion of this statement in the infobox is undue.
I am inclined to question whether the article should even be discussing the company and/or app at all, given the issues raised regarding the lack of any third-party in-depth commentary regarding either. As far as I've been able to determine, such commentary seems not to exist in any obviously-accessible form. We seem to be telling readers that an app released just a few years ago has become a significant aspect to Rawat's life, but can't tell them why. About the only option we seem to be offering, if they want to find out about the app, and why it matters, is to visit the company's website, since we cite no third-party sources. And that to my mind is at least arguably promotional. Possibly a brief mention of the app might be merited, but if so, the article must not imply anything more than can be supported via sources - which seems to come down to the fact that over three and a half years or so, a free app has been installed over 100,000 times. Which isn't much of a statement to make, since it gives no indication of how many people are using it, or to what extent. Or what anybody thinks of the content. What exactly are we telling readers? Very little. What might the readers well think we are implying? Too much. Given the lack of useful sourcing, inclusion of material relating to the LLC and/or app seems undue, if it isn't outright promotional. Wikipedia's mandate doesn't extend to providing free promotion for apps providing paid access to media. At least, not while we can't say anything meaningful about them. And that applies regardless of the motivations of those providing such things. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 17:30, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
THe RfC has now expired, after attracting no comment from anyone beyond the two of us originally involved in the dispute. Clearly this is less than ideal, but since it seems evident that trying to continue this discussion with Faunus alone is likely to result in yet more round-in-circles arguments based on what appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding of multiple Wikipedia policies (as demonstrated by e.g. by the proposal concerning using "primary sources to update factual informations, such as the existence of a new medium, TimelessToday", and in multiple other places in this talk page), I am instead simply going to state here that if the disputed material relating to the TimelessToday app is restored to the article by Faunus without prior consensus, I will raise the matter at WP:ANI, where I will ask for a topic ban or other sanctions to be put in place until such time as Faunus demonstrates a proper understanding of the policies and purpose of Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 18:31, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
I have now removed the remaining content regarding the TimelessToday app from the article, per WP:PROMOTION: "Information about companies and products must be written in an objective and unbiased style, free of puffery. All article topics must be verifiable with independent, third-party sources... Wikipedia articles about a person, company or organization are not an extension of their website, press releases, or other social media marketing efforts." AndyTheGrump ( talk) 23:52, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Good day, I have made minor changes to update and simplify the periods in the History section:
1957-1970:to cover the period from Prem Rawat's birth to his decision to take his message beyond India;
1971-1975: to cover the period from Prem Rawat's arrival in the West to his establishment in the United States;
1976-2000: to cover the period of adaptation to a global audience;
2001-present: to focus on major developments, including The Prem Rawat Foundation (TPRF) and the Peace Education Program.
Some sections have been moved to fit in the new categories. No content has been altered.
I hope this meets with my colleagues' approval and welcome their input. Richard.reive Richard.reive ( talk) 15:04, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
I have reintroduced an abbreviated entry concerning the forum jointly sponsored by the Tutu Foundation and TPRF. The entry limits itself to mentioning the event, participants, and topics discussed. The source is credible. The entry also respects Wikipedia guidelines, notably NPOV (Neutral Point of View). I trust this is to my colleagues' satisfaction. Richard.reive ( talk) 02:34, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
I have found a citation from a primary source. According to the Wikipedia guidelines, "8/7/2021 Sources NOR-Primary, secondary and tertiary sources A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." I propose the following primary source: https://tprf.org/?s=tutu+foundation+&lang=en. To make the primary source clear, I propose adding a final phrase: "according to the official TPRF website. Richard.reive ( talk) 03:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography advises that "After the initial mention, a person should generally be referred to by surname only", and while I'm not personally a great fan of using a MoS to determine content on every occasion, this does seem to be a convention generally adhered to both on the English-language Wikipedia, and in more general practice, at least in more formal contexts. Accordingly, I'll ask here whether there is any particular reason why this article should refer to 'Prem Rawat' rather than just 'Rawat' in quite so many places? Clearly there are contexts (e.g. when also discussing other family members) where disambiguation is necessary, but it seems to me that this article has drifted rather far from the norm - and appears to have done so largely as the result of a single edit, back in February 2019. [11] As far as I've been able to determine, this change was never discussed, at least on this talkpage. This clearly isn't the most pressing concern in the article, but it would be nice to know whether rectification would be seen as appropriate, or if there is a particular reason why norms need not apply here. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 19:25, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
I propose updating information to focus more on the last two decades to reflect significant events in Mr. Rawat's work. This shift would bring a more current perspective to the article.
