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Please help in finding a way forward. There is a proposal on the table by David to start improving the article from a compromise version. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
As said, I stand with the version I reverted to, as a starting point. That is as much "on the table". -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 21:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Unilaterally reverting to a 13 month old version without discussion and in the face of considerable opposition is not the way to do it. Momento ( talk) 21:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I'll try to make permalinks to currently half-broken references (inadvertent use of citation templates) - can someone help out, I've not so much experience with these templates, nor do I exactly know how to make the best of these references:
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 21:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I fixed some and tried to consolidate all the repeated ones. I think there are more but I have no more time. David D. (Talk) 22:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Large amounts of quoted text within citations are simply not needed, at all. A simple citation will suffice, to satisfy WP:V. These large quotes should be removed from all of the citations. Cirt ( talk) 19:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
This is just pure POV. We don't qualify simple facts from sources. Do not do that again. Lawrence § t/ e 20:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
Requesting that what is bolded in the next quote would be removed from the end of the first sentence of the third paragraph of the intro: "[...], his emphasis was on individual, subjective experience, rather than on a body of dogma."
Reason: this part of the criticism Prem Rawat has been receiving doesn't seem prominent enough for a lead section mentioning. There's nothing about it in the Criticism section, so I think we would better be without it in the lead too. If there's consensus for this then the editprotected template may be enabled as far as I'm concerned. Tx. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Francis Schonken and I are discussing the order of the lede. Everyone is welcome to join in here. In the meantime Francis could you stop adding new material to other parts of the article its distracting. The picture of the house and the links to anti-Rawat sites will never appear in this article because they are clearly excluded by BLP. Momento ( talk) 11:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
... in this edit. That is not acceptable. Articles need to get improved, not brought up to a version that misses the hard work, research and copyediting of many editors over a period of more than one year, and that includes responses to GA reviews and peer reviews. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
"Thousands" is incorrect. I had to go back somewhat over a thousand edits. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Further,
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
See my talk page for more discussion with Francis. As a compromise to losing what I consider to be good edits I have restored the version from Feb 2008 and included the criticism paragraphs that represent the most significant consensus I could find in the history, from May 2007. I think this is the best starting point. Other version criticism can be found at Talk:Prem Rawat/criticism. I have no horses in this race other than trying to keep this article from devolving into a massive fight. David D. (Talk) 20:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, no I stand with the version I reverted to. Let's take that as a starting point. It has 129 references. The other has only three quarters so many references. Several of the references from the last year are malformed through inadvertent use of citation templates. "Bloat" is equally true of the version I reverted away, etc... -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I think there's a difference between 53 kilobytes and 83 Kilobytes, don't you? Momento ( talk)
I'm seeing a lot of disagreement about the types of sources that are acceptable, so in case this helps:
Anyway, I hope this helps a little. SlimVirgin (talk) (contribs) 20:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Please see the new note at WP:ANI/3RR by Lawrence Cohen ( talk · contribs), and the note left by the same user to Momento ( talk · contribs)'s talk page. If Momento had not violated 3RR for the first report, or the start of the second, he certainly has by now. Cirt ( talk) 20:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Janice, regarding this edit by you [1] Melton wrote that Rawat claimed to be an embodiment of God. This should be described, not toned to such a degree that it is distorted and unrecognisable. Dowton held a somewhat opposing view. Andries ( talk) 21:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Melton cite says: "DLM and Rajneeshism are comparable in that in both, the Indian guru is the central object of devotion. While in the Christian tradition the spiritual master is only an intermediate between the individual and God, standing outside their personal relation, in both these new religious movements the devotee’s relation with the guru is considered identical to his relation with God. The guru is accepted as the manifestation and personification of God. His request for total surrender and complete trust is grounded in his claim of ultimate authority derived from his godliness." Janice Rowe ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Put simply this article should tell Rawat's past as it was, not as he or his followers want to revise it. Rawat consistently spoke out of both sides of is mouth about his Divinity. That is absolutely plain from what scholars have reported. On the one hand we have Momento, even in the face of clear logical defeat, arguing again and again that Rawat ONLY denied being God (see my discussion page to see the full extent of his illogical dissembling) and on the other we have a huge weight of evidence from Rawat's own mouth and reports from the time about how he posed as God Incarnate and had no qualms whatsoever in lording it over people and worse, intimidating people with his authoritative doom-laden threats. Rawat exploited his followers subsequent awe of him to fear to control his believers just like all power-corrupted cult leaders. It's undeniable. What also needs to be clear is that he and his organisation now have money and power and use it to silence critics whenever they can. The final thing that WILL BE APPARENT when this article presents the whole story (and not just a totally biased twisted selection) is that Rawat and his organisation are at great pains to blame others (notably past followers and former incarnations of his organisation that conveniently no longer exist) for Rawat's own mistakes. A perfect example of this has been the persistence of Momento's efforts to slant quotes to give the impression that Rawat was 'misunderstood' and blameless in followers perception of him his as 'The greatest Incarnation of God ever to have trod the planet' etc.
PatW (
talk)
22:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I am delighted to see newcomers having a go at trying to storm the battlements around this article. I strongly support their efforts. However I am very disappointed to see the same Rawat supporters still being so staunchly unreasonable here. Everything newcomers are challenging them on has been done before with a lot of effort and reasoning. It's just going over the same old ground. Above there is talk of there being "disagreement about the types of sources that are acceptable". We've tried to get this agreed before. Years roll by and Momento and Jossi absolutely will not accept sources other than ones they vet. They vehemently refused to allow quotes from Rawat out of magazines printed by Divine Light Mission magazines (which Rawat was the editor-in-chief of I think) and which I and some others found in many public libraries. Outrageous isn't it? Also, read the engagements I and others had with this Momento on my discussion page (Someone called Revera really won the argument over the 'Divinity' denials but would Momento accept that and allow some of quotes to be more balanced and in context? No way. My worry is that history will repeat itself and the predominant 'premie' editors here will just wait until the new wave of editors tire of getting nowhere and then they'll revert the article. I'd stake money on that's what'll happen. PatW ( talk) 02:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
It was about a year ago that I had arguments over sources such as DLM magazines etc. Actually a Rawat follower of more integrity, who was disgusted at the revisionism here, wrote to me privately offering to send me loads of these magazines- he/she wanted to remain anonymous and approved of my attempts to straighten facts out here. Eventually I did not take up the offer preferring to attempt to get some ground rules agreed upon here, and to point out that these magazines are readily available in libraries etc. I strongly recommend looking here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Prem_Rawat&diff=121699226&oldid=121579434 to see what a hail of panic the suggestion of even referring to such publications met. Since then I believe that a huge number of Divine Light Magazines are reproduced online. Can somebody provide a link please? The trouble is that anyone who picks quotes from them will be immediately accused of asserting a critical POV. I have no substatial time to engage here any more due to new business pressures. But I will try and help from time to time. Please do take the time to go and read that Talk page from late March/April 1997 to see what your up against and to so you hopefully are forewarned and better fore-armed in your fresh attempts to stop the rot here. PatW ( talk) 11:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
It's kind of amusing that you say that 'contradictory Rawat quotes started appearing' because that is exactly what needs clarification. The Collier quote is a good example. In the end Momento and Jossi relegated that quote to the footnotes. The specific quote being iterated at footnote no 31 in the article now:
"There are those who sincerely believe that Guru Maharaj Ji is the Lord of Creation here in the flesh to save the world. And then there are those who know him a little better than that. They relate to him in a more human way... to them he is more of a teacher, a guide, a co-conspirator in their personal pursuit of a more heavenly way of life..Guru Maharaji, though he has never made a definitive statement on his own opinion of his own divinity, generally encourages whatever view is held by the people he is with. Addressing several hundred thousand ecstatic Indian devotees, prepared for his message by a four-thousand-year cultural tradition, he declares, 'I am the source of peace in this world . . . surrender the reins of your life unto me and I will give you salvation.' On national television in the United States he says sheepishly, with his hands folded in his lap, 'I am just a humble servant of God."
As it is, the existing paragraph is carefully sculpted by the premies to give the ludicrous impression that Rawat had very little part in actually cultivating the belief in his divinity amongst followers. As is well-known and easily seen by the most cursory glance through his speeches from the time (as published in those DLM magazines I spoke of) the diametric opposite is true. From the following paragraph the impression is now given that he was more or less an innocent bystander and the stupid followers and his mother were to blame. This has been the party revisionist line for some time and Momento vociferously argued that people who believed Rawat was divine had misinterpreted his words through their own stupidity and that basically they were following their own agendas. Again absolutely the opposite was the case. ironically neither Momento or Jossi were around at that time to witness what went on. That is no excuse for revising the past and weasely implying that Rawat's followers simply adopted these ideas despite Rawat's protestations! Here's the current paragraph:
Several scholars wrote that Rawat claimed or suggested to be divine. [27][28]As a guru, he carried divine connotations for his followers, and despite Rawat's appeal to his followers to give up their beliefs and concepts, it did not prevent them from adopting a set of ideas about his divinity and the coming of a new age. Despite his denial in an interview of any belief that he was the Messiah, pre-existing millennial expectations were fostered partly by his mother, whose talks were full of references to her son's divine nature, as well as partly by Rawat himself who generally encouraged whatever view was held by people.[29][30][31]
As I said this is just going over the same old arguments nd I am pessimistic about this article changing as the followers are more committed to maintaining it to their weasely slant than others are to repeatedly take them to task over it. PatW ( talk) 18:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I hope you been having fun in my absence but a few errors seem to be creeping in. For instance, John Brauns desire to insert the name of James Randi's book into the text when no other book is mentioned is unacceptable. Momento ( talk) 21:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Levine's book, Page 96, mentions only Hare Krishna, Unification Church, And Children of God, in the context of the citation. I can provide a full citation if neede. Please correct. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
A criticism by Rawat's mother is considered so important that it is quoted in the lede. Aren't we obliged to add her to the list of critics in the criticism section, so that it reads, "Prem Rawat has been criticized by his mother, religious scholars, individuals related to anti-cult movements, articles in the press and media, and former members". Momento ( talk) 21:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
FYI,
Declaration of intent ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I was very pleased to see the number of editors in the COI debate who said the simple "Show me the evidence". It's very easy to say something but an entirely different thing to prove it. From long observation of your involvement here and other articles I have always found your editing honest and proper. Momento ( talk) 22:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm reading and that's the impression I get. I see incivility and hostility. Some of you editors should take this up and not allow yourselves to be trampled. -- Pax Arcane 02:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Needs to be summarized, as it stands it is way to long amd contains editorializing that is not needed. The mention of the Vice-president of India, would be a good addition, as India is the second most populous country, and the most populous democracy in the world. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
How is the best way to incorporate all the comments contained in Wiki quote. Momento ( talk) 00:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I still think that these two sections "Honors" and "Praise" need to be summarized and collapsed into one. Also, I do not believe that is best for NPOV to have separate sections on "Honors" and on "Criticism". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 12:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I just want to remind people about a discussion that might have got lost in the noise, see Talk:Prem_Rawat#Semi-arbitrary_break above.
You will also notice the absence of praise. WQe will need to include an honors section like here [ [3]]. And there's ample material here [ [4]] to include. Momento ( talk) 19:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm a bit confused, The Dalai Lama, section is "Awards and honors" not praise. Are they really equivalent? I looked at the Wikiquote about Prem_Rawat section but I only noticed one keys to the city award, most seem to be spoken praise. I see no reason to have some praise but awards are more concrete. Praise is often given out disingenuously, awards probably less so. David D. (Talk) 20:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- I found these here [ [5]] .Resolutions, proclamations ...(cut list for clarity)........Television Channels for Words of Peace, a weekly series featuring excerpts from Prem Rawat's message of peace. Momento ( talk) 22:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how notable resolutions and proclamations are, but a key to a city is probably worth noting. An award for a TV program? Letters of appreciation? Feel free to add them but i think they will look like a parody of a normal award and honors section from a wikipedia article. What about honorary degree's from presitigious universities? David D. (Talk) 22:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- PS. I'm not really thinking these honors should be included. I just want to illustrate the point that there are two sides to every story. People seemed to be outraged that followers of Rawat might edit this article. The fact that people who hate Rawat might edit is fine. I believe the best article sticks to facts provided by unbiased and independent experts. Momento ( talk) 22:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I would reiterate, are we really going to document every minor award? Parody still comes to mind when compared with similar sections in other articles, this alone should be good reason not to have such a stand alone section. David D. (Talk) 17:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Words of Peace (WOP) has received the "Honoris Causa" Award from the Brazilian Association of Community Television Channels for its "important contribution to imparting a culture of peace." It is the third award this international series, featuring Prem Rawat's message of peace, has received in Brazil. The program reaches 10 million viewers. [1] [2]
it is not contentious; it is not unduly self-serving; it does not involve claims about third parties; it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it; the article is not based primarily on such sources. Momento ( talk) 03:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
... refactoring this page! I have asked you three times to stop. This is most unhelpful! ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following from the article (refs nowiki'd):
Based on his personal experience with Prem Rawat, the sociologist Stephen A. Kent described Rawat's message as "banal" in the preface of his book From Slogans to Mantras, and later summarized the criticism of him in the 1970s by the countercultural left.<ref name="Kent2001">[[Stephen A. Kent|Kent, Stephen A.]] ''[[From Slogans to Mantras|From slogans to mantras: social protest and religious conversion in the late Vietnam war era]]'', Syracuse University press, 2001, ISBN 0-8156-2948-6 </ref>
I don't understand the point of this statement in the article. Why should it matter that a single person thought that Rawat's message was commonplace and pedestrian? If Kent later summarized criticism of Rawat by the countercultural left of 70s, why not report on those criticisms? Simply saying that Kent summarized it is saying little more than "criticism exists". Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vassyana ( talk • contribs) 21:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Couldn't agree more Vassyana. Kent went to one talk by Rawat and made his judgement. If his opinion is so important why not add some more of his jewels - " Consequently, I could not fathom what so many of my peers found inspiring about this kid, and I was wholly unprepared for what happened after the presentation concluded. Riding home with a friend that evening in the back seat of a car, I listened incredulously as my companions spoke glowingly about the message that they had just received. In fact, they were so moved by the guru's words that they made tentative plans to return the next day". Momento ( talk) 21:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't have an scholastic info. Lots of personal anecdotes from SA premies who were rounded up and harassed. There's a bit in Cagan's book about a premie(s) being jailed and tortured. Momento ( talk) 22:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
@Vassyana: you put the Kent reference back in, but forgot to link to the Wikipedia article we have about that book.
Note that the Kent quote was moved yesterday from the criticism section to the place where you removed it: if I remeber well, Memento moved, saying that was the appropriate place.
