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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 13 February 2019 and 3 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Audentis.Fortuna.Iuvat.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 07:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
How does the article need to be leaned up? Hyacinth 11:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
FYI: Ivan Turk, the finder of the bone "flute" has published in L'Archaeolgie (2005 & 2006) the results of a study using multi-slice tomography (usually used to image various layers of the body, organs, brain functioning, etc.) The bone was imaged and the results, as Turk described them are that most, or all holes, were made before any carnivore damage. The damage had been cited, by those claiming a carnivore origin, to indicate marrow was present, but the tomography results now challenge that conclusion. Turk wrote: "...the origin of the holes on the "flute" are no longer doubtful. We believe it is sufficiently clearly shown that it is really an exceptional discovery, the oldest object which can be considered a flute, and that sooner or later, the community of the paleolithicians will have to accept it." Other recent papers this year have described the bone as a flute, and the dispute may be nearing an end in facvour of it being an artifact. -- C. Norton.
Uh, this page reads like an ad for Bob Fink, whoever that is. Here's another page from his website: http://www.greenwych.ca/cm-ad.htm . Check that out.
Hello, the term prehistory which lumps all aboriginals into its definition reveals how much it is lacking. I favor the use of the word 'primitive'. Here's an example from the art page:
"In the history of art, primitive art is an inherently overbroad category that seeks to describe all art that existed in societies that did not use agriculture as the primary way of making a living. This topic includes both the stone ages of Europe as well as the diverse aboriginal societies of which some continue to exist around the world."
"The origin of music likely stems from natural sounds and rhythms: the human heartbeat, the songs of birds, the rustling of wind through trees, the thunder and sound of rain, the dripping of water in a cave, the crackle of a burning fire and the sounds of waves breaking on a beach or bubbles in a brook[citation needed]."
Nice as it may sounds, there doesn't seem to be any possible way of knowing this. Considering that music emerged prior to recorded history, any suggestions on where the origin of music stems from is guessing at best. Perhaps if there's some emperically founded notion that the human brain (or organisms in general) are fond of "natural sounds and rhythms" then you can feel free to suggest this, but this should in no way be regarded as an acceptable statement on an encyclopedia. I'm removing it.
I move to reinstate the deleted text referred to above ("The origin of music" etc). The user did not say it was "known" that prehistoric music stems from those "natural sounds", he said it was "likely". He was not positing a scientific proof and furthermore his description does not seem in the slightest to be out-of-place in any way, or otherwise risible for any reason whatsoever. With regard to the critic's comments about what is an "acceptable statement" in an encyclopaedia, I do not accept his position in the absence of any evidence (not even Wikipedia guidelines have been cited). Therefore unless there are any reasoned objections I will reinstate the writer's comments in due course. -- Xdel 18:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Some attention might be given to the speculative, but possibly world changing theory expounded by Steven Mithen in his recent work "The Singing Neanderthals":
Music is the remnant of a precursor of the current compositional language of men. Homo ergaster, Homo heidelbergensis and Homo Neandertalensis used a Holistic, manipulative, multi-modal, musical and memetic language, which only in the Homo sapiens line gave rise to the present compositional language (... and to music, of course).
This theory would merit an article on its own. Maybe I will write it soon.
Lignomontanus 05:59, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
If nobody has any reasoned objection then I move to include a section that attempts an anachronistic definition of prehistoric music in the present-day context, to reflect the diversity of present-day musical art forms. - Xdel
Regarding this:
"The Origin of Music (1970, ISBN 0-912424-06-0) claims that influence from the most audible overtones of the three most nearly universal intervals found across time & cultures (namely, a tone's octave, 4th and 5th -- or the notes Do, Fa, and Sol), will cause an evolution into the most widespread of scales as follows:
The overtones of a tonic or "Do" (using the key of C), are C, G, E, B(flat).
The note "Sol," or G, has these overtones: G, D, B, F.
The note "Fa" has these: F, C, A, E(flat). After the first 4 different overtones of any note, the remainder are inaudible to the average ear.
When all the first 3 overtones of each note (in the trio of notes listed) are placed within the range of an octave, they produce the diatonic (or the do, re, mi) scale (C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C). If the weakest two (Mi and Ti) are removed, then the pentatonic scale results (C,D, - F,G,A, - C). If the weakest ones are replaced with the last listed overtones, B(flat) and E(flat), then a harmonic minor scale is made (C, D, E-flat, F, G, A, B-flat, C). Thus the influence from the presence of these overtones, depending how many of the audible overtones are chosen, could have brought into being, over time, the most widespread scales that are known today.