I also propose modifying information from the 70s to more general statements, with links and without eliminating the content. This would help to reduce distraction from increasingly irrelevant details of controversies half a century ago when Mr. Rawat first arrived in the West. Richard.reive ( talk) 16:39, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
At this point, I will make it entirely clear that I consider the edits carried out by Richard.reive today (31 August) to be partisan in multiple respects, and in at least one substantive case to be accompanied by an entirely misleading edit summary: see this specific edit [12] which removes an entire sourced paragraph concerning the wealth of Rawat, and the size of his staff. Parts of that paragraph are indeed repetition of earlier content, but not all, and the removal appears to result in at least one source no longer being cited over the matter. I am not going to revert the article for now, suggesting instead that Richard.reive instead self-reverts, and restores the article to the state it was prior to any edits made today, so we can sort this issue out before it becomes more fractious. If Richard.reive is unwilling to do so, and unwilling to seek agreement before making further substantive edits (which must of course comply with existing policy), it may be necessary to seek further outside input, as it seems pointless to engage in further round-in-circles discussions with people unwilling to accept that Wikipedia articles are based on coverage in external sources, and that significant events and well-sourced commentary are not subject to removal merely because single-issue contributors with an explicitly-stated agenda would prefer to cast the subject of the article in a better light. And I would have to suggest that such outside input might well lead to questions as to whether contributors seemingly more concerned with the image of the article subject than compliance with Wikipedia policy should be permitted to edit the article at all. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 16:25, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
I've now reverted the article to the August 24th version, per the discussion above. Thanks to Richard.reive for agreeing to this, and apologies to Grammarspellchecker, who's edits got reverted in the process - I'll take a quick look to see if they are still valid, and restore them if they are.
As I said above, I'm entirely open to discussing changes in the article, when sources back this up. It is however rather difficult to do this when many of the sources cited aren't easy to get hold of, so it may take a little time. I think the important thing is to discuss anything at all controversial first, and confine other edits to the article to minor stylistic fixes etc - Richard.reive has done a fair bit of this already, and the article looks better for it.
Looking at the article more broadly, I suspect that at least one it has been an ongoing source of difficulty on Wikipedia, beyond the obvious one that so many of those involved having a strong personal perspective (one way or another) on Rawat and his organisations, is that it hasn't always been obvious what this article is actually about. Is the topic just Prem Rawat himself, or is it also about those who have become his followers, and about the many organisations etc he has led, and the things that such organisations may be doing, beyond his own direct involvement? Clearly on cannot write a biography of Rawat without also discussing those he has influenced etc, but at the same time, normal encyclopaedic considerations should probably tend to set limits on how far 'off-topic' a biography should go.