@All: No, I don't think we're still going to play the game of removing quotes from the article on "why should it matter [..]", "throwaway opinion", "[I have no argument]", "the author has a different background" etc reasons. That period has afaik finished.
I'm going to put the Kent quote back in, with the book and its author properly linked, but without the for most readers probably rather obscure "countercultural left" part – at least, for that part readers would need to see links that are not given in the article. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 23:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I've found a better reference that addresses the issue. So, this should be moot. Vassyana ( talk) 23:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The norm (I analyzed four weeks of Main Page articles, in November 2007) for the hybrid Harvard-style footnotes and references used in this article is:
(a) In the Footnotes section, provide only enough information (author last name and title of work, for example, or - more commonly, author and year of publication) for the reader to find the source in the References section. [The Footnotes section should also includes page number(s) and - arguably, sometimes - a quotation, of course.]
(b) In the References section, provide full information about the source (year of publication, publisher, ISBN, etc.)
That's not what is being done here - instead, the full citation is appearing in both the Footnotes and the References section. If everything the reader needs to know is in the Footnotes section, then the References section is simply duplication, and should be deleted. (Sources not actually cited in a footnote would be moved to a new, "Further Reading" section.) Alternatively, the information in the Footnotes section should be shortened, as is the norm for Harvard-style citations, with the reader, where interested, expected to check the References section for full details. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 12:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
OK Momento, care to explain the reason you took down Hunts comments? Do you want to explain what was flawed about the text? Until you do, this is the fourth thing that I will keep putting back up. Onefinalstep ( talk) 14:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, Momento, how would you like this paraphrased? Please give an example and we can try and work it out. Onefinalstep ( talk) 16:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Four deliberate distortions of Hunt's comment in only two sentences. But this info that Rawat was "supported by his followers" is undue weight since it has already been covered in the article with "Rawat became financially independent as a result of contributions from his Western devotees". I hope this makes clear the level of accuracy and NPOV that is expected in this article. And please note, I am not going to spend my time repairing other editors distorted and inappropriate edits. I'm going to delete them. Momento ( talk) 22:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so the main problem is:
Deleting distorted summaries is "helpful, productive, collaborative, and necessary". Here's another example Onefinalstep says "so that we make clear that Hunt only says that Rawat "appears" to live an opulent lifestyle". No, onefinalstep, Hunt doesn't say that he says "critics have focused on what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers". Hunt is reporting what the critics are doing, it is not his opinion. Momento ( talk) 23:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The point that Momento makes is a valid one. Hunt is not making statements about Rawat. That is, he is not claiming that Rawat did certain things, he is simply reporting that other people have said that Rawat did or said this. As a result, his research does not verify anything about Prem Rawat, it simply verifies that some critics said certain things. Big, big difference. It is simply a question of accuracy. If sources are going to be used, then they have to be used in an appropriate manner. Their findings can't be changed to suit the desires of a particular person to wish that they had said something different. Armeisen ( talk) 07:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This recent edit [6]: The quote from Hunt reads (Alternative Religions: A Sociological Introduction (2003), pp.116-7, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. ISBN 0-7546-3410-8):
Leaving his more ascetic life behind him, he does not personally eschews material possessions. Over time, critics have focused on what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers.
... but the text in the article editorializes this as: Rawat also turned away from asceticism, no longer denouncing material possessions, and, in fact, appeared to begin enjoying the material life that could be had in the western world. This transformation was funded in part by donations from the many follwers that he had collected. Please correct by staying close to the source and by using better grammar. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This is how the sentence stands now: (I think we should replace the word "denounced" with "shunned" as shun is a synonym of eschew.) Onefinalstep ( talk) 05:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Your suggestion is completely OR. And even an accurate quote doesn't belong in the "Westernization" section. And since Rawat being funded by followers is already mentioned in the "Coming of Age" section it doesn't bear repeating. Momento ( talk) 05:52, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
So Jossi, what exactly is your problem with it?? I don't understand man, you have to come with something better than "thats not what Hunt says". Onefinalstep ( talk) 02:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, Momento just arbitrarily deleted the Hunt paraphrase with no comment again. I gave him ample time to rewrite the Hunt article and even asked him to choose the words that needed to be changed (please see the "First Hunt Thread" section above on this page). He ignored my requests and simply did not respond. So, I rewrote it with his concerns in mind and placed the sentence back into the article. Then jossi complained about the grammar, which I tried to fix (haven't heard anything negative about it yet). Jossi also mentioned he was concerned with the source not being paraphrased accurately, and I responded that I had sourced the two claims with two different sources (I think he might have thought I attributed the money from followers to Hunt). In response to the deletion by Momento, I reverted (He didn't say why he deleted it except "per discussion" which I don't understand because, as I'm sure you all agree, we haven't come to a consensus on anything yet ... and in fact I am responding to the concerns so far so it's a fluid situation. Before I reach another 3RR, which I will before Momento does (even though I'm not sure he cares), can someone other than me politely tell him to wait till we sort this out? Onefinalstep ( talk) 05:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Just for the record, this is my comment from two days ago. Onefinalstep claims Hunt says:
"Prem Rawat turned away from asceticism, no longer denouncing material possessions. Critics alleged that his "opulent lifestyle" was largely supported by the donations of followers."
What Hunt actually said was - "Leaving his more ascetic life behind him, he does not personally eschews material possessions. Over time, critics have focused on what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers." Hunt doesn't says "he "no longer denounced material possessions", Hunt says "he does not personally eschew material possessions". Hunt doesn't say "critics alleged", Hunt says "critics have focused on". Hunt doesn't say "his opulent lifestyle", Hunt says "what appears to be his opulent lifestyle". And finally Hunt doesn't say "Rawat was largely supported by his followers", Hunt says" the critics argue that he was supported largely by his followers". Four deliberate distortions of Hunt's comment in only two sentences. But this info that Rawat was "supported by his followers" is undue weight since it has already been covered in the article with "Rawat became financially independent as a result of contributions from his Western devotees". I hope this makes clear the level of accuracy and NPOV that is expected in this article. And please note, I am not going to spend my time repairing other editors distorted and inappropriate edits. I'm going to delete them. Momento ( talk) 05:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Momento, I do not think that your last edits work that well: [7], mainly because unless there is some common ground found between editors actively working on the article, this will be a ping-pong effort with no traction towards a stable article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I've made an attempt to revise the statements to better reflect the source. [8] In the process, I removed Price from the reference tag, as she does not discuss his lifestyle. Vassyana ( talk) 10:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
May I ask those having a copy of these books to check whether the indicated page numbers are correct. The quote to the Cagan book refers to this footnote currently in the article: [9] (see also above: #Status of “Peace Is Possible”, where this quote is discussed). May we assume that quote is correct? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)Rawat also turned away from asceticism, no longer eschewing material possessions.(Hunt2003 p117) Rawat came to considerable wealth through donations(Cagan2007 pp.218-19) (Hunt2003 p117) and investments(Cagan2007 pp.218-19).
Not only that, but the "gifts" section of the former paraphrase was supported by a good reference. "According to critics" should not be inserted, because the living situation is verifiable by more than his critics views. The reference supporting the "donations" is sound. The rewrite should be reverted until consensus. I will concede that perhaps there should be a reference that after the gifts, he made good investments to continue his lifestyle. But this is covered in other sections. If you guys need to include it, that is fine, just don't rewrite without consideration. Onefinalstep ( talk) 01:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I propose that Momento is blocked for a short period from editing this article. Yet again, today, he has taken it upon himself to continue to delete a statement that is in discussion here and without comment. He has consistently done this, and refused to reach any consensus with the other editors here. The sentence is reasonable, and being discussed for concerns. I think Momento's actions on this and other areas of the article should show a clear reason for this action. Onefinalstep ( talk) 21:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This discussion page has quite literally become the length of a book! 50,000 words = a 200 page pocket book. Is it time for an archive of sections that haven't been updated in a few days, or at least a clean up and consolidation of duplicated material? 82.44.221.140 ( talk) 15:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I just had a look at User:MiszaBot/Archive HowTo. How about setting up Miszabot with these variables:
{{User:MiszaBot/config |algo = old(7d) |archive = Talk:Prem_Rawat/Archive_%(counter)d |counter = 29 |maxarchivesize = 250K }}
Anyway I also saw someone started archiving, and some sections are going to be brought back by me, for unconcluded discussions, or discussions continued in other sections, that pre-suppose the older section still to be at hand (note that I objected to fragmentation of discussion - scattering the fragments over multiple pages is still less useful). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:13, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
{{User:MiszaBot/config |algo = old(5d) |archive = Talk:Prem_Rawat/Archive_%(counter)d |counter = 29 |maxarchivesize = 200K }}
(BTW, you had archived a section which was still edited yesterday ( #Concern regarding place/time incoherence of references) - no hard feelings, just an argument to have this handled "neutrally" by bot.)
But on the 7 days I think we agree. Any one else second thoughts? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
In my proposal I used the "default" of 250K, as it is in the example of the bot's "how-to" page. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I would like to collapse several threads that are dealing with the same issue into one section each respectively, with subsections as appropriate. Main categories that could be stagnate: "The Photo", "The Lede", "Hunt", "Kissing of Feet", "Time Article", "References", and all the discussion over the article about Jossi, his statement of purpose, and everyone's comments who were "disturbed".
I've regrouped recent talk about the Criticism section below under #Discussion on "Criticism" section from 8 February 2008 -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 11:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Previous discussion can be found (for instance) at:
(and other sections of Archive 28)
I've regrouped the "Criticism section" talks from 8 February 2008 here, as the time sequence of these sections had become disturbed, but primarily to avoid their general scattering (leading, for instance, to redundant repeats of same arguments). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 11:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Now I'm definitely going to revert to the late January 2007 version: that version had a "reception" section (not a "criticism" section), containing positive as well as negative criticism, completely conforming to the recommendations of Wikipedia:Criticism, the "criticism" maintenance template can go in the same revert. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 23:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I have to say I'd prefer to improve what we currently have here rather than revert back a year. The GA review improved the Jan version significantly. Do we really want to lose those good edits? David D. (Talk) 00:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Regarding David D.'s opinion, see also this conversation:
[...] I still defend the version I reverted to [...] -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC) [10]
[...] what you suggest might well be best. [...] David D. (Talk) 17:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC) [11]
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 18:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't have a position or stake in this controversy, and am encouraged by the direction of the most recent changes. So, moving forward, I have some suggestions for relatively minor edits in the Criticism section for clarity and readability.
1) 3rd paragraph (starting with "Kranenborg") -- can we give him a first name, and a brief description of who he is or what his credentials are? Ditto Melton in the 6th paragraph. Is Kranenborg speaking as a Christian leader to an explictly Christian audience? The wording implies so; it might be useful to say so if true or reword if not.
2) The 4th paragraph (Stephen Kent) is awkwardly worded. I bet it was Kent's comment about Rawat that was in the preface of his book, not his experience with him as is written. "on him in the 1970s" would more typically be phrased as "of him...". "described" vs. "treats" is a tense mismatch. Here's a proposed rewrite: "Based on his personal experience with Prem Rawat, the sociologist Stephen A. Kent described Rawat's message as "banal" in the preface of his book "From Slogans to Mantras", and later summarized criticism of him in the 1970s by the countercultural left.[12]"
3) Last paragraph -- "An author initiated in Knowledge" -- Why not use the name, which appears to be Jeanne Messer? Also, "initiated in Knowledge" seems unnecessarily jargony. I don't know exactly what being "initiated" means or entails. How about "Jeanne Messer, an author trained in Rawat's meditation techniques,..." (or Knowledge techniques, or Knowledge system)? Msalt ( talk) 08:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I realize that I have the actual power to edit this section without a Talk page discussion, but given the heat surrounding this page in general and this section in particular, I think it's a better idea for me to wait until tomorrow at least before going ahead with these, though I consider them content-neutral. Msalt ( talk) 09:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Now that we've cleared up the issue of the photo and the links, it's time to clear up the criticism section. BLP policy is clear = "Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one". It is obviously disproportionate to give each critic a paragraph since nowhere else in this article is any other source quoted at length. So I will summarize the criticism. Momento ( talk) 10:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I've treated this section like the rest. That is summarizing the scholars rather than quoting at length. Momento ( talk) 10:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I am fine with a Praise section as long as the criticism section gets the same respect. Onefinalstep ( talk) 16:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Alright, here is a paragraph that is being deleted over and over. Lets try and work this one out here on the discussion. Momento, please detail your problems with this entry and be specific.
Per the above #Re._.7B.7Bcriticism-section.7D.7D, but I'll give it more respect to the non-footnoted sections. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Francis, your last edit removed some material that was being discussed, and about which sources were being found. For example, see Talk:Prem_Rawat#Sources_2 ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
What is going on, Francis? Your input here is welcome, but doing this for the third time is not helpful. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:46, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe I said above that I think Francis is right in this matter. Relata refero ( talk) 23:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
As has been remarked above (in a section on another topic), it's not such a geat idea for things that already have a separate section on this talk page, to just ignore it and start another section on the same topic — especially when the discussion in the previously existing section is still active.
For instance, Jossi's revert (the one I re-reverted) is already discussed above in #Re._.7B.7Bcriticism-section.7D.7D. The criticism section is a problem, see for instance also above #Criticism section. The version I reverted to doesn't have that problem. And solved the problem far better than the solutions proposed above at #Criticism section. And I explained why in the section some sections above that section, #Re._.7B.7Bcriticism-section.7D.7D, and there I also explained how I would act to address that problem. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 18:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Please not that has been discussed already years ago and then I argued that criticisms and praise from relevant experts in the field is okay in the article. An analogy, if George W. Bush likes the star wars movie then we do not mention his in the article star wars because he is not relevant expert in the field or a notable journalistic soource. Andries ( talk) 21:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
While we're integrating sections, the "personal life" section seems unnecessary. Is there a point to the section that I don't understand? Isn't the whole article about his life? We mention Rawat's arrival to the U.A. chronologically, so why wait to the end to mention his citizenship? We mention family relations throughout, so why leave mention of his wife to the end? All of the material can be placed chronologically. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Please do not remove cited material, as happened here, which was then restored here. Discuss here. Lawrence § t/ e 19:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Well let's hope we can get some more experienced editors as the Time magazines articles cited are from after Rawat came to the West and therefore don't belong in the section Cirt puts them. [8] [9]. Momento ( talk) 19:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
"don't belong in the section Cirt puts them" - I did not "put" anything there. It was already there. I was merely undoing Momento ( talk · contribs)'s removal of cited information, that he had removed with a blatantly false edit summary. Cirt ( talk) 19:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
This latest series of edits by Momento ( talk · contribs) seems to use selective quoting in a weasel wording style, and also removed one of the 2 TIME citations, again. Cirt ( talk) 20:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I thought there must have been another Time magazine intended since the ones cited clearly said 1972 and 1975. Please be more careful. Momento ( talk) 20:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Please be consistent Lawrence. You said "That's a house keeping task then, to move it to a different section." and so I moved the cite to the appropriate section. Now you're complaining about it and have put a quote about Rawat in the US into the section of Rawat in India. My head's spinning. Momento ( talk) 20:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Is it possible for inclusion? -- Pax Arcane 02:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Can some regular editors add relevant material from the following references to the article ?