A definition of what are known as the tonic, dominant or subdominant (the "trio" of tones Do, Fa and Sol), evolves because the average strengths of the audible overtones are unequal, some being louder than others. This determines over time the role & power of each note in a scale, which creates tonality (defined as a "sense of key" or "loyalty to a fundamental tonic") and creates tonal scales. The theory has received support from more recent archaeological finds (see below, next)."
I don't think this is an appropriate place to point to any particular website that's selling a book. Instead, a link should be made to Wikipedia's Trio Theory page and the vendor's link should be deleted. This is the course of action I will take at this time.
-- Xdel 18:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for removing link to website ad.
-- Xdel 21:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I've just added clean-up and Expansion templates to the article (two things that are defiantly needed). Also I think the information is somewhat incomplete, there have been many discoveries of Palaeolithic and Neolithic musical instruments (not to mention ones from the Bronze-age). For instance about 2 years ago I saw a Ray Mears documentary about the lives of Stone-age people and it featured a Palaeolithic Flute found in England (he then played a replica of it), if I remember correctly they said it was 12,000 years old (that would be older than the Chinese ones that this article says are the oldest). The museum scientist also speculated about other instruments like drums (although they didn't have any such artefacts), why is this (and other such finds) not mentioned at all? -- Hibernian 08:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Why is this discussed here? I'm not sure where it belongs, but because it is written down, it clearly is not prehistoric music, but ancient music of some sort. Rigadoun (talk) 19:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
8uyuye7rtyb uy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.230.63.244 ( talk) 13:08, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
this term is antiquated. the correct term universally accepted by linguists and child development researchers is "child directed speech". klin06 —Preceding undated comment added 15:31, 9 April 2010 (UTC).
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/7/2468.full — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.211.215.198 ( talk) 18:48, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
"...there is no clear link between music and sex..." Umm... dance? 96.127.198.180 ( talk) 03:11, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
It has been shown scientifically (easily found by googling) that various species use the rhythmic nature of sound (music) to coordinate movements, especially between large groups. So we see large flocks of birds coordinating their flight with rhythmic chirps, all turning together and changing positions. The same is true for bees passing information on with a "dance", and fish schools moving in formation, to the sounds of common rhythmic clicks. Dancing music and song are useful for preserving and passing on information, and so it was a mistake to think that music is something "above" nature, or exists only for "emotional" reasons, although this exact reasoning has been preserved in the "scientific" teachings of our age, and found its way to this article. Perhaps we need a section on the history of the scientific perception of music.
In any case, this is a call for serious wikipedians to look it up and bring together the sources for the current scientific perception of music as a natural phenomenon, NOT unique to humans, with VARIOUS evolving uses, and part of the communication system in the natural living world. פשוט pashute ♫ ( talk) 13:55, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
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Clean up template added in 2013. I see above there have been similar issues since 2005.
-- 182.239.191.250 ( talk) 18:42, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians! For the next two weeks, I will be working on this article for a project in my technical writing course. I intend to mainly focus on reorganizing the article by shifting around content, beginning with moving portions of the Archaeoacoustic methodology section to the Origin section, because I believe that some of the content would function better in this section because it contains information that would make more sense to address in the beginning of the article. Additionally, I would like to break up the content and organize it by regions of the world (Europe, Asia, North America, etc) and, possibly, further break down the content with subsections organized by countries (China, Slovenia, Ireland, Germany, etc), similar to the formatting of a related article, Prehistoric art. Most of the information that I would like to use is already present in the article, but if anyone has any knowledge on these topics that would like to assist in this endeavor, it would be greatly appreciated. Audentis.Fortuna.Iuvat ( talk) 17:07, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 03:49, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
The first few sentences talk about written evidence, if this is pre history there is no writing, the very definition of prehistory. even if they are talking about things that happened in the past they are utterly unreliable.
This passage needs rewriting and cutting. 1homerj ( talk) 11:51, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2023 and 30 November 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): SophisticatedStick ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by SophisticatedStick ( talk) 18:48, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that one or more musical audio files be
uploaded to
Wikimedia Commons and included in this article to
improve its quality. Please see
Wikipedia:Requested recordings for more on this request.