Added to this is the difficulty of handling a biography of a living person where many of the events that brought him to public attention occurred many years ago, and where relatively little of any great substance seems to have been written about his more recent life. I do understand the concerns of those, sympathetic to him, who feel that emphasis on events in say the 1970s affect the balance of the article in negative ways. If this is true, however, I'd have to suggest it is a consequence of two things outside Wikipedia's control. Firstly, it was the events of the 1970s, with all the media hype and Astrodome appearances, that brought Rawat to public attention in the first place, and in my opinion it would do gross disservice to readers to omit all this, or to try to downplay the very mixed reactions that resulted. And second, following on from this, it was the public attention, along with a more general interest in 'new religious movements' of the time, that led to coverage of Rawat and his followers in academic sources etc. If Academia doesn't write on Rawat any more, we can't cite later perspectives on him, which might possibly take a more nuanced perspective, looking back from decades later. And Wikipedia, as an 'anyone can edit' encyclopaedia, has to work from published sources. There really isn't any alternative, other than a total free-for-all which would surely turn this article into a complete mess, of no interest to anyone but the participants. Wikipedia can't fix sourcing problems, and shouldn't try. It is what it is, flaws and all, and this biography is always going to be constrained by the limits of what Wikipedia can legitimately do. Maybe, someday, someone will write a biography of Rawat that does full justice to the man himself, and the events that surround him, but it isn't going to happen here. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 20:21, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
The following sentence was inserted in the Media section: In 2021, Hear Yourself appeared on the New York Times Best Sellers List for October 3, 2021. The citation was generated automatically (which I appreciate!). Richard.reive ( talk) 01:01, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
This source, [14] from the NYT entirely unacceptable as a means to justify inclusion of content on a book written by Rawat. It isn't a review. It says nothing whatsoever about the book. It is advertising copy, per the note at the top of the page: "When you purchase an independently ranked book through our site, we earn an affiliate commission.". Accordingly, I am going to remove the recently-added content sourced to the NYT. Find a review, or similar source, and the book may merit inclusion. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 01:03, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
Hello all! I'm trying to insert an info-box similar to the one in this article, including a photo and some publication data, into the German Wiki-Article. Can the person who has originally made the edit, or anybody who feels experienced with these things, please contact me? If I could copy some data, it would probably save me a lot of labor. Rainer P. ( talk) 12:32, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 50 | Archive 51 | Archive 52 | Archive 53 |
Please look at MOS:OPENPARABIO. The lead sentence should contain these components:
Most relevantly for the recent edits, are items 4 and 5. It is inappropriate for the lead sentence to only state "Prem Pal Singh Rawat (born 10 December 1957) is an Indian American also known formerly as Maharaji." This neither states what position or activity he is known for, not why he is noteworthy. If you wish to edit the lead sentence, kindly make sure that you change it to a sentence that follows the guidelines at MOS:OPENPARABIO. LK ( talk) 13:23, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 05:22, 17 April 2021 (UTC)Prem Pal Singh Rawat (born 10 December 1957, formerly known by honorifics such as Maharaji) is an Indian American who, after leading a new religious movement, the Divine Light Mission (DLM), when he was a teenager, evolved into an inspirational speaker transmitting his message of peace through organizations such as The Prem Rawat Foundation (TPRF). ...
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Lawrencekhoo ( talk • contribs)Prem Pal Singh Rawat (born 10 December 1957, formerly known as Maharaji) is an Indian American who heads the Prem Rawat Foundation. He is a former spiritual leader who lead the Divine Light Mission (DLM) (a new religious movement) ....
Prem Pal Singh Rawat (born 10 December 1957, formerly known by honorifics such as Maharaji) is an Indian American who, after being perceived as the leader of a new religious movement when he was a teenager, has imposed itself over time as an inspirational speaker transmitting a message of personal peace.
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:20, 17 April 2021 (UTC)Prem Pal Singh Rawat (born 10 December 1957), known as Maharaji when he was leading a new religious movement in the 1970s, is an Indian American who is transmitting a message of peace through organizations such as The Prem Rawat Foundation (TPRF). ...
@ Francis Schonken: I'm sorry to remind you that a consensus was reached on this new intro before your intervention and I invite you to refer to it. /info/en/?search=Talk:Prem_Rawat#Is_there_anything_to_be_done_on_this_page_to_make_it_acceptable?
So let's start from there because otherwise we don't move forward. Your interpretation of Wikipedia's rules is variable geometry, it seems to me. Once again, I am surprised by your untimely interventions, which once again lead us into an editorial war in which I refuse to participate. You know very well that by reintroducing all these Hindu terms which are no longer valid in India (and again this is to be verified for some), you are also reintroducing a cognitive bias emphasizing the origins of the person, which can be detrimental to him. I'm going to turn to a Wikipedia administrator for an opinion, because all this does not strike me as being fair.