I am editing the Coming of Age section because it contains unnecessary and non-encyclopedic detail, specifically, a list of a dozen cities Rawat visited on his 1980 tour. Before reverting this edit again, please justify why this detail belongs in the article. I know of no other comparable speakers that receive this kind of treatment in Wikipedia or any other encyclopedia; compare Tom Peters, Robert Bly, Deepak Chopra, etc. Are we now going to list band tour dates in their articles? And why does it matter that Rawat spoke on "newly purchased land"? Msalt ( talk) 20:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the statement about the positive effects of meditation. It doesn't really fit into a section on Prem Rawat's teaching, and could constructively be placed in a section or a new entry on the benefits of meditation. Armeisen ( talk) 07:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Agree. Momento ( talk) 07:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I have taken out "...kissed his feet when they were in his presence". Redundant and unencyclopedic. They could not kiss his feet when they were not 'in his presence."
Jossi what do you think about this? Come on, you're kind of referee here. Why do you think someone would want to change that wording? Do you approve of this sort of logic? PatW ( talk) 12:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
PS. It's also totally transparent that Jossi pretends that he thinks your arguments to cut out the lingo are 'good' (see his mystifying non-reasoning above) because actually he supports the POV pushing you are doing. This place has more weasels per square inch than Toad Hall! It's quite dizzying. PatW ( talk) 11:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Even the most respected scholars (with the exception of wishful-thinking premie academic Mr Geaves) such as Mark Jurgensmeyer, are very clear that all these traditions are shot through with hypocrisy and prosaic power struggles and their books do not indulge in nostalgia or display sympathy for the beliefs of these traditions. To the contrary they generally offer de-mystifying, prosaic explanations for the sociological phenomena around this culture. I agree that we need better understanding of the Indian Cultural roots of Rawatism but I don't think that the way to go about it is to dress it up in respectable or sympathetic terms. I think it is a very bad start to be cutting out the 'informative' lingo from those times. Those times were replete with idiosyncratic colourful lingo and where they were described in such terms it should be left alone. There's nothing immature or sensationalist about retaining those descriptions - in fact it's important that you don't to try to justify or add respectability through any contrived 'mature or mellow' paraphrasing. ' PatW ( talk) 12:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I am sympathetic to the attempt to tone the language down. We are dealing with a journalistic source here. A scholar of religion with some understanding of Indian religion would probably not have written that way. There is an undeniable Western cultural bias at work in the Time article, trading on the shock factor a Western audience feels about this kind of gesture.
Now, in India, touching the feet of a respected person is an everyday gesture. It is, and that is very difficult for Westerners to "get", no big deal. It's the West that has a problem with the gesture, because to the Western mind it feels masochistic and/or sexually loaded. The gesture has no such connotations in India. Translating it into a Western context, it is roughly equivalent to a handshake combined with a polite bow or curtsey, or, in a religious context, kneeling in front of your vicar and having his hands placed on your head. Staying with the Christian context, kissing the feet might be comparable to kissing the ring of a Cardinal. The thrill of deviancy that the Western mind feels upon reading such a description, and which such a description is designed to evoke, is really the result of cultural ignorance. To want to perpetuate this kind of thrill in Wikipedia is cheap.
We are taking due care in Wikipedia to call prostitutes "escorts" when that is how they wish to be referred to. We refer to male-born transsexuals as "she", out of basic human respect for the individual. We take care to ensure that we call ethnic or religious groups by the names that they prefer to use for themselves, rather than the terms that outsiders and critics would use for them. We are certainly not in the business of filling our articles about such groups with abusive terms that have been used about them. To me, to insist on this kind of sensationalist description of another group's religious practice is also a subtle kind of abuse. It flies in the face of everything that Wikipedia is about.
It is not much different from citing a source that says "negroes have huge, protruding lips". It is true, in a way, but still abusive, stupid and disrespectful. Mutatis mutandis, I suggest the same applies here, in a religious context. So I propose we lose the cultural bias and stick with a neutral description of the actions described. -- 172.189.122.83 ( talk) ( Jayen 466) 22:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Listen Jayen, You are simply imagining that this report is offensive to premies. The fact that you and they are demonstrating offence is what is inappropriate and questionable. There is a fine line between excluding genuine criticism and unnecessary use of bigoted reports which of course one has to be aware of, but in this case it is simply not bigoted or critical. The only word which has a sensational tone is 'literally' (which is kind of superfluous). Suddenly according to all of you, saying 'when they were in his presence' is deemed a bigoted comment rather than an innocent illustrative one . Why? Furthermore to cite the expression 'Lotus Feet' is also not condescending at all. That is what premies called his feet quite openly in those days. The fact seems to be that you sympathise with the premies new-found embarassment and desire to distance themselves from this culture which they once embraced, and you are prepared to let them tone down perfectly respectful descriptions of their past here. I question that an encyclopaedia is the place to support revisionism under the guise of wanting to not offend the sensitivities of a religious group in an inappropriate way. Next you'll argue that Wikipedia shouldn't report Scientology's former teachings about UFO's and disembodied spirits ec. because it's rude to talk about things they now are shy about. An encyclopaedia should not pander to the desire of reformed religious groups or any other groups desires to change history. By citing history you are not approving or endorsing it. To cut out the word 'prostitutes' from historical quotes because the derogatory meaning is now unacceptable is absurd. Also to cut out relevant, illustrative quotes where reporters use other derogatory terms such as 'Nigger' is also doing a disservice to all. Contrary to your opinion, there is NO merit in 'toning down' the language of the past. The present is a different matter. If premies don't want to be called 'devotees' now we naturally don't do that but we should not change the language of quotes from the time that refer to 'Maharaji's devotees'. Same with escorts, transsexuals, you name it. PatW ( talk) 11:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I do take your points and can live with the wording since it is not a direct quote. Of course it would be heinous to use the quote itself and change the wording. The Guardian newspaper here in the UK would love to hear that Wikipedia administrators approve of that as there quite a bit of criticism of Wikipedia there. I suppose what bothers me is that generally the 'colour' is so rigorously toned down so as to effectively not attract interest. I want the opposite of the 'strangulation' of the article by anti-cult sentiment. I want the encyclopaedically interesting facts to be presented here that naturally attract interest to Rawat as it is a subject that I would like to see fairly discussed and yes, questioned very publicly and openly. What I do not approve of is when articles about minority religions are controlled by themselves. This article probably has historically swung from a critical bias to the opposite extreme. The trouble is with cults is that when the facts about them do become fully known then anti-cult sentiments will naturally arise - why? because the public naturally disapproval of the abuses and evils that go on behind their closed doors. So if this article does become one day 'strangled' by public reaction then I won't be so surprised. But I agree that we should start by giving Rawat a very fair chance to account for himself. (Which is effectively what is happening via his followers here). Must dash. PatW ( talk) 12:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Jayen writes:If someone does something for love, there will always be those who claim that they must have been duped and brainwashed. As though people had no riches to give, and giving always made you poorer rather than richer. But there you go.
Jayen, how many Wikipedia editors have been truly damaged by their voluntary work? How many people, on the other hand, who follow charismatic religious leaders later claim to have been damaged, or (as in the case of Jim Jones' followers) were significantly damaged? ie. they followed their leader to the grave. I hope you can see the distinction. I lovingly served Rawat from age 17, (1974) lived in his ashrams and dedicated my life to him as he recommended. My claims about the extent to which his teachings were unhealthy are well-considered and I don't appreciate the insinuation that people who make claims about having been brainwashed probably don't understand the principal that 'giving makes you richer.'
Your comment could appear very 'sweeping' and condescending towards those people who HAVE been seriously affected by their giving. I know of very genuinely motivated premies who gave their entire incomes and inheritances to Rawat and who now regret it. Others like myself simply gave our time and gave up things that Rawat recommended we should - like having a career and relationships etc. That was the rules of joining his Ashram. There are plenty of people who in retrospect feel that Rawat has actively avoided responsibility for encouraging that level of 'giving' and that modern day premies help whitewash the period during which he demanded very considerable sacrifice. The bulk of the criticism towards Rawat is from people who have discovered that there was a good deal of hypocrisy and coverup from Rawat which indicated that he was cynical towards their genuine commitments and sacrifices.
Since you confess to concern that premies are not offended here, perhaps you could extend that concern towards the victims of Prem Rawat too.
Ruminton is excited about your 'goodness'. I shouldn't be too flattered. There is nothing good if you lean towards casting criticism towards Rawat as flippant or support any viewpoint that former premies were not genuinely motivated and have missed the benefits of 'Knowledge' as a result.
PatW (
talk)
13:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Michael Dettmers' October 22 post disclosed that in order to work around Maharaji, and to be in his inner circle, a premie had to be 'X rated'. This meant that the premie had to be told that the rules that applied to ashram premies did not apply to Maharaji. In other words, Maharaji's behavior was not to be questioned and was to be kept secret. The premie had to accept this unquestioningly, and if s/he showed hesitation, they would not be allowed to serve in this capacity. Michael said that he interviewed many premies in order to determine if they met the X rated qualifications. I was very disturbed by this revelation and have pondered it repeatedly. Last night I finally understood why this information so affected me. As many of you know, I was one of the attorneys who defended Larry Layton at both of his trials -- he was the only person charged with a crime in the US related to the mass suicide at the Peoples Temple compound in Jonestown, Guyana. I learned everything there was to know about how Peoples Temple operated and how Jim Jones was able to convince his followers to administer poison to their children and then kill themselves at his command. What struck me so much about Michael's post about 'X rating' the people close to Maharaji is that this is exactly the behavior that happened in Peoples Temple with those around Jim Jones. Jones was presented to his congregation as a messianic, God-like figure, who was the embodiment of Christ, and who behaved (supposedly) in a Christ-like manner. In fact, like Maharaji, Jones drank to excess, abused drugs, had numerous mistresses amongst the congregation, perpetrated physical and emotional abuse upon those close to him and increasingly demanded larger and larger displays of devotion to him. In Maharaji's case, he demanded more ostentatious material donations as a demonstration of his followers' devotion. Jim Jones did not seek material assets -- he demanded that church members display their unquestioning dedication by carrying out his orders -- by doing things such as engaging in a physical altercation in a weaker family member in front of the entire church. Regular members of the congregation went along with these demands because they believed that Jones was living a Christ-like existence - a lie perpetuated by those closest to Jones. Those lies played a large part in why over 900 people went to Guyana and ultimately gave up their lives to Jim Jones. I can't help but see the similarity between the behavior of those closest to Jones and those close to Maharaji who were 'X rated'. Of course, Maharaji never took his flock to a remote jungle location in order to isolate them, no suicide ritual was practiced and then actually put to use. But, the way these organizations were run at the top is chillingly similar, and was designed to achieve the same result: allowing the leader to behave in a manner diametrically opposed to the rules set out for his followers, and investing those who perpetuated this lie to those below with power and prestige they would lose if they told the truth. Had those around Jones not perpetuated his lies, many people might not have followed him to the jungle and there have met their demise. In the same way, those around Maharaji who agreed to shield others from the knowledge that Maharaji did not have to play by the rules he insisted the rest of us follow on pain of forfeiting our souls, allowed people to give up their lives to ashrams and other devotional activities which were nearly the functional equivalent of suicide. People lost the best years of their lives based on this fraud. That is what I now grasp from Michael's post. I make this point because I think that it is time that the people who were and are around Maharaji realize the broad consequences in the lives of other premies of their blind devotion to Maharaji.