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 13 February 2019 and 3 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Audentis.Fortuna.Iuvat.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 07:08, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
How does the article need to be leaned up? Hyacinth 11:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
FYI: Ivan Turk, the finder of the bone "flute" has published in L'Archaeolgie (2005 & 2006) the results of a study using multi-slice tomography (usually used to image various layers of the body, organs, brain functioning, etc.) The bone was imaged and the results, as Turk described them are that most, or all holes, were made before any carnivore damage. The damage had been cited, by those claiming a carnivore origin, to indicate marrow was present, but the tomography results now challenge that conclusion. Turk wrote: "...the origin of the holes on the "flute" are no longer doubtful. We believe it is sufficiently clearly shown that it is really an exceptional discovery, the oldest object which can be considered a flute, and that sooner or later, the community of the paleolithicians will have to accept it." Other recent papers this year have described the bone as a flute, and the dispute may be nearing an end in facvour of it being an artifact. -- C. Norton.
Uh, this page reads like an ad for Bob Fink, whoever that is. Here's another page from his website: http://www.greenwych.ca/cm-ad.htm . Check that out.
Hello, the term prehistory which lumps all aboriginals into its definition reveals how much it is lacking. I favor the use of the word 'primitive'. Here's an example from the art page:
"In the history of art, primitive art is an inherently overbroad category that seeks to describe all art that existed in societies that did not use agriculture as the primary way of making a living. This topic includes both the stone ages of Europe as well as the diverse aboriginal societies of which some continue to exist around the world."
"The origin of music likely stems from natural sounds and rhythms: the human heartbeat, the songs of birds, the rustling of wind through trees, the thunder and sound of rain, the dripping of water in a cave, the crackle of a burning fire and the sounds of waves breaking on a beach or bubbles in a brook[citation needed]."
Nice as it may sounds, there doesn't seem to be any possible way of knowing this. Considering that music emerged prior to recorded history, any suggestions on where the origin of music stems from is guessing at best. Perhaps if there's some emperically founded notion that the human brain (or organisms in general) are fond of "natural sounds and rhythms" then you can feel free to suggest this, but this should in no way be regarded as an acceptable statement on an encyclopedia. I'm removing it.
I move to reinstate the deleted text referred to above ("The origin of music" etc). The user did not say it was "known" that prehistoric music stems from those "natural sounds", he said it was "likely". He was not positing a scientific proof and furthermore his description does not seem in the slightest to be out-of-place in any way, or otherwise risible for any reason whatsoever. With regard to the critic's comments about what is an "acceptable statement" in an encyclopaedia, I do not accept his position in the absence of any evidence (not even Wikipedia guidelines have been cited). Therefore unless there are any reasoned objections I will reinstate the writer's comments in due course. -- Xdel 18:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Some attention might be given to the speculative, but possibly world changing theory expounded by Steven Mithen in his recent work "The Singing Neanderthals":
Music is the remnant of a precursor of the current compositional language of men. Homo ergaster, Homo heidelbergensis and Homo Neandertalensis used a Holistic, manipulative, multi-modal, musical and memetic language, which only in the Homo sapiens line gave rise to the present compositional language (... and to music, of course).
This theory would merit an article on its own. Maybe I will write it soon.
Lignomontanus 05:59, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
If nobody has any reasoned objection then I move to include a section that attempts an anachronistic definition of prehistoric music in the present-day context, to reflect the diversity of present-day musical art forms. - Xdel
Regarding this:
"The Origin of Music (1970, ISBN 0-912424-06-0) claims that influence from the most audible overtones of the three most nearly universal intervals found across time & cultures (namely, a tone's octave, 4th and 5th -- or the notes Do, Fa, and Sol), will cause an evolution into the most widespread of scales as follows:
The overtones of a tonic or "Do" (using the key of C), are C, G, E, B(flat).
The note "Sol," or G, has these overtones: G, D, B, F.
The note "Fa" has these: F, C, A, E(flat). After the first 4 different overtones of any note, the remainder are inaudible to the average ear.
When all the first 3 overtones of each note (in the trio of notes listed) are placed within the range of an octave, they produce the diatonic (or the do, re, mi) scale (C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C). If the weakest two (Mi and Ti) are removed, then the pentatonic scale results (C,D, - F,G,A, - C). If the weakest ones are replaced with the last listed overtones, B(flat) and E(flat), then a harmonic minor scale is made (C, D, E-flat, F, G, A, B-flat, C). Thus the influence from the presence of these overtones, depending how many of the audible overtones are chosen, could have brought into being, over time, the most widespread scales that are known today.