Last point: by questioning the validity of this article in the context of a biography on Prem Rawat (classified under the Music section), I am not questioning the newspaper itself. Don't mix things up.
I will be relieved and very happy to see you resume the dialogue in an open and constructive manner as we had started to do. I did not hesitate to congratulate you when you solved the question of TimelessToday better than I had proposed. -- Faunus ( talk) 11:00, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Any objections to describing as "founder of The Prem Rawat Foundation"? LK ( talk) 17:02, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
Here is another proposal for the intro:
@ Francis Schonken: I come back to you to inform that I have done extensive background analysis work that led to the current problematic situation regarding PR's biography. I have also gathered many secondary sources of good quality which make it possible to realize how much better he is today perceived and invited to express himself on many media, as well as with various institutions which have understood the interest in his human-based approach and his eminently positive resources, when it becomes aware of his potential.
I have therefore created two sections to present the fruit of my work on my own talk page which I invite you to consult. Please do not vandalize it. User_talk:Faunus
Once you have learned about these new elements, I hope we can resume the dialogue in a more constructive way.
I would really appreciate you to show your good will and remove the gratuitous and unwarranted additions that you reintroduced in the first paragraph of the introduction. I remind you that just because Wikipedia is a space open to everyone, it doesn't mean that we can do anything about it.-- Faunus ( talk) 16:46, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Considering that you used the reinsertion of Hindu terms in the intro of the bio in retaliation for disagreement on another subject, I withdraw them to return to the version which had obtained a consensus on April 6 before your intervention. -- Faunus ( talk) 01:07, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
I have transferred “observations, analyzes and new sources available” to my user page User:Faunus and added a section #PR's message: remarkable consistency over time.-- Faunus ( talk) 17:34, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
I agree that half articles are in foreign language, but only half I will underline. For some of them, I provided the link to the translation. Remember that PR is working on a global level and, therefore, he is the subject of articles in different languages. At least, I still limit myself to articles in the Roman alphabet! I choose them among many in relation to the information they contain and their editorial quality. I don’t read Italian and Spanish either, but I used Google translation. I must confess I do the same sometimes when I work in English, because of my shortcomings. My English must be a bit baroque sometimes… Wikipedia advocates, to some extent, the use of foreign sources to better represent the diversity of cultures. Read this if you are interesting Wikipedia:Reliable sources and undue weight at section 2. -- Faunus ( talk) 19:31, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
In sum, regarding the lead sentence, whether there was some kind of consensus for it some time ago is quite immaterial: there is no consensus for its current version now. So, we can go back to the prior consensus, or try to find a new one at #Lead sentence or paragraph above. Failing to find a new consensus, will likely mean that this goes back to a previous (relatively broader) consensus. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 09:35, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
To @franchis schonken
Sorry if I am not following guicdelines correctly. I am very new at this! And this is my first contribution to Talk!
I just want to thank Francis Schonken for their guidance in formatting references correctly. It is not so easy.
I hope the latest insert concerning the MOU was referenced correctly. If not, please advise.
Keep well! Richard Reive Richard.reive Richard.reive ( talk) 17:03, 9 May 2021 (UTC) Richard.reive ( talk) 17:05, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
For those interested, I undertook an analysis of the Wikiquote page devoted to PR and the lessons that can be drawn from it. I have compared some of his earliest statements to others from these last ten years. Below is the introduction to this study, continued on my user page:
-- Faunus ( talk) 00:13, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
I propose to group the organizations into 2 sections: the old organizations (DLM and EV) the current organizations (TPRF, WOPG and TimelessToday). Are there any objections?-- Faunus ( talk) 17:29, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Just this message to inform readers of this page that I have started a new article on my user page, which addresses the issue of the quality of the sources which will include several chapters. The first one gathers general informations about the bibliographic page dedicated to Prem Rawat.-- Faunus ( talk) 22:43, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
Below the beginning of Part 2 on my user page, about Mike Finch's testimony:
The link to the full article Dr Finch’s strange book – Faunus ( talk) 09:59, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
For those interested, I published a third part at the chapter “The quality of the sources” which highlights some mistakes commonly made by sociologists in the 1970s, thus introducing a cognitive bias that we still have trouble getting rid of today. This should lead the Wikipedian community to take a step back from the hasty conclusions of this distant period. In any case, it is the hope that I have for the more or less near future.