The sinister overtones absolutely were/are there. Sorry I simply cannot agree. There's really no hidden tactic here from me either, I swear. My inclusion of this quote was simply in response to Jayen who basically said there was no comparison with Jim Jones when there apparently was although not to the extent that Rawat advised people to kill themselves- he just advised people to surrender their lives to him. So his effect on people was admittedly not anywhere near as catastrophic - although it was arguably sometimes destructive. I should maybe add that quite a number of people suffered mental breakdowns under the pressure of his teachings. The point is that there are comparisons but not in every area. There are important differences too. However, I remembered talking to Michael Dettmers once who told me that at the time of the Jonestown tragedy there was real concern at the DLM top level not to be perceived as another similar cult. I personally observed and made the judgement that there were similar manipulative dynamics going on in Maharaji's court (as it were) and I happen to think Marianne Bachers put it very well so I quoted her. One other thing, although you keep saying the Ashram lifestyle was a choice. It really wasn't if you had surrendered your choices as Rawat recommended. The whole danger of such systems where there is a supposedly Divine person in control is that vulnerable people are subtly coerced to 'surrender' to doing what the Master recommends instead of what they want to do. Prem Rawat REPEATEDLY demonised the mechanism of following your own mind by literally saying your mind is your number one enemy. The mind, he taught, would do anything to stop you surrendering to Maharaji and the only way to not fall foul of it's wiley deceptive ways was to OBEY HIM. Prem Rawat used to scream and yell at us about the value and urgent need for us to surrender to him and the fast track way he proposed was the ashram. At one time the most common word in his speeches was 'Surrender.' Would you say that the Pied Piper who led children into a cave was innocent and it was the childrens fault for not exercising their choice in the matter? I think I should stress here that it was a significant part of the teaching of Knowledge to approach Rawat with 'the heart of a child' so from the outset one was effectively 'inspired' into abdicating one's normal adult choice mechanisms. What you are failing to acknowledge is that with Prem Rawat there were enormous suggestions made from him as to what choices followers should make and an array of now transparently cultic power games at play, such as having a hierarchy of privileged devotees who were given another secret to keep. The X-rating thing was not as you say "public knowledge, light-hearted, and about simple confidentiality" (nobody I know knew of all this till it was later revealed on the internet and even then few could bear to believe it) Contrary to what you suggest it was absolutely effective in concealing behaviours which Rawat knew would be potentially confusing to premies. Also I personally think that being sworn to secrecy is key to the way the whole Knowledge/Master thing works. Knowledge being the most obvious precious secret that all premies promise not to reveal. Having guarded secrets makes people feel special and also creates ties to the person to whom the promise of secrecy is sworn. And, as we well know (and that is supported by Colliers book which is used here) Prem Rawat spoke out of both sides of his mouth about his Divinity depending on who he was addressing...To reporters he would say "I am not God' whilst he would dress up as Krishna in front of premies and say stuff like 'Guru is greater than God . If you want to be proved wrong on this I would be happy to do so on my talk page BUT if you go there you will see I have already had this argument with Momento there who so conspicuously lost the argument it's not really worth going there again in my opinion. PatW ( talk) 19:56, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh and...partly why I write so much back at people here is because some of the arguments that are thrown my way appear to me so tortuous and inaccurate that to not make some attempt to clarify would be simply immoral. I cannot bear to see the wrong impression being given. This article purports to report on a large part of my life which was inextricably tied up with Rawat and which I see here being falsely represented. Maybe I should just leave it to you guys to argue with truly impartial types. To be frank they seem to be doing a much better job of separating fact from fiction than any ex-premies have ever done. Hooray. Obviously Jossi and now you find my honest comments utterly unwelcome. PatW ( talk) 20:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm wondering why, before I just added the word, there was not a single instance of the word "cult" in the article main body (it appeared only in references) despite repeated and numerous media references to the movement as a cult, or in the context of a cult? Lawrence § t/ e 15:41, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Section one surveys the broad range of issues surrounding the topic of "cults" (note the scare quotes), the popular label given to alternative religions [...] a number of false stereotypes exists about them. [...] Section II discusses approximately twenty of the older, more established nonconventional religions. Section III gives an in depth treatment of the prominent and growing New Age Movement. [...] Section IV is the heart of the volume. It discuses sixteen of the most significant "new" religions which have emerged in America. (Introduction)
The term "cult" is a pejorative label used to describe certain religious groups outside the mainstream of Western religions. [...] Social scientists tend to be the least pejorative in their use of the term. They divide religious groups into three categories,: churches, sects, and cults. [...]Cults represent a force of religious innovation within a culture. (Section 1, p.1)
I object to this edit. It removes content that does not need to be removed. The edit summary says "removed excessive, unnecessary and non-encylcopedic detail". If you believe so, please discuss. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Discussion above has shown this info to be both controversial, disputed, and as it is only sourced to self-referential, self-published sources as discussed above, it should not be in the article. That is, unless it could be sourced to some better WP:RS/ WP:V secondary sources not affiliated heavily with the subject of the article himself. Cirt ( talk) 16:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I think it is highly unbalanced, to say the least, to report Mishlers - admittedly unsupported - appraisal of a predominantly money-grabbing leadership in the "Critisism"-section, simultaneously deleting Cagan's statement on the origin of Rawat's income, calling it contentious, while casually overlooking the fact, that Rawat does not charge people for being taught the techniques of Knowledge, or seeing him at a program. Not only unbalanced, but plainly manipulative, hopefully unintentionally. Please respond, whoever.-- Rainer P. ( talk) 20:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
This issue is being discussed in the section #Did Donations Make Him Rich. Please discuss this up there. I will quote your comment in that section and reply there. Msalt ( talk) 21:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see the necessity to move to another section, as it is being discussed here. And I do not feel my observation has been responded to. I rather feel slightly patronized. Anyway thanks for trying.-- Rainer P. ( talk) 22:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I can't find anything there that relates to my request. Is it yet possible that you do can not communicate? Amazing experience! Is there anybody else out there?-- Rainer P. ( talk) 08:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Does Maharaji benefit from the activities of any of the organizations promoting his message? No. Most of the organizations promoting his message are non-profit and by law cannot provide a financial benefit to Maharaji or any other individual. The financial records of these organizations are impeccable in this regard, and absolutely no money flows from these organizations to him or his family. He receives no benefit from the activities of the not-for-profit organizations supporting his work and no income from attendance at his addresses nor from the sale of materials.He supports himself and his family through private means. [10]
The dissemination of his message of peace is made available in more than 90 countries and 70 languages. TPRF’s humanitarian activities are entirely supported by voluntary contributions and the sale of related materials. As a private investor, he supports himself and his family through independent means. [11]
I removed the paragraph about Rawat's investments from the "Other Aspects" section. For one thing, the two sources were not independent: Cagan (as discussed elsewhere) and the maharaji.org website. More importantly, it's just not encyclopedic to discuss an author/speaker's investment strategy. Unless you are famous for your investments (e.g. Warren Buffet, Paul Allen), why would we include it? To pick an example, Tom Peters is a writer/speaker specializing in business, for heaven's sake, and his article does not discuss his investments.
In this case, where Rawat's wealth and lifestyle and the source of his income are controversial, it constitutes an original research argument ( WP:SYN if you accept the sources) rebutting the claim attributed to Mishler in the criticism section that money was diverted to Rawat. I don't believe this rebuttal belongs in the article at all, but if it is determined to belong, it clearly should be in the Criticism section. Msalt ( talk) 20:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
might be expected to enrich their founders. If that is happening it is a perversion of the laws as they pertain to non-profit organisations and clearly wrong-doing. There are no grounds for suggesting Prem Rawat is guilty of this. Guilt by association again. Rumiton ( talk) 02:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 16:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
What kind of bizzare resonse is that ? You asked What is the problem with that? and quoted a source. I replied with an explanation of what is wrong - and an assessment of the Source you gave. So if I reply in terms you don't like I'm breaking the rules ? If I assess a Source that you have given, as "not valid", that's advocating my opinion and in breach of WP:NOT#SOAP ? Sounds like WP:WL to me, but that's just my opinion.
-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 17:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
not to be confused with [ [21]]
The “biography” by Andrea Cagan is used a for ten references in the current article, 10.5% of the numbered footnotes.
The status of Cagan’s work is brought into question here : http://www.prem-rawat-critique.org/prem_rawat_followers_exposed.htm
From which:
"the book is in effect an ‘authorised’ biography procured by Rawat’s followers. The publisher of Peace is Possible is given as Mighty River Press which lists its address as P.O. Box 605 Dresher, PA 19025 US, its CEO’s name is given as J. Levin. No business with the name Mighty River Press is on record with the Pennsylvania State Corporations Register,[12] [22]however P.O. Box 605 Dresher, PA 19025 is given as the address of James Levin, President of a business called Neighborhood Restorations, vice President is given as Scott Mayo. The name Neighborhood Restorations appears as part of the title of a range of businesses of which the officers are James Levin and Scott Mazo.[13] [23]
An SEC filing says of Levin and Mazo:
The General Partner of the Operating Partnership is WPB L.P., a Pennsylvania limited partnership (the "General Partner") whose general partner is WPB II, Inc., a Pennsylvania corporation ("WPB II") which also serves as the Developer of the Apartment Complex. WPB II is equally-owned by James Levin and Scott Mazo. Mr. Levin, a Certified Public Accountant, has been involved with the development and syndication of tax credit projects since 1990. Mr. Mazo has been involved in the development of the tax credit projects since 1990 and commercial rental properties since the mid 1980's. Since forming a partnership in 1992, Mr. Levin and Mr. Mazo have developed over 350 units of affordable housing. Mr. Levin and Mr. Mazo are also the sole owners of Prime Property Management, Inc., a property management company which is serving as the Management Agent for the Apartment Complex. [14] [24] The name Scott Mazo appears on a FEC filing which lists Mazo as being Employed by Neighborhood Resorations, and which gives his home address as Gulph Mills.[15] [25] Scott Mazo is also the name of a Board Member and Treasurer of The Prem Rawat Foundation,[16] [26]details lodged with Guidestar give the address of Scott Mazo TPRF Board and Treasurer, as Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania.
In Summary:
James Levin is the CEO of the self described family business (Mighty River Press) i.e. Levin is the owner or is a co-owner of Mighty River Press. MRP is the publisher of the Rawat biography. Therefore Levin is, via the unregistered Mighty River Press, the publisher of Rawat’s biography.
James Levin has been the business partner of Scott Mazo for twenty years, they have more than thirty business listings in which they share partnerships.
Scott Mazo is the Treasurer of The Prem Rawat Foundation.
The relationship between Levin and Mazo undermines any suggestion that Peace is Possible has been published independently of Prem Rawat or his promoters. Its use as a reference for an encyclopedia is dubious, not because it is in effect an ‘authorised’ biography but because the ‘authorisation’ has been deliberately disguised.
End of extract
-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 11:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
No this can not be kept because it is not honest - either it IS an authorised biography, which means there should be a quotable entry in the book explaining that - or it is no more than a Vanity effort, self published by an individual who has close links to the subject, but who has deliberately obfuscated those links. Without a clear statement in the book itself about its status, it is untrustworthy. The book needs to be removed as a reference and as with any other WP article where an illegitiate source has been removed and which can not be replaced by alternative sources, the material in the article which is dependant on the removed source, will itself have to be removed. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 09:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 10:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Can we agree on treating the Cagan book as a hagiographic account, as I suggested above? Does anyone need an explanation on the meaning of the word hagiographic? (If needs, I'd try to explain further) Does anyone need further explanation on how to go about with hagiographic sources in Biographies of living persons (BLP)? If needs, we should maybe elaborate on that: WP:BLP does not contain direct information on that type of sources, as far as I can see (the division between "third party sources" and "self-published sources" is too coarse for hagiographic accounts, as they fall between these two categories of sources).
Can we also keep discussions on this page concentrated on what contributes to a better quality of the Prem Rawat article? I'd be very grateful! -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 11:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
"questions posed to him in the Griffin show about him being wealthy" – interesting, could we have anything about that in the article? Imho has the advantage also that Cahan wouldn't be the only source. Also, when there is criticism about him being wealthy, contained in the Prem Rawat article, I'd like to hear the man himself about it. Jossi, or anyone else having the book, could you give a useful excerpt? And another question, what year are we speaking for this Griffin show? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 19:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
On November 28, 1973, a few weeks after the event, Maharaji appeared on The Merv Griffin Show on television, where he fielded questions with great confidence. Merv asked him, "Are you rich?" Maharaji smiled and replied, “I am absolutely rich, the richest man in the world probably. Because you don't have to be rich in money to be rich. You have to be rich in heart." (p193)
Jossi says: The book is not reverential at all. There is plenty of controversy covered, such opposition to his father etc.
Reporting that Rawat was the subject of controversy does not really amount to fairly covering it does it? This book only comments from the perspective of Cagan (who I gather was commissioned indirectly by Rawat to write this biography - she's hardly going to write an unflattering book is she?) Fine but where in this book is the perspective of these critics represented? She did not interview any it would seem. Jossi is possibly only telling half the story when he says that Cagan covers plenty of controversy. It's kind of kind of a half-truth. I still think that this book is in effect self-published and indeed technically hagiograhical but I am not bothered by the actual use of it here so far. I just think it tells us that Rawat wants to keep control of 'the telling of his story' and this book is simply another example of how his wealth permits him to do so. I am personally uncomfortable with people who can effectively buy credibility and avoid accountability through sheer wealth. There was an occasion a few years back when an interview with Rawat appeared in a corporate glossy mag in the US. This interview was flaunted by premies I know here in the UK as some kind of proof of his credibility which bothered me...they actually believed that this magazine had approached Rawat for an interview. Out of curiosity I picked up the phone and by luck got straight through to the CO of the mag. Even I was rather taken aback to find him in a spate of intense annoyance and repentance, furious to have discovered that the entire interview was more or less fictitious in that it was a paid for 'advertorial' (apparently without his knowledge or consent), and with Q's and A's contrived and supplied by Rawat's organisation and presented falsely as a genuine interview. He told me that the standards of his paper had been, in his opinion, compromised and that the editor in question was being reprimanded. He was utterly apologetic and was at pains to say that his paper would never make the same mistake again. I put the phone down feeling rather sorry for him ...what I had suspected was evidently correct. So it's all very well painting the picture that Rawat is globally well-respected but it's rather underhand to illustrate this with examples of accolades or seemingly frank interviews which turn out to have been bought and very far from open and fair. I am not trying to engender suspicion at all. I am simply saying that Wikipedia should be careful not tolerate similar pretentiousness and that we should be on guard against this kind of self-promotion posing as proof of someone's notability.
PatW (
talk)
19:39, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with this with some reservation that this does not become the thin end of the wedge. There is quite a lot of controversial stuff in the book that (if my memory serves me well) people wanted to include which was objected to. It may have been a reference to the so-called 'hate group' of ex-premies although I don't exactly remember. PatW ( talk) 01:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, several of us are making attempts at a consensus or compromise position on this issue. From what I've seen, you are resisting these efforts without offering any counter-suggestion or even explaining why you don't agree. This makes it difficult to move forward. We need some points of agreement to build upon. Can you please clarify your position on these issues?
Do you agree there is a consensus on using the Cagan book for only non-controversial points?
Do you agree that the Cagan book has not been demonstrated to be an independent, third party source?
Do you agree that Rawat's wealth or material lifestyle is a controversial issue?
Do you agree that the source of Rawat's wealth or material lifestyle is a controversial issue?
Thank you. Msalt ( talk) 18:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Several editors have claimed that there is consensus to use the Cagan book for non controversial references. That consensus has by no means been reached.
The problem with the Cagan book is that it is not honestly presented. Is it self published ? Is it authorised ? Is it a commissioned work ? If so who commissioned it and on whose behalf ? Without clarity over its status, any reference to the Cagan book whether concerning controversial issues or not, places the referencer (in this case WP) in a dubious position. The work must at least be recommendable as a reference in its own terms, but if those terms are obscure how can it be recommendable ? [ [28]] raises an argument on this page regarding another putative source, I’m not sure that I agree with the argument, but if it is applied to one source it must be applied to all:
Well, as far as I can see, the site owners remain anonymous: [5] [6] [7] Could I sue the site owners like I could sue a publisher for publishing defamatory information? If the answer to the question is no (and I think it is), then that means the site does not have enough encyclopedic standing to be used as an external link. The reason being that whoever posts the information is not in practice prepared to vouch for its accuracy; if the same information could be found in a printed book, with a named publisher and author, it would be a different matter. -- Jayen466 00:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Although the Cagan book has a named publisher, no legal entity appears registered under the given name, and while an individual is named as the CEO of the named publisher, unless some legal entity exists, there is no functional position of CEO. Clearly Cagan is a named author but it is not clear what her status actually is. If she was commissioned by some individual to prepare material provided for publication, Cagan’s role would not be that of an orginating writer but that of a sub editor or copywriter whose own legal responsibility could be considered subordinate to the commissioning party. And the Commissioning party is entirely anonymous in which case to use Jayen466’s words whoever posts the information is not in practice prepared to vouch for its accuracy.
At the very minimum the short comings of the Cagan book as a reference must be clearly flagged in any use in Wikiedia, but even then the book should be only used where absolutely no other source is available.