A definition of what are known as the tonic, dominant or subdominant (the "trio" of tones Do, Fa and Sol), evolves because the average strengths of the audible overtones are unequal, some being louder than others. This determines over time the role & power of each note in a scale, which creates tonality (defined as a "sense of key" or "loyalty to a fundamental tonic") and creates tonal scales. The theory has received support from more recent archaeological finds (see below, next)."
I don't think this is an appropriate place to point to any particular website that's selling a book. Instead, a link should be made to Wikipedia's Trio Theory page and the vendor's link should be deleted. This is the course of action I will take at this time.
-- Xdel 18:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for removing link to website ad.
-- Xdel 21:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I've just added clean-up and Expansion templates to the article (two things that are defiantly needed). Also I think the information is somewhat incomplete, there have been many discoveries of Palaeolithic and Neolithic musical instruments (not to mention ones from the Bronze-age). For instance about 2 years ago I saw a Ray Mears documentary about the lives of Stone-age people and it featured a Palaeolithic Flute found in England (he then played a replica of it), if I remember correctly they said it was 12,000 years old (that would be older than the Chinese ones that this article says are the oldest). The museum scientist also speculated about other instruments like drums (although they didn't have any such artefacts), why is this (and other such finds) not mentioned at all? -- Hibernian 08:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Why is this discussed here? I'm not sure where it belongs, but because it is written down, it clearly is not prehistoric music, but ancient music of some sort. Rigadoun (talk) 19:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
8uyuye7rtyb uy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.230.63.244 ( talk) 13:08, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
this term is antiquated. the correct term universally accepted by linguists and child development researchers is "child directed speech". klin06 —Preceding undated comment added 15:31, 9 April 2010 (UTC).
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/7/2468.full — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.211.215.198 ( talk) 18:48, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
"...there is no clear link between music and sex..." Umm... dance? 96.127.198.180 ( talk) 03:11, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
It has been shown scientifically (easily found by googling) that various species use the rhythmic nature of sound (music) to coordinate movements, especially between large groups. So we see large flocks of birds coordinating their flight with rhythmic chirps, all turning together and changing positions. The same is true for bees passing information on with a "dance", and fish schools moving in formation, to the sounds of common rhythmic clicks. Dancing music and song are useful for preserving and passing on information, and so it was a mistake to think that music is something "above" nature, or exists only for "emotional" reasons, although this exact reasoning has been preserved in the "scientific" teachings of our age, and found its way to this article. Perhaps we need a section on the history of the scientific perception of music.
In any case, this is a call for serious wikipedians to look it up and bring together the sources for the current scientific perception of music as a natural phenomenon, NOT unique to humans, with VARIOUS evolving uses, and part of the communication system in the natural living world. פשוט pashute ♫ ( talk) 13:55, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 5 external links on Prehistoric music. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.deutschesfachbuch.de/info/detail.php?isbn=3-87909-865-4{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://www.deutschesfachbuch.de/info/detail.php?isbn=3-87909-865-4When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
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(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 02:47, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Clean up template added in 2013. I see above there have been similar issues since 2005.
-- 182.239.191.250 ( talk) 18:42, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians! For the next two weeks, I will be working on this article for a project in my technical writing course. I intend to mainly focus on reorganizing the article by shifting around content, beginning with moving portions of the Archaeoacoustic methodology section to the Origin section, because I believe that some of the content would function better in this section because it contains information that would make more sense to address in the beginning of the article. Additionally, I would like to break up the content and organize it by regions of the world (Europe, Asia, North America, etc) and, possibly, further break down the content with subsections organized by countries (China, Slovenia, Ireland, Germany, etc), similar to the formatting of a related article, Prehistoric art. Most of the information that I would like to use is already present in the article, but if anyone has any knowledge on these topics that would like to assist in this endeavor, it would be greatly appreciated. Audentis.Fortuna.Iuvat ( talk) 17:07, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 03:49, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
The first few sentences talk about written evidence, if this is pre history there is no writing, the very definition of prehistory. even if they are talking about things that happened in the past they are utterly unreliable.
This passage needs rewriting and cutting. 1homerj ( talk) 11:51, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2023 and 30 November 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): SophisticatedStick ( article contribs).
— Assignment last updated by SophisticatedStick ( talk) 18:48, 24 August 2023 (UTC)