The link to the full article From the trap of systemic analysis. Thanks for reading me and think about. – Faunus ( talk) 01:06, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
I have just added a new section to my analysis of Prem Rawat‘s page, which will highlight the relevance of his message. From there, anything that has been said and written a little lightly loses its interest in order to rewrite an honest, factual, up-to-date and non-defamatory biography. Below is the start of this article.
The link to the full article on my user page User:Faunus#An underestimated work because it is not academic – Faunus ( talk) 00:56, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
I inform the community of users who follow this page, that I had a second part to this section, based on a talk that PR does in November 8, 2019, during the celebration of his father's birthday. Just to give you a glimpse of it, below the beginning. But read it until the very end on my user page, you will be surprised.
The link to the full article on my user page User:Faunus#A message that is sometimes esoteric, but never mysterious.
And to answer to AndyTheGrump, I know that Talk page is not a forum. Therefore, I limit myself to keeping the community informed here of what I publish on my own page and which brings together a certain amount of information that has never been analyzed. I hope, at the end of this work, which is nearing completion, to be able to come up with a strategy for rewriting this biography, respecting Wikipedia's criteria, but taking into account a few specifics that are not encountered elsewhere. But it all takes a lot of work. I get help with the final writing of my texts, to make them as clear as possible. Please feel free to come and discuss it on my own talk page. Thank you for your understanding. Faunus ( talk) 03:16, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
This article - presented as a biography of Prem Rawat - contains, in the lede, the infobox, and the body of the article, several statements referring to TimeLess Today, a limited liability company apparently founded by the Prem Rawat Foundation, which sells a mobile app to "present[...] Prem Rawat's message to people who are interested in peace." Nothing in this article tells us what this app does beyond that. Nothing in this article tells us why a mobile app is needed to receive messages about "peace". Nothing in this article gives us any indication as to whether Rewat himself has any meaningful direct connection with the limited liability company, or has had any input regarding what aspects of his 'message' are sold on the app. Nothing beyond content concerning raw statements about sales/downloads is sourced to any third-party source. Can anyone explain how this content referencing a commercial app can be seen as anything but promotional, and furthermore entirely off-topic for a biography? This article isn't about the Foundation, never mind a commercial spin-off selling some sort of app for some vaguely-Rewat-related purpose. Accordingly, unless independent sources can be found which tell us what this app does, and why it is of direct relevance to a biography, everything relating to this product needs to be removed. Wikipedia is not a provider of free advertising space. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 13:49, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
Please, don't do this unilaterally without having finished the discussion. This is not a good way to go. Your interpretation of the sources is incorrect. For an achievement which is personally owned, there is no need for proof other than ownership or affiliation. It is as if you could only quote someone's book if someone else had mentioned it. That does not make sense. What is the urge here? What is the risk or the non-neutral aspect here? Please revert to the previous version or I will. I don’t want to enter an editorial war, whatever the opinions or yours elsewhere. This is not my conception and Wikipedia rules about collaborative encyclopedia. Thank you for your corporation. -- Faunus ( talk) 17:45, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
I would have assumed that it was more or less self-evident that sources cited in a biography need to be actually discussing the subject of the biography in order to be relevant to the article in question. It appears, however, that a couple of contributors here think otherwise. [2] [3] Since it appears that neither contributor is willing to discuss the matter here, despite being requested to do so, I will give them one last chance to respond to a simple request to explain why they think that Wikipedia policy doesn't apply here, and that vague waffle about a 'foundation' which isn't the subject of this biography can somehow apply instead, before I raise the matter (and the tag-team edit-warring) elsewhere. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 20:41, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
I appreciate the interventions by Andy the Grump and Faunus concerning the recent insertion about Inside Peace.I hope that the addition of TPRF will resolve Andu the Grump's concern about relevancy. TPRF is one of Prem Rawat's signature initiatives and is featured in the article itself. I also appreciate the citation corrections by Faunus. It will take me some time to become familiar with the system. Richard.reive ( talk) 20:46, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
The 1971 Glastonbury Fayre at which he spoke (and on the poster for the film has star billing) was the second, not the first. The first was a rather low key affair. Wolstan Dixie ( talk) 20:27, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
A three-part question, relating to the inclusion of content concerning TimelessToday LLC, and an app this company provides, in the Prem Rawat biography:
(a) Should the article lede include content on the company and/or app?