-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 16:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | → | Archive 35 |
Please help in finding a way forward. There is a proposal on the table by David to start improving the article from a compromise version. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
As said, I stand with the version I reverted to, as a starting point. That is as much "on the table". -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 21:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Unilaterally reverting to a 13 month old version without discussion and in the face of considerable opposition is not the way to do it. Momento ( talk) 21:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I'll try to make permalinks to currently half-broken references (inadvertent use of citation templates) - can someone help out, I've not so much experience with these templates, nor do I exactly know how to make the best of these references:
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 21:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I fixed some and tried to consolidate all the repeated ones. I think there are more but I have no more time. David D. (Talk) 22:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Large amounts of quoted text within citations are simply not needed, at all. A simple citation will suffice, to satisfy WP:V. These large quotes should be removed from all of the citations. Cirt ( talk) 19:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
This is just pure POV. We don't qualify simple facts from sources. Do not do that again. Lawrence § t/ e 20:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
{{ editprotected}}
Requesting that what is bolded in the next quote would be removed from the end of the first sentence of the third paragraph of the intro: "[...], his emphasis was on individual, subjective experience, rather than on a body of dogma."
Reason: this part of the criticism Prem Rawat has been receiving doesn't seem prominent enough for a lead section mentioning. There's nothing about it in the Criticism section, so I think we would better be without it in the lead too. If there's consensus for this then the editprotected template may be enabled as far as I'm concerned. Tx. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Francis Schonken and I are discussing the order of the lede. Everyone is welcome to join in here. In the meantime Francis could you stop adding new material to other parts of the article its distracting. The picture of the house and the links to anti-Rawat sites will never appear in this article because they are clearly excluded by BLP. Momento ( talk) 11:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
... in this edit. That is not acceptable. Articles need to get improved, not brought up to a version that misses the hard work, research and copyediting of many editors over a period of more than one year, and that includes responses to GA reviews and peer reviews. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
"Thousands" is incorrect. I had to go back somewhat over a thousand edits. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Further,
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
See my talk page for more discussion with Francis. As a compromise to losing what I consider to be good edits I have restored the version from Feb 2008 and included the criticism paragraphs that represent the most significant consensus I could find in the history, from May 2007. I think this is the best starting point. Other version criticism can be found at Talk:Prem Rawat/criticism. I have no horses in this race other than trying to keep this article from devolving into a massive fight. David D. (Talk) 20:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, no I stand with the version I reverted to. Let's take that as a starting point. It has 129 references. The other has only three quarters so many references. Several of the references from the last year are malformed through inadvertent use of citation templates. "Bloat" is equally true of the version I reverted away, etc... -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I think there's a difference between 53 kilobytes and 83 Kilobytes, don't you? Momento ( talk)
I'm seeing a lot of disagreement about the types of sources that are acceptable, so in case this helps:
Anyway, I hope this helps a little. SlimVirgin (talk) (contribs) 20:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Please see the new note at WP:ANI/3RR by Lawrence Cohen ( talk · contribs), and the note left by the same user to Momento ( talk · contribs)'s talk page. If Momento had not violated 3RR for the first report, or the start of the second, he certainly has by now. Cirt ( talk) 20:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Janice, regarding this edit by you [1] Melton wrote that Rawat claimed to be an embodiment of God. This should be described, not toned to such a degree that it is distorted and unrecognisable. Dowton held a somewhat opposing view. Andries ( talk) 21:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Melton cite says: "DLM and Rajneeshism are comparable in that in both, the Indian guru is the central object of devotion. While in the Christian tradition the spiritual master is only an intermediate between the individual and God, standing outside their personal relation, in both these new religious movements the devotee’s relation with the guru is considered identical to his relation with God. The guru is accepted as the manifestation and personification of God. His request for total surrender and complete trust is grounded in his claim of ultimate authority derived from his godliness." Janice Rowe ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 22:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Put simply this article should tell Rawat's past as it was, not as he or his followers want to revise it. Rawat consistently spoke out of both sides of is mouth about his Divinity. That is absolutely plain from what scholars have reported. On the one hand we have Momento, even in the face of clear logical defeat, arguing again and again that Rawat ONLY denied being God (see my discussion page to see the full extent of his illogical dissembling) and on the other we have a huge weight of evidence from Rawat's own mouth and reports from the time about how he posed as God Incarnate and had no qualms whatsoever in lording it over people and worse, intimidating people with his authoritative doom-laden threats. Rawat exploited his followers subsequent awe of him to fear to control his believers just like all power-corrupted cult leaders. It's undeniable. What also needs to be clear is that he and his organisation now have money and power and use it to silence critics whenever they can. The final thing that WILL BE APPARENT when this article presents the whole story (and not just a totally biased twisted selection) is that Rawat and his organisation are at great pains to blame others (notably past followers and former incarnations of his organisation that conveniently no longer exist) for Rawat's own mistakes. A perfect example of this has been the persistence of Momento's efforts to slant quotes to give the impression that Rawat was 'misunderstood' and blameless in followers perception of him his as 'The greatest Incarnation of God ever to have trod the planet' etc.
PatW (
talk)
22:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I am delighted to see newcomers having a go at trying to storm the battlements around this article. I strongly support their efforts. However I am very disappointed to see the same Rawat supporters still being so staunchly unreasonable here. Everything newcomers are challenging them on has been done before with a lot of effort and reasoning. It's just going over the same old ground. Above there is talk of there being "disagreement about the types of sources that are acceptable". We've tried to get this agreed before. Years roll by and Momento and Jossi absolutely will not accept sources other than ones they vet. They vehemently refused to allow quotes from Rawat out of magazines printed by Divine Light Mission magazines (which Rawat was the editor-in-chief of I think) and which I and some others found in many public libraries. Outrageous isn't it? Also, read the engagements I and others had with this Momento on my discussion page (Someone called Revera really won the argument over the 'Divinity' denials but would Momento accept that and allow some of quotes to be more balanced and in context? No way. My worry is that history will repeat itself and the predominant 'premie' editors here will just wait until the new wave of editors tire of getting nowhere and then they'll revert the article. I'd stake money on that's what'll happen. PatW ( talk) 02:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
It was about a year ago that I had arguments over sources such as DLM magazines etc. Actually a Rawat follower of more integrity, who was disgusted at the revisionism here, wrote to me privately offering to send me loads of these magazines- he/she wanted to remain anonymous and approved of my attempts to straighten facts out here. Eventually I did not take up the offer preferring to attempt to get some ground rules agreed upon here, and to point out that these magazines are readily available in libraries etc. I strongly recommend looking here: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Prem_Rawat&diff=121699226&oldid=121579434 to see what a hail of panic the suggestion of even referring to such publications met. Since then I believe that a huge number of Divine Light Magazines are reproduced online. Can somebody provide a link please? The trouble is that anyone who picks quotes from them will be immediately accused of asserting a critical POV. I have no substatial time to engage here any more due to new business pressures. But I will try and help from time to time. Please do take the time to go and read that Talk page from late March/April 1997 to see what your up against and to so you hopefully are forewarned and better fore-armed in your fresh attempts to stop the rot here. PatW ( talk) 11:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
It's kind of amusing that you say that 'contradictory Rawat quotes started appearing' because that is exactly what needs clarification. The Collier quote is a good example. In the end Momento and Jossi relegated that quote to the footnotes. The specific quote being iterated at footnote no 31 in the article now:
"There are those who sincerely believe that Guru Maharaj Ji is the Lord of Creation here in the flesh to save the world. And then there are those who know him a little better than that. They relate to him in a more human way... to them he is more of a teacher, a guide, a co-conspirator in their personal pursuit of a more heavenly way of life..Guru Maharaji, though he has never made a definitive statement on his own opinion of his own divinity, generally encourages whatever view is held by the people he is with. Addressing several hundred thousand ecstatic Indian devotees, prepared for his message by a four-thousand-year cultural tradition, he declares, 'I am the source of peace in this world . . . surrender the reins of your life unto me and I will give you salvation.' On national television in the United States he says sheepishly, with his hands folded in his lap, 'I am just a humble servant of God."
As it is, the existing paragraph is carefully sculpted by the premies to give the ludicrous impression that Rawat had very little part in actually cultivating the belief in his divinity amongst followers. As is well-known and easily seen by the most cursory glance through his speeches from the time (as published in those DLM magazines I spoke of) the diametric opposite is true. From the following paragraph the impression is now given that he was more or less an innocent bystander and the stupid followers and his mother were to blame. This has been the party revisionist line for some time and Momento vociferously argued that people who believed Rawat was divine had misinterpreted his words through their own stupidity and that basically they were following their own agendas. Again absolutely the opposite was the case. ironically neither Momento or Jossi were around at that time to witness what went on. That is no excuse for revising the past and weasely implying that Rawat's followers simply adopted these ideas despite Rawat's protestations! Here's the current paragraph:
Several scholars wrote that Rawat claimed or suggested to be divine. [27][28]As a guru, he carried divine connotations for his followers, and despite Rawat's appeal to his followers to give up their beliefs and concepts, it did not prevent them from adopting a set of ideas about his divinity and the coming of a new age. Despite his denial in an interview of any belief that he was the Messiah, pre-existing millennial expectations were fostered partly by his mother, whose talks were full of references to her son's divine nature, as well as partly by Rawat himself who generally encouraged whatever view was held by people.[29][30][31]
As I said this is just going over the same old arguments nd I am pessimistic about this article changing as the followers are more committed to maintaining it to their weasely slant than others are to repeatedly take them to task over it. PatW ( talk) 18:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I hope you been having fun in my absence but a few errors seem to be creeping in. For instance, John Brauns desire to insert the name of James Randi's book into the text when no other book is mentioned is unacceptable. Momento ( talk) 21:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Levine's book, Page 96, mentions only Hare Krishna, Unification Church, And Children of God, in the context of the citation. I can provide a full citation if neede. Please correct. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
A criticism by Rawat's mother is considered so important that it is quoted in the lede. Aren't we obliged to add her to the list of critics in the criticism section, so that it reads, "Prem Rawat has been criticized by his mother, religious scholars, individuals related to anti-cult movements, articles in the press and media, and former members". Momento ( talk) 21:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
FYI,
Declaration of intent ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I was very pleased to see the number of editors in the COI debate who said the simple "Show me the evidence". It's very easy to say something but an entirely different thing to prove it. From long observation of your involvement here and other articles I have always found your editing honest and proper. Momento ( talk) 22:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm reading and that's the impression I get. I see incivility and hostility. Some of you editors should take this up and not allow yourselves to be trampled. -- Pax Arcane 02:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Needs to be summarized, as it stands it is way to long amd contains editorializing that is not needed. The mention of the Vice-president of India, would be a good addition, as India is the second most populous country, and the most populous democracy in the world. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
How is the best way to incorporate all the comments contained in Wiki quote. Momento ( talk) 00:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I still think that these two sections "Honors" and "Praise" need to be summarized and collapsed into one. Also, I do not believe that is best for NPOV to have separate sections on "Honors" and on "Criticism". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 12:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I just want to remind people about a discussion that might have got lost in the noise, see Talk:Prem_Rawat#Semi-arbitrary_break above.
You will also notice the absence of praise. WQe will need to include an honors section like here [ [3]]. And there's ample material here [ [4]] to include. Momento ( talk) 19:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm a bit confused, The Dalai Lama, section is "Awards and honors" not praise. Are they really equivalent? I looked at the Wikiquote about Prem_Rawat section but I only noticed one keys to the city award, most seem to be spoken praise. I see no reason to have some praise but awards are more concrete. Praise is often given out disingenuously, awards probably less so. David D. (Talk) 20:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- I found these here [ [5]] .Resolutions, proclamations ...(cut list for clarity)........Television Channels for Words of Peace, a weekly series featuring excerpts from Prem Rawat's message of peace. Momento ( talk) 22:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how notable resolutions and proclamations are, but a key to a city is probably worth noting. An award for a TV program? Letters of appreciation? Feel free to add them but i think they will look like a parody of a normal award and honors section from a wikipedia article. What about honorary degree's from presitigious universities? David D. (Talk) 22:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- PS. I'm not really thinking these honors should be included. I just want to illustrate the point that there are two sides to every story. People seemed to be outraged that followers of Rawat might edit this article. The fact that people who hate Rawat might edit is fine. I believe the best article sticks to facts provided by unbiased and independent experts. Momento ( talk) 22:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I would reiterate, are we really going to document every minor award? Parody still comes to mind when compared with similar sections in other articles, this alone should be good reason not to have such a stand alone section. David D. (Talk) 17:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Words of Peace (WOP) has received the "Honoris Causa" Award from the Brazilian Association of Community Television Channels for its "important contribution to imparting a culture of peace." It is the third award this international series, featuring Prem Rawat's message of peace, has received in Brazil. The program reaches 10 million viewers. [1] [2]
it is not contentious; it is not unduly self-serving; it does not involve claims about third parties; it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; there is no reasonable doubt as to who wrote it; the article is not based primarily on such sources. Momento ( talk) 03:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
... refactoring this page! I have asked you three times to stop. This is most unhelpful! ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed the following from the article (refs nowiki'd):
Based on his personal experience with Prem Rawat, the sociologist Stephen A. Kent described Rawat's message as "banal" in the preface of his book From Slogans to Mantras, and later summarized the criticism of him in the 1970s by the countercultural left.<ref name="Kent2001">[[Stephen A. Kent|Kent, Stephen A.]] ''[[From Slogans to Mantras|From slogans to mantras: social protest and religious conversion in the late Vietnam war era]]'', Syracuse University press, 2001, ISBN 0-8156-2948-6 </ref>
I don't understand the point of this statement in the article. Why should it matter that a single person thought that Rawat's message was commonplace and pedestrian? If Kent later summarized criticism of Rawat by the countercultural left of 70s, why not report on those criticisms? Simply saying that Kent summarized it is saying little more than "criticism exists". Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vassyana ( talk • contribs) 21:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Couldn't agree more Vassyana. Kent went to one talk by Rawat and made his judgement. If his opinion is so important why not add some more of his jewels - " Consequently, I could not fathom what so many of my peers found inspiring about this kid, and I was wholly unprepared for what happened after the presentation concluded. Riding home with a friend that evening in the back seat of a car, I listened incredulously as my companions spoke glowingly about the message that they had just received. In fact, they were so moved by the guru's words that they made tentative plans to return the next day". Momento ( talk) 21:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't have an scholastic info. Lots of personal anecdotes from SA premies who were rounded up and harassed. There's a bit in Cagan's book about a premie(s) being jailed and tortured. Momento ( talk) 22:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
@Vassyana: you put the Kent reference back in, but forgot to link to the Wikipedia article we have about that book.
Note that the Kent quote was moved yesterday from the criticism section to the place where you removed it: if I remeber well, Memento moved, saying that was the appropriate place.
@All: No, I don't think we're still going to play the game of removing quotes from the article on "why should it matter [..]", "throwaway opinion", "[I have no argument]", "the author has a different background" etc reasons. That period has afaik finished.
I'm going to put the Kent quote back in, with the book and its author properly linked, but without the for most readers probably rather obscure "countercultural left" part – at least, for that part readers would need to see links that are not given in the article. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 23:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I've found a better reference that addresses the issue. So, this should be moot. Vassyana ( talk) 23:29, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The norm (I analyzed four weeks of Main Page articles, in November 2007) for the hybrid Harvard-style footnotes and references used in this article is:
(a) In the Footnotes section, provide only enough information (author last name and title of work, for example, or - more commonly, author and year of publication) for the reader to find the source in the References section. [The Footnotes section should also includes page number(s) and - arguably, sometimes - a quotation, of course.]
(b) In the References section, provide full information about the source (year of publication, publisher, ISBN, etc.)
That's not what is being done here - instead, the full citation is appearing in both the Footnotes and the References section. If everything the reader needs to know is in the Footnotes section, then the References section is simply duplication, and should be deleted. (Sources not actually cited in a footnote would be moved to a new, "Further Reading" section.) Alternatively, the information in the Footnotes section should be shortened, as is the norm for Harvard-style citations, with the reader, where interested, expected to check the References section for full details. -- John Broughton (♫♫) 12:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
OK Momento, care to explain the reason you took down Hunts comments? Do you want to explain what was flawed about the text? Until you do, this is the fourth thing that I will keep putting back up. Onefinalstep ( talk) 14:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
OK, Momento, how would you like this paraphrased? Please give an example and we can try and work it out. Onefinalstep ( talk) 16:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Four deliberate distortions of Hunt's comment in only two sentences. But this info that Rawat was "supported by his followers" is undue weight since it has already been covered in the article with "Rawat became financially independent as a result of contributions from his Western devotees". I hope this makes clear the level of accuracy and NPOV that is expected in this article. And please note, I am not going to spend my time repairing other editors distorted and inappropriate edits. I'm going to delete them. Momento ( talk) 22:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so the main problem is:
Deleting distorted summaries is "helpful, productive, collaborative, and necessary". Here's another example Onefinalstep says "so that we make clear that Hunt only says that Rawat "appears" to live an opulent lifestyle". No, onefinalstep, Hunt doesn't say that he says "critics have focused on what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers". Hunt is reporting what the critics are doing, it is not his opinion. Momento ( talk) 23:18, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The point that Momento makes is a valid one. Hunt is not making statements about Rawat. That is, he is not claiming that Rawat did certain things, he is simply reporting that other people have said that Rawat did or said this. As a result, his research does not verify anything about Prem Rawat, it simply verifies that some critics said certain things. Big, big difference. It is simply a question of accuracy. If sources are going to be used, then they have to be used in an appropriate manner. Their findings can't be changed to suit the desires of a particular person to wish that they had said something different. Armeisen ( talk) 07:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This recent edit [6]: The quote from Hunt reads (Alternative Religions: A Sociological Introduction (2003), pp.116-7, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. ISBN 0-7546-3410-8):
Leaving his more ascetic life behind him, he does not personally eschews material possessions. Over time, critics have focused on what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers.
... but the text in the article editorializes this as: Rawat also turned away from asceticism, no longer denouncing material possessions, and, in fact, appeared to begin enjoying the material life that could be had in the western world. This transformation was funded in part by donations from the many follwers that he had collected. Please correct by staying close to the source and by using better grammar. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This is how the sentence stands now: (I think we should replace the word "denounced" with "shunned" as shun is a synonym of eschew.) Onefinalstep ( talk) 05:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Your suggestion is completely OR. And even an accurate quote doesn't belong in the "Westernization" section. And since Rawat being funded by followers is already mentioned in the "Coming of Age" section it doesn't bear repeating. Momento ( talk) 05:52, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
So Jossi, what exactly is your problem with it?? I don't understand man, you have to come with something better than "thats not what Hunt says". Onefinalstep ( talk) 02:52, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, Momento just arbitrarily deleted the Hunt paraphrase with no comment again. I gave him ample time to rewrite the Hunt article and even asked him to choose the words that needed to be changed (please see the "First Hunt Thread" section above on this page). He ignored my requests and simply did not respond. So, I rewrote it with his concerns in mind and placed the sentence back into the article. Then jossi complained about the grammar, which I tried to fix (haven't heard anything negative about it yet). Jossi also mentioned he was concerned with the source not being paraphrased accurately, and I responded that I had sourced the two claims with two different sources (I think he might have thought I attributed the money from followers to Hunt). In response to the deletion by Momento, I reverted (He didn't say why he deleted it except "per discussion" which I don't understand because, as I'm sure you all agree, we haven't come to a consensus on anything yet ... and in fact I am responding to the concerns so far so it's a fluid situation. Before I reach another 3RR, which I will before Momento does (even though I'm not sure he cares), can someone other than me politely tell him to wait till we sort this out? Onefinalstep ( talk) 05:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Just for the record, this is my comment from two days ago. Onefinalstep claims Hunt says:
"Prem Rawat turned away from asceticism, no longer denouncing material possessions. Critics alleged that his "opulent lifestyle" was largely supported by the donations of followers."
What Hunt actually said was - "Leaving his more ascetic life behind him, he does not personally eschews material possessions. Over time, critics have focused on what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers." Hunt doesn't says "he "no longer denounced material possessions", Hunt says "he does not personally eschew material possessions". Hunt doesn't say "critics alleged", Hunt says "critics have focused on". Hunt doesn't say "his opulent lifestyle", Hunt says "what appears to be his opulent lifestyle". And finally Hunt doesn't say "Rawat was largely supported by his followers", Hunt says" the critics argue that he was supported largely by his followers". Four deliberate distortions of Hunt's comment in only two sentences. But this info that Rawat was "supported by his followers" is undue weight since it has already been covered in the article with "Rawat became financially independent as a result of contributions from his Western devotees". I hope this makes clear the level of accuracy and NPOV that is expected in this article. And please note, I am not going to spend my time repairing other editors distorted and inappropriate edits. I'm going to delete them. Momento ( talk) 05:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Momento, I do not think that your last edits work that well: [7], mainly because unless there is some common ground found between editors actively working on the article, this will be a ping-pong effort with no traction towards a stable article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I've made an attempt to revise the statements to better reflect the source. [8] In the process, I removed Price from the reference tag, as she does not discuss his lifestyle. Vassyana ( talk) 10:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
May I ask those having a copy of these books to check whether the indicated page numbers are correct. The quote to the Cagan book refers to this footnote currently in the article: [9] (see also above: #Status of “Peace Is Possible”, where this quote is discussed). May we assume that quote is correct? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 10:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)Rawat also turned away from asceticism, no longer eschewing material possessions.(Hunt2003 p117) Rawat came to considerable wealth through donations(Cagan2007 pp.218-19) (Hunt2003 p117) and investments(Cagan2007 pp.218-19).
Not only that, but the "gifts" section of the former paraphrase was supported by a good reference. "According to critics" should not be inserted, because the living situation is verifiable by more than his critics views. The reference supporting the "donations" is sound. The rewrite should be reverted until consensus. I will concede that perhaps there should be a reference that after the gifts, he made good investments to continue his lifestyle. But this is covered in other sections. If you guys need to include it, that is fine, just don't rewrite without consideration. Onefinalstep ( talk) 01:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I propose that Momento is blocked for a short period from editing this article. Yet again, today, he has taken it upon himself to continue to delete a statement that is in discussion here and without comment. He has consistently done this, and refused to reach any consensus with the other editors here. The sentence is reasonable, and being discussed for concerns. I think Momento's actions on this and other areas of the article should show a clear reason for this action. Onefinalstep ( talk) 21:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
This discussion page has quite literally become the length of a book! 50,000 words = a 200 page pocket book. Is it time for an archive of sections that haven't been updated in a few days, or at least a clean up and consolidation of duplicated material? 82.44.221.140 ( talk) 15:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I just had a look at User:MiszaBot/Archive HowTo. How about setting up Miszabot with these variables:
{{User:MiszaBot/config |algo = old(7d) |archive = Talk:Prem_Rawat/Archive_%(counter)d |counter = 29 |maxarchivesize = 250K }}
Anyway I also saw someone started archiving, and some sections are going to be brought back by me, for unconcluded discussions, or discussions continued in other sections, that pre-suppose the older section still to be at hand (note that I objected to fragmentation of discussion - scattering the fragments over multiple pages is still less useful). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:13, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
{{User:MiszaBot/config |algo = old(5d) |archive = Talk:Prem_Rawat/Archive_%(counter)d |counter = 29 |maxarchivesize = 200K }}
(BTW, you had archived a section which was still edited yesterday ( #Concern regarding place/time incoherence of references) - no hard feelings, just an argument to have this handled "neutrally" by bot.)
But on the 7 days I think we agree. Any one else second thoughts? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
In my proposal I used the "default" of 250K, as it is in the example of the bot's "how-to" page. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 20:46, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
I would like to collapse several threads that are dealing with the same issue into one section each respectively, with subsections as appropriate. Main categories that could be stagnate: "The Photo", "The Lede", "Hunt", "Kissing of Feet", "Time Article", "References", and all the discussion over the article about Jossi, his statement of purpose, and everyone's comments who were "disturbed".
I've regrouped recent talk about the Criticism section below under #Discussion on "Criticism" section from 8 February 2008 -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 11:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Previous discussion can be found (for instance) at:
(and other sections of Archive 28)
I've regrouped the "Criticism section" talks from 8 February 2008 here, as the time sequence of these sections had become disturbed, but primarily to avoid their general scattering (leading, for instance, to redundant repeats of same arguments). -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 11:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Now I'm definitely going to revert to the late January 2007 version: that version had a "reception" section (not a "criticism" section), containing positive as well as negative criticism, completely conforming to the recommendations of Wikipedia:Criticism, the "criticism" maintenance template can go in the same revert. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 23:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I have to say I'd prefer to improve what we currently have here rather than revert back a year. The GA review improved the Jan version significantly. Do we really want to lose those good edits? David D. (Talk) 00:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Regarding David D.'s opinion, see also this conversation:
[...] I still defend the version I reverted to [...] -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC) [10]
[...] what you suggest might well be best. [...] David D. (Talk) 17:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC) [11]
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 18:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't have a position or stake in this controversy, and am encouraged by the direction of the most recent changes. So, moving forward, I have some suggestions for relatively minor edits in the Criticism section for clarity and readability.
1) 3rd paragraph (starting with "Kranenborg") -- can we give him a first name, and a brief description of who he is or what his credentials are? Ditto Melton in the 6th paragraph. Is Kranenborg speaking as a Christian leader to an explictly Christian audience? The wording implies so; it might be useful to say so if true or reword if not.
2) The 4th paragraph (Stephen Kent) is awkwardly worded. I bet it was Kent's comment about Rawat that was in the preface of his book, not his experience with him as is written. "on him in the 1970s" would more typically be phrased as "of him...". "described" vs. "treats" is a tense mismatch. Here's a proposed rewrite: "Based on his personal experience with Prem Rawat, the sociologist Stephen A. Kent described Rawat's message as "banal" in the preface of his book "From Slogans to Mantras", and later summarized criticism of him in the 1970s by the countercultural left.[12]"
3) Last paragraph -- "An author initiated in Knowledge" -- Why not use the name, which appears to be Jeanne Messer? Also, "initiated in Knowledge" seems unnecessarily jargony. I don't know exactly what being "initiated" means or entails. How about "Jeanne Messer, an author trained in Rawat's meditation techniques,..." (or Knowledge techniques, or Knowledge system)? Msalt ( talk) 08:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I realize that I have the actual power to edit this section without a Talk page discussion, but given the heat surrounding this page in general and this section in particular, I think it's a better idea for me to wait until tomorrow at least before going ahead with these, though I consider them content-neutral. Msalt ( talk) 09:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Now that we've cleared up the issue of the photo and the links, it's time to clear up the criticism section. BLP policy is clear = "Be careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one". It is obviously disproportionate to give each critic a paragraph since nowhere else in this article is any other source quoted at length. So I will summarize the criticism. Momento ( talk) 10:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I've treated this section like the rest. That is summarizing the scholars rather than quoting at length. Momento ( talk) 10:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I am fine with a Praise section as long as the criticism section gets the same respect. Onefinalstep ( talk) 16:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Alright, here is a paragraph that is being deleted over and over. Lets try and work this one out here on the discussion. Momento, please detail your problems with this entry and be specific.
Per the above #Re._.7B.7Bcriticism-section.7D.7D, but I'll give it more respect to the non-footnoted sections. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Francis, your last edit removed some material that was being discussed, and about which sources were being found. For example, see Talk:Prem_Rawat#Sources_2 ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
What is going on, Francis? Your input here is welcome, but doing this for the third time is not helpful. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:46, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe I said above that I think Francis is right in this matter. Relata refero ( talk) 23:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
As has been remarked above (in a section on another topic), it's not such a geat idea for things that already have a separate section on this talk page, to just ignore it and start another section on the same topic — especially when the discussion in the previously existing section is still active.
For instance, Jossi's revert (the one I re-reverted) is already discussed above in #Re._.7B.7Bcriticism-section.7D.7D. The criticism section is a problem, see for instance also above #Criticism section. The version I reverted to doesn't have that problem. And solved the problem far better than the solutions proposed above at #Criticism section. And I explained why in the section some sections above that section, #Re._.7B.7Bcriticism-section.7D.7D, and there I also explained how I would act to address that problem. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 18:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Please not that has been discussed already years ago and then I argued that criticisms and praise from relevant experts in the field is okay in the article. An analogy, if George W. Bush likes the star wars movie then we do not mention his in the article star wars because he is not relevant expert in the field or a notable journalistic soource. Andries ( talk) 21:23, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
While we're integrating sections, the "personal life" section seems unnecessary. Is there a point to the section that I don't understand? Isn't the whole article about his life? We mention Rawat's arrival to the U.A. chronologically, so why wait to the end to mention his citizenship? We mention family relations throughout, so why leave mention of his wife to the end? All of the material can be placed chronologically. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Please do not remove cited material, as happened here, which was then restored here. Discuss here. Lawrence § t/ e 19:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Well let's hope we can get some more experienced editors as the Time magazines articles cited are from after Rawat came to the West and therefore don't belong in the section Cirt puts them. [8] [9]. Momento ( talk) 19:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
"don't belong in the section Cirt puts them" - I did not "put" anything there. It was already there. I was merely undoing Momento ( talk · contribs)'s removal of cited information, that he had removed with a blatantly false edit summary. Cirt ( talk) 19:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
This latest series of edits by Momento ( talk · contribs) seems to use selective quoting in a weasel wording style, and also removed one of the 2 TIME citations, again. Cirt ( talk) 20:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I thought there must have been another Time magazine intended since the ones cited clearly said 1972 and 1975. Please be more careful. Momento ( talk) 20:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Please be consistent Lawrence. You said "That's a house keeping task then, to move it to a different section." and so I moved the cite to the appropriate section. Now you're complaining about it and have put a quote about Rawat in the US into the section of Rawat in India. My head's spinning. Momento ( talk) 20:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Is it possible for inclusion? -- Pax Arcane 02:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Can some regular editors add relevant material from the following references to the article ?