(b) Should the infobox include the claim that Rawat is 'known for' the company and/or the app?
(c) Should the article body include content on the company and/or app?
AndyTheGrump ( talk) 17:27, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
In short, no to (a), no to (b), and probably no to (c), though I'm not entirely decided on the last question, and would be interested to see what others think. To summarise what seems not to be in dispute, the company has offered, for around three and a half years, an app which makes it possible for people to view media content (some free, some paid for) concerning Rawat. The limited third-party souces establish these very minimal facts, and it isn't unreasonable to conclude from looking at the company's own website that the media made accessible via the app does indeed concern Rawat himself, and that it promotes his ideas.
Beyond the basic facts though, the article singularly fails to tell the reader anything of real consequence about the app, despite appearing to claim that it has become a significant part of Rewat's life in the last few years. As it stood, [9] it told the reader, in the lede, that "TimelessToday, LLC, a California-based company for presenting Rawat's message, launched an app in December 2017. As of October 2020 the app has been installed over 100,000 times." And that was more or less all the article had to say on the matter. Content in the article body reaffirmed that the app has been available, and that it has been uploaded. The article fails to cite independent sources offering any sort of analysis, review, or commentary of the app itself, or of the media it makes accessible. In short, the lede tells the reader the app exists, but fails to provide any real indication of why it is of any significance in a biography of Rewat. Article ledes are supposed to summarise material in the body, in due proportion. They aren't intended as a means to impute significance to things not expanded upon later. Inclusion of this material in the lede is undue.
Likewise, the infobox told the reader that Rawat is 'known for' TimelessToday. A bald assertion, entirely unsupported by citation to any third-party evidence to back it up. Infoboxes should contain clearly-verifiable facts, not mere assertions. Inclusion of this statement in the infobox is undue.
I am inclined to question whether the article should even be discussing the company and/or app at all, given the issues raised regarding the lack of any third-party in-depth commentary regarding either. As far as I've been able to determine, such commentary seems not to exist in any obviously-accessible form. We seem to be telling readers that an app released just a few years ago has become a significant aspect to Rawat's life, but can't tell them why. About the only option we seem to be offering, if they want to find out about the app, and why it matters, is to visit the company's website, since we cite no third-party sources. And that to my mind is at least arguably promotional. Possibly a brief mention of the app might be merited, but if so, the article must not imply anything more than can be supported via sources - which seems to come down to the fact that over three and a half years or so, a free app has been installed over 100,000 times. Which isn't much of a statement to make, since it gives no indication of how many people are using it, or to what extent. Or what anybody thinks of the content. What exactly are we telling readers? Very little. What might the readers well think we are implying? Too much. Given the lack of useful sourcing, inclusion of material relating to the LLC and/or app seems undue, if it isn't outright promotional. Wikipedia's mandate doesn't extend to providing free promotion for apps providing paid access to media. At least, not while we can't say anything meaningful about them. And that applies regardless of the motivations of those providing such things. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 17:30, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
THe RfC has now expired, after attracting no comment from anyone beyond the two of us originally involved in the dispute. Clearly this is less than ideal, but since it seems evident that trying to continue this discussion with Faunus alone is likely to result in yet more round-in-circles arguments based on what appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding of multiple Wikipedia policies (as demonstrated by e.g. by the proposal concerning using "primary sources to update factual informations, such as the existence of a new medium, TimelessToday", and in multiple other places in this talk page), I am instead simply going to state here that if the disputed material relating to the TimelessToday app is restored to the article by Faunus without prior consensus, I will raise the matter at WP:ANI, where I will ask for a topic ban or other sanctions to be put in place until such time as Faunus demonstrates a proper understanding of the policies and purpose of Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 18:31, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
I have now removed the remaining content regarding the TimelessToday app from the article, per WP:PROMOTION: "Information about companies and products must be written in an objective and unbiased style, free of puffery. All article topics must be verifiable with independent, third-party sources... Wikipedia articles about a person, company or organization are not an extension of their website, press releases, or other social media marketing efforts." AndyTheGrump ( talk) 23:52, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Good day, I have made minor changes to update and simplify the periods in the History section:
1957-1970:to cover the period from Prem Rawat's birth to his decision to take his message beyond India;
1971-1975: to cover the period from Prem Rawat's arrival in the West to his establishment in the United States;
1976-2000: to cover the period of adaptation to a global audience;
2001-present: to focus on major developments, including The Prem Rawat Foundation (TPRF) and the Peace Education Program.