I am editing the Coming of Age section because it contains unnecessary and non-encyclopedic detail, specifically, a list of a dozen cities Rawat visited on his 1980 tour. Before reverting this edit again, please justify why this detail belongs in the article. I know of no other comparable speakers that receive this kind of treatment in Wikipedia or any other encyclopedia; compare Tom Peters, Robert Bly, Deepak Chopra, etc. Are we now going to list band tour dates in their articles? And why does it matter that Rawat spoke on "newly purchased land"? Msalt ( talk) 20:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the statement about the positive effects of meditation. It doesn't really fit into a section on Prem Rawat's teaching, and could constructively be placed in a section or a new entry on the benefits of meditation. Armeisen ( talk) 07:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Agree. Momento ( talk) 07:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I have taken out "...kissed his feet when they were in his presence". Redundant and unencyclopedic. They could not kiss his feet when they were not 'in his presence."
Jossi what do you think about this? Come on, you're kind of referee here. Why do you think someone would want to change that wording? Do you approve of this sort of logic? PatW ( talk) 12:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
PS. It's also totally transparent that Jossi pretends that he thinks your arguments to cut out the lingo are 'good' (see his mystifying non-reasoning above) because actually he supports the POV pushing you are doing. This place has more weasels per square inch than Toad Hall! It's quite dizzying. PatW ( talk) 11:25, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Even the most respected scholars (with the exception of wishful-thinking premie academic Mr Geaves) such as Mark Jurgensmeyer, are very clear that all these traditions are shot through with hypocrisy and prosaic power struggles and their books do not indulge in nostalgia or display sympathy for the beliefs of these traditions. To the contrary they generally offer de-mystifying, prosaic explanations for the sociological phenomena around this culture. I agree that we need better understanding of the Indian Cultural roots of Rawatism but I don't think that the way to go about it is to dress it up in respectable or sympathetic terms. I think it is a very bad start to be cutting out the 'informative' lingo from those times. Those times were replete with idiosyncratic colourful lingo and where they were described in such terms it should be left alone. There's nothing immature or sensationalist about retaining those descriptions - in fact it's important that you don't to try to justify or add respectability through any contrived 'mature or mellow' paraphrasing. ' PatW ( talk) 12:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I am sympathetic to the attempt to tone the language down. We are dealing with a journalistic source here. A scholar of religion with some understanding of Indian religion would probably not have written that way. There is an undeniable Western cultural bias at work in the Time article, trading on the shock factor a Western audience feels about this kind of gesture.
Now, in India, touching the feet of a respected person is an everyday gesture. It is, and that is very difficult for Westerners to "get", no big deal. It's the West that has a problem with the gesture, because to the Western mind it feels masochistic and/or sexually loaded. The gesture has no such connotations in India. Translating it into a Western context, it is roughly equivalent to a handshake combined with a polite bow or curtsey, or, in a religious context, kneeling in front of your vicar and having his hands placed on your head. Staying with the Christian context, kissing the feet might be comparable to kissing the ring of a Cardinal. The thrill of deviancy that the Western mind feels upon reading such a description, and which such a description is designed to evoke, is really the result of cultural ignorance. To want to perpetuate this kind of thrill in Wikipedia is cheap.
We are taking due care in Wikipedia to call prostitutes "escorts" when that is how they wish to be referred to. We refer to male-born transsexuals as "she", out of basic human respect for the individual. We take care to ensure that we call ethnic or religious groups by the names that they prefer to use for themselves, rather than the terms that outsiders and critics would use for them. We are certainly not in the business of filling our articles about such groups with abusive terms that have been used about them. To me, to insist on this kind of sensationalist description of another group's religious practice is also a subtle kind of abuse. It flies in the face of everything that Wikipedia is about.
It is not much different from citing a source that says "negroes have huge, protruding lips". It is true, in a way, but still abusive, stupid and disrespectful. Mutatis mutandis, I suggest the same applies here, in a religious context. So I propose we lose the cultural bias and stick with a neutral description of the actions described. -- 172.189.122.83 ( talk) ( Jayen 466) 22:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Listen Jayen, You are simply imagining that this report is offensive to premies. The fact that you and they are demonstrating offence is what is inappropriate and questionable. There is a fine line between excluding genuine criticism and unnecessary use of bigoted reports which of course one has to be aware of, but in this case it is simply not bigoted or critical. The only word which has a sensational tone is 'literally' (which is kind of superfluous). Suddenly according to all of you, saying 'when they were in his presence' is deemed a bigoted comment rather than an innocent illustrative one . Why? Furthermore to cite the expression 'Lotus Feet' is also not condescending at all. That is what premies called his feet quite openly in those days. The fact seems to be that you sympathise with the premies new-found embarassment and desire to distance themselves from this culture which they once embraced, and you are prepared to let them tone down perfectly respectful descriptions of their past here. I question that an encyclopaedia is the place to support revisionism under the guise of wanting to not offend the sensitivities of a religious group in an inappropriate way. Next you'll argue that Wikipedia shouldn't report Scientology's former teachings about UFO's and disembodied spirits ec. because it's rude to talk about things they now are shy about. An encyclopaedia should not pander to the desire of reformed religious groups or any other groups desires to change history. By citing history you are not approving or endorsing it. To cut out the word 'prostitutes' from historical quotes because the derogatory meaning is now unacceptable is absurd. Also to cut out relevant, illustrative quotes where reporters use other derogatory terms such as 'Nigger' is also doing a disservice to all. Contrary to your opinion, there is NO merit in 'toning down' the language of the past. The present is a different matter. If premies don't want to be called 'devotees' now we naturally don't do that but we should not change the language of quotes from the time that refer to 'Maharaji's devotees'. Same with escorts, transsexuals, you name it. PatW ( talk) 11:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I do take your points and can live with the wording since it is not a direct quote. Of course it would be heinous to use the quote itself and change the wording. The Guardian newspaper here in the UK would love to hear that Wikipedia administrators approve of that as there quite a bit of criticism of Wikipedia there. I suppose what bothers me is that generally the 'colour' is so rigorously toned down so as to effectively not attract interest. I want the opposite of the 'strangulation' of the article by anti-cult sentiment. I want the encyclopaedically interesting facts to be presented here that naturally attract interest to Rawat as it is a subject that I would like to see fairly discussed and yes, questioned very publicly and openly. What I do not approve of is when articles about minority religions are controlled by themselves. This article probably has historically swung from a critical bias to the opposite extreme. The trouble is with cults is that when the facts about them do become fully known then anti-cult sentiments will naturally arise - why? because the public naturally disapproval of the abuses and evils that go on behind their closed doors. So if this article does become one day 'strangled' by public reaction then I won't be so surprised. But I agree that we should start by giving Rawat a very fair chance to account for himself. (Which is effectively what is happening via his followers here). Must dash. PatW ( talk) 12:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Jayen writes:If someone does something for love, there will always be those who claim that they must have been duped and brainwashed. As though people had no riches to give, and giving always made you poorer rather than richer. But there you go.
Jayen, how many Wikipedia editors have been truly damaged by their voluntary work? How many people, on the other hand, who follow charismatic religious leaders later claim to have been damaged, or (as in the case of Jim Jones' followers) were significantly damaged? ie. they followed their leader to the grave. I hope you can see the distinction. I lovingly served Rawat from age 17, (1974) lived in his ashrams and dedicated my life to him as he recommended. My claims about the extent to which his teachings were unhealthy are well-considered and I don't appreciate the insinuation that people who make claims about having been brainwashed probably don't understand the principal that 'giving makes you richer.'
Your comment could appear very 'sweeping' and condescending towards those people who HAVE been seriously affected by their giving. I know of very genuinely motivated premies who gave their entire incomes and inheritances to Rawat and who now regret it. Others like myself simply gave our time and gave up things that Rawat recommended we should - like having a career and relationships etc. That was the rules of joining his Ashram. There are plenty of people who in retrospect feel that Rawat has actively avoided responsibility for encouraging that level of 'giving' and that modern day premies help whitewash the period during which he demanded very considerable sacrifice. The bulk of the criticism towards Rawat is from people who have discovered that there was a good deal of hypocrisy and coverup from Rawat which indicated that he was cynical towards their genuine commitments and sacrifices.
Since you confess to concern that premies are not offended here, perhaps you could extend that concern towards the victims of Prem Rawat too.
Ruminton is excited about your 'goodness'. I shouldn't be too flattered. There is nothing good if you lean towards casting criticism towards Rawat as flippant or support any viewpoint that former premies were not genuinely motivated and have missed the benefits of 'Knowledge' as a result.
PatW (
talk)
13:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Michael Dettmers' October 22 post disclosed that in order to work around Maharaji, and to be in his inner circle, a premie had to be 'X rated'. This meant that the premie had to be told that the rules that applied to ashram premies did not apply to Maharaji. In other words, Maharaji's behavior was not to be questioned and was to be kept secret. The premie had to accept this unquestioningly, and if s/he showed hesitation, they would not be allowed to serve in this capacity. Michael said that he interviewed many premies in order to determine if they met the X rated qualifications. I was very disturbed by this revelation and have pondered it repeatedly. Last night I finally understood why this information so affected me. As many of you know, I was one of the attorneys who defended Larry Layton at both of his trials -- he was the only person charged with a crime in the US related to the mass suicide at the Peoples Temple compound in Jonestown, Guyana. I learned everything there was to know about how Peoples Temple operated and how Jim Jones was able to convince his followers to administer poison to their children and then kill themselves at his command. What struck me so much about Michael's post about 'X rating' the people close to Maharaji is that this is exactly the behavior that happened in Peoples Temple with those around Jim Jones. Jones was presented to his congregation as a messianic, God-like figure, who was the embodiment of Christ, and who behaved (supposedly) in a Christ-like manner. In fact, like Maharaji, Jones drank to excess, abused drugs, had numerous mistresses amongst the congregation, perpetrated physical and emotional abuse upon those close to him and increasingly demanded larger and larger displays of devotion to him. In Maharaji's case, he demanded more ostentatious material donations as a demonstration of his followers' devotion. Jim Jones did not seek material assets -- he demanded that church members display their unquestioning dedication by carrying out his orders -- by doing things such as engaging in a physical altercation in a weaker family member in front of the entire church. Regular members of the congregation went along with these demands because they believed that Jones was living a Christ-like existence - a lie perpetuated by those closest to Jones. Those lies played a large part in why over 900 people went to Guyana and ultimately gave up their lives to Jim Jones. I can't help but see the similarity between the behavior of those closest to Jones and those close to Maharaji who were 'X rated'. Of course, Maharaji never took his flock to a remote jungle location in order to isolate them, no suicide ritual was practiced and then actually put to use. But, the way these organizations were run at the top is chillingly similar, and was designed to achieve the same result: allowing the leader to behave in a manner diametrically opposed to the rules set out for his followers, and investing those who perpetuated this lie to those below with power and prestige they would lose if they told the truth. Had those around Jones not perpetuated his lies, many people might not have followed him to the jungle and there have met their demise. In the same way, those around Maharaji who agreed to shield others from the knowledge that Maharaji did not have to play by the rules he insisted the rest of us follow on pain of forfeiting our souls, allowed people to give up their lives to ashrams and other devotional activities which were nearly the functional equivalent of suicide. People lost the best years of their lives based on this fraud. That is what I now grasp from Michael's post. I make this point because I think that it is time that the people who were and are around Maharaji realize the broad consequences in the lives of other premies of their blind devotion to Maharaji.