Some sections have been moved to fit in the new categories. No content has been altered.
I hope this meets with my colleagues' approval and welcome their input. Richard.reive Richard.reive ( talk) 15:04, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
I have reintroduced an abbreviated entry concerning the forum jointly sponsored by the Tutu Foundation and TPRF. The entry limits itself to mentioning the event, participants, and topics discussed. The source is credible. The entry also respects Wikipedia guidelines, notably NPOV (Neutral Point of View). I trust this is to my colleagues' satisfaction. Richard.reive ( talk) 02:34, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
I have found a citation from a primary source. According to the Wikipedia guidelines, "8/7/2021 Sources NOR-Primary, secondary and tertiary sources A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." I propose the following primary source: https://tprf.org/?s=tutu+foundation+&lang=en. To make the primary source clear, I propose adding a final phrase: "according to the official TPRF website. Richard.reive ( talk) 03:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography advises that "After the initial mention, a person should generally be referred to by surname only", and while I'm not personally a great fan of using a MoS to determine content on every occasion, this does seem to be a convention generally adhered to both on the English-language Wikipedia, and in more general practice, at least in more formal contexts. Accordingly, I'll ask here whether there is any particular reason why this article should refer to 'Prem Rawat' rather than just 'Rawat' in quite so many places? Clearly there are contexts (e.g. when also discussing other family members) where disambiguation is necessary, but it seems to me that this article has drifted rather far from the norm - and appears to have done so largely as the result of a single edit, back in February 2019. [11] As far as I've been able to determine, this change was never discussed, at least on this talkpage. This clearly isn't the most pressing concern in the article, but it would be nice to know whether rectification would be seen as appropriate, or if there is a particular reason why norms need not apply here. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 19:25, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
I propose updating information to focus more on the last two decades to reflect significant events in Mr. Rawat's work. This shift would bring a more current perspective to the article.
I also propose modifying information from the 70s to more general statements, with links and without eliminating the content. This would help to reduce distraction from increasingly irrelevant details of controversies half a century ago when Mr. Rawat first arrived in the West. Richard.reive ( talk) 16:39, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
At this point, I will make it entirely clear that I consider the edits carried out by Richard.reive today (31 August) to be partisan in multiple respects, and in at least one substantive case to be accompanied by an entirely misleading edit summary: see this specific edit [12] which removes an entire sourced paragraph concerning the wealth of Rawat, and the size of his staff. Parts of that paragraph are indeed repetition of earlier content, but not all, and the removal appears to result in at least one source no longer being cited over the matter. I am not going to revert the article for now, suggesting instead that Richard.reive instead self-reverts, and restores the article to the state it was prior to any edits made today, so we can sort this issue out before it becomes more fractious. If Richard.reive is unwilling to do so, and unwilling to seek agreement before making further substantive edits (which must of course comply with existing policy), it may be necessary to seek further outside input, as it seems pointless to engage in further round-in-circles discussions with people unwilling to accept that Wikipedia articles are based on coverage in external sources, and that significant events and well-sourced commentary are not subject to removal merely because single-issue contributors with an explicitly-stated agenda would prefer to cast the subject of the article in a better light. And I would have to suggest that such outside input might well lead to questions as to whether contributors seemingly more concerned with the image of the article subject than compliance with Wikipedia policy should be permitted to edit the article at all. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 16:25, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
I've now reverted the article to the August 24th version, per the discussion above. Thanks to Richard.reive for agreeing to this, and apologies to Grammarspellchecker, who's edits got reverted in the process - I'll take a quick look to see if they are still valid, and restore them if they are.