The sinister overtones absolutely were/are there. Sorry I simply cannot agree. There's really no hidden tactic here from me either, I swear. My inclusion of this quote was simply in response to Jayen who basically said there was no comparison with Jim Jones when there apparently was although not to the extent that Rawat advised people to kill themselves- he just advised people to surrender their lives to him. So his effect on people was admittedly not anywhere near as catastrophic - although it was arguably sometimes destructive. I should maybe add that quite a number of people suffered mental breakdowns under the pressure of his teachings. The point is that there are comparisons but not in every area. There are important differences too. However, I remembered talking to Michael Dettmers once who told me that at the time of the Jonestown tragedy there was real concern at the DLM top level not to be perceived as another similar cult. I personally observed and made the judgement that there were similar manipulative dynamics going on in Maharaji's court (as it were) and I happen to think Marianne Bachers put it very well so I quoted her. One other thing, although you keep saying the Ashram lifestyle was a choice. It really wasn't if you had surrendered your choices as Rawat recommended. The whole danger of such systems where there is a supposedly Divine person in control is that vulnerable people are subtly coerced to 'surrender' to doing what the Master recommends instead of what they want to do. Prem Rawat REPEATEDLY demonised the mechanism of following your own mind by literally saying your mind is your number one enemy. The mind, he taught, would do anything to stop you surrendering to Maharaji and the only way to not fall foul of it's wiley deceptive ways was to OBEY HIM. Prem Rawat used to scream and yell at us about the value and urgent need for us to surrender to him and the fast track way he proposed was the ashram. At one time the most common word in his speeches was 'Surrender.' Would you say that the Pied Piper who led children into a cave was innocent and it was the childrens fault for not exercising their choice in the matter? I think I should stress here that it was a significant part of the teaching of Knowledge to approach Rawat with 'the heart of a child' so from the outset one was effectively 'inspired' into abdicating one's normal adult choice mechanisms. What you are failing to acknowledge is that with Prem Rawat there were enormous suggestions made from him as to what choices followers should make and an array of now transparently cultic power games at play, such as having a hierarchy of privileged devotees who were given another secret to keep. The X-rating thing was not as you say "public knowledge, light-hearted, and about simple confidentiality" (nobody I know knew of all this till it was later revealed on the internet and even then few could bear to believe it) Contrary to what you suggest it was absolutely effective in concealing behaviours which Rawat knew would be potentially confusing to premies. Also I personally think that being sworn to secrecy is key to the way the whole Knowledge/Master thing works. Knowledge being the most obvious precious secret that all premies promise not to reveal. Having guarded secrets makes people feel special and also creates ties to the person to whom the promise of secrecy is sworn. And, as we well know (and that is supported by Colliers book which is used here) Prem Rawat spoke out of both sides of his mouth about his Divinity depending on who he was addressing...To reporters he would say "I am not God' whilst he would dress up as Krishna in front of premies and say stuff like 'Guru is greater than God . If you want to be proved wrong on this I would be happy to do so on my talk page BUT if you go there you will see I have already had this argument with Momento there who so conspicuously lost the argument it's not really worth going there again in my opinion. PatW ( talk) 19:56, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh and...partly why I write so much back at people here is because some of the arguments that are thrown my way appear to me so tortuous and inaccurate that to not make some attempt to clarify would be simply immoral. I cannot bear to see the wrong impression being given. This article purports to report on a large part of my life which was inextricably tied up with Rawat and which I see here being falsely represented. Maybe I should just leave it to you guys to argue with truly impartial types. To be frank they seem to be doing a much better job of separating fact from fiction than any ex-premies have ever done. Hooray. Obviously Jossi and now you find my honest comments utterly unwelcome. PatW ( talk) 20:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm wondering why, before I just added the word, there was not a single instance of the word "cult" in the article main body (it appeared only in references) despite repeated and numerous media references to the movement as a cult, or in the context of a cult? Lawrence § t/ e 15:41, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Section one surveys the broad range of issues surrounding the topic of "cults" (note the scare quotes), the popular label given to alternative religions [...] a number of false stereotypes exists about them. [...] Section II discusses approximately twenty of the older, more established nonconventional religions. Section III gives an in depth treatment of the prominent and growing New Age Movement. [...] Section IV is the heart of the volume. It discuses sixteen of the most significant "new" religions which have emerged in America. (Introduction)
The term "cult" is a pejorative label used to describe certain religious groups outside the mainstream of Western religions. [...] Social scientists tend to be the least pejorative in their use of the term. They divide religious groups into three categories,: churches, sects, and cults. [...]Cults represent a force of religious innovation within a culture. (Section 1, p.1)
I object to this edit. It removes content that does not need to be removed. The edit summary says "removed excessive, unnecessary and non-encylcopedic detail". If you believe so, please discuss. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Discussion above has shown this info to be both controversial, disputed, and as it is only sourced to self-referential, self-published sources as discussed above, it should not be in the article. That is, unless it could be sourced to some better WP:RS/ WP:V secondary sources not affiliated heavily with the subject of the article himself. Cirt ( talk) 16:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I think it is highly unbalanced, to say the least, to report Mishlers - admittedly unsupported - appraisal of a predominantly money-grabbing leadership in the "Critisism"-section, simultaneously deleting Cagan's statement on the origin of Rawat's income, calling it contentious, while casually overlooking the fact, that Rawat does not charge people for being taught the techniques of Knowledge, or seeing him at a program. Not only unbalanced, but plainly manipulative, hopefully unintentionally. Please respond, whoever.-- Rainer P. ( talk) 20:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
This issue is being discussed in the section #Did Donations Make Him Rich. Please discuss this up there. I will quote your comment in that section and reply there. Msalt ( talk) 21:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see the necessity to move to another section, as it is being discussed here. And I do not feel my observation has been responded to. I rather feel slightly patronized. Anyway thanks for trying.-- Rainer P. ( talk) 22:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I can't find anything there that relates to my request. Is it yet possible that you do can not communicate? Amazing experience! Is there anybody else out there?-- Rainer P. ( talk) 08:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Does Maharaji benefit from the activities of any of the organizations promoting his message? No. Most of the organizations promoting his message are non-profit and by law cannot provide a financial benefit to Maharaji or any other individual. The financial records of these organizations are impeccable in this regard, and absolutely no money flows from these organizations to him or his family. He receives no benefit from the activities of the not-for-profit organizations supporting his work and no income from attendance at his addresses nor from the sale of materials.He supports himself and his family through private means. [10]
The dissemination of his message of peace is made available in more than 90 countries and 70 languages. TPRF’s humanitarian activities are entirely supported by voluntary contributions and the sale of related materials. As a private investor, he supports himself and his family through independent means. [11]
I removed the paragraph about Rawat's investments from the "Other Aspects" section. For one thing, the two sources were not independent: Cagan (as discussed elsewhere) and the maharaji.org website. More importantly, it's just not encyclopedic to discuss an author/speaker's investment strategy. Unless you are famous for your investments (e.g. Warren Buffet, Paul Allen), why would we include it? To pick an example, Tom Peters is a writer/speaker specializing in business, for heaven's sake, and his article does not discuss his investments.
In this case, where Rawat's wealth and lifestyle and the source of his income are controversial, it constitutes an original research argument ( WP:SYN if you accept the sources) rebutting the claim attributed to Mishler in the criticism section that money was diverted to Rawat. I don't believe this rebuttal belongs in the article at all, but if it is determined to belong, it clearly should be in the Criticism section. Msalt ( talk) 20:15, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
might be expected to enrich their founders. If that is happening it is a perversion of the laws as they pertain to non-profit organisations and clearly wrong-doing. There are no grounds for suggesting Prem Rawat is guilty of this. Guilt by association again. Rumiton ( talk) 02:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 16:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
What kind of bizzare resonse is that ? You asked What is the problem with that? and quoted a source. I replied with an explanation of what is wrong - and an assessment of the Source you gave. So if I reply in terms you don't like I'm breaking the rules ? If I assess a Source that you have given, as "not valid", that's advocating my opinion and in breach of WP:NOT#SOAP ? Sounds like WP:WL to me, but that's just my opinion.
-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 17:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
not to be confused with [ [21]]
The “biography” by Andrea Cagan is used a for ten references in the current article, 10.5% of the numbered footnotes.
The status of Cagan’s work is brought into question here : http://www.prem-rawat-critique.org/prem_rawat_followers_exposed.htm
From which:
"the book is in effect an ‘authorised’ biography procured by Rawat’s followers. The publisher of Peace is Possible is given as Mighty River Press which lists its address as P.O. Box 605 Dresher, PA 19025 US, its CEO’s name is given as J. Levin. No business with the name Mighty River Press is on record with the Pennsylvania State Corporations Register,[12] [22]however P.O. Box 605 Dresher, PA 19025 is given as the address of James Levin, President of a business called Neighborhood Restorations, vice President is given as Scott Mayo. The name Neighborhood Restorations appears as part of the title of a range of businesses of which the officers are James Levin and Scott Mazo.[13] [23]
An SEC filing says of Levin and Mazo:
The General Partner of the Operating Partnership is WPB L.P., a Pennsylvania limited partnership (the "General Partner") whose general partner is WPB II, Inc., a Pennsylvania corporation ("WPB II") which also serves as the Developer of the Apartment Complex. WPB II is equally-owned by James Levin and Scott Mazo. Mr. Levin, a Certified Public Accountant, has been involved with the development and syndication of tax credit projects since 1990. Mr. Mazo has been involved in the development of the tax credit projects since 1990 and commercial rental properties since the mid 1980's. Since forming a partnership in 1992, Mr. Levin and Mr. Mazo have developed over 350 units of affordable housing. Mr. Levin and Mr. Mazo are also the sole owners of Prime Property Management, Inc., a property management company which is serving as the Management Agent for the Apartment Complex. [14] [24] The name Scott Mazo appears on a FEC filing which lists Mazo as being Employed by Neighborhood Resorations, and which gives his home address as Gulph Mills.[15] [25] Scott Mazo is also the name of a Board Member and Treasurer of The Prem Rawat Foundation,[16] [26]details lodged with Guidestar give the address of Scott Mazo TPRF Board and Treasurer, as Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania.
In Summary:
James Levin is the CEO of the self described family business (Mighty River Press) i.e. Levin is the owner or is a co-owner of Mighty River Press. MRP is the publisher of the Rawat biography. Therefore Levin is, via the unregistered Mighty River Press, the publisher of Rawat’s biography.
James Levin has been the business partner of Scott Mazo for twenty years, they have more than thirty business listings in which they share partnerships.
Scott Mazo is the Treasurer of The Prem Rawat Foundation.
The relationship between Levin and Mazo undermines any suggestion that Peace is Possible has been published independently of Prem Rawat or his promoters. Its use as a reference for an encyclopedia is dubious, not because it is in effect an ‘authorised’ biography but because the ‘authorisation’ has been deliberately disguised.
End of extract
-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 11:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
No this can not be kept because it is not honest - either it IS an authorised biography, which means there should be a quotable entry in the book explaining that - or it is no more than a Vanity effort, self published by an individual who has close links to the subject, but who has deliberately obfuscated those links. Without a clear statement in the book itself about its status, it is untrustworthy. The book needs to be removed as a reference and as with any other WP article where an illegitiate source has been removed and which can not be replaced by alternative sources, the material in the article which is dependant on the removed source, will itself have to be removed. -- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 09:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 10:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Can we agree on treating the Cagan book as a hagiographic account, as I suggested above? Does anyone need an explanation on the meaning of the word hagiographic? (If needs, I'd try to explain further) Does anyone need further explanation on how to go about with hagiographic sources in Biographies of living persons (BLP)? If needs, we should maybe elaborate on that: WP:BLP does not contain direct information on that type of sources, as far as I can see (the division between "third party sources" and "self-published sources" is too coarse for hagiographic accounts, as they fall between these two categories of sources).
Can we also keep discussions on this page concentrated on what contributes to a better quality of the Prem Rawat article? I'd be very grateful! -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 11:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
"questions posed to him in the Griffin show about him being wealthy" – interesting, could we have anything about that in the article? Imho has the advantage also that Cahan wouldn't be the only source. Also, when there is criticism about him being wealthy, contained in the Prem Rawat article, I'd like to hear the man himself about it. Jossi, or anyone else having the book, could you give a useful excerpt? And another question, what year are we speaking for this Griffin show? -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 19:54, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
On November 28, 1973, a few weeks after the event, Maharaji appeared on The Merv Griffin Show on television, where he fielded questions with great confidence. Merv asked him, "Are you rich?" Maharaji smiled and replied, “I am absolutely rich, the richest man in the world probably. Because you don't have to be rich in money to be rich. You have to be rich in heart." (p193)
Jossi says: The book is not reverential at all. There is plenty of controversy covered, such opposition to his father etc.
Reporting that Rawat was the subject of controversy does not really amount to fairly covering it does it? This book only comments from the perspective of Cagan (who I gather was commissioned indirectly by Rawat to write this biography - she's hardly going to write an unflattering book is she?) Fine but where in this book is the perspective of these critics represented? She did not interview any it would seem. Jossi is possibly only telling half the story when he says that Cagan covers plenty of controversy. It's kind of kind of a half-truth. I still think that this book is in effect self-published and indeed technically hagiograhical but I am not bothered by the actual use of it here so far. I just think it tells us that Rawat wants to keep control of 'the telling of his story' and this book is simply another example of how his wealth permits him to do so. I am personally uncomfortable with people who can effectively buy credibility and avoid accountability through sheer wealth. There was an occasion a few years back when an interview with Rawat appeared in a corporate glossy mag in the US. This interview was flaunted by premies I know here in the UK as some kind of proof of his credibility which bothered me...they actually believed that this magazine had approached Rawat for an interview. Out of curiosity I picked up the phone and by luck got straight through to the CO of the mag. Even I was rather taken aback to find him in a spate of intense annoyance and repentance, furious to have discovered that the entire interview was more or less fictitious in that it was a paid for 'advertorial' (apparently without his knowledge or consent), and with Q's and A's contrived and supplied by Rawat's organisation and presented falsely as a genuine interview. He told me that the standards of his paper had been, in his opinion, compromised and that the editor in question was being reprimanded. He was utterly apologetic and was at pains to say that his paper would never make the same mistake again. I put the phone down feeling rather sorry for him ...what I had suspected was evidently correct. So it's all very well painting the picture that Rawat is globally well-respected but it's rather underhand to illustrate this with examples of accolades or seemingly frank interviews which turn out to have been bought and very far from open and fair. I am not trying to engender suspicion at all. I am simply saying that Wikipedia should be careful not tolerate similar pretentiousness and that we should be on guard against this kind of self-promotion posing as proof of someone's notability.
PatW (
talk)
19:39, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with this with some reservation that this does not become the thin end of the wedge. There is quite a lot of controversial stuff in the book that (if my memory serves me well) people wanted to include which was objected to. It may have been a reference to the so-called 'hate group' of ex-premies although I don't exactly remember. PatW ( talk) 01:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Jossi, several of us are making attempts at a consensus or compromise position on this issue. From what I've seen, you are resisting these efforts without offering any counter-suggestion or even explaining why you don't agree. This makes it difficult to move forward. We need some points of agreement to build upon. Can you please clarify your position on these issues?
Do you agree there is a consensus on using the Cagan book for only non-controversial points?
Do you agree that the Cagan book has not been demonstrated to be an independent, third party source?
Do you agree that Rawat's wealth or material lifestyle is a controversial issue?
Do you agree that the source of Rawat's wealth or material lifestyle is a controversial issue?
Thank you. Msalt ( talk) 18:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Several editors have claimed that there is consensus to use the Cagan book for non controversial references. That consensus has by no means been reached.
The problem with the Cagan book is that it is not honestly presented. Is it self published ? Is it authorised ? Is it a commissioned work ? If so who commissioned it and on whose behalf ? Without clarity over its status, any reference to the Cagan book whether concerning controversial issues or not, places the referencer (in this case WP) in a dubious position. The work must at least be recommendable as a reference in its own terms, but if those terms are obscure how can it be recommendable ? [ [28]] raises an argument on this page regarding another putative source, I’m not sure that I agree with the argument, but if it is applied to one source it must be applied to all:
Well, as far as I can see, the site owners remain anonymous: [5] [6] [7] Could I sue the site owners like I could sue a publisher for publishing defamatory information? If the answer to the question is no (and I think it is), then that means the site does not have enough encyclopedic standing to be used as an external link. The reason being that whoever posts the information is not in practice prepared to vouch for its accuracy; if the same information could be found in a printed book, with a named publisher and author, it would be a different matter. -- Jayen466 00:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Although the Cagan book has a named publisher, no legal entity appears registered under the given name, and while an individual is named as the CEO of the named publisher, unless some legal entity exists, there is no functional position of CEO. Clearly Cagan is a named author but it is not clear what her status actually is. If she was commissioned by some individual to prepare material provided for publication, Cagan’s role would not be that of an orginating writer but that of a sub editor or copywriter whose own legal responsibility could be considered subordinate to the commissioning party. And the Commissioning party is entirely anonymous in which case to use Jayen466’s words whoever posts the information is not in practice prepared to vouch for its accuracy.
At the very minimum the short comings of the Cagan book as a reference must be clearly flagged in any use in Wikiedia, but even then the book should be only used where absolutely no other source is available.
-- Nik Wright2 ( talk) 16:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)