As I said above, I'm entirely open to discussing changes in the article, when sources back this up. It is however rather difficult to do this when many of the sources cited aren't easy to get hold of, so it may take a little time. I think the important thing is to discuss anything at all controversial first, and confine other edits to the article to minor stylistic fixes etc - Richard.reive has done a fair bit of this already, and the article looks better for it.
Looking at the article more broadly, I suspect that at least one it has been an ongoing source of difficulty on Wikipedia, beyond the obvious one that so many of those involved having a strong personal perspective (one way or another) on Rawat and his organisations, is that it hasn't always been obvious what this article is actually about. Is the topic just Prem Rawat himself, or is it also about those who have become his followers, and about the many organisations etc he has led, and the things that such organisations may be doing, beyond his own direct involvement? Clearly on cannot write a biography of Rawat without also discussing those he has influenced etc, but at the same time, normal encyclopaedic considerations should probably tend to set limits on how far 'off-topic' a biography should go.
Added to this is the difficulty of handling a biography of a living person where many of the events that brought him to public attention occurred many years ago, and where relatively little of any great substance seems to have been written about his more recent life. I do understand the concerns of those, sympathetic to him, who feel that emphasis on events in say the 1970s affect the balance of the article in negative ways. If this is true, however, I'd have to suggest it is a consequence of two things outside Wikipedia's control. Firstly, it was the events of the 1970s, with all the media hype and Astrodome appearances, that brought Rawat to public attention in the first place, and in my opinion it would do gross disservice to readers to omit all this, or to try to downplay the very mixed reactions that resulted. And second, following on from this, it was the public attention, along with a more general interest in 'new religious movements' of the time, that led to coverage of Rawat and his followers in academic sources etc. If Academia doesn't write on Rawat any more, we can't cite later perspectives on him, which might possibly take a more nuanced perspective, looking back from decades later. And Wikipedia, as an 'anyone can edit' encyclopaedia, has to work from published sources. There really isn't any alternative, other than a total free-for-all which would surely turn this article into a complete mess, of no interest to anyone but the participants. Wikipedia can't fix sourcing problems, and shouldn't try. It is what it is, flaws and all, and this biography is always going to be constrained by the limits of what Wikipedia can legitimately do. Maybe, someday, someone will write a biography of Rawat that does full justice to the man himself, and the events that surround him, but it isn't going to happen here. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 20:21, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
The following sentence was inserted in the Media section: In 2021, Hear Yourself appeared on the New York Times Best Sellers List for October 3, 2021. The citation was generated automatically (which I appreciate!). Richard.reive ( talk) 01:01, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
This source, [14] from the NYT entirely unacceptable as a means to justify inclusion of content on a book written by Rawat. It isn't a review. It says nothing whatsoever about the book. It is advertising copy, per the note at the top of the page: "When you purchase an independently ranked book through our site, we earn an affiliate commission.". Accordingly, I am going to remove the recently-added content sourced to the NYT. Find a review, or similar source, and the book may merit inclusion. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 01:03, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
Hello all! I'm trying to insert an info-box similar to the one in this article, including a photo and some publication data, into the German Wiki-Article. Can the person who has originally made the edit, or anybody who feels experienced with these things, please contact me? If I could copy some data, it would probably save me a lot of labor. Rainer P. ( talk) 12:32, 21 May 2022 (UTC)